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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fear and Greed Sunday feature on Michael Thompson.

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Speaker 1: It was a huge week this week for energy in Australia, headline,

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Speaker 1: of course, by the coalition's announcement of its nuclear policy,

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Speaker 1: which we are going to hear plenty about in the

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Speaker 1: lead up to the election, but there was a lot

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Speaker 1: happening as well in the renewables space. We had a

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Speaker 1: French backed company signing deals to proceed with the second

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Speaker 1: stage of Omega four billion dollar wind farm in Victoria,

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Speaker 1: and a few days prior to that, the federal government

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Speaker 1: gave the green light to a massive offshore wind farm

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Speaker 1: stretching along the New South Wales southern coastline. It is

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Speaker 1: I think a very good time to revisit an interview

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Speaker 1: that Sean Aylmer did in October of twenty twenty two

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Speaker 1: with Brett Wickham, who is the local boss of Aciona Enaheir,

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Speaker 1: the Spanish infrastructure giant's energy division. Now we spoke to

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Speaker 1: Brett because at the time that company had just started

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Speaker 1: work on what will ultimately be one of the biggest

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Speaker 1: onshore wind farms in the world, and it's happening here

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Speaker 1: in Australia. In Queensland. It is a great behind the

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Speaker 1: scenes look at this aspect of renewable energy with one

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Speaker 1: of the biggest players in the world. I hope you

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Speaker 1: enjoy it.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aelmer.

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Speaker 2: We've talked plenty on this podcast about the shift to

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Speaker 2: renewable energy. Today I wanted to talk to one of

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Speaker 2: the companies driving the change in Australia and building the

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Speaker 2: infrastructure that we'll see it to actually become a reality.

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Speaker 2: Brett Wickham is the local managing director of Akfiona and

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Speaker 2: here the energy arm of the Spanish infrastructure Giant. Brett,

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Fear and Greed.

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Speaker 3: Thanks very much for having me.

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Speaker 2: It's a pleasure, such a big topic to cover. Let's

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Speaker 2: start sort of perhaps on the specifics. In the last

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Speaker 2: month or so, you've started building the two billion dollar

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Speaker 2: McIntyre Wind Precinct in Queensland. Once complete, it'll be the

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Speaker 2: largest wind farm in the Southern Hemisphere. Just how do

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Speaker 2: we get our head around the scope and the size

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Speaker 2: of the project, No mean, how long it'll take to build,

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Speaker 2: how much it will cost, how much electricity it'll generate.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, look, good question. I mean, the project has been

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Speaker 3: I guess on the development pipeline for about seven or

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Speaker 3: eight years now, and it started off as a very

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Speaker 3: small project which didn't really have a grid solution for it.

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Speaker 3: The smaller voltage transmission network that we wanted to connect

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Speaker 3: it to it wasn't really viable. So we challenged our

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Speaker 3: team internally to you know, to make it big and

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Speaker 3: see if we could connect to the three thirty lines

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Speaker 3: which are adjacent to the site sixty kilometers away. So

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Speaker 3: that's how this sort of embryonic stage of the project was.

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Speaker 3: It grew from about five hundred megawats. To connect a

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Speaker 3: line that far, you need to make the project quite large.

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Speaker 3: Then we decided, well, for security purposes, we needed to

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Speaker 3: make that line double circuit, so then you make it larger.

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Speaker 3: Now that's where we sort of sit at the thousand

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Speaker 3: megawats that we're at today. I must admit though the

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Speaker 3: thousand megawats is being principally driven by the size of

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Speaker 3: the modern turbine. Turbines on site are a five point

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Speaker 3: seven megawatt turbine, and twenty years ago when I started

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Speaker 3: in the industry, we're a little over a megawatt, So

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Speaker 3: you know, it sort of shows you that five fold

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Speaker 3: increase a thousand megawats, to put in context, will power

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Speaker 3: about seven hundred thousand homes. So you know, it's a

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Speaker 3: really meaningful, chunky project which sort of helps us with

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Speaker 3: the transition towards a lower mission's future, and certainly with

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Speaker 3: the recently mandated targets for twenty thirty and again stepping

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Speaker 3: forward to twenty fifty. So two billion dollars well one

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Speaker 3: point ninety six I think to be correct across both

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Speaker 3: wind farms. So there's two win wind farms on the precinct.

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Speaker 3: There's the nine hundred and twenty three megawatt McIntire wind farm,

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Speaker 3: which is one hundred and sixty two turbines, and then

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Speaker 3: we hope very soon we'll be able to start construction

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Speaker 3: on the eighteen turbine one hundred and two megawatt Carrara

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Speaker 3: wind farm for clean.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so you're building the wind farms, you're building the

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Speaker 2: connectivity to the grid.

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Speaker 3: Yep, that correct, that's right, Okay.

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Speaker 2: So it I mean, it is a massive project. In

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Speaker 2: the last few days we've had quite a few of

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Speaker 2: the big energy guys coming out and sort of saying

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Speaker 2: there's been a conference on and they've sort of said,

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Speaker 2: you know, the transition to renewables isn't the question anymore.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of how fast can we do it the infrastructure,

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Speaker 2: which it's just not there. We're not capable of doing

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Speaker 2: it at this point. How big a challenge is it

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Speaker 2: to get something one point ninety six billion dollar wind

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Speaker 2: precinct up and then beyond that to actually have a

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Speaker 2: grid that allows for this to all happen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, look, it's a great question. I mean, in the

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Speaker 3: case of McIntyre, we specifically could only connect this size

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Speaker 3: of project in a very very robust part of the network,

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Speaker 3: So we worked for a lot period of time with

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Speaker 3: powerling so the TNSP in Queensland to select the right

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Speaker 3: location and connecting near mill Merit where we'll be connecting

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Speaker 3: into the three thirty lines, is the right place to

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Speaker 3: connect a thousand megawatts and hopefully in the future we'll

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Speaker 3: be able to connect some more there. But you're right,

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Speaker 3: the challenge for anewables at the moment is getting the

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Speaker 3: right location on the network. Whilst in parallel, you know,

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Speaker 3: the federal government's announced the rewiring the Nation Fund, and

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Speaker 3: there's various interconnector upgrades that are going and different backbones

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Speaker 3: that are being put in for transmission. I guess the

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Speaker 3: challenge is trying to keep building whilst those new transmission

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Speaker 3: interconnectors are coming over the next well, look it'll be five, ten,

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Speaker 3: fifteen years. But certainly I think the benefit of projects

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Speaker 3: like McIntyre is that we've got the capacity. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the transmission line we're building for McIntyre is, as I said,

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Speaker 3: a double circuit thirty kV line.

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Speaker 2: Brett, I've got to jump in. I'd love to know

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Speaker 2: what a double circuit three thirty kV line is, but

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Speaker 2: I don't. Just for the people like me. It's kind

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Speaker 2: of how put that into words that I can understand.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, it's like having two extension cords basically from

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Speaker 3: where we're connecting to the transmission network up to where

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Speaker 3: the wind farms are. So we talk about double circuits

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Speaker 3: because basically you've got them redundancy. So you're running two

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Speaker 3: thousand megawatts circuits which can run independently, okay, and we

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Speaker 3: do that for redundancy, and you know, if there's outages

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Speaker 3: on one line, we can transfer to the other side.

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Speaker 3: It just gives you better redundancy, It gives you a

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Speaker 3: better capacity. It gives power link and the way they

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Speaker 3: operate the network more flexibility. So when we talk about

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Speaker 3: double circuits, we're basically just putting in two highways for

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Speaker 3: their electricity to travel on.

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Speaker 2: That's all, okay, So do you expect that. I mean,

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Speaker 2: over time there'll be a bunch of high wind precincts

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Speaker 2: around the country, or it might be a hydro precinct,

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Speaker 2: or it might be a solar precinct. That type of

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Speaker 2: it is that kind of where we're going to get to.

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Speaker 3: I think it's it's where we're going to get to.

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Speaker 3: With respect to the renewable energy zones that almost all

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Speaker 3: the states are talking about. The benefit of a renewable

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Speaker 3: energy zone is you have projects which will share infrastructure.

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Speaker 3: You also have the benefit to the local communities that

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Speaker 3: you're not building a spider where of transmission lines across

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Speaker 3: to service one project. You know you'll end up with

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Speaker 3: one wind farm here with a line going and then

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Speaker 3: you'll have another wind farm with a line going in

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Speaker 3: the opposite direction. That's not the best outcome for the

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Speaker 3: communities and so forth. So I think the idea of

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Speaker 3: having renewable energy zones. It also allows the tnsps and

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Speaker 3: the people who are an EMO, who are operating the

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Speaker 3: transmission network to then be able to establish the rules,

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Speaker 3: the conditions, the technical infant structure to be able to

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Speaker 3: support connecting that volume of renewables in a single location.

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Speaker 3: So I think the idea of you know, New South

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Speaker 3: Wales has got resis, Queensland are pushing resis Victoria or

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Speaker 3: pushing resis. I think it is the way of the future.

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Speaker 3: But also I think the way of the future is

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Speaker 3: these larger scale projects because they will allow you to

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Speaker 3: then have projects which are whilst they're larger, they allow

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Speaker 3: you to have the benefit of being a bit further

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Speaker 3: away from communities in better wing zones and having less

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Speaker 3: community impacts. So you know, building a fifty megawatt project

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Speaker 3: cannot sustain a seven or eighty kilometer transmission line. You

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Speaker 3: have to go bigger. But going bigger and having a

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Speaker 3: longer transmission line means you can be further away in

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Speaker 3: a areas that have better wind but b areas which

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Speaker 3: are a bit more remote and rural and perhaps away

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Speaker 3: from more populous areas.

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Speaker 2: Stay with me, Brett, we'll be back in a minute.

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Speaker 2: My guest this morning is Brett Wicker managing director of

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Speaker 2: Acciona and A Here. So, I mean we talk a

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Speaker 2: lot about the need for renewables and everyone sort of

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Speaker 2: accepts that, and then we talk about what happens to

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Speaker 2: the coal workers. We don't talk a lot about what

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Speaker 2: about the communities that are now living in potentially living

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Speaker 2: in precincts where they're having potentially noisy wind farms nearby.

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Speaker 2: You must have to bring communities with you. Has it

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Speaker 2: been an issue so far?

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Speaker 3: You're right, I mean you have to engage with communities

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Speaker 3: from the first step in having the concept to your

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Speaker 3: idea of having a wind farm. So whether that's like

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Speaker 3: us doing an initial social impact assessment of what's important

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Speaker 3: for communities in those areas what's not important, And certainly

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Speaker 3: in the Acciona in A Here's position, I think we

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Speaker 3: pride ourselves in perhaps not what projects we do build,

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Speaker 3: but what we won't build, because there's certainly some areas

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Speaker 3: where you shouldn't you shouldn't put you know, wind farms

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Speaker 3: and solar plants and so forth, because you need the

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Speaker 3: required setbacks you need you know, you need to take,

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Speaker 3: as you said, the community on board with you. So

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Speaker 3: in the case of McIntyre, social impact assessment right up

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Speaker 3: front to find out what the community wants, what they

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Speaker 3: consider that they need out of projects like these. We've

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Speaker 3: set up a community Engagement Committee with independent local businesses,

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Speaker 3: community members who's got an independent chair who has regular

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Speaker 3: monthly meetings on engaging with the community about the project.

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Speaker 3: We also then have a shop front in the town

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Speaker 3: of Warwick which has been open for the last two years,

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Speaker 3: which is essentially you know, you can put out all

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Speaker 3: the I guess newsletters, newspaper articles, you know, updates, but

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Speaker 3: you're really in some communities need to be on the

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Speaker 3: ground to engage with people. You sometimes have older community

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Speaker 3: members who don't aren't that savvy with emails and so forth,

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Speaker 3: but you need to have almost what we have a

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Speaker 3: dropping center where they can come in and ask questions

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Speaker 3: and engage and so on and so forth. We have

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Speaker 3: a dedicated community relations team and manage all that for us.

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Speaker 3: In the case of McIntyre, it's been nothing but unequivocal

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Speaker 3: support for the project, okay, which we say is a

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Speaker 3: huge positive, but we don't treat it with any level

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Speaker 3: of you know, we must be doing everything right. We

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Speaker 3: continue to have to engage, We continue to talk to people,

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Speaker 3: whether they be landowners or local businesses or the local shires,

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Speaker 3: whatever it might be, to make sure that all the

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Speaker 3: way through where you know, trying to underpromise and over deliver.

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Speaker 3: Our model is to develop, build and operate for thirty years.

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Speaker 3: So I guess the community does have the benefit when

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Speaker 3: they're dealing with AXIOA that you know they're dealing with

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Speaker 3: the same company all the way through.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So when is one part of the renewable puzzles solar, hydro,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. But it seems to be a very big

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Speaker 2: part of the puzzle really, or a big piece of

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Speaker 2: the puzzle. What makes Australia so suited to wind energy?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Look, I'm not sure it's any more or less

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Speaker 3: suited than any other country in the world. I mean,

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Speaker 3: what the difference with Australia with countries like South Korea

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Speaker 3: Japan is obviously our land mass. With respect to the

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Speaker 3: wind speeds we see in Australia, it's no more or

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Speaker 3: less beneficial than any other country we operate in. So

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Speaker 3: Aciana ener he operates in about twenty countries globally with

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Speaker 3: all sort of proven and renewable technologies, and I wouldn't

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Speaker 3: say that the wind resource or the solar resource is

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Speaker 3: any better or any worse than any of the other

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Speaker 3: countries we operate. We do have the land math here.

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Speaker 3: I mean Spain talks about building one hundred or two

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Speaker 3: hundred megawat projects is a maximum. Well, we're going to

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Speaker 3: a giga what you know, future projects will be even

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Speaker 3: a lot bigger than that. So obviously we just have

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Speaker 3: an abundance of land. And with respect to Acciona operating here,

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Speaker 3: we have a good rule of law. We've got a

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Speaker 3: stable government, you know, and there's lots of reasons. We've

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Speaker 3: been here for twenty years now, Axiana, and this will

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Speaker 3: be Mecantize our sixth wind farm, so you know, we

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Speaker 3: see this as a is a very good place to operate.

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Speaker 2: Just finally, you mentioned government there. The new government has

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Speaker 2: introduced an energy policy. Just parking the value judgment on

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Speaker 2: whether it's a good or bad policy, or whether it's

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Speaker 2: coalition or labor. Is it helpful though, to have a

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Speaker 2: policy at least.

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Speaker 3: Oh, no doubt it's helpful to have a policy. I mean,

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Speaker 3: we've all got to have you know, we've been through

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Speaker 3: at a federal government. We've been through so many negs

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Speaker 3: and you know rats and you know energy policies, and

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Speaker 3: I think we're changed as energy policies more than we've

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Speaker 3: changed prime ministers in the last ten to fifteen years.

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Speaker 3: But having one consistent policy, and now you know, having

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Speaker 3: it placed in law, the forty three percent missions reduction

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Speaker 3: target by twenty thirty, it gets us going. I mean,

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Speaker 3: we all have an appetite to invest, We're ready to invest,

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Speaker 3: we're ready to build. We are running out of time rapidly,

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Speaker 3: so you know, we need to accelerate. But at least

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Speaker 3: having that firm policy then allows companies to make decisions

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Speaker 3: about you know, bringing capital into Australia, about continuing to

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Speaker 3: develop projects, about being able to recruit people, you know,

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Speaker 3: and it helps us with solving those challenges. The state

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Speaker 3: governments in the last well since I've been in the

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Speaker 3: industry for twenty years, have probably been doing a lot

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Speaker 3: of the heavy lifting. But without that sort of global

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Speaker 3: federal policy at the top level, it was very difficult.

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Speaker 3: It was a bit piecemeal and so forth. But now

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Speaker 3: that we've got that locked in, you know, everyone working

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Speaker 3: very very hard. Seven you know, I think I calculated

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Speaker 3: the other day it's two thousand, six hundred and fifty

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Speaker 3: days odd until twenty thirty. Wow, that's not long when

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Speaker 3: you're considering building renewables projects and what we have to do.

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Speaker 2: Brett, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: That was Brett Wickham, Managing director of Aktheona and Aahir.

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Speaker 2: This is the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Remember this

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Speaker 2: information is general in nature and you should always seek

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Speaker 2: professional advice before making any investment decisions. Join us every

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Speaker 2: morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's

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Speaker 2: most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Elmer. Enjoy your day.