1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: This episode of Headgame was recorded on gadigal Land. 2 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 2: It's nineteen eighty five and we're in a hut in 3 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 2: a small lakeside town in New Zealand. This is where 4 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 2: sixteen year old Suzanne Hayward will call home for the 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 2: next nine months as her parents take off on another 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 2: sailing adventure. For the last ten years, she's been on 7 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 2: board the Wavewalker, fulfilling her father's dream of sailing the world. 8 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 2: While the idea of a childhood filled with sun, sea 9 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 2: and adventure sounds idyllic, the reality is much tougher, with 10 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 2: access to healthcare, formal education, and friendships all near impossible 11 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 2: to come by. Suzanne is desperate to learn and has 12 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 2: been hassling her parents about trying to go to university instead. 13 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 2: Inside this wooden shack, she's been tasked with looking after 14 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 2: her younger brother, helping him to get an education, ensurre 15 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 2: and the house is clean and that he is fed. 16 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:10,839 Speaker 2: She does exactly that, but refuses to abandon her aspirations. 17 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 2: In the process, she starts to write letters to every 18 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 2: university she's ever heard of, Cambridge, Oxford and Harvard, and 19 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 2: against the odds, she hears back from Oxford I'm at 20 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 2: Middleton and this is headgame today. Susanne Hayward on pursuing 21 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 2: her own dream despite being forced to live her fathers. 22 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 2: I am super delighted to have Susanne Haywood first and foremost. 23 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 2: How are you. 24 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: I'm good, Thank you, very good to be talking to 25 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: you this morning. 26 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 2: Do you know what I couldn't wait to talk to 27 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 2: you because I reenacted the mutiny on the Bounty from 28 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 2: seventeen eighty nine in twenty seventeen, and you know, I 29 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 2: thought that was quite the adventure. Then I read your 30 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 2: let's call it a resume your career and I was 31 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 2: just like, you just sunk my ship completely. So I 32 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 2: can't wait to get into it. To be fair, I'm 33 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 2: super excited about this one. And I'm going to go 34 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,799 Speaker 2: right back to the beginning, Susanne, because at the age 35 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 2: of six, your father made a choice to drag you 36 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 2: all out of England and to sail around the world. 37 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 2: But that was at the age of six years old 38 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 2: to super young, going back before then, what was your 39 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 2: first ever memory? 40 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: So my first memory is being a little kid in 41 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: England and I have a younger brother who's a year 42 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: younger than me, and I remember standing next to his crib, 43 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: and in fact, there's a very there's an incident very 44 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: early on when I was very little where I found 45 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 1: a kind of set of I think they were kind 46 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: of Paris. They were aspirins actually in the cupboard, and 47 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: they were at the time they were multi colored, and 48 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: I apparently kind of fed them to him through the 49 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: kind of bars with his crib as results of which 50 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: I think both of us had to be rushed off 51 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: to the hospital to have our stomachs pumped. I think 52 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: it was done out of you know, kind of love, 53 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: not hatred as it were. I thought I was. I 54 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 1: was sharing a good thing. 55 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. At the age of six, between your first 56 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 2: memory and when your father sort of decided to leave 57 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 2: and live his dream and drag you along with him, 58 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 2: what was your childhood like? Was it where you just 59 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 2: come from a normal family? Can you remember, you know, 60 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: it being just a just a normal you got You've 61 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 2: got your brother, you got your mother, you've got your father, 62 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 2: and everything was normal. 63 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: So I have very distinct memories of living in the 64 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: house we were living in in Warwick, which is in 65 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: the center of the UK. My father was working at 66 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: Warwick Castle. We were living in a house on a 67 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: street that actually was kind of under you know, ran 68 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: alongside the wall of the castle down to a river 69 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: at the end. And I think we were having a 70 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: kind of relatively well to do but not wealthy, middle 71 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 1: class existence in Warwick, in this middle sized town in 72 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,559 Speaker 1: the UK. I was going to school. I was learning 73 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: how to ride a horse. I was trying to learn 74 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: how to play the violin. I don't think I was 75 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: very good, but I was trying to learn how to 76 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: play the violin. I had a best friend called Sarah. 77 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 1: I had a dog called Rusty. But life, you know, 78 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: was pretty normal. I don't remember feeling particularly different to 79 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: any other kind of little girl. At that sort of age. 80 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 2: Your life took a drastic change. And do you remember 81 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 2: your father coming in and telling you that you were 82 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 2: just about to embark on a on a journey of 83 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 2: a lifetime for the good or bad, and that all 84 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 2: of that would be a distant memory. 85 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: I do remember him telling us, and I was about 86 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: six at the time, and I remember it was over 87 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: the kitchen table in our house in Warwick, the one 88 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: that I just described, and I remember him sitting there. 89 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: My parents both smoked very heavily at the time. You 90 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: got to remember, this is the kind of nineteen seventies, 91 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: So it was in kind of wreaths of smoke as 92 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:27,919 Speaker 1: I remember it, and he was telling us that this 93 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: was this fantastic adventure that we were going on. We 94 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: were going to sail around the world. We're following Captain Cook. 95 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: He presented it as a bit of a noble mission 96 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: to follow Captain Cook on the two hundredth anniversary. Now 97 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: kind of now, given what I know, I slightly questioned 98 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: some of that story which I was given at the time. 99 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: This was a big adventure. I loved my father, like 100 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 1: a lot of the little girls. I thought he was 101 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: a bit of a hero. So I was worried about 102 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: leaving everything behind. But he assured me we were going 103 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: to be back in three years time and then everything 104 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: would go back to normal. You know, my friends would 105 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: be waiting for me, my dog will be there, my 106 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: favorite toy, which was a doll's house, which was an 107 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: old dolls house that he painted, that would be waiting 108 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: for me in my grandfather's attics. So everything would go 109 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: back to normal. 110 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 2: And was there a sense of excitement, was You're going 111 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 2: off on this big adventure. Obviously the man that you love, 112 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,359 Speaker 2: that's your father that you trust, you know explicitly, you 113 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 2: know you're going along with it. Was there a sense 114 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 2: of excitement to go do you know what, let's go 115 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 2: on this adventure? Or was it a case of, oh, 116 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 2: I'm not too sure about this? How did you feel 117 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 2: at the time? 118 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: I think it was mixed. So I was excited to 119 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: be particularly was my dad, who I thought was a 120 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: bit of a hero. I think I struggled ready to 121 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 1: have a kind of concept of what this thing was about. 122 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: Apart from the factor it was three years of sailing, 123 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: which did seem if you can imagine to a kind 124 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: of six seven year old, that's. 125 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 2: A long half your life. 126 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 1: So I think excited would be uvestating it. But it 127 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: was a mixture of kind of you know, I I 128 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: was kind of intrigued. I definitely wanted to go on it. 129 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: I mean, if my father was going to go on it, 130 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: I didn't want to be left behind. But I was 131 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: upset about leaving my friends and my dog, you know, 132 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: So so it was quite a kind of mixed emotion. 133 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 2: And how did life change for you? You know, You've 134 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 2: got this this great life, you're living. You know, you're 135 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 2: you're the ultimate sort of family unit. You know, one boy, 136 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 2: one girl, mom and dad, and then your life changed. 137 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 2: How drastically does it change? And how obvious was it 138 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: at the time? 139 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: It was very obvious. So there was a long period 140 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: because it took about a year of preparing for this voyage, 141 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: and you know, we went down to the boat as 142 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: kids quite a number of so my dad was spending 143 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: increasingly almost all of his time down at the boat 144 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: preparing the boat, loading stores on the boat, getting the 145 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: sails for the boat, and everything else. And then we 146 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: set sail, and that was almost like walking through a 147 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: door into a different world because we set sail and 148 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: we almost immediately went into a storm. My mother immediately 149 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: retreated to her cabin and disappeared for about three days. 150 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: My father was up on deck steering the boat through 151 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: this storm. We had three crew on board at the time, 152 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: but they were basically on the wheel or sleeping. So 153 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: my brother and I were seven and six and left 154 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: downstairs in the main cabin basically kind of clinging on 155 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: on our own for about three days. And I remember 156 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: being well, first of all, I remember just trying to 157 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: kind of deal with the circumstance because the cabin is 158 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: kind of being thrown backwards and forwards as you're going 159 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: through the wave waves. I have waves and water coming 160 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: down through the main hatch, which was never very well sealed, 161 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: so whenever you had a wave landing on the deck, 162 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: a degree of water would come down below. So you 163 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,439 Speaker 1: got very I got very good, very quickly at kind 164 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:14,319 Speaker 1: of moving out of the way every time we'll kind 165 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: of wave hit or kind of finding bits that were 166 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: a little bit drier. And eventually I worked out there 167 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: wasn't going to be any food, so we started eating. 168 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: We'd be given a fruit cake before we left, and 169 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: we started kind of eating that. So you can imagine, 170 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I will just just changed overnight. You know, 171 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: We've gone from being normal little kids going to school, 172 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: playing with our friends, just sitting on sitting down below, 173 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: kind of clinging on it. It's kind of wet, it's 174 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: kind of cold, there's no food, and my mother's disappeared. 175 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 2: This is the boat that you're going to be living 176 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 2: on for three years minimum, right, Okay, so just can 177 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 2: you just quickly describe the boat? What did the boat 178 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 2: look like? 179 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: So wave Walker was a very beautiful boat. 180 00:09:57,880 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 2: The Wavewalker. That's brilliant. 181 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: The name of the boat, wave Walker is the name 182 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: of the boat, name of the book as well. Actually, 183 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: in fact, our Dingy, which is the little boat that 184 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: you'd take to go ashore, we named ripple Runner quite appropriately. 185 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: I went for a number of them over the years, 186 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 1: ripple Runner, one, two, three, I think we got up 187 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: to about eight. But anyway, wave Walker was the name 188 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: of the boat. And she was a very beautiful boat. 189 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: She looked very old fashioned, with a big bowsprit, this 190 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: thing at the front which kind of extends over the water, 191 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: and what's called a poop deck at the back, which 192 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: is like a slightly raised deck like one of those 193 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: old kind of galleons. She was quite long, sixty nine feet, 194 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: but that includes about nine foot for this bowsprit, which 195 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: is basically like a kind of plank of wood at 196 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: the front. And she was very narrow so down below, 197 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: although she wasn't small and she had good headrooms you 198 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: could stand up down below, there wasn't a lot of space, 199 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: you know. There was only really one working bathroom. There 200 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: was a second one, but it never worked. So one 201 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: working bathroom, one working toilet or head as they're called 202 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: on a boat. There was one little kind of sofa 203 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: area that you could sit on which would sit about 204 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: four five people, which is where I would sit trying 205 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: to dodge the waves. And then my parents had a 206 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: cabin at the back of the boat at the stern, 207 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: and my brother and I had bunks that we slept in, 208 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: and over time, as we had kind of crew on board, 209 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:36,199 Speaker 1: we would share cabins with the crew because you know, 210 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: there wasn't enough space to have your own cabin, so 211 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: I never had my own cabin. It's interesting since the 212 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: book came out, I've actually met relatively recently one of 213 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: the people who helped to build Wavewalker before my father 214 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 1: bought her, and he said to me, Suzanne, you need 215 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: to realize this boat was never built to sail around 216 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: the world. This boat was built as a holiday boat, 217 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 1: a very beautiful, almost like a kind of historic replica 218 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: type boat, and she was designed to sail in waters 219 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 1: around the UK. She was never designed to sail around 220 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: the world. 221 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 2: Wow. So it's a good job you didn't know that 222 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,599 Speaker 2: at the time. Now, at the time you're dodging waves, 223 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 2: your life is literally turned upside down. Talked to me 224 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 2: about the storm that you got into from quite quite 225 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 2: an early stage where you ended up in a really 226 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 2: really bad state physically and then psychologically thereafter. 227 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 1: Yes, So what happened was we set south from the 228 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: UK and sailed down to South America. And just to 229 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: give people a bit of context, that takes about five 230 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: or six weeks at sea. It's a very long way. 231 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: And after that first very difficult week which I described, 232 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: actually things got a bit better. Eventually my mother reappeared 233 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: after about three four days. The weather got a bit better, 234 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: and we saw a whale, we saw flying fish. You know, 235 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: there are beautiful things about being at sea. It got 236 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: pretty tricky as we had as we got close to 237 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: South America because we started to run out of food, 238 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: so that was tough. Then we set sail from South 239 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: America to South Africa, and that was another difficult crossing, 240 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: partly because we lost our compass part way through. It broke, 241 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 1: so we were a danger of circling around and around 242 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: around the South Atlantic. And I should also explain that 243 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: we were sailing the wrong way around the world. So 244 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: my father not only was he sailing a boat that 245 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:42,839 Speaker 1: was not designed to go around the world, but he'd 246 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: also chosen to go the most difficult way around the world. 247 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: So most people who sail around the world, they sail 248 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,319 Speaker 1: from east to west, and if you sail east to west, 249 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: you go kind of near the equator and the windsor 250 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,559 Speaker 1: behind you. But because my father had chosen to follow 251 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: Captain Cook's the void, Captain Cook went the other way. 252 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: He went from west to east, and to go west 253 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: to east you have to go very far south to 254 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: catch the winds. So that was why we went all 255 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: the way down to South America and then across the 256 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 1: Southern Atlantic Ocean to South Africa, and then we set 257 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: sail across the most dangerous ocean in the world, which 258 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: is the Southern Indian Ocean from South Africa to Australia. 259 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: And that is a huge ocean. And not only is 260 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: it a huge ocean, but it's a huge ocean with 261 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: almost nothing in it. I mean, it's a very very 262 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: empty ocean. And I should say that by that point 263 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: on board, you have myself, I'm still seven, my brother 264 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: who's six, my mother who's still getting very badly seasick 265 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: and hate sailing. My father and my parents are falling 266 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: out with all of our original crew, and the new 267 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: crew are two guys who just happened to come down 268 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: to the wharf just before we set sail from South 269 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: Africa and they never sailed before. 270 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 2: What was the routine because like you said, you're weeks 271 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 2: into this voyage. Now took me through the daily routine 272 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 2: on ship? Or it would it differ every day. 273 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: So I would wake up in the morning kind of 274 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: crawl my way out of the bunk because on this 275 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: voyage across the Southern Indian Ocean, we're in a storm 276 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: almost from when we leave port. So the boat is 277 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: healed over, tilted over on an extreme angle on its side, 278 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: so my bunk is either way up in the air 279 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: or it's way down kind of at the bottom of 280 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: the cabin. So you're either climbing your way out of 281 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: your bunk or you're levering yourself out of your bunk 282 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: and then kind of falling across the cabin, so you 283 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: get out of bunk, and then making my way into 284 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: the main cabin and trying to find something to eat 285 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: because most of the time there were no adults, because 286 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: what happens to a boat when you're sailing like that 287 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: is the adults are either on the wheel or they're sleeping, 288 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: you know, so, and then most of the day my 289 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: brother and I would hang on down below, you know, 290 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: brace ourselves by the table, try to find things to do. 291 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: We would make up games, you know, I had my 292 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: soft toys and he had hiss and we each had 293 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: a kind of kingdom and we tried to kind of 294 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: make up games that we would play. But basically we're 295 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: on our own most of the time. We weren't certainly 296 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: on that voyage, we were barely allowed on deck because 297 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: it was too dangerous. So the only time that you 298 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: would see outside was when somebody would open the hatch 299 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: to come down below or go back up on deck, 300 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: and they would walk past, take their wet weather gear off. 301 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: You would have a kind of brief conversation with them, 302 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: and then that was it. So a very strange world 303 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: for a little kid to live in. You know, you 304 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: can't go outside, you can't run around, you can't see friends. 305 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: You're basically on your own most of the time. 306 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 2: And there was a responsibility of you. When did you 307 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,360 Speaker 2: really start to take care of your brother as well? 308 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 2: Was that was that later on or you know, or 309 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 2: or did you do that from the very get go? 310 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: I think from pretty early on. Actually, I mean, people 311 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: talk about the fact that, you know, girls tend to 312 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: be a bit more mature than boys early on, and 313 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: I was a year older than him. And as I say, 314 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: my mother was often kind of absent, either seasick, which 315 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: she would be for the first three or four days 316 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 1: of every voyage, so she would disappear altogether, or she 317 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: was you know, taking her role in doing watches. So 318 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: I was generally kind of left in a kind of 319 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: quasi parental position with my brother. But we would also 320 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: play together, particularly when we were in that kind of 321 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: early phase, we would do less so later on when 322 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: things became much more difficult on. 323 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 2: Board and take me to now take me to the star. 324 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 2: So this is quite bad. Take me back to when 325 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 2: you realized that it was. It was seriously bad. That 326 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 2: something is you know, it's something you know, a state 327 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 2: of emergency basically was happening on the ship. 328 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, we went from what I was getting 329 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: used to, which was being in a storm and the 330 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 1: boat being on a big heel and kind of going 331 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: up and down through the waves, to a position where 332 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,919 Speaker 1: the waves outside were enormous and I now know the 333 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: waves outside were thirty forty feet high and the boat 334 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: was surfing down the waves and then coming up, and 335 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: of course I'm experiencing this as a little kid down below, 336 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 1: and what you can feel is the boat kind of 337 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: tipping forward and then tipping backwards, and then at the 338 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 1: top of the wave kind of keeling over and kind 339 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: of dropping down. And you can also see it in 340 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: the kind of eyes of the kind of adults as 341 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: they come downstairs. People were getting very frightened about the 342 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 1: situation that we were in and the fear that if 343 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: the boat, if we lost control of the boat, she 344 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,719 Speaker 1: could be flipped over by a wave. This went on 345 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: for about two days, just kind of holding on basically 346 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: down below. Eventually what happened was a huge wave came 347 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 1: up behind the boat. My father has described several ways, 348 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: probably combined together. They broke over the stone the back 349 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: of the boat, smashed through the deck of the boat, 350 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: and created a huge hole in the deck above. The 351 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,959 Speaker 1: table went out through the side of the hole. I 352 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: was standing down below at the time. My mother had 353 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: just come down below and we hadn't eaten for some time, 354 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 1: so she told me to come and help her try 355 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: to get some food. So I was standing next to 356 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,199 Speaker 1: her in the galley, and I was picked in the 357 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: galley of the kitchen, and I was picked up and 358 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: thrown against the ceiling of the cabin, fractured my skull, 359 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: broke my nose thrown against the kind of wall of 360 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: the cabin, and I ended up kind of conscious on 361 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: the floor of the cabin. And the boat almost sank. 362 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: I mean, the boat started filling up with water, because 363 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: as you can imagine, you've got a big hole in 364 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: the decks. Every further wave that hits the boat just 365 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: kind of funnels down below, and the boat is filling 366 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: up with water. I mean, I come to and I 367 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: find myself in a bunk. Somebody's shoved me in a 368 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: bunk in one of the forward cabins, and I have 369 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: a huge lump on my forehead which is growing and growing. 370 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: It's extremely painful. We were incredibly lucky because we would 371 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: not have stayed afloat long enough to get to Australia, 372 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: and the boat was so weak we couldn't have gone 373 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: We couldn't have turned around and gone back into the wind. 374 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: We were too the boat was too weak to do that. 375 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 1: We were very lucky to stumble across a tiny island 376 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: called our l Amsterdam, which is in the middle of 377 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 1: the Indian Ocean, and on that island is a small base. 378 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 1: And I describe all of this a lot more on 379 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: the book, because that base is a very mysterious place, 380 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: a very strange place. But it did have a little 381 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 1: tiny doctors. It had a doctor and a little tiny 382 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: surgery there. And he operated on my head and saved 383 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: my life because otherwise, he told me, and I've contact 384 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: I contacted him when I was writing, I would have 385 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: ended up with brain damage. Yeah, I had a huge 386 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: swelling on my head which he had to kind of 387 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 1: sort out. But unfortunately he had to do that without 388 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: any anesthetic, because you can imagine on a tiny island 389 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: in the middle of the Indian Ocean, there was no 390 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 1: general anesthetic. And you can't what was the island used for. Well, 391 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 1: as I said, it's a bit of a mysterious place. 392 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 2: I can't tell you. 393 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: It has a small has a small French quasi military 394 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: scientific base on it. We were told not to walk 395 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 1: around the island without supervision. They were certainly doing lots 396 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: of scientific experiments, sending up kind of weather balloons and 397 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,160 Speaker 1: things like that, but frankly, we weren't going to ask 398 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: any questions. Had we not found the island, we would 399 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: have we would have died. And I owe my life 400 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: to this doctor, doctor Sennelart, who operated on me seven 401 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: operations on my head and saved my life because otherwise 402 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: that the pressure from this swelling would have caused god 403 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: of brain damage. 404 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 2: Over what period of time? How long would you end 405 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 2: up saying? 406 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 1: Therefore, so we end up being on the island I 407 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: think for about six or seven weeks with them. 408 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 2: And they fed you, they gave you water, they did 409 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,639 Speaker 2: they did so they literally saved your lives. 410 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: They did save our lives. They did save our lives. 411 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: And of course, being a French base, when these scientists 412 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: were dropped on this island and they would have a 413 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: kind of change over every year of the scientists they were, 414 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: they were left with plenty of nice French cheese, nice 415 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: French wine. So we ate very well. Though I also 416 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: remember at one point they tried to feed us wild cat, 417 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 1: which my mother and I refuse to refuse to eat. 418 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: I mean, conditions on this island were pretty basic, but 419 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: I had these head operations and my mother refused to 420 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: come in for these operations because she doesn't like the 421 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: sight of blood, so I had them on my own, 422 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 1: and of course I was conscious. So now I'm a 423 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,360 Speaker 1: seven year old kid, I've been through the storm, I'm 424 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 1: now frightened at the ocean, and I've had this very 425 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 1: traumatic experience of these head operations. So I'm beginning to 426 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: question whether everything my father has told me about this 427 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: voyage is really correct. 428 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 2: The Benny drops is like, this is not quite what 429 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 2: I've been kind of told, right, wow, So I can 430 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 2: only imagine. And this is why it's so fascinating. Ultimately, 431 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 2: shipwrecked let us call it shipwrecked on this island always 432 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 2: you're getting this medical attention, and is is your father 433 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 2: trying to fix the boat? What's happening with the boat? 434 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: So my dad is trying to patch up the boat 435 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: enough to get it to Australia. I mean there were 436 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,360 Speaker 1: very limited facilities on this island. I mean it's basically 437 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: a volcanic atoll in the middle of the Indian Ocean, 438 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: so there's no shipyard or anything like that. But he 439 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: hammered metal across the holes and the boat, and then 440 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 1: the French government and the British government basically said that 441 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 1: my mother and my brother and I were not allow 442 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 1: back on board because it was too dangerous. If my 443 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: father wanted to put his own life at risk, that 444 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: was his choice. So eventually he set sail with these 445 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: two poor novice crew, Larry and Herbie, off to Australia, 446 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: leaving my mother and my brother and I on the island, 447 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: and we were eventually kind of rescued from the island 448 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: by a passing containership that picked a up and took 449 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 1: us to Melbourne. 450 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 2: Do you know what the question pops into my head? 451 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 2: And excuse me if this is this is insulting or 452 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 2: if I've overstepped the mark, but I must ask. It 453 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 2: was your father, Okay, did he did he suffer from 454 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,479 Speaker 2: any sort of mental health issues or what? You know? 455 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 2: What did he want to do? You know, to to 456 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 2: leave you on the island and be so fixated on 457 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 2: what I'm completing this journey or doing this journey. It 458 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 2: seems like there's there's something going on upstairs with with 459 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 2: with your father. I don't know if you'd know now 460 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 2: if you knew at the time, but it seems like 461 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 2: that he's, uh, yeah, he's not on the same page 462 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 2: as as as you all are. 463 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a very interesting question. And something I didn't 464 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: really ask myself at the time. I mean, I just 465 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: assumed that all fathers were like this. You know, my 466 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 1: father had his mission, which was to sail around the world, 467 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: and that was the only thing that he was focused on, 468 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: you know, so everything was in order to achieve that, 469 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: and as I say, when we first set out, he 470 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 1: kind of painted it as a as a kind of 471 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: moral you know, or kind of noble quest. It became apparent, 472 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: I have to say it had already started to become 473 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 1: a parent even by this point, but it became increasingly 474 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: apparent then actually we weren't following Captain Cook, or at 475 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 1: least not properly. So for example, Captain Cook, I said 476 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: we went down to South America. Captain Cook did not 477 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: go to South America on his third voyage. So I 478 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,919 Speaker 1: now have a theory that what my father was trying 479 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: to do was he wanted to be a hero and 480 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 1: he found a reason to do this voyage, which was 481 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: to follow Captain Cook around the world, which generated a 482 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: lot of press interest at the time when we first 483 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 1: set sail from the UK. It also, by the way, 484 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: meant that he could get some sponsorship from the voyage 485 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: because we weren't particularly wealthy, but I think his motivation 486 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: was to be a hero, you know, to be kind 487 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: of famous, to you know, somehow kind of prove himself 488 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 1: in the world, and that for him was his overriding motivation. 489 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 2: You're on this island with the with the French, your 490 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 2: father's patched the boats up away. He goes, what's the 491 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 2: game plan from that moment that you wave goodbye to 492 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 2: your father? 493 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: So the game plan had been that somehow my mother 494 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: and my brother and I were going to get rescued 495 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: by a passing ship and meet my father in Australia. 496 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: But I was very worried. I mean I was, even 497 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: at that age, I was very you know, I was 498 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: closer to my father than to my mother, who I 499 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: viewed my father as a bit of a hero. My 500 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: mother was always quite cold as a mother. I mean 501 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 1: I mentioned that she didn't even come in when I 502 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: had these operations, and she certainly wan and a heroic 503 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: figure to me. So I was worried about being left 504 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: on this island and no obvious way to escape. But 505 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: we did. We found a kind of passing boat that 506 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 1: kind of took us to Melbourne and we met my father. 507 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 2: How do you do that, because how do you find 508 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 2: a passing boat? Is it radio communications? Is it? Yeah? 509 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 2: Are you on their radio? They're on their radio systems, 510 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 2: and you're like, if you're passing by this island and 511 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 2: you're going to Australia, please can we can we hit you? 512 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: Please? 513 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 2: Really? Yeah? 514 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: No exactly. So the so the island was putting out 515 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: kind of radio calls and and then actually and you 516 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: know again, it's a kind of it's a whole story 517 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: within a story. It's not easy to get off a 518 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: kind of volcanic adol onto a container ship. So there's 519 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: a whole story there about how we were taken out 520 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: into the ocean by the small supply ship that supplied 521 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: the island, and then we had to kind of get 522 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 1: down into a tiny boat in the middle of the ocean, 523 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: go across the waves to this container ship and then 524 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: up the side of the container ship on one of 525 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: these kind of moveable ladders. And content ships are huge, 526 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: of course, so that was a that was a pretty 527 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: kind of frightening experience. My mother was petrified, absolutely petrified, 528 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: but we did. We got to Melbourne. We met my 529 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: dad back at Fremantle. We flew from Melbourne to Fremantle, 530 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: and we spent almost a year in Fremantle repairing the boat. 531 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: And then of course my dad is insistent that we're 532 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: going to keep saying. 533 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 2: That year that you're in Fremantle, Susan, do you start 534 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 2: to realize that actually you're you're missing out on a 535 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 2: whole different childhood, that there's there's a whole different life 536 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 2: out there, there's a whole normal life out there. And 537 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 2: and does it scare you to get back on want 538 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 2: to get back on the boat and continue this journey 539 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 2: with your father and your family. 540 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: Yes. So while we were in Freemantle, I was able 541 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: to go to school for a little while at a 542 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: little school in Fremantle, and that reminded me what that 543 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: was like. I mean, first of all, I was always 544 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: quite an academic kid. I always love learning, so going 545 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: back to school and being able to do that, but 546 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,959 Speaker 1: also having friends again, you know, I remember kind of 547 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: making friends. Music was always a very big thing for me. 548 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: So I remember, and I'm about eight at this point, 549 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: you know, being in the school band. So all of 550 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: those wonderful things again that I could do. But of 551 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: course I knew it was time limited. As soon as 552 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: the boat was ready, my father would want to sail again. 553 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: And by this point I'm frightened of the sea, and 554 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: kind of probably an even bigger thing is I no 555 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: longer trust that I'm going to be safe on the 556 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: boat with my father, because you know, when I set 557 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: off from England, I had this naive view that, you know, 558 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: nothing bad could happen because my father was heroic, so 559 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: it would all be okay. But of course that's gone now, 560 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: you know, and now I don't. Now I no longer 561 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: believe that. 562 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 2: And that's a big thing. That's a big step, because 563 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 2: you know, you lose trust, You ultimately lose faith in 564 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 2: the person that you think is it will protect you 565 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 2: at all costs, no matter how big the storm, how 566 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 2: ugly or dark the nights are, and all of a 567 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 2: sudden that's whipped away from you. 568 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: That's right now. One good thing happens at this point, 569 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: which is we get three new crew members in Fremantle. 570 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: I mean, as usual, they've got no sailing experience whatsoever. 571 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: But one of them, who I call mister Ray. My 572 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: mother used to insist that we call any adults mister. 573 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: So mister Ray is a lovely man, you know, a 574 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: very gent twenty something, and he becomes almost like a 575 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 1: kind of father figure or older brother figure to me. 576 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: He's a lovely man. Mister Ray and I are still 577 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: in contact today and he remains as lovely today as 578 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: he was then. And he is on board for about 579 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: four months. He eventually has to leave because he can't 580 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: afford to keep and my father always insisted the crew 581 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: had to pay to be on board, and mister Ray 582 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: could not afford to stay on board very long because 583 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: he didn't have very much money, but that those kind 584 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: of four months of him being on board were really 585 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,959 Speaker 1: important because he was very kind to me. But he 586 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: has said that when we set sail again from Fremantle, 587 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: he remembers looking at me and he remembers seeing how 588 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: frightened I was about going back to see Apparently. I 589 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: used to walk around and I used to carry because 590 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: we didn't have very many toys on board, particularly kind 591 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: of after a shipwreck when a lot of things got lost, 592 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: but we did have a chess set. I don't remember 593 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: ever really playing chess ver much, but I used to 594 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: play with the chess pieces. I used to kind of 595 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: make up games with them, but particularly the White Queen 596 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: and apparently I used to walk around the boat carrying 597 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,719 Speaker 1: the White Queen and I would talk to the White Queen, 598 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: and he thinks that this was a way of me 599 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: trying to kind of feel a bit more secure. You know, 600 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: I had like a friend that. 601 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 2: I was a survival mechanism of defense, mechanism that helped me, 602 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 2: helped you through. So when you get back on the boat, 603 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 2: how long is it until you crave being you know, 604 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 2: back to being a normal kid, until you want to 605 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 2: go back to the normal life. And when does that 606 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 2: moment hit? And did you you know, do you remember 607 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 2: that moment? Was it something that triggered that or was 608 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 2: it a case of just a you know, it just 609 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 2: happened over time and you just got, know, got to 610 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 2: that stage where you are enough's enough. 611 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: Well what happened is is after that year in Fremantle, 612 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:11,280 Speaker 1: we kept sailing, you know, notionally or baguely, following Captain 613 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:16,280 Speaker 1: Cook all the way you know, around Australia, New Zealand, 614 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,760 Speaker 1: up the South Pacific to Hawaii. And by that point 615 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 1: we've been sailing for four years. It took Captain Cook 616 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,879 Speaker 1: three years, took us four years because of the one 617 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 1: year after the shipwreck, and that was kind of the 618 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: end of the Captain Cook's third voyage because he was 619 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 1: killed in Hawaii, and so that should have been the 620 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 1: end of our voyage, and we were do to come 621 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: back then through the Panama Canal back to the UK, 622 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: and everything was going to go back to normal. But 623 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: I began to realize in Hawaii that my father was 624 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 1: changing his mind. He didn't want to come back anymore, 625 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 1: and he delayed and delayed and delayed in Hawaii, and 626 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: eventually in Hawaii he said, right, we're going to have 627 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 1: a vote on what we do and either going to 628 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: go home going east through the Panama Canal, or we're 629 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: going to turn west and we're going to go back 630 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 1: down the Pacific again and keep sailing, which would be 631 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 1: a wonderful thing, wouldn't it. It was very clear where 632 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,879 Speaker 1: his pay I did not want to keep sailing. I mean, 633 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 1: by that point I was now so we've been at 634 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: sea four years, so I'm now eleven. I don't have 635 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,879 Speaker 1: any friends on this boat because it's just us. I'm 636 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: not going to school, so I wanted to come home. 637 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 1: You know, this was a you know, the kind of 638 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: atmosphere on board was increasingly kind of unpleasant. We had 639 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 1: no money, no friends. So we had a vote, and 640 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 1: my father had always said that these votes were binding, 641 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,280 Speaker 1: you know, he'd always had this kind of mythology around 642 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: the voyage. One mythology was this was a big, noble 643 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 1: thing that we were doing. The other mythology was we 644 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: were all doing this together, and we'd all chosen to 645 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: do it together. Now, of course I hadn't said no 646 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 1: at the start, but I've been seven, I mean, and 647 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 1: I hadn't even said no when we kept sailing in Australia, 648 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 1: but I mean, i'd still only been kind of eight. 649 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: But this time I'm eleven, twelve, I say no, I 650 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: want to come home. I vote against going on, and 651 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: my brother votes to come home as well, and my 652 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:24,240 Speaker 1: parents inevitably vote to keep sailing. And then my father 653 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 1: does something that changes everything, which is he says, this 654 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: isn't a democracy. I have the casting vote, and we're 655 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 1: going to keep sailing. And at that moment everything changes 656 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 1: because this is no longer a choice. I'm trapped on 657 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,360 Speaker 1: this vote. I'm here against my will. I have no 658 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: choice anymore. I mean, I'm not sure I had a 659 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,360 Speaker 1: choice before. It's just at that moment it crystallized that 660 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 1: I had no choice. And then what happened was we 661 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 1: turned and we sailed back down the Pacific. We have 662 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: no money. So my father by this point is taking 663 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,399 Speaker 1: crew on board who not just like mister Ray who 664 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,479 Speaker 1: was contributing to his food, but now these are people 665 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 1: who are coming on board for like paid holidays. And 666 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: I'm increasingly as the girl, and I should say there's 667 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: a real kind of gender split on the boat, so 668 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: my brother isn't really expected to do very much. He's 669 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,800 Speaker 1: the boy, so he can help a bit on deck, 670 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: but you know, he's the I'm afraid we did have 671 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 1: a kind of golden child Cinderella thing that started to 672 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 1: kind of emerge at this point, and my brother and 673 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: I separate from kind of playing together as kids, now 674 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: were treated very differently. I'm expected to kind of cook 675 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 1: and clean down below with my mother for these crew 676 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: for hours each day, because you know, by the time 677 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: we have six or seven crew on board, that's a 678 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: lot of work, mainly men as well, and I'm a 679 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 1: teenage girl, so you know, conditions are really uncomfortable, and 680 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 1: my relationship with my mother is not getting any better. 681 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: We eventually get to Australia. I go briefly to school 682 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,320 Speaker 1: in Australia, and then I realized that I've got to escape. 683 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: I've got to find a way to get off this 684 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 1: boat because and it's not easy to work out how 685 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 1: to do that because I don't have a passport, I 686 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,879 Speaker 1: don't have any money, I have no contact with any 687 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: of my relatives back in the UK. I've had no 688 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 1: contact with them since we left. I'm an illegal alien 689 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: wherever we are, you know, because my citizenship is kind 690 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 1: of the UK. Although at that point I don't even 691 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: have a passport. I'm just on my So I hit 692 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,839 Speaker 1: on the idea that if I could educate myself, maybe 693 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,920 Speaker 1: I can convince the university somewhere to let me in. 694 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 1: And where I get this idea from, I guess I 695 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: kind of know that I'm intellectually curious, but I think 696 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,840 Speaker 1: it's just I couldn't think of anything else. So I 697 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 1: convince my parents to let me start to study by correspondence. 698 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: It's not easy because of course we don't have an address. 699 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: So each time we get to a port, I run 700 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 1: to the post office. I post off the lessons back 701 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 1: to Australias. In Australia, in course, I asked my father 702 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 1: where we're going to go next. Sometimes he'll tell me. 703 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: Sometimes he'll tell me and then he'll change his mind. 704 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: So lots of this stuff never came back. But I 705 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: will then, like you know, send the lessons back to 706 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 1: post Restant Tahiti or Samoa or wherever he thinks we're 707 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: going to go next. And then, of course on the boat, 708 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: it's very hard to work because most of the time 709 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 1: I'm cooking and cleaning, so I'm having to hide in 710 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,880 Speaker 1: those moments when I'm not working up in the bowsprit 711 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 1: at the very front of the boat, which is where 712 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 1: the most violent movement of the boat was. And so 713 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 1: my mother, who always got seasick, didn't really like going 714 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: up the front of the boat. So I was pretty 715 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 1: kind of safe hiding up there, and I would hide 716 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,359 Speaker 1: inside a sail and that's where I would work. And 717 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 1: what's really stranger is into an outside eye, this would 718 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: have looked like paradise. There we are on this boat 719 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,919 Speaker 1: that although she's getting very tired by this point, she's 720 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,719 Speaker 1: still a very beautiful boat. Was say in the South 721 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:05,360 Speaker 1: Pacific Islands with kind of palm trees and white sandy beaches, 722 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: but the reality on the boat was completely different. 723 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,880 Speaker 2: Wow, and was it? And when you were writing these letters, 724 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,360 Speaker 2: was there a glimmer of hope as well? Were you 725 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:16,880 Speaker 2: always clinging on to hope? 726 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,759 Speaker 1: I was? I mean I was doing the education for 727 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: two reasons. Is it was something I could control in 728 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,280 Speaker 1: a world where I could control almost nothing. And secondly, 729 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: I hoped it would get me out. And then eventually, 730 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,879 Speaker 1: when I was sixteen and my brother was fifteen, so 731 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 1: we're now nine years of sailing, my parents leave us 732 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 1: in New Zealand. They want my brother to go to 733 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,120 Speaker 1: school because they're worried about his education, as my father 734 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 1: at one point tells me, you know, he's a boy, 735 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: so he'll have to support a family one day. So 736 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 1: I'm left to look after my brother in New Zealand, 737 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 1: which was always my role as the girl, and they 738 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,240 Speaker 1: keep sailing, they leave us behind. I'm on a temporary visa. 739 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 1: They keep on trying to deport me, and we're just 740 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: surviving in a very basic it's called a batch in 741 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 1: New Zealand, a kind of basic kind of holiday home. 742 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,239 Speaker 1: But I keep on studying and I then start to 743 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:20,360 Speaker 1: write every university I've heard of in the world, asking 744 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,799 Speaker 1: if they will consider me, and most of them write 745 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,400 Speaker 1: back and say no. You know, they write back and say, 746 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 1: you know, sorry, but you know this is you're just 747 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: too weird. You're just too weird. And then amazingly Oxford 748 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,240 Speaker 1: University wrote back and they said, write us a couple 749 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 1: of essays and we'll think about it. And so I 750 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 1: wrote them a couple of essays. I wanted to study zoology, 751 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,959 Speaker 1: by the way, inspired by all the animals that we'd 752 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 1: seen on the boat. And they wrote back and said, 753 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: if you can get to the UK, we'll interview you. 754 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 1: So I went out and I picked kiwi fruit, which, 755 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: by the way, is a very unpleasant job, but it 756 00:41:58,560 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 1: is a job that you can do without a v 757 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,239 Speaker 1: in New Zealand. And that got me enough money for 758 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,480 Speaker 1: a one way ticket and I got on a plane 759 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,319 Speaker 1: and came back to the UK for that interview. And 760 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 1: I now look back and I think there wasn't really 761 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 1: a plan B. I had a kind of Plan A. 762 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:16,840 Speaker 1: There was no Plan B. What was I going to 763 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: do if I didn't get in? But amazingly they did 764 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,240 Speaker 1: let me in and that completely turned around my life. 765 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:28,919 Speaker 1: When I found actually, actually it sounds a bit weird. 766 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,120 Speaker 1: I had anticipated that academically this was going to be 767 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,280 Speaker 1: very difficult, and socially it was going to be wonderful. 768 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 1: What I found at Oxford, putting aside the money issues 769 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,760 Speaker 1: that I had because of my parents, what I actually 770 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,760 Speaker 1: found was the opposite that. Actually, academically it was tough, 771 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 1: but the one thing I'd learned how to do in 772 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: my childhood was how to study, how to be kind 773 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 1: of motivated, how to be disciplined. That I was really 774 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,000 Speaker 1: good at. What I found really difficult at Oxford was 775 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,319 Speaker 1: the social side. I found it really difficult because we 776 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 1: had I had nothing in common with all these other kids, 777 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,040 Speaker 1: and so that took some time for me to figure out. 778 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 1: But I did my degree in the end, and then 779 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,640 Speaker 1: I did a PhD. I went to Cambridge, did a PhD, 780 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 1: and then I go on and have my career. I 781 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:20,960 Speaker 1: go from there into the UK Government, and then I 782 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,880 Speaker 1: go from there into McKinsey, which is a consulting company, 783 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 1: and there to where I go now. And for a 784 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,719 Speaker 1: long time I didn't think about my past until eventually, 785 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 1: by this point I've become a mum myself, I have 786 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 1: three kids. I decide I need to kind of write 787 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,400 Speaker 1: the story that you know, just looking at my kids, 788 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:43,279 Speaker 1: I can no longer excuse everything that happened, and I 789 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,880 Speaker 1: want to tell the story. I want to get across 790 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 1: two things. One is, I want to start a debate 791 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,320 Speaker 1: about where are the rights of kids versus the rights 792 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:56,080 Speaker 1: of parents? Where is that boundary? And I want to 793 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,600 Speaker 1: stop people assuming that you know, parents who take kids 794 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,680 Speaker 1: out of society, that this is always just a wonderful thing. 795 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,880 Speaker 1: You know, we should question some of that. I'm not 796 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,239 Speaker 1: saying it's never a bad it's never a good thing. 797 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:09,759 Speaker 1: And I think some of that is a good thing, 798 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:14,719 Speaker 1: but you know, these extreme parent parenting is often not 799 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 1: very good for the kids. And then secondly, which is 800 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,799 Speaker 1: a message more for kind of kids than parents. It's 801 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,280 Speaker 1: just I it sounds a bit obvious, but the power 802 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 1: of education. I mean, I went from sitting in a 803 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: boat with no future whatsoever, trapped on that boat to 804 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 1: where I am now, and the only thing that did 805 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 1: it was education. 806 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:39,240 Speaker 2: That's a powerful message within itself. And you know, Susan Hayward, listen, 807 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,040 Speaker 2: I'm going to be getting your book and I've got 808 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 2: one final question. And I'm not sure if you've ever 809 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,560 Speaker 2: been asked this before. But and I don't know if 810 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,440 Speaker 2: you know, but do you ever know what your father 811 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:51,600 Speaker 2: was running from? 812 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,640 Speaker 1: He was so I don't know. He grew up very 813 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,279 Speaker 1: poor in a mining village in the UK. And I 814 00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,759 Speaker 1: think his f who I never met because he died 815 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,680 Speaker 1: quite early of lung cancer, he was a minor coal miner, 816 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,960 Speaker 1: was quite a kind of violent man. I think my 817 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:12,480 Speaker 1: father was running well, not so much from, but to 818 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,400 Speaker 1: this idea of becoming a hero. That's what he was 819 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,760 Speaker 1: trying to do, I think. And he had a massive 820 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,440 Speaker 1: chip on his shoulder from this kind of very poor, 821 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,920 Speaker 1: very difficult background, and this was a way to transform himself, 822 00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:33,080 Speaker 1: I think. But I don't know. I've never really been 823 00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,800 Speaker 1: able to get him to explain the motivation. But that's 824 00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,600 Speaker 1: as far as I can work it out. That's what 825 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:40,040 Speaker 1: it was. 826 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,880 Speaker 2: Okay, Susan, listen, Thank you ever so much for joining me. 827 00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:45,200 Speaker 2: It's been an absolute pleasure. I could talk to you 828 00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:49,960 Speaker 2: for hours. Listen wave Walker the book, Go and get it. 829 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 2: Go and look up Suzanne Haywood follow us story. You 830 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:57,200 Speaker 2: can learn so much from it. Absolute pleasure. Thank you 831 00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:58,080 Speaker 2: so much for coming on. 832 00:45:58,239 --> 00:45:59,200 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 833 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,960 Speaker 2: To find out more about Suzanne's story, pick up a 834 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,799 Speaker 2: copy of our book wave Walker. I'll link the details 835 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,560 Speaker 2: in the show notes. Thanks for listening to this episode 836 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 2: of Headgame. If you enjoyed it, please share it with 837 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 2: a friend. I'm Att Middleton. See you in the next episode.