1 00:00:04,050 --> 00:00:06,629 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,630 --> 00:00:09,420 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. I'd like to think there's a greater focus on 3 00:00:09,420 --> 00:00:12,810 Sean Aylmer: wellbeing at work now than ever before. The pandemic, working 4 00:00:12,810 --> 00:00:15,300 Sean Aylmer: remotely, and the strain on both physical and mental health 5 00:00:15,570 --> 00:00:19,079 Sean Aylmer: has made wellbeing in the workplace a prime consideration. I 6 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,900 Sean Aylmer: wanted to look today at how a successful tech company 7 00:00:22,020 --> 00:00:24,570 Sean Aylmer: manages it and whether there are lessons here for other 8 00:00:24,570 --> 00:00:27,900 Sean Aylmer: businesses as well. Lucas Finch is the Global Head of 9 00:00:27,900 --> 00:00:32,460 Sean Aylmer: Wellbeing at Xero, the cloud- based accounting software company. He's 10 00:00:32,460 --> 00:00:35,519 Sean Aylmer: also speaking at the Accounting Business Expo on the 14th and 15th 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,280 Sean Aylmer: of March in Melbourne, which of course is a supporter 12 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,490 Sean Aylmer: of this podcast. Lucas, welcome to Fear and Greed. 13 00:00:41,820 --> 00:00:43,410 Lucas Finch: Thanks so much for having me on, Sean. 14 00:00:43,830 --> 00:00:47,130 Sean Aylmer: Global Head of Wellbeing, how many companies have a global 15 00:00:47,130 --> 00:00:47,880 Sean Aylmer: head of wellbeing? 16 00:00:48,659 --> 00:00:49,139 Lucas Finch: Seven. 17 00:00:49,740 --> 00:00:52,409 Sean Aylmer: Oh, you do know the answer. That's well done. 18 00:00:52,770 --> 00:00:56,790 Lucas Finch: It's increased certainly since the pandemic, and there is the 19 00:00:56,790 --> 00:00:59,970 Lucas Finch: chief mental health officers. There is a rise of these 20 00:01:00,900 --> 00:01:03,900 Lucas Finch: more senior positions in mental health, but it certainly exploded 21 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:06,089 Lucas Finch: after 2020, after the pandemic. 22 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,090 Sean Aylmer: Okay. And so what is your role at Xero? 23 00:01:10,170 --> 00:01:13,140 Lucas Finch: So my role at Xero is to develop and implement 24 00:01:13,140 --> 00:01:17,310 Lucas Finch: a wellbeing strategy, it's 80% looking at internally for our 25 00:01:17,370 --> 00:01:22,860 Lucas Finch: Xeros and 20% looking at our customers. And there's various 26 00:01:22,860 --> 00:01:25,920 Lucas Finch: frameworks that you rely on to develop a wellbeing strategy. 27 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:27,510 Lucas Finch: But a really well- known one is looking at how 28 00:01:27,510 --> 00:01:33,660 Lucas Finch: you support wellbeing and looking at services like EAP, how 29 00:01:33,660 --> 00:01:37,620 Lucas Finch: you promote wellbeing. And this is drawing from the literature of 30 00:01:37,620 --> 00:01:42,539 Lucas Finch: things like health promotion and positive psychology. But a big 31 00:01:42,540 --> 00:01:44,970 Lucas Finch: chunk, and I think this is what differentiates a lot 32 00:01:44,970 --> 00:01:49,110 Lucas Finch: of wellbeing programs, is there's this protect wellbeing and that's 33 00:01:49,110 --> 00:01:53,100 Lucas Finch: where you look at how we design work and how 34 00:01:53,100 --> 00:01:55,830 Lucas Finch: we can build the time you spend in the office, 35 00:01:55,830 --> 00:01:58,830 Lucas Finch: people's experience of work to be a really positive contributor, not 36 00:01:58,830 --> 00:02:02,970 Lucas Finch: only to their own wellbeing, but also it has positive outputs. 37 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,840 Sean Aylmer: So this idea of protect wellbeing, I'm interested in that. 38 00:02:07,650 --> 00:02:11,220 Sean Aylmer: Is it something that's more difficult when we have hybrid 39 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,630 Sean Aylmer: workplaces nowadays? Is it something that every organisation can do 40 00:02:15,630 --> 00:02:18,480 Sean Aylmer: for employees who work remotely most of the time? Do 41 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:20,250 Sean Aylmer: they need to be in the office? How does it work? 42 00:02:20,850 --> 00:02:23,490 Lucas Finch: Yeah, well, that's a great question. So there's a lot 43 00:02:23,490 --> 00:02:25,740 Lucas Finch: of literature that's available, so there's lots of great ways 44 00:02:25,740 --> 00:02:28,410 Lucas Finch: of doing this and the how we go about this 45 00:02:28,410 --> 00:02:30,360 Lucas Finch: has always been the tricky and the devil is in 46 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:35,700 Lucas Finch: the detail. Great call out regarding hybrid work. I suppose 47 00:02:35,700 --> 00:02:40,680 Lucas Finch: a really good framework is looking broadly at what demands 48 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,919 Lucas Finch: are on employees, things like... And we know that hybrid 49 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,580 Lucas Finch: work's added not only time to your workday, increased screen 50 00:02:47,580 --> 00:02:50,820 Lucas Finch: time, increased meeting load. There are certain demands that we know 51 00:02:50,820 --> 00:02:55,050 Lucas Finch: exist as a result of hybrid work. And so the 52 00:02:55,050 --> 00:02:57,870 Lucas Finch: question is then, well, either how do you reduce those 53 00:02:57,870 --> 00:03:00,990 Lucas Finch: demands and if you can't, well, what resources can you 54 00:03:00,990 --> 00:03:04,740 Lucas Finch: give people to better deal with these demands that they're 55 00:03:04,740 --> 00:03:09,510 Lucas Finch: facing? And often the two best resources available to people are 56 00:03:09,750 --> 00:03:12,149 Lucas Finch: things like control and the other one would be support. 57 00:03:12,150 --> 00:03:14,669 Lucas Finch: So control would be looking at things like, " Well, how 58 00:03:14,669 --> 00:03:17,430 Lucas Finch: can I choose when and how I can actually opt 59 00:03:17,430 --> 00:03:19,410 Lucas Finch: in or opt out of meetings? If I don't have 60 00:03:19,410 --> 00:03:22,019 Lucas Finch: to be there, can I opt out." Portioning off chunks 61 00:03:22,020 --> 00:03:25,170 Lucas Finch: of people's days so you can have the ability to 62 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,480 Lucas Finch: dive in and do your deep work. You're not just 63 00:03:27,900 --> 00:03:31,919 Lucas Finch: pinging around and doing shallow responses to email and Slack 64 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,520 Lucas Finch: all day and those really tangible ways you can win 65 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,250 Lucas Finch: back people control. We saw a lot of that over 66 00:03:38,250 --> 00:03:40,530 Lucas Finch: the pandemic and I think that's a great strategy in 67 00:03:40,530 --> 00:03:42,180 Lucas Finch: that protect area. 68 00:03:42,990 --> 00:03:46,140 Sean Aylmer: And then support, it is what it says it is? 69 00:03:46,500 --> 00:03:51,180 Lucas Finch: Yeah. And so there's historically many ways that people receive 70 00:03:51,660 --> 00:03:56,070 Lucas Finch: support in an organisation and supportive leadership behavior's a really 71 00:03:56,070 --> 00:03:58,920 Lucas Finch: key one. And I think leadership looks really different in 72 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,910 Lucas Finch: a hybrid and remote work setting, but there's also individual 73 00:04:02,910 --> 00:04:05,820 Lucas Finch: support you can get from team members and there's a 74 00:04:05,820 --> 00:04:07,800 Lucas Finch: higher level, and I guess we could have a look 75 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,220 Lucas Finch: at this as well, level of feeling supported and cared 76 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,690 Lucas Finch: for by that people experience as part of an organisational culture. 77 00:04:15,750 --> 00:04:17,790 Lucas Finch: So it's part of what we call a wellbeing climate. 78 00:04:18,660 --> 00:04:20,790 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Lucas. We'll be back in a minute. 79 00:04:27,150 --> 00:04:29,760 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Lucas Finch, Global Head of Wellbeing 80 00:04:30,300 --> 00:04:36,750 Sean Aylmer: at Xero. How important is that organisational culture to wellbeing, 81 00:04:36,750 --> 00:04:40,200 Sean Aylmer: feeling part of something that you want to be part 82 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,210 Sean Aylmer: of really? The second part is more important than the 83 00:04:42,210 --> 00:04:44,460 Sean Aylmer: first part. You can feel part of something but actually 84 00:04:44,460 --> 00:04:45,900 Sean Aylmer: that you really want to be part of it. 85 00:04:47,070 --> 00:04:50,850 Lucas Finch: Yes. And so that sense of something greater, that sense 86 00:04:50,850 --> 00:04:55,860 Lucas Finch: of meaning and purpose, that's an organisational resource. That helps 87 00:04:55,860 --> 00:04:59,670 Lucas Finch: offset some of these demands and specifically to health and wellbeing, 88 00:04:59,850 --> 00:05:02,310 Lucas Finch: that's a great contributor. We know from a personal level 89 00:05:02,310 --> 00:05:05,640 Lucas Finch: that sense of purpose is a great predictor of things 90 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:11,160 Lucas Finch: like longevity and also lots of specific health outcomes. And 91 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,440 Lucas Finch: specific to health and wellbeing, when we talk about the 92 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,760 Lucas Finch: wellbeing climate, we look at how an organisation, and it can even 93 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,790 Lucas Finch: just be a small company or a large one, creates 94 00:05:20,790 --> 00:05:25,020 Lucas Finch: this culture through four things, showing a Priority of health 95 00:05:25,020 --> 00:05:29,250 Lucas Finch: and wellbeing. A Commitment to those areas that have been 96 00:05:29,250 --> 00:05:34,320 Lucas Finch: identified as being important. Communication about how we're progressing against those. 97 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,339 Lucas Finch: And Participation. So getting people involved and in the process 98 00:05:38,339 --> 00:05:41,700 Lucas Finch: as well. And those four facets have been shown to 99 00:05:41,700 --> 00:05:45,240 Lucas Finch: be really important for creating this wellbeing climate. And they're 100 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:49,710 Lucas Finch: super predictive of not only individual level outcomes, if you 101 00:05:49,710 --> 00:05:54,420 Lucas Finch: get those four people will flourish in their roles and also, 102 00:05:55,710 --> 00:05:58,020 Lucas Finch: time and time again, repeated studies show that there'll be 103 00:05:58,020 --> 00:06:04,170 Lucas Finch: less sick leave, less burnout, and less attrition, which is 104 00:06:04,170 --> 00:06:05,700 Lucas Finch: really key for a lot of people at the moment. 105 00:06:05,940 --> 00:06:06,750 Lucas Finch: So it's a win- win. 106 00:06:07,170 --> 00:06:10,260 Sean Aylmer: There's been studies, particularly in the UK, the whole four- 107 00:06:10,260 --> 00:06:13,529 Sean Aylmer: day work week experiment that's going on. And there was 108 00:06:13,529 --> 00:06:18,089 Sean Aylmer: a recent one where the results were unambiguously positive towards 109 00:06:18,089 --> 00:06:23,490 Sean Aylmer: a four- day work week. How important is... I'm certainly 110 00:06:23,490 --> 00:06:25,260 Sean Aylmer: not proposing a four- day work week because I don't 111 00:06:25,260 --> 00:06:26,850 Sean Aylmer: know that I agree with it or don't agree with 112 00:06:26,850 --> 00:06:29,370 Sean Aylmer: it, I don't have an opinion, but just the ability 113 00:06:29,370 --> 00:06:30,750 Sean Aylmer: to be really flexible. 114 00:06:31,710 --> 00:06:36,779 Lucas Finch: Yes. So I think you're right, and in terms of individual 115 00:06:36,779 --> 00:06:39,930 Lucas Finch: companies implementing the four- day work week, it's a hot 116 00:06:39,930 --> 00:06:43,050 Lucas Finch: topic and there's a lot of complexity when you look at the 117 00:06:43,050 --> 00:06:47,010 Lucas Finch: demands of specific businesses, but I think you've nailed it. 118 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,040 Lucas Finch: And what the promise of the four- day work week 119 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,950 Lucas Finch: is that is so attractive and so important is that 120 00:06:52,950 --> 00:06:56,790 Lucas Finch: aspect of flexibility. And this move with hybrid, we've moved 121 00:06:56,790 --> 00:07:02,099 Lucas Finch: from being geographically in one spot to being geographically independent. 122 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,730 Lucas Finch: And the next transition that needs to happen is we 123 00:07:05,790 --> 00:07:09,120 Lucas Finch: need to move from being time bound to being time independent. 124 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,540 Lucas Finch: So that would be leveraging asynchronous ways of working, the 125 00:07:12,540 --> 00:07:17,640 Lucas Finch: ability to work when and how we choose to. And I 126 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,700 Lucas Finch: feel like this is the next frontier of unlocking some 127 00:07:20,700 --> 00:07:22,440 Lucas Finch: of that flexibility in organisations. 128 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,720 Sean Aylmer: As you're talking, it reminds me of something you said 129 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,450 Sean Aylmer: earlier on, I think you called it a deep dive 130 00:07:27,690 --> 00:07:31,440 Sean Aylmer: in terms of your ability to work uninterrupted, I suppose. 131 00:07:31,500 --> 00:07:35,310 Sean Aylmer: I suppose the opposite that is shallow work, which is 132 00:07:35,310 --> 00:07:38,550 Sean Aylmer: something that you can perhaps do two or three tasks 133 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:43,320 Sean Aylmer: at once. How important is it to somehow manage to be able to 134 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:47,730 Sean Aylmer: get the time where you are not answering Slack messages 135 00:07:47,730 --> 00:07:50,100 Sean Aylmer: or you're not thinking about anything but what you are 136 00:07:50,100 --> 00:07:53,370 Sean Aylmer: doing? Because I often find in the office that's much 137 00:07:53,370 --> 00:07:55,230 Sean Aylmer: harder than at home. At least at home there might 138 00:07:55,230 --> 00:07:57,630 Sean Aylmer: be an hour or two where I actually can really 139 00:07:57,630 --> 00:07:58,410 Sean Aylmer: do a deep dive. 140 00:07:58,710 --> 00:08:01,410 Lucas Finch: Yeah, no, no, I think that's so true. It is 141 00:08:01,410 --> 00:08:03,000 Lucas Finch: harder in the office and I think that's part of 142 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,760 Lucas Finch: what people are experiencing. In fact, many people, a lot 143 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,250 Lucas Finch: of research shows people get more work done at home. 144 00:08:08,250 --> 00:08:12,840 Lucas Finch: We did see productivity increases. It's not a perfect solution 145 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:14,460 Lucas Finch: and I think there's still a great role for in- 146 00:08:14,460 --> 00:08:19,920 Lucas Finch: person collaboration for sure. But great question, the concept of 147 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,790 Lucas Finch: deep work was popularised by a guy called Cal Newport, 148 00:08:23,790 --> 00:08:29,160 Lucas Finch: who wrote the book Deep Work. Oh, and another wonderful book which 149 00:08:29,550 --> 00:08:32,610 Lucas Finch: was super popular last year, Stolen Focus, I'm not sure 150 00:08:32,610 --> 00:08:35,400 Lucas Finch: if you read this. And it looks at more of 151 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,780 Lucas Finch: a social argument looking at how our attention has become 152 00:08:39,809 --> 00:08:45,210 Lucas Finch: eroded through the constant clickbait headlines and the short message services. 153 00:08:45,210 --> 00:08:48,090 Lucas Finch: And I feel like as a species that we've got 154 00:08:48,090 --> 00:08:51,329 Lucas Finch: a great calling to actually start to carve back control 155 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,780 Lucas Finch: over our attention. Work is a great place to actually 156 00:08:54,780 --> 00:08:58,290 Lucas Finch: do this, and we've got the ability to design work 157 00:08:58,290 --> 00:09:00,360 Lucas Finch: and it's one of the areas I get really excited 158 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:04,410 Lucas Finch: about because rather than falling into some sort of default 159 00:09:04,410 --> 00:09:07,500 Lucas Finch: ways of working, which may be waking up and scrolling 160 00:09:07,500 --> 00:09:10,440 Lucas Finch: Slack and on your email and bouncing around all day, 161 00:09:10,860 --> 00:09:14,670 Lucas Finch: we know that people often make their greatest contributions, those 162 00:09:14,670 --> 00:09:17,340 Lucas Finch: things that are going to be on your CV in 163 00:09:17,340 --> 00:09:20,880 Lucas Finch: five years time, they come through this deep focused work. 164 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,809 Lucas Finch: And so why don't we prioritise that for people? This 165 00:09:24,809 --> 00:09:28,350 Lucas Finch: is where the innovation, these solutions that our business needs 166 00:09:28,350 --> 00:09:33,449 Lucas Finch: come from, yet this kind of deep work and even 167 00:09:33,510 --> 00:09:36,809 Lucas Finch: having some time for people to engage in creativity and 168 00:09:37,410 --> 00:09:42,030 Lucas Finch: enhance their default mode network by taking unscheduled breaks, these 169 00:09:42,030 --> 00:09:46,170 Lucas Finch: strategies are the keys for performance. I think Arianna Huffington 170 00:09:46,170 --> 00:09:48,929 Lucas Finch: said downtime is a feature, not a bug. 171 00:09:49,740 --> 00:09:53,580 Sean Aylmer: Just one final question and, Lucas Finch, given that you 172 00:09:53,580 --> 00:09:56,250 Sean Aylmer: are the Global Head of Wellbeing at Xero, presumably Xero 173 00:09:56,460 --> 00:10:00,300 Sean Aylmer: is obviously putting money behind it. What about Australian companies 174 00:10:00,300 --> 00:10:04,140 Sean Aylmer: generally, and let's say in the listed space, do you 175 00:10:04,140 --> 00:10:08,880 Sean Aylmer: think that companies have traveled down the path far enough 176 00:10:09,150 --> 00:10:12,960 Sean Aylmer: to really understand the benefits of wellbeing and are putting 177 00:10:13,350 --> 00:10:16,020 Sean Aylmer: resources behind it? Or do we still have some way 178 00:10:16,020 --> 00:10:16,440 Sean Aylmer: to go? 179 00:10:17,550 --> 00:10:21,000 Lucas Finch: I think we've got some way to go. There's been 180 00:10:21,179 --> 00:10:24,120 Lucas Finch: maybe a few evolutions of workplace wellbeing programs. The first 181 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,220 Lucas Finch: one being fruit bowls and yoga classes. 182 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:27,569 Sean Aylmer: Love those. 183 00:10:28,380 --> 00:10:30,809 Lucas Finch: Which are great. I like fruit and yoga. 184 00:10:31,050 --> 00:10:31,290 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. 185 00:10:31,500 --> 00:10:36,059 Lucas Finch: The next evolution includes those and extends understanding those factors 186 00:10:36,059 --> 00:10:40,439 Lucas Finch: which impact things like productivity and burnout. And these factors were, 187 00:10:40,470 --> 00:10:43,980 Lucas Finch: which we've been talking about today, really became more recognised 188 00:10:43,980 --> 00:10:47,790 Lucas Finch: and there's more people well versed in these practices. However, 189 00:10:47,850 --> 00:10:52,679 Lucas Finch: the implementation and rigour in getting strategic plans in place 190 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:54,900 Lucas Finch: in a lot of companies is something that's still developing 191 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,510 Lucas Finch: and it's a super exciting space because now people are 192 00:10:57,510 --> 00:11:00,780 Lucas Finch: seeing opportunities with the emergence of hybrid working to really 193 00:11:00,780 --> 00:11:02,430 Lucas Finch: put some of these strategies in place. 194 00:11:02,700 --> 00:11:04,620 Sean Aylmer: Lucas, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 195 00:11:05,340 --> 00:11:06,179 Lucas Finch: Thanks so much. 196 00:11:06,450 --> 00:11:09,750 Sean Aylmer: That was Lucas Finch, Global Head of Wellbeing at Xero. 197 00:11:09,809 --> 00:11:12,480 Sean Aylmer: He'll be at the Accounting Business Expo in Melbourne on 198 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,120 Sean Aylmer: March 14 and 15, which is a supporter of this 199 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,780 Sean Aylmer: podcast. Just search Accounting Business Expo for more. This is 200 00:11:18,780 --> 00:11:20,880 Sean Aylmer: the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join us every morning 201 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,280 Sean Aylmer: for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's most 202 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,790 Sean Aylmer: popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer, enjoy your day.