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Speaker 1: The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives

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Speaker 1: see a side of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For

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Speaker 1: 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what

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Speaker 1: I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.

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Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking

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Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The

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Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from

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Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,

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Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the

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Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one

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Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join

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Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. Today

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Speaker 1: we're diving into the world of police dogs with former

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Speaker 1: Queensland Police Sergeant David Raymond. you're going to be blown

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Speaker 1: away by the frightening and sometimes funny adventures he and

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Speaker 1: his trusty off-siders got up to. You'll hear about Vader,

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Speaker 1: one of the most highly decorated police dogs in the country,

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Speaker 1: with a staggering number of arrests to his name. I

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Speaker 1: hope you enjoy this chat as much as I did.

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Speaker 1: You won't believe what this dog got up to. David Brayman,

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Speaker 1: welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks so much, Gary.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's good to have you on. And I am

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Speaker 1: very excited about the conversations we're going to have about

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Speaker 1: you and your adventures with your super dog, Vader. Looking

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Speaker 1: back at my policing career, I always thought that you

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Speaker 1: dog handlers were the guys who were at the front

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Speaker 1: end of where all the action was. When things were

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Speaker 1: going down, it was, let's get the dogs in. And

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Speaker 1: it's one thing to send your dog in, but invariably

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Speaker 1: they're on a leash attached to yourself and you find

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Speaker 1: yourself in the thick of it as well.

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Speaker 2: That's right. And that was very evident when you had

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Speaker 2: to jump about 20 fences and the dog just scaled

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Speaker 2: over the top of them. And of course, you had

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Speaker 2: to hold the dog back. And once he was over there,

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Speaker 2: you had to try and scramble yourself over. So that

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Speaker 2: was when it was really evident you're on the end

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Speaker 2: of a dog.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, we're going to talk about a few dogs,

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Speaker 1: but we're going to concentrate on Vader, who managed to

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Speaker 1: have a book written about him, Vader, A Police Dog Story,

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Speaker 1: which is a cracker of a read. But before you

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Speaker 1: had Vader, you had another dog, Zed, that had some

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Speaker 1: good qualities, but didn't quite live up to the expectations

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Speaker 1: of a police dog. And I think that bore out

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Speaker 1: a when someone was attacking you and you're literally fighting

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Speaker 1: for your life after you've been hit across the head

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Speaker 1: with a lump of timber and poor old Zed thought

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Speaker 1: it was a game. Do you want to tell us

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Speaker 1: about that one? Exactly.

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Speaker 2: Well, Zed was my second dog. I had a dog

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Speaker 2: before that called Buddy, but I took Zed on after

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Speaker 2: that and Zed and I got called to a job

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Speaker 2: one day and it wouldn't be, if it wasn't so serious,

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Speaker 2: it'd probably be funny. But so Zed and I got

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Speaker 2: called to a job that was an offender had run

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Speaker 2: up the creek line of a suburban area in Cairns.

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Speaker 2: I got on a track. We followed it up. We

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Speaker 2: followed it for about a kilometre or so. And then

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Speaker 2: we came to this big steep and bank which is

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Speaker 2: about three metres either side. And we managed to scramble

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Speaker 2: up there. And once we got to the top there,

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Speaker 2: we saw this person come out from my trip about

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Speaker 2: 30 metres away. I did the usual thing which we

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Speaker 2: have to do. The commands is police with the police

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Speaker 2: dog stop or you'll get bitten. The usual type of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Get on the ground and He decided to take a

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Speaker 2: separate course of action and off he ran. So Zed

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Speaker 2: and I got back on the track. We jumped through

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Speaker 2: a few fences because there were yards on top of

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Speaker 2: this three-meter embankment. I jumped through a few fences. I

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Speaker 2: then saw the offender run around a fence line and

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Speaker 2: I decided it was time to send Zed in to

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Speaker 2: take him down. So I unhooked the line, keeping in

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Speaker 2: mind he was on line at this time. We were tracking.

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Speaker 2: He ran around this fence line. I saw the offender

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Speaker 2: run around the fence line. Zed followed. I followed that

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Speaker 2: a few minutes later. And just as I came around

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Speaker 2: the fence line, I got smacked in the head with

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Speaker 2: a big piece of a fence parting that cracked across

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Speaker 2: my face and smashed my nose, split my eye, did

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Speaker 2: a few serious injuries to me, knocked me to the ground,

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Speaker 2: but did knock me out luckily. But the funny thing

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Speaker 2: about it is when the stick shattered, my dog thought

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Speaker 2: he was in doggy heaven because he was running around

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Speaker 2: picking up the sticks and bringing them back to me

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Speaker 2: while I was lying on the ground, bleeding profusely with

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Speaker 2: an offender on top of me trying to wrestle me. So,

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Speaker 2: He thought it was a great time. It was not

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Speaker 2: a great time. Every time he'd come back, he thought

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Speaker 2: we were playing. He'd run, he'd do a little crouch,

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Speaker 2: like they do a little crouch down and run and

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Speaker 2: get another stick and bring it back to me. So

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Speaker 2: if I could have shot him, I probably reached down

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Speaker 2: and got me far on, but he knew what type

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Speaker 2: of shot I was. So he knew it was pretty safe.

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Speaker 2: So not the best shot in the world.

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Speaker 1: So I can imagine why you'd be a little bit

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Speaker 1: pissed off of your partner, Zed, on that one, why

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Speaker 1: you're literally fighting for your life. And- He's thinking there's

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Speaker 1: a game going on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny, but even though he was, I was

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Speaker 2: disappointed in the role he played, or the role he

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Speaker 2: didn't play, I should say, is he, at the end

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Speaker 2: of it all, so how it ended up is I

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Speaker 2: rolled down this embankment with this offender. I managed to

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Speaker 2: get him in a headlock, and Zed followed us down,

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Speaker 2: of course, still playing, thinking we were playing, and I

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Speaker 2: managed to get the offender in a headlock. He was

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Speaker 2: facing towards me. I had him in a headlock this way,

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Speaker 2: or I don't know, what we call, well, we're not

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Speaker 2: allowed to call a choker hold because that's a bad thing,

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Speaker 2: you know, like I'm fighting for my life, so I'll

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Speaker 2: be called whatever I want. And I reached there and

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Speaker 2: got my capsicum spray and put it in front of

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Speaker 2: his face and I pulled the trigger and of course

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Speaker 2: he moved. So I copped the full brunt of the spray.

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Speaker 2: So I took him to the ground. Not only was

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Speaker 2: I bleeding, not only was I had a police dog

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Speaker 2: running around being stupid, but also had a face full

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Speaker 2: of capsicum spray now. But as luck would have it,

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Speaker 2: and the dog was obviously just playing a game, but

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Speaker 2: as luck would have it, One of those yards we

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Speaker 2: ran through was an off-duty police officer and he saw

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Speaker 2: it unfolding. So he ran down and saw me struggling

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Speaker 2: with this bloke and gave me a bit of a

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Speaker 2: hand and we managed to get him into custody. I

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Speaker 2: remember lying there at the end, covered in blood, covered

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Speaker 2: in capsicum spray and lying beside a naked man, not

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Speaker 2: wanting to, but the circumstances were not my greatest moment.

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Speaker 2: And Zed came over and gave me a big lick

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Speaker 2: on the face. He knew I was angry at him,

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Speaker 2: but he He tended to just, you know, knew the

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Speaker 2: feeling was there, but he's looking at me with sympathy saying,

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Speaker 2: what was I supposed to do, you know? So, yeah,

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Speaker 2: so that was, unfortunately, that was the end of Zed's

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Speaker 2: policing career. He came to live with us for the

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Speaker 2: next 10 years at home. So it was nice.

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Speaker 1: How did you break it to him that he's just

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Speaker 1: not measuring up?

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Speaker 2: Straight back in the car, took him straight home, said,

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Speaker 2: get in the kennel there and off you go. I'm

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Speaker 2: out of here. I've got a new dog. And it's

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Speaker 2: funny with the police. You don't have time, even if

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Speaker 2: your dog dies, you don't have time to mourn or

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Speaker 2: anything like that. You know, your dog dies on a Friday. Monday,

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Speaker 2: you're down there getting another dog. So, yeah. But he

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Speaker 2: loved it with the kids. He had a great time

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Speaker 2: with the kids here for the next 10 years or so.

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Speaker 1: Out with the old, in with the new.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and this is where policing gives you all

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Speaker 1: sorts of experiences. I've had the experience of wrestling with

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Speaker 1: a naked man, which is when the fight's on, you're

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Speaker 1: not too worried about what the person's wearing. I chased

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Speaker 1: him for about two kilometres before I caught him, but

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Speaker 1: eventually got him. And I was working at the time.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: Police dogs and personalities. I reflect on early days in

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Speaker 1: criminal investigation where there was a notorious pub that had

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Speaker 1: a lot of bikies there and we were going to

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Speaker 1: make an impact and go in there and we were

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Speaker 1: going in there with a police dog that could detect drugs.

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Speaker 1: different things. So we go into the public bar, make

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Speaker 1: a big entrance with the police dog that's looking tough

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Speaker 1: at this stage. And he's walking around the pool tables

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Speaker 1: and carrying on. Then someone decided to give him some bread.

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Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden, the police dog didn't

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Speaker 1: look that ferocious. He was just walking around to the bike.

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Speaker 1: He's looking for who else had some bread to feed him.

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Speaker 1: So Yeah, it doesn't always work out, does it?

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Speaker 2: The dog's name wasn't Red, was it, by any chance?

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Speaker 1: We might have got rid of him from New South

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Speaker 1: Wales to Queensland. But yeah, it's funny, the personalities of

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Speaker 1: the different dogs. But I suppose it's like working with cops,

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Speaker 1: even the ones with two legs. They've all got different

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Speaker 1: personalities and different qualities.

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Speaker 2: And it's amazing because I had the five dogs and

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Speaker 2: every single one had a different personality, different traits, everything

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Speaker 2: so different. And that was one of the hard parts

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Speaker 2: of being in the dog squad is you were just

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Speaker 2: so used to your dog, especially if you had him

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Speaker 2: for four or five years or six years, whatever it was.

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Speaker 2: And as soon as you go to a new dog,

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Speaker 2: he tracks differently, he does, he bites differently, he has

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Speaker 2: different affections towards people. And it's really difficult to hit

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Speaker 2: around that, you know, just go back to the old way.

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Speaker 2: I just want to go back to the old one.

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Speaker 2: You know what I mean? And that, that might be

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Speaker 2: something to do with age as well, you know? So yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And the dogs have reputations within the police force too,

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Speaker 1: don't they? Like everyone knows, oh, this dog, we want

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Speaker 1: this dog coming out because this dog knows how to

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Speaker 1: handle himself or, uh, yeah, it's, it's funny how the

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Speaker 1: reputations carry or don't get in front of this dog. You'll,

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Speaker 1: you'll get bitten yourself and all sorts of things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and there have been a few police officers bitten

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Speaker 2: over the years, of course, you know, and they tend

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Speaker 2: to stay away from the thing. I mean, there is

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Speaker 2: a saying going around that you don't know scared until

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Speaker 2: you walk past a police dog van and the dog

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Speaker 2: goes off. I had an old drunk who used to

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Speaker 2: come to me every single– I'd be sitting on the

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Speaker 2: side of the road with the police dog van and

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Speaker 2: this drunk would come past me and he'd look in

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Speaker 2: the window and he says, Hey, sir, give me a

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Speaker 2: lift down to the center for me. I said, yeah, mate,

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Speaker 2: hop in the back. And he'd go back and he'd

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Speaker 2: lift up the back and the dog would go off

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Speaker 2: his head. And he'd come back to me, look in

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Speaker 2: the side room and go, Sarge you got me again

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Speaker 2: Sarge you got me again you know so I got

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Speaker 2: him every week you know but but it was yeah

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Speaker 2: it used to go off his head so yeah.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna get in hey uh what uh what drove

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Speaker 1: you to join in the police what was it something

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Speaker 1: you always had in mind.

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Speaker 2: Or ever since I was ever since I was a

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Speaker 2: little kid I wanted to I remember coming home mum

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Speaker 2: used to bring we used to get groceries back in

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Speaker 2: the day and cardboard boxes mum would bring the box

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Speaker 2: home and I'd ride on the side of that thing

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Speaker 2: a police and You know, we used to spell it differently, but,

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Speaker 2: you know, as a three- and four-year-old, I used to

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Speaker 2: put the big police on and push myself and imagine

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Speaker 2: I was a police officer. And I decided from then

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Speaker 2: that that's what I wanted to do. And I lived

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Speaker 2: out my dream basically going there. I was actually a

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Speaker 2: bookbinder by trade, believe it or not. So that was

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Speaker 2: my trade. I did an apprenticeship as a bookbinder.

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Speaker 1: That's an interesting trade to go from bookbinding to policing.

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Speaker 2: Very much so. In those days, it was like mum

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Speaker 2: and dad, you'd say to mum and dad, you didn't

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Speaker 2: want to go on to grade 12. And they would say, well,

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Speaker 2: go out and get an apprenticeship. And just went out

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Speaker 2: and got an apprenticeship. And I happened to do the

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Speaker 2: bookbinding apprenticeship.

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Speaker 1: How old were you when you joined the cops?

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Speaker 2: I was 23. And when I first went in there,

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Speaker 2: I was 18 or 19. And like yourself, I used

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Speaker 2: to do a lot, well, I still do a lot

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Speaker 2: of martial arts, but I And I was doing a

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Speaker 2: lot of fighting in the ring and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: And I was 59 kilos and six foot tall. And

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Speaker 2: that's why I was winning all the time because I

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Speaker 2: was fighting with blokes half my height. So I'd get

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Speaker 2: the head kicks up there back in those days. But

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Speaker 2: I went into the police three times. I tried and

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Speaker 2: I got knocked back three times for size and weight,

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Speaker 2: believe it or not. I couldn't expand my chest to

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Speaker 2: 95 centimeters, which was one thing we had to do.

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Speaker 2: My height wasn't proportioned to my weight. And so I

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Speaker 2: just kept knocking back irrespective of the you know the

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Speaker 2: 20 years of martial arts behind the 15 years martial

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Speaker 2: arts behind me and stuff like that the size and

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Speaker 2: weight was such an important thing and uh and how

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Speaker 2: things have changed i mean could you imagine doing that these.

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Speaker 1: Days yeah no it definitely has changed but they didn't

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Speaker 1: quite understand being fit and lean didn't uh necessarily mean

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Speaker 1: you weren't uh weren't ready for the job so exactly

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Speaker 1: you uh you obviously uh got in um where the

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Speaker 1: where did you first start working.

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Speaker 2: I went through the prison system first, so I thought

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Speaker 2: if I can't get around through the size and weight thing,

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Speaker 2: eventually what they did was they had the Fitzgerald inquiry

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Speaker 2: up here, of course, and they decided they were going

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Speaker 2: to get rid of all the size and weight, male, female,

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Speaker 2: that type of stuff, and they were just going to

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Speaker 2: take basically the best applicant for the job, so it

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Speaker 2: didn't matter what size you were. But they also wanted education.

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Speaker 2: The thing is that what they did was they got

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Speaker 2: rid of the size and weight expectations first, and then

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Speaker 2: they went across and brought in the education. So I

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Speaker 2: slipped in between those because I had grade 10 education,

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Speaker 2: so there was no way in the world I was

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Speaker 2: going to get in.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So I managed to slip in then. And so in 1989, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I left Townsville to go to the Police Academy in Brisbane.

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Speaker 1: And how did you find your first couple of years

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Speaker 1: in policing? Did it feel like the right mix for

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Speaker 1: you in general duties?

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Speaker 2: I was a bit of a shock when I went

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Speaker 2: through the academy. I was not expecting so disciplinarian education.

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Speaker 2: You know, almost like you see it on the movies

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Speaker 2: where they shout in your face and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: I don't know whether it's the same these days. I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure whether they're allowed to get away with it. But,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's like 6 o'clock, 6 a.m. room inspections

292
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Speaker 2: and you could never get anything right and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: Is it bullying these days? I'll tell you what, maybe

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Speaker 2: you might like to call it bullying, but I'll tell

295
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Speaker 2: you what, it shaped me up. You know, it really

296
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Speaker 2: sorted me out. Every shirt was ironed and, you know,

297
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Speaker 2: everything was neat and tidy. Yeah. If you saw this room,

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Speaker 2: you'd see I'd lapse.

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Speaker 1: No, I know what you're saying. And the discipline that

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Speaker 1: they brought in in the academy, when I went through

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Speaker 1: the academy, it was very much like that. A lot

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Speaker 1: of discipline and room inspections, your shoes inspected, your ironing,

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Speaker 1: how you make your bed, all that. And it seemed

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Speaker 1: like a pain in the ass at the time. You

305
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Speaker 1: look back and it was a bit of fun. What

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Speaker 1: was the challenges early in your policing career when you're

307
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Speaker 1: out on the street? Did the type of training that

308
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Speaker 1: you got prepare you for it or was it a

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Speaker 1: matter of learning? You weren't learning your skills and trade

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Speaker 1: out in the real world.

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Speaker 2: I came in, as I say, I came in just

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Speaker 2: after the Fitzgerald inquiry. So actually the recommendations hadn't been

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Speaker 2: sent out, but they hadn't actually been instigated, if that

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Speaker 2: makes sense. We had to sit through a two-day course

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Speaker 2: a couple of years into my service. So the feeling

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Speaker 2: towards police from the general public was terrible because we

317
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Speaker 2: didn't deal much with decent people. We mostly dealt with

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Speaker 2: the grubs of society. And so every time we pulled

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Speaker 2: someone up, it'd be, oh, another corrupt cop, you know,

320
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Speaker 2: that type of stuff. So that was really difficult.

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Speaker 1: Just to put that in the context, David, the Fitzgerald

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Speaker 1: inquiry was an inquiry in the Queensland police corruption and

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Speaker 1: exposed a lot of corruption. So we had, and I

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Speaker 1: think most states have had those inquiries that... And you

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Speaker 1: feel the resentment from the public after those inquiries when

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Speaker 1: the corruption has been exposed and the public, that's the

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Speaker 1: go-to position. Oh, you're a corrupt detective, you're a corrupt cop,

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Speaker 1: that type of thing. So I understand what you're talking

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Speaker 1: about there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. And it was a shame. And we get

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Speaker 2: into trouble if we profile certain people, certain groups, whatever

332
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Speaker 2: it is, but Then everybody profiles the police as everyone's corrupt,

333
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Speaker 2: you know, which is far, far, far from the truth.

334
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Speaker 2: Most people I know, most of the coppers out there,

335
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Speaker 2: especially the young ones these days, are so well-educated and

336
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Speaker 2: their whole life, and they could be getting better money

337
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Speaker 2: out doing what they're doing, their degrees, but they're in

338
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Speaker 2: there because they want to help people. They want to

339
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Speaker 2: make a difference. And that's where the problem is. You know,

340
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Speaker 2: the public don't understand that we are, one, we're just people.

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Speaker 2: And I do hate that term because everybody says, oh,

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Speaker 2: it shows they're human. Well, of course we're bloody human,

343
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Speaker 2: you know. Um, it's, uh, it's just that we want

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Speaker 2: to go. And, and when I'd come home from, from

345
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Speaker 2: a shift, I'd just switch off. I wouldn't be a

346
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Speaker 2: policeman anymore. And I'd often get people saying, uh, they'd

347
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Speaker 2: complain to me and say, oh, bloody coppers, you know, blah, blah, blah.

348
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Speaker 2: And I'd say, hey, to my mate, I'd say, hey,

349
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Speaker 2: I'm a copper. He'd say, no, no, no, you're Dave.

350
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Speaker 2: And I'd go, well, I'm still a copper. You know,

351
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Speaker 2: they can't, you know, it's just, it's a, it's a

352
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Speaker 2: funny situation. But, um, so in answer to your question, um, Yes,

353
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Speaker 2: I did find it a little bit difficult. I was

354
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Speaker 2: very young as well. So I was only 23 and

355
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Speaker 2: I looked 18, maybe if that. So it was really

356
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Speaker 2: difficult going to domestic situations. I remember my first job though.

357
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Speaker 2: My first job was like a poster to Cairns. My

358
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Speaker 2: first job was to stand on the corner of one

359
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Speaker 2: of the streets in one of the city streets in

360
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Speaker 2: Cairns and write tickets out to people on the don't

361
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Speaker 2: walk sign. So here I was writing. I made the

362
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Speaker 2: newspaper there and I thought I was proud as anything.

363
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Speaker 2: And I still got the newspaper clipping, but it's right

364
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Speaker 2: at the back of the book now. don't bring that

365
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Speaker 2: anymore but this is what the sergeant he looked at

366
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Speaker 2: me he said get out there write some tickets yeah

367
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Speaker 2: right oh i'm off my way so um so i

368
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Speaker 2: apologize to those people out there who might have got

369
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Speaker 2: a ticket from me 38 years.

370
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Speaker 1: Ago incredible investigative work there david how you spotted that

371
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Speaker 1: that's that's something you should be very very proud of

372
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Speaker 1: very proud of my first arrest was failed to pay

373
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Speaker 1: on the train and uh that was i i arrested

374
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Speaker 1: this uh i arrested this bloke i was so naive

375
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Speaker 1: and it's in the first couple of weeks and uh

376
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Speaker 1: He jumped the barrier of the railway station and I

377
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Speaker 1: arrested him. And I didn't know you could actually or

378
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Speaker 1: you should have perhaps given him a summons, just a

379
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Speaker 1: ticket to a fine.

380
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:03,990
Speaker 2: Been there, done that. Been there, done that, yeah.

381
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Speaker 1: But I arrested him and I brought him back to

382
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Speaker 1: the police station and I didn't know he was a

383
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Speaker 1: bad local crook in the area. All the old cops

384
00:17:11,910 --> 00:17:15,090
Speaker 1: thought I was playing hardball, but look, this Jubilant, he's

385
00:17:15,150 --> 00:17:19,280
Speaker 1: arrested this bloke just for evade fare. He's playing hardball

386
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Speaker 1: with this. I had no idea. I had no idea.

387
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Speaker 1: I just stuffed up, but it played out that people

388
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Speaker 1: thought I was being a hard-ass cop. I was just

389
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Speaker 1: a stupid cop that didn't know what the powers were.

390
00:17:31,109 --> 00:17:33,729
Speaker 1: Other work that you did before you steered, because how

391
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Speaker 1: long did you spend in the cops all up?

392
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Speaker 2: 36 years, so 89 through to 36 and a half.

393
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Speaker 1: And 26 of those were in the dog squad?

394
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Speaker 2: 26 were in the dog squad, that's right, yeah. So

395
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Speaker 2: I did general duties policing. I dabbled a little bit

396
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Speaker 2: in plainclothes, you know, a few months here, a few

397
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Speaker 2: months there. Went out to all the, as you know,

398
00:17:55,190 --> 00:17:59,030
Speaker 2: the missions, the communities up north, did a fair little

399
00:17:59,050 --> 00:18:01,250
Speaker 2: bit of work up there at times. I remember the

400
00:18:01,290 --> 00:18:03,590
Speaker 2: day I got sworn in, the day I got through

401
00:18:03,609 --> 00:18:06,370
Speaker 2: my first year constable thing which we didn't have back

402
00:18:06,390 --> 00:18:08,530
Speaker 2: then once you once you got through your training i

403
00:18:08,550 --> 00:18:12,100
Speaker 2: flew up to lockhart river which is a community up

404
00:18:12,180 --> 00:18:15,920
Speaker 2: north indigenous community and i was going up there leaving

405
00:18:15,940 --> 00:18:17,879
Speaker 2: there was a sergeant and a senior constable there at

406
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Speaker 2: that time i was a chronic constable back then and

407
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,179
Speaker 2: i remember the plane landing and the sergeant walking out

408
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,179
Speaker 2: to me throwing me the keys to the um to

409
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:25,600
Speaker 2: the troop carrier and said there's the keys to the

410
00:18:25,619 --> 00:18:28,040
Speaker 2: station he says i've got two weeks out i went

411
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Speaker 2: what and he goes yeah yeah you'll be right i.

412
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Speaker 1: Had no idea that that's your handover Yeah, yeah.

413
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,400
Speaker 2: That was my, and I'm going, what? And I had

414
00:18:36,420 --> 00:18:38,399
Speaker 2: never been to a community like this in my life.

415
00:18:38,420 --> 00:18:40,600
Speaker 2: I remember the first night lying under the bed with

416
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Speaker 2: people knocking on my door going, hey, Sarge, hey, Sarge.

417
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Speaker 2: And I was just absolutely shitting myself.

418
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Speaker 1: Had no idea.

419
00:18:46,780 --> 00:18:49,590
Speaker 2: No idea what I was doing. But eventually I became

420
00:18:49,609 --> 00:18:52,149
Speaker 2: really friends with the community, started playing rugby league with

421
00:18:52,170 --> 00:18:54,090
Speaker 2: them up there and stuff like that. So, yeah, it

422
00:18:54,109 --> 00:18:55,050
Speaker 2: turned out really well in the end.

423
00:18:55,810 --> 00:19:00,020
Speaker 1: I think that's so important, policing in Indigenous communities. And

424
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Speaker 1: certainly in Queensland and far north Queensland, there's some very

425
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Speaker 1: remote communities. But socialising with the community, letting the community

426
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:13,560
Speaker 1: members know that you're human, getting to understand their ways,

427
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:14,720
Speaker 1: it's crucial, isn't it?

428
00:19:15,260 --> 00:19:17,689
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely. I often look at the riots that they

429
00:19:17,710 --> 00:19:21,330
Speaker 2: had in Cronulla and places like that, and I go, yep, okay,

430
00:19:21,630 --> 00:19:24,670
Speaker 2: they made the news. But some of those places up there,

431
00:19:25,230 --> 00:19:28,649
Speaker 2: It's that every week. And it's almost like out of sight,

432
00:19:28,869 --> 00:19:33,020
Speaker 2: out of mind. You know, they just worry it's there,

433
00:19:33,100 --> 00:19:34,820
Speaker 2: it'll throw money at it and just let it sort

434
00:19:34,859 --> 00:19:38,260
Speaker 2: itself out. Whereas it's not that easy.

435
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,680
Speaker 1: It's a complex situation. But that would have been a

436
00:19:40,700 --> 00:19:45,070
Speaker 1: good experience for you, working within communities like that. That

437
00:19:45,109 --> 00:19:47,869
Speaker 1: would have changed your view and outlook on life a

438
00:19:47,910 --> 00:19:49,430
Speaker 1: little bit, I would imagine. Absolutely.

439
00:19:49,510 --> 00:19:52,060
Speaker 2: Absolutely. It's like just getting on the trail bike and

440
00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:55,619
Speaker 2: riding up the beaches and sharing things like turtle and

441
00:19:55,640 --> 00:20:00,500
Speaker 2: dugong with the locals. It was just those little things.

442
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:02,240
Speaker 2: Because once you got to know them and they started

443
00:20:02,260 --> 00:20:04,400
Speaker 2: to trust you a little bit, it was a different life.

444
00:20:04,460 --> 00:20:07,189
Speaker 2: It was very, very good. The most important thing up

445
00:20:07,210 --> 00:20:09,070
Speaker 2: there is you use those community police that are able

446
00:20:09,090 --> 00:20:12,890
Speaker 2: to go around and they know everybody and they take

447
00:20:12,930 --> 00:20:15,190
Speaker 2: a bit of a risk to being community police because

448
00:20:15,940 --> 00:20:19,639
Speaker 2: the feeling towards police is very negative anyway. And then

449
00:20:19,660 --> 00:20:20,800
Speaker 2: you've got these people who are helping out.

450
00:20:21,369 --> 00:20:23,730
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time working in different communities

451
00:20:23,790 --> 00:20:26,230
Speaker 1: and understanding, okay, well, what works in the city is

452
00:20:26,250 --> 00:20:28,770
Speaker 1: not going to work here. And once you change your thinking,

453
00:20:29,830 --> 00:20:34,190
Speaker 1: you can make some progress. For sure, yeah. Those type

454
00:20:34,230 --> 00:20:38,389
Speaker 1: of experiences, you wouldn't pass them up. And what steered

455
00:20:38,410 --> 00:20:41,390
Speaker 1: you to police dogs? What was your passion for that work?

456
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,960
Speaker 2: Well, I was, as I say, did 10 years general duties.

457
00:20:44,980 --> 00:20:48,560
Speaker 2: I was also part-time what they call CERTI, or prior

458
00:20:48,580 --> 00:20:53,140
Speaker 2: to CERTI was Tactical Response Group. killed someone or injured someone,

459
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,119
Speaker 2: then we went to SWAS and then they changed it all.

460
00:20:56,180 --> 00:20:57,859
Speaker 2: And then we went to, they decided they're going to

461
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 2: bring in a full-time unit. Well, in fact, it was

462
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:06,209
Speaker 2: seven full-time members and 14 part-time members. I was part of,

463
00:21:06,369 --> 00:21:08,669
Speaker 2: as I say, so SWAS, I just went to the

464
00:21:08,810 --> 00:21:10,650
Speaker 2: three-day course, which is probably one of the hardest things

465
00:21:10,670 --> 00:21:13,750
Speaker 2: in my life. And I've got respect for the police,

466
00:21:14,470 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 2: those tactical officers, the courses they go through, just incredible

467
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,020
Speaker 2: to get them there. And I don't think you can

468
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,360
Speaker 2: really explain to anybody unless they've been through it. And

469
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 2: so I was doing that for a little bit. And

470
00:21:25,310 --> 00:21:30,450
Speaker 2: then they managed to get rid of the part-time members

471
00:21:30,710 --> 00:21:33,850
Speaker 2: and they asked myself and quite a few others to

472
00:21:33,890 --> 00:21:38,020
Speaker 2: go to full-time. I had my eyes set on the

473
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,220
Speaker 2: dog squad and I basically said, no, I stayed in

474
00:21:40,260 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 2: general duties until a spot came up in the dog squad.

475
00:21:42,900 --> 00:21:47,500
Speaker 1: Okay. Your dogs, let's compare. You've had five dogs in

476
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:52,659
Speaker 1: your service. Just compare the difference between, say, Zed, And

477
00:21:52,740 --> 00:21:57,660
Speaker 1: our hero for this podcast, Vader, who is outstanding work

478
00:21:57,980 --> 00:22:01,399
Speaker 1: with Vader, describe the type of dogs they were and

479
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,820
Speaker 1: the type of different personalities because you worked with both

480
00:22:03,859 --> 00:22:06,020
Speaker 1: of them. How would you break it down?

481
00:22:06,340 --> 00:22:09,820
Speaker 2: Probably the most important changes was when I first joined

482
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,440
Speaker 2: the dog squad in 1999, they said, here's your new uniform,

483
00:22:13,740 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 2: here's your new belt, go and find yourself a dog.

484
00:22:16,460 --> 00:22:18,700
Speaker 2: So we would go to the community radio, we would

485
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:20,750
Speaker 2: advertise on TV, they'd put a photo of me in

486
00:22:20,770 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 2: the paper and say, The new dog hand is looking

487
00:22:23,300 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 2: for a dog. And from there, people would write in

488
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:33,659
Speaker 2: or send us messages. No mobile phones back then. So

489
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,380
Speaker 2: they'd ring the police station. We've got a dog here

490
00:22:35,820 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 2: that keeps digging holes, keeps jumping fences, and that's the

491
00:22:38,020 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 2: type of dog we want. So we'd go around and

492
00:22:39,510 --> 00:22:40,889
Speaker 2: have a look at him and say, yep, we'll take this,

493
00:22:40,970 --> 00:22:43,710
Speaker 2: and then we'll take it down to train. Whereas nowadays,

494
00:22:43,750 --> 00:22:48,490
Speaker 2: of course, I've got the breeding program, and the QPS

495
00:22:48,510 --> 00:22:50,970
Speaker 2: did fantastic. We might have been close on the first

496
00:22:51,010 --> 00:22:53,389
Speaker 2: breeding program, I think, for the police to have. And

497
00:22:53,869 --> 00:22:56,410
Speaker 2: they were just, they did a great job. And now

498
00:22:56,450 --> 00:22:59,409
Speaker 2: the dogs they're churning out are so good. So when

499
00:22:59,470 --> 00:23:02,010
Speaker 2: I first went down, I had to start right from scratch.

500
00:23:02,050 --> 00:23:04,050
Speaker 2: I had this two-year-old dog. I remember my first dog

501
00:23:04,070 --> 00:23:06,869
Speaker 2: was Buddy. It was handed over by a couple of

502
00:23:06,910 --> 00:23:10,780
Speaker 2: people from Brisbane who were a professional couple. And he

503
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 2: was a big, massive dog.

504
00:23:12,190 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 1: What breed?

505
00:23:13,420 --> 00:23:13,980
Speaker 2: German Shepherd.

506
00:23:14,460 --> 00:23:14,700
Speaker 1: Yeah.

507
00:23:14,980 --> 00:23:16,580
Speaker 2: You tried to get German Shepherds because they were the

508
00:23:16,619 --> 00:23:19,770
Speaker 2: proven ones. Malinois weren't heard of back then. Yeah. Uh,

509
00:23:19,810 --> 00:23:23,010
Speaker 2: that's the new, that's the new, uh, new trend until

510
00:23:23,030 --> 00:23:24,850
Speaker 2: something else comes along like a dash hand or something,

511
00:23:24,869 --> 00:23:27,490
Speaker 2: but we'll worry about that when it happens. But, uh,

512
00:23:27,530 --> 00:23:30,570
Speaker 2: so yeah, so I, uh, every dog I got here

513
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 2: actually failed. I can't remember the name of the dog

514
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,699
Speaker 2: I had here, but then I eventually went down and

515
00:23:35,980 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 2: Brisbane had sourced Buddy for me and I walked in

516
00:23:38,020 --> 00:23:40,139
Speaker 2: and there was this massive big 45 kilo dog and

517
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,020
Speaker 2: he was, he was just a massive big spatch. But

518
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,110
Speaker 2: he was so, such picturesque, if that's the word, that

519
00:23:47,650 --> 00:23:50,690
Speaker 2: the QPS took him on as one of their, A media,

520
00:23:51,300 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 2: media junkies. And of course, that's where I came in.

521
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 2: I mean, he was a good looking dog. And you

522
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 2: had the opposite here.

523
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 1: He just had the looks. The looks carried him through.

524
00:24:04,020 --> 00:24:06,330
Speaker 2: One day we were doing an interview with Channel 7

525
00:24:06,330 --> 00:24:08,190
Speaker 2: because we were trying to recruit dogs for the police

526
00:24:08,210 --> 00:24:11,530
Speaker 2: dog squad. And we were sitting across from a reporter.

527
00:24:12,350 --> 00:24:15,949
Speaker 2: And the bloke with the boom mic leaned across and

528
00:24:15,990 --> 00:24:18,719
Speaker 2: put the boom mic in between myself and the reporter. Now,

529
00:24:18,740 --> 00:24:19,980
Speaker 2: I don't know about you, but one of those boom

530
00:24:20,020 --> 00:24:22,100
Speaker 2: might look very much like one of those arms that

531
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 2: we use for bite training. And the dog leapt and

532
00:24:24,770 --> 00:24:26,660
Speaker 2: took out that boom like it smashed to the ground

533
00:24:27,330 --> 00:24:30,650
Speaker 2: and everybody just ran and scattered. They were just a wild,

534
00:24:30,670 --> 00:24:32,050
Speaker 2: wild west, these dogs.

535
00:24:32,630 --> 00:24:34,910
Speaker 1: What sort of training is done with the dogs?

536
00:24:35,250 --> 00:24:39,190
Speaker 2: It's a 14-week course and that was my first course.

537
00:24:39,210 --> 00:24:41,890
Speaker 2: And we would obviously say obedience is the main thing

538
00:24:41,910 --> 00:24:43,710
Speaker 2: and that's the groundwork for any dog. I train dogs

539
00:24:43,750 --> 00:24:47,350
Speaker 2: now for a couple of government organisations and And I

540
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,550
Speaker 2: also train dogs privately, but the grounding for everything that

541
00:24:51,590 --> 00:24:53,929
Speaker 2: we want to do is obedience. So once we've got

542
00:24:53,950 --> 00:24:55,950
Speaker 2: the dog nice and obedient, then we can start doing

543
00:24:55,990 --> 00:24:58,810
Speaker 2: other stuff. And obviously there's things like our main one

544
00:24:58,850 --> 00:25:02,070
Speaker 2: was tracking. So that's tracking offenders, which was, and that

545
00:25:02,170 --> 00:25:05,369
Speaker 2: is a very long, slow process. And it's quite, if

546
00:25:05,410 --> 00:25:07,430
Speaker 2: you don't do the basics on that, you can mess

547
00:25:07,470 --> 00:25:09,270
Speaker 2: the dog up and you're not going to catch anybody.

548
00:25:10,310 --> 00:25:12,510
Speaker 2: But again, the QPS have got their, they've got everything

549
00:25:12,550 --> 00:25:15,330
Speaker 2: into gear down there and everything works really well. So Tracking,

550
00:25:15,350 --> 00:25:17,510
Speaker 2: there was obviously the bite work, which was synonymous with

551
00:25:17,550 --> 00:25:19,910
Speaker 2: police work. People put the arm on and stuff like that.

552
00:25:19,950 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 2: And I think my first dog, Buddy, would have 100 bites.

553
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,500
Speaker 2: It was just massive. It's just like anybody we found

554
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,530
Speaker 2: was bitten, but because they weren't as well trained, they

555
00:25:31,550 --> 00:25:35,300
Speaker 2: didn't come off and stuff like that. Yeah. And compared

556
00:25:35,340 --> 00:25:37,380
Speaker 2: to my last dog, Jet, I think I had one bite.

557
00:25:37,619 --> 00:25:40,740
Speaker 1: Just to clarify, the type of dogs you were getting

558
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,959
Speaker 1: were general purpose dogs. They weren't specifically bought in to

559
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,020
Speaker 1: search for drugs or this.

560
00:25:46,060 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 2: No, that's right.

561
00:25:47,140 --> 00:25:49,740
Speaker 1: A situation that happened and an offender had to camp

562
00:25:49,820 --> 00:25:53,300
Speaker 1: and you were the people that we called to locate

563
00:25:53,340 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: the offender.

564
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 2: That's right. Because back in 99, that's all we had

565
00:25:56,420 --> 00:25:59,510
Speaker 2: was GP dogs. The GP dogs were also trained on

566
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 2: cannabis detection, believe it or not. That's something that's gone

567
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,540
Speaker 2: by the wayside now because it's not seen as such

568
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:12,590
Speaker 2: a bad thing. And we would cross-train them for cannabis detection.

569
00:26:13,230 --> 00:26:16,130
Speaker 2: So we'd have the tracking, the bite work. They do

570
00:26:16,190 --> 00:26:19,129
Speaker 2: article searches now. What an article search is, the dog

571
00:26:19,450 --> 00:26:22,260
Speaker 2: would go into an area, a grassed area or something,

572
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 2: maybe a park or something, and would locate something that

573
00:26:25,660 --> 00:26:29,530
Speaker 2: was recently discarded, human scent. So it be able to

574
00:26:29,550 --> 00:26:30,609
Speaker 2: send the dog in there and bring it back. It

575
00:26:30,850 --> 00:26:32,389
Speaker 2: was handy if you lost your keys in the park,

576
00:26:32,430 --> 00:26:33,550
Speaker 2: you'd send the dog in and pick it up and

577
00:26:33,570 --> 00:26:37,150
Speaker 2: bring it back out, stuff like that. And we would

578
00:26:37,230 --> 00:26:42,250
Speaker 2: also do building searches. So that would mean that if somebody,

579
00:26:42,290 --> 00:26:43,850
Speaker 2: there's a recent break and enter, or we had a

580
00:26:43,890 --> 00:26:46,510
Speaker 2: suspicion somebody's in there, we'd send the dog in, he'd

581
00:26:46,530 --> 00:26:49,010
Speaker 2: do a search and he'd locate that person. Now I've

582
00:26:49,030 --> 00:26:53,490
Speaker 2: located people in floorboards underneath the floor, timber floors. I've

583
00:26:53,810 --> 00:26:56,909
Speaker 2: located a few in the ceiling. I've also located one

584
00:26:56,970 --> 00:27:00,410
Speaker 2: person who was tucked himself inside one of those fold-out

585
00:27:00,650 --> 00:27:04,090
Speaker 2: sofa beds. He's taken the mattress out and hidden in there.

586
00:27:04,470 --> 00:27:06,150
Speaker 2: So just amazing. They just sit there and they bark

587
00:27:06,190 --> 00:27:07,590
Speaker 2: and then we get the opportunity to go in and

588
00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:08,109
Speaker 2: get them.

589
00:27:08,430 --> 00:27:12,169
Speaker 1: What's the science behind their skills in tracking? Like if

590
00:27:12,770 --> 00:27:15,210
Speaker 1: you've got an incident that's occurred, let's say in a

591
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: park and the offenders run off from an assault and

592
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,340
Speaker 1: you guys roll in, what's the science and what's the

593
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 1: skills that the dog possess that they can pick up

594
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: a scent and follow it?

595
00:27:26,630 --> 00:27:29,170
Speaker 2: It's all play-driven. So the dog knows at the end

596
00:27:29,490 --> 00:27:31,869
Speaker 2: of his track, he's going to get a reward. And

597
00:27:31,910 --> 00:27:34,129
Speaker 2: we start off doing a track that's, you know, 10

598
00:27:34,130 --> 00:27:36,250
Speaker 2: metres long. And at the end of that, there may

599
00:27:36,270 --> 00:27:38,409
Speaker 2: be food or there may be a toy, depending on

600
00:27:38,430 --> 00:27:41,530
Speaker 2: the dog. And slowly, slowly, slowly, over three and a

601
00:27:41,530 --> 00:27:43,860
Speaker 2: half months, we stretch that out to be, you know,

602
00:27:43,890 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 2: two and three kilometres away. And the science behind it

603
00:27:48,260 --> 00:27:50,620
Speaker 2: is basically the dog enjoys what it's doing. It wants

604
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,060
Speaker 2: to play the game. It wants to get a toy

605
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,580
Speaker 2: at the end. Whether that is food at the end

606
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,510
Speaker 2: or whether that's a bite at the end, They don't

607
00:27:56,530 --> 00:27:59,570
Speaker 2: know because these dogs love biting, obviously. They love the sleeve.

608
00:28:00,450 --> 00:28:03,550
Speaker 2: And so that's basically the science behind it. It's not

609
00:28:03,609 --> 00:28:05,850
Speaker 2: exact science because the handler has a lot to do

610
00:28:05,869 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 2: with it to be able to read his dog. That's very,

611
00:28:08,220 --> 00:28:11,379
Speaker 2: very important that the dog can, the handler can, because

612
00:28:11,540 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 2: what you don't want to do, a dog, especially if

613
00:28:13,780 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 2: it's going quick and up here in North Queensland and

614
00:28:15,859 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: I suppose the rest of Queen, most of the state,

615
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,770
Speaker 2: we track very quickly. So we'll be tracking at a full,

616
00:28:21,030 --> 00:28:23,570
Speaker 2: almost a full sprint, the dog will run off. But

617
00:28:23,930 --> 00:28:28,410
Speaker 2: with that, because we don't have the, police and the

618
00:28:28,470 --> 00:28:30,659
Speaker 2: rest of the staff, the resources around to put a

619
00:28:30,670 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 2: cordon in place. So we need to try and catch

620
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,580
Speaker 2: the person. We do put cordon, we try to get

621
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 2: them to go to ground, but we need to try

622
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:38,500
Speaker 2: and catch up to them. So that's why we track

623
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 2: so fast.

624
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: Are the dogs picking up the scent off the ground

625
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,660
Speaker 1: or in the air or what trail are they following?

626
00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:48,300
Speaker 2: Yeah, they'll pick up the scent off the ground most

627
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,630
Speaker 2: of the time. As you get closer to the offender,

628
00:28:51,970 --> 00:28:55,180
Speaker 2: if they're hiding, then you'll pick up the wind scenting

629
00:28:55,260 --> 00:28:57,620
Speaker 2: or the scent in the air. And you'll see the dog,

630
00:28:57,660 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 2: its ears will go up, its tail will go up,

631
00:28:59,060 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 2: and you'll be pulling the dog back and going, hey,

632
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 2: pull back here. And quite often, because we track so fast,

633
00:29:03,620 --> 00:29:06,140
Speaker 2: we may go past where the offender's hiding. And when

634
00:29:06,180 --> 00:29:09,030
Speaker 2: the dog stops, you go, okay, he's probably right beside me.

635
00:29:09,060 --> 00:29:10,790
Speaker 2: So you pull the dog back quickly and send them in.

636
00:29:11,630 --> 00:29:14,910
Speaker 1: And as a trainer, you can start to read the

637
00:29:14,950 --> 00:29:17,130
Speaker 1: signs with the ears going up or the tail up

638
00:29:17,210 --> 00:29:17,910
Speaker 1: or down or?

639
00:29:18,060 --> 00:29:21,140
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And a lot of times it's in the dark

640
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 2: as well. So you don't know, you can't see the dog,

641
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: but you can feel totally on that line what the

642
00:29:27,140 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 2: dog's doing. So if the dog starts pulling really hard,

643
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,530
Speaker 2: you know, okay, I've got him here. And that's when

644
00:29:31,550 --> 00:29:33,710
Speaker 2: you can put your torch on because you do tend

645
00:29:33,730 --> 00:29:35,990
Speaker 2: to run along without your light on for obvious reasons.

646
00:29:36,010 --> 00:29:38,030
Speaker 2: You don't want to get shot. I did a job

647
00:29:38,110 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 2: once where the witnesses, said a male person wanted to

648
00:29:41,780 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 2: hurt himself. I brought the dog out. The witnesses said

649
00:29:46,540 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: he turned right out of this house. The dog wanted

650
00:29:48,820 --> 00:29:51,060
Speaker 2: to go left. And I went, what do I do?

651
00:29:51,140 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 2: And I decided I was going to go left and

652
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,810
Speaker 2: just follow the dog and not worry about what they said.

653
00:29:56,590 --> 00:29:58,870
Speaker 2: I followed this dog. And I followed the dog probably

654
00:29:58,890 --> 00:30:01,710
Speaker 2: about 500 meters. pitch black, went into this park, pitch

655
00:30:01,730 --> 00:30:03,910
Speaker 2: black dark, and the dog just went off his head.

656
00:30:04,010 --> 00:30:05,970
Speaker 2: So I knew straight away that somebody was here. I

657
00:30:05,990 --> 00:30:09,470
Speaker 2: shone the light, and he was actually hanging from one

658
00:30:09,490 --> 00:30:11,690
Speaker 2: of the swings. And I managed to tie the dog

659
00:30:11,730 --> 00:30:12,570
Speaker 2: up there, and we actually.

660
00:30:12,350 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: Brought him back. That had actually run off to hang himself,

661
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: take his life.

662
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 2: Yep, yep, wanted to self-harm, and we managed to find

663
00:30:19,980 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 2: him and bring him back, which was, you know, so.

664
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,310
Speaker 1: You say that as a matter of fact, but that's,

665
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,230
Speaker 1: you know, the old heart would be pumping in situations

666
00:30:28,290 --> 00:30:30,990
Speaker 1: like that. You don't know what you're running into. Invariably,

667
00:30:31,110 --> 00:30:34,850
Speaker 1: it's someone you're chasing. And then in the dark, you're

668
00:30:34,870 --> 00:30:36,469
Speaker 1: on your own, it's you and your dog, and you

669
00:30:36,490 --> 00:30:39,620
Speaker 1: shine a torch, and there's someone hanging from a pole.

670
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,820
Speaker 2: When you're in that uniform... or when you're at work mode,

671
00:30:42,860 --> 00:30:45,300
Speaker 2: it's a little bit different. You know, like they say,

672
00:30:45,540 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 2: we go to jobs and they say, oh, there's a

673
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,010
Speaker 2: bloke run off with a gun in there into the

674
00:30:49,050 --> 00:30:51,870
Speaker 2: cane paddock or a knife, whatever. You're going to go

675
00:30:51,890 --> 00:30:53,209
Speaker 2: in and you go, yeah, yeah, no worries at all.

676
00:30:53,510 --> 00:30:55,190
Speaker 2: Off you go. You don't even think about it, which

677
00:30:55,270 --> 00:30:57,310
Speaker 2: is just a strange thing. Whereas if I was in

678
00:30:57,350 --> 00:30:59,550
Speaker 2: plain clothes or somebody told me, go into that cane

679
00:30:59,590 --> 00:31:01,490
Speaker 2: paddock now, I don't think I'd do it. I'd be

680
00:31:01,510 --> 00:31:03,510
Speaker 2: worried about snakes. I'd be worried about the bloke with

681
00:31:03,530 --> 00:31:05,540
Speaker 2: the gun. I'd be worried about all that type of stuff.

682
00:31:05,580 --> 00:31:08,479
Speaker 2: Whereas back in there, you're just 10 foot tall and bulletproof.

683
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:09,820
Speaker 2: It's just strange, strange feeling.

684
00:31:10,620 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: I think I understand that, like working with tactical police,

685
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,660
Speaker 1: when you're going into an arrest an armed offender, you're

686
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: all kitted up. You're in that role. You're in that mode,

687
00:31:19,820 --> 00:31:22,219
Speaker 1: and you're not really thinking about it the way that

688
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: you would if you stepped away from the job that

689
00:31:24,460 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: you're doing.

690
00:31:25,220 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm not sure whether it's complacency. Complacency has

691
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 2: a place, but I think it's just, all right, this

692
00:31:31,740 --> 00:31:34,020
Speaker 2: is my job. This is my job. People need protecting,

693
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,610
Speaker 2: and off you go and do those things. Many times

694
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 2: I've looked at the dogs. And I thought, not sure

695
00:31:38,700 --> 00:31:42,180
Speaker 2: whether this is right. And I'd side-eye him and he'd

696
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,090
Speaker 2: look back at me and go, well, you're not going

697
00:31:44,130 --> 00:31:45,530
Speaker 2: in there, mate. I'm not going in there as well.

698
00:31:45,550 --> 00:31:47,130
Speaker 2: But we managed to.

699
00:31:47,510 --> 00:31:50,630
Speaker 1: Well, we'll just go back and tell him we lost them. Yeah.

700
00:31:51,730 --> 00:31:53,740
Speaker 2: Yeah, got on a bike. Got on a bike with

701
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:54,500
Speaker 2: a bit of cane padding.

702
00:31:55,020 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? But exciting. The adrenaline kicks

703
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,660
Speaker 1: in too. And it's the thrill of the chase. I

704
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: think there's something about the work that the dog squad

705
00:32:05,310 --> 00:32:09,230
Speaker 1: guys do and, you know, stories from your career, that

706
00:32:09,590 --> 00:32:11,950
Speaker 1: it really is boiling down to what policing should be,

707
00:32:11,970 --> 00:32:14,550
Speaker 1: the good guys chasing the bad guys. And it really

708
00:32:15,430 --> 00:32:16,610
Speaker 1: comes down to that, doesn't it?

709
00:32:16,870 --> 00:32:17,790
Speaker 2: And the good guys winning.

710
00:32:18,270 --> 00:32:21,130
Speaker 1: Now, with Vader, what type of dog was Vader?

711
00:32:21,750 --> 00:32:23,550
Speaker 2: Vader was a German Shepherd as well, yeah.

712
00:32:23,930 --> 00:32:26,450
Speaker 1: How old was he when you– I think it would

713
00:32:26,470 --> 00:32:28,290
Speaker 1: have been about three years of age.

714
00:32:28,530 --> 00:32:30,930
Speaker 2: What happened was one of the– the handler who had

715
00:32:30,970 --> 00:32:33,910
Speaker 2: him prior to that, He decided to go on to

716
00:32:34,050 --> 00:32:35,650
Speaker 2: get out of the dog squad and try and get

717
00:32:35,670 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 2: promoted because the dog squad is a position where once

718
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,180
Speaker 2: you enter, you want to stay there. You don't want

719
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 2: to move on. Such a good job because you're autonomous.

720
00:32:47,940 --> 00:32:49,820
Speaker 2: The bosses leave you alone. They don't know what you do.

721
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,180
Speaker 2: All they see is the results that come through, which

722
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,270
Speaker 2: is great. You work by yourself with your dog. You

723
00:32:55,290 --> 00:32:57,670
Speaker 2: don't have to deal with sitting next to someone who

724
00:32:58,460 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 2: Maybe you don't get along with, and not that I

725
00:33:00,460 --> 00:33:02,380
Speaker 2: had any drama with anybody, but I don't want to

726
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,330
Speaker 2: make conversation with somebody for eight hours. You know, it's

727
00:33:05,450 --> 00:33:07,010
Speaker 2: all nice weather, you know, that type of stuff.

728
00:33:07,330 --> 00:33:10,490
Speaker 1: That's a side of policing people don't understand because invariably

729
00:33:10,530 --> 00:33:12,350
Speaker 1: you're getting mixed up and you're put in a car

730
00:33:12,370 --> 00:33:15,550
Speaker 1: with someone you mightn't have met and you're stuck there

731
00:33:15,570 --> 00:33:17,390
Speaker 1: for eight hours and you've got to make small talk.

732
00:33:17,450 --> 00:33:21,450
Speaker 1: It's like going on a long holiday every shift and

733
00:33:21,510 --> 00:33:23,610
Speaker 1: you've got to make small talk. Some people like to

734
00:33:23,650 --> 00:33:26,990
Speaker 1: talk constantly. Others just sit there. I can understand the

735
00:33:27,030 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: piece sometimes. that you would get just sitting there with

736
00:33:29,260 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: a dog in.

737
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:31,900
Speaker 2: The back of the car. Yeah, yeah. And, you know,

738
00:33:31,980 --> 00:33:34,100
Speaker 2: that job, as you talk about, you're sitting next to someone,

739
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,620
Speaker 2: you mightn't even like them, you know. But I'll tell

740
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,310
Speaker 2: you one thing is that if you got into trouble,

741
00:33:38,350 --> 00:33:39,630
Speaker 2: they're the ones that are going to back you every

742
00:33:39,650 --> 00:33:41,730
Speaker 2: single time. You know, they're the ones who race and

743
00:33:41,750 --> 00:33:43,410
Speaker 2: they don't care who you are. They just see that

744
00:33:43,450 --> 00:33:44,969
Speaker 2: blue uniform and they're going to run in and help you.

745
00:33:45,330 --> 00:33:47,490
Speaker 2: So that's the most important thing about that.

746
00:33:48,090 --> 00:33:50,890
Speaker 1: Now, just before we move on to Vader, one thing

747
00:33:50,930 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you, talk about the sleeve and

748
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,330
Speaker 1: the bites. How are police dogs trained? It's not like

749
00:33:56,370 --> 00:33:59,110
Speaker 1: to go for the throat. What are they trained to

750
00:33:59,150 --> 00:34:00,410
Speaker 1: do to bring a fender down?

751
00:34:00,450 --> 00:34:03,130
Speaker 2: Again, that's the toy. So they're trained on the toy.

752
00:34:03,190 --> 00:34:05,570
Speaker 2: So we just wrestle with it with the toy first up,

753
00:34:05,710 --> 00:34:08,379
Speaker 2: get a really good mouth bite, and slowly that toy

754
00:34:08,410 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 2: becomes the arm. And the arm and then the bite suit.

755
00:34:12,060 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 2: But they're not actually trained to bite onto the arm.

756
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 2: They're trained to bite the first part of the body

757
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,859
Speaker 2: that presents itself. Nine times out of ten, that's the arm.

758
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:22,720
Speaker 2: But it will take the leg. I had one bloke

759
00:34:22,739 --> 00:34:24,740
Speaker 2: who was bitten on the head, but And the dogs

760
00:34:24,780 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 2: are designed to bite and hold. So they hold, they

761
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,100
Speaker 2: don't let go. So nobody comes out with chew marks

762
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 2: all over them. The dog will just hold on to

763
00:34:31,900 --> 00:34:35,700
Speaker 2: them nice and tight. And I had one offender from

764
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,580
Speaker 2: an unlawful use of a motor vehicle. Dog burst into

765
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 2: the bush with his evader and got him on top

766
00:34:41,820 --> 00:34:43,940
Speaker 2: of the head because he had his head sticking out

767
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:45,700
Speaker 2: and the dog got hold of his head and couldn't

768
00:34:45,739 --> 00:34:48,060
Speaker 2: get a grip. So he put about 30 scratch marks

769
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:49,989
Speaker 2: on his head and then finally got hold of the shoulder.

770
00:34:50,660 --> 00:34:52,310
Speaker 2: So that's what they do. They want to get on

771
00:34:52,390 --> 00:34:53,590
Speaker 2: and grip on nice and tight.

772
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: And trained to hang on until you guys get there.

773
00:34:56,820 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 2: That's right, yeah, yeah. And that could be 100 metres away. Or,

774
00:35:01,980 --> 00:35:05,450
Speaker 2: you know, we even teach the dogs to run in.

775
00:35:05,460 --> 00:35:07,700
Speaker 2: For instance, you might have an offender that's lying on

776
00:35:07,739 --> 00:35:09,339
Speaker 2: the ground next to a gun. He may be dead.

777
00:35:09,380 --> 00:35:11,029
Speaker 2: He may not be. He may be foxing. So we

778
00:35:11,070 --> 00:35:12,660
Speaker 2: don't know. So we can send the dog in to bite.

779
00:35:13,030 --> 00:35:15,169
Speaker 2: And with that line, we can drag the person away

780
00:35:15,210 --> 00:35:18,950
Speaker 2: from the firearm. And, you know, so we're all in safe.

781
00:35:18,969 --> 00:35:22,569
Speaker 2: Then we can move forward. So they're just brilliant. The

782
00:35:22,610 --> 00:35:23,890
Speaker 2: tools are just amazing.

783
00:35:24,390 --> 00:35:26,940
Speaker 1: You talk, and just so people all understand all the

784
00:35:26,980 --> 00:35:29,259
Speaker 1: dynamics of it, the line that you talk about, that's

785
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: a rope or something that connects a dog to the handler.

786
00:35:33,100 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 1: And how long is that?

787
00:35:34,700 --> 00:35:37,500
Speaker 2: That's a tracking line. So that's usually about five, 10

788
00:35:37,500 --> 00:35:40,940
Speaker 2: metres long. And the dog's never let off that unless

789
00:35:40,980 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 2: there's a defender that's running away and we've got eyes

790
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,379
Speaker 2: on them because that dog may take anybody, but very

791
00:35:46,420 --> 00:35:48,460
Speaker 2: rarely do we let it go. So every time that

792
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 2: dog does its tracking, we're on the end of that

793
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 2: line following. And so, as I mentioned before, so we

794
00:35:54,500 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 2: go over fences. If the dog goes over fences, we're

795
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,299
Speaker 2: just following straight after. The dog may indicate up on

796
00:36:00,340 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 2: a roof. We'll put the dog up on the roof

797
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:03,299
Speaker 2: and we'll follow up there. We'll keep it on the

798
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,060
Speaker 2: line everywhere we go.

799
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,860
Speaker 1: I've worked with some great partners, but even great partners

800
00:36:08,900 --> 00:36:14,760
Speaker 1: have certain failings. And your partner, Vader... had an unnatural

801
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,230
Speaker 1: interest in small animals or wild animals. Oh, yeah. Tell

802
00:36:18,290 --> 00:36:21,530
Speaker 1: us about the first time you were with Vader and

803
00:36:21,610 --> 00:36:23,790
Speaker 1: what happened when you took him out for a bit

804
00:36:23,830 --> 00:36:25,129
Speaker 1: of a get-to-know-each-other trip.

805
00:36:25,610 --> 00:36:27,490
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I turned up at the police academy, of course,

806
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 2: to pick up my new dog, which was Vader. The

807
00:36:33,780 --> 00:36:35,959
Speaker 2: instructor just said, oh, go down to Kennel 5, whatever

808
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:37,419
Speaker 2: it is, and go and get your dog and take

809
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:38,859
Speaker 2: him out, get used to him, which I did. So

810
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 2: I wanted out there and I grabbed... hold of uh

811
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,380
Speaker 2: vader put him in the back and of course we

812
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 2: went down to the uh a little place called wake

813
00:36:46,060 --> 00:36:50,090
Speaker 2: hole where we do a lot of our training i

814
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:51,330
Speaker 2: decided i was going to get the ball out and

815
00:36:51,350 --> 00:36:52,910
Speaker 2: throw up for vader because i knew his ball driven

816
00:36:52,930 --> 00:36:56,130
Speaker 2: he loved his toy and i opened up the cage

817
00:36:56,150 --> 00:36:57,750
Speaker 2: ready to throw the toy and just as i did

818
00:36:57,790 --> 00:37:01,150
Speaker 2: that a kangaroo runs past and of course the dog

819
00:37:01,230 --> 00:37:04,510
Speaker 2: decides the kangaroo and decides He's mine. I said, no.

820
00:37:04,530 --> 00:37:07,049
Speaker 2: Of course, the dog off goes. We're at a cricket pitch,

821
00:37:07,070 --> 00:37:08,690
Speaker 2: so there's a white picket fence either side, and the

822
00:37:08,710 --> 00:37:11,650
Speaker 2: kangaroo jumps up first, white picket fence, and followed by

823
00:37:11,670 --> 00:37:14,030
Speaker 2: the dog and followed by me about a minute later.

824
00:37:14,489 --> 00:37:16,910
Speaker 2: Called out, Vader, no. But Vader had no loyalty to me,

825
00:37:16,950 --> 00:37:18,330
Speaker 2: so he was not going to stop for me. He's

826
00:37:18,350 --> 00:37:20,129
Speaker 2: going to look back as if to say, oh, you know,

827
00:37:20,630 --> 00:37:22,250
Speaker 2: bugger you, mate. I'm out of here. You know, I

828
00:37:22,250 --> 00:37:24,489
Speaker 2: want him. And I saw them disappear into the bush.

829
00:37:25,460 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 2: And I go, oh, God. So I went over there

830
00:37:28,180 --> 00:37:30,350
Speaker 2: and walked up and down, calling Vader, Vader, Vader for

831
00:37:30,370 --> 00:37:32,450
Speaker 2: the next 15 minutes. And I drove the car around

832
00:37:32,610 --> 00:37:34,209
Speaker 2: just to double check to make sure that he wasn't,

833
00:37:34,590 --> 00:37:36,190
Speaker 2: you know, he could hear the car and come out.

834
00:37:36,890 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 2: And I ended up going, I've just got to tell

835
00:37:39,300 --> 00:37:41,420
Speaker 2: the bosses that I lost my dog in 15 minutes.

836
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,260
Speaker 2: I've had this dog half an hour. And I thought,

837
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,259
Speaker 2: you know, there's going to be 30, 40 coppers walking

838
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,219
Speaker 2: through the bush. And because, of course, the media gets

839
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,589
Speaker 2: hold of it. We're in strife. So... I decided I'd ring.

840
00:37:51,670 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 2: We had mobile phones back then, so I just started

841
00:37:53,860 --> 00:37:56,460
Speaker 2: dialing the phone. And just then, as I did, out

842
00:37:56,500 --> 00:37:58,259
Speaker 2: comes Vader out of the bush, and he gave me

843
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,339
Speaker 2: that look as if to say, mate, I missed him

844
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:01,940
Speaker 2: this time, but I'll get him next time for you.

845
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 2: I didn't say a word to him. He was over

846
00:38:03,900 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 2: on the back. I said, get in there, mate. Off

847
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 2: he did. And didn't speak to him for another couple

848
00:38:07,860 --> 00:38:09,380
Speaker 2: of days, but we got over that.

849
00:38:10,430 --> 00:38:13,410
Speaker 1: I would imagine that relationship that you got with your dog,

850
00:38:13,489 --> 00:38:15,870
Speaker 1: like you had to take to the dog, but the

851
00:38:15,890 --> 00:38:17,890
Speaker 1: dog would have to take to you too because the

852
00:38:17,910 --> 00:38:20,150
Speaker 1: dogs have got their own personalities and some people they

853
00:38:20,190 --> 00:38:23,110
Speaker 1: just don't like. You'd have to click, I would imagine.

854
00:38:23,690 --> 00:38:25,589
Speaker 2: It's funny why the best police dogs I had were

855
00:38:25,610 --> 00:38:29,810
Speaker 2: the ones who were not so people orientated. They were,

856
00:38:29,830 --> 00:38:32,989
Speaker 2: you know, Vader, for instance, lived to work. He didn't

857
00:38:33,030 --> 00:38:34,830
Speaker 2: get on with the family. He got along with them,

858
00:38:34,870 --> 00:38:37,930
Speaker 2: but he just like, oh, okay, well, give me a pat,

859
00:38:37,950 --> 00:38:39,489
Speaker 2: but when are we going to work? That type of stuff.

860
00:38:39,820 --> 00:38:43,420
Speaker 2: Whereas the dogs like Zed were more people-orientated and they're going, oh,

861
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 2: we're going to work. Okay, I'll jump in, whatever. Whatever

862
00:38:46,180 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 2: I'll do. I'm happy just to do anything. So that

863
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 2: was a little difference there.

864
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,819
Speaker 1: I like it. So Vader was just a committed cop

865
00:38:55,860 --> 00:38:59,780
Speaker 1: that stuffed the personal and private life. I'm all about work.

866
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 2: Exactly, yeah.

867
00:39:00,969 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: That's what drove him. I think you had, when Zed

868
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:10,070
Speaker 1: failed through the recruitment with his lack of aggression and

869
00:39:10,110 --> 00:39:12,469
Speaker 1: you took him home as a family pet, was he

870
00:39:12,510 --> 00:39:16,790
Speaker 1: allowed to, because you allocated dog with you as well,

871
00:39:17,130 --> 00:39:19,810
Speaker 1: did him and Vader socialize?

872
00:39:19,810 --> 00:39:23,190
Speaker 2: They didn't. A bit of a funny story, but every

873
00:39:23,190 --> 00:39:26,500
Speaker 2: time I'd come home, so Zed started to live inside

874
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:27,919
Speaker 2: with the kids and the wife and kids.

875
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:29,739
Speaker 1: I knew he was soft.

876
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. He was never.

877
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 1: Going to make it.

878
00:39:31,980 --> 00:39:33,700
Speaker 2: He was getting in there during the day, I think,

879
00:39:33,739 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 2: when I was out. Other places, the kids were letting

880
00:39:36,739 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 2: him in when he was working. And I think, anyway,

881
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,620
Speaker 2: I'm not going to lay blame. And I remember coming

882
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 2: home one day and the dog was lying on the floor,

883
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,609
Speaker 2: the tiled floor, and it looked at me like, his

884
00:39:50,830 --> 00:39:52,710
Speaker 2: eyes just lifted up and goes, if I just lay

885
00:39:52,730 --> 00:39:55,230
Speaker 2: here long enough, maybe he won't notice. You know, I

886
00:39:55,250 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 2: thought I saw it straight away, of course. But I

887
00:39:57,700 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 2: used to come home with Vader and the dog van

888
00:40:01,260 --> 00:40:03,580
Speaker 2: has two kennels in it at the back. So you

889
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 2: can take two dogs out if you need to. And

890
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,020
Speaker 2: every time I get home at night, I used to

891
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,660
Speaker 2: put Zed in, Vader was in one side coming home

892
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 2: from work and put Zed in the other side. And

893
00:40:13,180 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 2: of course I'd have a fight with one another, one

894
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,670
Speaker 2: a blue and carry on. And And I'd get their

895
00:40:18,690 --> 00:40:20,009
Speaker 2: food ready and then I'd let them out of the

896
00:40:20,030 --> 00:40:22,220
Speaker 2: kennel and off they'd go and eat their food separately.

897
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 2: And one night I got home, did the same thing,

898
00:40:24,260 --> 00:40:25,819
Speaker 2: opened up the back, in you get Zed, you know.

899
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 2: And then I come back and I went to the

900
00:40:29,460 --> 00:40:31,049
Speaker 2: kennel and I opened the back of the kennel up

901
00:40:31,090 --> 00:40:34,190
Speaker 2: after I'd fed them and nobody jumped out. I opened

902
00:40:34,210 --> 00:40:35,890
Speaker 2: up the other one and both dogs jumped out of

903
00:40:35,910 --> 00:40:39,690
Speaker 2: the same kennel. So they'd been– but it's like– and

904
00:40:39,710 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 2: we get those as offenders, you know. They'll stand at

905
00:40:41,820 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 2: the front of the car and they'll say, yeah, I'll

906
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,850
Speaker 2: fight you, I'll fight you. And they stand off. As

907
00:40:45,870 --> 00:40:47,290
Speaker 2: soon as the coppers turn up, they start getting into

908
00:40:47,310 --> 00:40:50,489
Speaker 2: it because they know they've got a backup, you know,

909
00:40:50,530 --> 00:40:52,450
Speaker 2: whereas I used to sit there and watch them go, oh,

910
00:40:52,489 --> 00:40:54,230
Speaker 2: you just want to fight? Off you go. And that

911
00:40:54,250 --> 00:40:56,150
Speaker 2: was the same with these two dogs. Like when there

912
00:40:56,210 --> 00:40:58,310
Speaker 2: are two kennels and there's a big thing episode, they'll

913
00:40:58,330 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 2: be going, I'll fight you, I'll fight you, I'll have you,

914
00:41:00,450 --> 00:41:01,770
Speaker 2: I'll have you. And then when you put them together,

915
00:41:01,790 --> 00:41:03,589
Speaker 2: they look at one another and go, oh, I don't really,

916
00:41:03,610 --> 00:41:05,810
Speaker 2: you know, I just want to be friends. So in

917
00:41:05,870 --> 00:41:08,950
Speaker 2: answering your question, do they get on? They did if

918
00:41:08,969 --> 00:41:11,630
Speaker 2: they had to, if they had to. They had no choice.

919
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,060
Speaker 1: Vader's career, you had him for five years. It was

920
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,700
Speaker 1: quite extraordinary. And I was just picking up on some

921
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,339
Speaker 1: of the things that he did. And in part two,

922
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: we're going to break down some of those excellent adventures

923
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:28,500
Speaker 1: you and Vader went on that all sorts of things happened.

924
00:41:28,540 --> 00:41:34,569
Speaker 1: But with Vader, was it in 160 something fleeing offenders

925
00:41:34,610 --> 00:41:35,190
Speaker 1: he apprehended?

926
00:41:35,530 --> 00:41:39,590
Speaker 2: Well, over 160, I think. But that just doesn't include offenders.

927
00:41:39,670 --> 00:41:42,930
Speaker 2: I think that includes Well, it does include people that

928
00:41:42,969 --> 00:41:46,450
Speaker 2: the dogs have saved lives, people who run off to

929
00:41:46,530 --> 00:41:49,810
Speaker 2: hurt themselves, people who are missing, all that type of stuff.

930
00:41:50,270 --> 00:41:53,009
Speaker 2: So it's a story people don't really focus on. I

931
00:41:53,030 --> 00:41:55,710
Speaker 2: focus a lot on it because it's fine to go

932
00:41:55,750 --> 00:41:58,489
Speaker 2: and catch a criminal, but when you save a life,

933
00:41:58,750 --> 00:42:01,549
Speaker 2: it's more important. I mean, it feels good when you

934
00:42:01,570 --> 00:42:03,990
Speaker 2: track somebody who's belted an 80-year-old woman and stole a handbag.

935
00:42:04,030 --> 00:42:07,509
Speaker 2: That feels great. but it probably feels better when you

936
00:42:07,530 --> 00:42:10,490
Speaker 2: can bring mum home to a hubby and two kids

937
00:42:10,570 --> 00:42:14,730
Speaker 2: or whatever, or a man home to his family as well.

938
00:42:14,790 --> 00:42:16,690
Speaker 2: That's just the best feeling.

939
00:42:16,489 --> 00:42:18,850
Speaker 1: In the world. Tell us one where he's found a

940
00:42:18,870 --> 00:42:21,330
Speaker 1: missing person or saved a life or whatever. Have you

941
00:42:21,350 --> 00:42:22,370
Speaker 1: got any examples there?

942
00:42:22,650 --> 00:42:26,780
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I placed up between Port Douglas and Cairns.

943
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,700
Speaker 2: There was a young lady there who had decided she'd

944
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:34,630
Speaker 2: had enough of a partnership breakdown. She had two young

945
00:42:34,910 --> 00:42:38,310
Speaker 2: children two young little boys and she took a whole

946
00:42:38,330 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 2: heap of tablets and we've located her vehicle on the

947
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 2: side of a river with bushland there um i'd just

948
00:42:46,060 --> 00:42:47,940
Speaker 2: been to a shooting believe it or not i've just

949
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,810
Speaker 2: been to where where somebody got shot and managed to

950
00:42:50,870 --> 00:42:54,770
Speaker 2: tackle a bloke but then it's like it it is

951
00:42:54,810 --> 00:42:56,890
Speaker 2: another thing that people don't understand is i'm sitting on

952
00:42:56,930 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 2: top of this bloke and they're The radio's going off. Oh, 7.50,

953
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:01,890
Speaker 2: you're there? Yeah, 7.50, received. They said, oh, we've got

954
00:43:01,910 --> 00:43:03,410
Speaker 2: a job for you. Here I'm sitting on a bloke

955
00:43:03,430 --> 00:43:06,150
Speaker 2: who's just been, who's just had a tackle with a firearm.

956
00:43:06,170 --> 00:43:07,569
Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden they go on. There's

957
00:43:07,610 --> 00:43:09,770
Speaker 2: no debrief. It's just, can you get up there quickly?

958
00:43:09,790 --> 00:43:11,330
Speaker 2: You know, we've got this female. And off you just

959
00:43:11,370 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 2: jump in the car. You don't even think twice about it.

960
00:43:13,140 --> 00:43:17,660
Speaker 2: Off you go. So I digress a little bit. But

961
00:43:17,739 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 2: I turned up there and we've located the vehicle. It

962
00:43:20,020 --> 00:43:22,419
Speaker 2: was two hours old by this stage at least, probably

963
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:24,540
Speaker 2: two and a half hours old. And so the tracking

964
00:43:24,580 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 2: really has gone out of that opportunity. So it's more

965
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,020
Speaker 2: wind scenting. So we put the dog in there to

966
00:43:29,060 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 2: search and pick up the wind scent. I took the

967
00:43:32,140 --> 00:43:35,510
Speaker 2: dog in here. And keeping in mind that Zed doesn't

968
00:43:35,550 --> 00:43:39,470
Speaker 2: like those small animals, we kept going across to this area.

969
00:43:39,530 --> 00:43:42,290
Speaker 2: I'd searched for probably half an hour or so. And

970
00:43:42,350 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 2: the dog kept going to this one spot. When I

971
00:43:44,980 --> 00:43:46,980
Speaker 2: shined the torch on, I saw this crocodile, this massive

972
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,299
Speaker 2: big crocodile there. And I thought, oh, here he goes again. mate,

973
00:43:50,340 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 2: that's yours if you want it, but I'd prefer you

974
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,460
Speaker 2: not to. You're not going to win that one, win

975
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 2: that battle. But he kept going back there. I kept

976
00:43:56,500 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 2: taking him away and searching, searching, searching. Eventually, he went

977
00:43:59,580 --> 00:44:01,910
Speaker 2: over there and I decided I was going to go

978
00:44:01,950 --> 00:44:05,630
Speaker 2: over there and we located this young lady underneath a

979
00:44:05,690 --> 00:44:08,630
Speaker 2: log on the other side, probably close to, well, it

980
00:44:08,670 --> 00:44:14,529
Speaker 2: was close, near the crocodile. And yeah, yeah. So not

981
00:44:14,590 --> 00:44:16,779
Speaker 2: only had we just got her in time because we

982
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:18,419
Speaker 2: got a phone call a couple of days later after

983
00:44:18,460 --> 00:44:20,740
Speaker 2: we got her out of the bush to say if

984
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:22,760
Speaker 2: she had another half an hour, she would have been dead.

985
00:44:22,860 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: With the drugs. From the drugs.

986
00:44:25,070 --> 00:44:25,700
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

987
00:44:25,910 --> 00:44:29,029
Speaker 1: And the crocodiles. The area that you're working, Cairns, were

988
00:44:29,050 --> 00:44:29,990
Speaker 1: you based in Cairns?

989
00:44:30,370 --> 00:44:32,469
Speaker 2: I was, yeah. That's right. All my time I spent

990
00:44:32,489 --> 00:44:32,810
Speaker 2: in Cairns.

991
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,330
Speaker 1: Cairns is lovely, but it's an area that you can't swim,

992
00:44:36,390 --> 00:44:39,790
Speaker 1: you can't go here, there's snakes, there's this, and like

993
00:44:39,850 --> 00:44:43,629
Speaker 1: running through cane fields, in waterways, all that.

994
00:44:44,270 --> 00:44:46,800
Speaker 2: That's the difference between Queensland coppers and East of Wales coppers,

995
00:44:46,820 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 2: you're soft, you're soft.

996
00:44:48,980 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: We're just not.

997
00:44:49,930 --> 00:44:50,870
Speaker 2: In rugby league as well.

998
00:44:50,989 --> 00:44:54,390
Speaker 1: Anyway, we'll cross that part later. We're just not stupid.

999
00:44:54,430 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 1: Beautiful beaches, you just can't swim in them. If the

1000
00:44:57,460 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 1: crocodiles don't get you, what is it, the jellyfish will

1001
00:45:00,540 --> 00:45:02,760
Speaker 1: get you or different things.

1002
00:45:03,219 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 2: Another story, I was chasing a bloke one day with

1003
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,320
Speaker 2: a firearm. He'd let off a couple of shots. I mean, people,

1004
00:45:09,420 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 2: we talk about this type of stuff as if it's

1005
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,859
Speaker 2: just another job, and it is. Who would think that

1006
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:15,580
Speaker 2: somebody let off a shot in the middle of Cairns?

1007
00:45:15,980 --> 00:45:17,339
Speaker 2: But he did. He fired off a couple of shots,

1008
00:45:17,380 --> 00:45:21,509
Speaker 2: and it was a knock. Not a job that's coming through,

1009
00:45:21,550 --> 00:45:23,609
Speaker 2: but it happened. You know, you got the shot. So

1010
00:45:23,670 --> 00:45:25,819
Speaker 2: off I went into the bush chasing this bloke with

1011
00:45:25,860 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 2: the dog, obviously. I think I had Axel at this stage,

1012
00:45:28,020 --> 00:45:31,779
Speaker 2: which was my second last dog. And Axel was going

1013
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,700
Speaker 2: through the bush. And as I've come past this creek bed,

1014
00:45:35,739 --> 00:45:39,630
Speaker 2: a snake's come out. The snake's come out between myself

1015
00:45:39,690 --> 00:45:43,169
Speaker 2: and the dog. And when you pull on that line,

1016
00:45:43,190 --> 00:45:45,170
Speaker 2: the dog stops and comes back to you. Basically, oh,

1017
00:45:45,190 --> 00:45:47,969
Speaker 2: I must have lost track. So... When I seen the snake,

1018
00:45:48,010 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 2: I stopped all of a sudden because I shit myself

1019
00:45:49,660 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 2: because I don't like snakes. And the dog's gone, oh,

1020
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 2: he wants me to come back. And I've gone, no, no, no,

1021
00:45:55,620 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 2: I'm saying stay, stay, stay. But the dog started coming

1022
00:45:58,420 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 2: back to me. So I ran towards the snake and

1023
00:45:59,900 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 2: it bit me on the bloody chin. It's a red-bellied black,

1024
00:46:03,060 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 2: so pretty dangerous snake. It wasn't like a little one.

1025
00:46:06,300 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1026
00:46:06,739 --> 00:46:10,870
Speaker 2: But I always learned that if you, the myth, you

1027
00:46:10,910 --> 00:46:14,390
Speaker 2: listen to stuff, they say that if you wear long pants,

1028
00:46:14,430 --> 00:46:17,860
Speaker 2: the snake's not going to get through the cloth. So

1029
00:46:17,910 --> 00:46:20,149
Speaker 2: I just walked out with the dog. I just contacted comms.

1030
00:46:20,210 --> 00:46:22,089
Speaker 2: I said, bit my snake. I'm on my way back

1031
00:46:22,170 --> 00:46:24,190
Speaker 2: to the location. And what I should have done is

1032
00:46:24,230 --> 00:46:26,890
Speaker 2: lay down and strap myself up with a bandage. Where

1033
00:46:26,910 --> 00:46:28,430
Speaker 2: I was getting the bandage from, I don't know. But anyway,

1034
00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:30,489
Speaker 2: so I went back. And when the ambulance came to look,

1035
00:46:30,530 --> 00:46:32,910
Speaker 2: I had two fang marks in the shin. So it

1036
00:46:32,950 --> 00:46:36,950
Speaker 2: actually got me. And they didn't put any venom into me. Luckily,

1037
00:46:37,010 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 2: I did spend time at the hospital. Yeah, lots of

1038
00:46:39,300 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 2: snakes and spiders up here.

1039
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,750
Speaker 1: Yeah, and running around, you set a cracking pace. You

1040
00:46:44,790 --> 00:46:48,589
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier on that you're running as quick as you

1041
00:46:48,630 --> 00:46:50,589
Speaker 1: can with the dog. So if the dog's taking off,

1042
00:46:50,630 --> 00:46:52,989
Speaker 1: you're not trying to hold him back. So almost to

1043
00:46:53,010 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 1: the full sprint.

1044
00:46:54,500 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 2: Oh, for sure. Exactly, yeah, that's what you're doing. You're

1045
00:46:57,460 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 2: trying to catch them. And I always used to like

1046
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,060
Speaker 2: the offenders because I knew as soon as they turned

1047
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 2: back and looked back at you, you knew you had them.

1048
00:47:06,460 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 2: because you knew they were tired. That's when you knew.

1049
00:47:08,620 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 2: Did you learn.

1050
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:11,980
Speaker 1: That from your martial arts, someone that's looking up at

1051
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: the clock, how long has this round got to go,

1052
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:15,020
Speaker 1: or stuff like that?

1053
00:47:15,780 --> 00:47:19,670
Speaker 2: That was usually me looking at the clock. If I

1054
00:47:19,690 --> 00:47:21,410
Speaker 2: wasn't on the floor knocked out, one of the two.

1055
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,770
Speaker 1: Yeah. But, well, look, the experience. And did you find

1056
00:47:25,810 --> 00:47:30,569
Speaker 1: the dogs and yourself with working with the dogs, as

1057
00:47:30,610 --> 00:47:34,649
Speaker 1: the experience got better, the dog became more productive and

1058
00:47:34,989 --> 00:47:40,450
Speaker 1: probably the way you handled him, you became more lethal combination?

1059
00:47:41,070 --> 00:47:43,230
Speaker 2: I always think that it takes a long time. Even

1060
00:47:43,250 --> 00:47:44,820
Speaker 2: though you do that course, you come off course, it

1061
00:47:44,860 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 2: does take another six, eight months before you really understand

1062
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,049
Speaker 2: the dog. And I had that drama with it. And

1063
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 2: probably even worse is when you change, I think I

1064
00:47:53,100 --> 00:47:55,180
Speaker 2: mentioned this before, when you change from one dog to another,

1065
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,140
Speaker 2: you just want it to be like the old times

1066
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:02,140
Speaker 2: and sometimes it just isn't. So Vader was a classic

1067
00:48:02,180 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 2: example of that. For the first three months, and I

1068
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:05,610
Speaker 2: was used to catching a lot of people with my

1069
00:48:05,660 --> 00:48:10,009
Speaker 2: old dogs, even catching sticks in the face with Zed,

1070
00:48:10,030 --> 00:48:14,270
Speaker 2: I really struggled with Vader because he tracked totally different.

1071
00:48:14,950 --> 00:48:16,810
Speaker 2: And I really struggled with him and It was only

1072
00:48:16,830 --> 00:48:19,410
Speaker 2: when I gave him to another handler, a bloke who

1073
00:48:19,450 --> 00:48:21,629
Speaker 2: was training with us, and I said, mate, you've got

1074
00:48:21,670 --> 00:48:23,969
Speaker 2: no preconceived ideas of this dog. I just want you

1075
00:48:23,989 --> 00:48:25,029
Speaker 2: to run a track with him. So I had a

1076
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:27,859
Speaker 2: person run off, and I got the dog. I got

1077
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 2: him to handle the dog, and he just followed this track,

1078
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:31,779
Speaker 2: and I just watched the dog, and the dog was

1079
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 2: going so fast. I went, oh, wow, I didn't see this,

1080
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,540
Speaker 2: whereas Zed was very methodical and quite slow when he

1081
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:39,820
Speaker 2: was tracking. He was always accurate, but the problem is

1082
00:48:39,860 --> 00:48:42,060
Speaker 2: the offenders were getting away. This dog wouldn't let them

1083
00:48:42,100 --> 00:48:42,500
Speaker 2: get away.

1084
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,969
Speaker 1: So it sounds like he was driven very much by

1085
00:48:46,010 --> 00:48:47,030
Speaker 1: the thrill of the chase.

1086
00:48:47,430 --> 00:48:51,030
Speaker 2: Exactly, yeah. And we talk about that, that some dogs

1087
00:48:51,090 --> 00:48:52,870
Speaker 2: just want to work. He just wanted to work. He

1088
00:48:52,890 --> 00:48:54,270
Speaker 2: just wanted to hop in that police car. Every time

1089
00:48:54,290 --> 00:48:56,250
Speaker 2: that police car came past, he wanted to jump in

1090
00:48:56,310 --> 00:48:57,230
Speaker 2: and off to go to work.

1091
00:48:57,830 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 1: The shifts, how long could you work them for? How

1092
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,100
Speaker 1: long could you have them out on a job?

1093
00:49:02,980 --> 00:49:07,020
Speaker 2: Well, come sieges, we would have them out six, seven

1094
00:49:07,060 --> 00:49:11,900
Speaker 2: hours sometimes. Basically static. Um, some tracks, I mean, I

1095
00:49:11,940 --> 00:49:14,300
Speaker 2: had tracks that were one of one track was just massive.

1096
00:49:14,340 --> 00:49:16,410
Speaker 2: It was, it was long. It was seven or eight

1097
00:49:16,530 --> 00:49:19,900
Speaker 2: kilometers and you know, over five, six hours or something

1098
00:49:19,940 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 2: like that. But, um, and we would, uh, a couple

1099
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:28,940
Speaker 2: of times when you'd see an offender and that he'd

1100
00:49:28,980 --> 00:49:30,899
Speaker 2: escape into a vehicle and then you'd see him again.

1101
00:49:30,940 --> 00:49:33,259
Speaker 2: So he'd be constantly just turning up, you know, just

1102
00:49:33,340 --> 00:49:35,720
Speaker 2: one step behind all the time. Eventually we got our man,

1103
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,700
Speaker 2: you know, and every time, every time that happens and

1104
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 2: there's any baddies listening, it We're eventually going to get–

1105
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:45,550
Speaker 2: eventually we'll get there. You always mess up. You can't

1106
00:49:45,570 --> 00:49:49,950
Speaker 2: help yourself. And eventually we're going to get hold of you.

1107
00:49:50,090 --> 00:49:52,370
Speaker 1: I like your attitude. You're still speaking to the bad

1108
00:49:52,390 --> 00:49:53,469
Speaker 1: guys down the camera now.

1109
00:49:53,550 --> 00:49:55,290
Speaker 2: I like it. Exactly.

1110
00:49:55,330 --> 00:49:56,060
Speaker 1: We're coming for you.

1111
00:49:56,989 --> 00:50:01,730
Speaker 2: Exactly. It's like you can keep going. And this is

1112
00:50:01,770 --> 00:50:05,190
Speaker 2: probably a good story to tell. And there was a

1113
00:50:05,230 --> 00:50:09,790
Speaker 2: bloke by the name of Graeme Potter. He committed a

1114
00:50:09,810 --> 00:50:11,710
Speaker 2: murder in New South Wales.

1115
00:50:12,030 --> 00:50:16,149
Speaker 1: That was Kim Barry, I think it was.

1116
00:50:16,270 --> 00:50:18,150
Speaker 2: Kim Barry, that's correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1117
00:50:18,210 --> 00:50:19,010
Speaker 1: Beheaded her.

1118
00:50:19,450 --> 00:50:19,870
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1119
00:50:19,890 --> 00:50:23,049
Speaker 1: That was a horrible crime. Yeah, 81, I think it was.

1120
00:50:23,690 --> 00:50:27,089
Speaker 1: I worked with one of the detectives that led the investigation.

1121
00:50:27,190 --> 00:50:31,030
Speaker 1: I think Jeff McDowell worked on it. And I remember

1122
00:50:31,070 --> 00:50:34,410
Speaker 1: him telling me about it. It was a horrendous crime.

1123
00:50:34,469 --> 00:50:36,910
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if she was 19 or around that age,

1124
00:50:36,950 --> 00:50:41,569
Speaker 1: but beheaded her and dumped the body in the bush

1125
00:50:41,700 --> 00:50:42,569
Speaker 1: down near Wollongong.

1126
00:50:42,739 --> 00:50:46,940
Speaker 2: That's right, yeah. Quite a gruesome murder. And he did

1127
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:48,900
Speaker 2: his life sentence, so he did his life sentence, but

1128
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:51,820
Speaker 2: then he got tied up with organised crime and he

1129
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:57,380
Speaker 2: was tied up with some drug running, allegedly. I don't

1130
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:58,839
Speaker 2: know whether it's gone to court yet, but, you know,

1131
00:50:58,860 --> 00:51:01,009
Speaker 2: he was on the run for 12 years before he

1132
00:51:01,050 --> 00:51:04,469
Speaker 2: got caught. So, you know, you just– and that was

1133
00:51:04,510 --> 00:51:07,489
Speaker 2: by myself. I found him. But, you know, it just

1134
00:51:07,530 --> 00:51:09,710
Speaker 2: goes to show that even after 12 years, it may

1135
00:51:09,730 --> 00:51:11,489
Speaker 2: be five minutes, it may be 12 years later, it

1136
00:51:11,530 --> 00:51:13,430
Speaker 2: may be 10 years later. We don't know. But, you know,

1137
00:51:13,469 --> 00:51:15,089
Speaker 2: eventually it's coming around. Yeah.

1138
00:51:15,790 --> 00:51:18,290
Speaker 1: How did you catch him? What was the circumstances?

1139
00:51:19,270 --> 00:51:22,510
Speaker 2: Working one night– and we have the tactical crime squad

1140
00:51:22,530 --> 00:51:27,580
Speaker 2: here who are– They do all those mostly. They're not

1141
00:51:27,620 --> 00:51:30,220
Speaker 2: the tactical unit as such, like CERT's our tactical unit,

1142
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:32,689
Speaker 2: but tactical reconnaissance squad do all the fairly high-risk jobs

1143
00:51:32,730 --> 00:51:37,130
Speaker 2: that probably aren't qualified for CERT. But I was sitting

1144
00:51:37,150 --> 00:51:39,430
Speaker 2: there at my son's place actually having something to eat,

1145
00:51:39,469 --> 00:51:41,250
Speaker 2: and the phone rang, and they said, we're chasing this

1146
00:51:41,290 --> 00:51:45,870
Speaker 2: bloke up at Ravensoak, a small community outside of Cairns.

1147
00:51:45,910 --> 00:51:47,250
Speaker 2: And I said, yeah, no worries at all. And they

1148
00:51:47,290 --> 00:51:48,529
Speaker 2: gave me his name, and I looked him up, and

1149
00:51:48,550 --> 00:51:51,779
Speaker 2: I went, oh, this is pretty serious, right? They just

1150
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:55,060
Speaker 2: wanted a couple of detectives. They had uniformed staff because

1151
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 2: I said, I rang the boss. I said, I don't

1152
00:51:56,940 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 2: think we should be doing this. I think this is

1153
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 2: definitely a search job or at the very least tackle

1154
00:52:00,739 --> 00:52:03,020
Speaker 2: a crime squad. And he said, yeah, that's fine, but

1155
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 2: they're not working. And I said, okay, no worries at all.

1156
00:52:06,140 --> 00:52:09,759
Speaker 2: I said, well, I'll go and do it with them

1157
00:52:09,900 --> 00:52:11,500
Speaker 2: because I didn't want to leave them in the lurch.

1158
00:52:11,540 --> 00:52:14,049
Speaker 2: So we turned up there and they said, oh, chances

1159
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:18,450
Speaker 2: are he's not because he had mastered disguise. He'd been

1160
00:52:18,510 --> 00:52:22,070
Speaker 2: chased a few times before and got away. So anyway,

1161
00:52:22,090 --> 00:52:26,489
Speaker 2: so I decided I'd go up there. And when we

1162
00:52:26,510 --> 00:52:28,570
Speaker 2: went into the house, it was a bit of a squalor.

1163
00:52:28,590 --> 00:52:30,170
Speaker 2: There was a lot of rubbish and that around there.

1164
00:52:30,190 --> 00:52:31,890
Speaker 2: And I really couldn't put the dog, didn't take the

1165
00:52:31,910 --> 00:52:33,770
Speaker 2: dog to the front of the stairs. And the dog

1166
00:52:33,810 --> 00:52:36,029
Speaker 2: indicated somebody's in there. Because when I arrived there, there

1167
00:52:36,050 --> 00:52:37,660
Speaker 2: was a lady came down the stairs and she said,

1168
00:52:38,540 --> 00:52:41,270
Speaker 2: I asked her, she said, nobody here. But proper for

1169
00:52:41,270 --> 00:52:44,089
Speaker 2: 30 years, you know, you know, you go, oh yeah, well, you,

1170
00:52:44,310 --> 00:52:47,700
Speaker 2: you bullshit me lady, you know, I can just tell. And, um,

1171
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:49,660
Speaker 2: so I said, well, there's everybody else in there because

1172
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 2: the dog's going to bite them if they're in there.

1173
00:52:51,700 --> 00:52:53,500
Speaker 2: And she said, no, no, no one's in there. So

1174
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:54,760
Speaker 2: I took the dog to the top of the stairs

1175
00:52:54,820 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 2: and the dog barked a couple of times. And so

1176
00:52:56,940 --> 00:52:59,730
Speaker 2: I knew there was somebody in there. And so I,

1177
00:53:00,020 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 2: but I couldn't, when I went in there, there was

1178
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:02,760
Speaker 2: not a squatter and there were a lot of little

1179
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:04,810
Speaker 2: animals in there, believe it or not, remember, keeping in

1180
00:53:04,830 --> 00:53:06,890
Speaker 2: mind that we had little dogs and cats and stuff

1181
00:53:06,910 --> 00:53:09,589
Speaker 2: like that just in this house. It was disgusting. So

1182
00:53:09,630 --> 00:53:11,529
Speaker 2: I decided to take the dog back. and just do

1183
00:53:11,570 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 2: a hand search. And eventually we'd search the house, but

1184
00:53:16,739 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 2: I hadn't searched every room. And being a dog handler,

1185
00:53:20,860 --> 00:53:24,890
Speaker 2: you're searching, you find people in sofa beds, people in ceilings,

1186
00:53:24,950 --> 00:53:27,150
Speaker 2: people under this. I just know, you know, you've got

1187
00:53:27,170 --> 00:53:30,350
Speaker 2: to do a really good search. So I stayed there.

1188
00:53:30,390 --> 00:53:34,090
Speaker 2: The detectives went back. and probably have coffee and do

1189
00:53:34,110 --> 00:53:35,870
Speaker 2: whatever they do because they're not what the detectives like.

1190
00:53:35,890 --> 00:53:36,830
Speaker 2: But anyway, we'll worry about that.

1191
00:53:36,870 --> 00:53:40,209
Speaker 1: Typing up their statement, preparing for court, working hard, trying

1192
00:53:40,250 --> 00:53:41,410
Speaker 1: to solve their next case.

1193
00:53:42,270 --> 00:53:46,989
Speaker 2: You say banana, I say banana or something. So I

1194
00:53:47,010 --> 00:53:49,800
Speaker 2: stayed back with one of the detectives and I searched

1195
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:52,620
Speaker 2: the house. And I eventually came into one of the

1196
00:53:52,660 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 2: back rooms there that had been searched before. And I

1197
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,180
Speaker 2: saw this piece on top of the bed, bunk bed

1198
00:53:58,219 --> 00:54:00,870
Speaker 2: beside me was this piece of plywood And I saw

1199
00:54:00,910 --> 00:54:02,770
Speaker 2: the plywood move and I went, so I took a

1200
00:54:02,790 --> 00:54:05,270
Speaker 2: step back because this bloke had been done for murder

1201
00:54:05,310 --> 00:54:07,870
Speaker 2: before and I didn't want to take too many chances.

1202
00:54:07,890 --> 00:54:10,360
Speaker 2: So I stepped back and I basically called him out

1203
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:12,620
Speaker 2: and out he came. And he was a bit half

1204
00:54:12,700 --> 00:54:15,580
Speaker 2: smart at first, but then he was, you know, he'd

1205
00:54:15,620 --> 00:54:17,779
Speaker 2: come around a little bit and gave me false names

1206
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:19,740
Speaker 2: and that. But I wasn't sure whether to be scared

1207
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 2: of this murderer in front of me because the detective

1208
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:26,089
Speaker 2: came in behind me with his gun drawn. And so

1209
00:54:26,130 --> 00:54:28,190
Speaker 2: I don't know which one to be more scared of,

1210
00:54:28,210 --> 00:54:29,670
Speaker 2: you know, whether I was going to get shot in

1211
00:54:29,690 --> 00:54:30,930
Speaker 2: the back or whether I was going to get murdered

1212
00:54:30,950 --> 00:54:33,180
Speaker 2: from the front. But yeah, so.

1213
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,319
Speaker 1: Chaos that can happen. Well, that's a good arrest. Like,

1214
00:54:36,770 --> 00:54:38,819
Speaker 1: He said he did his life sentence and people would

1215
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,219
Speaker 1: be confused. How do you get out and be on

1216
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:43,880
Speaker 1: the run again? But he did his life sentence and

1217
00:54:43,900 --> 00:54:46,580
Speaker 1: then went down to Melbourne, got tied up with some

1218
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:48,440
Speaker 1: stuff there. And I think that's what he was on

1219
00:54:48,460 --> 00:54:52,310
Speaker 1: the run for. But well, you know, a rest like that,

1220
00:54:52,489 --> 00:54:55,450
Speaker 1: it always, you go home after a day like that

1221
00:54:55,489 --> 00:54:56,850
Speaker 1: or a night like that. And it gives you a

1222
00:54:56,850 --> 00:54:59,670
Speaker 1: bit of satisfaction, doesn't it? Taking someone like that off

1223
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:00,110
Speaker 1: the streets.

1224
00:55:00,450 --> 00:55:04,049
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And it made the media, it was massive in

1225
00:55:04,210 --> 00:55:06,009
Speaker 2: the whole of Australia. And even overseas, look at the

1226
00:55:06,030 --> 00:55:08,830
Speaker 2: BBC had a story on it. Like, it was just fantastic.

1227
00:55:09,010 --> 00:55:10,970
Speaker 2: But they didn't show me or they just, you could

1228
00:55:10,989 --> 00:55:13,450
Speaker 2: hear my voice a mile away. And, you know, it does,

1229
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 2: it's such a good feeling. And, you know, it's, yeah.

1230
00:55:17,460 --> 00:55:19,799
Speaker 1: David, I think you've got to acknowledge the detectives have

1231
00:55:19,820 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 1: got to take the credit for the arrest, not you guys,

1232
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,260
Speaker 1: the dog squad guys at arrest.

1233
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 2: Gary, you've just gone quiet there. Can you go again? Yeah.

1234
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:27,610
Speaker 2: Just can't hear you.

1235
00:55:30,750 --> 00:55:35,189
Speaker 1: No, it's a crazy world. Now, we'll take a break now.

1236
00:55:35,210 --> 00:55:36,950
Speaker 1: When we get back, we're going to break down some

1237
00:55:36,989 --> 00:55:40,090
Speaker 1: of the adventures you and Vader have had, which I

1238
00:55:40,130 --> 00:55:44,270
Speaker 1: think is, for one person's career, is quite extraordinary, the

1239
00:55:44,310 --> 00:55:47,390
Speaker 1: amount of arrests. But that is the nature of dog work,

1240
00:55:47,469 --> 00:55:51,430
Speaker 1: isn't it? Like as a dog handler. And just so

1241
00:55:51,450 --> 00:55:54,569
Speaker 1: people listening get a sense of it. So You turn

1242
00:55:54,610 --> 00:55:56,850
Speaker 1: up this chaos of the crime scene or an incident's

1243
00:55:56,870 --> 00:56:01,189
Speaker 1: happened and we can't find who's there. Invariably, the dog

1244
00:56:01,210 --> 00:56:04,050
Speaker 1: handler's called there with their dog to help us track

1245
00:56:04,090 --> 00:56:06,569
Speaker 1: down the offender. And that's why you get yourself into

1246
00:56:06,610 --> 00:56:08,350
Speaker 1: so much trouble because you're at the thick of it.

1247
00:56:08,700 --> 00:56:11,259
Speaker 2: But often the stats that come through and they say

1248
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:16,259
Speaker 2: that people will see three or four critical incidents in

1249
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:19,100
Speaker 2: their lives as a normal person, whereas police see two

1250
00:56:19,140 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 2: or 300 in a year or something similar to that.

1251
00:56:21,580 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 2: I don't know the exact figures, but And that's the

1252
00:56:24,060 --> 00:56:28,299
Speaker 2: average police officer. And I'm thinking, well, being a dog handler,

1253
00:56:28,850 --> 00:56:30,950
Speaker 2: I mean, you're well above average. You must be seeing

1254
00:56:30,950 --> 00:56:34,750
Speaker 2: 400 or 500 a year because you've got these, obviously,

1255
00:56:34,770 --> 00:56:39,029
Speaker 2: the people and not degrading their position of sitting behind

1256
00:56:39,070 --> 00:56:41,470
Speaker 2: a desk. But if they're including those in a normal

1257
00:56:41,489 --> 00:56:44,250
Speaker 2: police officer, then, hey, you know, like we're seeing a

1258
00:56:44,270 --> 00:56:45,790
Speaker 2: hell of a lot, seeing a hell of a lot.

1259
00:56:45,710 --> 00:56:49,410
Speaker 1: More than them. And if you've been a frontline police officer,

1260
00:56:49,430 --> 00:56:51,629
Speaker 1: you've been involved in chases. And I know when you're

1261
00:56:51,650 --> 00:56:56,299
Speaker 1: doing chases, especially at night, jumping fences, running around corners,

1262
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:59,760
Speaker 1: taking leaps over areas you probably shouldn't or you wouldn't

1263
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:02,420
Speaker 1: dare if you weren't chasing someone, you take risks. So

1264
00:57:02,460 --> 00:57:05,280
Speaker 1: I would imagine you've collected your fair share of injuries

1265
00:57:05,380 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 1: as well.

1266
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:07,850
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny, Gary. We were looking at it the

1267
00:57:07,870 --> 00:57:10,790
Speaker 2: other day, my wife and I, 41 times, 41 times

1268
00:57:10,850 --> 00:57:14,629
Speaker 2: I've been to emergency over my career. with anything from

1269
00:57:14,690 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 2: snake bites to fractured, obviously fractured nose, cuts and scratches, yeah,

1270
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:23,620
Speaker 2: 41 times. So I think work cover, we're very happy

1271
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:26,960
Speaker 2: to see the back of me.

1272
00:57:26,980 --> 00:57:29,700
Speaker 1: Stop your whinging. It just shows how soft you Queensland

1273
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:33,820
Speaker 1: police are. Well, how about we take a break and

1274
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:37,690
Speaker 1: when we get back, we'll dive into those adventures. Yeah, great.

1275
00:57:37,790 --> 00:57:40,860
Speaker 2: Let's do it. Okay. Cheers. Cheers. Thank you.