1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: We'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: on which this podcast was produced, the Gadigel people of 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: the urination. We pay our respects to elders past and present. 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: This episode contains Ben Besant's first hand experience of the 5 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: Link Cafe siege and includes discussions of terrorism, violence, death 6 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: and PTSD. If any of these topics are triggering for you, 7 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: please give this episode a miss or seek help by 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: visiting lifelines website at lifeline dot org dot au or 9 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: by calling thirteen eleven fourteen. 10 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 2: It's December fifteenth, twenty fourteen, and a terrorist has eighteen 11 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 2: people held hostage inside the Link Cafe in the heart 12 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 2: of the Sydney CBD. A police operation is underway in 13 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 2: Martin Place in Sydney, CBD. 14 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 1: We just got some breaking news as a police operation 15 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: are underway in the heart of the city and several 16 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: police vehicles are at the scene. 17 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 2: What you're watching is live. 18 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: It's happening here in Martin Place, thirty forty meters from 19 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: We're standing. 20 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 2: Tactical Operations Unit Officer Ben Besant is in position with 21 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 2: his M four pointed directly at the target. 22 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: There are dozens and dozens of place, some very heavily 23 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: armed in helmets and care blastsuits. 24 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 2: Through the window, Ben sees the man wearing a backpack 25 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 2: stretched by its contents and two wires looping out from 26 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 2: the bottom, one black and the other red. He knows 27 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 2: the second that goes off, he and everyone around him 28 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 2: are dead. He sends off one last text to his 29 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 2: pregnant wife at home, asking for some photos of their 30 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 2: young daughter. But Ben has a job to do and 31 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 2: there's no decision to be made. He isn't leaving these hostages. 32 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 2: I'm at Middleton and this is Headgame today inside the 33 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: mind of the man brought the Link Cafe Siege to 34 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 2: a close. I am super stoked to have Ben Bezant 35 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 2: on my podcast head Game. Now. This man is a 36 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 2: man of my own heart. He was a tactical Operations 37 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 2: unit officer in the Linked Cafe Siege. Mate, We've got 38 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 2: loads to talk about. It's an absolute pleasure having you 39 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 2: on here. And like I said, mate, you are a 40 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 2: man of my own heart and I can't wait to 41 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 2: get into the thicker things. But before we do, how 42 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 2: did you get it involved with becoming part of this unit? 43 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 2: Was it always something that you you grew up with 44 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 2: was your father in the in the police force? Did 45 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 2: you have a military background? How did that happen? 46 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 3: Firstly, made a pleasure to be on this on this 47 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 3: podcast with you and quite the introduction you just gave me, 48 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 3: which is which is appreciated to start off with your questions. 49 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 3: My it was more my grandfather. He was in the 50 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 3: Royal Australian Air Force as a flight engineer. His father, 51 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 3: so my great grandfather was in the Austrai Lighthorse involved 52 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 3: in the Battle of Beersheba and stuff like that. But 53 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 3: growing up, I would say, yeah, my grandfather was a 54 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 3: huge part of my life, told me lots of stories 55 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 3: relating to his unit, war stories, all that type of thing. 56 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 3: So yeah, it always it did have an impact and 57 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 3: shaping me going forward in life. 58 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 2: I'd say, why did you choose to go police and 59 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 2: not military if the military was sort of ingrained in 60 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 2: you from a young age. 61 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 3: Yes, So I'd say after I left school, I decided 62 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 3: I was just scanning to take it easy for a 63 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 3: little while. I went and worked with my dad doing 64 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 3: excavation and a number of other jobs. I always imagine 65 00:03:54,440 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 3: just joining joining the army through school obviously wanted to 66 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 3: be in the double A F which require great deal 67 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 3: of schoolwork and aptitude in that area, which I may 68 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 3: have fallen slightly short on. So I was processing that 69 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 3: for a little while. But yeah, I always imagine I 70 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 3: joined the army. Then a good made of mine who 71 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 3: was in the police force, having a good chats to him, 72 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 3: telling us all the sort of things that they do 73 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 3: and how good it was. And still in the back 74 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 3: of my mind the whole time, I always imagined joining 75 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 3: the military. So I did. I signed up with the 76 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 3: police Force. I joined them. It wasn't fulfilling that side 77 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 3: of me, the service and the wanting to be more 78 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 3: military based, so I did join the Army reserves. I 79 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 3: was in that for probably a year. 80 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 2: And a half. 81 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 3: I was trained in infantry, attached to one commando, which 82 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 3: is the reserve unit over here. 83 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 2: And that's all wise. Being in the police. 84 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, well yeah, they're very dommodating with that. They give 85 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:03,679 Speaker 3: you a leave for all that. So yeah, my plan 86 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 3: was to then go on and do selection, and a 87 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 3: lot of people once they actually get through in the 88 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 3: reserve selection, then move into the full time commandos. But 89 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 3: I always knew about the TU the taxic operations unit, 90 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 3: which is realistically the closest thing to the military within 91 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 3: the police force. 92 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,679 Speaker 2: So you're like a special force within the police force. Right. 93 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. So the way it's set up with governments in 94 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 3: Australia and each state, so we are responsible for the 95 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 3: counter terrorism response for New South Wales. So that's why 96 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 3: we take a year of course, as we do above 97 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 3: and beyond other things. We do helicopter operations, fast ope 98 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 3: and all that sort of thing, lots of tactical raping courses, 99 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 3: all our water operations training and then active shooter so 100 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 3: do all of that and we're trained to do that 101 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 3: because ultimately, if there's a terrorist attack in New South Wales, 102 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 3: what happens is we respond. 103 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 2: So so you're doing you're doing all your tactical training, 104 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 2: you're fast roping and and your firearms training, et cetera, 105 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 2: et cetera. We're going to jump now, we're going to 106 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 2: jump straight into into Martin Place. And for those of 107 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 2: you that no Martin Place, you know the Link cafe 108 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 2: very well, and you know we know it very well 109 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 2: because it was global coverage. I remember watching it being 110 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 2: live streams and but to take me through when you 111 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 2: woke up, what you know how how the day went 112 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 2: and how it just transpired into all of a sudden 113 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 2: being fucking at that door, cameras in your face, the 114 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 2: whole world's attention is zoomed in on your team. 115 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a big day and it's a day 116 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 3: that that I'll never forget. I'd say more the aftermath 117 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 3: of everyone with their opinions. It should have been done differently. 118 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 3: It should have been done by the special forces, it 119 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 3: should have been Everyone has an opinion on everything. But yeah, 120 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 3: so that morning, I was just on shift, so I 121 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 3: started at seven am. I was actually in our unit 122 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 3: because we're specialized and obviously see a lot of trauma 123 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 3: and that they make our unit go and see the 124 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 3: shrinks that they have within the police force. I'd say 125 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 3: more a box sticking exercise than anything. But as I 126 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 3: came back into the office, I knew instantly something something 127 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 3: was wrong. I just go back slightly before that. Before that, 128 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 3: we knew it was a matter of time. We've been 129 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 3: doing lots of c T works, so counter terrorism work. 130 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 3: We've been arresting. There was a large cellar I think 131 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 3: it was up to thirty to forty guys. So we've 132 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 3: been doing a lot of arrests in relation to that. 133 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 3: Leading up to it, there was the attack there the 134 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 3: two guys down in Victoria, the counter Terrian police, it 135 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 3: stabbed obviously after nine to eleven, and there's terrorist incidents 136 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 3: happening around the world, so we knew something was coming. 137 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 3: Constant briefings daily. But yeah, as I came back into 138 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 3: the office, it was it was just a very different feel. 139 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 3: Straight away, police negotiate a running through the office, which 140 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 3: is something you never see. 141 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 2: Its ag fider sentences. Yeah. 142 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, and then as I walked in, my sergeant there, 143 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 3: he's walked up. Just grab your stuff, we're going, and 144 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 3: I believe I just said to him, so the big 145 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 3: one's happening, and he's gone, yep, let's go. So that's all. 146 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 3: I took race downstairs. There was another operator in there, 147 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 3: our armored vehicle, so we rushed down to Martin Place 148 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,079 Speaker 3: and it was just a scene of chaos as you 149 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 3: can imagine. There's General Judy's cops everywhere trying to clear 150 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 3: pedestrians off the street. There was our guys trying to 151 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 3: file into positions, and I was allocated to the Alpha team, 152 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 3: the Entry team straight away and we're being briefed honestly, 153 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,839 Speaker 3: as by the seconds things were changing. But right from 154 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,199 Speaker 3: the beginning we were told a man in Middle East 155 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 3: in appearance with a shotgun and a backpack, claiming to 156 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 3: have explosives in the cafe. So yeah, I'd say, right 157 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 3: from the beginning, I knew it was real. Wow. 158 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 2: So when's the first time you step on the ground 159 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 2: and you as an individual and as team start processing 160 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 2: and breaking this down because now you're the eyes and ears. 161 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, and then as you know, you're scrambling 162 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:46,319 Speaker 3: trying to get in tell the other you're trying to 163 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 3: work out best positions. Yeah, we had Sierra teams, so 164 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 3: sniper teams going up. We had three separate sniper teams 165 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 3: in different locations. They really had very limited vision. And 166 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 3: initially we pulled up on say, on the street down 167 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 3: the bottom on Elizabeth Street with Martin place. Then we 168 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 3: were deployed up on the Phillip Street. It's like a 169 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 3: truckloading bay, which is only really thirty meters or so 170 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 3: from the front entry. And yeah, like you said, you 171 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 3: need eyeball into, you need vision in to see what's 172 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 3: going on. You can only there's only so much vision. 173 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 3: The snipers had so that's why myself and my shieldman, PAULI, 174 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 3: we went to our team there and said, look, this 175 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 3: is this is not good. We don't have any real 176 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 3: intel on what's going on. We've had no eyeball into 177 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 3: there for a while. So he gave us permission to 178 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 3: push forward. So it was just my shieldman and myself 179 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 3: was the first cover man. We pushed forward to the 180 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 3: first of four windows on the cafe, and from there 181 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 3: I was able to, yeah, get eyeball into the cafe. 182 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 3: I was able to get quite a bit of vision 183 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 3: what was happening inside. I saw a number of hostages 184 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 3: in there who were completely traumatized, visibly shape and crying. 185 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 3: I saw a number of them holding up the black 186 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 3: Islamic flags to the front windows opposite Channel seven. And then, yeah, 187 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 3: I saw him quite quite a few times. I saw 188 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,599 Speaker 3: his shotgun. I saw the way he was moving. He 189 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 3: was very serious straightaway, and the backpack, it was a 190 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 3: big black camel mountain back and I could see clearly 191 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 3: two wires protruding from the bottom. In my mind, my 192 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 3: shieldman's mind, and my supervisor who pushed forward, we wholeheartedly 193 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 3: believe it was a bomb right from the beginning, we've 194 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 3: done lots of specialist training with the military so and 195 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 3: all that sort of thing, and so from everything, all 196 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 3: their training, we believe it was a bomb right from 197 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 3: the beginning, which changes the whole course of the job, 198 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 3: as you can. 199 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 2: Absolutely it does. Absolutely, it's you know, you're on tender 200 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 2: hooks there. You know, you've got your thinking. You know, 201 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 2: people don't realize hostage rescue is exactly that. You know, 202 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 2: if you can, if you can rescue all of those 203 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 2: hostages and you don't have to fire around them. Wow, 204 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,719 Speaker 2: So you're up against the window, You've got good eyes on. 205 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 2: Now do you ever lock eyes with the terrace? Do 206 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 2: you ever lock eyes with the with the target? And 207 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 2: when you get there and you see the hostages, is 208 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 2: there ever a moment where you're just like whoa, Yeah. 209 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 3: So we actually got vision into the cafe, probably up 210 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 3: to thirty minutes or so. The whole time he was 211 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 3: walking around or any anytime he went past the window, 212 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 3: he'd always have the shotgun on a hostage, so he'd 213 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 3: always be marching a hostage around with him or to 214 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 3: the back of the head. So for everyone, for people 215 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 3: out there saying it should have been a sniper shot, 216 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 3: rot from the beginning. That obviously avoids that. As you know, 217 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 3: the body's natural reaction if your shot is to jerk, 218 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 3: hence to pull the trigger, which would kill a hostage. 219 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 3: We didn't realize at the time through the building manager 220 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 3: that it used to be a bank to so they're 221 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 3: glasses tough and glass to it specialized around for that. Yeah. 222 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 3: And then and then also on top of that, common 223 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 3: practice for that time the dead man switch on the 224 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 3: bomb too, isn't it. So you shoot him even if 225 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 3: you shot him in the right spot, he didn't kill 226 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 3: a hostage released dead man switch, everyone in the cafe 227 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 3: is dead instantly, So that was always a consideration there. 228 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 2: So you're feeding back intel, I suppose you're receiving at 229 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 2: tenfold as well. What's the process like through your head 230 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 2: put us in your head in that time when all 231 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 2: of this information has just been you're being overwhelmed with it. 232 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, So our primary job is to get intel on 233 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 3: each of the hostages, back descriptions of them, and we 234 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 3: did manage to see them for quite a while, and 235 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 3: as much intel and information on him, I'd say on 236 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:02,319 Speaker 3: a personal level, me seeing a lot of these hostages 237 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 3: as you can imagine you get a bit of an 238 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 3: emotional attachment to them, so it becomes more than just 239 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 3: a job with just numbers, and you're overwhelming instinct with 240 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 3: people who in our line of where you want to 241 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 3: you want to go in and rescue, You want to 242 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 3: do your job. You want to be allowed to do 243 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 3: your job and go in and that wasn't allowed to 244 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 3: happen for quite a long time. 245 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 2: What's going through your head? 246 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 3: You know? 247 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 2: As the times ticking. 248 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 3: We were there for up to sixteen hours, so it 249 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 3: was a It was a long day, and we obviously 250 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 3: chatted amongst ourselves in a group, and we all believed 251 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 3: it was a bomb, and we sort of the darking 252 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 3: of joking about it. We all go in there, we 253 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 3: be your medals for the missus and the families, all 254 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 3: that sort of thing. But yeah, then it became quite 255 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 3: real where we one hundred percent believe we run into 256 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 3: that cafe, he's going to set the bomb off. Every 257 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 3: one of us is going to die. So that was 258 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 3: a confronting realization, but it was something that everyone in 259 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 3: my team and I believe the other team, we all 260 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 3: had to get over and we dealt with emotionally that 261 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 3: the moment we run in there, beyond probability, we all 262 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 3: believe we were going to die. So that was that 263 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 3: was difficult for us, to the point we all sent 264 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 3: messages home on I did. I sent message to my 265 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 3: wife at the time, tried saying my goodbys who text 266 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 3: messaged without Alami? I know what I thought? Yeah, I 267 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 3: got it to send some some picks on my little girl. 268 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 3: And yeah, that was that was a real, very real 269 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 3: and confronting moment. She being pregnant too. I never believed 270 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 3: I was going to be able to see my my 271 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 3: second you know. 272 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 2: And how did that work for you? Psychological? Does it 273 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 2: ramp you up? Does it gee you up? Or is 274 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 2: it a case of listen, I just wanted to see 275 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 2: your face before before this, before this ship show kicks off. 276 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd say with this job it was it was 277 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 3: different than other jobs. I'm assuming I'd probably deal with things. 278 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 3: It's the same with you just deal with the situation 279 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 3: and worry about ramifications later. Normally it's it happens, but 280 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 3: being there for sixteen hours and talking about it amongst 281 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 3: your mates and yeah, it just became very real. And yeah, yeah, 282 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 3: one hundred percent believe that I go in there that 283 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 3: I'm going to die. So I was in a roundabout 284 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 3: way saying goodbye, and I just wanted to see a 285 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 3: couple more pics of my daughter again. One of my 286 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 3: best mates, PAULI, is a shield man. He's showing me 287 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 3: some pics of his He's yeah, young like so, yeah, 288 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 3: I think in a roundabout way. Yeah, he even said 289 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 3: to me, I love you, bro, and yeah, I said, 290 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 3: I love you man. So in sort of a rand 291 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 3: about way, we were sort of saying goodbye to each other. 292 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 2: So fucking emotional rollercoaster. 293 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 3: Yeah wow. 294 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 2: And then you get the green light, tell me about 295 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 2: that coming over the radio, right, you know, greenlit, let's go. 296 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 3: So as you know, you're prepared the whole day, but 297 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 3: then you have different situations where ramps right up and yeah, 298 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 3: you adrenaline's pumping. You've got to try and deal with that, 299 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 3: not suppress it, but use it. But yeah, so highs 300 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 3: and loads all day. But then the radio call coming 301 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 3: over that they believed they were settling down for the night, 302 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 3: and then it was within thirty seconds of that we 303 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 3: heard the first shotgun within the cafe go off. So yeah, 304 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 3: from that very moment where completely high and we're completely ready. 305 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 3: We're just desperate to go in. I remember even looking 306 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 3: forward at Paulie and he's just rocking on his feet. 307 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 3: We're just like just desperate, just just waiting go and 308 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 3: then yeah, no call. We didn't go in from that 309 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,719 Speaker 3: point with the shotgun, we didn't have too much intel 310 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,640 Speaker 3: coming in. Straight away. We knew hostage had run out. 311 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:13,719 Speaker 3: We had one one guy actually run up and then 312 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 3: run down Phillip Street so we could see him, so 313 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 3: we knew hostages come out. We knew he'd been fired on. 314 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 3: And then we get that coming over the radio and 315 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 3: it's yeah, so we're just ready, we're heightened one hundred percent, 316 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 3: we're mentally prepared. And then there was a second shotgun 317 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 3: blast went off a little bit later. That was when 318 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,880 Speaker 3: he actually took one of the hostages. Tory Johnson had 319 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 3: him on his knees and the first round he's actually 320 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 3: fired above his head. We didn't know this at the time, 321 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 3: but this is obviously what I know now. Our snipers 322 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 3: had very limited vision. Then there was a third a 323 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 3: third shot rang out and still remember the words coming 324 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 3: over hostage down, white window two, hostage down, what window too? 325 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 3: So we knew he'd now execute to hostage. Yeah, which 326 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 3: is difficult to still even talk about. Yeah, the code 327 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 3: word the EA co woard came over Tiger. Tiger Tiger. 328 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 3: So paulis shellman carrying ballistic shield. As you know, they're 329 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 3: pretty they're pretty heavy, but set off a great rate. 330 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 3: He sprints down to the front entry windows. It's two 331 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 3: large paned glass windows propped on the left. I'm in position, 332 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 3: muzzle up just over his left shoulder, got my light 333 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 3: source on steering into the cafe, just desperate to find him. 334 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 3: A lot of glare coming back off the cafe. And 335 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,479 Speaker 3: as I'm sure you know, everything in these situation just 336 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 3: slows down like so much's it's ridiculous how much it's 337 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 3: slow down. And I remember looking in scanning, I've seen him. 338 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 3: Our EA was the last two blokes on the stack 339 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 3: to try and punch through the first window with a 340 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 3: breaching shotgun and deployee sand and flash grenades through the 341 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 3: first window. That's our only form of distraction we were 342 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,719 Speaker 3: approved to use. And as I touched on before, we 343 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 3: couldn't get through. It used to be a bank, so 344 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 3: the rounds they had couldn't get through. So even that 345 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 3: didn't work. But as I've looked in, I've sighted him 346 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 3: my light, so I've picked him up. He's still wearing 347 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 3: his white shirt. Still see the straps on the backpack. 348 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 3: He's initially looking up to them. Then he's seen me 349 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 3: and he's ye swiveled. He had his shotgun off his 350 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 3: hip and swiveled it straight to face me, and we 351 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 3: had our eyes completely locked. At that point, I was 352 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 3: just waiting for the breacher, which felt like it took 353 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 3: too long in the moment because everything had slowed down 354 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 3: so much. They might have been a second or two, 355 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 3: you know. 356 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 2: But even a split second, even a. 357 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 3: Split second, and he can't really explain it to people 358 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 3: who haven't lived it. But then yeah, he's breached out 359 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 3: the glass window on the left, Paul. He's stepped in 360 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 3: and I just as soon as I took my first step, 361 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 3: just fire a movement, just bang, cracked off around at him. 362 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 3: I ad my light, saw some laser pointer center body mouse, 363 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 3: and I got off two rounds, i'd say, and that's 364 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,199 Speaker 3: when he fired on us the first time. And in 365 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 3: a dark space like a cafe, you can imagine a 366 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 3: muzzle flash from a shotgun, huge flash. I knew it 367 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 3: at that point being fired upon, but still my shield 368 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 3: man's sort of some cover. So yeah, I just kept 369 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 3: I just kept moving to the threat, as we were 370 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 3: trained to do. Just push to the threat, and I 371 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 3: just kept firing on the move. I did hear someone 372 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 3: screaming out man down, man down, behind me, but I 373 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 3: knew I had to block it out because my job 374 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 3: and the only chance I believed in that time, was 375 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 3: to get him down. So he was incapable of detonating 376 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 3: the bomb, so I was completely fixated on him, and 377 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 3: getting rid of him is a threat. I had to 378 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 3: block everything out. I continued to walk forward, just firing 379 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 3: in the movement. Every time the muzzle of stabile ized, 380 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 3: just crack another round off, and I hit something with 381 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 3: my foot that there was a partition. At some point, 382 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 3: I stopped and just kept firing, and that's when he 383 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 3: fired off his second round. And in that moment I 384 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 3: became this is probably seven meters away, you know, pretty close. 385 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 3: You doing well to miss with a shotgun at that range. 386 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 3: And I became very aware in that moment that I 387 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 3: was now on my own. My shield man had been 388 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 3: the first round that he cracked off actually hit the 389 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 3: other glass entry door, clipped his shield as well, and 390 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 3: that the whole weight of that glass came down on 391 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 3: top of him and it just just pulled him the 392 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 3: shield down momentarily, like we said before, but enough for 393 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 3: me to keep pushing forward. But yeah, in that moment, 394 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 3: I still remember behind my rifle, just squinting. I was 395 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 3: sure I was going to get hit, you know, a 396 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 3: shotgunder that range, and I didn't. It's just good. And 397 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 3: then yeah, I kept kept firing on him, and then 398 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 3: I yeah, within my head the questioning why hadn't he 399 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 3: gone down? I knew my rounds were hitting. I was 400 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 3: sent a body mask, my laser pointers on him, so 401 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 3: I just moved it up onto his head and kept firing. 402 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,719 Speaker 3: And then yeah, I knew I'd hit him. He started 403 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 3: to crumple in that moment, I can't be sure if 404 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 3: he's taken a knee or not. So yeah, I followed 405 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 3: him down and fired another couple of times still until 406 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,360 Speaker 3: he came to arrest, And yeah, I was just completely 407 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 3: fixated on him with my ready to go, ready to 408 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 3: fire him. Even if he twitched or moves, I would 409 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 3: have would have fired. Again, He's the only threat, He's 410 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 3: the one can potentially detonate a bomb. So just stayed 411 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 3: fixated on that moment until one of the studies that 412 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,199 Speaker 3: were deployed may well have bounced off the ground and 413 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 3: just cracked up and just bam straight in my left ear. 414 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 3: I've still got tindus and hearing loss to his day 415 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 3: in that moment. That was enough to snap me out 416 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 3: of everything being slowed down and just my fixation on him. 417 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 3: And then I heard someone screaming out with me, with me, 418 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 3: and that was my shield man. Then he's pushed forward. 419 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 3: I pushed forward on his shoulder and stood over him, 420 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 3: and yeah, I knew very quickly he was no longer 421 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 3: no longer a threat. He's just poor blood on the ground. 422 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 3: He's I was only there moment earlier. But it's still 423 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 3: a moment I think about. 424 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 2: It happens so slow, like you said, habits start that 425 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 2: it's hard not for it to be imprinted in your mind, 426 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 2: whether you like it or not. You're so hyper focused 427 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 2: and things that you could the detail of things. You know, 428 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 2: you can still remember his face, his face expressions. You know, 429 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 2: it's embedded there for it us. So it's not like 430 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 2: you can sort of unprocess it because again, until you've 431 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 2: been there and understand it. You're taking every single bit 432 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 2: of detail in every single you know, subconsciously, every single 433 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 2: and moment, in every single millisecond. Is it counts and exactly. 434 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 2: It's hard to really explain, but I can't. I get it, mate, 435 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 2: I get it. 436 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, And for me, it felt like minutes rather than second. Yeah, 437 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 3: that was a lot of the criticism I received personally 438 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 3: later on Why did I fire on him and shoot 439 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 3: him so many times? And all the ballistics testing, everything 440 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 3: that came out proved that the reality was that the 441 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 3: whole time from the point that the window was breached 442 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 3: and I took my first round to my last was 443 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 3: three to four seconds. Title, you know, but yeah, and 444 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 3: that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to keep 445 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 3: firing until he's no longer a threat. 446 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 2: When you said you snap back into the room, because 447 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,239 Speaker 2: it is it's almost like you're in this bubble and 448 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 2: then it's happened and you snap back out of it 449 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 2: by something or someone. Are you straight into the to 450 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 2: releasing the hostages at this stage that you're like, like 451 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 2: the target's been neutralized. That's mission complete on that side. 452 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 2: Now the next next stage is too is to extract 453 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 2: the the the hostages, because obviously you know you're dealing 454 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 2: with not only live hostages, but you're dealing with with 455 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 2: dead hostages. 456 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, of course, there's so like we were talking 457 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 3: about before the moment that the stung grenade went off, 458 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 3: it was like I returned back to reality, real time, 459 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 3: pushed forward to him, stood over him, realize he's no 460 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 3: longer a threat. I was still processing that in the moment, 461 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 3: only a couple of seconds or whatever, but my shieldman, Paulie, 462 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 3: push forward beyond screaming you have been saved to a hostage. 463 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 3: In that moment, yeah, I realized now like now our 464 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 3: priority is to get as many hostages out as we can. 465 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 3: Priority has changed. First priority to neutralize him, I will 466 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 3: say too. When I was standing over him, looking down, 467 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 3: I was looking at the backpack, I can still see 468 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 3: it's full as wires coming out. So even in that moment, 469 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 3: I still believed it was definitely a bomb. So now 470 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 3: a new priority before it potentially goes off at any 471 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 3: time is to get as many out, and that's what 472 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 3: I did. 473 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 2: Well, May got an extract from your book Tiger Tiger, Tiger, 474 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 2: and which is phenomenal book. And there's a paragraph in 475 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 2: there that I thought explained it really well, you know, 476 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 2: and I'm going to read that paragraph and this is 477 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 2: when you heard tiger, Tiger, Tiger, And it says, but 478 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 2: the brutal reality, as we saw it, was that as 479 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 2: soon as we entered the cafe, everyone was going to 480 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 2: die in a massive ied explosion. In that moment, this 481 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 2: inevitably hit us like a proverbial mat truck. Our training 482 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,640 Speaker 2: had incorporated strategies for deliberately putting away distracting feelings about 483 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 2: being killed, but now death seemed almost a certainty. No 484 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 2: one spoke. We just stood there, our rifles at the ready, 485 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 2: shoulder to shoulder, ready to go, waiting for the whistle 486 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 2: to blow, deep in our own thoughts. Wow, and I 487 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 2: know that you broke that down and said exactly what 488 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 2: you were you felt you were doing, obviously running into 489 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 2: a suicide mission. But when did you realize that that 490 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 2: suicide mission sort of was no longer? When did you 491 00:28:55,040 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 2: realize that, actually, now we've got the upper hand. I've 492 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 2: survived this. And the reason why I say it probably 493 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 2: wasn't because the chaos of the situation, but to have 494 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 2: that mindset before you breach you breach, you face the terrorists, 495 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 2: You've got all of these hostages, and all of a sudden, 496 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,479 Speaker 2: was there a moment where you think I'm not going 497 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 2: to die, you know we're safe, or you know we've 498 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 2: lived through it or with it, or did just the 499 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 2: situation take over. 500 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, So on entry, as I went to engage him, 501 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 3: I believed I'd take one or two steps in boments 502 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 3: all over. But all I can do in the moment 503 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 3: is try and get him down, and that was our 504 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 3: only hope that I saw it for us, all the hostages. 505 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 3: The moment, I was standing over the top of him, 506 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 3: so he's now dead, no longer a threat. I was 507 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 3: processing that, but also processing that I can see the bomb. 508 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 3: It's still there. It hasn't gone off. So even in 509 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 3: those few seconds I was there, that was Yeah, I 510 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 3: was processing weight. I'm in here, I've actually killed him. 511 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 3: I'm standing over he's now dead body. The bomb hasn't 512 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 3: gone off, So yeah, I'd say. In in that that moment, 513 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 3: it changed slightly in my mind. I didn't think I 514 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 3: was safe, but I was still shocked and surprised. I 515 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 3: was I was still alive and he's now dead. At 516 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 3: my feet. So now priority has now changed. Let's get 517 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 3: as many hostages as we can because this may well 518 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 3: go off at at any time. 519 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 2: What's the situation like when you're getting the hostages out, 520 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 2: is it just get them out as quick as possible 521 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 2: and get them to safety and then start to process 522 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 2: what's what the hell has gone on? 523 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, next phase is search as hard, as fast and 524 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 3: as hard as you can. First hostage I went to 525 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 3: was actually Luis, I hope with Paulie. He was on 526 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 3: She was sitting on the floor in a pretty pretty 527 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 3: bad way, you know, definitely suffering from shock and everything. 528 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 3: Paul He's tried lifting up. I'd rush to side. I 529 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 3: went to pick her up, and we're trying to rush 530 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 3: her out as quick as we could. And realized she 531 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 3: wasn't helping her. She wasn't she wasn't walking with what 532 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 3: was going on. And I looked down and that's when 533 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 3: I saw her foot. I believe it was shrapnel that 534 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 3: she copped and there was her foot was only literally 535 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 3: been held on with a couple of attendons and just 536 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 3: dragging behind her. So yeah, in that moment, wasn't much 537 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 3: time to process. Oh shit, Okay, we picked up fireman's 538 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 3: carry and then rushed her out, rushed her out the front, 539 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 3: and yeah, the paramedics were all waiting. They rushed into her. 540 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 3: Quickly turned to go back into the cafe. That's when 541 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 3: I looked down to my left and there was someone 542 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 3: all in black receiving a lot of treatment by paramedics. 543 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 3: That's when the man down, man down came rushing back 544 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 3: to me. I thought it was my supervisor just quickly 545 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 3: in the moment, because yeah, I believed initially it was him, 546 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 3: because I knew there was a man down, didn't know 547 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 3: the story behind it. And then yeah, it came quickly 548 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 3: aware that it was Tory Johnson who'd been executed, which 549 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 3: is obviously very confronting. But then a couple of the 550 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 3: other operators come out. One of them bumped into me 551 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 3: with a hostage. So yeah, I just punched straight back 552 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 3: into the cafe. And the lights were now on in 553 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 3: the cafe. And as you notice, as soon as you 554 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 3: turn lights on from a dark space, the whole whole 555 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 3: field everything changes. Being dark, everything feels so much bigger 556 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 3: and more. As soon as the lights are on it 557 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 3: it's changed. And it was not only a scene of chaos, 558 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 3: it was just it was a It was a brutal scene. 559 00:32:55,240 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 3: There was there was smash class everywhere. There were spent 560 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 3: bullet cartridges, stun grenades, screaming distraught hostages and just just 561 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 3: blood everywhere. The place is filled with smoke. But yeah, 562 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 3: I just went straight pushed straight to the back and 563 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 3: one of the other team leaders screaming out using more 564 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 3: tactical terms I won't use here, but just search everywhere, 565 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 3: search the place. We've got to get out of here 566 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 3: as fast as we can. The bomb's going to go 567 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 3: off at any time. So I started scanning the back 568 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 3: of the back of the cafe, like sort of behind 569 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 3: where where he's still bleeding out on the floor. And 570 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 3: that's when there's a lot of tables in the back 571 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 3: corner stacked up with other tables on top and chairs 572 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 3: and everything. And as I looked down, I could see 573 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 3: what was the top of someone's head. I knew it 574 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 3: was a hostage. Screamed out to my I made them right, 575 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 3: and he yeah, we were just rushed in, just throwing 576 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 3: the tables as fast as we could. We just tried 577 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 3: getting to her as fast as we could, and then 578 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 3: each table we removed, we can see more and more 579 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 3: of her. Yeah, so I've quickly taken a knee. Her 580 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 3: head came to rest on my forearm, and yeah, I 581 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 3: knew she was in a real bad way. From that point, 582 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 3: I knew in that moment there was nothing I could 583 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,879 Speaker 3: really do. One of the boys screaming out be from 584 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 3: behind him, we need medics, So I knew. I knew 585 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 3: the paramedics were on their way, and literally, as we're 586 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 3: looking at each other's eyes, all I could really do 587 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 3: was just will her to take another breath, and then 588 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 3: finally she didn't, she stopped breathing. It's i'd say, still 589 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,320 Speaker 3: the toughest moment of my life, having her die in 590 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 3: my arms like that, and then we later finding out 591 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 3: that she'd been killed by police shrapnel. I know, if 592 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 3: you look at it factually and everything else that's all 593 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 3: come out, and the rounds we're using fragged a lot. 594 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 3: The rounds that even hit I may well have gone 595 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 3: through him to to hit her. But it's sort of 596 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 3: something that I've always blamed myself for. And I'd say, 597 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 3: through all the other things I went through, all the 598 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,919 Speaker 3: other jobs I went through, this is the one thing 599 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 3: that I knew I couldn't process couldn't, couldn't lock away, 600 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 3: And I'd say, it's the reason why I'm not still work. 601 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 2: And you know what, mate, we have a whole tendency 602 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,919 Speaker 2: as soldiers to do exactly the same thing. We take 603 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 2: something that was completely out of our control and we 604 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 2: take it personally, We own that, we own it personally 605 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 2: when ultimately, you know we shouldn't. It's easier said than done. 606 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 2: I've got good friends, and I went through a process 607 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 2: myself of being in a patrol and someone getting blown 608 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 2: up and thinking well, I should have been there, that 609 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 2: should have been me. I should have gone point that day. 610 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 2: And then I look at the grand scheme of things 611 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 2: and you know that that I d didn't have my 612 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:35,839 Speaker 2: power's name on. It didn't have my name on. It 613 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 2: was just, you know, it just happened in it in 614 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,839 Speaker 2: a way. And again with ricochets and collateral damage. It's 615 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 2: one of those where the personal element, if you can 616 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 2: try and take away that personal element and go right, well, actually, 617 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 2: this is what I've personally done and what I personally controlled, 618 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 2: which you know ultimately saved multiple hostages and you took 619 00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 2: out an evil individual, you took out a threat to 620 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 2: not only humanity, but to you know, to for further 621 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 2: chaos and destruction if they would have got their own way. 622 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 2: In your book, you talk about, you know, the high 623 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 2: price that you've paid for your service. What tolld did 624 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 2: the siege take on you? 625 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 3: I'd say right from that moment. I've obviously witnessed and 626 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 3: seen and been part of a lot of other traumatic incidents, 627 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 3: and I was after it. I did manage to stay 628 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,399 Speaker 3: on in the TIU for another six years after it, 629 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 3: but all the others, everything else I've seen, I've been 630 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 3: able to lock away, you know, and just I'll deal 631 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 3: with that later, which is obviously not right, but it's 632 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,919 Speaker 3: something you do to keep to keep operational. But I knew, 633 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 3: I knew this one instantly. It's really taken its toll. 634 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 3: I had to fight everything I had because all I 635 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 3: wanted to do is be with my support network, which 636 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 3: were which are the boys, you know the other opera 637 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 3: and my symptoms were to be Yeah, my half of 638 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,879 Speaker 3: vigilance is the next level. Anytime I was at work, 639 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 3: I'd walk around literally my hand on my gun the 640 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 3: whole time. I'd even see just randoms, other police or 641 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 3: anyone just just being shot and bleeding out in front 642 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 3: of me, not that I'd done it, but just that 643 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 3: was what was happening. Anytime I saw a blond woman, 644 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:32,720 Speaker 3: I'd instantly believe it was Katrina and just instant panic 645 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:40,360 Speaker 3: attacking it and just have to concee little. It slowly 646 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 3: did get better over time, and I managed to get 647 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 3: back to a point where I believe I was effective operationally. 648 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 3: But yeah, for the six months following it was it 649 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 3: was bad, and and I didn't I didn't want to 650 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 3: tell anyone. I wanted to deal with it myself. I 651 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 3: wanted to be with the boys. I wanted to be 652 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 3: with the be with them, and as you know, that's 653 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 3: your support network for people who have been through similar 654 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 3: things and the the ones you you're with all the time. 655 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 3: But yeah, I did manage to lock it away, I'd 656 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 3: say for managed to last for another six years until yeah, 657 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 3: my cup just to stay overflowed. I could tell it 658 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 3: was creeping in and it was starting to overwhelm me, 659 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 3: and had a mate of mine telling me to go 660 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 3: and see it's good, good psych that he you and 661 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:28,919 Speaker 3: bought it for a long time, and eventually I did, 662 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 3: And yeah, that was when my whole journey in my 663 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 3: fight with PTSD started. 664 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,319 Speaker 2: From that point, I say, how are you getting on now? 665 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 3: So that started the whole new phase of my life 666 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,320 Speaker 3: is with PDSD. And initially I'd say it was getting 667 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 3: the better of me. It was pretty much alcoholic not sleeping, nightmares, 668 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 3: all that sort of thing that went on for longer 669 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,319 Speaker 3: than I'd like. Eventually, I remember a moment where I 670 00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 3: just snapped at my girls and it was unreasonable. I 671 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 3: knew I had to sort it out. When I did, 672 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 3: I force myself under the guidance and my psyched to 673 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,680 Speaker 3: go and do a stint in the psych hospital. That's 674 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 3: extremely confronting, which I did. But yeah, my new fight 675 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 3: was that, and it's not I was unwilling to have 676 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 3: that as my identity. I'm not willing to have anything 677 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 3: beat me. PDSD wasn't going to beat me, and I'm 678 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,239 Speaker 3: pretty stubborn that way. And yeah, I just applied sort 679 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 3: of what I learned in THEU just to confront the 680 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 3: threat and then use every resource you can. And that 681 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 3: then led into the book and my journey with it. 682 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 3: The way I go about fighting PTSD and put it 683 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,480 Speaker 3: in the book, and that's getting good traction. And it's 684 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 3: now helping a lot of people, which is something I want. 685 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 2: Saving lives again, Mate, saving lives again. Honestly, there's no 686 00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,720 Speaker 2: fluff for threat. It saves lives. Mate. 687 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,280 Speaker 3: In a way, I feel like that's my news service. 688 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 3: And yeah, getting my name out there that was important 689 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 3: to me because not only I want to put my 690 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 3: name to my story and tell the untold action to 691 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,759 Speaker 3: the tear every brave operator on the day, but then 692 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,200 Speaker 3: my journey with PTSD, which has already helped people I 693 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 3: know will help people. 694 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,480 Speaker 2: You want to tell your story, Mate, You want to 695 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,360 Speaker 2: tell your story, and I'm glad that I can be 696 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:29,279 Speaker 2: part of that, Mate with my podcast head Game. But 697 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:34,719 Speaker 2: your book, Tiger Tiger, Tiger Listen, your story's in there. 698 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 2: It's a phenomenal book. I would recommend that anyone go 699 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,440 Speaker 2: and buy it and Benny listen. It's been an absolute 700 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 2: pleasure having you on this podcast, Mate. But ultimately, what 701 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,920 Speaker 2: you're doing, and again I know it's hard to hear 702 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,279 Speaker 2: is with your books and with your story is you 703 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,319 Speaker 2: are saving lives, Mate. So that's what you are, Mate, 704 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,320 Speaker 2: your life saver. Continue to save lives, Mate, and hopefully 705 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:57,719 Speaker 2: this podcast will help as well. 706 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I really really appreciate than you are having 707 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,759 Speaker 3: me on and getting the word out there, because now, yeah, 708 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 3: I just want to get out and speak to as 709 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 3: many people and help as many as I can. So 710 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:07,759 Speaker 3: appreciate it. 711 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:13,279 Speaker 2: This man, my guest today, was Ben Pissant. To find 712 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,440 Speaker 2: out more about his experience in the link Cafe Siege, 713 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 2: you can read the full story in his book, Tiger 714 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,720 Speaker 2: Tiger Tiger. I'll link the details in the show notes, 715 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:28,120 Speaker 2: or you can head to Tiger Tiger Tiger book dot com. 716 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for joining me for this episode of 717 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,800 Speaker 2: head Game. If you enjoyed it, please leave me a review. 718 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,640 Speaker 2: I'm at Middleton. Catch you in the next episode.