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Speaker 1: Justin Brewer, Welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I haven't done podcasts for

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Speaker 2: a while, so this is fun cool.

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Speaker 1: The last time we met was at the Happiness Conference.

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Speaker 3: You've just reminded me where you not only introduced me

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Speaker 3: because you were a MC, but you spoke at it

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Speaker 3: as well, which you've just said you wouldn't recommend because

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Speaker 3: you're just juggling different balls.

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Speaker 1: What did you speak about? Tell our listeners what you

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Speaker 1: spoke about.

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Speaker 2: I've spoken at that a couple of times.

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Speaker 4: I think I actually did something quite different, which was

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Speaker 4: an eyes closed process.

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Speaker 2: So it actually gave the.

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Speaker 4: Presentation asking people to close their eyes and just consider

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Speaker 4: how their brains work and how much information we actually

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Speaker 4: consume in a day. So rather than lots of slides

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Speaker 4: and people who are desperate to you know, capture it

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Speaker 4: all taking photos of the slides, actually ask people to

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Speaker 4: close their eyes and just allow their mind to sort

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Speaker 4: of go back to the nineties.

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Speaker 1: Almost interesting.

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Speaker 3: How did you find when you ask people to close

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Speaker 3: their eyes? And I know it's it's probably hard at

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Speaker 3: the Happiness Conference because we're on a big stick. Could

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Speaker 3: you see people and could you see if they were

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Speaker 3: closing their eyes or.

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Speaker 2: Not even look to be honest.

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Speaker 3: And did you have your eyes closed in your presentices

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Speaker 3: re reading it?

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Speaker 4: Because it's basically a way to cheat a bit too,

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Speaker 4: when you want to do something different and you haven't

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Speaker 4: memorized your entire keen. Yeah, and because mine changed all

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Speaker 4: the time. I actually am terrible at memorizing things because

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Speaker 4: there's so many bits of information in my head about

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Speaker 4: all of these different topics. But I always invite people

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Speaker 4: to close their eyes. I know for some people that's

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Speaker 4: not particularly safe. But also at something like happiness and

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Speaker 4: its causes, which ultimately is run by you know, the

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Speaker 4: Vajoyana Institute, and it's full of two are probably very

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Speaker 4: very good at meditating and being mindful processes. Yeah, most

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Speaker 4: people kind of take that opportunity, and I guess I

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Speaker 4: also just don't give them anything to look at. So

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Speaker 4: whether or not you're staring at this, you know, at

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Speaker 4: me being a dot on the stage, or you know

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Speaker 4: the kind of emptiness behind me, you are not you know,

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Speaker 4: smashing that visual cortex full of more information. That often

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Speaker 4: is kind of I mean a lot of what I

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Speaker 4: talk about is how much information we're consuming and what

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Speaker 4: impact that's having on ultimately a really ancient operating system.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And we will dive into the reason

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Speaker 3: I asked you if you could see the audience because

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Speaker 3: when I do corporate talks, not all of them, but

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Speaker 3: in some of them, I ask people to close their

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Speaker 3: eyes and go to and there are I would say

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Speaker 3: just roughly fifteen to twenty percent of people.

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Speaker 1: Who don't close their eyes.

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Speaker 3: And it's really quite interesting, right that they just don't

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Speaker 3: feel comfortable with their eyes shut. But anyway, we're not

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Speaker 3: going to dive into the psychology on this. So you

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Speaker 3: are a psychologist, but you interesting. What caught my eye

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Speaker 3: is you are interested in cyber psychology, which is something

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Speaker 3: that is I think interesting for all of us, and

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Speaker 3: particularly now with the social media ban with the under sixteens.

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Speaker 3: I'm just going to introduce this actually because I want

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Speaker 3: to read just an article that I have just been reading, right,

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Speaker 3: social media use trajectories and cognitive performance in adolescents. Right,

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Speaker 3: So they looked at six and a half thousand adolescents

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Speaker 3: at age nine to thirteen years. Some of them had

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Speaker 3: very low social media use, which was half an hour

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Speaker 3: day or less, and then some of them had low

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Speaker 3: but in increasing social media use, which sort of increased

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Speaker 3: from the age of nine at about half an our

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Speaker 3: day up to over and r at the age of thirteen.

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Speaker 3: And then they had the third group of high social

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Speaker 3: media use, which increased from about the age of nine

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Speaker 3: about half an our day or right up to more

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Speaker 3: than three hours at the age of twelve and thirteen.

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Speaker 3: And they looked at aspects of cognitive performance and a

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Speaker 3: number of different validated cognitive performance tests, and you will

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Speaker 3: not be surprised to hear that there were.

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Speaker 1: Low, even low.

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Speaker 3: Levels of early adolescent social media exposure were linked to

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Speaker 3: poorer cognitive performance. And this paper suggested this massage suggest

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Speaker 3: support for stricter age restrictions, right.

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Speaker 4: Can I point out though, that already under thirteen should

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Speaker 4: not be on social media?

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Speaker 2: Social media really, you know.

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Speaker 4: Like if we had have just started by banning it

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Speaker 4: for under thirteens, which is really what the terms of

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Speaker 4: service already say.

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Speaker 2: We know that those.

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Speaker 4: Little brains, you know, you're ultimately watching lots of TV

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Speaker 4: really really quickly. There's not a lot of creativity that

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Speaker 4: goes into that. It's just mindless scrolling and what I

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Speaker 4: would call often digital dunk food. If we haven't curated

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Speaker 4: to make sure that some of what we watch might

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Speaker 4: be actually you know, beneficial.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you can get into that, but.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, we will, we will definitely

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Speaker 3: unpack it. But I just wanted to bring this right

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Speaker 3: up front. Now, you also talk about digital nutrition. You

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Speaker 3: know that that's your big thing. So how did that start?

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Speaker 3: How did you, as a psychologist go okay, this is

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Speaker 3: an area that I'm going to start specializing in.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it all started when I was a high school teacher.

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Speaker 4: So I was teaching at a selective boys' school in

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Speaker 4: Sydney and I got into the New South Wales Department

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Speaker 4: of Ed's School Counselor Retraining program. And so as I

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Speaker 4: was becoming a psychologist and had to do my honors thesis,

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Speaker 4: I was like, what should I study? What can I research?

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Speaker 4: And the principle said to me, you should work out

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Speaker 4: what's going on with boys and games. It was two

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Speaker 4: thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, and we were

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Speaker 4: handing out laptops to every kid in year nine across

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Speaker 4: Australia when we hadn't really taught teachers how to teach

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Speaker 4: with technology. We were just crossing our fingers and hoping

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Speaker 4: that they'd be engaged, and they were because they were

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Speaker 4: hacking the flyward wall on those laptops to play all

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Speaker 4: sorts of games. So that's how I got into it

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Speaker 4: in yeah, two thousand and nine when I wrote that thesis.

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Speaker 4: Then and then I just was like a dog with

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Speaker 4: a bone, because I was realizing, as a thirty two

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Speaker 4: year old who'd gotten a smartphone, that this was having

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Speaker 4: a really big impact on me, that my own habits

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Speaker 4: and social media use were getting a bit wobbly. And

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Speaker 4: I had like this, you know, apparently fully developed brain.

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Speaker 4: So I started looking to digital detoxing, and that actually

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Speaker 4: sounded to me like a real problem, like yoyo dieting

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Speaker 4: and all of the culture stuff that was like really

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Speaker 4: gross at the time, and I guess still is. And

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Speaker 4: then I thought, well, what if we actually flipped this

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Speaker 4: and started thinking about how can what we do with

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Speaker 4: technology nurture us so that we can be well and

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Speaker 4: be connected rather than this binary notion of one is

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Speaker 4: good and one is bad, and pofline is better and

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Speaker 4: outdoor is better and all of these sorts of things,

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Speaker 4: because technology is so embedded in our lives, and that

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Speaker 4: really doubled down obviously in COVID and in lockdowns where

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Speaker 4: quite frankly, thank goodness we had that technology, so we

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Speaker 4: didn't absolutely go about shit crazy, I mean to what

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Speaker 4: you know further because of what happened there, So we

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Speaker 4: obviously are then paying for that.

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Speaker 2: And with the young people who have.

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Speaker 4: Come through, who really were products of those lockdowns and

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Speaker 4: their technology, you's got really really ingrained again because no

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Speaker 4: one had stopped to teach media and digital literacy or

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Speaker 4: digital wellbeing or any of really the skills that we

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Speaker 4: need to know how to navigate this, you know, colonization

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Speaker 4: of digital technologies into our life.

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Speaker 3: And so let's talk about overall digital stuff, right, so

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Speaker 3: not just the social media, but.

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Speaker 1: The overall exposure to digital because.

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Speaker 3: We're nice seeing and you will see it, and I

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Speaker 3: see it a lot. You're writ in restaurants and there's

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Speaker 3: families there, and the little kid who's one year old,

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Speaker 3: maybe not even has got an iPad and it's the

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Speaker 3: a iPad B a B sitter. What are the pros

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Speaker 3: and cons of that? Short term and long term?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think that's a really important kind of distinction.

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Speaker 4: Is the short term is we get to go and

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Speaker 4: have a nice dinner and our kid isn't winging and

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Speaker 4: wanting to run around or play or all of those things.

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Speaker 4: You might have noticed that young children are not actually

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Speaker 4: designed to be in cafes and restaurants, And the cafes

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Speaker 4: and restaurants are just something I didn't do when I

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Speaker 4: was growing up. You maybe went to the Chinese for

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Speaker 4: a special meal once in a while, but you're on

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Speaker 4: your best behavior, and I think you know again, there's

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Speaker 4: this sense of we want to kind of live a

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Speaker 4: particular life, and we expect kids to be almost seen

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Speaker 4: and not heard, like my grandfather would say to me,

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Speaker 4: rather than they're not.

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Speaker 2: Designed for that.

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Speaker 4: And I literally will only go to a restaurant that

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Speaker 4: my eight year old can run around that and a

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Speaker 4: lot of the pubs and clubs actually have worked out

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Speaker 4: that there's a really big.

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Speaker 2: Market in making sure that their kid friendly, because we

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Speaker 2: really do.

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Speaker 4: I'm in the convenience even when you talk to parents

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Speaker 4: about I have a whole room in my house dedicated

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Speaker 4: to craft and it's messy.

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Speaker 2: It drives me crazy.

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Speaker 4: An iPad is really neat and tidy and containable. But

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Speaker 4: obviously the long term consequences, especially for little ones, is

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Speaker 4: language acquisition. So when you're actually sticking something in between

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Speaker 4: that call and response of how we learn to have

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Speaker 4: a conversation. We actually see some research that says kids

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Speaker 4: actually end up with you know, a thousand words less

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Speaker 4: by the time they go to preschool because we're stickingless. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: because they're still you know, like even if they're not

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Speaker 4: on the iPad, even if we are interrupting that because

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Speaker 4: you're so cute, go do that thing again, or do

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Speaker 4: it again for mummy, and we're interrupting, and we're sending

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Speaker 4: a really big signal that you know, the phone, not

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Speaker 4: my hand obviously is the phone in this case, I

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Speaker 4: don't have my phone with me, you know, is something

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Speaker 4: to be negotiated. And it's like a still face experiment

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Speaker 4: sometimes if you've seen that before, if you know, a

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Speaker 4: parent goes still face, the baby doesn't know what to

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Speaker 4: do because we're seeking that biofeedback and nodding.

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Speaker 3: And that's an interesting I remember and seeing some research

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Speaker 3: around and particularly toddlers in prams, and what we noticed

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Speaker 3: in my wife combents all the time is that you

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Speaker 3: will see parents are walking with their little toddlers and

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Speaker 3: a pram and the parents are on their pilms and

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Speaker 3: that's an issue because the little bob in there wants

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Speaker 3: to see mom or Dad's fiercial expressions, and when they're

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Speaker 3: just there, they can't see them. That's a problem, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Similarly, being in a front facing pram and rather than

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Speaker 4: looking at the world and developing, you know, especially if

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Speaker 4: you're outside developing that you know, your eyes literally the

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Speaker 4: way that the eye wires up. You've got kids with

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Speaker 4: content sitting there, smashing their brains full of really quick content.

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Speaker 4: So the cadence of the you know, what happens in

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Speaker 4: an episode of Poor Patrol, you know, eight minutes is

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Speaker 4: much more than used to happen in an episode of

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Speaker 4: Shera or The Smurfs or whatever we were watching. So

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Speaker 4: even that that, you know, the pace of what kids

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Speaker 4: are consuming and the like, the dramatic tension that needs

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Speaker 4: to be in things is really part of that problem

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Speaker 4: as well. So rather than you know, observing your environment

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Speaker 4: and spotting the bird and all of those things, kids

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Speaker 4: are you know, consuming, consuming, consuming.

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Speaker 1: Which is much more appealing to the brain.

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Speaker 3: All of that fast, right, and then they're not kicking

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Speaker 3: in the environment, which I don't think it's just just

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Speaker 3: around kids like, if you look at movies today, I

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Speaker 3: just can't watch this just there's so much noise and

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Speaker 3: action and it's just an assault on the senses.

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Speaker 1: And then you know, we've got our kids.

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Speaker 3: And we want to watch some all movies and ten

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Speaker 3: and it's in there, gone, this is boring as much.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, my daughter just watched and she's like, when's

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Speaker 4: this going to start? Nothing's happening, and I said, yeah,

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Speaker 4: that's kind of the point though, right, And there's formulas

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Speaker 4: to that, like they're literally to get a show made

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Speaker 4: in Hollywood or for Netflix, and you know all these

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Speaker 4: big things you have to have like twenty eight dramatic

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Speaker 4: tension points in a twenty four minute episode, like a right,

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Speaker 4: there are there's a I can't remember exactly what the

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Speaker 4: formula is, but literally and you know the cliffhangers, and

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Speaker 4: it's more than just the cliffhangers, and you've.

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Speaker 2: Got many more stories that are happening within that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not the same as if even if you

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Speaker 4: go back and you watch mad Men. I really recommend

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Speaker 4: that for a kind of really low cadence pre phone show,

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Speaker 4: to watch that series, which was probably made about between

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Speaker 4: fifteen and twenty years ago now is a really interesting

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Speaker 4: one to compare to some of this you know, high action,

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Speaker 4: dramatic tension stuff that comes out now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think of one of my favorite movies, The

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Speaker 3: Deer Hunter, which two three hours long and takes like

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Speaker 3: an r to build up. Like, there's just no way

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Speaker 3: that my kids would sit in front of the freaking

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Speaker 3: Deer Hunter to start to get hooked into the to

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Speaker 3: the story.

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Speaker 1: But so let's let's let's let's talk about.

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Speaker 3: What what are some of the good things that can

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Speaker 3: come from digital stuff before we completely slam it, right,

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Speaker 3: I think lots of people are increasingly aware of the negatives,

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Speaker 3: But what are some of the advantage whether it's social media,

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Speaker 3: whether it's video games, general TV, what are some of

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Speaker 3: the useful things?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the common things that the people use

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Speaker 4: that can be really useful is YouTube. And the inclusion

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Speaker 4: of YouTube in that social media band was really quite

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Speaker 4: controversial for a number of reasons, one of which is

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Speaker 4: that when you log in and you kind of can

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Speaker 4: train it, you can look at educational content. Right, There's

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Speaker 4: lots of places that have produced really great how to right,

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Speaker 4: and when the Prime Minister says go learn an instrument,

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Speaker 4: many kids would go to YouTube to learn those things,

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Speaker 4: you know, go learn new sport, Well, you go and

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Speaker 4: learn through that, unless, of course you have the resources

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Speaker 4: to have one hundred dollars an hour piano lesson or

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Speaker 4: whatever and such.

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Speaker 3: Just a quick quick point on not just so my

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Speaker 3: little gay Oscar is starting to play golf, right, I

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Speaker 3: took him to have one lesson, but then he's been

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Speaker 3: watching stuff on TikTok about improving golf, which brings up

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Speaker 3: another point which we will get into. Liot that he's fifteen.

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Speaker 3: All of his friends are fifteen. He says he does

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Speaker 3: not know one of them that has not.

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Speaker 1: Circumnavigated the social media band to this point.

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Speaker 3: Now that may be because they're fifteen, but just to

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Speaker 3: underscore the point that there are some benefits, particularly some

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Speaker 3: of the platforms in terms of the education.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely right, and for many people.

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Speaker 4: You have your tiktoks on TikTok, but you've shared it

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Speaker 4: out to YouTube shorts and it's across different platforms, so

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Speaker 4: you know, and there's huge amounts of that, some of

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Speaker 4: which we know with mental health.

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Speaker 2: Is completely wrong.

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Speaker 4: And we've got a lot of people sharing data information

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Speaker 4: but it goes like wildfire and Again, something that I

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Speaker 4: was reading yesterday talked about how the TikTok algorithm actually

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Speaker 4: amplifies mental health content. Then they know that that will

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Speaker 4: go like wildfire. The other thing to say about that, though, too,

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Speaker 4: is that the algorithm in the West is very different

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Speaker 4: to in China. So in China TikTok promotes all of

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Speaker 4: the educational, you know, content there, and they've got moods

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Speaker 4: to make sure that anyone who is influencing on in

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Speaker 4: online spaces actually have doctorates in the topic area they're

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Speaker 4: speaking on wow.

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Speaker 2: So they're actually.

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Speaker 3: So interesting because and I reckon part of it is

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Speaker 3: the Chinese going right, we want we want to control

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Speaker 3: what our population sees because we want our population to

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Speaker 3: be smart and short. And you know what, all this

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Speaker 3: bad ship we can fleck over to the guys.

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Speaker 4: At the West because it's you know, what we would

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Speaker 4: call a weapon of mass distraction.

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Speaker 2: While we're distracted.

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Speaker 4: And dumbing down and confused by a lot of the

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Speaker 4: content there, we're not thinking critically and creatively, we're not

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Speaker 4: connecting with one another. We're actually, you know, Australia today

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Speaker 4: is at risk of super division because we're not actually

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Speaker 4: coming together and sitting you know, holding space with one another,

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Speaker 4: really looking eyed eye. We're you know, scrolling through and

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Speaker 4: doing you know what we'd call the digital disinhibition effect.

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Speaker 4: We're not actually face to face with one another and

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Speaker 4: our humanity a lot of the time.

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Speaker 3: So digital disinhibition is basically by spending time in a

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Speaker 3: digital device. It's the opportunity cost of that that we

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Speaker 3: are not having fierce to fierce interactions which are much richer.

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Speaker 4: And Yeah, and we say and do things that we

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Speaker 4: wouldn't say if we were standing face to face looking

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Speaker 4: at another human.

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Speaker 2: We forget that.

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Speaker 4: Well, we think we're anonymous sometimes and certainly there are

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Speaker 4: some platforms where anonymity is breed some of the most

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Speaker 4: gross stuff that happens. But also we think that we're

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Speaker 4: above the law when it comes to what we say

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Speaker 4: in those online spaces when and again in Australia, you're

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Speaker 4: often not because we have an Online Safety Act which

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Speaker 4: prevents us from being abused in online spaces.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I remember seeing stuff about about bullies online

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Speaker 3: bullies that when they are actually then brought fierce to

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Speaker 3: fierce with the victim and told of the impact that

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Speaker 3: it has, they're kind of like all shit, right, because

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Speaker 3: you don't see the real human you don't. You know,

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Speaker 3: if you're seeing something really nasty to someone fierce, fierce,

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Speaker 3: you see the impact, right Number one, you're not likely

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Speaker 3: less likely to do it.

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Speaker 1: But then it's the impact, just a little diversion because

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Speaker 1: we want to combust it. But I want to do

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Speaker 1: the version.

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Speaker 3: Because we talk about China, there are bad actors in

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Speaker 3: terms of social media, reading some really interesting stuff about

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you saw it about a lot

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Speaker 3: of the MAGA influencers in the United States were actually

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Speaker 3: being paid by Russian bad actors to actually produce their

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Speaker 3: content and essentially and when I heard, I'm like.

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Speaker 1: Okay, now that makes so much sense.

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Speaker 3: Is that that the whether it's Iran or whether it's Russia,

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Speaker 3: they're actually using social media to try to try to

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Speaker 3: destroy the social fabric and democracy and.

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Speaker 1: It's breaking working beautifully, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean it's a propaganda machine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And if you have.

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Speaker 4: The money and the influence, surprise, surprise, within the capitalist society,

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Speaker 4: then you're going to have that influence.

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Speaker 2: And we've seen pushback. I guess.

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Speaker 4: I guess in very small media outlets across Australia.

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Speaker 2: That I'm I'm kind of aware of.

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Speaker 4: That breaks some incredible stories and are growing a lot

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Speaker 4: of traction because we often can't necessarily trust the media to.

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Speaker 2: Just do good journalism anymore.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I look like that.

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Speaker 3: That that's under the umbrella of psychological warfare and being

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Speaker 3: ex military.

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Speaker 1: I know that it is.

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Speaker 3: It's an increasingly big part of warfare and it's very,

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Speaker 3: very effective. But anyway, that was a little aside, So

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Speaker 3: let's focus on the social media bank for the under

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Speaker 3: sixteens of Australia, right, So first of all, so there's

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Speaker 3: lots of Australians who listeners, but there's lots of overseas people.

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Speaker 3: So talk us through from your perspective, because I'm sure

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Speaker 3: you probably get your finger on your pulse pulse a

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Speaker 3: bit more than me.

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Speaker 1: How is it working?

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Speaker 3: Do you think it was a good idea? Do you

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Speaker 3: think sixteen, sorry, sixteen is the right age. Do you

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Speaker 3: think it's a good idea? Has it been well implemented?

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Speaker 3: What does the future look like?

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Speaker 1: All of that.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I'll try and be as brief as possible, so.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to be brief, be comprehensive.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's quite complex and so there's many facets

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Speaker 4: to it. Do I believe that young people need, and

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Speaker 4: in fact do all of us need, protection from big

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Speaker 4: tech and the way that technology is influencing us, both

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Speaker 4: just to scroll mindlessly and be sedentary and all the

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Speaker 4: impacts of that, but also the toxic algorithm and the

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Speaker 4: fact that we don't have a lot of control over that. Absolutely,

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Speaker 4: I think we need to do something. What we've done, though,

401
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Speaker 4: is a.

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Speaker 2: Very poor.

403
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Speaker 4: Attempt at what could have been a lot better if

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Speaker 4: we had have taken more time.

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Speaker 2: And the genesis of.

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Speaker 4: This, very briefly was news corp Ran and let Them

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Speaker 4: Be Kids campaign, as well as a radio dude called

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Speaker 4: Whipper and his little crew of many men under the

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Speaker 4: banner of thirty six months also had a campaign that

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Speaker 4: wanted to raise the age of social media access to sixteen.

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Speaker 4: They presented lots and lots of signatures and asked the

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Speaker 4: Prime Minister live on air would you back this? And

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Speaker 4: he went okay, And then we suddenly had introduction of

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Speaker 4: legislation which was debated and brought into law within nine days.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 4: When we stopped and we said, could we please have

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Speaker 4: a committee that like really looks at this, they were

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Speaker 4: given twenty four hours for submissions, and fifteen thousand submissions were.

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Speaker 1: Made chiump and Jehovah.

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Speaker 4: The committee was given half a day you are kidding me, no,

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Speaker 4: and we're expected to then that was on a Friday,

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Speaker 4: I think, and then we were expected to come back

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Speaker 4: on the Monday, and then on the twenty eighth of November.

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Speaker 4: Literally within nine days, this legislation came through without a

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Speaker 4: key component, which was the digital duty of care. Now,

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Speaker 4: this was the component that says, well, how I would

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Speaker 4: describe it actually is. This is the difference between saying

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Speaker 4: what we ended up with was ten social media platforms

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Speaker 4: not being allowed is kind of like saying to under

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Speaker 4: sixteen year olds, you're not allowed to drive in these

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Speaker 4: ten cars, right right, you can't be in those cars.

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Speaker 2: Those parts the dangerous, rather than.

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Speaker 4: These seat belts and safety features must be in every

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Speaker 4: platform that are available for everyone.

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Speaker 2: That's the digital duty of care.

436
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Speaker 4: That's saying safety by design, designing for safety in mind

437
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Speaker 4: must happen. And if you have these particular features, you

438
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Speaker 4: know that, you know you can go and look in

439
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Speaker 4: the legislation exactly what they are to do with the

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Speaker 4: algorithm and et cetera, et cetera. Then that shouldn't be available.

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Speaker 4: So we unfortunately had I believe it was the Liberal party.

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Speaker 2: Go no, we don't want that digital duty of care

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Speaker 2: in there.

444
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 4: Let's just stick with this part of the legislation, which

445
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 4: saw the ten at the moment ten social media platforms

446
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 4: being on the age restricted list. That doesn't include platforms

447
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 4: such as Discord, which is very very popular with young

448
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 4: people and operates. In my mind, it's very similar to

449
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 4: social media. It's a great platform. I use it myself,

450
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 4: and well.

451
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: Now I become much more popular because of this.

452
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:29,360
Speaker 4: Time Yeah, and Roadblocks, which is sort of like imagine

453
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 4: a virtual time zone where you go in and there's

454
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 4: four million different gaming experiences that you can choose, which

455
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 4: is sort of well known for having predatory I've heard

456
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 4: of that they have proactively started to age as sure,

457
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 4: so if you get an account at the moment, they

458
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 4: will check your age and then put you into certain

459
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 4: parts of Roadblocks, so you're only communicating with other kids

460
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 4: your age.

461
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:55,880
Speaker 2: And there are very.

462
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 4: Good parental controls on pretty much all of these, but

463
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 4: Roadblocks have good parental controls. It's just that many parents don't, unfortunately,

464
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 4: spend the time to understand.

465
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 2: What those controls are, so you know.

466
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 4: Without this legislation, my suggestion was always wait until your

467
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 4: kids are thirteen to get on social media and know

468
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 4: how to use it and what it does and how

469
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 4: to put the controls in place. That would have been, like,

470
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:22,719
Speaker 4: we could have done really great work if we had

471
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 4: have focused.

472
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 2: On that instead.

473
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 4: I think what is happening is parents go, it's not

474
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 4: my problem, you need to be off that, and they're

475
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 4: not because the age verification technology isn't working.

476
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 2: As well as we would like it.

477
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 4: And we knew that because there were many trials that

478
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 4: came out and said, oh yeah, it kind of works

479
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 4: eighty five percent of the time. And there's all of

480
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 4: these other new platforms that are popping up that kids

481
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 4: are using. So my daughter's nine year old friend, she

482
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 4: still has access to TikTok, but she's also on one

483
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 4: of the newer platforms that have risen up in the chart,

484
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 4: and she was telling me this morning, Oh, it's okay

485
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 4: because it's much more positive.

486
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: Right, this is.

487
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 2: A nine year old, Yeah.

488
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 4: You know safe it is for her to be on

489
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 4: this other social media platform to watch videos. So that's

490
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 4: very small sample size, but you know it will It

491
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 4: will be interesting to see what the long term effects are.

492
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, so do you think that that maybe they've just

493
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 3: gone right blanket bamd. We want to get something done,

494
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 3: we want to be first in the world, and then

495
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 3: they're going to look at it and judge it and

496
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 3: bring that whatever that panel was that you were talking

497
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 3: about of experts to go. Okay, n how do we

498
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 3: actually refine it? Yeah, I'm sure you hope and I

499
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 3: hope that that's the case.

500
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 1: Do you think that's going to be the case?

501
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 2: I would have loved it to be the case.

502
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 4: And there is a really awesome expert advisory that has

503
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 4: been put together. However, when it came to voting to

504
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 4: make sure that any rickons made from that panel were implemented, No,

505
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 4: that was voted.

506
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 1: Out voted I by by.

507
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 4: A range of people I can't remember exactly. That was

508
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 4: relatively recent A legra spender, the Wentworth MP had pushed

509
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 4: to make sure that that advisory, those recommendations were like mandated,

510
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 4: like if we say you should do this, you should

511
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 4: do it.

512
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 2: No, that wasn't actually then part of the legislation.

513
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 3: Wouldn't it be interesting to see to just know how

514
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 3: many lobbyists are on the other side looking.

515
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would really recommend folks check out Cam Wilson

516
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 4: from Kriik's reporting on this. Craik is an excellent independent,

517
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 4: sort of progressive publication and he has written over forty

518
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 4: four thousand words on the social media ban and has

519
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 4: exposed the folks from thirty six months as basically taking

520
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 4: sponsorship when they were to the un And you would

521
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 4: have heard about the Anaka Wells, the Communications Minister spending

522
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 4: one hundred thousand dollars on flights to New York to

523
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 4: go and scrough how good the ban is before the

524
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 4: band had started. They actually then were looking at you know,

525
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 4: you could do a sponsor, provide sponsorship for one hundred

526
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:18,439
Speaker 4: and fifty grand to be a part of that.

527
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 2: So you know, some.

528
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 4: People would say, oh, well, to stop these billion dollars

529
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 4: tech companies, and that's just.

530
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:24,120
Speaker 2: What you have to do.

531
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 4: I would say, that's some really interesting lobbying that's happening

532
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 4: by you know, ultimately an organization that makes TV commercials.

533
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 4: So one of the guys it works for a production

534
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 4: company who also makes ads for the gambling industry. So

535
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,479
Speaker 4: you know, we've been waiting four years for gambling ads

536
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 4: to be banned in social media and online.

537
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 2: Spaces that we Oh, no, that takes time. You can't

538
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 2: rush things. You've got to get the legislation right.

539
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 4: But a blanket ban with really bad features nine days,

540
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 4: done and dusted, won't you think about the kids? So

541
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 4: you can probably hear that I'm really cynical, and I

542
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 4: guess the reason for that is that there's so much

543
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 4: research that said this probably isn't going to work.

544
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 2: We do that. Could we do this instead?

545
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 4: That, you know, and that's a longer slower path, that is,

546
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 4: you know, lack with any good work. Is multifactorial and complex,

547
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 4: but would actually make a longer term difference and have

548
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 4: participatory approaches because what happens now, like kids are booted

549
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 4: off and then they come back in maybe with a

550
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 4: slightly more developed prefrontal cortex, but actually with no other

551
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 4: training wheels or driving.

552
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 2: Skills for these digital spaces.

553
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, just because now you're sixteen and

554
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 3: you're old good and you can access anything, yeah, it

555
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that it's going to be good. That then

556
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 3: brings me to the whole idea of the rule of

557
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 3: parents in all of this, because I know I've got

558
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 3: a nineteen year old girl and a fifteen year old boy,

559
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 3: and I know from conversations with them over the years

560
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 3: that there's a number of their friends who not only

561
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 3: is their social media completely unrestricted, their parents have no

562
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 3: idea how much time they're spending on screens, that they

563
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 3: have phones in the room at night, that they have

564
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 3: computers in their room at night. And I know that

565
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 3: that quite a lot of these kids are up late

566
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 3: on social media and boys gaming, and it's impacting on

567
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 3: their sleep, which impacts the cognitive function, which impacts.

568
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: A whole heap of shit and parents.

569
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean that it's just the excuse me,

570
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 3: the sleep.

571
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 5: Alone, and the knock on effects of that on behavior,

572
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 5: on likelihood of exercising the next day, and through the

573
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 5: impacts on leptin, on far behaviors, through the impacts on grelling,

574
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 5: on stress, on all of this stuff.

575
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 2: No effect, right, That's where I start.

576
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 4: I start when kids come to me, or really really

577
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 4: any client comes to me, but often it's the kids

578
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 4: with the social media or the gaming addiction. We fix

579
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 4: their sleep first, protect sleep at all cost because of

580
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 4: that cascade effects. I talk about the mood, metabolism, and memory.

581
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: That's ah. Nice.

582
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 3: I like those three things because look, and I'm happy

583
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 3: to be hardcore on this. If you're a parent and

584
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 3: you do not know and monitor and regulate your kid's

585
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 3: phone use first and foremost, but also social media, you're

586
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 3: being a shit parent.

587
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

588
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 4: It's a tricky one, right, because we talk about kids

589
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 4: as digital natives.

590
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,479
Speaker 2: And they you know, oh, they just grew up with

591
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 2: it and they know what to do. No, they're not.

592
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 2: They're digital orphans.

593
00:31:55,400 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 4: They're growing up without a generation of you know, older people,

594
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 4: trusted adults, parents who know some of the risks and

595
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 4: are willing to actually do the tough work around parenting,

596
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 4: which is to set limits, which is to set a

597
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 4: good example. And often you know, parents are doing their best.

598
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 4: I would like to generally say, but we're also I

599
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 4: think asleep at the wheel a lot of the time

600
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 4: because we haven't asked the right questions. Now, when I

601
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 4: used to be a teacher, I taught commerce, and the

602
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 4: first lesson in commerce is caveat emptal let the buyer beware.

603
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: And I think as consumers we are not aware enough

604
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 2: of what we're doing.

605
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 4: And you know, for a variety of reasons that many

606
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 4: parents are really disregulated themselves.

607
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 3: I was going to say, you're saying that that the

608
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 3: parents are doing the best. I think some parents are

609
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 3: doing the best. Some of them are as addicted to

610
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 3: the digital smack, as I would call it digital heroine,

611
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,239
Speaker 3: and some of them are spending so much time on

612
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 3: their own digit heroin that they are either don't have

613
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 3: the time or the inclination to regulate their kids stuff.

614
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 4: Absolutely right, And I think it is a massive coping

615
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 4: strategy maladaptive for a lot of people.

616
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 2: And it's sometimes.

617
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 4: Really hard then to sort that digital candy from the

618
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 4: digital kale, because it's all.

619
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 2: In one body.

620
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you know, like your your email and even

621
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 4: being kind of addicted to email and getting that secondary

622
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 4: gain from I've got to reply to this, and I've

623
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 4: got to keep my inbox manageable or zero or whatever,

624
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 4: and that kind of constant, always on urgency principle of

625
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 4: being pulled into things, I then think sets up neural

626
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 4: pathways even if you're not mindlessly scrolling. For you know,

627
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 4: I'm getting all these ads for cellulite creams that are

628
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 4: magically gonna you know, and like how many people would

629
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 4: just buy into that and then get into that zone

630
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 4: of like seeking hoping for that kind.

631
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 2: Of thing versus the literacy to go.

632
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 4: I know that that's total bullshit that they like cellulite.

633
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 4: Doesn't nothing get rid of cellulite really even being skinny,

634
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 4: you know? Anyway, That really is those differences of like

635
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 4: I went on just to catch up with that one person,

636
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 4: then I got sucked into these ads. Then I went

637
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 4: to kind of respond to this other thing over here

638
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 4: about the netball oranges or you know, a million parent

639
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 4: WhatsApp groups, and then I found myself over there.

640
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 2: And it's really really hard.

641
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 4: To stay on task when if you haven't managed your notifications,

642
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 4: if you're not really clear on intention and purpose, if

643
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 4: you've never learned any of these executive functioning kind of

644
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 4: skills that we usually only teach to kids who have ADHD,

645
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 4: Like executive function skills I think are something that everyone

646
00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 4: needs lessons in.

647
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:04,399
Speaker 3: I think we are having declines in executive function because

648
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 3: of the immediacy and all the little green hits. And

649
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 3: the concerning thing, particularly from a neural development stance, is

650
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 3: that these young developing Briands are getting completely hijacked and

651
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 3: we are changing the trajectory of Brian development in kids,

652
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 3: and we're sleepwalking right into this shit.

653
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 4: Don't we including our use of educational technology as well.

654
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 4: So I think we have to really pull that out,

655
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 4: the idea that just because it's for learning doesn't mean

656
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 4: that suddenly you're sitting at your desk with your shoulders

657
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,240
Speaker 4: back and you're making sure that you're looking at something

658
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 4: in the long distance so that you're not you know,

659
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 4: at myopia. All of our tech use really needs to

660
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 4: be examined. We need to examine whether or not those

661
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 4: teachers who back in two thousand and nine who never

662
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 4: got the lessons, actually you're getting the lessons now. Victoria

663
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 4: actually considering bringing in legislation that says that teachers can

664
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,439
Speaker 4: only use screens for ninety minutes of the school day.

665
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 3: I I think that it would be a wonderful thing

666
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 3: because to your point, So my fifteen year old, who

667
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 3: I've got a really open relationship, he tells me that

668
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 3: lots of his meutes when the teacher is.

669
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 1: Teaching, they're on games.

670
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 3: They they know how to hack the system, and they're

671
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 3: playing games in class.

672
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, constantly.

673
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 4: Even if they're not doing that, they can be in

674
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 4: Google classroom on a Google doc, messaging one another.

675
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 2: Right, Like I used to pass notes.

676
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 4: You can pass notes and you look like you're doing work.

677
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 4: A client who's written a forty three thousand word outline

678
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 4: that's just the outline for her fan fiction projects while

679
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,760
Speaker 4: looking like she was doing work at school.

680
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 2: So you know, where there's a there's a way.

681
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 4: And what I like to examine is not screen time

682
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 4: like we're counting digital calories, but what's actually in the

683
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 4: digital diet, because is there enough protein and play?

684
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 2: Is there enough creativity? Is there enough you know?

685
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 4: And again even ninety minutes for teachers to be using

686
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 4: that I want to work praise whether or not you're

687
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 4: using educational technology that's actually not gamified and designed with

688
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 4: all of those hijacked principles in mind, just because we're

689
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,919
Speaker 4: so desperate for engagement and we're competing with short form

690
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 4: media and influencers who are masters of summing up information

691
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:44,359
Speaker 4: in quick, easy bites, and that's, you know, I think

692
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 4: something that we need to keep our eye on. The

693
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 4: prize around ed tech as well, and that move, you know,

694
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 4: we all had to bring our own device and now

695
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 4: we're moving back away from that. So yeah, there's so

696
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 4: much to consider here that again we sort of get

697
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 4: allured by the the promise of technology, but for many

698
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 4: of us, it just makes the world more complicated, yeah.

699
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: And besier.

700
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 3: So let's start about some advice for individuals who are

701
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 3: just listening tests for themselves, but also for parents for kids.

702
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: So what are they? What are the building blocks of

703
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 1: good digital nutrition? What does that look like?

704
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 4: So I'm just in the process of finalizing my updated

705
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 4: version of a technology use agreement. It sounds really boring

706
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 4: and it's really hard to come up with the jazzy

707
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 4: name for it. It just does what it says in

708
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 4: the box. It's a way to co design your family's

709
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 4: tech use agreement. I think we need to have explicit

710
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 4: conversations about the role that technology plays in our life

711
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 4: when it is welcomed and when it is shut down.

712
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 4: And this is not something I guess you know that

713
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 4: is very sexy or very cool, and parents often want

714
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 4: to be the cool parents, Like you actually need to

715
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 4: sit down and have hard conversations and you know, be

716
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 4: the parents, so to speak.

717
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, not their friend, their friend parent.

718
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 4: There's time to be friends, and you can be friendly,

719
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 4: but you know, you have to hold firm on the

720
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,839
Speaker 4: things that are most important. I find too, so in

721
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 4: my course, Basically what I do is I help parents

722
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 4: understand all the things that we've never learned, because where

723
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 4: are the lessons for all of this? Ye public, No, no

724
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 4: one does, and there's no one size fits all because

725
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 4: we're all so different and our kind of digital diets

726
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 4: need to be different too when they change, just like

727
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 4: your nutrition as a toddler is really different to a

728
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 4: fifteen year old or if you're an athlete. So we

729
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 4: really need to examine, like what are our predilections, what

730
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 4: are some of the things that we're allergic to. I'm

731
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 4: allergic to TikTok my brain and TikTok do not go well.

732
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,760
Speaker 4: It sets my brain on fire and I get really dysregulated.

733
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 2: So I know not to go there, right, But that's

734
00:39:57,960 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 2: you know, you.

735
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: Know, I've never seen to It's.

736
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 4: Just really quick videos and a lot of a lot

737
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 4: of slop, right, a lot of junk, and you go

738
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 4: looking for the good stuff and it's really hard to find.

739
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 4: It's like you know, panning for goals. You get a

740
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 4: little bit and you think I've got to keep going

741
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 4: to you know, end on a high or whatever. So

742
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 4: knowing knowing yourself and knowing how things work and knowing

743
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 4: some of the risks, So parents really need to invest

744
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 4: a little bit of that time to.

745
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 2: Educate themselves, sometimes side by side. The expert in.

746
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,399
Speaker 4: Technology in your family is your teenager probably, but you're

747
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 4: the expert in your family, and you're the expert in

748
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 4: you know, brain development hopefully and switching on some of

749
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 4: those boundaries to protect their brain development.

750
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 2: We also know that.

751
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 4: Explaining to kids how the neurobiology works helps them make

752
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 4: better decisions. So when I've worked with kids, and I

753
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 4: did a project recently with the Telstra Foundation where we

754
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 4: explain to kids the neurobiology of sleep and why it

755
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 4: was important. Using that you know in your mood, your memory,

756
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 4: and your metabolism, they automatically prioritize sleep because they understood

757
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 4: why it was so important, how it could benefit.

758
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: Them, right, Yeah, So you comment so.

759
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 4: Similarly when they understand, I say, so, how much do

760
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 4: you does TikTok pay you for your attention? You're paying

761
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 4: attention to TikTok? What's that worth an hour? And they're like, oh, nothing,

762
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 4: I do it for free. And I'm like, if you

763
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 4: went to the mall and got a job in one

764
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 4: of their fast food outlets, would you work for free?

765
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 4: Because you, you know, would you give them that time?

766
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 2: Would you give no?

767
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 4: And I'm like, well, that's kind of what you're doing.

768
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 4: And suddenly they value their attention and their time differently.

769
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 4: So there's some things like that just to it's not lecturing,

770
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:48,399
Speaker 4: it's not telling them what to do, it's saying, here's

771
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,800
Speaker 4: some information. When you now that you have that information,

772
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 4: do you think you want to do things?

773
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 2: Differently?

774
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 4: And depending on the age of the kids, so again

775
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 4: like on the primary schoolers we're going to work with

776
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 4: really really differently. So the kids who maybe have already

777
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 4: had the technology, who have already circumvented the ban to say, hey,

778
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 4: here's some information, how would you.

779
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 2: Like to use that to shape your future?

780
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 4: And getting kids connected to their future and understanding that

781
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 4: self control you need to actually put off what's right

782
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 4: now in order to get that thing in the future

783
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,800
Speaker 4: and get that goal is really really helpful. My master's

784
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 4: thesis in cyber psychology was all about the role of

785
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 4: self control. If we haven't taught self control and we

786
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 4: haven't given kids something in the future to look forward to,

787
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,919
Speaker 4: like having a planet that's not on fire or being

788
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 4: destroyed by war, then what you know, what are they

789
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 4: giving up that, you know, their community, their regulation, their coping,

790
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 4: their escapism.

791
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 3: For so, I think that's a huge important I'll give

792
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 3: you a little personal anecdot, but firstally self control. The

793
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 3: Dunedin Study on self control showed that and this has

794
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 3: been following a huge amount of people in the Dunedin

795
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 3: in southern South Island of the South Island, New Zealand, and.

796
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: They've been following them from birth.

797
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 3: They've got genetic stuff on them and they do these

798
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 3: huge assessments every couple of years on them, and the

799
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 3: people are now in their forties right. It's one of

800
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 3: the biggest longitudinal studies and so much really cool shit

801
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 3: comes out of it.

802
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: But they have.

803
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 3: Concluded self control is the single biggest predictor of success

804
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 3: in life, way above intelligence, above education about social your

805
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 3: social status or your economic status. Self control is the

806
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 3: most important predictor of success in life because it is

807
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 3: to your point earlier, it's self control that when I'm

808
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 3: a kid says well, I need to study because I

809
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 3: want to do well in my exams, and it's self control.

810
00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:59,839
Speaker 3: It says, you know, I want to get to university now,

811
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 3: so I have to study and not have the night side,

812
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 3: and then when you're university it self, controller goes, I

813
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 3: want to actually get a good degree so as I

814
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 3: can get a job, So I'm not going to go

815
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 3: on the pist seven nights a.

816
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 1: Week, and then when you're in a job, blah blah

817
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. But so, so the point of this

818
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: about the conversation.

819
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 3: We are constantly talking to our two kids around the education.

820
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 3: You know, I've got a background in neuroscience and psychology,

821
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 3: and it's really interesting. Nineteen year old girl, fifteen year

822
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 3: old boy, our nineteen.

823
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 1: Year old girl.

824
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 3: She is currently in Nicaragua a right, traveling backpacking around.

825
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 1: Give us a little bit of the app.

826
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,879
Speaker 3: But it's like, this is this is the life experiences

827
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 3: that you need. But I got a notification on my

828
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 3: phone saying Kira wants fifteen more minutes on TikTok. She's

829
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 3: nineteen years old. When she went to university. We're like, Kira,

830
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 3: you're an adult and I we don't need parental controls,

831
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 3: and she said I want them. So Kira in year ten,

832
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 3: because she was very very motivated, driven by doing well,

833
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 3: having that conversation around social media, frontal lobe development, all

834
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:12,760
Speaker 3: of those things.

835
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: She was like bomb straight away.

836
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 3: Since she's been in year ten, she's got ten minutes

837
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 3: on TikTok, she's got twelve minutes on Instagram, and like

838
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 3: seven minutes on Snapchat.

839
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:24,879
Speaker 1: And she actually came to us in year twelve and.

840
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 3: Asked to get them cut back because she understands the

841
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,320
Speaker 3: impact on her and she sees it in other people.

842
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 3: She sees the impact on their mood, on their anxiety

843
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 3: and all of these things. So that is just underscoring

844
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 3: from a personal perspective how important it is to have

845
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 3: those conversations.

846
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 1: But fifteen years.

847
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 2: Really want that, right, Yeah, actually really.

848
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 4: Want more rules, and people like, no, they don't, and

849
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 4: I'm like, what are they getting games?

850
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 2: They get really clear rules.

851
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 4: Yes, so they actually are crying out for us to

852
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 4: say here's what to do so rather than below open slater.

853
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 4: And often that's because we then know that we can't

854
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 4: be hypocrites.

855
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And the whole thing about sleep and

856
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 3: the education on sleep, and so.

857
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: You know, our kids, nobody has cut phones in their bedroom.

858
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 3: But it's interesting the fifteen year old boy, it's much

859
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 3: more of a fight, right, both in terms of getting

860
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 3: social media at that age, and then the time limits,

861
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 3: which we had to do, you know, a pretty negotiation

862
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,240
Speaker 3: around those time limits and stuff like that. But he's

863
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:41,800
Speaker 3: driven by different things, right, He's not as as driven

864
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,359
Speaker 3: by awards at school and all of those sorts of things.

865
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 3: So I think the conversation needs to be different, right.

866
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 3: You got to understand who you're talking to and what

867
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,320
Speaker 3: pushes their buttons and try to push the right buttons

868
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 3: for them, I think.

869
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 1: And that's that's the hard work as apparent, isn't it, And.

870
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 3: That sometimes you know, if they're not motivated by these things, you've.

871
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 1: Just got to go, well, they're the roots, that's right.

872
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,399
Speaker 1: And you've got to be unpopular.

873
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:06,879
Speaker 2: That's right, don't.

874
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 4: You don't have to want to you know, great things,

875
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:14,919
Speaker 4: but you do have not negotiables and they again that

876
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 4: that can be a range of different things. Because like

877
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 4: my daughter does have a phone in her room because

878
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,320
Speaker 4: she listens to something as she's falling asleep. That phone

879
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 4: is locked down, but technically there is a phone in

880
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 4: a bedroom, so we want to really interrogate.

881
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: Can't she can't access the.

882
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 2: Social media any of that?

883
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 4: No, No, it's just like a crappy old phone that

884
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 4: she uses literally with two apps, one to listen to

885
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,240
Speaker 4: books and one to you know, listen to music or whatever.

886
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 4: So again, we just want to interrogate that and look

887
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 4: at the differences in our kids. So when I teach

888
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 4: that tech use agreement, there's an umbrella agreement for the family.

889
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 4: So that might be something like we bookending the day

890
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 4: is a really good one. We don't use tech right

891
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 4: up before bed, and we don't use it first thing

892
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:01,760
Speaker 4: in the morning. But then individual emas for different people

893
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 4: based on, you know, what their interest in online spaces are.

894
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 4: Some people really like your daughter might have. Really I

895
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 4: want to just have a little taste. I want to

896
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 4: see my friends, I want to kind of know what's

897
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 4: going on, but I'm not.

898
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 2: Interested in being there.

899
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 4: Other kids are deep into games, they're running communities, they're

900
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 4: admitting servers. They've got real, you know, responsibilities within the

901
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 4: communities they've built, and they need different time. What I

902
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 4: suggest there, though, is that we kind of use the

903
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 4: big rocks kind of analogy from corporate Everyone probably knows this.

904
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 4: You know, if you've got a jar, you've got to

905
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 4: put the big rocks in first, then the pebbles, and

906
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 4: then the sand, because if you put the sand or

907
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 4: the screen use in First, you're not going to fit.

908
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:49,280
Speaker 4: It's going to displace the sleep and school and those things.

909
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 4: So again that's built into that course is actually examining

910
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 4: the idea that screens are the sand, and we have

911
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 4: to do the big rocks first. We have to protect

912
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 4: getting enough sleep and making sure we're going to school,

913
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 4: putting some sport in there or some movement. Some people

914
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:06,800
Speaker 4: don't like the word sport if you're not a sporty person,

915
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:08,399
Speaker 4: but moving your body.

916
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 2: And not being sedentary.

917
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 4: And then the pebbles are, you know, your extracurriculars, family engagements,

918
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 4: your chores, all of those other.

919
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 2: Things, and then the sand goes in.

920
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 4: So when we do it the wrong way, wrong way round,

921
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 4: we're displacing those really important things and that's where the

922
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 4: wheels come off and we see big problems. But we

923
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 4: still need to be focused on the content as well,

924
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:35,320
Speaker 4: because obviously any minutes of exposure to some really horrible

925
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 4: material is too many minutes.

926
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 1: And what can parents do about that?

927
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 4: So there's a range of kind of I guess net

928
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 4: nannies we used to call them back in the day,

929
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 4: and on every platform you can filter certain words so

930
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 4: that those words won't show up.

931
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 2: Places like Instagram.

932
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:01,319
Speaker 4: It's not particularly well known or well advertised. Before the

933
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 4: social media bank was even discussed, Instagram launched teen accounts,

934
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 4: so if you were between thirteen and seventeen, you will

935
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 4: automatically put into kind of a sand pit version of

936
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 4: Instagram where you needed parental controls to or a parent's

937
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 4: permission to actually change some of these settings. So all

938
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 4: of the content if you're between thirteen or now sixteen

939
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:24,800
Speaker 4: and seventeen.

940
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 2: Is PG rated plus night mode.

941
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:31,280
Speaker 4: It has the ability to reset your algorithm. In fact,

942
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,839
Speaker 4: everybody on Instagram can reset their algorithm and change their

943
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 4: content preferences. So there are features within many of the

944
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 4: platforms that I recommend people go to the e Safetyoffice

945
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 4: e safety dot dot au, whether you're inside of Australia

946
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 4: or not. You can use a lot of the resources

947
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 4: that are there to tame technology and to work out

948
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 4: how you can use some of the parental controls and limits,

949
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 4: both from a platform perspective, a device perspective, and even

950
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 4: an ISP or a modem perspective as well. The trick

951
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 4: to that is to always make sure you're talking to

952
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 4: your kids about what you're doing, because if you don't

953
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 4: know what you're doing.

954
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 2: They are probably the ones that you will.

955
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 4: Go to to say, oh, can you help me with

956
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 4: these controls or the hack their way through them. And

957
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 4: I've seen lots of people say, oh, my gosh, my

958
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 4: kids hacked through in certain name of you know software.

959
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 4: Can somebody help me? You know, they've locked down my

960
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 4: laptop and I can't finish the annual report or whatever importance.

961
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 4: So I think honesty is usually the best policy and

962
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 4: transparency and using change management processes to get kids along

963
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 4: for the ride to say, hey, things are not working,

964
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 4: we need to change them.

965
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:44,280
Speaker 2: How do you want to be part of the solution.

966
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 3: But yeah, and I think and I'm doing this because

967
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 3: I love you and I care for you, and I

968
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 3: want you to have good mental health, you know, I

969
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 3: want you to grow up to be a good responsible

970
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 3: at that think.

971
00:51:58,160 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 1: I think that intention.

972
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,320
Speaker 2: I say kids all the time. Yeah, I said to

973
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 2: kids all the time.

974
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:04,840
Speaker 4: You know when your mum's nagging in you know that

975
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 4: nagging voice, and you can just feel it, nagnagnag. You

976
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 4: know what she's saying, right, And you know, we go

977
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 4: through this process and like what's going on there?

978
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 2: And they're like they will finally go oh.

979
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 1: Because she loves me.

980
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's like yeah, And when we're asking you

981
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,800
Speaker 4: and we're anxious and maybe we're not, you know, giving

982
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:27,439
Speaker 4: you options, it's because it's our job to protect you,

983
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 4: and we love you enough to protect you and to

984
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:32,759
Speaker 4: do that, and you don't need to like us, and

985
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 4: that's totally okay. There are times where I don't like

986
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 4: my daughter. I love her, but I do not like

987
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 4: the behavior. Yeah, you know, so I think kind of

988
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:46,320
Speaker 4: digging into some of those things can be really helpful.

989
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 4: And being really curious too about our kids. Being curious

990
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 4: not furious is like this thing. I should get paid

991
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 4: every time I say that. I don't know you originally

992
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 4: said it.

993
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:56,319
Speaker 1: If it was, it's pretty cool.

994
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, when we.

995
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 4: Choose connection over correction, we get a lot further with

996
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 4: young people, and because it is our job and we

997
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,879
Speaker 4: go into protective you know, mama bear puppa their kind

998
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 4: of mode, but being able to be like I would

999
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 4: really like to understand how you made that choice or

1000
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 4: what you're thinking when you're doing that, so that I

1001
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 4: can then help you meet those needs. I think if

1002
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 4: you've ever learned anything about self determination theory, yes, psychological

1003
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 4: nutrients that I call the three c's, competence, connection, and control.

1004
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:37,399
Speaker 4: Understanding how they play into screen behavior is really really

1005
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 4: important too. I've got a whole quick lesson that people

1006
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 4: can get if they want to understand screens and psychological nutrients,

1007
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:48,799
Speaker 4: because that will then help you understand why it's so

1008
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 4: alluring and how we can then build those psychological needs

1009
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 4: outside of screens so that we can try and have

1010
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 4: them met without all the dopamine hits and the toxic

1011
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 4: algorithm and the anisphere.

1012
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 3: And yeah, and I you know what, I need to

1013
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 3: fess up on this because my wife said something similar

1014
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:12,360
Speaker 3: about be curious, not furious. It wasn't exactly that terminology,

1015
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 3: but it was like, you know, I was coming in.

1016
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 3: I was, I was, I.

1017
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:18,919
Speaker 1: Was like, you're spending too much time on this, blah

1018
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:19,319
Speaker 1: blah blah.

1019
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 3: And she's like, why don't you sit down with Oscar

1020
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 3: and just ask him why he likes these platforms and

1021
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 3: try and understand what he does and then we can

1022
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 3: work with them on that. And I did, and you know,

1023
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:32,799
Speaker 3: and as soon as she said, and I'm like, yeah, okay,

1024
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 3: you need some autonomy in this and we need to

1025
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 3: have that relatedness and.

1026
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:38,840
Speaker 1: And and it was really really helpful.

1027
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 3: So I fully endorse being curious not furious, as a

1028
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:47,320
Speaker 3: reformed furious reactor to social media.

1029
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 1: Right, and look, just this has been awesome.

1030
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 3: And I got to say, I love the idea of

1031
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 3: digital nutrition and how you've broken that down.

1032
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:02,279
Speaker 1: It's very very clever. Have you got a book on this?

1033
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:05,320
Speaker 1: I should you do that? You need to have a book.

1034
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I need to have a book. I know.

1035
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:12,360
Speaker 4: I yeah, maybe one day I had the range of courses.

1036
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 4: And look, I just feel like everything changes so quickly.

1037
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 4: If I had written that book last year, it would

1038
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 4: have been out of date. Almost a good point because

1039
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 4: we're talking about AI chatbots and loneliness and yeah, kids

1040
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 4: who are using that to develop deep friendships and never

1041
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 4: have the friction of somebody you know, all the friendship problems. Yes,

1042
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 4: if you have an AI chatbot friend who's just sick,

1043
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:39,839
Speaker 4: aphantic and agrees with everything, it really makes real life

1044
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 4: friends who sometimes your friends and sometimes aren't. All the

1045
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 4: friendship dramas go away.

1046
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:50,959
Speaker 3: So I tell you what, that is a really scary world,

1047
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:55,840
Speaker 3: these these chatbots, not only friendships, but relationship Since that,

1048
00:55:56,080 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 3: I mean, wow, we're going into a dangerous vortex right there,

1049
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 3: But that's probably a whole nother podcast.

1050
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 2: Another podcast.

1051
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 4: But parents should just be really really aware of that

1052
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 4: because it is so common. It's something like half of

1053
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 4: kids are using have used a chat what she took

1054
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,320
Speaker 4: to them about companionship and friendship stuff.

1055
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:17,239
Speaker 2: Wow, it's not.

1056
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 4: Even like just chat to BT like can you do

1057
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 4: my assignment for me? But this happened today? What should

1058
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:28,280
Speaker 4: I do? YEA, yeah, so that's my next big project.

1059
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 4: But I do have lots of course, there's lots of

1060
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 4: freebies on my website so people can dive in and

1061
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 4: take a little bite.

1062
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:40,840
Speaker 3: And your website is Joscelyn Buwer sorry bro dot dot com,

1063
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 3: which I will put the link into that and would

1064
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 3: encourage every parent and you don't, I guess you don't

1065
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:48,320
Speaker 3: have to be a parent.

1066
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 1: It's going in there and understanding.

1067
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 2: Yourself, that's right. Like my market is literally anyone who picks.

1068
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 4: Up a digital device and goes, what is this doing

1069
00:56:57,680 --> 00:56:58,320
Speaker 4: to my brain?

1070
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,480
Speaker 1: That's my market and that's a pretty big market.

1071
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,239
Speaker 4: My business coach says, you should probably niche down, and

1072
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 4: you know, my my niche under that is parents, but

1073
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 4: really it's for any anyone who's curious about how their

1074
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:14,920
Speaker 4: their brain is being impacted by digital technologies, how our

1075
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 4: society is right, it's waybey on the individual.

1076
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 3: It is very important work and it's it's certainly certainly

1077
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 3: a growth area that you're in. You're not going to

1078
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 3: be out of a job with AI, that's for sure.

1079
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 1: You're going to be the last.

1080
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 2: Future proof.

1081
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, Just to thank for your time, This has

1082
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:35,400
Speaker 1: been awesome.

1083
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll put all we'll put all the links in

1084
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:40,760
Speaker 3: there and your parents go and get on it.

1085
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 1: Be parents, not friends.

1086
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 2: Much appreciated. Thank you, bye for now,