1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Fear and Greed Sunday feature Michael Thompson. There's 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: been a lot of talk this week about social media 3 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: platform we Are, eight after it laid off its Australian team. 4 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: Despite those job losses, the founder of the app says 5 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: that the company isn't contracting, that it is reallocating resources 6 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: to the US and Europe. Now. We are a somewhat 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: unusual beast in the world of social media. It's a 8 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: platform that markets itself as an ethical and non addictive 9 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: alternative to the likes of Instagram, Facebook and TikTok. Back 10 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 1: in October of twenty twenty two, when we Are first 11 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: launched in Australia, we spoke with the founder, Zoe Kahala, 12 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: who was then known as Sue Fantasy. It is a 13 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 1: really interesting insight, this conversation into the development of a 14 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: platform in a very crowded space, an app that apparently 15 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: has about five hundred thousand active monthly users now with 16 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: around two million downloads. It costs sixty million dollars to develop. 17 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: We learned that this week, a quarter of which came 18 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: out of the founder's own pocket, which is a very 19 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 1: big sum in a very tough market. This is a 20 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: great interview by Sean Aylmer. I hope you enjoy it. 21 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 22 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 2: Social media can be a pretty unpleasant place at times 23 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 2: for the users and the businesses trying to advertise or 24 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 2: promote their services. For the users, it can be very 25 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 2: negative with a focus on superficial and hateful content. For advertisers, 26 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 2: there's not a great deal of transparency and there can 27 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: be a lot of waste. A new platform is aiming 28 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 2: to change all of that. We Are eight. That's were 29 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 2: new aal eight Were eight All one word has recently 30 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 2: launched in Australia, promising a platform that's free from hate, 31 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 2: good for the planet and puts money back in the 32 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 2: wallets of those using it. Plus it's been built by 33 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 2: a very highly respected tech entrepreneur. We Are eight is 34 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: a brainchild of Sue Fantasy, the founder and former CEO 35 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 2: and Media Index, the world's leading media data aggregation business. 36 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 2: Sue is now the founder and CEO of we Are eight, 37 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 2: a supporter of this podcast and joins me from the UK. 38 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 2: So welcome to Fear and Greed. 39 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,839 Speaker 3: Thank you. Sean wonderful to be here. Thank you. 40 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 2: There are really two elements of this that I'm keen 41 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 2: to talk to you about from the user's perspective and 42 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: then from the advertiser's perspective. Let's start with the user. 43 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 2: Why develop a new platform because there are plenty out there. 44 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. So you know it's funny when even when I 45 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,639 Speaker 3: hear the word user, now because we call everyone on 46 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 3: eight citizens, you're an eight citizen where the people's platform. 47 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 3: I was living in New York for twelve years and 48 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 3: there was a moment when I built SMNE. We could 49 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 3: see all of this money going to media and one 50 00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 3: hundred and seventeen billion dollars last year Sean went to 51 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 3: Facebook in ad revenue. And the crazy thing is people 52 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 3: didn't get a cent of that. So we're shoved. 53 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 2: Ads. 54 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 3: Ads are constantly put in front of us, and yet 55 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 3: nothing is shared with the people. So our belief is, 56 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 3: if we're going to you know, in a world where 57 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 3: there's an economic crisis, a climate crisis, a mental health crisis, 58 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 3: of which socialist fueled so many problems, we need to 59 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 3: move from a world of greed to one of sharing 60 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 3: and really create abundance. So our mission became how could 61 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 3: we redirect that money that's going to Facebook back to 62 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 3: people and the causes that matter and thirty million dollars 63 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 3: and seven years later, that's what we've built so for people. 64 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 3: Our whole mission is to make it really fun and 65 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 3: easy to make positive impact in the world through collecttion 66 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 3: of action, to get money into your wallet every time 67 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,839 Speaker 3: you watch an ad, because if you watch an ad 68 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 3: on EID, you watch them on your terms, so they're 69 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 3: uncoupled from the content. You tap on it. You watch 70 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 3: the ad answer a couple of questions and then money 71 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 3: goes into your wallet and donations go to charity. And 72 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 3: then separately, we can see our friends again. From October, 73 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 3: you can see your friends in a pure friends feed 74 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 3: free of algorithms, because the algorithms have actually destroyed our lives, 75 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 3: and they've made people's world smaller and more isolated and 76 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 3: take us as humans to our lowest common denominator. On eight, 77 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 3: we want to make your worlds bigger and more connected. 78 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 3: So we have a stage where you can discover amazing 79 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 3: people to follow like you, and then you have your 80 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 3: friends feed, which is just purely your friends. You see 81 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 3: their content when they post it at the time they 82 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 3: post it. So it's a reimagining of social. It's really social. 83 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 3: It's what social should be, with all the money coming 84 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 3: back to the people. 85 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm just trying to get my head around this. 86 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,559 Speaker 2: It's an app which basically takes kind of the big 87 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 2: tech media culture out of how people use apps. 88 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 3: I mean, the interface with Facebook really hasn't changed for 89 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 3: a long time. We've spent years reimagining that. So what 90 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 3: you're going to see in October is a reimagined social 91 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 3: where you can discover people that you want to follow 92 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 3: in a really beautiful way, free from ads, where you 93 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 3: have your friends feed that is purely your friends. And 94 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 3: if you want to watch ads, ninety eight percent of 95 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 3: people do because every time they watch an ad, donations 96 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 3: go to charity and that's how you redirect money to causes. 97 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 3: But money goes also into your wallet to pay your 98 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 3: mobile bill and the little subscriptions and things in your 99 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 3: life as well. So we've inverted everything. And interestingly, where 100 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 3: the only platform where people actually want to watch ad 101 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 3: they want two minutes of ads a day because that's 102 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 3: how they redirect money and pay, you know, pay for 103 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 3: all their little subscriptions, their TV subscriptions, et cetera. 104 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 2: I'm still trying to get my head around this. How 105 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 2: did you come up with the idea because it does 106 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 2: very much invert the commercial model? 107 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think it's been an evolution, Sean. 108 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 3: I mean, we we've had teams of behavioral scientists for 109 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 3: years working with me to re imagine what an experience 110 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 3: could look like, because we we wanted to imagine is 111 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 3: it possible to have a social experience that is free 112 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 3: from hate and that involves AI moderation, you know, reporting, infrastructure, 113 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 3: all of that, But is it possible to have people 114 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 3: feeling really good and connected every day? And then is 115 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 3: it possible to deliver someone a digital ad in a 116 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 3: way that guarantees their attention but leaves them feeling really good? 117 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 3: For us, it's all about the feeling. And you know, 118 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 3: we're not feeling good. We're not we're feeling like users. 119 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 3: We're not feeling like powerful citizens who can change the world. 120 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 3: And look, our bigger reason is to reconnect people with themselves, 121 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 3: with each other and the planet in eight minutes so 122 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 3: we can take collective action. 123 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 2: Stay with me, Sue, We'll be back in a minute. 124 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 2: My guest this morning is Sue Fantasy, founder and CEO 125 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 2: of We Are Eight. So the hate part of it, 126 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 2: So you're going to ensure that it's free from hate ate? 127 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 2: How do you do that? 128 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 3: Yes, So that has been an equal obsession. So we 129 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 3: work with lots of Premier League footballers, musicians, artists, actors, 130 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 3: and the hate that they have to endure is truly shocking. Actually, 131 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 3: one of the players last week told me that he 132 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 3: received four hundred death threats on other platforms, and not 133 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 3: just him but his family members because he missed a goal, 134 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:56,559 Speaker 3: which is horrific. Right. So what we've built, firstly, it's 135 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 3: a commitment to zero tolerance, zero tolerance hate. You can't 136 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 3: be anonymous, so the way that we on book removing 137 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 3: anonymity is a really big thing. Then the way we've 138 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:16,079 Speaker 3: architected it so your friends feed is private for everyone. 139 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 3: So if I'm friends with you, we have friends with 140 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 3: each other, which let's be friends on eighth you can 141 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 3: see my posts and I can see yours. It's only 142 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,439 Speaker 3: if you're verified with a Golden eight halo that's our 143 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 3: blue tick, and only then can your content be seen 144 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 3: on the stage and you can build a following. So 145 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 3: you have to be verified, to be able to be 146 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 3: seen publicly, and by verifying all the talent, all of 147 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 3: the content creators, that sort of enables us to control 148 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 3: who is seen publicly. We've got a moderation infrastructure around 149 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 3: the reporting because all eight citizens can comment and then 150 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 3: we have reporting. And what's interesting the tech companies hide 151 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 3: behind freedom of speech, and that is just crap, honestly, 152 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 3: because it's what they're fueling is hate speech because they 153 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:27,439 Speaker 3: want people angry, fearful, scrolling longer, and we don't. We 154 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 3: want you on eight for eight minutes a day, a 155 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 3: couple of minutes seeing your friends, a couple of minutes 156 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:38,319 Speaker 3: getting inspired by amazing content, two minutes of collective action, 157 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 3: two minutes of watching a couple of ads, getting money 158 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 3: in you wallet, then go and live live you life again. 159 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 3: And so it's a very different intention and architecture that 160 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 3: the old world has. I mean, I think within a 161 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 3: year we're going to be looking at that going It 162 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 3: just doesn't make us feel good. We're being used. 163 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 2: From an advertisers perspective too, there must be a huge 164 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 2: incentive there to be part of this. I mean, so businesses, 165 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 2: I've run the social media comments on them, which are 166 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 2: just wrong and their faults and whatnot. It can really 167 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 2: destroy a business. Though I'm totally unfairly this won't allow 168 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 2: that then for advertisers. 169 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 3: Do you know it's interesting, Sean, I hadn't thought of 170 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 3: We have a cracking model for advertisers where advertisers can 171 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 3: reach citizens. Citizens except to watch the ad, they get 172 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 3: their full attention, ask a couple of questions, and they 173 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 3: build a really deep relationship. So we're getting all the 174 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 3: biggest supermarket brands, Nike, all the big banks, Unilever, everyone 175 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 3: use the ad model and get really transformational results. One 176 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 3: of our campaigns last week got sixty one percent click through. 177 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 2: Wow, I know our audience. 178 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 3: It's so ridiculous that we had to get PwC to 179 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 3: have an audit infrastructure because we couldn't report our own homework. 180 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 3: Because for the first time, we're delivering someone an AD 181 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 3: in a way that respects them as a citizen who's 182 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 3: changing the world. I mean, the old world has thought 183 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 3: of advertising as a necessary evil. We've got a jam 184 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 3: ads in here because that's how we make lots of money, 185 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 3: but they really don't want them our world. We see 186 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 3: brands power to change the world with citizens because they 187 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 3: have a lot of money, and as humans we have 188 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 3: to buy stuff only consciously buy stuff, so we can 189 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 3: have conscious consumers. But we can get all of that 190 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 3: money back to the people and the planet. And if 191 00:12:56,200 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 3: we come together, so we see brands and advertisers as 192 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 3: doing and bringing good in the world. And once you 193 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 3: see the good that is possible abundant and funnel the 194 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 3: money back to people in the planet, good things happen. 195 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 3: But you mentioned something really important. Every brand can also 196 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 3: have an organic channel in eight. So we have brands 197 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 3: like Nike and all the charities so they can build 198 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 3: their following on we are as well and have an 199 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 3: organic profile. They can bring their best content. But as 200 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 3: you say, it's free of hate. 201 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 2: So so it's this month October you're launching generally, is 202 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 2: that right? And so to get the app? How do 203 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 2: I get it? 204 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 3: App Store, Google Play Store, download the app. Become an 205 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 3: eight citizen, join us in changing the world. Donate your 206 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 3: earnings to all those charities that you love and care about, 207 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 3: and feel your power to change the world. Invite your friends. 208 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 3: You can share your real voice. Your voice really matters. 209 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 3: I think you know, with all of the worry in 210 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 3: the world, and all the fear and all the greed 211 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,839 Speaker 3: and everything that's happening. You know, we can feel pretty powerless. 212 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 3: Well not anymore. This is the place where we come 213 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 3: together and drive real change. 214 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 2: So thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 215 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me Sean. It's been brilliant. 216 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 2: Sue Fantasy, founder and CEO of We Are Eight, a 217 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 2: supporter of this podcast. This is the Fear and Greed 218 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 2: Daily Interview. Join us every morning for the full episode 219 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 2: of Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm 220 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 2: Sean elma Enjoy your day.