Speaker 1: From Schwartz Media. I'm Ashlin McGhee.
Speaker 2: This is seven Am Belly. A week goes by when
Speaker 2: the Department of Home Affairs isn't under the blow torch
Speaker 2: of media or political scrutiny. In one way, the level
Speaker 2: of scrutiny is to be expected. When you've got a
Speaker 2: department so huge it takes in security, intelligence, immigration and
Speaker 2: policing functions, some fourteen thousand staff under the one secretary.
Speaker 2: Then flare ups are kind of inevitable. The question is, though,
Speaker 2: should one department have that much power?
Speaker 1: Today?
Speaker 2: The Saturday Paper's chief political correspondent Karen Barlow on the
Speaker 2: inner workings of the super Department. It's Monday, June seventeenth.
Speaker 3: Karen.
Speaker 2: You've been looking into the Home Affairs to and it's
Speaker 2: often called a superdepartment.
Speaker 1: Tell me about why that is.
Speaker 4: Well, it's super because there's a lot. There's a lot
Speaker 4: to it. It's a domestic security and social cohesion throw together.
Speaker 4: But the idea is that you can't have one without
Speaker 4: the other. Previously there was an Immigration and Multicultural Affairs department,
Speaker 4: but now this is so much more. Border Force really
Speaker 4: sort of was the starting point Operation Sovereign Borders, which
Speaker 4: was created with Scott Morrison.
Speaker 5: You have been brought to this place here because you
Speaker 5: have sought to it illegally enter Australia by boat.
Speaker 4: Australia had years of dealing with the post September eleven
Speaker 4: environment and this supercharged debate over borders and asylum seekers.
Speaker 6: From July next year, the federal government wants to replace
Speaker 6: Customs with a new agency it calls the Australian Border Force.
Speaker 6: It's a model similar to the Department of Homeland Security
Speaker 6: in the United States.
Speaker 4: What really made him as Immigration Minister was Border Force
Speaker 4: and that was something that brought in guns and uniforms
Speaker 4: to this big force that was dealing with the arrivals
Speaker 4: of asylum seekers by boat.
Speaker 7: ABF officer would be positioned at various locations around the CBD,
Speaker 7: speaking with any individuals we cross paths with. You should
Speaker 7: be aware of the conditions of your visa. If you
Speaker 7: commit visa fraud, you should know it's only a matter
Speaker 7: of time before you get caught. And of course this
Speaker 7: has raised many questions about the legality of that and
Speaker 7: also how much right the ABF does have on those streets.
Speaker 4: Of course, and then in twenty seventeen we had this
Speaker 4: push to pull together it all into this super Home
Speaker 4: Affairs Department.
Speaker 8: In what he calls the biggest national security shakeup in
Speaker 8: forty years, Malcolm Turnbull has announced a new super Portfolio
Speaker 8: of Home Affairs, headed up by Peter Dunton.
Speaker 4: This is Malcolm Turnbull's time as Prime Minister.
Speaker 5: We can't take and if it ain't broke, don't fix
Speaker 5: it approach to security arrangements. We're taking the best elements
Speaker 5: of our intelligence and national security community and making them better.
Speaker 4: This is something that was pushed by this charismatic, hawkish
Speaker 4: and very sort of precise bureaucrat called Mike Pazzulo, and
Speaker 4: we had the first Home Affairs Minister as Peter Dutton,
Speaker 4: and we all known now as the Opposition leader. But
Speaker 4: this is something that really sort of got pulled together
Speaker 4: by these two hard edged individuals into Home Affairs. So
Speaker 4: we've got ASIO, we've got the Australian Federal Police, we've
Speaker 4: got Border Force, the old Customs and now with the
Speaker 4: Operations sovereign Borders pulled together with Immigration. A lot of
Speaker 4: different things all threaded together to create this super department.
Speaker 4: And this is something that was really interesting because for
Speaker 4: the first time since nineteen forty five. We don't have
Speaker 4: a standalone immigration department for this nation of migrants. So
Speaker 4: it's a really fascinating pool together and it's been troubled.
Speaker 2: And so then Labour's elected to government. What was the
Speaker 2: situation like at Home Affairs?
Speaker 1: What did they find?
Speaker 4: What Labor found when it came to office was a
Speaker 4: hard edged portfolio that was riddled with problems. So there
Speaker 4: was visa scams. There were enormous amounts of litigation against
Speaker 4: the minister, which is fairly normal but increasing. There was
Speaker 4: offshore detention, and there was this eternal problem of indefinite
Speaker 4: detentionion and it's seen as a department that is not
Speaker 4: something that people want to work for. There was also
Speaker 4: an issue of the wilderness of the department and they
Speaker 4: immediately did something about that and they sent the Australian
Speaker 4: Federal Police back to the Attorney General's Department and then
Speaker 4: later on established the Emergency Management Agency to deal with disasters.
Speaker 4: So they sort of cut something back, added something else
Speaker 4: on and there is still this eternal question about what
Speaker 4: to do with this, and that's something that has not
Speaker 4: been answered yet. And so Mike Pezzullo, the Hawkish well connected,
Speaker 4: very determined bureaucrat in charge of Home Affairs. He ruled
Speaker 4: Home Affairs with an iron fist. There's a story that
Speaker 4: Abil Risby, a former Immigration Deputy secretary, tells about him.
Speaker 4: He said that when soon after taking over the portfolio,
Speaker 4: he said to staff, we're not care bears anymore. Now,
Speaker 4: Puzzullo denies he said that, but Risby says he knows
Speaker 4: people in the room. So anyway, that story still circulates.
Speaker 4: Getting back to Puzzullo, he was there and they brought
Speaker 4: on Clara O'Neil as the Home Affairs Minister, and Andrew Giles,
Speaker 4: often seen as a lieutenant of Anthony Albanizi, he was
Speaker 4: brought in as Immigration Minister, and Immigration is still not
Speaker 4: a cabinet portfolio. He is the junior minister to Clara o'neion,
Speaker 4: So they are the senior figures in this troubled department.
Speaker 4: And it took a while for some of the controversies
Speaker 4: to emerge under Labor, but they were there, bubbling under
Speaker 4: the surface.
Speaker 1: But of course he's no longer secretary.
Speaker 4: What happened, no, well, it's quite a controversy. Look, there
Speaker 4: were a few things that happened while Mike Bazillo was secretary.
Speaker 7: Do you accept that you made dreadful errors of judgment
Speaker 7: that brought your public service career to an end?
Speaker 9: Yes, I made mistakes and I need to own those
Speaker 9: mistakes and I need to learn from them.
Speaker 4: And there was one that finally took the cake, and
Speaker 4: that was the fact that some leaked inappropriate text messages,
Speaker 4: the whole stream of them were leaked to the media
Speaker 4: showing inappropriate relations with a liberal powerbroker and former state
Speaker 4: director of the Liberal Party, Scott Briggs.
Speaker 5: Mike Bazillo has been asked to stand aside while this
Speaker 5: investigation takes place. This is one of the most powerful
Speaker 5: positions in the public service.
Speaker 4: He was talking about suggesting political promotions, which is not
Speaker 4: seemly for a nonpartisan bureaucrat.
Speaker 9: It's something that I regret. I made a mistake. I'm
Speaker 9: moving on. I want to focus on making a positive
Speaker 9: contribution to our national security, but in a very different way.
Speaker 2: Now, Karen, it feels like Karli, a month goes by
Speaker 2: without some kind of flare up politically that involves home affairs,
Speaker 2: and again it's under a huge amount of scrutiny in
Speaker 2: this current immigration debate.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me what's been going on there.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're talking about the overturning of visa cancelations made
Speaker 4: by the tribunal under directions from the minister. These are
Speaker 4: a tribunal cases that can be to do with awful
Speaker 4: cases such as sex offenders. There are other criminal matters.
Speaker 4: These are what I'm told by Abil risby the former
Speaker 4: Immigration Deputy Sectory. Often line will cases that we don't
Speaker 4: know the full details too, but they get blown up
Speaker 4: in the media. So there's huge pressure on the department.
Speaker 4: I mean, I'd say there's always pressure on the Home
Speaker 4: Affairs Department and Immigration in particular, which also places pressure
Speaker 4: on Stephanie Foster, who is the replacement for Mike Pizzulo.
Speaker 4: She came up as an Associate Secretary in charge of Immigration.
Speaker 4: She also came from the Department of Prime Minister and
Speaker 4: Cabinet and she has a defense background. She's very capable.
Speaker 4: She's had quite a large and interesting rise to be
Speaker 4: in charge of the Home Affairs Department, but there are
Speaker 4: pressures that she say had to do with resourcing that
Speaker 4: she hasn't been able to overcome. After the break new
Speaker 4: leader new vision House Home Affairs fearing under its new Boss, Karen,
Speaker 4: we've been talking about the Home Affairs Department and what's
Speaker 4: going on there.
Speaker 2: After Mike Pizzulo was ousted. What's his replacement. Stephanie Foster
Speaker 2: had to say about how the department's faring.
Speaker 9: I now call officers from the Department of Home Affairs,
Speaker 9: including Australian Border Force in relation to cross portfolio, corporate
Speaker 9: and general matters.
Speaker 1: Miss Foster welcome.
Speaker 9: Would you like to make it.
Speaker 4: Stephanie Foster has made the large admission that her department
Speaker 4: has broke protocol by not informing the Minister of concerning cases.
Speaker 8: In relation to the Direction ninety nine issue. That Minister
Speaker 8: for Immigration Andrew Giles has essentially thrown the Department under
Speaker 8: the bus in question time today and said it's your
Speaker 8: fault that he wasn't advised of a number of these
Speaker 8: cases being overturned by the AAT.
Speaker 9: Is that right?
Speaker 10: It's correct that he wasn't informed, Senator.
Speaker 4: So here we have the Minister blaming the department for
Speaker 4: not informing him of of concerning cases.
Speaker 10: We did not adequately resource that function and it was
Speaker 10: not being done in a timely way, and we had
Speaker 10: not advised Minister Giles of that particular case, that.
Speaker 8: Particular case, or there are a number of cases that
Speaker 8: he was asked about today and that are.
Speaker 10: In the media, a number of cases, Senator.
Speaker 4: But this is an issue for resourcing for Stephanie Foster,
Speaker 4: and she's trying to get to the bottom of it.
Speaker 8: When did this become apparent.
Speaker 10: I became aware of its Senator, just in the last
Speaker 10: couple of days.
Speaker 8: As a result of the media coverage about these cases.
Speaker 10: Protect a correct Senator.
Speaker 4: Now, I've spoken to insiders who say that it's quite
Speaker 4: odd that this has taken place and that there should
Speaker 4: be enough resourcing in this area because we're talking about
Speaker 4: a particular area within immigration, which is to do with
Speaker 4: visa compliance, which is always an area of controversy. It's
Speaker 4: also to do with the legal area, which is also
Speaker 4: always where resourced, so I'm told, but resourcing something has
Speaker 4: not happened in an appropriate way for the Minister to
Speaker 4: be fully across what has happened in his portfolio, particularly
Speaker 4: to do with these concerning cases. The other interesting thing
Speaker 4: about Stephanie Foster, she also popped up in estimates not
Speaker 4: so long ago. She was seen as breaking protocol. I
Speaker 4: guess for a nonpartisan bureaucrat she was seen winking during
Speaker 4: an appearance in Estimates and that cause controversy at the time.
Speaker 4: She is a very interesting character. She's also been widely
Speaker 4: reported as driving around Canberra in a red Porsche.
Speaker 2: Talk to me a little bit more about the relationship
Speaker 2: between the Senior Minister Clara O'Neil and her secretary, Stephanie Foster.
Speaker 4: It is an interesting one. You'd hear from Clara O'Neil
Speaker 4: and Andrew Garles say that they have a very warm
Speaker 4: and constructive relationship with Stephanie Foster. There is a bit
Speaker 4: of a pubblick interest in the relationship because we have
Speaker 4: had earlier this year the reporting that Stephanie Foster was
Speaker 4: seen leaving the Ministerial wing of Parliament House in tears.
Speaker 4: This wasn't denied by clar O'Neil at the time, but
Speaker 4: again she stressed that there is a warm and constructive
Speaker 4: relationship they do, she says, work well together. But we
Speaker 4: have this admission here about resourcing that just keeps going on.
Speaker 4: We keep hearing this issue about home affairs. It's so large.
Speaker 4: The Labor Government has put more money into it, but
Speaker 4: it's still not enough to deal with the large and
Speaker 4: many pronged areas that Home Affairs has to deal with.
Speaker 2: So we've got a cumbersome, somewhat dysfunctional mega department that's
Speaker 2: responsible for some pretty life altering decisions there.
Speaker 1: We ask how it's.
Speaker 2: Impacting the people who actually have to interact with Home Affairs.
Speaker 4: Well, look, it is every day still grind away on
Speaker 4: the many areas that it has responsibility for. In the
Speaker 4: immigration area, there is a visa backlog that is slowly
Speaker 4: being whittled away. There are I'm told about eighteen thousand
Speaker 4: litigation cases against the minister. That's a huge case load
Speaker 4: for the legal area of Home Affairs. We recently had
Speaker 4: a bit of a slice into an area of Home
Speaker 4: Affairs and audit that the Audit Office did into migration
Speaker 4: agents and the regulation of them by Home Affairs, and
Speaker 4: that put that back in the spotlight. It pretty much
Speaker 4: found there was no regulation of migration agents by Home Affairs.
Speaker 4: This is a troubled area with dodgy operators and some
Speaker 4: quite vulnerable people like transitional workers are most at risk
Speaker 4: here and that was an area of concern and Home
Speaker 4: Affairs says it's going to be responding to all of
Speaker 4: those recommendations. But this is not just about immigration. This
Speaker 4: is about law enforcement, this is about but domestic spye
Speaker 4: with Asio, this is about citizenship, and it's about borders,
Speaker 4: and it's about so much more. And there's big questions
Speaker 4: about the future of Home affairs. I think there are
Speaker 4: always questions about whether it should be broken up a
Speaker 4: little bit more. But I think it will always be
Speaker 4: an area of controversy, mainly because it is just so
Speaker 4: politically charged. It is something that is always a hot
Speaker 4: topic for the major parties and even some of the
Speaker 4: minor parties like the Greens. It's something that we'll be
Speaker 4: talking about for many years to come.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for your time, Karen.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 11: Also in the news today, Bruce Lamman is scheduled to
Speaker 11: appear for a committal hearing in a Toowomba Magistrate's court
Speaker 11: today facing two counts of rape. Lahman has not been
Speaker 11: required to enter a plea in the case, but it
Speaker 11: is expected he will plead not guilty if the magistrate
Speaker 11: rules that a trial will proceed, and Indian authorities are
Speaker 11: likely to prosecute one of India's most famous living authors,
Speaker 11: Aaron Dardi Roy, with anti terrorism and sedition charges because
Speaker 11: she allegedly commented back in twenty ten that the disputed
Speaker 11: territory of Kashmir should be independent from India. The charges
Speaker 11: have been given the go ahead by a member of
Speaker 11: Indian Prime Minister Narendromodi's ruling party, which has expanded terrorism
Speaker 11: laws to silence critics. I'm Scott Mitchell. This is seven
Speaker 11: a m. Thanks for listening. Ashlan McGee will be back
Speaker 11: with you tomorrow one