WEBVTT - Pussy Riot’s Masha on Putin, democracy, and escaping Russia

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. In

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty two, Marsha Olia Kena escaped Russia disguised as

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<v Speaker 1>a food delivery courier. She had spent years being arrested, imprisoned,

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<v Speaker 1>and watched by the state for her work with punk

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<v Speaker 1>protest group Pussy Riot and for speaking out against Vladimir Putin.

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<v Speaker 1>But Olia Quina says the Russia she fled wasn't transformed

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<v Speaker 1>by one dramatic moment. Repression came peace by peace until fear, censorship,

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<v Speaker 1>and eventually silence became part of everyday life. Now, she says,

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<v Speaker 1>the same Patterman's taking hold elsewhere as people become overwhelmed,

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<v Speaker 1>disengaged from politics, and complacent that the freedoms they inherited

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<v Speaker 1>will simply endure today. Pussy Rites. Marsha Olia Keina on

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<v Speaker 1>what Putin's Russia can teach us about authoritarianism and why

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<v Speaker 1>democracy can never be taken for granted. It's Friday, August

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<v Speaker 1>twenty one. Marsha Hello and welcome to seven AM. You're

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<v Speaker 1>here in Australia right now, and it's been several years

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<v Speaker 1>since she left Russia to begin with, could you tell

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<v Speaker 1>us about why you left Russia.

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<v Speaker 2>I cross the border was Europe twenty eighth of April

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<v Speaker 2>of twenty twenty two. I never wanted to leave my country,

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<v Speaker 2>but I decided to do that because Puttin started a

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<v Speaker 2>full scale war against Ukraine, which is still going for

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<v Speaker 2>his year.

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<v Speaker 3>It was as sudden as it was brutal and relentless.

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<v Speaker 3>Ukrainians woke up to find themselves plunged into the midst

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<v Speaker 3>of all explosions and air raid sirens ringing out here

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<v Speaker 3>in Kiev and cities across this country as Russia launched

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<v Speaker 3>a full scale invasion on multiple fronts. In the early

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<v Speaker 3>hours of this morning.

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<v Speaker 2>I left Russia to help the country suffering from the

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<v Speaker 2>army of my country. I was under the second in

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<v Speaker 2>my life criminal case. I had an electronic monitoring bracelet

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<v Speaker 2>in my leg. I didn't have a passport because it

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<v Speaker 2>was confiscated during the police search. The criminal case was

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<v Speaker 2>opened because I wrote an Instagram post and support of

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<v Speaker 2>Alixai na Vali, Russian positional leader who was poisoned by

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<v Speaker 2>Russian secret services, be arrested in the airport, in prison,

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<v Speaker 2>tortured for three years and then killed.

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<v Speaker 4>The most prominent opposition leader in Russia, Alexey Navalni, has

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<v Speaker 4>died suddenly in prison.

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<v Speaker 1>According to the country's prison.

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<v Speaker 5>Service, post mortem test by Britain, France, Germany, Sweden and

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<v Speaker 5>the Netherlands conclusively found the presence of ibatterden, a deadly neurotoxin.

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<v Speaker 2>But then Novo didn't you that it will end like that,

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<v Speaker 2>So people decided to support him, even in the most

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<v Speaker 2>desperate for the protest time, and went to the streets.

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<v Speaker 2>That was the last big protest demonstration in Russia changed

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<v Speaker 2>returned to twenty one.

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<v Speaker 4>Navali's arrest and imprisonment has unleashed the greatest way of

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<v Speaker 4>an anti Putin sentiment in recent years. At least four

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<v Speaker 4>thousand people have now been detained rallies across the country.

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<v Speaker 2>So I was part of that, and because of this

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<v Speaker 2>I had this second criminal case. So when I had

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<v Speaker 2>to make a decision, the apartment where I was was

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<v Speaker 2>surrounded by political police, so I had to change my

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<v Speaker 2>clothes into uniform of deliveriar and used the back door

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<v Speaker 2>to the building. Then with the help of my friends

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<v Speaker 2>and my close people, I went to the car which

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<v Speaker 2>brought me to Belarus, the country which is a close

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<v Speaker 2>neighbor to Russia, and from there there were three attempts

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<v Speaker 2>to cross the border with European Union, and third one

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<v Speaker 2>I made.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, I think you're talk in the past about how

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<v Speaker 1>a country is not turned into a fascist state over

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<v Speaker 1>one day or even one event, that it's a slow, patient,

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<v Speaker 1>payful process of getting people used to living a certain way.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you tell me about some of the ways you

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<v Speaker 1>saw that happen in your own country.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think third and what happened was me my

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<v Speaker 2>two years prison term, because I was quite surprised push

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<v Speaker 2>right in first artist activists who were imprisoned for peaceful actions.

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<v Speaker 6>It was an active protest by three young women, but

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<v Speaker 6>a protest that set them against both church and state

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<v Speaker 6>in a system effectively controlled by one man, Vladimir put It.

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<v Speaker 6>The three members of the punk rock band Pussy Riot

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<v Speaker 6>well unsurprisingly found guilty of hooliganism by a Moscow court today.

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<v Speaker 2>But then Putting started to repress more and more people.

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<v Speaker 2>There are public showcases when they take people from these

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<v Speaker 2>are that circle, create a criminal case and then create

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<v Speaker 2>a huge media attention around this criminal case. An imprisoned

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<v Speaker 2>person for huge amount of years with a big propaganda coverage.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's scarce people from this or that community or circle,

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<v Speaker 2>and people start to censor themselves. Also repressive laws like

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<v Speaker 2>law about foreign agents or people who just have a

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<v Speaker 2>different views start to be named as foreign agents or

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<v Speaker 2>unwanted people or organizations. It's legal terms, it's not just

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<v Speaker 2>like unpleasant towards.

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<v Speaker 7>And if you do not.

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<v Speaker 2>Follow the rules of the law when you've been named

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<v Speaker 2>as foreign agent, you will be imprisoned. Also political lascinations

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<v Speaker 2>murder for example of Barries himself, who was the loudest

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<v Speaker 2>voice against the war and against Russian invasion to Ukraine

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<v Speaker 2>in twenty fourteen, banning first mass demonstrations, then banning single demonstrations,

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<v Speaker 2>then ban even any sign of demonstration wherever online or offline,

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<v Speaker 2>and punishing people with big prison terms for that.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of our pittance paralyes on convincing people that

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<v Speaker 1>resistance is impossible. When Pussy Riot first began, what were

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<v Speaker 1>you trying to awaken in other Russians? How do you

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<v Speaker 1>break that belief that change will never come?

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<v Speaker 2>When Put to the Right started, there was a large

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<v Speaker 2>protest movement across Russia, so only in most good there

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<v Speaker 2>were one hundred thousand people on streets shouting we are

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<v Speaker 2>the power.

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<v Speaker 3>It's being called Russia's political awakening, and it's happening on

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<v Speaker 3>a massive scale.

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<v Speaker 1>For the first time in years. People are out inforced

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<v Speaker 1>to challenge the country's leaders.

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<v Speaker 2>And I mean first action of Push Right, which I

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<v Speaker 2>participated in the square, the Central Square in Moscow loised

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<v Speaker 2>the song pushing piece his pants and that was like

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<v Speaker 2>an ironical comment to every reality when Pushing was completely

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<v Speaker 2>lost and didn't understand what to do because of so

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<v Speaker 2>called elections, upcoming collections happening in several months, and people

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<v Speaker 2>here and there are protesting against him, which didn't happen before.

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<v Speaker 2>So pushr I started as a part of this protest.

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<v Speaker 2>And then again we've been in prison for two years,

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<v Speaker 2>but putting was basically raping our country for many years.

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<v Speaker 2>People start to leave the country, people start to be afraid.

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<v Speaker 2>Many people are not alive anymore because of the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that they.

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<v Speaker 7>Put their lives to this protest.

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<v Speaker 2>And I mean I personally tried to just save my

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<v Speaker 2>no to this dictatorship as a person as Push Right

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<v Speaker 2>members activist.

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<v Speaker 1>Are you saying that type of creep into kryptocracy in

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<v Speaker 1>other places around the world, for America for instance.

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<v Speaker 2>Ah, Yes, Trumps copy pasts in Putting's methods a lot,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think he is not hiding that this so

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<v Speaker 2>called idea of strong leader man is somehow became very attractive.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up. How the rise of Putin serves as a

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<v Speaker 1>warning for democracies everywhere. Marsha, the war against Ukraine has

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<v Speaker 1>now been going for more than four years. Tell me

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<v Speaker 1>about the impact that you're seeing and hearing that it's

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<v Speaker 1>having in Russia. Is it making people in Russia angry

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<v Speaker 1>at Putin? Or is it making people in Russia angry

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<v Speaker 1>at Ukraine.

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<v Speaker 2>Russian people are living under the military censorship. They're not

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<v Speaker 2>able to express any opinion. For showing Ukrainian flag, can

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<v Speaker 2>get eight years of prison. For calling the ward the war,

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<v Speaker 2>you can get the same amount of years in prison,

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<v Speaker 2>and people are constantly murdered inside prison.

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<v Speaker 7>Even like in this situation.

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<v Speaker 2>There are several thousand people who are behind bars, including

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<v Speaker 2>on life terms, because of protesting against this war. Because

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<v Speaker 2>of this situation, people simply afraid to express anyhow their opinion.

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<v Speaker 2>This is quite naive to think that in these conditions,

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<v Speaker 2>after two decades of repressions and pudding dictatorship, Russian people

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<v Speaker 2>will just out of nowhere, somehow get the weapons and

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<v Speaker 2>make a revolution inside the country. There are idle politicians

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<v Speaker 2>and political parties in the West for collaborate with current

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<v Speaker 2>Putin's regime for many years and feeding this regime and

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<v Speaker 2>helping this regime to stay in power and kill Ukrainians.

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<v Speaker 7>So from what I know.

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<v Speaker 2>And from people who might know and who are still

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<v Speaker 2>in the country, yes, people are against this war, but

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<v Speaker 2>they are silent because they don't want to die. And

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<v Speaker 2>if the question is like, do they associate this war

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<v Speaker 2>with current regime or they believe a propaganda? What propaganda

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<v Speaker 2>is saying that there are only Nazis in Ukraine? And

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<v Speaker 2>this is like in the Second World War when brave

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<v Speaker 2>Russian armies fighting Nazis. No, people are not tedious, but

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<v Speaker 2>people do have fear, like everywhere.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think that this kleptocracy in Russia will end

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<v Speaker 1>when Putin goes or does or are the conditions still

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<v Speaker 1>got to remain in Russia for this sort of a

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<v Speaker 1>depression to continue on beyond him.

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<v Speaker 2>It's personal dictatorship, so he runs this machine. So if

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<v Speaker 2>somebody helped both to kind of basically arrest shot him

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<v Speaker 2>from the West, definitely little help, but putting the product

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<v Speaker 2>of a machine of repressions, Russia being created as Russia

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<v Speaker 2>just thirty years ago. Before it was a century of

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<v Speaker 2>Soviet Union, the triitarian regime, which was not reflected because

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<v Speaker 2>there was no time for freedom of speech and freedom

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<v Speaker 2>of expression to reflect about what happened during basically the

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<v Speaker 2>whole twenty century, there were more than five million people

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<v Speaker 2>killed assan to prison camps for nothing, not only like

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<v Speaker 2>for expressing it being for basically that thing. And before

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<v Speaker 2>that there was like many centuries of monarch here. So

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<v Speaker 2>this is quite heavy legacy and he's a product of

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<v Speaker 2>the system.

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<v Speaker 1>Marcia, you said that everything is political, or even doing

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<v Speaker 1>nothing choosing to do was say nothing is political, and

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<v Speaker 1>that there's a choice to be indifferent or apathetic, and

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<v Speaker 1>it means that you're essentially voting for the status quo.

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<v Speaker 1>I concern that there's a growing apathy across the world

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<v Speaker 1>that is allowing authoritarianism to take hold, both in the

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<v Speaker 1>East and in the West.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you're very right about in difference, growing difference, and

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<v Speaker 2>there is reason why people have limits of suffer, let's.

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<v Speaker 7>Say, an empathy.

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<v Speaker 2>So with current news of cateacter of wars, political rates

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<v Speaker 2>like torture. People look quite overwhelmed and they do not

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<v Speaker 2>believe that they can change anything. Another thing which is

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<v Speaker 2>much deeper, in my opinion, many people in the West

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<v Speaker 2>just used to live under democracy and somehow subconsciously they

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<v Speaker 2>think that this is something basic, this is something which

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<v Speaker 2>exists by default, and.

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<v Speaker 7>Things will stay like they are.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's basically not true, because things which have been

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<v Speaker 2>achieved by previous generations being achieved with the fight, and

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<v Speaker 2>many people died for these values and for these freedoms

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<v Speaker 2>which their grandchildren like people now in.

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<v Speaker 7>The West have.

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<v Speaker 2>If people forget that and just chill and comfortable, wealthy

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<v Speaker 2>kind of conditions, like they don't care and they don't

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<v Speaker 2>think that it's necessary to fight forward, you believe.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Marsha, thank you for speaking with us on seven am.

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<v Speaker 1>It's been another thank you you too. Masha Ali Aquina

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<v Speaker 1>is the author of Riot Days and Political Girl Life

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<v Speaker 1>and Faith in Russia and he's currently in Australia for

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<v Speaker 1>the Festival of Dangerous Ideas. She will appear at Killing

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<v Speaker 1>Culture at Carriage Works in Sydney this Saturday and in

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<v Speaker 1>Pussy Riot's Political Girl at Carriage Works this Sunday. Also

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<v Speaker 1>in the Yews. Israel's ambassador to Australia has accused Australia

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<v Speaker 1>of harboring a lot of haters of Israel after the

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<v Speaker 1>federal government condemned Israel's handling of the investigation into the

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<v Speaker 1>killing of Australian aid worker Zombie Francom. Foreign Minister Penny

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<v Speaker 1>Wong summoned the ambassador after Israel decided not to pursue

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<v Speaker 1>criminal charges over the twenty twenty four strikes that killed

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<v Speaker 1>Frankom and six other World Central Kitchen workers traveling in

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<v Speaker 1>a humanitarian convoy through Gaza. Australia says serious questions remain

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<v Speaker 1>over the three strikes and Israel's refusal to provide key evidence,

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<v Speaker 1>with Wong saying the government will consult Franklin's family before

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<v Speaker 1>announcing further steps. And former South Australian Chief Justice Chris

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<v Speaker 1>Corracas has been appointed to leave Victoria's Row Commission into

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<v Speaker 1>Corruption and Serious Misconduct on major government construction projects. The

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<v Speaker 1>inquiry will examine alleged organized crime infiltration and whether governments,

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<v Speaker 1>contractors and agencies failed in their oversight, with former Premiers

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<v Speaker 1>Daniel Andrews and Dissenter Allen among those expected to be

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<v Speaker 1>called Victorian Premier Ben Carroll says nothing is off limits,

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<v Speaker 1>with the commission due to report by August next year.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James. Thanks for listening to seven AM. We'll

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<v Speaker 1>be back tomorrow