Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. In
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, Marsha Olia Kena escaped Russia disguised as
Speaker 1: a food delivery courier. She had spent years being arrested, imprisoned,
Speaker 1: and watched by the state for her work with punk
Speaker 1: protest group Pussy Riot and for speaking out against Vladimir Putin.
Speaker 1: But Olia Quina says the Russia she fled wasn't transformed
Speaker 1: by one dramatic moment. Repression came peace by peace until fear, censorship,
Speaker 1: and eventually silence became part of everyday life. Now, she says,
Speaker 1: the same Patterman's taking hold elsewhere as people become overwhelmed,
Speaker 1: disengaged from politics, and complacent that the freedoms they inherited
Speaker 1: will simply endure today. Pussy Rites. Marsha Olia Keina on
Speaker 1: what Putin's Russia can teach us about authoritarianism and why
Speaker 1: democracy can never be taken for granted. It's Friday, August
Speaker 1: twenty one. Marsha Hello and welcome to seven AM. You're
Speaker 1: here in Australia right now, and it's been several years
Speaker 1: since she left Russia to begin with, could you tell
Speaker 1: us about why you left Russia.
Speaker 2: I cross the border was Europe twenty eighth of April
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty two. I never wanted to leave my country,
Speaker 2: but I decided to do that because Puttin started a
Speaker 2: full scale war against Ukraine, which is still going for
Speaker 2: his year.
Speaker 3: It was as sudden as it was brutal and relentless.
Speaker 3: Ukrainians woke up to find themselves plunged into the midst
Speaker 3: of all explosions and air raid sirens ringing out here
Speaker 3: in Kiev and cities across this country as Russia launched
Speaker 3: a full scale invasion on multiple fronts. In the early
Speaker 3: hours of this morning.
Speaker 2: I left Russia to help the country suffering from the
Speaker 2: army of my country. I was under the second in
Speaker 2: my life criminal case. I had an electronic monitoring bracelet
Speaker 2: in my leg. I didn't have a passport because it
Speaker 2: was confiscated during the police search. The criminal case was
Speaker 2: opened because I wrote an Instagram post and support of
Speaker 2: Alixai na Vali, Russian positional leader who was poisoned by
Speaker 2: Russian secret services, be arrested in the airport, in prison,
Speaker 2: tortured for three years and then killed.
Speaker 4: The most prominent opposition leader in Russia, Alexey Navalni, has
Speaker 4: died suddenly in prison.
Speaker 1: According to the country's prison.
Speaker 5: Service, post mortem test by Britain, France, Germany, Sweden and
Speaker 5: the Netherlands conclusively found the presence of ibatterden, a deadly neurotoxin.
Speaker 2: But then Novo didn't you that it will end like that,
Speaker 2: So people decided to support him, even in the most
Speaker 2: desperate for the protest time, and went to the streets.
Speaker 2: That was the last big protest demonstration in Russia changed
Speaker 2: returned to twenty one.
Speaker 4: Navali's arrest and imprisonment has unleashed the greatest way of
Speaker 4: an anti Putin sentiment in recent years. At least four
Speaker 4: thousand people have now been detained rallies across the country.
Speaker 2: So I was part of that, and because of this
Speaker 2: I had this second criminal case. So when I had
Speaker 2: to make a decision, the apartment where I was was
Speaker 2: surrounded by political police, so I had to change my
Speaker 2: clothes into uniform of deliveriar and used the back door
Speaker 2: to the building. Then with the help of my friends
Speaker 2: and my close people, I went to the car which
Speaker 2: brought me to Belarus, the country which is a close
Speaker 2: neighbor to Russia, and from there there were three attempts
Speaker 2: to cross the border with European Union, and third one
Speaker 2: I made.
Speaker 1: Now, I think you're talk in the past about how
Speaker 1: a country is not turned into a fascist state over
Speaker 1: one day or even one event, that it's a slow, patient,
Speaker 1: payful process of getting people used to living a certain way.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me about some of the ways you
Speaker 1: saw that happen in your own country.
Speaker 2: Well, I think third and what happened was me my
Speaker 2: two years prison term, because I was quite surprised push
Speaker 2: right in first artist activists who were imprisoned for peaceful actions.
Speaker 6: It was an active protest by three young women, but
Speaker 6: a protest that set them against both church and state
Speaker 6: in a system effectively controlled by one man, Vladimir put It.
Speaker 6: The three members of the punk rock band Pussy Riot
Speaker 6: well unsurprisingly found guilty of hooliganism by a Moscow court today.
Speaker 2: But then Putting started to repress more and more people.
Speaker 2: There are public showcases when they take people from these
Speaker 2: are that circle, create a criminal case and then create
Speaker 2: a huge media attention around this criminal case. An imprisoned
Speaker 2: person for huge amount of years with a big propaganda coverage.
Speaker 2: So it's scarce people from this or that community or circle,
Speaker 2: and people start to censor themselves. Also repressive laws like
Speaker 2: law about foreign agents or people who just have a
Speaker 2: different views start to be named as foreign agents or
Speaker 2: unwanted people or organizations. It's legal terms, it's not just
Speaker 2: like unpleasant towards.
Speaker 7: And if you do not.
Speaker 2: Follow the rules of the law when you've been named
Speaker 2: as foreign agent, you will be imprisoned. Also political lascinations
Speaker 2: murder for example of Barries himself, who was the loudest
Speaker 2: voice against the war and against Russian invasion to Ukraine
Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen, banning first mass demonstrations, then banning single demonstrations,
Speaker 2: then ban even any sign of demonstration wherever online or offline,
Speaker 2: and punishing people with big prison terms for that.
Speaker 1: A lot of our pittance paralyes on convincing people that
Speaker 1: resistance is impossible. When Pussy Riot first began, what were
Speaker 1: you trying to awaken in other Russians? How do you
Speaker 1: break that belief that change will never come?
Speaker 2: When Put to the Right started, there was a large
Speaker 2: protest movement across Russia, so only in most good there
Speaker 2: were one hundred thousand people on streets shouting we are
Speaker 2: the power.
Speaker 3: It's being called Russia's political awakening, and it's happening on
Speaker 3: a massive scale.
Speaker 1: For the first time in years. People are out inforced
Speaker 1: to challenge the country's leaders.
Speaker 2: And I mean first action of Push Right, which I
Speaker 2: participated in the square, the Central Square in Moscow loised
Speaker 2: the song pushing piece his pants and that was like
Speaker 2: an ironical comment to every reality when Pushing was completely
Speaker 2: lost and didn't understand what to do because of so
Speaker 2: called elections, upcoming collections happening in several months, and people
Speaker 2: here and there are protesting against him, which didn't happen before.
Speaker 2: So pushr I started as a part of this protest.
Speaker 2: And then again we've been in prison for two years,
Speaker 2: but putting was basically raping our country for many years.
Speaker 2: People start to leave the country, people start to be afraid.
Speaker 2: Many people are not alive anymore because of the fact
Speaker 2: that they.
Speaker 7: Put their lives to this protest.
Speaker 2: And I mean I personally tried to just save my
Speaker 2: no to this dictatorship as a person as Push Right
Speaker 2: members activist.
Speaker 1: Are you saying that type of creep into kryptocracy in
Speaker 1: other places around the world, for America for instance.
Speaker 2: Ah, Yes, Trumps copy pasts in Putting's methods a lot,
Speaker 2: and I think he is not hiding that this so
Speaker 2: called idea of strong leader man is somehow became very attractive.
Speaker 1: Coming up. How the rise of Putin serves as a
Speaker 1: warning for democracies everywhere. Marsha, the war against Ukraine has
Speaker 1: now been going for more than four years. Tell me
Speaker 1: about the impact that you're seeing and hearing that it's
Speaker 1: having in Russia. Is it making people in Russia angry
Speaker 1: at Putin? Or is it making people in Russia angry
Speaker 1: at Ukraine.
Speaker 2: Russian people are living under the military censorship. They're not
Speaker 2: able to express any opinion. For showing Ukrainian flag, can
Speaker 2: get eight years of prison. For calling the ward the war,
Speaker 2: you can get the same amount of years in prison,
Speaker 2: and people are constantly murdered inside prison.
Speaker 7: Even like in this situation.
Speaker 2: There are several thousand people who are behind bars, including
Speaker 2: on life terms, because of protesting against this war. Because
Speaker 2: of this situation, people simply afraid to express anyhow their opinion.
Speaker 2: This is quite naive to think that in these conditions,
Speaker 2: after two decades of repressions and pudding dictatorship, Russian people
Speaker 2: will just out of nowhere, somehow get the weapons and
Speaker 2: make a revolution inside the country. There are idle politicians
Speaker 2: and political parties in the West for collaborate with current
Speaker 2: Putin's regime for many years and feeding this regime and
Speaker 2: helping this regime to stay in power and kill Ukrainians.
Speaker 7: So from what I know.
Speaker 2: And from people who might know and who are still
Speaker 2: in the country, yes, people are against this war, but
Speaker 2: they are silent because they don't want to die. And
Speaker 2: if the question is like, do they associate this war
Speaker 2: with current regime or they believe a propaganda? What propaganda
Speaker 2: is saying that there are only Nazis in Ukraine? And
Speaker 2: this is like in the Second World War when brave
Speaker 2: Russian armies fighting Nazis. No, people are not tedious, but
Speaker 2: people do have fear, like everywhere.
Speaker 1: Do you think that this kleptocracy in Russia will end
Speaker 1: when Putin goes or does or are the conditions still
Speaker 1: got to remain in Russia for this sort of a
Speaker 1: depression to continue on beyond him.
Speaker 2: It's personal dictatorship, so he runs this machine. So if
Speaker 2: somebody helped both to kind of basically arrest shot him
Speaker 2: from the West, definitely little help, but putting the product
Speaker 2: of a machine of repressions, Russia being created as Russia
Speaker 2: just thirty years ago. Before it was a century of
Speaker 2: Soviet Union, the triitarian regime, which was not reflected because
Speaker 2: there was no time for freedom of speech and freedom
Speaker 2: of expression to reflect about what happened during basically the
Speaker 2: whole twenty century, there were more than five million people
Speaker 2: killed assan to prison camps for nothing, not only like
Speaker 2: for expressing it being for basically that thing. And before
Speaker 2: that there was like many centuries of monarch here. So
Speaker 2: this is quite heavy legacy and he's a product of
Speaker 2: the system.
Speaker 1: Marcia, you said that everything is political, or even doing
Speaker 1: nothing choosing to do was say nothing is political, and
Speaker 1: that there's a choice to be indifferent or apathetic, and
Speaker 1: it means that you're essentially voting for the status quo.
Speaker 1: I concern that there's a growing apathy across the world
Speaker 1: that is allowing authoritarianism to take hold, both in the
Speaker 1: East and in the West.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're very right about in difference, growing difference, and
Speaker 2: there is reason why people have limits of suffer, let's.
Speaker 7: Say, an empathy.
Speaker 2: So with current news of cateacter of wars, political rates
Speaker 2: like torture. People look quite overwhelmed and they do not
Speaker 2: believe that they can change anything. Another thing which is
Speaker 2: much deeper, in my opinion, many people in the West
Speaker 2: just used to live under democracy and somehow subconsciously they
Speaker 2: think that this is something basic, this is something which
Speaker 2: exists by default, and.
Speaker 7: Things will stay like they are.
Speaker 2: But it's basically not true, because things which have been
Speaker 2: achieved by previous generations being achieved with the fight, and
Speaker 2: many people died for these values and for these freedoms
Speaker 2: which their grandchildren like people now in.
Speaker 7: The West have.
Speaker 2: If people forget that and just chill and comfortable, wealthy
Speaker 2: kind of conditions, like they don't care and they don't
Speaker 2: think that it's necessary to fight forward, you believe.
Speaker 1: Well, Marsha, thank you for speaking with us on seven am.
Speaker 1: It's been another thank you you too. Masha Ali Aquina
Speaker 1: is the author of Riot Days and Political Girl Life
Speaker 1: and Faith in Russia and he's currently in Australia for
Speaker 1: the Festival of Dangerous Ideas. She will appear at Killing
Speaker 1: Culture at Carriage Works in Sydney this Saturday and in
Speaker 1: Pussy Riot's Political Girl at Carriage Works this Sunday. Also
Speaker 1: in the Yews. Israel's ambassador to Australia has accused Australia
Speaker 1: of harboring a lot of haters of Israel after the
Speaker 1: federal government condemned Israel's handling of the investigation into the
Speaker 1: killing of Australian aid worker Zombie Francom. Foreign Minister Penny
Speaker 1: Wong summoned the ambassador after Israel decided not to pursue
Speaker 1: criminal charges over the twenty twenty four strikes that killed
Speaker 1: Frankom and six other World Central Kitchen workers traveling in
Speaker 1: a humanitarian convoy through Gaza. Australia says serious questions remain
Speaker 1: over the three strikes and Israel's refusal to provide key evidence,
Speaker 1: with Wong saying the government will consult Franklin's family before
Speaker 1: announcing further steps. And former South Australian Chief Justice Chris
Speaker 1: Corracas has been appointed to leave Victoria's Row Commission into
Speaker 1: Corruption and Serious Misconduct on major government construction projects. The
Speaker 1: inquiry will examine alleged organized crime infiltration and whether governments,
Speaker 1: contractors and agencies failed in their oversight, with former Premiers
Speaker 1: Daniel Andrews and Dissenter Allen among those expected to be
Speaker 1: called Victorian Premier Ben Carroll says nothing is off limits,
Speaker 1: with the commission due to report by August next year.
Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James. Thanks for listening to seven AM. We'll
Speaker 1: be back tomorrow