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Speaker 1: If you have particularly traumatic experiences, intense experiences around violence,

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Speaker 1: you know, emergency situations, being trapped, terror situations, like stressful situations,

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Speaker 1: to sit with those feelings in theory, you're sitting there

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Speaker 1: and you're creating space for them, and it's a lovely

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Speaker 1: experience and you're very calm, but often your body doesn't

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Speaker 1: know that that's a very calming, safe experience. To sit

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Speaker 1: there and to deliberately look at it can retraumatize people.

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Speaker 2: Everyone.

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Speaker 3: Before we get into this week's podcast, we got a

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Speaker 3: pretty cool announcement to Mike.

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Speaker 4: You are and I able to connect with us. We

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Speaker 4: have a pretty cool little widget that's on the website.

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Speaker 4: Just go to polteilor dot beiz Forwards Life podcast and

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Speaker 4: near the top of the piers, you'll see a little

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Speaker 4: icon that says send a message to the Poul Taylor podcast.

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Speaker 3: And so what we can do with that you just

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Speaker 3: click on that and then you send us an audio

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Speaker 3: message and we will get the audio message.

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Speaker 5: Now, the first thing I want to do with.

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Speaker 3: Using it is actually do and ask me anything episode.

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Speaker 3: So all you got to do if you got a

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Speaker 3: question that we want me to cover is just go

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Speaker 3: to Paul Taylor dot b is z Forward Slash Podcast

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Speaker 3: and on start the recording, and then send us a

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Speaker 3: message about what you would like me to talk about

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Speaker 3: and they ask me anything and leave your name. We

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Speaker 3: will call it out on the show. I'll get that

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Speaker 3: all put together. And the other thing you can do

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Speaker 3: is just leave us a message about what you like

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Speaker 3: about the podcast, what you don't like about the podcast

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Speaker 3: day I talk too much, all of that sort of stuff,

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Speaker 3: and just give us some feedback and we will use

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Speaker 3: that to continuously improve. So looking forward to hearing from

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Speaker 3: you now I hover the podcast.

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Speaker 5: Megan Flamer, Welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 6: Lovely to be here.

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Speaker 7: Now.

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Speaker 2: You have a pretty eclectic background, I think we should

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Speaker 2: say so you kind of a journalist by tread and

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Speaker 2: broadcasting and a bit of a jazz singer as well,

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Speaker 2: I know in.

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Speaker 6: The shower now a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah right, So talk us through that background before we

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Speaker 2: get into what you're doing. Ni.

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Speaker 6: Yes, so yeah, I was.

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Speaker 1: I started broadcasting at the West Australia Academy of Performing

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Speaker 1: Arts and then started working with the ABC when I

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Speaker 1: was reasonably young. So spent sort of ten fifteen years

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Speaker 1: working in and around the ABC and working you know.

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Speaker 1: As an emergency services broadcaster, I covered a lot of

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Speaker 1: bushfires and international emergencies, and I was one of the

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Speaker 1: journalists who covered the Black Saturday bushfires Wow Yeah, And.

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Speaker 6: I was working for local radio.

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Speaker 1: I'd also been working for a program called The Country Hour,

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Speaker 1: so Digioneral and Rural Australia, and was quite involved with

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Speaker 1: those communities that were affected and also quite traumatized.

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Speaker 6: By the experience of it.

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Speaker 1: And I was already what I like to call hippie

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Speaker 1: adjacent when that happened.

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Speaker 8: I'd done my yoga, Yes, I've done my yoga teacher training,

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Speaker 8: I was doing, you know, my mindfulness teacher training and

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Speaker 8: was really interested in that area.

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Speaker 1: And then realize when it kind of came down to it,

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Speaker 1: not that you can't sort of take yourself off in

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Speaker 1: an emergency situation or a fire situation to take a

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Speaker 1: quite few moments, but in the case of PTSD, you know,

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Speaker 1: mindfulness meditation can often be contraindicated as well.

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Speaker 6: So I found that the things that I've.

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Speaker 1: Been using to support my stress relief and stress management

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Speaker 1: suddenly didn't work for me. And so I got really

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Speaker 1: obsessed with what actually works for people when they've had

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Speaker 1: traumatic pasts or you know, are in current really difficult situations,

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Speaker 1: and became really obsessed by that question and then have

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Speaker 1: spent the last fifteen years of exploring that, like working

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Speaker 1: with people who are in really stressful environments, have really

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Speaker 1: intense or stressful jobs in Asia, in the US, and

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Speaker 1: then back here in Australia. I moved back here in

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Speaker 1: twenty eighteen after a decade overseas.

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Speaker 5: And you spent by the time in Silicon Valley, didn't you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So I was based out of San Francisco,

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Speaker 1: so I guess I went via Asia. So after So

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Speaker 1: two thousand and nine was the Bush Buyers, and then

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Speaker 1: that same year I moved up to Bangkok and I

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Speaker 1: was working for a journalist up there and started a

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Speaker 1: company there where I was, you know, kind of exploring

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Speaker 1: these things, you know, looking at mindfulness and how to

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Speaker 1: de stress people as well as as one can. I

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Speaker 1: think with retreats, what I was hoping is people would

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Speaker 1: come and have these transformative experiences and then they go

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Speaker 1: back to their lives all transformed. And I realized very

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Speaker 1: quickly you go and you have the transformative experience, and

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Speaker 1: then you go back to life as it is like

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Speaker 1: there's still life.

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Speaker 6: And bills and all the city things.

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Speaker 1: So I spent a lot of time over the next

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Speaker 1: five years traveling around the world and teaching these retreats,

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Speaker 1: but noticing more and more again that people are not

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Speaker 1: really connecting with the practices of well being in their

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Speaker 1: normal lives. They're not figuring out how they can apply

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Speaker 1: those in everyday life. It's more we're taking a week

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Speaker 1: out and we're escaping and going somewhere beautiful and sunny

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Speaker 1: in the jungle, and then you kind of go back

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Speaker 1: to business as usual. And so part of me moving

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Speaker 1: to San Francisco was people starting to talk to me

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Speaker 1: more about like, what would this look like in an organization?

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Speaker 1: How do we start making those shifts? And I got

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Speaker 1: really lucky. When I first moved to San Francisco, I

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Speaker 1: was working with a company that does game design, and

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Speaker 1: I met a few people who were working at Google

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Speaker 1: and they were looking for someone to come and give

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Speaker 1: a talk about, you know, kind of journalists to have

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Speaker 1: to look at traumatic images, and a lot of these

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Speaker 1: lawyers that they had at Google were looking at traumatic

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Speaker 1: images as they were teaching algorithms. Is this kind of

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Speaker 1: early day, It's like twenty fourteen, and so these lawyers

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Speaker 1: are kind of, you know, looking at this information and

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Speaker 1: they're quite disturbed by it. And so I gave a

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Speaker 1: talk there and then they became one of my first clients,

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Speaker 1: which was really great.

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Speaker 5: It's a pretty good first client.

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Speaker 6: It was a pretty good first client.

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Speaker 1: I got very lucky and it was completely I mean

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Speaker 1: I often complained about this fin Australia, like I noticed

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Speaker 1: in the US. You beat a party, or you'd be

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Speaker 1: just at a cafe or something and you talk to

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Speaker 1: someone about something and they'd say, I know someone that

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Speaker 1: we could connect you with, or I reckon.

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Speaker 6: You should talk to this guy.

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Speaker 1: It's like this very very very generous networking kind of culture.

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Speaker 1: Not it never felt fake or transactional to me in

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Speaker 1: that way. It just felt enormously helpful, especially as some

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Speaker 1: you know, yoga teacher journal who rocked up there as

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Speaker 1: an organizational designer, you know, not really knowing one hundred

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Speaker 1: percent what I was doing. So I got really lucky

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Speaker 1: with the people that I got to meet and then

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Speaker 1: started doing that. I actually started a company over in

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Speaker 1: the States that was Mindful under Fire and then was

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Speaker 1: based there until yeah, twenty eighteen to nearly five years

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Speaker 1: doing that kind.

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Speaker 2: Of work, So tell me why does the traditional So

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Speaker 2: you said that the traditional sort of mindful the stuff

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Speaker 2: when you've been through really hard experiences, is suboptimal or

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Speaker 2: often doesn't work.

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Speaker 5: Why is that?

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Speaker 1: And I'm not a I'm a mental health first data

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Speaker 1: but I'm not a mental health professional, so I'm always

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Speaker 1: careful of what I recommended say there. But in my

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Speaker 1: personal experience and certainly with groups that I've worked with

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Speaker 1: who specialize in PTSD, you know, if you think about

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Speaker 1: what it is to be in a meditation or a

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Speaker 1: mindfulness experience is focusing on and paying attention to what's

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Speaker 1: happening in your mind, what's happening in your body, sitting

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Speaker 1: with and noticing what's going on as you're sitting there.

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Speaker 6: If you have.

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Speaker 1: Particularly traumatic experiences, you know, intense experiences around violence, you know,

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Speaker 1: emergency situations, being trapped, terror situations, like any of those things.

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Speaker 1: I've worked a lot with people from prisons, for example,

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Speaker 1: like really intense lockdown, stressful situations where you're, you know,

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Speaker 1: in something where you are in physical danger. To sit

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Speaker 1: with those feelings in theory, you're sitting there and you're

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Speaker 1: creating space for them and it's a lovely experience and

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Speaker 1: you're very calm, but often your body doesn't know that

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Speaker 1: that's a very calming, safe experience. To sit there and

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Speaker 1: to deliberately look at it can retraumatize people. For me personally,

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Speaker 1: thinking about being in a bush by a situation, sitting

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Speaker 1: there and you know, ad what it felt like to

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Speaker 1: be in that space, you know, imagining the smells and

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Speaker 1: being with that. I'm now able to do that. But

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Speaker 1: this is like you know, wade later.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, with the benefit of all of that distance and

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Speaker 2: the emotional intensity reducing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I can see how hi in and of

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Speaker 2: the moment, revisiting that and trying to set with it

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Speaker 2: can be contra productive for quite a.

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Speaker 1: Lot of people, Yes, especially early on. And I'd already

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Speaker 1: been someone who would meditate and been into all this

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Speaker 1: stuff for over a decade when I came to it,

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Speaker 1: you know that when those situations happened, So it wasn't

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Speaker 1: that I wasn't already an experienced meditator, but I started

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Speaker 1: to learn different ways of dealing with it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I did some interesting, different alternative therapies and that helped

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Speaker 1: a lot for me. The physicality of things helped. So

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Speaker 1: it's like shaking and.

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Speaker 5: Moving your body.

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Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, like tapping.

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Speaker 1: Tapping was one of those things that at the beginning

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Speaker 1: I hated and I was like, this is that's stupid,

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Speaker 1: Please don't make me do this.

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Speaker 6: That was actually really.

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Speaker 1: Helpful physical anchors, breath work. I mean, I was already

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Speaker 1: a yoga teacher, so a lot of that, like noticing

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Speaker 1: things arise and moving through them. So I got pretty experimental.

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Speaker 1: I mean I treated myself as my own giddepig and

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Speaker 1: spent a lot of time working with that. And now

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Speaker 1: you know, there will be times when I will deliberately

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Speaker 1: put myself back into thinking about situations that have been

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Speaker 1: traumatizing or upsetting, and I'll spend some time.

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Speaker 2: Tell me this, did you ever do when you were

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Speaker 2: experimenting with those different therapies? She talked about tapping, which

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Speaker 2: I'm familiar with. Do you ever do emdr?

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Speaker 6: Yes?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so, because that's really interesting.

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Speaker 2: There's actually a bucket lord of research around it and

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Speaker 2: nine mechanisms understood mechanisms.

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Speaker 5: By how it works.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, So that was one of the early things

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Speaker 1: that I tried, even before I left Australia, and at

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Speaker 1: the time hated it, like really was like again, it

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Speaker 1: felt a bit like the tapping.

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Speaker 6: It's like, what is this?

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Speaker 1: And I think I was impatient. I was really highly

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Speaker 1: strung about all of it as well. It's just like

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Speaker 1: I just need to find something that works. One of

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Speaker 1: the things that I did, I guess somewhat illegally. I

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Speaker 1: worked with a psychotherapist from the Netherlands who was in

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Speaker 1: Thailand and he did the MDR using MDMA as well.

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Speaker 2: So you're an early proponent of the because there's there's

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Speaker 2: actually a barke at Lord of research around that. And

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Speaker 2: I interviewed a guy a few weeks ago, Paul with

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Speaker 2: an unpronouncable sonium and who is the lead researcher in

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Speaker 2: psychedelic assistant therapy in Australia. I think he's connected to

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Speaker 2: is It Monster and I can't quite remember which one

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Speaker 2: he's connected to.

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Speaker 1: Paul at NISKI. Yes, he's amazing, He's at Monit Yes.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, he's incredible. I I did a talk with him,

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Speaker 2: we were both doing a talk at the YPO, the

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Speaker 2: Young President's organization.

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Speaker 5: His stuff was absolutely mind blowing.

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Speaker 2: I got really quite My interest was piqued in this

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Speaker 2: twenty odd years ago when I was in the Amazon

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Speaker 2: jungle with a shaman taking ayahuasca, going on an aahuasca journey,

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Speaker 2: and mine was exploration. But there were a couple of

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Speaker 2: people there, one who was a heroin addict and one

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Speaker 2: who was an alcoholic who said they had tried everything

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Speaker 2: and nothing.

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Speaker 5: Worked anything like the ayahuasca.

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Speaker 2: And so you know that ability of psychedelics to reset

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Speaker 2: the brillin and Paul describes it as a rocket ship

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Speaker 2: for therapy, so it.

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Speaker 1: Really I have different I mean, look, I definitely think

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Speaker 1: Paul is an incredible practitioner, and I love that people

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Speaker 1: are exploring these different modalities now, like I've certainly guinea

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Speaker 1: piqued myself from that first experience with this Dutch psychotherapist,

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Speaker 1: which honestly completely changed my relationship with you know, like

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Speaker 1: even smelling smoke, it completely changed. I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: just having no triggers or reactions. And that was after

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Speaker 1: just a few sessions with him, and then went on

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Speaker 1: to do many therapies. I spent a lot of time

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Speaker 1: in Mexico and Guatemala and Belize working with shamans most

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Speaker 1: of twenty ten, eleven and twelve doing because also as

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Speaker 1: a musician you would know, the ayahuasca tradition is very

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Speaker 1: musically based, so I spent a lot of time traveling

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Speaker 1: around with some musicians and shamans, which was really beautiful

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Speaker 1: and so colomcist.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't expecting to have when we were talking about

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Speaker 2: mindfulness and contemplators.

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Speaker 1: Either, I don't usually talk about this, but I also

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Speaker 1: I noticed that a lot of people, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: do a lot of work with the startup community, for example,

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Speaker 1: and it's a really popular the conversation certainly in Silicon

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Speaker 1: Valley about five ten years ago, and I was often

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Speaker 1: the case in Australia. You know, it's currently a big

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Speaker 1: conversation with people talking about you know, psychedelic consistent therapy

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Speaker 1: and also a microduc psych Yeah. Well also just like

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Speaker 1: psychedelics because we're expanding our minds. The one thing I

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Speaker 1: really noticed though, I had done a lot of work

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Speaker 1: on self inquiry and self discovery, and I had quite

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Speaker 1: strong practices around mindfulness, meditation and integration practices when I

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Speaker 1: came to be psychedelic therapies. And I've noticed that folks

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Speaker 1: who have done a bit of that self inquiry work,

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Speaker 1: you know, whether it's just even having a basic mic

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Speaker 1: on this practice or a meditation practice, or just any

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Speaker 1: kind of self inquiry. Maybe you're someone who journals. Just

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Speaker 1: having those practices in place before you start playing with

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Speaker 1: the big staff.

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Speaker 6: Yes, I think it's really important because I've I often.

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Speaker 1: Will come across, say startup founders who have never meditated,

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Speaker 1: and they'll go and try and do a ten day

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Speaker 1: for passna retreat, like a non speaking intense the Pastna retreat,

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Speaker 1: or they'll go and spend two weeks in the Amazon

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Speaker 1: doing ayahuascar, or they'll go and you know, do LSD trips,

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Speaker 1: you know, trying to emulate Hunter S.

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Speaker 6: Thompson in the Dungle whatever.

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Speaker 1: Like, I'm all for the exploration, and I think you've

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Speaker 1: got to have some building blocks in place, because I've

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Speaker 1: also seen those things have poor, poor effects, and I've

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Speaker 1: usually seen them have poor floor effects with people who

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Speaker 1: just don't have that sort of self inquiry practice and

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Speaker 1: don't have some of those basics in place before they

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Speaker 1: start exploring.

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Speaker 2: I can get completely attest to this. I did an

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Speaker 2: ayahuasca ceremony. There was a mexic our Spanish kid who

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Speaker 2: never even smoked a cigarette and never never had a dream,

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Speaker 2: had a joint, never had done anything, and somebody just

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Speaker 2: told him he's going to do an aahuasca ceremony and

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Speaker 2: he almost lost his mind on that ceremony, right, And.

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Speaker 1: It's work, It's not you know, it's not like going

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Speaker 1: to a rave or something like.

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Speaker 6: It's work. It's you're working through things.

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Speaker 1: I mean, in the Yogic tradition, we talk about like

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Speaker 1: burning through sam scars, like getting to the deeper levels

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Speaker 1: of your soul, of your psyche, of really understanding who

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Speaker 1: you are and who you are in the universe and

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Speaker 1: who the universe is in you. And I mean these

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Speaker 1: are massive experiences. But if you don't really have a

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Speaker 1: context for already who you might be in the universe,

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Speaker 1: what that feels like, I think it would just feel terrifying.

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Speaker 2: Because yes, and this is what it was like for him,

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Speaker 2: And it took like five or six hours and then

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Speaker 2: he all have was like see Clara or Clara, which

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Speaker 2: is it's all clear, But he was almost losing his

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Speaker 2: I think you do have to go into these things

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Speaker 2: having done some either work on yourself or consciousness exploration,

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Speaker 2: and go in with a sense of intention.

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Speaker 5: I think that is really really important.

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Speaker 2: And did you did you find then having had that

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Speaker 2: background in mindfulness and then having the psychedelic therapies, did

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Speaker 2: it influence your view of mindfulness? Did it deepen it?

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Speaker 2: Did it change it? Did it accelerate it?

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Speaker 5: You know? Was there any interaction that you find?

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Speaker 6: Yeah? I think so.

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Speaker 1: I mean I think for me, the meditation practice is

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Speaker 1: kind of like the gym work, you know, like it's

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Speaker 1: like the muscle building. And then a lot of my

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Speaker 1: experiences with Ayahuascar ceremonies were you know, of being the watcher, you.

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Speaker 7: Know, yes, yet watching me watching you, you know, and

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Speaker 7: so to already have an experience with that and to

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Speaker 7: already have muscles in that area, I feel like that

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Speaker 7: gave me sort of a way to cope with it.

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Speaker 1: Also, feel like having physical practices around it, you know,

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Speaker 1: like enormous feelings coming up and visions and downloads. However

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Speaker 1: people like to describe it. I also just feel like

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Speaker 1: it's different for most people, even how they describe it

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Speaker 1: and how they interact with it. But you know, you're

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Speaker 1: getting these big downloads to be able to just sit

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Speaker 1: with discomfort, to be able to sit with woll That's

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Speaker 1: an interesting thought. To be able to observe that happening

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Speaker 1: to your mind and your body, and to be in

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Speaker 1: that as a witness is also quite I mean, some

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Speaker 1: of the most beautiful experiences of my life, but also

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Speaker 1: incredibly telling. You know, like I've resolved enormous things in

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Speaker 1: that couple of years in those ceremonies, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and really feel like I learned so much about myself

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Speaker 1: and discovered a lot of peace in myself and in

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Speaker 1: things that have happened in my life. And I think

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Speaker 1: it was a very very beautiful gift. So I think

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Speaker 1: also the cultural tradition of it, Like I loved being

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Speaker 1: able to do it in Central America and to be

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Speaker 1: working with these beautiful shamans and they invited me into

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Speaker 1: this tradition, and you know, that felt really sacred and

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Speaker 1: very beautiful. And so I also struggle a little bit

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Speaker 1: with people just like having a swig to the beach

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Speaker 1: with their mates, environs, you not agree more.

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Speaker 2: I've had people invite me to ayahuasca ceremonies over here

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Speaker 2: in Australia and I just point bank refuse because I've

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Speaker 2: done probably over ten in the Amazon, but most of

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Speaker 2: mine were very deep in the Amazon, with real bonafide shamans,

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Speaker 2: not the ayahuasca tourism that's going on nigh, and it's

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Speaker 2: that connection to spirit and the plants. It's just it's

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Speaker 2: part of the whole experience. I actually felt that it

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Speaker 2: was a pretty sacred experience. So I'm completely wet you.

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Speaker 2: I just would not touch it here in Australia just

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Speaker 2: for these people are gone and doing it pro jets

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Speaker 2: and giggles.

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Speaker 5: You know, go and take LSD if you want to

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Speaker 5: do that.

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Speaker 2: But for me, the plant stuff and the and the

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Speaker 2: just the interaction with the Iahwaska vine and the ticuna

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Speaker 2: leaf right is just it's mind boggling how those two combinations.

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Speaker 2: And I asked the challenge, you know, how how do

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Speaker 2: you know of these combinations of plants that create the magic?

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Speaker 2: And they said, the plants teach us right, They've got.

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Speaker 5: That long history.

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Speaker 2: And as I said to people, you know, going and

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Speaker 2: visiting the Mattis Indians in the Amazon, they just think

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Speaker 2: very differently to us.

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Speaker 5: They've got a completely different view of reality.

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Speaker 2: And I think, you know, whether you're going there to

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Speaker 2: resolve some stuff, whether it's drug addiction or trauma, or

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Speaker 2: you're just as I was, going in for consciousness exploration.

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Speaker 2: I think really respecting the environment and who's doing it

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Speaker 2: and why you're doing it.

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Speaker 5: I think that's hugely important.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and respecting the long and beautiful tradition of

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Speaker 1: it as well, you know, the culture of it. We

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Speaker 1: have to colonize everything. But I also you know, I

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Speaker 1: think not only did the tradition of it, but making

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Speaker 1: sure that it is that integrative process, like, yes, you

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Speaker 1: are involved with it. The music for me was a

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Speaker 1: huge part of those journeys, like I did quite a

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Speaker 1: few me for those years, and the music for me

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Speaker 1: became such a you know, a part of who I am,

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Speaker 1: like drawing it out, the sweetness of different instruments and

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Speaker 1: the gift of the musicians, the service of it. I

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Speaker 1: think we often think about it as like, oh, I'm

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Speaker 1: sitting here on my cushion or I'm lying in this

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Speaker 1: little cot and I'm involved with this, you know, this

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Speaker 1: mind bending experience.

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Speaker 6: Whatever that is.

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Speaker 1: But the kind of rules of it and the absolute

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Speaker 1: beautiful service of the people who hold the space and

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Speaker 1: hold the circle, who play the instruments, who are involved

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Speaker 1: in the process, I think we sometimes kind of miss

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Speaker 1: that that is part of it. I'm obsessed with this ritual,

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Speaker 1: you know, the service and the ritual and the design

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Speaker 1: of how that has just riven naturally in that culture,

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Speaker 1: and how that has become such a part of the

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Speaker 1: ceremony and why that's such an important and integral part

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Speaker 1: of the ceremony.

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Speaker 2: No, that was a very interesting, unplanned rabbitool that we

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Speaker 2: went into. We should probably bring this conversation back to

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Speaker 2: mindfulness and mindfulness very interesting as it was. But you

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Speaker 2: so you are your director of Innovation at the is

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Speaker 2: at the Center for Contemplative Studies at Manas, so talk

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Speaker 2: to us about the interaction between mindfulness and innovation.

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Speaker 1: Yes, well, so we call it M three CS because

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Speaker 1: it's the Monished Center for Consciousness and Contemplative Studies, which

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Speaker 1: is a long title, but M three CS exists to

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Speaker 1: bring the wisdom traditions to life. So we're stands a

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Speaker 1: research center and we're looking at how we can take

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Speaker 1: ancient wisdom and bring it into communities, organizations, you know,

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Speaker 1: into research and looking at the latest consciousness research. We

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Speaker 1: are looking at things like AI, we're looking at dreaming,

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Speaker 1: we're looking at meditation and mindfulness, compassion, so many different

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Speaker 1: facets of that. And my role with the center is

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Speaker 1: figuring out how we get that out of research and

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Speaker 1: make it accessible to organizations and communities. So that's one

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Speaker 1: part in you know, designing like education design and designing

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Speaker 1: programs like either online. I come from this sort of

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Speaker 1: startup background, so we now have a raft of courses

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Speaker 1: and programs that people can access online, but also just

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Speaker 1: you know, going out there into the community. So I'd

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Speaker 1: give a lot of talks and get to talk a

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Speaker 1: lot about the center and from workshops and various other

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Speaker 1: sort of education programs across Australia and even beyond, which

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Speaker 1: is really amazing.

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Speaker 6: And then but all informed by this latest research.

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Speaker 1: So really looking at I often joke it's like the

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Speaker 1: conduit to bring more mindfulness, meditation, empathy, compassion, peak, performance,

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00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 1: resilience out of the center and.

442
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:14,160
Speaker 5: Into my woah okay.

443
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 2: And so you work a lot with businesses. How do

444
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 2: you find the idea of mindfulness in the workplace?

445
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 5: Has the acceptance of that or the openness to that?

446
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,360
Speaker 5: Has it changed over the years since you've been doing it?

447
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 2: And do you find it was different in the diets,

448
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,479
Speaker 2: particularly in Silicon Valley than it was here?

449
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 1: Yes, certainly. Well so when I was a baby, yoga teacher.

450
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,439
Speaker 1: I used to go into like football clubs and you know,

451
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: various different groups like I work with Istra and ballet

452
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 1: and a bunch of other things where I'd go in

453
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 1: and teach them mindfulness and you'd have to sign an

454
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: NDA like where they'd be like you can't. You got

455
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 1: to go in the back door, like no one's talking

456
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: about it. And then you know, ten years later I

457
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 1: could that and people like Richmond has won a flag

458
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: because you know Craig Hasen who works with me here

459
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: at the.

460
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 5: Time, Oh creek, Yeah he's awesome.

461
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, he's brilliant.

462
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 1: And Emma Murray as well, like you know, one Richmond's flag.

463
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: You know, they've done this amazing work. And so I

464
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: feel like it's become much more integrated and mainstream. It's

465
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: still not where it was in Silicon Valley. But also

466
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: I mean I used to microdoze with my boss in

467
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 1: San Francis because we were just like interested in the

468
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 1: experiment to see how it would improve our activity and

469
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 1: see what would happen that's not.

470
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 6: Here in Australia, and generally I.

471
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: Think, you know, I got pretty lucky with you know,

472
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 1: with my Google connection and also with the timing of

473
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: going to San Francisco, you know, I was kind of

474
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: spending more time there twenty eleven, twenty twelve, twenty thirteen,

475
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: when Wisdom two point zero was becoming this enormous movement

476
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: over there, where Search inside Yourself was just started.

477
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 5: Did search a show in yourself? Did that come out

478
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 5: a Google? Yes?

479
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, tell our listeners about that actually, because I've

480
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 2: heard about that program.

481
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, So Search inside Yourself was basically I'll see if

482
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 1: do I have I do I have the book here?

483
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 6: One moment Clai Shade maintain.

484
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 1: It's an amazing, amazing employee at Google and was just

485
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 1: really interested in, you know, mindfulness and noticed that it

486
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,440
Speaker 1: really helped him perform and be a great e boye

487
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 1: and was really interested in it bringing it to the

488
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: organization and when it was a much smaller group and

489
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: as a result just started like teaching them. His official

490
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: title at Google for a long time was jolly good fellow.

491
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 6: Very sweet man.

492
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 1: And yeah, just started really the scaling of programs in

493
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 1: this sort of way. So it was one of the first,

494
00:26:55,640 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: I mean, aside from John cabots in'sa mindful mindful you

495
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: know based mindfulness based.

496
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 5: Destruction yes, sorry, yeah, yeah.

497
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, those were two of these big programs

498
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: that were sort of scaling within an organization or scaling

499
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 1: within communities.

500
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 6: Mindfulness practices.

501
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,959
Speaker 1: I mean when I say that these are the westernized

502
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: versions of that, because these were originally scaled across householders

503
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 1: all over India and of course like all through Southeast

504
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: Asia and Asia and you know Zen Buddhist traditions, and

505
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: this was I guess more of a commercial scalability, but

506
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: it also in a lot of ways westernized and brought

507
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 1: two people who may have been scared off by it

508
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 1: or may have felt like it was more of a

509
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: religious thing.

510
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, it's been tornished with that brush for many years,

511
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 2: particularly ten twenty years ago. Right, people used to think

512
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 2: with you said mindfulness, it was a different religion, and

513
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 2: so it put.

514
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 5: A lot of people off.

515
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 2: But now I think people realize it's I think that's

516
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 2: were contemplated our consciousness and contemplated therapies are contemplative processes

517
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 2: or whatever it's called. It makes it more open, right

518
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 2: because it's away from that stigma of sitting with your

519
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 2: legs crossed, arming away at yourself.

520
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 5: Right. Yeah, A lot more to it.

521
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 1: Than that, Yeah, but then you also look at you know,

522
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 1: the rise of popularity. I mean rum Das is an

523
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,719
Speaker 1: obvious one from you know, that sort of twenty to

524
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: thirty year ago period, but Tigna Hahn and Vietnam and France.

525
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 1: You know Pema Children, who's American, but you know he's

526
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: doing all of this amazing work. And they've been people

527
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: who have done such a beautiful job of translating the

528
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: practices of making them really practical for people. And I

529
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: feel like people are really looking for a way to

530
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: connect with these practices.

531
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 6: And you know, we often joke.

532
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: That like gen X's and gen z is and millennial

533
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: also this sort of generation of one to cherry pick

534
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: their spirituality in these different ways, to which I say,

535
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: go for it, Like read widely. Just know yourself, try

536
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: and understand and know yourself, know what works, be looking

537
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: for different practices, cobble together what works for you. Find

538
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: something that gives you peace and gives you agency and

539
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: helps you feel connected with yourself and feel connected with

540
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: the world.

541
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I totally endorsed that read widely. I mean I

542
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: started I get very interested in different types of philosophies

543
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 2: and religions when I was sort of seventeen eighteen. Then

544
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 2: went traveled and went and did started doing a master's

545
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 2: in social anthropology and did going on shamanism. We did

546
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 2: a whole unit on shamanism and that really sparked my interest.

547
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 2: But I think reading the different philosophical traditions, I think

548
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 2: everybody should have to do that right, just to give

549
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 2: them that bread and that understan standing of the old

550
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 2: ancient wisdom and how it can be used today. I mean,

551
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 2: one of the ones that's that's very familiar getting away

552
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 2: from mindfulness. But just in terms of philosophy is the

553
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 2: massive comeback that stoic philosophy that is actually hard on people.

554
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 2: Why it really helps people to deal with, you know,

555
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 2: challenges in life.

556
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: Well, one of the stoicism was making an enormous comeback

557
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: when I was still based in San Francisco, and one

558
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: of the big things I noticed, especially amongst the young

559
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: male developer set, was that it was really being misunderstood

560
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: and misused in that old school you know, stiff up

561
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: at smallest, Yeah, don't feel anything, squashed, it all down

562
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: if you're a stoic Marcus aureally a set and it's like, no,

563
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: that's not what he said at all.

564
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 6: It's like, that's not what we're doing. So I also

565
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 6: feel like.

566
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: Doing all of these things in community is really important

567
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: so that people can have these discussions, especially with young men.

568
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: I noticed that they are having more and more discussions

569
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: and starting to create more communities in Australia, for example,

570
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: where they're having actual conversations about Yeah, I am having

571
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: some really big feelings about this. And stoicism is about

572
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: creating space, creating agency, creating awareness, creating critical thinking.

573
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 6: There's a lot of.

574
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: Backlash against forcing people to do mindfulness, you know, like

575
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: I think you and I would both agree, like, yes,

576
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: wisdom traditions. We want people to look at this. We

577
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: want them to examine themselves. We want them to have

578
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: you know, great critical thinking and understand themselves. And I

579
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: love the idea of making all of this available to people,

580
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: and you know, to have conversations like these where we're

581
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: you know, letting people know that these kinds of explorations

582
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: can give you a lot of peace, can give you

583
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: a lot of agency, can give you tools. There are

584
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: as many tools as there are different ways to explore.

585
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: So try them out, you know, gide pig yourself a

586
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: little bit, you know, you asked before about the organizational context.

587
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: I think we start getting down a little bit of

588
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: a slippery slope when we're starting to look at, you know,

589
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: enforcing mindfulness, you know, or enforcing critical thinking. There's part

590
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: of it that's like we should enforce critically But on

591
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: the other hand, it's like you can lead horses to water,

592
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: but we can't make them drink.

593
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,959
Speaker 6: We're just making these tools available to people.

594
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: We're being kind and generous in offering to teach them,

595
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 1: and people come to these things as they come to them,

596
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: maybe early in life, might be late in life.

597
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 5: So that kind of hart is my question.

598
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 2: It is high to talk to me about the process

599
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 2: of working with organizations. So presumably the center is doing

600
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 2: pulling all of the ancient wisdom? Are they packaging it

601
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 2: up and giving tools associated with it? And then you're

602
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 2: going in and teaching these suite of tools in the

603
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 2: background and saying here's further reading.

604
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 5: Is that the way it works?

605
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there's we have some six main programs

606
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: that we're teaching, like a you know, mindfulness for wellbeing.

607
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 6: Peak performance.

608
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: We've got a you know, maintaining a mindful life. Those

609
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 1: are both programs designed and created by Professor Craig Passage

610
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: the best, but we also one of the things that

611
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: we did well it was really a market led sort

612
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: of situation. I went out and spoke to hundreds and

613
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: hundreds of organizations and you know executives and looked at

614
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: what are the key problems that you're dealing with here?

615
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: What are you trying to solve in the organization? Where

616
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: do you need support? And the answer was burnout. So

617
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: that we went and took everything that they were talking about,

618
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: looking at the key issues that they've been having with

619
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: their staff, with you know, staff turnover and issues that

620
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: people are having with managing stress. And we designed a

621
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: program based off that, which is a true kind of

622
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: market led offering.

623
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 5: I like that, Yeah, that's cool.

624
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, So we Navigating Burnout is the name of the course.

625
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 6: You can sign up to it online.

626
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 2: Right, so give our give our listeners, and I think

627
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 2: that'd be a pretty blood bloody popular course because burnout,

628
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 2: you know, it's on the rise in Australia. It's pretty

629
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 2: shocking for it. The amount of ours that we work

630
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,439
Speaker 2: here are some of the highest in OECD, and we're

631
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 2: getting big rates of burnout here. So talk us through

632
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 2: some of the elements of the program, and particularly you

633
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 2: know one or two practical tools that people can use

634
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 2: to help not get burnt out, because once you're burnt out,

635
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 2: I mean, I know all about the physiology of burnout.

636
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 5: Once you're burnt.

637
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 2: Out, it's a it's a massive hole to climb out of.

638
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 5: I'm all about prevention rather than cure.

639
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 6: Yeah one d P.

640
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: Well, I think for leaders, part of it is in

641
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 1: recognizing those behaviors in self. You know, how you drive

642
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,760
Speaker 1: in yourself? How aware are you of what you're asking

643
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: your team to do? How where are you of the

644
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 1: different ways in which your team thinks? Which I think

645
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: is also really powerful around the neurodiversity conversation. How do

646
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: the different people in your team work well? What do

647
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: they need to be supported?

648
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 6: What does that look like?

649
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: And then from a personal level, both from a leader

650
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,399
Speaker 1: side and from a team side, what do you need?

651
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 1: How well do you know yourself? You know, do you

652
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,399
Speaker 1: have practices that you need support in, you need financial

653
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 1: aid to continue with? Do the other people in your

654
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 1: office and team know what you need in order to thrive?

655
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: What does that look like? We talk a bit about

656
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 1: human flourishing, which is one of my favorite phrases, ever,

657
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 1: I think that's a beautiful, a beautiful sentiment and idea.

658
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 1: And then more broadly, it's you know, what can you control?

659
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: What can you not control? I think we talk about

660
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: those things a lot, but practically looking.

661
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 6: At how you know in any given moment.

662
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: How do you look at Okay, I can control this,

663
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 1: I can't control this? Well, now what do I do

664
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: with that? I'm still stressed about this. I'm still freaking

665
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,919
Speaker 1: out about that. So it's really a lot of exercises

666
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: around creating agency for self, about perspective taking, how to

667
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 1: slip back, how to you know, have somewherewith all around.

668
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: This isn't the be all and end all? And this

669
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: will pass, this too shall pass exactly exactly. And then

670
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 1: one of my favorite units in this program is around tech.

671
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: How do you engage with tech? How do you deal

672
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: with it? What are your boundaries, what's your like sleep hygiene,

673
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:35,280
Speaker 1: what's your tech hygiene?

674
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 5: Which you talk about enough disengaged with tech?

675
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 2: I So I run lots of workshops around peak performance,

676
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 2: and I'm all over sleep hyging, and you know, I'm

677
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 2: like sleep.

678
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 5: Is a weapon.

679
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 2: And I asked people about you know, who's got televisions

680
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 2: in your bedroom, and typically maybe ten to fifteen percent

681
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 2: of hands will go up. I'll say, who brings a

682
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 2: laptop or are a tablet into the bedroom and maybe

683
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 2: it's about to see them, And I'm like, who's got

684
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 2: a mobile phone in the bedroom? Ninety percent at least

685
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 2: of hard to drop every time, and I'm like, it's

686
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 2: my lime cluck.

687
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 5: And everybody likes.

688
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 2: And I'm like, buy a ten dollar alarm clock. You're

689
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 2: titars because that mobile phone beside the bed. People think

690
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 2: that it's doing nothing. It's a freaking attention thief. And

691
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 2: I think the research shows the default mode network is

692
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 2: more active when the mobile phone is beside the bed.

693
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 5: I don't know.

694
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 2: Craig Hassid talks about the default mode network a lot exactly.

695
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: Well, even there's another researcher group here at Monash that

696
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: looks at like your circadian rhythms and you know, even

697
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 1: having your laptop screen, your iPad or your phone screen

698
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,240
Speaker 1: at the moments when you're trying to get off to sleep,

699
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 1: what that does like the UV of that. You know,

700
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 1: we talk about those special glasses that you would use

701
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: and people think, oh, that looks too nerdy. I wouldn't

702
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,439
Speaker 1: do it. That's mucking with your sleep as well. All

703
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:02,399
Speaker 1: that attention is drawing away from you. So it's good

704
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 1: to you know. I love that this course doesn't tell

705
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: you to not use tech because I think a lot

706
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: of the time we're kind of like, oh no, I'm

707
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: not supposed to do it. It's like, it's not about guilt.

708
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: We're looking for workability in the modern age. We're looking

709
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,760
Speaker 1: for how you can engage with these things, but also

710
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: recognize that you're in charge. You're in charge of how

711
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 1: much you use it. You have agency and awareness around

712
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: how you use it and what that looks like. I

713
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: really love that, like creating real plans for yourself so

714
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: that it's you know, you are actually in charge of

715
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,720
Speaker 1: whether or not you touch that phone or not. Let's

716
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,919
Speaker 1: get more awareness there so that you are.

717
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 2: So it sounds like that this is much more than

718
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,359
Speaker 2: just the mindfulness programs, because when people hear that, right,

719
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 2: they're going, oh, they're going to come in, They're going

720
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 2: to teach me how to meditate and you know, get

721
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 2: in touch with myself.

722
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 5: But from what we've been saying, there's.

723
00:38:54,800 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 2: Lots of real practicalities about just living and working more effectively, yes.

724
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: And I think I mean, I keep saying awareness and agency,

725
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 1: but I feel like those are the two things that

726
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: we work with a lot. It's like, how do you

727
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 1: engage with yourself? How do you know what's bothering you?

728
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 1: I mean, I think in the case of burnout, the

729
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 1: number of people that we speak to and the number

730
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 1: of organizations where we'll go in, and you know, we

731
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: work a lot with emergency workers. I worked a lot

732
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 1: with emergency workers in the US my previous company. The

733
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: amount of people who are just shocked when they hit

734
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,919
Speaker 1: the wall and fall in a heap, they didn't even

735
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 1: realize that it was happening. And so the earlier we

736
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: can smell that smoke, the earlier we can get at

737
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: finding those practices like noticing, oh, my eye is twitching,

738
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: like okay, maybe that's a magnesium deficiency, or maybe you

739
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: haven't slept properly in a long time and you're nearing

740
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: an area that's dangerous for you and it's burnout and

741
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 1: you're not going to be any good to yourself or

742
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: to anyone else. How can we start to integrate these

743
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 1: practices early? How can we be more aware earlier? How

744
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: can we be looking out for each other in our teams,

745
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 1: in our organizations, in our communities.

746
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 6: In our families.

747
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: You know, you're aware of how stress your partner would

748
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: be on a scale of one to ten if you

749
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,919
Speaker 1: ask them, could they even tell you are they doing

750
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: that internal temperature take even on a daily basis, like

751
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: where are you at stress wise today? Okay? What relieves

752
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 1: that pressure valve? I often use the analogy of a

753
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: pool toy. You're like skimming on the surface of life,

754
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: and then when things get really hot, the pool toy

755
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 1: gets really tight and then you spring a leak or

756
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: a kid jumps on you and you burst, and you know,

757
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 1: you sink to the bottom of the pool. But you

758
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: have that valve on there. And the more knowledge that

759
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:51,760
Speaker 1: you have around what inflates you and what relieves that pressure,

760
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,919
Speaker 1: that's just it's so important to just day to day

761
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 1: well being, day to day equilibrium and just knowing what

762
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 1: one of the lavers.

763
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 6: That you need to pull.

764
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: It is different for all of us. Someone like you know,

765
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: having a donut. It might be the thing for someone else.

766
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 1: It's a massage. For someone else, it's a walk, it's

767
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: a surf, it's a you know, really understanding what the

768
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: things are that relieve that pressure for you and help

769
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 1: inflate you again get you back on track.

770
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 2: I think that self awareness piece is really huge. There

771
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 2: are so many people who are just sleepwalking through life,

772
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 2: and they're sleepwalking towards burnout.

773
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 5: And I see it.

774
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 2: All the time in the work that I do that

775
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 2: there's people who are really high achievers who are just

776
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 2: they're running so hot. You know, they are running like

777
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 2: a Formula one racing car. The rev counter is just

778
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 2: so high, and because they've been doing it for so long,

779
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 2: they just it becomes normal, right, And humans will adapt

780
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,800
Speaker 2: to that and you'll think that this is okay because

781
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 2: this is just the way that it's been. And I

782
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 2: always say to people, if you go on holidays and

783
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 2: you get sick routinely at the start of the holiday,

784
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 2: that's a big.

785
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 5: Warning saying that you're running too.

786
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 2: Hot, right, And you know, you ask them how long

787
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,359
Speaker 2: there's a Formula one engine last Not very long at

788
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 2: all because it's running at such high revs.

789
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 5: But yeah, that self awareness piece is really really critical.

790
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 5: So are there any particular tools that you use for

791
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 5: people around that self awareness or is it more just

792
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 5: of an education processor kind of a mix of those things.

793
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean again, I think it is about having

794
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 1: you know, as broad a toolkit as possible so that

795
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 1: you can be trying things out for yourself.

796
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 6: You know.

797
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,399
Speaker 1: One of the big things we talk about will be

798
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 1: things like caffeine and alcohol. You know, Like I'll notice,

799
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: for example, if i don't get enough sleep, then the

800
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,760
Speaker 1: next morning, I'll want to have a bit of extra coffee.

801
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 1: And then because I've had a bit of extra coffee

802
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 1: I'll find it harder to wind down at.

803
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:55,399
Speaker 6: The end of the day.

804
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 1: So mine having an extra glass of wine. Then my

805
00:42:58,000 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: sleep is disturbed.

806
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,839
Speaker 2: Then you're levels go up. Then you tend to eat

807
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 2: more shit food, right, You're less likely the exercise has.

808
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 6: Been more alcohol.

809
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: So you start to see how the levers work in

810
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,800
Speaker 1: tene with each other as well. Again, that's my particular poison,

811
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: you know. So if I'm coming into a period of

812
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 1: considerable stress, the first thing I'll do is stop drinking alcohol.

813
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 1: That's just like one of the first things, Like I

814
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: know it's going to be a really full on time.

815
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 1: Not a huge drinker anyway, but it just means like

816
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: just don't drink for a few weeks while we're going

817
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: through this period, it means less alcohol, means more sleep

818
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: and less caffeine. As a lever, you know the other

819
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 1: things from a very basic level, get better at sitting

820
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 1: with yourself and you know, I know I was talking

821
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: before about PTSD contra indications and trauma, you know, contraindications.

822
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: But it could just look like just writing a few

823
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,840
Speaker 1: lines down. I think of it as data, like internal

824
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 1: data from the CPU, like we're really looking at like

825
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: where are you at today? Are you tired? Are you excited?

826
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,280
Speaker 1: Are you over stimulated? Just giving yourself a little score,

827
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: So just writing a little paragraph about where you're at

828
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: for the day. It's just a good check in process.

829
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 2: But it's like it's self awareness driving, isn't it. Whether

830
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 2: it's journaling or doing some sort of a checklist, it's like, oh,

831
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 2: actually am I feeling? Because often people just bundle through.

832
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 1: With lotus Yeah, And then you know, I think the

833
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: other part of it is, you know, adding to that

834
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 1: mindfulness practice, whether that's listening to a guided meditation, doing

835
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 1: a walking meditation, doing a more formal sit where you're

836
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: just looking at yourself and then writing, you know, how

837
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 1: do I feel after that? What have I noticed?

838
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 6: Happens?

839
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 1: There and then the other kind of It's not hack,

840
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: I suppose, but one of the really lovely ways to

841
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 1: engage with this in a physical sense, and I've I've

842
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 1: found a lot of power in these physical movements is

843
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,959
Speaker 1: breath techniques. So you don't have to go into full

844
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 1: like capalla varati skull shining breath kind of you know, extremes,

845
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 1: or even wim howk kind of extremes. You could literally

846
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 1: just do box breathing. You could breathe in for four

847
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:07,760
Speaker 1: and then out for six.

848
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 5: I'm a big fan.

849
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 6: That's my favorite.

850
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 2: Yeaheah, yeah, And I much prefer that because when you're breathing,

851
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 2: your spathetic nervous system temporarily of regulate.

852
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 5: It's the breath.

853
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:28,359
Speaker 2: If you've asked me about breastwork ten or fifteen years ago,

854
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,720
Speaker 2: I have said it's fluffy bullshit turned by the crystal

855
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 2: waving brigade.

856
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 5: But now I am. I'm a crystal waiver right now.

857
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 5: I'm so yeah, that's all over breathwork.

858
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 2: I actually think that breath control is an absolutely fundamental

859
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 2: tool for both well being and for peak performance, and

860
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 2: elite cleats use it. Special forces guys use it, and

861
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 2: they don't do shit, right, they do stuff that.

862
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: Has well, like opera singers. I mean I come from

863
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: a singing background. Like even recognizing before I go on stage,

864
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: I'm still a bit of a nervous speaker, you know,

865
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: like doing public speaking and things like that, I get nervous.

866
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 1: I was a bit nervous to talk to you, you know.

867
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 1: And you just learn to be able to regulate your

868
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 1: breath and regulate yourself internally. It's actually very very powerful technique.

869
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 2: And actually awareness of breath as well. I think the

870
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 2: more breath what you do, the more you start to

871
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 2: become more over. And then people will start to notice

872
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,879
Speaker 2: that when they're stressed, they might shallow breath, they might

873
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 2: hold their breath.

874
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 5: Right, A lot of people will.

875
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 2: Hold their breath whenever they're stressed, and that's shitn't good

876
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 2: for your physiology, right.

877
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 1: But the amount of times that you go into a

878
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: workshop and I'll just do a little bit of breath work,

879
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: and you often say to someone you know, is this

880
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 1: the first breath you've taken? To Danye, you just see

881
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: them go oo, Like, just the relief on people's we

882
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 1: don't know, we're just trying to get through. I mean,

883
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 1: let's be honest, especially since lockdowns, especially in Melbourne one

884
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: based like we've had a few pretty rough years, you know,

885
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:11,240
Speaker 1: and I think, yes, we're getting by, and it's time

886
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 1: to look more at a flourishing time, a thriving time,

887
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: than just surviving. And I want to be a part

888
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: of that. I want to be a part of helping

889
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: people move more into that state of more awareness, you know,

890
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:27,879
Speaker 1: asking for what they need and creating the circumstances the organizations,

891
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 1: the communities that really nourish and support humans to be

892
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,800
Speaker 1: their best. And that doesn't look like, you know, revving

893
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 1: out these Formula one engines. It looks like having a

894
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,720
Speaker 1: balanced and healthy and integrated life.

895
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 5: Yeah.

896
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,720
Speaker 2: Absolutely, touche Megan. Now I know you've got to run

897
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,319
Speaker 2: because you got something to go too, but thank you

898
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 2: for sharing all of that. And so where can people

899
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 2: go to learn more about what the center does and

900
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 2: if they want to bring them into the workplace or

901
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 2: do the online programs to things, and then you personally

902
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 2: if they want to book you for as a speaker

903
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,400
Speaker 2: or follow you on socials.

904
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's it is the Monash Center for Consciousness

905
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 1: and Contemplative Studies. So if you just search Monash M

906
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 1: three cs. That's usually the easiest way to find it.

907
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: You can also look up Monash Training for Humanity. You

908
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 1: can find me at Meganflamer dot com. I also write

909
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 1: a little substack newsletter which is a bit of fun.

910
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 1: It's really me looking at what happens when I pull

911
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: these levers on myself.

912
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 6: So it's sort of my guinea pig newsletter.

913
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 1: So that's at Substack, and it's just called Excited Adult

914
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 1: because that I feel like that's why I'm alive, to

915
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 1: discover why adults maintain excitement when they get older. Yeah,

916
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 1: and you can find me on like Instagram, Twitter and

917
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: things like that. Are we still using Twitter?

918
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 6: I don't know. I have ab checked it, but.

919
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 1: Certainly always up for a chat about mindfulness and wisdom

920
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 1: and contemplation.

921
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 6: You know, I think that's why we're here to understand that.

922
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 5: Megan, thank you for sharing your wisdom and your contemplation.

923
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 5: Thank you for the unexpected little.

924
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 2: Little rabbit hole into the world of ayahuasca and other

925
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 2: shamanic modalities.

926
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 6: It was very far oh, very very fun. Paul, thanks

927
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 6: so much.

928
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:19,919
Speaker 5: A good time