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Speaker 1: A somber anniversary today, but thirty years ago on this day,

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Speaker 1: the first poker machine started appearing in pubs and clubs

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Speaker 1: and casino around. Say legislation having been passed by one vote,

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Speaker 1: one vote in State Parliament in the lower House to

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Speaker 1: get it through, and it was introduced as a private

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Speaker 1: member's bill so MPs could have a conscious vote on

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Speaker 1: it and conscience vote, and they did that and it

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Speaker 1: passed by one vote in the Lower House. Unreal Nick Xenophon,

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Speaker 1: of course famously no poke's MP for many years here

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Speaker 1: in Essay and in the Senate as well. Good morning, Nick,

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Speaker 1: how are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm alive? And it is a terrible anniversary. It really

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Speaker 2: is a situation where bions and bions of dollars have

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Speaker 2: been lost on poker machines. We have a situation where

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Speaker 2: literally tens of thounds of South Australians have been hurt

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Speaker 2: by poker machines directly or indirectly, and there doesn't seem

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Speaker 2: to be any hope on the horizon in terms of

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Speaker 2: any changes to these machines, which are incredibly addictive. Is

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Speaker 2: to make them much less harmful.

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Speaker 1: What needs to change.

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Speaker 2: Look, I mean, my mantle is no Pokey is that's

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Speaker 2: the easiest and simplest solution. But it's evolved since they're

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Speaker 2: We now have online gambling. Sim Hostello said, you can

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Speaker 2: now lose your home without out the actually having to

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Speaker 2: leave your home. But Pokey's are still I don't have

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Speaker 2: the figures in front of me, but I believe it.

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Speaker 2: It's getting close towards the billion dollars a year. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's eight to nine hundred million dollars a year lost

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Speaker 2: on poking machines in South Australia. And we know from

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Speaker 2: the Productivity Commission, from their landmark report of two decades ago,

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Speaker 2: which is still very valid, that over forty percent of

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Speaker 2: Pokey's losses come from people who are hooked.

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Speaker 3: It's a very addictive.

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Speaker 2: Form of gambling. And you have a situation now where

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Speaker 2: the sort of reforms we need have been stymied around

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Speaker 2: the country. Dominic Perite the Liberal Premier of New South

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Speaker 2: while the former premier ran on a policy the first

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Speaker 2: time major parties done this of having in New South

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Speaker 2: Wales but also in Tasmania has been done have pre

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Speaker 2: commitment on Pokey. In other words, you can't gamble without

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Speaker 2: a card which you load up with the amount of

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Speaker 2: money that you want to lose, and you set a

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Speaker 2: pre commitment each year, but how much you're prepared to lose? Now,

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Speaker 2: the experts day that could slash the amount of gambling

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Speaker 2: addiction by ninety percent, but it would also reduce the

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Speaker 2: revenue of the pubs and clubs by in the order

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Speaker 2: of thirty percent. And that's why there isn't any political

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Speaker 2: will to do it. Because the Pokey's Lobbies in this country,

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Speaker 2: not just in this state, is the equivalent of the

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Speaker 2: National Rightful Association of the US. That's the comparison to

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Speaker 2: be made, because they're incredibly effective, they're incredibly powerful, they're

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Speaker 2: well resourced, and neither major party in this state at

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Speaker 2: least wants to take them on.

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Speaker 1: They'd have a valid argument in terms of jobs, wouldn't they,

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Speaker 1: Because if if changes came in curtailing profits, then surely

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Speaker 1: that would ultimately mean jobs in the sector.

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Speaker 2: Well, the argument on jobs isn't valid there. They Center

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Speaker 2: for Economic Studies did research on this a number of

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Speaker 2: years ago, and it found that every million dollars lost

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Speaker 2: on pokes created about three jobs, whereas a million dollars

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Speaker 2: spent in hospitality can create up to seventeen jobs. In

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Speaker 2: terms of going to a cafe, to a restaurant, retailing,

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Speaker 2: you create many more jobs than you create from poke machines.

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Speaker 2: So if there's going to be any economic dislocation, and

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Speaker 2: something that I've thought about previously when I was involved

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Speaker 2: in politics, you would have a transitional arrangement. You would

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Speaker 2: make sure that people would not be would any jobs

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Speaker 2: that were curtailed or lost, that you would have a

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Speaker 2: scheme in place so that those people could find work

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Speaker 2: in other sectors. Because the less money spent on Pokey's

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Speaker 2: means more money spent in other sectors the economy, economy,

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Speaker 2: and it means more jobs. And by the way people

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Speaker 2: are talking about the jobs lost from poke machines, I

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Speaker 2: didn't hear too many complaints when small businesses that were

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Speaker 2: hit for six because of the introduction of pokem machines,

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Speaker 2: they shared jobs in retailing and hospitality. So you know,

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Speaker 2: this is about the common good and the economic good

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Speaker 2: of the state, all.

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Speaker 1: Right, So it's up to governments. But as you say,

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Speaker 1: no stomach for change, no stomach can change.

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Speaker 2: But it won't go away as an issue, Matthew, because

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Speaker 2: the fact is people are still being hurt by Pokey's.

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Speaker 2: What's changed in thirty years is there are other forms

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Speaker 2: of gambling. And you know, the paradox is I was

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Speaker 2: on a unity ticket with the Hotels Association because they're

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Speaker 2: concerned about online gambling now, probably for their self interest,

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Speaker 2: but online gambling sports betting is hurting a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: About Pokey's are still the bedrock of damage that's been

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Speaker 2: caused in this state from gambling.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, indeed, all right, Nick xenoph, I appreciate your

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Speaker 1: time this morning.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, thanks for your interest.

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Speaker 1: Let's have a chat with Simon Schapel Uniting Communities and Simon,

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Speaker 1: good morning. Thanks for coming on. I imagine your body,

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Speaker 1: your organization would have dealt with many people over the

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Speaker 1: thirty years affected directly by poties.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, good morning, Matthew. And to your listeners, Yes, unfortunately

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Speaker 3: we have and we continue to have, and you know,

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Speaker 3: this is no anniversary to be celebrating today. And you know,

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Speaker 3: I think the prospects of more people being harmed, you know,

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Speaker 3: as a result of their addictions in the end, and

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Speaker 3: it is an addictive product, unfortunately, is only going to

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Speaker 3: actually continue into the future. And you know, we're deeply

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Speaker 3: disappointed that you know, after lots of reports that have

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Speaker 3: talked about not just highlighted what the harms have been

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Speaker 3: for people, and it's also been quite frank you know,

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Speaker 3: most of our pokies are in areas, our poorest communities,

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Speaker 3: and you know, at one level we could pretty argue

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Speaker 3: that pokies are praying on the poor and it is

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Speaker 3: disproportionately hitting that proportion of the community that can afford

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Speaker 3: at least to Pokey's and unfortunately becoming addicted to pokey.

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Speaker 3: So you know, there have been lots of reports that

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Speaker 3: not only talked about the harm, but what could be

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Speaker 3: done to reduce that harm by bringing in measures. I

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Speaker 3: think Nick's touch on a couple of those pre commitments,

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Speaker 3: you know, maximum bet levels, but also just the reduction

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Speaker 3: of machines. You know, there was I think eleven years

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Speaker 3: ago that the government made a commitment to reduce the

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Speaker 3: number of pokey machines in South Australia. We're nowhere near

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Speaker 3: reaching out eleven years later, and you know, I think

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Speaker 3: it just proves the point that if you are really

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Speaker 3: serious about it, you've got to take strong action and

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Speaker 3: not just you know, hope that the industry itself will

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Speaker 3: take those opportunities to bring in those reforms themselves.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Simon, got a text to you from Andrews says

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Speaker 1: women are disproportionately affected by pokey losses and gambling than men.

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Speaker 1: You talk about the poor being the victims here, can

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Speaker 1: we break it down into genders like that? Are women

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Speaker 1: worse affected by this or hit harder? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I think there is some evidence to support that claim.

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Speaker 3: I haven't actually looked at the data more recently in

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Speaker 3: relation to the gender breakdown, but you know, we know

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Speaker 3: that this sort of form of gambling and I mean

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Speaker 3: it talked about other forms and another industry that hotels

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Speaker 3: in particular, has said well, look, you know we've got

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Speaker 3: to keep this and we've got to be able to

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Speaker 3: maintain these these options because otherwise people will only drift

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Speaker 3: off to other forms of gambling and sports betting. And

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Speaker 3: we know that probably disproportionately targets younger men. But you know,

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Speaker 3: sitting down in a pub having a drink and sitting

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Speaker 3: at a at a pokeing machine, you know, it does

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Speaker 3: unfortunately impact you know, certainly. You know we've got many

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Speaker 3: more of these machines in poorer communities. It's you know,

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Speaker 3: it's seen as a form of entertainment at one level,

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Speaker 3: but at the end of the day, it is insidious

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Speaker 3: and it impacts people in ways that they never imagine.

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Speaker 3: And you know, people aren't putting limits on what they're

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Speaker 3: actually putting into the machine. It's not just going and

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Speaker 3: having some fun. It is something that then becomes very

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Speaker 3: addictive and mean their money to the point where they

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Speaker 3: then need to seek assistance, you know, from organizations like

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Speaker 3: uniting communities and others, because they don't have sufficient funds

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Speaker 3: to be able to pay for those essential house side items,

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Speaker 3: you know, whether that be rental, whether that be even

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Speaker 3: putting food on the table.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, Nick Xenophon mentioned that you've touched on it too,

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Speaker 1: the online sports betting. The fact you can lose your

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Speaker 1: house without leaving your house these days by gambling online.

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Speaker 1: Is that that is the new frontier, isn't it. I Mean,

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Speaker 1: Pokey's sure they're causing damage still, but it almost feels

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Speaker 1: as if the worst of that is behind us and

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Speaker 1: we've got this new front to tackle these days. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Certainly, those those online forms are having a huge impact,

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Speaker 3: particularly with younger people and sports betting, and you can

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Speaker 3: just see the way that the advert to targeted at

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Speaker 3: younger people, and you know we've called for reforms in

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Speaker 3: that space too, but no mistake, Pokey's continue to be,

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Speaker 3: you know, a significant form of gambling choice for many people.

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Speaker 3: Just looking at the figures more recently in terms of

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Speaker 3: gambling losses, it did debate a bit during COVID, I

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Speaker 3: mean not surprisingly because people were hable to get out

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Speaker 3: to pubs and clubs, but it's shot right back post COVID.

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Speaker 3: I think the most recent figures for twenty two twenty

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Speaker 3: three nationally were over three billion dollar losses and that's

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Speaker 3: up almost a billion dollars from the previous year, so

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Speaker 3: it is still a significant It has a significant impact

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Speaker 3: on Australians and particularly it so out Australians in our

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Speaker 3: poorer communities.

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Speaker 1: What is it about them? I mean we hear the

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Speaker 1: flashing lights of machines being addictive, and people, I suppose

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Speaker 1: they've had a minor win, keep coming back for more,

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Speaker 1: and that's essentially it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, I think there's this mistaken belief that you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to be able to make money out of this,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to have a winner. That's what they're designed

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Speaker 3: to do. But of course they calibrated to do quite

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Speaker 3: the opposite, and those are the design the machines have

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Speaker 3: been very clever. Looking at the bright lights, the shining lights.

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Speaker 3: You know when you do have a win that it

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Speaker 3: makes lots of noises, and you know it's those sorts

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Speaker 3: of mechanisms that are deliberately designed into the machines to

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Speaker 3: try and keep people putting more and more money into them.

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Speaker 1: And three billion you think what that would have done

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Speaker 1: in the community in other areas, but lost to a

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Speaker 1: handful of businesses, casinos, hotel, you is, whatever it is,

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Speaker 1: but gone absolutely.

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Speaker 3: And of course the problem we have, and I think

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Speaker 3: Nick might attached on this too, is that the successive

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Speaker 3: governments have become addicted themselves to the revenue they get.

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Speaker 3: So it's not just I mean those losses are you

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Speaker 3: know for mums and dads and people in our communities

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Speaker 3: that are actually losing that money, But the government is

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Speaker 3: actually making money out of a revenue it gets from

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Speaker 3: the taxation from this. So it's probably you know, the

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Speaker 3: fundamental reason why it hasn't actually had the gunction to

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Speaker 3: make the reforms that many have been asking for for years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, indeed, Simon appreciate your Insights. Thank you, Thank you,

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Speaker 1: Simon Schrapel Communities Uniting Communities eight double two three double

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Speaker 1: O double OW is the number thirtieth anniversary today of

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Speaker 1: poker machines introduced in South Australia. Connie Bernaros is called

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Speaker 1: in SA Best Upper House MP Hi, Conny.

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Speaker 4: Hi, Matthew, Good morning to here and good morning to

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Speaker 4: your listeners. Nick and Simon have both hit the nail

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Speaker 4: on the head this morning, and Matthew, there certainly hasn't

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Speaker 4: been any appetite whatsoever by the major parties for poke

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Speaker 4: machine reforms. If anything, we've gone backwards in the last

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Speaker 4: three years we introduced NOE accepts into South Australia. We

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Speaker 4: know that if you look at the figures around poker

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Speaker 4: machines for those last three years, the jump has been

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Speaker 4: significant and just touching on one of the points that

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Speaker 4: you made it a moment ago with Simon, poker machines

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Speaker 4: are not just a gambling choice. They are still the

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Speaker 4: single most dangerous gambling form for problem gamblers, and like

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Speaker 4: Nick said, the majority of pokemon machine losses still come

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Speaker 4: from problem gamblers and that's where we're failing. The buyback

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Speaker 4: scheme in South Australia has been an abysmal failure and

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Speaker 4: a target that we know we've not been up to meet.

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Speaker 4: And if you go to other casinos or other places

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Speaker 4: in Australia now there is no way of gambling on

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Speaker 4: a POKEM machine unless you have signed up, you've been invested,

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Speaker 4: you've provided ID and you have entered into a mandatory

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Speaker 4: pre commitment scheme. And that's what we need to be

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Speaker 4: moving towards here in Soustralia. If we don't do that,

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Speaker 4: those figures and government has become addicted to that revenue,

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Speaker 4: they're getting something like four hundred and twenty four hundred

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Speaker 4: and thirty odd million dollars right now and that number

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Speaker 4: has increased. That's just going to continue.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is kind of unfortunately unless you know politicians

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Speaker 1: as a whole, except the few of you who are

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Speaker 1: on this page already get together and all agree to

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Speaker 1: do something about it. Thank you for your time.