WEBVTT - How Home Affairs became a scandal factory

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Ashlin McGhee.

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<v Speaker 2>This is seven Am Belly. A week goes by when

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<v Speaker 2>the Department of Home Affairs isn't under the blow torch

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<v Speaker 2>of media or political scrutiny. In one way, the level

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<v Speaker 2>of scrutiny is to be expected. When you've got a

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<v Speaker 2>department so huge it takes in security, intelligence, immigration and

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<v Speaker 2>policing functions, some fourteen thousand staff under the one secretary.

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<v Speaker 2>Then flare ups are kind of inevitable. The question is, though,

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<v Speaker 2>should one department have that much power?

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<v Speaker 1>Today?

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<v Speaker 2>The Saturday Paper's chief political correspondent Karen Barlow on the

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<v Speaker 2>inner workings of the super Department. It's Monday, June seventeenth.

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<v Speaker 3>Karen.

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<v Speaker 2>You've been looking into the Home Affairs to and it's

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<v Speaker 2>often called a superdepartment.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell me about why that is.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, it's super because there's a lot. There's a lot

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<v Speaker 4>to it. It's a domestic security and social cohesion throw together.

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<v Speaker 4>But the idea is that you can't have one without

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<v Speaker 4>the other. Previously there was an Immigration and Multicultural Affairs department,

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<v Speaker 4>but now this is so much more. Border Force really

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<v Speaker 4>sort of was the starting point Operation Sovereign Borders, which

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<v Speaker 4>was created with Scott Morrison.

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<v Speaker 5>You have been brought to this place here because you

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<v Speaker 5>have sought to it illegally enter Australia by boat.

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<v Speaker 4>Australia had years of dealing with the post September eleven

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<v Speaker 4>environment and this supercharged debate over borders and asylum seekers.

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<v Speaker 6>From July next year, the federal government wants to replace

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<v Speaker 6>Customs with a new agency it calls the Australian Border Force.

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<v Speaker 6>It's a model similar to the Department of Homeland Security

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<v Speaker 6>in the United States.

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<v Speaker 4>What really made him as Immigration Minister was Border Force

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<v Speaker 4>and that was something that brought in guns and uniforms

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<v Speaker 4>to this big force that was dealing with the arrivals

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<v Speaker 4>of asylum seekers by boat.

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<v Speaker 7>ABF officer would be positioned at various locations around the CBD,

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<v Speaker 7>speaking with any individuals we cross paths with. You should

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<v Speaker 7>be aware of the conditions of your visa. If you

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<v Speaker 7>commit visa fraud, you should know it's only a matter

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<v Speaker 7>of time before you get caught. And of course this

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<v Speaker 7>has raised many questions about the legality of that and

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<v Speaker 7>also how much right the ABF does have on those streets.

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<v Speaker 4>Of course, and then in twenty seventeen we had this

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<v Speaker 4>push to pull together it all into this super Home

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<v Speaker 4>Affairs Department.

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<v Speaker 8>In what he calls the biggest national security shakeup in

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<v Speaker 8>forty years, Malcolm Turnbull has announced a new super Portfolio

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<v Speaker 8>of Home Affairs, headed up by Peter Dunton.

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<v Speaker 4>This is Malcolm Turnbull's time as Prime Minister.

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<v Speaker 5>We can't take and if it ain't broke, don't fix

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<v Speaker 5>it approach to security arrangements. We're taking the best elements

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<v Speaker 5>of our intelligence and national security community and making them better.

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<v Speaker 4>This is something that was pushed by this charismatic, hawkish

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<v Speaker 4>and very sort of precise bureaucrat called Mike Pazzulo, and

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<v Speaker 4>we had the first Home Affairs Minister as Peter Dutton,

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<v Speaker 4>and we all known now as the Opposition leader. But

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<v Speaker 4>this is something that really sort of got pulled together

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<v Speaker 4>by these two hard edged individuals into Home Affairs. So

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<v Speaker 4>we've got ASIO, we've got the Australian Federal Police, we've

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<v Speaker 4>got Border Force, the old Customs and now with the

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<v Speaker 4>Operations sovereign Borders pulled together with Immigration. A lot of

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<v Speaker 4>different things all threaded together to create this super department.

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<v Speaker 4>And this is something that was really interesting because for

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<v Speaker 4>the first time since nineteen forty five. We don't have

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<v Speaker 4>a standalone immigration department for this nation of migrants. So

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<v Speaker 4>it's a really fascinating pool together and it's been troubled.

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<v Speaker 2>And so then Labour's elected to government. What was the

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<v Speaker 2>situation like at Home Affairs?

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<v Speaker 1>What did they find?

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<v Speaker 4>What Labor found when it came to office was a

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<v Speaker 4>hard edged portfolio that was riddled with problems. So there

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<v Speaker 4>was visa scams. There were enormous amounts of litigation against

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<v Speaker 4>the minister, which is fairly normal but increasing. There was

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<v Speaker 4>offshore detention, and there was this eternal problem of indefinite

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<v Speaker 4>detentionion and it's seen as a department that is not

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<v Speaker 4>something that people want to work for. There was also

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<v Speaker 4>an issue of the wilderness of the department and they

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<v Speaker 4>immediately did something about that and they sent the Australian

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<v Speaker 4>Federal Police back to the Attorney General's Department and then

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<v Speaker 4>later on established the Emergency Management Agency to deal with disasters.

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<v Speaker 4>So they sort of cut something back, added something else

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<v Speaker 4>on and there is still this eternal question about what

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<v Speaker 4>to do with this, and that's something that has not

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<v Speaker 4>been answered yet. And so Mike Pezzullo, the Hawkish well connected,

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<v Speaker 4>very determined bureaucrat in charge of Home Affairs. He ruled

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<v Speaker 4>Home Affairs with an iron fist. There's a story that

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<v Speaker 4>Abil Risby, a former Immigration Deputy secretary, tells about him.

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<v Speaker 4>He said that when soon after taking over the portfolio,

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<v Speaker 4>he said to staff, we're not care bears anymore. Now,

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<v Speaker 4>Puzzullo denies he said that, but Risby says he knows

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<v Speaker 4>people in the room. So anyway, that story still circulates.

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<v Speaker 4>Getting back to Puzzullo, he was there and they brought

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<v Speaker 4>on Clara O'Neil as the Home Affairs Minister, and Andrew Giles,

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<v Speaker 4>often seen as a lieutenant of Anthony Albanizi, he was

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<v Speaker 4>brought in as Immigration Minister, and Immigration is still not

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<v Speaker 4>a cabinet portfolio. He is the junior minister to Clara o'neion,

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<v Speaker 4>So they are the senior figures in this troubled department.

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<v Speaker 4>And it took a while for some of the controversies

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<v Speaker 4>to emerge under Labor, but they were there, bubbling under

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<v Speaker 4>the surface.

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<v Speaker 1>But of course he's no longer secretary.

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<v Speaker 4>What happened, no, well, it's quite a controversy. Look, there

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<v Speaker 4>were a few things that happened while Mike Bazillo was secretary.

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<v Speaker 7>Do you accept that you made dreadful errors of judgment

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<v Speaker 7>that brought your public service career to an end?

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<v Speaker 9>Yes, I made mistakes and I need to own those

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<v Speaker 9>mistakes and I need to learn from them.

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<v Speaker 4>And there was one that finally took the cake, and

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<v Speaker 4>that was the fact that some leaked inappropriate text messages,

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<v Speaker 4>the whole stream of them were leaked to the media

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<v Speaker 4>showing inappropriate relations with a liberal powerbroker and former state

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<v Speaker 4>director of the Liberal Party, Scott Briggs.

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<v Speaker 5>Mike Bazillo has been asked to stand aside while this

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<v Speaker 5>investigation takes place. This is one of the most powerful

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<v Speaker 5>positions in the public service.

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<v Speaker 4>He was talking about suggesting political promotions, which is not

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<v Speaker 4>seemly for a nonpartisan bureaucrat.

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<v Speaker 9>It's something that I regret. I made a mistake. I'm

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<v Speaker 9>moving on. I want to focus on making a positive

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<v Speaker 9>contribution to our national security, but in a very different way.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, Karen, it feels like Karli, a month goes by

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<v Speaker 2>without some kind of flare up politically that involves home affairs,

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<v Speaker 2>and again it's under a huge amount of scrutiny in

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<v Speaker 2>this current immigration debate.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you tell me what's been going on there.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, we're talking about the overturning of visa cancelations made

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<v Speaker 4>by the tribunal under directions from the minister. These are

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<v Speaker 4>a tribunal cases that can be to do with awful

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<v Speaker 4>cases such as sex offenders. There are other criminal matters.

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<v Speaker 4>These are what I'm told by Abil risby the former

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<v Speaker 4>Immigration Deputy Sectory. Often line will cases that we don't

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<v Speaker 4>know the full details too, but they get blown up

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<v Speaker 4>in the media. So there's huge pressure on the department.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, I'd say there's always pressure on the Home

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<v Speaker 4>Affairs Department and Immigration in particular, which also places pressure

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<v Speaker 4>on Stephanie Foster, who is the replacement for Mike Pizzulo.

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<v Speaker 4>She came up as an Associate Secretary in charge of Immigration.

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<v Speaker 4>She also came from the Department of Prime Minister and

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<v Speaker 4>Cabinet and she has a defense background. She's very capable.

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<v Speaker 4>She's had quite a large and interesting rise to be

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<v Speaker 4>in charge of the Home Affairs Department, but there are

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<v Speaker 4>pressures that she say had to do with resourcing that

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<v Speaker 4>she hasn't been able to overcome. After the break new

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<v Speaker 4>leader new vision House Home Affairs fearing under its new Boss, Karen,

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<v Speaker 4>we've been talking about the Home Affairs Department and what's

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<v Speaker 4>going on there.

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<v Speaker 2>After Mike Pizzulo was ousted. What's his replacement. Stephanie Foster

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<v Speaker 2>had to say about how the department's faring.

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<v Speaker 9>I now call officers from the Department of Home Affairs,

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<v Speaker 9>including Australian Border Force in relation to cross portfolio, corporate

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<v Speaker 9>and general matters.

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<v Speaker 1>Miss Foster welcome.

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<v Speaker 9>Would you like to make it.

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<v Speaker 4>Stephanie Foster has made the large admission that her department

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<v Speaker 4>has broke protocol by not informing the Minister of concerning cases.

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<v Speaker 8>In relation to the Direction ninety nine issue. That Minister

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<v Speaker 8>for Immigration Andrew Giles has essentially thrown the Department under

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<v Speaker 8>the bus in question time today and said it's your

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<v Speaker 8>fault that he wasn't advised of a number of these

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<v Speaker 8>cases being overturned by the AAT.

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<v Speaker 9>Is that right?

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<v Speaker 10>It's correct that he wasn't informed, Senator.

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<v Speaker 4>So here we have the Minister blaming the department for

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<v Speaker 4>not informing him of of concerning cases.

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<v Speaker 10>We did not adequately resource that function and it was

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<v Speaker 10>not being done in a timely way, and we had

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<v Speaker 10>not advised Minister Giles of that particular case, that.

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<v Speaker 8>Particular case, or there are a number of cases that

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<v Speaker 8>he was asked about today and that are.

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<v Speaker 10>In the media, a number of cases, Senator.

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<v Speaker 4>But this is an issue for resourcing for Stephanie Foster,

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<v Speaker 4>and she's trying to get to the bottom of it.

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<v Speaker 8>When did this become apparent.

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<v Speaker 10>I became aware of its Senator, just in the last

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<v Speaker 10>couple of days.

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<v Speaker 8>As a result of the media coverage about these cases.

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<v Speaker 10>Protect a correct Senator.

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<v Speaker 4>Now, I've spoken to insiders who say that it's quite

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<v Speaker 4>odd that this has taken place and that there should

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<v Speaker 4>be enough resourcing in this area because we're talking about

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<v Speaker 4>a particular area within immigration, which is to do with

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<v Speaker 4>visa compliance, which is always an area of controversy. It's

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<v Speaker 4>also to do with the legal area, which is also

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<v Speaker 4>always where resourced, so I'm told, but resourcing something has

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<v Speaker 4>not happened in an appropriate way for the Minister to

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<v Speaker 4>be fully across what has happened in his portfolio, particularly

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<v Speaker 4>to do with these concerning cases. The other interesting thing

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<v Speaker 4>about Stephanie Foster, she also popped up in estimates not

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<v Speaker 4>so long ago. She was seen as breaking protocol. I

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<v Speaker 4>guess for a nonpartisan bureaucrat she was seen winking during

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<v Speaker 4>an appearance in Estimates and that cause controversy at the time.

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<v Speaker 4>She is a very interesting character. She's also been widely

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<v Speaker 4>reported as driving around Canberra in a red Porsche.

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<v Speaker 2>Talk to me a little bit more about the relationship

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<v Speaker 2>between the Senior Minister Clara O'Neil and her secretary, Stephanie Foster.

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<v Speaker 4>It is an interesting one. You'd hear from Clara O'Neil

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<v Speaker 4>and Andrew Garles say that they have a very warm

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<v Speaker 4>and constructive relationship with Stephanie Foster. There is a bit

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<v Speaker 4>of a pubblick interest in the relationship because we have

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<v Speaker 4>had earlier this year the reporting that Stephanie Foster was

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<v Speaker 4>seen leaving the Ministerial wing of Parliament House in tears.

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<v Speaker 4>This wasn't denied by clar O'Neil at the time, but

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<v Speaker 4>again she stressed that there is a warm and constructive

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<v Speaker 4>relationship they do, she says, work well together. But we

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<v Speaker 4>have this admission here about resourcing that just keeps going on.

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<v Speaker 4>We keep hearing this issue about home affairs. It's so large.

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<v Speaker 4>The Labor Government has put more money into it, but

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<v Speaker 4>it's still not enough to deal with the large and

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<v Speaker 4>many pronged areas that Home Affairs has to deal with.

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<v Speaker 2>So we've got a cumbersome, somewhat dysfunctional mega department that's

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<v Speaker 2>responsible for some pretty life altering decisions there.

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<v Speaker 1>We ask how it's.

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<v Speaker 2>Impacting the people who actually have to interact with Home Affairs.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, look, it is every day still grind away on

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<v Speaker 4>the many areas that it has responsibility for. In the

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<v Speaker 4>immigration area, there is a visa backlog that is slowly

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<v Speaker 4>being whittled away. There are I'm told about eighteen thousand

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<v Speaker 4>litigation cases against the minister. That's a huge case load

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<v Speaker 4>for the legal area of Home Affairs. We recently had

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<v Speaker 4>a bit of a slice into an area of Home

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<v Speaker 4>Affairs and audit that the Audit Office did into migration

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<v Speaker 4>agents and the regulation of them by Home Affairs, and

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<v Speaker 4>that put that back in the spotlight. It pretty much

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<v Speaker 4>found there was no regulation of migration agents by Home Affairs.

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<v Speaker 4>This is a troubled area with dodgy operators and some

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<v Speaker 4>quite vulnerable people like transitional workers are most at risk

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<v Speaker 4>here and that was an area of concern and Home

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<v Speaker 4>Affairs says it's going to be responding to all of

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<v Speaker 4>those recommendations. But this is not just about immigration. This

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<v Speaker 4>is about law enforcement, this is about but domestic spye

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<v Speaker 4>with Asio, this is about citizenship, and it's about borders,

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<v Speaker 4>and it's about so much more. And there's big questions

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<v Speaker 4>about the future of Home affairs. I think there are

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<v Speaker 4>always questions about whether it should be broken up a

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<v Speaker 4>little bit more. But I think it will always be

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<v Speaker 4>an area of controversy, mainly because it is just so

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<v Speaker 4>politically charged. It is something that is always a hot

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<v Speaker 4>topic for the major parties and even some of the

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<v Speaker 4>minor parties like the Greens. It's something that we'll be

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<v Speaker 4>talking about for many years to come.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks so much for your time, Karen.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 11>Also in the news today, Bruce Lamman is scheduled to

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<v Speaker 11>appear for a committal hearing in a Toowomba Magistrate's court

0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:11.360
<v Speaker 11>today facing two counts of rape. Lahman has not been

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<v Speaker 11>required to enter a plea in the case, but it

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<v Speaker 11>is expected he will plead not guilty if the magistrate

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<v Speaker 11>rules that a trial will proceed, and Indian authorities are

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<v Speaker 11>likely to prosecute one of India's most famous living authors,

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<v Speaker 11>Aaron Dardi Roy, with anti terrorism and sedition charges because

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<v Speaker 11>she allegedly commented back in twenty ten that the disputed

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<v Speaker 11>territory of Kashmir should be independent from India. The charges

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<v Speaker 11>have been given the go ahead by a member of

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<v Speaker 11>Indian Prime Minister Narendromodi's ruling party, which has expanded terrorism

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<v Speaker 11>laws to silence critics. I'm Scott Mitchell. This is seven

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<v Speaker 11>a m. Thanks for listening. Ashlan McGee will be back

0:15:54.880 --> 0:16:01.400
<v Speaker 11>with you tomorrow one