Speaker 1: If you have particularly traumatic experiences, intense experiences around violence,
Speaker 1: you know, emergency situations, being trapped, terror situations, like stressful situations,
Speaker 1: to sit with those feelings in theory, you're sitting there
Speaker 1: and you're creating space for them, and it's a lovely
Speaker 1: experience and you're very calm, but often your body doesn't
Speaker 1: know that that's a very calming, safe experience. To sit
Speaker 1: there and to deliberately look at it can retraumatize people.
Speaker 2: Everyone.
Speaker 3: Before we get into this week's podcast, we got a
Speaker 3: pretty cool announcement to Mike.
Speaker 4: You are and I able to connect with us. We
Speaker 4: have a pretty cool little widget that's on the website.
Speaker 4: Just go to polteilor dot beiz Forwards Life podcast and
Speaker 4: near the top of the piers, you'll see a little
Speaker 4: icon that says send a message to the Poul Taylor podcast.
Speaker 3: And so what we can do with that you just
Speaker 3: click on that and then you send us an audio
Speaker 3: message and we will get the audio message.
Speaker 5: Now, the first thing I want to do with.
Speaker 3: Using it is actually do and ask me anything episode.
Speaker 3: So all you got to do if you got a
Speaker 3: question that we want me to cover is just go
Speaker 3: to Paul Taylor dot b is z Forward Slash Podcast
Speaker 3: and on start the recording, and then send us a
Speaker 3: message about what you would like me to talk about
Speaker 3: and they ask me anything and leave your name. We
Speaker 3: will call it out on the show. I'll get that
Speaker 3: all put together. And the other thing you can do
Speaker 3: is just leave us a message about what you like
Speaker 3: about the podcast, what you don't like about the podcast
Speaker 3: day I talk too much, all of that sort of stuff,
Speaker 3: and just give us some feedback and we will use
Speaker 3: that to continuously improve. So looking forward to hearing from
Speaker 3: you now I hover the podcast.
Speaker 5: Megan Flamer, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 6: Lovely to be here.
Speaker 7: Now.
Speaker 2: You have a pretty eclectic background, I think we should
Speaker 2: say so you kind of a journalist by tread and
Speaker 2: broadcasting and a bit of a jazz singer as well,
Speaker 2: I know in.
Speaker 6: The shower now a little bit.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, So talk us through that background before we
Speaker 2: get into what you're doing. Ni.
Speaker 6: Yes, so yeah, I was.
Speaker 1: I started broadcasting at the West Australia Academy of Performing
Speaker 1: Arts and then started working with the ABC when I
Speaker 1: was reasonably young. So spent sort of ten fifteen years
Speaker 1: working in and around the ABC and working you know.
Speaker 1: As an emergency services broadcaster, I covered a lot of
Speaker 1: bushfires and international emergencies, and I was one of the
Speaker 1: journalists who covered the Black Saturday bushfires Wow Yeah, And.
Speaker 6: I was working for local radio.
Speaker 1: I'd also been working for a program called The Country Hour,
Speaker 1: so Digioneral and Rural Australia, and was quite involved with
Speaker 1: those communities that were affected and also quite traumatized.
Speaker 6: By the experience of it.
Speaker 1: And I was already what I like to call hippie
Speaker 1: adjacent when that happened.
Speaker 8: I'd done my yoga, Yes, I've done my yoga teacher training,
Speaker 8: I was doing, you know, my mindfulness teacher training and
Speaker 8: was really interested in that area.
Speaker 1: And then realize when it kind of came down to it,
Speaker 1: not that you can't sort of take yourself off in
Speaker 1: an emergency situation or a fire situation to take a
Speaker 1: quite few moments, but in the case of PTSD, you know,
Speaker 1: mindfulness meditation can often be contraindicated as well.
Speaker 6: So I found that the things that I've.
Speaker 1: Been using to support my stress relief and stress management
Speaker 1: suddenly didn't work for me. And so I got really
Speaker 1: obsessed with what actually works for people when they've had
Speaker 1: traumatic pasts or you know, are in current really difficult situations,
Speaker 1: and became really obsessed by that question and then have
Speaker 1: spent the last fifteen years of exploring that, like working
Speaker 1: with people who are in really stressful environments, have really
Speaker 1: intense or stressful jobs in Asia, in the US, and
Speaker 1: then back here in Australia. I moved back here in
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen after a decade overseas.
Speaker 5: And you spent by the time in Silicon Valley, didn't you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So I was based out of San Francisco,
Speaker 1: so I guess I went via Asia. So after So
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine was the Bush Buyers, and then
Speaker 1: that same year I moved up to Bangkok and I
Speaker 1: was working for a journalist up there and started a
Speaker 1: company there where I was, you know, kind of exploring
Speaker 1: these things, you know, looking at mindfulness and how to
Speaker 1: de stress people as well as as one can. I
Speaker 1: think with retreats, what I was hoping is people would
Speaker 1: come and have these transformative experiences and then they go
Speaker 1: back to their lives all transformed. And I realized very
Speaker 1: quickly you go and you have the transformative experience, and
Speaker 1: then you go back to life as it is like
Speaker 1: there's still life.
Speaker 6: And bills and all the city things.
Speaker 1: So I spent a lot of time over the next
Speaker 1: five years traveling around the world and teaching these retreats,
Speaker 1: but noticing more and more again that people are not
Speaker 1: really connecting with the practices of well being in their
Speaker 1: normal lives. They're not figuring out how they can apply
Speaker 1: those in everyday life. It's more we're taking a week
Speaker 1: out and we're escaping and going somewhere beautiful and sunny
Speaker 1: in the jungle, and then you kind of go back
Speaker 1: to business as usual. And so part of me moving
Speaker 1: to San Francisco was people starting to talk to me
Speaker 1: more about like, what would this look like in an organization?
Speaker 1: How do we start making those shifts? And I got
Speaker 1: really lucky. When I first moved to San Francisco, I
Speaker 1: was working with a company that does game design, and
Speaker 1: I met a few people who were working at Google
Speaker 1: and they were looking for someone to come and give
Speaker 1: a talk about, you know, kind of journalists to have
Speaker 1: to look at traumatic images, and a lot of these
Speaker 1: lawyers that they had at Google were looking at traumatic
Speaker 1: images as they were teaching algorithms. Is this kind of
Speaker 1: early day, It's like twenty fourteen, and so these lawyers
Speaker 1: are kind of, you know, looking at this information and
Speaker 1: they're quite disturbed by it. And so I gave a
Speaker 1: talk there and then they became one of my first clients,
Speaker 1: which was really great.
Speaker 5: It's a pretty good first client.
Speaker 6: It was a pretty good first client.
Speaker 1: I got very lucky and it was completely I mean
Speaker 1: I often complained about this fin Australia, like I noticed
Speaker 1: in the US. You beat a party, or you'd be
Speaker 1: just at a cafe or something and you talk to
Speaker 1: someone about something and they'd say, I know someone that
Speaker 1: we could connect you with, or I reckon.
Speaker 6: You should talk to this guy.
Speaker 1: It's like this very very very generous networking kind of culture.
Speaker 1: Not it never felt fake or transactional to me in
Speaker 1: that way. It just felt enormously helpful, especially as some
Speaker 1: you know, yoga teacher journal who rocked up there as
Speaker 1: an organizational designer, you know, not really knowing one hundred
Speaker 1: percent what I was doing. So I got really lucky
Speaker 1: with the people that I got to meet and then
Speaker 1: started doing that. I actually started a company over in
Speaker 1: the States that was Mindful under Fire and then was
Speaker 1: based there until yeah, twenty eighteen to nearly five years
Speaker 1: doing that kind.
Speaker 2: Of work, So tell me why does the traditional So
Speaker 2: you said that the traditional sort of mindful the stuff
Speaker 2: when you've been through really hard experiences, is suboptimal or
Speaker 2: often doesn't work.
Speaker 5: Why is that?
Speaker 1: And I'm not a I'm a mental health first data
Speaker 1: but I'm not a mental health professional, so I'm always
Speaker 1: careful of what I recommended say there. But in my
Speaker 1: personal experience and certainly with groups that I've worked with
Speaker 1: who specialize in PTSD, you know, if you think about
Speaker 1: what it is to be in a meditation or a
Speaker 1: mindfulness experience is focusing on and paying attention to what's
Speaker 1: happening in your mind, what's happening in your body, sitting
Speaker 1: with and noticing what's going on as you're sitting there.
Speaker 6: If you have.
Speaker 1: Particularly traumatic experiences, you know, intense experiences around violence, you know,
Speaker 1: emergency situations, being trapped, terror situations, like any of those things.
Speaker 1: I've worked a lot with people from prisons, for example,
Speaker 1: like really intense lockdown, stressful situations where you're, you know,
Speaker 1: in something where you are in physical danger. To sit
Speaker 1: with those feelings in theory, you're sitting there and you're
Speaker 1: creating space for them and it's a lovely experience and
Speaker 1: you're very calm, but often your body doesn't know that
Speaker 1: that's a very calming, safe experience. To sit there and
Speaker 1: to deliberately look at it can retraumatize people. For me personally,
Speaker 1: thinking about being in a bush by a situation, sitting
Speaker 1: there and you know, ad what it felt like to
Speaker 1: be in that space, you know, imagining the smells and
Speaker 1: being with that. I'm now able to do that. But
Speaker 1: this is like you know, wade later.
Speaker 2: Yeah, with the benefit of all of that distance and
Speaker 2: the emotional intensity reducing.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I can see how hi in and of
Speaker 2: the moment, revisiting that and trying to set with it
Speaker 2: can be contra productive for quite a.
Speaker 1: Lot of people, Yes, especially early on. And I'd already
Speaker 1: been someone who would meditate and been into all this
Speaker 1: stuff for over a decade when I came to it,
Speaker 1: you know that when those situations happened, So it wasn't
Speaker 1: that I wasn't already an experienced meditator, but I started
Speaker 1: to learn different ways of dealing with it. I mean,
Speaker 1: I did some interesting, different alternative therapies and that helped
Speaker 1: a lot for me. The physicality of things helped. So
Speaker 1: it's like shaking and.
Speaker 5: Moving your body.
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, like tapping.
Speaker 1: Tapping was one of those things that at the beginning
Speaker 1: I hated and I was like, this is that's stupid,
Speaker 1: Please don't make me do this.
Speaker 6: That was actually really.
Speaker 1: Helpful physical anchors, breath work. I mean, I was already
Speaker 1: a yoga teacher, so a lot of that, like noticing
Speaker 1: things arise and moving through them. So I got pretty experimental.
Speaker 1: I mean I treated myself as my own giddepig and
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time working with that. And now
Speaker 1: you know, there will be times when I will deliberately
Speaker 1: put myself back into thinking about situations that have been
Speaker 1: traumatizing or upsetting, and I'll spend some time.
Speaker 2: Tell me this, did you ever do when you were
Speaker 2: experimenting with those different therapies? She talked about tapping, which
Speaker 2: I'm familiar with. Do you ever do emdr?
Speaker 6: Yes?
Speaker 5: Yeah, so, because that's really interesting.
Speaker 2: There's actually a bucket lord of research around it and
Speaker 2: nine mechanisms understood mechanisms.
Speaker 5: By how it works.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, So that was one of the early things
Speaker 1: that I tried, even before I left Australia, and at
Speaker 1: the time hated it, like really was like again, it
Speaker 1: felt a bit like the tapping.
Speaker 6: It's like, what is this?
Speaker 1: And I think I was impatient. I was really highly
Speaker 1: strung about all of it as well. It's just like
Speaker 1: I just need to find something that works. One of
Speaker 1: the things that I did, I guess somewhat illegally. I
Speaker 1: worked with a psychotherapist from the Netherlands who was in
Speaker 1: Thailand and he did the MDR using MDMA as well.
Speaker 2: So you're an early proponent of the because there's there's
Speaker 2: actually a barke at Lord of research around that. And
Speaker 2: I interviewed a guy a few weeks ago, Paul with
Speaker 2: an unpronouncable sonium and who is the lead researcher in
Speaker 2: psychedelic assistant therapy in Australia. I think he's connected to
Speaker 2: is It Monster and I can't quite remember which one
Speaker 2: he's connected to.
Speaker 1: Paul at NISKI. Yes, he's amazing, He's at Monit Yes.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, he's incredible. I I did a talk with him,
Speaker 2: we were both doing a talk at the YPO, the
Speaker 2: Young President's organization.
Speaker 5: His stuff was absolutely mind blowing.
Speaker 2: I got really quite My interest was piqued in this
Speaker 2: twenty odd years ago when I was in the Amazon
Speaker 2: jungle with a shaman taking ayahuasca, going on an aahuasca journey,
Speaker 2: and mine was exploration. But there were a couple of
Speaker 2: people there, one who was a heroin addict and one
Speaker 2: who was an alcoholic who said they had tried everything
Speaker 2: and nothing.
Speaker 5: Worked anything like the ayahuasca.
Speaker 2: And so you know that ability of psychedelics to reset
Speaker 2: the brillin and Paul describes it as a rocket ship
Speaker 2: for therapy, so it.
Speaker 1: Really I have different I mean, look, I definitely think
Speaker 1: Paul is an incredible practitioner, and I love that people
Speaker 1: are exploring these different modalities now, like I've certainly guinea
Speaker 1: piqued myself from that first experience with this Dutch psychotherapist,
Speaker 1: which honestly completely changed my relationship with you know, like
Speaker 1: even smelling smoke, it completely changed. I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: just having no triggers or reactions. And that was after
Speaker 1: just a few sessions with him, and then went on
Speaker 1: to do many therapies. I spent a lot of time
Speaker 1: in Mexico and Guatemala and Belize working with shamans most
Speaker 1: of twenty ten, eleven and twelve doing because also as
Speaker 1: a musician you would know, the ayahuasca tradition is very
Speaker 1: musically based, so I spent a lot of time traveling
Speaker 1: around with some musicians and shamans, which was really beautiful
Speaker 1: and so colomcist.
Speaker 2: I wasn't expecting to have when we were talking about
Speaker 2: mindfulness and contemplators.
Speaker 1: Either, I don't usually talk about this, but I also
Speaker 1: I noticed that a lot of people, I mean, I
Speaker 1: do a lot of work with the startup community, for example,
Speaker 1: and it's a really popular the conversation certainly in Silicon
Speaker 1: Valley about five ten years ago, and I was often
Speaker 1: the case in Australia. You know, it's currently a big
Speaker 1: conversation with people talking about you know, psychedelic consistent therapy
Speaker 1: and also a microduc psych Yeah. Well also just like
Speaker 1: psychedelics because we're expanding our minds. The one thing I
Speaker 1: really noticed though, I had done a lot of work
Speaker 1: on self inquiry and self discovery, and I had quite
Speaker 1: strong practices around mindfulness, meditation and integration practices when I
Speaker 1: came to be psychedelic therapies. And I've noticed that folks
Speaker 1: who have done a bit of that self inquiry work,
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's just even having a basic mic
Speaker 1: on this practice or a meditation practice, or just any
Speaker 1: kind of self inquiry. Maybe you're someone who journals. Just
Speaker 1: having those practices in place before you start playing with
Speaker 1: the big staff.
Speaker 6: Yes, I think it's really important because I've I often.
Speaker 1: Will come across, say startup founders who have never meditated,
Speaker 1: and they'll go and try and do a ten day
Speaker 1: for passna retreat, like a non speaking intense the Pastna retreat,
Speaker 1: or they'll go and spend two weeks in the Amazon
Speaker 1: doing ayahuascar, or they'll go and you know, do LSD trips,
Speaker 1: you know, trying to emulate Hunter S.
Speaker 6: Thompson in the Dungle whatever.
Speaker 1: Like, I'm all for the exploration, and I think you've
Speaker 1: got to have some building blocks in place, because I've
Speaker 1: also seen those things have poor, poor effects, and I've
Speaker 1: usually seen them have poor floor effects with people who
Speaker 1: just don't have that sort of self inquiry practice and
Speaker 1: don't have some of those basics in place before they
Speaker 1: start exploring.
Speaker 2: I can get completely attest to this. I did an
Speaker 2: ayahuasca ceremony. There was a mexic our Spanish kid who
Speaker 2: never even smoked a cigarette and never never had a dream,
Speaker 2: had a joint, never had done anything, and somebody just
Speaker 2: told him he's going to do an aahuasca ceremony and
Speaker 2: he almost lost his mind on that ceremony, right, And.
Speaker 1: It's work, It's not you know, it's not like going
Speaker 1: to a rave or something like.
Speaker 6: It's work. It's you're working through things.
Speaker 1: I mean, in the Yogic tradition, we talk about like
Speaker 1: burning through sam scars, like getting to the deeper levels
Speaker 1: of your soul, of your psyche, of really understanding who
Speaker 1: you are and who you are in the universe and
Speaker 1: who the universe is in you. And I mean these
Speaker 1: are massive experiences. But if you don't really have a
Speaker 1: context for already who you might be in the universe,
Speaker 1: what that feels like, I think it would just feel terrifying.
Speaker 2: Because yes, and this is what it was like for him,
Speaker 2: And it took like five or six hours and then
Speaker 2: he all have was like see Clara or Clara, which
Speaker 2: is it's all clear, But he was almost losing his
Speaker 2: I think you do have to go into these things
Speaker 2: having done some either work on yourself or consciousness exploration,
Speaker 2: and go in with a sense of intention.
Speaker 5: I think that is really really important.
Speaker 2: And did you did you find then having had that
Speaker 2: background in mindfulness and then having the psychedelic therapies, did
Speaker 2: it influence your view of mindfulness? Did it deepen it?
Speaker 2: Did it change it? Did it accelerate it?
Speaker 5: You know? Was there any interaction that you find?
Speaker 6: Yeah? I think so.
Speaker 1: I mean I think for me, the meditation practice is
Speaker 1: kind of like the gym work, you know, like it's
Speaker 1: like the muscle building. And then a lot of my
Speaker 1: experiences with Ayahuascar ceremonies were you know, of being the watcher, you.
Speaker 7: Know, yes, yet watching me watching you, you know, and
Speaker 7: so to already have an experience with that and to
Speaker 7: already have muscles in that area, I feel like that
Speaker 7: gave me sort of a way to cope with it.
Speaker 1: Also, feel like having physical practices around it, you know,
Speaker 1: like enormous feelings coming up and visions and downloads. However
Speaker 1: people like to describe it. I also just feel like
Speaker 1: it's different for most people, even how they describe it
Speaker 1: and how they interact with it. But you know, you're
Speaker 1: getting these big downloads to be able to just sit
Speaker 1: with discomfort, to be able to sit with woll That's
Speaker 1: an interesting thought. To be able to observe that happening
Speaker 1: to your mind and your body, and to be in
Speaker 1: that as a witness is also quite I mean, some
Speaker 1: of the most beautiful experiences of my life, but also
Speaker 1: incredibly telling. You know, like I've resolved enormous things in
Speaker 1: that couple of years in those ceremonies, and you know,
Speaker 1: and really feel like I learned so much about myself
Speaker 1: and discovered a lot of peace in myself and in
Speaker 1: things that have happened in my life. And I think
Speaker 1: it was a very very beautiful gift. So I think
Speaker 1: also the cultural tradition of it, Like I loved being
Speaker 1: able to do it in Central America and to be
Speaker 1: working with these beautiful shamans and they invited me into
Speaker 1: this tradition, and you know, that felt really sacred and
Speaker 1: very beautiful. And so I also struggle a little bit
Speaker 1: with people just like having a swig to the beach
Speaker 1: with their mates, environs, you not agree more.
Speaker 2: I've had people invite me to ayahuasca ceremonies over here
Speaker 2: in Australia and I just point bank refuse because I've
Speaker 2: done probably over ten in the Amazon, but most of
Speaker 2: mine were very deep in the Amazon, with real bonafide shamans,
Speaker 2: not the ayahuasca tourism that's going on nigh, and it's
Speaker 2: that connection to spirit and the plants. It's just it's
Speaker 2: part of the whole experience. I actually felt that it
Speaker 2: was a pretty sacred experience. So I'm completely wet you.
Speaker 2: I just would not touch it here in Australia just
Speaker 2: for these people are gone and doing it pro jets
Speaker 2: and giggles.
Speaker 5: You know, go and take LSD if you want to
Speaker 5: do that.
Speaker 2: But for me, the plant stuff and the and the
Speaker 2: just the interaction with the Iahwaska vine and the ticuna
Speaker 2: leaf right is just it's mind boggling how those two combinations.
Speaker 2: And I asked the challenge, you know, how how do
Speaker 2: you know of these combinations of plants that create the magic?
Speaker 2: And they said, the plants teach us right, They've got.
Speaker 5: That long history.
Speaker 2: And as I said to people, you know, going and
Speaker 2: visiting the Mattis Indians in the Amazon, they just think
Speaker 2: very differently to us.
Speaker 5: They've got a completely different view of reality.
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, whether you're going there to
Speaker 2: resolve some stuff, whether it's drug addiction or trauma, or
Speaker 2: you're just as I was, going in for consciousness exploration.
Speaker 2: I think really respecting the environment and who's doing it
Speaker 2: and why you're doing it.
Speaker 5: I think that's hugely important.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and respecting the long and beautiful tradition of
Speaker 1: it as well, you know, the culture of it. We
Speaker 1: have to colonize everything. But I also you know, I
Speaker 1: think not only did the tradition of it, but making
Speaker 1: sure that it is that integrative process, like, yes, you
Speaker 1: are involved with it. The music for me was a
Speaker 1: huge part of those journeys, like I did quite a
Speaker 1: few me for those years, and the music for me
Speaker 1: became such a you know, a part of who I am,
Speaker 1: like drawing it out, the sweetness of different instruments and
Speaker 1: the gift of the musicians, the service of it. I
Speaker 1: think we often think about it as like, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: sitting here on my cushion or I'm lying in this
Speaker 1: little cot and I'm involved with this, you know, this
Speaker 1: mind bending experience.
Speaker 6: Whatever that is.
Speaker 1: But the kind of rules of it and the absolute
Speaker 1: beautiful service of the people who hold the space and
Speaker 1: hold the circle, who play the instruments, who are involved
Speaker 1: in the process, I think we sometimes kind of miss
Speaker 1: that that is part of it. I'm obsessed with this ritual,
Speaker 1: you know, the service and the ritual and the design
Speaker 1: of how that has just riven naturally in that culture,
Speaker 1: and how that has become such a part of the
Speaker 1: ceremony and why that's such an important and integral part
Speaker 1: of the ceremony.
Speaker 2: No, that was a very interesting, unplanned rabbitool that we
Speaker 2: went into. We should probably bring this conversation back to
Speaker 2: mindfulness and mindfulness very interesting as it was. But you
Speaker 2: so you are your director of Innovation at the is
Speaker 2: at the Center for Contemplative Studies at Manas, so talk
Speaker 2: to us about the interaction between mindfulness and innovation.
Speaker 1: Yes, well, so we call it M three CS because
Speaker 1: it's the Monished Center for Consciousness and Contemplative Studies, which
Speaker 1: is a long title, but M three CS exists to
Speaker 1: bring the wisdom traditions to life. So we're stands a
Speaker 1: research center and we're looking at how we can take
Speaker 1: ancient wisdom and bring it into communities, organizations, you know,
Speaker 1: into research and looking at the latest consciousness research. We
Speaker 1: are looking at things like AI, we're looking at dreaming,
Speaker 1: we're looking at meditation and mindfulness, compassion, so many different
Speaker 1: facets of that. And my role with the center is
Speaker 1: figuring out how we get that out of research and
Speaker 1: make it accessible to organizations and communities. So that's one
Speaker 1: part in you know, designing like education design and designing
Speaker 1: programs like either online. I come from this sort of
Speaker 1: startup background, so we now have a raft of courses
Speaker 1: and programs that people can access online, but also just
Speaker 1: you know, going out there into the community. So I'd
Speaker 1: give a lot of talks and get to talk a
Speaker 1: lot about the center and from workshops and various other
Speaker 1: sort of education programs across Australia and even beyond, which
Speaker 1: is really amazing.
Speaker 6: And then but all informed by this latest research.
Speaker 1: So really looking at I often joke it's like the
Speaker 1: conduit to bring more mindfulness, meditation, empathy, compassion, peak, performance,
Speaker 1: resilience out of the center and.
Speaker 5: Into my woah okay.
Speaker 2: And so you work a lot with businesses. How do
Speaker 2: you find the idea of mindfulness in the workplace?
Speaker 5: Has the acceptance of that or the openness to that?
Speaker 5: Has it changed over the years since you've been doing it?
Speaker 2: And do you find it was different in the diets,
Speaker 2: particularly in Silicon Valley than it was here?
Speaker 1: Yes, certainly. Well so when I was a baby, yoga teacher.
Speaker 1: I used to go into like football clubs and you know,
Speaker 1: various different groups like I work with Istra and ballet
Speaker 1: and a bunch of other things where I'd go in
Speaker 1: and teach them mindfulness and you'd have to sign an
Speaker 1: NDA like where they'd be like you can't. You got
Speaker 1: to go in the back door, like no one's talking
Speaker 1: about it. And then you know, ten years later I
Speaker 1: could that and people like Richmond has won a flag
Speaker 1: because you know Craig Hasen who works with me here
Speaker 1: at the.
Speaker 5: Time, Oh creek, Yeah he's awesome.
Speaker 6: Yeah, he's brilliant.
Speaker 1: And Emma Murray as well, like you know, one Richmond's flag.
Speaker 1: You know, they've done this amazing work. And so I
Speaker 1: feel like it's become much more integrated and mainstream. It's
Speaker 1: still not where it was in Silicon Valley. But also
Speaker 1: I mean I used to microdoze with my boss in
Speaker 1: San Francis because we were just like interested in the
Speaker 1: experiment to see how it would improve our activity and
Speaker 1: see what would happen that's not.
Speaker 6: Here in Australia, and generally I.
Speaker 1: Think, you know, I got pretty lucky with you know,
Speaker 1: with my Google connection and also with the timing of
Speaker 1: going to San Francisco, you know, I was kind of
Speaker 1: spending more time there twenty eleven, twenty twelve, twenty thirteen,
Speaker 1: when Wisdom two point zero was becoming this enormous movement
Speaker 1: over there, where Search inside Yourself was just started.
Speaker 5: Did search a show in yourself? Did that come out
Speaker 5: a Google? Yes?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, tell our listeners about that actually, because I've
Speaker 2: heard about that program.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So Search inside Yourself was basically I'll see if
Speaker 1: do I have I do I have the book here?
Speaker 6: One moment Clai Shade maintain.
Speaker 1: It's an amazing, amazing employee at Google and was just
Speaker 1: really interested in, you know, mindfulness and noticed that it
Speaker 1: really helped him perform and be a great e boye
Speaker 1: and was really interested in it bringing it to the
Speaker 1: organization and when it was a much smaller group and
Speaker 1: as a result just started like teaching them. His official
Speaker 1: title at Google for a long time was jolly good fellow.
Speaker 6: Very sweet man.
Speaker 1: And yeah, just started really the scaling of programs in
Speaker 1: this sort of way. So it was one of the first,
Speaker 1: I mean, aside from John cabots in'sa mindful mindful you
Speaker 1: know based mindfulness based.
Speaker 5: Destruction yes, sorry, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, those were two of these big programs
Speaker 1: that were sort of scaling within an organization or scaling
Speaker 1: within communities.
Speaker 6: Mindfulness practices.
Speaker 1: I mean when I say that these are the westernized
Speaker 1: versions of that, because these were originally scaled across householders
Speaker 1: all over India and of course like all through Southeast
Speaker 1: Asia and Asia and you know Zen Buddhist traditions, and
Speaker 1: this was I guess more of a commercial scalability, but
Speaker 1: it also in a lot of ways westernized and brought
Speaker 1: two people who may have been scared off by it
Speaker 1: or may have felt like it was more of a
Speaker 1: religious thing.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, it's been tornished with that brush for many years,
Speaker 2: particularly ten twenty years ago. Right, people used to think
Speaker 2: with you said mindfulness, it was a different religion, and
Speaker 2: so it put.
Speaker 5: A lot of people off.
Speaker 2: But now I think people realize it's I think that's
Speaker 2: were contemplated our consciousness and contemplated therapies are contemplative processes
Speaker 2: or whatever it's called. It makes it more open, right
Speaker 2: because it's away from that stigma of sitting with your
Speaker 2: legs crossed, arming away at yourself.
Speaker 5: Right. Yeah, A lot more to it.
Speaker 1: Than that, Yeah, but then you also look at you know,
Speaker 1: the rise of popularity. I mean rum Das is an
Speaker 1: obvious one from you know, that sort of twenty to
Speaker 1: thirty year ago period, but Tigna Hahn and Vietnam and France.
Speaker 1: You know Pema Children, who's American, but you know he's
Speaker 1: doing all of this amazing work. And they've been people
Speaker 1: who have done such a beautiful job of translating the
Speaker 1: practices of making them really practical for people. And I
Speaker 1: feel like people are really looking for a way to
Speaker 1: connect with these practices.
Speaker 6: And you know, we often joke.
Speaker 1: That like gen X's and gen z is and millennial
Speaker 1: also this sort of generation of one to cherry pick
Speaker 1: their spirituality in these different ways, to which I say,
Speaker 1: go for it, Like read widely. Just know yourself, try
Speaker 1: and understand and know yourself, know what works, be looking
Speaker 1: for different practices, cobble together what works for you. Find
Speaker 1: something that gives you peace and gives you agency and
Speaker 1: helps you feel connected with yourself and feel connected with
Speaker 1: the world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I totally endorsed that read widely. I mean I
Speaker 2: started I get very interested in different types of philosophies
Speaker 2: and religions when I was sort of seventeen eighteen. Then
Speaker 2: went traveled and went and did started doing a master's
Speaker 2: in social anthropology and did going on shamanism. We did
Speaker 2: a whole unit on shamanism and that really sparked my interest.
Speaker 2: But I think reading the different philosophical traditions, I think
Speaker 2: everybody should have to do that right, just to give
Speaker 2: them that bread and that understan standing of the old
Speaker 2: ancient wisdom and how it can be used today. I mean,
Speaker 2: one of the ones that's that's very familiar getting away
Speaker 2: from mindfulness. But just in terms of philosophy is the
Speaker 2: massive comeback that stoic philosophy that is actually hard on people.
Speaker 2: Why it really helps people to deal with, you know,
Speaker 2: challenges in life.
Speaker 1: Well, one of the stoicism was making an enormous comeback
Speaker 1: when I was still based in San Francisco, and one
Speaker 1: of the big things I noticed, especially amongst the young
Speaker 1: male developer set, was that it was really being misunderstood
Speaker 1: and misused in that old school you know, stiff up
Speaker 1: at smallest, Yeah, don't feel anything, squashed, it all down
Speaker 1: if you're a stoic Marcus aureally a set and it's like, no,
Speaker 1: that's not what he said at all.
Speaker 6: It's like, that's not what we're doing. So I also
Speaker 6: feel like.
Speaker 1: Doing all of these things in community is really important
Speaker 1: so that people can have these discussions, especially with young men.
Speaker 1: I noticed that they are having more and more discussions
Speaker 1: and starting to create more communities in Australia, for example,
Speaker 1: where they're having actual conversations about Yeah, I am having
Speaker 1: some really big feelings about this. And stoicism is about
Speaker 1: creating space, creating agency, creating awareness, creating critical thinking.
Speaker 6: There's a lot of.
Speaker 1: Backlash against forcing people to do mindfulness, you know, like
Speaker 1: I think you and I would both agree, like, yes,
Speaker 1: wisdom traditions. We want people to look at this. We
Speaker 1: want them to examine themselves. We want them to have
Speaker 1: you know, great critical thinking and understand themselves. And I
Speaker 1: love the idea of making all of this available to people,
Speaker 1: and you know, to have conversations like these where we're
Speaker 1: you know, letting people know that these kinds of explorations
Speaker 1: can give you a lot of peace, can give you
Speaker 1: a lot of agency, can give you tools. There are
Speaker 1: as many tools as there are different ways to explore.
Speaker 1: So try them out, you know, gide pig yourself a
Speaker 1: little bit, you know, you asked before about the organizational context.
Speaker 1: I think we start getting down a little bit of
Speaker 1: a slippery slope when we're starting to look at, you know,
Speaker 1: enforcing mindfulness, you know, or enforcing critical thinking. There's part
Speaker 1: of it that's like we should enforce critically But on
Speaker 1: the other hand, it's like you can lead horses to water,
Speaker 1: but we can't make them drink.
Speaker 6: We're just making these tools available to people.
Speaker 1: We're being kind and generous in offering to teach them,
Speaker 1: and people come to these things as they come to them,
Speaker 1: maybe early in life, might be late in life.
Speaker 5: So that kind of hart is my question.
Speaker 2: It is high to talk to me about the process
Speaker 2: of working with organizations. So presumably the center is doing
Speaker 2: pulling all of the ancient wisdom? Are they packaging it
Speaker 2: up and giving tools associated with it? And then you're
Speaker 2: going in and teaching these suite of tools in the
Speaker 2: background and saying here's further reading.
Speaker 5: Is that the way it works?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there's we have some six main programs
Speaker 1: that we're teaching, like a you know, mindfulness for wellbeing.
Speaker 6: Peak performance.
Speaker 1: We've got a you know, maintaining a mindful life. Those
Speaker 1: are both programs designed and created by Professor Craig Passage
Speaker 1: the best, but we also one of the things that
Speaker 1: we did well it was really a market led sort
Speaker 1: of situation. I went out and spoke to hundreds and
Speaker 1: hundreds of organizations and you know executives and looked at
Speaker 1: what are the key problems that you're dealing with here?
Speaker 1: What are you trying to solve in the organization? Where
Speaker 1: do you need support? And the answer was burnout. So
Speaker 1: that we went and took everything that they were talking about,
Speaker 1: looking at the key issues that they've been having with
Speaker 1: their staff, with you know, staff turnover and issues that
Speaker 1: people are having with managing stress. And we designed a
Speaker 1: program based off that, which is a true kind of
Speaker 1: market led offering.
Speaker 5: I like that, Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So we Navigating Burnout is the name of the course.
Speaker 6: You can sign up to it online.
Speaker 2: Right, so give our give our listeners, and I think
Speaker 2: that'd be a pretty blood bloody popular course because burnout,
Speaker 2: you know, it's on the rise in Australia. It's pretty
Speaker 2: shocking for it. The amount of ours that we work
Speaker 2: here are some of the highest in OECD, and we're
Speaker 2: getting big rates of burnout here. So talk us through
Speaker 2: some of the elements of the program, and particularly you
Speaker 2: know one or two practical tools that people can use
Speaker 2: to help not get burnt out, because once you're burnt out,
Speaker 2: I mean, I know all about the physiology of burnout.
Speaker 5: Once you're burnt.
Speaker 2: Out, it's a it's a massive hole to climb out of.
Speaker 5: I'm all about prevention rather than cure.
Speaker 6: Yeah one d P.
Speaker 1: Well, I think for leaders, part of it is in
Speaker 1: recognizing those behaviors in self. You know, how you drive
Speaker 1: in yourself? How aware are you of what you're asking
Speaker 1: your team to do? How where are you of the
Speaker 1: different ways in which your team thinks? Which I think
Speaker 1: is also really powerful around the neurodiversity conversation. How do
Speaker 1: the different people in your team work well? What do
Speaker 1: they need to be supported?
Speaker 6: What does that look like?
Speaker 1: And then from a personal level, both from a leader
Speaker 1: side and from a team side, what do you need?
Speaker 1: How well do you know yourself? You know, do you
Speaker 1: have practices that you need support in, you need financial
Speaker 1: aid to continue with? Do the other people in your
Speaker 1: office and team know what you need in order to thrive?
Speaker 1: What does that look like? We talk a bit about
Speaker 1: human flourishing, which is one of my favorite phrases, ever,
Speaker 1: I think that's a beautiful, a beautiful sentiment and idea.
Speaker 1: And then more broadly, it's you know, what can you control?
Speaker 1: What can you not control? I think we talk about
Speaker 1: those things a lot, but practically looking.
Speaker 6: At how you know in any given moment.
Speaker 1: How do you look at Okay, I can control this,
Speaker 1: I can't control this? Well, now what do I do
Speaker 1: with that? I'm still stressed about this. I'm still freaking
Speaker 1: out about that. So it's really a lot of exercises
Speaker 1: around creating agency for self, about perspective taking, how to
Speaker 1: slip back, how to you know, have somewherewith all around.
Speaker 1: This isn't the be all and end all? And this
Speaker 1: will pass, this too shall pass exactly exactly. And then
Speaker 1: one of my favorite units in this program is around tech.
Speaker 1: How do you engage with tech? How do you deal
Speaker 1: with it? What are your boundaries, what's your like sleep hygiene,
Speaker 1: what's your tech hygiene?
Speaker 5: Which you talk about enough disengaged with tech?
Speaker 2: I So I run lots of workshops around peak performance,
Speaker 2: and I'm all over sleep hyging, and you know, I'm
Speaker 2: like sleep.
Speaker 5: Is a weapon.
Speaker 2: And I asked people about you know, who's got televisions
Speaker 2: in your bedroom, and typically maybe ten to fifteen percent
Speaker 2: of hands will go up. I'll say, who brings a
Speaker 2: laptop or are a tablet into the bedroom and maybe
Speaker 2: it's about to see them, And I'm like, who's got
Speaker 2: a mobile phone in the bedroom? Ninety percent at least
Speaker 2: of hard to drop every time, and I'm like, it's
Speaker 2: my lime cluck.
Speaker 5: And everybody likes.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, buy a ten dollar alarm clock. You're
Speaker 2: titars because that mobile phone beside the bed. People think
Speaker 2: that it's doing nothing. It's a freaking attention thief. And
Speaker 2: I think the research shows the default mode network is
Speaker 2: more active when the mobile phone is beside the bed.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Craig Hassid talks about the default mode network a lot exactly.
Speaker 1: Well, even there's another researcher group here at Monash that
Speaker 1: looks at like your circadian rhythms and you know, even
Speaker 1: having your laptop screen, your iPad or your phone screen
Speaker 1: at the moments when you're trying to get off to sleep,
Speaker 1: what that does like the UV of that. You know,
Speaker 1: we talk about those special glasses that you would use
Speaker 1: and people think, oh, that looks too nerdy. I wouldn't
Speaker 1: do it. That's mucking with your sleep as well. All
Speaker 1: that attention is drawing away from you. So it's good
Speaker 1: to you know. I love that this course doesn't tell
Speaker 1: you to not use tech because I think a lot
Speaker 1: of the time we're kind of like, oh no, I'm
Speaker 1: not supposed to do it. It's like, it's not about guilt.
Speaker 1: We're looking for workability in the modern age. We're looking
Speaker 1: for how you can engage with these things, but also
Speaker 1: recognize that you're in charge. You're in charge of how
Speaker 1: much you use it. You have agency and awareness around
Speaker 1: how you use it and what that looks like. I
Speaker 1: really love that, like creating real plans for yourself so
Speaker 1: that it's you know, you are actually in charge of
Speaker 1: whether or not you touch that phone or not. Let's
Speaker 1: get more awareness there so that you are.
Speaker 2: So it sounds like that this is much more than
Speaker 2: just the mindfulness programs, because when people hear that, right,
Speaker 2: they're going, oh, they're going to come in, They're going
Speaker 2: to teach me how to meditate and you know, get
Speaker 2: in touch with myself.
Speaker 5: But from what we've been saying, there's.
Speaker 2: Lots of real practicalities about just living and working more effectively, yes.
Speaker 1: And I think I mean, I keep saying awareness and agency,
Speaker 1: but I feel like those are the two things that
Speaker 1: we work with a lot. It's like, how do you
Speaker 1: engage with yourself? How do you know what's bothering you?
Speaker 1: I mean, I think in the case of burnout, the
Speaker 1: number of people that we speak to and the number
Speaker 1: of organizations where we'll go in, and you know, we
Speaker 1: work a lot with emergency workers. I worked a lot
Speaker 1: with emergency workers in the US my previous company. The
Speaker 1: amount of people who are just shocked when they hit
Speaker 1: the wall and fall in a heap, they didn't even
Speaker 1: realize that it was happening. And so the earlier we
Speaker 1: can smell that smoke, the earlier we can get at
Speaker 1: finding those practices like noticing, oh, my eye is twitching,
Speaker 1: like okay, maybe that's a magnesium deficiency, or maybe you
Speaker 1: haven't slept properly in a long time and you're nearing
Speaker 1: an area that's dangerous for you and it's burnout and
Speaker 1: you're not going to be any good to yourself or
Speaker 1: to anyone else. How can we start to integrate these
Speaker 1: practices early? How can we be more aware earlier? How
Speaker 1: can we be looking out for each other in our teams,
Speaker 1: in our organizations, in our communities.
Speaker 6: In our families.
Speaker 1: You know, you're aware of how stress your partner would
Speaker 1: be on a scale of one to ten if you
Speaker 1: ask them, could they even tell you are they doing
Speaker 1: that internal temperature take even on a daily basis, like
Speaker 1: where are you at stress wise today? Okay? What relieves
Speaker 1: that pressure valve? I often use the analogy of a
Speaker 1: pool toy. You're like skimming on the surface of life,
Speaker 1: and then when things get really hot, the pool toy
Speaker 1: gets really tight and then you spring a leak or
Speaker 1: a kid jumps on you and you burst, and you know,
Speaker 1: you sink to the bottom of the pool. But you
Speaker 1: have that valve on there. And the more knowledge that
Speaker 1: you have around what inflates you and what relieves that pressure,
Speaker 1: that's just it's so important to just day to day
Speaker 1: well being, day to day equilibrium and just knowing what
Speaker 1: one of the lavers.
Speaker 6: That you need to pull.
Speaker 1: It is different for all of us. Someone like you know,
Speaker 1: having a donut. It might be the thing for someone else.
Speaker 1: It's a massage. For someone else, it's a walk, it's
Speaker 1: a surf, it's a you know, really understanding what the
Speaker 1: things are that relieve that pressure for you and help
Speaker 1: inflate you again get you back on track.
Speaker 2: I think that self awareness piece is really huge. There
Speaker 2: are so many people who are just sleepwalking through life,
Speaker 2: and they're sleepwalking towards burnout.
Speaker 5: And I see it.
Speaker 2: All the time in the work that I do that
Speaker 2: there's people who are really high achievers who are just
Speaker 2: they're running so hot. You know, they are running like
Speaker 2: a Formula one racing car. The rev counter is just
Speaker 2: so high, and because they've been doing it for so long,
Speaker 2: they just it becomes normal, right, And humans will adapt
Speaker 2: to that and you'll think that this is okay because
Speaker 2: this is just the way that it's been. And I
Speaker 2: always say to people, if you go on holidays and
Speaker 2: you get sick routinely at the start of the holiday,
Speaker 2: that's a big.
Speaker 5: Warning saying that you're running too.
Speaker 2: Hot, right, And you know, you ask them how long
Speaker 2: there's a Formula one engine last Not very long at
Speaker 2: all because it's running at such high revs.
Speaker 5: But yeah, that self awareness piece is really really critical.
Speaker 5: So are there any particular tools that you use for
Speaker 5: people around that self awareness or is it more just
Speaker 5: of an education processor kind of a mix of those things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean again, I think it is about having
Speaker 1: you know, as broad a toolkit as possible so that
Speaker 1: you can be trying things out for yourself.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 1: One of the big things we talk about will be
Speaker 1: things like caffeine and alcohol. You know, Like I'll notice,
Speaker 1: for example, if i don't get enough sleep, then the
Speaker 1: next morning, I'll want to have a bit of extra coffee.
Speaker 1: And then because I've had a bit of extra coffee
Speaker 1: I'll find it harder to wind down at.
Speaker 6: The end of the day.
Speaker 1: So mine having an extra glass of wine. Then my
Speaker 1: sleep is disturbed.
Speaker 2: Then you're levels go up. Then you tend to eat
Speaker 2: more shit food, right, You're less likely the exercise has.
Speaker 6: Been more alcohol.
Speaker 1: So you start to see how the levers work in
Speaker 1: tene with each other as well. Again, that's my particular poison,
Speaker 1: you know. So if I'm coming into a period of
Speaker 1: considerable stress, the first thing I'll do is stop drinking alcohol.
Speaker 1: That's just like one of the first things, Like I
Speaker 1: know it's going to be a really full on time.
Speaker 1: Not a huge drinker anyway, but it just means like
Speaker 1: just don't drink for a few weeks while we're going
Speaker 1: through this period, it means less alcohol, means more sleep
Speaker 1: and less caffeine. As a lever, you know the other
Speaker 1: things from a very basic level, get better at sitting
Speaker 1: with yourself and you know, I know I was talking
Speaker 1: before about PTSD contra indications and trauma, you know, contraindications.
Speaker 1: But it could just look like just writing a few
Speaker 1: lines down. I think of it as data, like internal
Speaker 1: data from the CPU, like we're really looking at like
Speaker 1: where are you at today? Are you tired? Are you excited?
Speaker 1: Are you over stimulated? Just giving yourself a little score,
Speaker 1: So just writing a little paragraph about where you're at
Speaker 1: for the day. It's just a good check in process.
Speaker 2: But it's like it's self awareness driving, isn't it. Whether
Speaker 2: it's journaling or doing some sort of a checklist, it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: actually am I feeling? Because often people just bundle through.
Speaker 1: With lotus Yeah, And then you know, I think the
Speaker 1: other part of it is, you know, adding to that
Speaker 1: mindfulness practice, whether that's listening to a guided meditation, doing
Speaker 1: a walking meditation, doing a more formal sit where you're
Speaker 1: just looking at yourself and then writing, you know, how
Speaker 1: do I feel after that? What have I noticed?
Speaker 6: Happens?
Speaker 1: There and then the other kind of It's not hack,
Speaker 1: I suppose, but one of the really lovely ways to
Speaker 1: engage with this in a physical sense, and I've I've
Speaker 1: found a lot of power in these physical movements is
Speaker 1: breath techniques. So you don't have to go into full
Speaker 1: like capalla varati skull shining breath kind of you know, extremes,
Speaker 1: or even wim howk kind of extremes. You could literally
Speaker 1: just do box breathing. You could breathe in for four
Speaker 1: and then out for six.
Speaker 5: I'm a big fan.
Speaker 6: That's my favorite.
Speaker 2: Yeaheah, yeah, And I much prefer that because when you're breathing,
Speaker 2: your spathetic nervous system temporarily of regulate.
Speaker 5: It's the breath.
Speaker 2: If you've asked me about breastwork ten or fifteen years ago,
Speaker 2: I have said it's fluffy bullshit turned by the crystal
Speaker 2: waving brigade.
Speaker 5: But now I am. I'm a crystal waiver right now.
Speaker 5: I'm so yeah, that's all over breathwork.
Speaker 2: I actually think that breath control is an absolutely fundamental
Speaker 2: tool for both well being and for peak performance, and
Speaker 2: elite cleats use it. Special forces guys use it, and
Speaker 2: they don't do shit, right, they do stuff that.
Speaker 1: Has well, like opera singers. I mean I come from
Speaker 1: a singing background. Like even recognizing before I go on stage,
Speaker 1: I'm still a bit of a nervous speaker, you know,
Speaker 1: like doing public speaking and things like that, I get nervous.
Speaker 1: I was a bit nervous to talk to you, you know.
Speaker 1: And you just learn to be able to regulate your
Speaker 1: breath and regulate yourself internally. It's actually very very powerful technique.
Speaker 2: And actually awareness of breath as well. I think the
Speaker 2: more breath what you do, the more you start to
Speaker 2: become more over. And then people will start to notice
Speaker 2: that when they're stressed, they might shallow breath, they might
Speaker 2: hold their breath.
Speaker 5: Right, A lot of people will.
Speaker 2: Hold their breath whenever they're stressed, and that's shitn't good
Speaker 2: for your physiology, right.
Speaker 1: But the amount of times that you go into a
Speaker 1: workshop and I'll just do a little bit of breath work,
Speaker 1: and you often say to someone you know, is this
Speaker 1: the first breath you've taken? To Danye, you just see
Speaker 1: them go oo, Like, just the relief on people's we
Speaker 1: don't know, we're just trying to get through. I mean,
Speaker 1: let's be honest, especially since lockdowns, especially in Melbourne one
Speaker 1: based like we've had a few pretty rough years, you know,
Speaker 1: and I think, yes, we're getting by, and it's time
Speaker 1: to look more at a flourishing time, a thriving time,
Speaker 1: than just surviving. And I want to be a part
Speaker 1: of that. I want to be a part of helping
Speaker 1: people move more into that state of more awareness, you know,
Speaker 1: asking for what they need and creating the circumstances the organizations,
Speaker 1: the communities that really nourish and support humans to be
Speaker 1: their best. And that doesn't look like, you know, revving
Speaker 1: out these Formula one engines. It looks like having a
Speaker 1: balanced and healthy and integrated life.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, touche Megan. Now I know you've got to run
Speaker 2: because you got something to go too, but thank you
Speaker 2: for sharing all of that. And so where can people
Speaker 2: go to learn more about what the center does and
Speaker 2: if they want to bring them into the workplace or
Speaker 2: do the online programs to things, and then you personally
Speaker 2: if they want to book you for as a speaker
Speaker 2: or follow you on socials.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's it is the Monash Center for Consciousness
Speaker 1: and Contemplative Studies. So if you just search Monash M
Speaker 1: three cs. That's usually the easiest way to find it.
Speaker 1: You can also look up Monash Training for Humanity. You
Speaker 1: can find me at Meganflamer dot com. I also write
Speaker 1: a little substack newsletter which is a bit of fun.
Speaker 1: It's really me looking at what happens when I pull
Speaker 1: these levers on myself.
Speaker 6: So it's sort of my guinea pig newsletter.
Speaker 1: So that's at Substack, and it's just called Excited Adult
Speaker 1: because that I feel like that's why I'm alive, to
Speaker 1: discover why adults maintain excitement when they get older. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you can find me on like Instagram, Twitter and
Speaker 1: things like that. Are we still using Twitter?
Speaker 6: I don't know. I have ab checked it, but.
Speaker 1: Certainly always up for a chat about mindfulness and wisdom
Speaker 1: and contemplation.
Speaker 6: You know, I think that's why we're here to understand that.
Speaker 5: Megan, thank you for sharing your wisdom and your contemplation.
Speaker 5: Thank you for the unexpected little.
Speaker 2: Little rabbit hole into the world of ayahuasca and other
Speaker 2: shamanic modalities.
Speaker 6: It was very far oh, very very fun. Paul, thanks
Speaker 6: so much.
Speaker 5: A good time