WEBVTT - David McBride on being sent to prison

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<v Speaker 1>David McBride, it's a huge day for you.

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<v Speaker 2>It is It's D Day.

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<v Speaker 1>How are you feeling.

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<v Speaker 3>I feel like I left it along the field in

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<v Speaker 3>the sense that I am. I don't like to admit it,

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<v Speaker 3>and perhaps there's a solder, but yeah, I'm pretty tired.

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<v Speaker 3>I've been emotional last week. Small things have upset me.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's a good thing in some ways because it

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<v Speaker 3>means that I've really gone as hard as I can

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<v Speaker 3>to achieve what I wanted to achieve. But I can't

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<v Speaker 3>say that, you know, whatever happens today. Put it this way,

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<v Speaker 3>it'll be hard to choke back the tears because it's

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<v Speaker 3>while it's not going to be completely over today, it

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<v Speaker 3>is the end of a pretty long phase. And yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>it's emotion is going to come out either way.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. Whistleblower

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<v Speaker 4>David McBride has been released from prison on parole after

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<v Speaker 4>serving twenty seven months for leaking classified defense documents to journalists.

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<v Speaker 4>Those documents helped expose allegations of war crimes by Australian

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<v Speaker 4>soldiers in Afghanistan. Years on. Is still the only person

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<v Speaker 4>to be jailed over the Afghan files, the alleged perpetrators

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<v Speaker 4>roaming free as the person who revealed them sat behind barks. Today,

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<v Speaker 4>asber Bride walks free from prison, we're returning to an

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<v Speaker 4>interview Ashley McGhee recorded with him just before he was

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<v Speaker 4>jailed and while he leaked those documents, whether he had

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<v Speaker 4>any regrets, and how Australia keeps its secrets. It's Sunday,

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<v Speaker 4>August sixteenth. This was first published in May twenty twenty four.

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<v Speaker 1>David, I just want you to take me back to

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<v Speaker 1>twenty eleven. First, you're in the Army Legal Corps posted

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<v Speaker 1>to Afghanistan. Back then, what did you think about the.

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<v Speaker 2>War when you're a soldier and I always wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>be a soldier, love being a soldier, and if there

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<v Speaker 2>is a war, your country is fighting and you want

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<v Speaker 2>to be a part of it. I had a bit

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<v Speaker 2>of a dichotomy. I'd been to Afghanistan in two thousand

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<v Speaker 2>when the Talabama running it as making documentaries. I've seen

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of the developing world, and I'd also been

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<v Speaker 2>in the British Army before that, so I came with

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<v Speaker 2>a fair bit of I guess I was realistic. I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't think it was going to be perfect, but I

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<v Speaker 2>had doubts about the larger scale things in that we

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<v Speaker 2>we were saying we were winning when that wasn't at

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<v Speaker 2>all clear, and I suspected it was a case of

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<v Speaker 2>just put out the good news message. And politicians came

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<v Speaker 2>to visit. The Prime Minister ju Leguillard came and the

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<v Speaker 2>leader of the opposition as he was then, Tony Abbott,

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<v Speaker 2>came and we told them how good everything was going,

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<v Speaker 2>and I felt uncomfortable about that position.

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<v Speaker 5>Leader Tony Abbott has visited Australian soldiers serving in Afghanistan

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<v Speaker 5>and it calls for more troops and equipment. Mister Abbott

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<v Speaker 5>encouraged the troops to speak candidly about the situation on

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<v Speaker 5>the ground. I stand in humble or of those who

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<v Speaker 5>don't just risk their reputations but have put their lives.

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<v Speaker 2>On the line every day for our country. So I

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<v Speaker 2>had my doubts about the bigger pictures in the war

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<v Speaker 2>to say how much of this is window dressing for

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<v Speaker 2>domestic political audiences and how much of this is actually

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<v Speaker 2>trying to do a good job and actually improve the situation.

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<v Speaker 1>So you're watching all of this happen. Was there a

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<v Speaker 1>particular thing that happened in your work environmental that crossed

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<v Speaker 1>your desk, that really was a turning point for you.

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<v Speaker 2>There was actually I've forgotten all about it, but when

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<v Speaker 2>I wrote my book in twenty eleven, even there was

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<v Speaker 2>something happened and I one of the jobs is the

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<v Speaker 2>lawyer is to go and visit the prisons, the Afghan

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<v Speaker 2>presence and to make sure that people we have captured

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<v Speaker 2>are not been mistreated. And someone was brought into me

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<v Speaker 2>and as he started explaining his story, it was clear

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<v Speaker 2>that he hadn't been captured by the Australians. But before

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<v Speaker 2>he'd finished, he said, oh, I've been beaten with it,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. He showed me his hands and he said,

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<v Speaker 2>I was hung up by the roof of the present

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<v Speaker 2>with manacles or left there all day and then came

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<v Speaker 2>out with an iron bar and bashed me around the head.

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<v Speaker 2>And he had scars. He had still fresh scars on

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<v Speaker 2>his hand and fresh scars on his hands. Now, as

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<v Speaker 2>I legal for some under the Geneva Convention, you can't

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<v Speaker 2>ignore that. So even if he wasn't my prisoner in

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<v Speaker 2>the sense that he hadn't been captured by the Australians,

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<v Speaker 2>this was a reasonable allegation of abuse, and when I

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<v Speaker 2>got back to base, everyone went into a bit of

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<v Speaker 2>a panic, which surprised me. It seemed to be implied

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<v Speaker 2>to me that I needed to just turn the other

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<v Speaker 2>way about this. So it was only a small thing,

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<v Speaker 2>but considering what we now know about what went on,

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<v Speaker 2>but it was indicative of to say, don't look under

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<v Speaker 2>any rocks, don't find out about anything, because we don't

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<v Speaker 2>want bad news stories now. Then in twenty thirteen, they

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<v Speaker 2>put out a sort of change in the rules of

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<v Speaker 2>engagement and it said something like basically, it was a

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<v Speaker 2>very one page thing and it said don't murder at

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<v Speaker 2>the bottom. And I said, what's this about, because according

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<v Speaker 2>to all our reports, there hasn't been There hasn't been

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<v Speaker 2>a single trial, And why are you putting out this

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<v Speaker 2>if everything's okay, why are you reminding people with this

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<v Speaker 2>new thing saying don't murder? Has something happened? And I

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<v Speaker 2>was told no, no, no, no, And I just thought that

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<v Speaker 2>was strange, what something's going on? And then in twenty thirteen,

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<v Speaker 2>suddenly having not had a single criminal investigation during a

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<v Speaker 2>very turbulent period where we now know that no want

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<v Speaker 2>a walk on we were investigating everything. It looked like

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<v Speaker 2>we were pretending to care, but we weren't really caring

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<v Speaker 2>because we weren't investigating some things which looked kind of suspicious.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I just started asking questions, and then we

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<v Speaker 2>in September, when I was over there, there was a

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<v Speaker 2>guy who'd done what many soldiers had done met before.

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<v Speaker 2>He was just defending himself, and there wasn't It wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>so much that I had it some sort of crystal ball,

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<v Speaker 2>or I was in love with him or anything. There

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<v Speaker 2>was no evidence to suggest this was a murder. I said,

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<v Speaker 2>this is strange, and I didn't know what was up.

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<v Speaker 2>But I suspected that the investigations in twenty thirteen were

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<v Speaker 2>window dressing for the media in order to say look

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<v Speaker 2>over here, don't look over there. There was whispers that

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<v Speaker 2>there would been in twenty twelve, there had been a

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<v Speaker 2>kill count competition to see he could get a ass

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<v Speaker 2>killed count and a certain soldier in one and they

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<v Speaker 2>also put the kill counts on the door each.

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<v Speaker 1>Day when they reiterated the rules of engagement. In twenty thirteen,

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<v Speaker 1>in the context of all these rumors, whispers, seeing that

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<v Speaker 1>kind of kill count on the door, there. Why I

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<v Speaker 1>raise an issue with them reiterating that it sounds like

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<v Speaker 1>maybe that was what was needed at time.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, why didn't they investigate the allegation. If they think

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<v Speaker 2>someone's done something, you should investigate it.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you ever raise that up the chain and say, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>here's what's going on.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I didn't know, and I was a lawyer with

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<v Speaker 2>a very good career, and I wanted to keep it.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a perfect job for me. I loved that

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<v Speaker 2>it was half half lawyer, half soldier, and I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>particularly want to rock the bout it. I suspected something

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<v Speaker 2>big was up.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you feel like some soldiers were being scapegoaded when

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<v Speaker 1>other soldiers were actually the ones that were doing the

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<v Speaker 1>really bad stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I absolutely felt that. I felt like they didn't

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<v Speaker 2>want certain famous soldiers to come under any investigation because

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<v Speaker 2>they thought that that might These were people that were

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<v Speaker 2>popular and that would cause as a lot of funerals,

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<v Speaker 2>so they wanted some non entities to be able to

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<v Speaker 2>sort of punish. I began to believe that that was

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<v Speaker 2>exactly what was happening. My goal was always to say

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<v Speaker 2>the leadership to be investigated, and I still think they

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<v Speaker 2>should be investigating I think they probably knew about Ben

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<v Speaker 2>Robert Smith, and I think they were doing window dressing

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<v Speaker 2>in two thy and thirty. Bad soldiers are a problem

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<v Speaker 2>and we have to get with, but bad leaders are

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<v Speaker 2>a much bigger problem. I knew even when I was

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<v Speaker 2>there that I was going to make a complaint that's

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<v Speaker 2>something with them. And it took me a while because

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<v Speaker 2>I knew it would have to be good, and it

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<v Speaker 2>would have to be well resourced and have a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of documents attached to it to explain what I was doing,

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<v Speaker 2>and to be relatively carefully worded. As I said, I

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<v Speaker 2>wanted a result, and so after hours, I would stay

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<v Speaker 2>late and I would look through the files looking for

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<v Speaker 2>things to show that.

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<v Speaker 1>Was it putting your career at risk?

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<v Speaker 2>It was putting my care It is, but the job

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<v Speaker 2>of the Defense Force is to protect Australia from threats.

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<v Speaker 2>If we have leaders who are completely political and dishonest,

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<v Speaker 2>we are not doing our jel.

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<v Speaker 1>And so in preparing that report for leadership, that's very

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<v Speaker 1>different to going public with that same information. Talk to

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<v Speaker 1>me about when you decided it was something you wanted

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<v Speaker 1>the public to know about.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it took a while. I needed a partner, a

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<v Speaker 2>good investigative journalist to look into the political site, to

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<v Speaker 2>get a source in the minister's office, to find out

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<v Speaker 2>where the email trials, what they said, if there was

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<v Speaker 2>anybody who gave anything away in anyone within the suits

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<v Speaker 2>I guess the Parliament and of things who knew what

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<v Speaker 2>was going on, called shed light. So I wanted a

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<v Speaker 2>really good investigative journalist not to put the documents online,

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<v Speaker 2>but to start looking into.

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<v Speaker 1>It when you did give them to the ABC. To

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<v Speaker 1>Dan Oaks, a former colleague of mine at the ABC,

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<v Speaker 1>what did you think when the ABC published that story?

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<v Speaker 1>What was your first reaction to it?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I was disappointed with a story because it was

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<v Speaker 2>it was okay, it was good that something was happening.

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<v Speaker 2>So that was good that something was happening. I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>particularly like the emphasis on this or only on the

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<v Speaker 2>soldiers and not on the leadership. I would have been

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<v Speaker 2>happy if they'd done both. But well, the leaders have

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<v Speaker 2>a case to answer about whether they knew was going Some.

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<v Speaker 1>Of your critics say that you never set out to

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<v Speaker 1>expose war crimes in the first place.

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<v Speaker 2>What do you make of that, Well, what's a war crime?

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<v Speaker 2>You know? If they say I was never out to

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<v Speaker 2>expose bad soldiers. They've got a point. I think the

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<v Speaker 2>two things are linked. I think more crimes are already

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<v Speaker 2>part of the story, But the biggest story is who

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<v Speaker 2>knew what and when they knew it. It's not about

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<v Speaker 2>the last war, it's about the next one. If we

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<v Speaker 2>don't have honest, trustworthy people who really play with a

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<v Speaker 2>straight bat in charge about offense thoughts, we're not actually defended.

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<v Speaker 1>Probably after the break, what has life been like for

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<v Speaker 1>David McBride as he awaits his sentence. David, you ended

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<v Speaker 1>up pleading guilty to three charges, and you face sentencing today,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's been months since you entered that guilty play.

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<v Speaker 1>What's the weight being like?

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<v Speaker 2>Up and down? You know, I've got no money, I've

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<v Speaker 2>lost my job, I've lost all my savings. I've lost

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<v Speaker 2>I've lost lot. You know. I like the sort of

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<v Speaker 2>person I've become, but I don't I don't recommend it

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<v Speaker 2>if you want an easy ride, it's not a way

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<v Speaker 2>to celebrity. Put it that way.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you fear going to prison?

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<v Speaker 2>I usually yeah. I've got a bit of a dichotomy

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<v Speaker 2>about that. I don't fear the four walls. So much. Obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>if you're prepared to put your life on the line

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<v Speaker 2>for the military, you're prepared to die for your country.

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<v Speaker 2>So I guess you can't complain about being put into prison.

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<v Speaker 2>And in some ways, you know, they say you've got

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<v Speaker 2>to live your life like it's your last. I never

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<v Speaker 2>really did that before, and now the last couple of

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<v Speaker 2>years at least, I have done that. Every time I

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<v Speaker 2>watch a movie with my daughter, I really savor the experience,

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<v Speaker 2>and we play a lot of video games together, and

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<v Speaker 2>I love that. I was always a pretty affectionate dad anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'm more so now. I can't them an as

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<v Speaker 2>they can't just say nice things to them. I guess

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<v Speaker 2>I want them to remember me well. And it's because

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<v Speaker 2>I really do love I love every minute with them.

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<v Speaker 2>I spend a lot of time with my dog. One

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<v Speaker 2>of the hardest things is going to be missing out

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<v Speaker 2>with my dog, Jake. I'm secretly hoping I can get

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<v Speaker 2>him as registered as an assistance dog so he can

0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:24.920
<v Speaker 2>come in with me.

0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:31.240
<v Speaker 1>So, given everything that's about to happen today, when you

0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:33.800
<v Speaker 1>return to court to be sentenced, do you have any

0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.160
<v Speaker 1>regrets about leaking those documents?

0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:42.280
<v Speaker 2>This is the question look, I don't. I don't. I'm

0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:46.000
<v Speaker 2>trying to get accountability at the top that hasn't happened yet,

0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:49.520
<v Speaker 2>saying that if I hadn't done what I've done, it

0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:54.640
<v Speaker 2>never would have happened. And my conscience as such that

0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:57.160
<v Speaker 2>I had to do something. I did the best that

0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:02.400
<v Speaker 2>I can in the circumstances, and I'm proud of myself

0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:04.360
<v Speaker 2>for standing up. I didn't even know whether I could

0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:05.080
<v Speaker 2>do it myself.

0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:17.560
<v Speaker 1>So in the years since this started unfolding, we've seen

0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:20.320
<v Speaker 1>the release of the Burton Report, which recommended the AFP

0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:25.720
<v Speaker 1>investigate thirty six matters for potential prosecution. Do you think

0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:28.080
<v Speaker 1>we'll ever see these crimes prosecuted.

0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:32.720
<v Speaker 2>It's a good question, and I don't know. And some

0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:34.360
<v Speaker 2>of my friends put it that way. Some of my

0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:38.120
<v Speaker 2>friends say, who are also sort of on my side

0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.600
<v Speaker 2>of Offen's agitatus, they say that the purpose of the

0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:44.560
<v Speaker 2>Breton Report was to put the International Criminal Court off

0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:48.640
<v Speaker 2>and to make sure there are no investigations. It does

0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:53.600
<v Speaker 2>seem strange that ten years, eleven years, probably fifteen years

0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.680
<v Speaker 2>after some of these things happened, that we still haven't

0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:59.160
<v Speaker 2>We've only had one person charge and he was charged

0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:03.880
<v Speaker 2>as a result of video and the apparently that a

0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:07.480
<v Speaker 2>broken reports made it harder for people to actually be charged.

0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:10.280
<v Speaker 2>And I don't know if that was the that was

0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:12.560
<v Speaker 2>the idea of it, but it is a bit I

0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:16.720
<v Speaker 2>think it is. It's unsatisfactory that we haven't had more

0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:20.000
<v Speaker 2>charges yet now that we might not get conventions, but

0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:21.800
<v Speaker 2>we really do need to get on with it.

0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:24.720
<v Speaker 1>I've heard a lot of words used to describe you,

0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:31.080
<v Speaker 1>David McBride. I'd so nice, I'm not so nice. I've

0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:36.800
<v Speaker 1>heard whistleblower, trader, hero, showman. What words would you use

0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:38.040
<v Speaker 1>to describe yourself?

0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:40.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, I'm a soldier. I mean you have to

0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:42.120
<v Speaker 2>be a bit of a showman. You're not going to

0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:45.560
<v Speaker 2>get you're not going to get accountability justice if you

0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:50.280
<v Speaker 2>just unless you grewd it a fuss. So I do

0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:52.520
<v Speaker 2>get that a lot, but it's like you've got to

0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:54.080
<v Speaker 2>do what you've got to do in order to get

0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:59.200
<v Speaker 2>a result. And trader, Yeah, well, I mean I don't

0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:01.640
<v Speaker 2>think I'm a trader, but in the sense that I

0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:05.359
<v Speaker 2>am out to try to make the Defense Force defend Australia,

0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:09.160
<v Speaker 2>So I don't think it makes me a trader. So yeah,

0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:11.919
<v Speaker 2>I'm doing what I can to make this country a

0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:13.919
<v Speaker 2>bet of place. I don't think anyone can say that

0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:18.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm not trying to do what is right, and maybe

0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:21.360
<v Speaker 2>if there is an inquiry, I will achieve what I'm

0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:26.919
<v Speaker 2>wanted to achieve. People might not like it, but my

0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:28.600
<v Speaker 2>conscience is pretty happy with that.

0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:33.280
<v Speaker 1>David, thanks so much for the chat today.

0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:34.600
<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:43.840
<v Speaker 4>Seven am, and will be back tomorrow with an episode

0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:47.199
<v Speaker 4>on why. For the first time in generations, Australia is

0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:49.440
<v Speaker 4>being asked to think seriously about how it will cope

0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:52.600
<v Speaker 4>with a major war, not just whether our military is ready,

0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:56.439
<v Speaker 4>but whether our civilians, supply chains and economy are prepared

0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:59.560
<v Speaker 4>as well. We speak with Sam Rogavin, director of the

0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:04.520
<v Speaker 4>lawyingitu's International Security Program, about what Australia is actually preparing

0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:07.960
<v Speaker 4>for and how far that preparation could go well.

0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.200
<v Speaker 6>I mean, one model is something like you see maybe

0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:14.159
<v Speaker 6>in Finland or in Israel, where effectively it means you

0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:18.040
<v Speaker 6>are to a degree militarizing the entire society, so you

0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:21.879
<v Speaker 6>have universal conscription. North Korea is another example of that,

0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:24.840
<v Speaker 6>perhaps a slightly more immidious example, where when you take

0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:27.919
<v Speaker 6>it to an extreme, it ends up impoverishing really the

0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:31.160
<v Speaker 6>entire society. That's one end of the spectrum I think

0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:34.240
<v Speaker 6>for Australia will never reach those levels. I know there

0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:37.000
<v Speaker 6>are some people who are calling for a reintroduction of conscription,

0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:41.000
<v Speaker 6>but really in the short to medium term probably what

0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:46.239
<v Speaker 6>it looks like is a national capability to withstand a

0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:48.639
<v Speaker 6>pressure campaign against Australia.

0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:50.919
<v Speaker 4>I'm Daniel James. Thanks for listening.