1 00:00:03,900 --> 00:00:06,240 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,450 --> 00:00:08,520 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. There's a lot happening in the Telco space right 3 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:13,080 Sean Aylmer: now. Yesterday TPGs share price tumbled after a disappointing profit 4 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:14,639 Sean Aylmer: for the half- year to the end of December. At 5 00:00:14,639 --> 00:00:18,270 Sean Aylmer: the same time, Aussie Broadband made a $ 466 million takeover 6 00:00:18,300 --> 00:00:22,020 Sean Aylmer: bid for rival internet provider Superloop. And there's been plenty 7 00:00:22,020 --> 00:00:24,000 Sean Aylmer: of news as well as about the two big plays 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,040 Sean Aylmer: in the market with Optus last week revealing just how 9 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,550 Sean Aylmer: much its major outage cost and Telstra the week before 10 00:00:29,550 --> 00:00:32,278 Sean Aylmer: posting a $ 1 billion net profit driven by growth in 11 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,849 Sean Aylmer: its mobile business. As I said, plenty happening, so we 12 00:00:35,850 --> 00:00:38,250 Sean Aylmer: need an expert who can take us through it. Paul 13 00:00:38,250 --> 00:00:42,900 Sean Aylmer: Budde is a telecommunications management and business consultant, and through 14 00:00:42,900 --> 00:00:46,500 Sean Aylmer: his business, Paul Budde Consultancy has advised more than 100 15 00:00:46,500 --> 00:00:49,590 Sean Aylmer: investment companies on transactions. He's also worked with governments around 16 00:00:49,590 --> 00:00:53,489 Sean Aylmer: the world on Telco strategies, particularly relating to national broadband 17 00:00:53,489 --> 00:00:55,620 Sean Aylmer: networks. Paul, welcome to Fear and Greed. 18 00:00:56,010 --> 00:00:56,850 Paul Budde: Good morning, Sean. 19 00:00:57,870 --> 00:01:00,870 Sean Aylmer: Now Paul, you are talking to someone who knows very 20 00:01:00,870 --> 00:01:03,150 Sean Aylmer: little about Telco, so I'm going to ask for a 21 00:01:03,150 --> 00:01:05,969 Sean Aylmer: bit of a 101 first before we get into results 22 00:01:05,969 --> 00:01:09,659 Sean Aylmer: and mergers and things like that. Obviously, we have a 23 00:01:09,660 --> 00:01:13,079 Sean Aylmer: broadband network. The NBN has been rolled out across Australia. 24 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,810 Sean Aylmer: We have a 5G network, which people like Telstra and 25 00:01:15,810 --> 00:01:19,500 Sean Aylmer: that are using. When we talk about these smaller players, 26 00:01:19,590 --> 00:01:24,509 Sean Aylmer: TPG, Superloop, Aussie Broadband, do they just tap in and get 27 00:01:24,509 --> 00:01:27,210 Sean Aylmer: access to the NBN? Is that how they operate? 28 00:01:27,900 --> 00:01:32,100 Paul Budde: Yeah, what we've seen, Sean, is that when the NBN 29 00:01:32,100 --> 00:01:36,390 Paul Budde: actually was introduced, it became a wholesale service. Before that 30 00:01:36,390 --> 00:01:40,318 Paul Budde: time, Telstra was basically and a wholesaler and a retailer. 31 00:01:40,650 --> 00:01:44,759 Paul Budde: Then some 20 years ago, the government decided to build 32 00:01:44,759 --> 00:01:49,650 Paul Budde: a wholesale network being the NBN, and then everybody basically 33 00:01:49,650 --> 00:01:54,570 Paul Budde: could have equal access to that network that the NBN company then 34 00:01:54,570 --> 00:01:57,540 Paul Budde: offers to the market. That has been a big change 35 00:01:57,780 --> 00:02:00,840 Paul Budde: when that happened some 20 years ago. Now at the 36 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,750 Paul Budde: moment, if we talk about Telstar, Optus, TPG, et cetera, 37 00:02:03,750 --> 00:02:08,130 Paul Budde: they're retailers. And at the same time of course, it's 38 00:02:08,130 --> 00:02:11,190 Paul Budde: important to realize that the NBN has nothing to do 39 00:02:11,190 --> 00:02:15,269 Paul Budde: with the mobile network. The mobile network is independent, and 40 00:02:15,270 --> 00:02:18,059 Paul Budde: the operators, Telstra, Optus, a Vodafone, all have their own 41 00:02:18,059 --> 00:02:22,350 Paul Budde: network on which they offer the mobile services, which are 42 00:02:22,590 --> 00:02:24,570 Paul Budde: basically the big growth market still. 43 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,959 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so what about the smaller players like Aussie Broadband, 44 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,740 Sean Aylmer: Superloop and they talk about their mobile numbers rising. Are 45 00:02:31,740 --> 00:02:36,900 Sean Aylmer: they piggybacking off the major three's network or are they 46 00:02:36,900 --> 00:02:38,520 Sean Aylmer: actually talking about something different to that? 47 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,540 Paul Budde: A bit of background, again, Sean, if you go back 48 00:02:42,540 --> 00:02:46,590 Paul Budde: 30 years ago when competition started, then slowly we saw 49 00:02:46,590 --> 00:02:51,900 Paul Budde: the Telstra market share erode and that eroded to approximately 50 00:02:51,990 --> 00:02:58,139 Paul Budde: 60%, 65, 60%. So now 30 years later, Telstra is still 51 00:02:58,139 --> 00:03:02,910 Paul Budde: the dominant player, it still has 55, 60% market share. And then 52 00:03:02,910 --> 00:03:05,940 Paul Budde: you've got our Optus, TPG, they have a similar market 53 00:03:05,940 --> 00:03:12,389 Paul Budde: share around 20%. And then all the others, 100 others, are 5% of 54 00:03:12,389 --> 00:03:16,410 Paul Budde: the market. You have to put it in perspective where these 55 00:03:16,559 --> 00:03:20,459 Paul Budde: smaller players are. Aussie Broadband is now close to a billion- 56 00:03:20,460 --> 00:03:23,790 Paul Budde: dollar company, so it's not the small company, but in 57 00:03:24,030 --> 00:03:26,790 Paul Budde: total percentage it's still only one or 2% of the total 58 00:03:26,790 --> 00:03:31,589 Paul Budde: telecommunications market. Now, the smaller players, apart from the three 59 00:03:31,590 --> 00:03:35,640 Paul Budde: that operate their own mobile networks, Telstra, Optus and Vodafone, 60 00:03:35,969 --> 00:03:38,640 Paul Budde: everybody else if you want to operate in the mobile 61 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:42,960 Paul Budde: market, you are a reseller of one of the three 62 00:03:42,990 --> 00:03:47,400 Paul Budde: mobile network operators. So Aussie Broadband, Superloop, et cetera, they 63 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,179 Paul Budde: don't have their own mobile networks. They all operate on 64 00:03:51,179 --> 00:03:54,059 Paul Budde: top of the network from Telstra, Optus, or Vodafone, or 65 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:55,440 Paul Budde: TPG. Sorry. 66 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,110 Sean Aylmer: Fantastic. I've learned a lot in the last three or 67 00:03:58,110 --> 00:04:01,890 Sean Aylmer: four minutes. Let's look at where we are today. Yesterday 68 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,729 Sean Aylmer: we heard that Aussie Broadband was making a bid for 69 00:04:05,730 --> 00:04:10,920 Sean Aylmer: Superloop. Aussie Broadband now has just under 20% of Superloop. I think 70 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:15,150 Sean Aylmer: the bid price was about $ 466 million. Aussie Broadband said 71 00:04:15,390 --> 00:04:17,970 Sean Aylmer: it wants to actually take on some of those bigger 72 00:04:17,970 --> 00:04:21,450 Sean Aylmer: players. What's the story there? Is it just about scale 73 00:04:21,450 --> 00:04:22,529 Sean Aylmer: for these smaller guys? 74 00:04:23,550 --> 00:04:29,669 Paul Budde: Oh, absolutely. It's definitely Aussie Broadband is now becoming the fifth- 75 00:04:29,670 --> 00:04:34,230 Paul Budde: largest Telco in Australia, so it's quite significant in that 76 00:04:34,230 --> 00:04:38,580 Paul Budde: respect, even if it's only relative small player. What you've 77 00:04:38,580 --> 00:04:43,140 Paul Budde: seen is with these organizations, basically they grow through acquisition, 78 00:04:43,529 --> 00:04:45,779 Paul Budde: so as I mentioned, there might be close to a 79 00:04:45,779 --> 00:04:49,289 Paul Budde: hundred telcos around the country and what you then do 80 00:04:49,290 --> 00:04:51,928 Paul Budde: as a small player, you buy up one of the 81 00:04:51,930 --> 00:04:59,669 Paul Budde: smaller ones. That's how quite often these players... Superloop bought Veronet and MyRepublic. Aussie 82 00:04:59,669 --> 00:05:06,059 Paul Budde: Broadband bought Symbio and IPA and IP- Voice company. So that's 83 00:05:06,059 --> 00:05:10,020 Paul Budde: how you see that massive growth. Once again, all relative, 84 00:05:10,020 --> 00:05:13,020 Paul Budde: you have massive growth for these smaller players is happening 85 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:14,190 Paul Budde: in that particular way. 86 00:05:15,178 --> 00:05:18,059 Sean Aylmer: If you look at Aussie Broadband specifically, you said it's 87 00:05:18,059 --> 00:05:21,508 Sean Aylmer: looking at becoming the fifth player. It's certainly done pretty 88 00:05:21,509 --> 00:05:24,270 Sean Aylmer: well share price terms over the past 12 months or 89 00:05:24,270 --> 00:05:26,490 Sean Aylmer: so, I think it's up about 50% or so. Is 90 00:05:26,490 --> 00:05:30,000 Sean Aylmer: that about it growing by acquisition, is it a particularly 91 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,520 Sean Aylmer: good model? I'm trying to get a feel for why 92 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:33,719 Sean Aylmer: people like Aussie Broadband. 93 00:05:34,500 --> 00:05:39,688 Paul Budde: Yeah, I think growing the telecommunications market in general, everybody 94 00:05:39,690 --> 00:05:44,190 Paul Budde: together is about cost- cutting. The overall size of the 95 00:05:44,190 --> 00:05:48,960 Paul Budde: telecommunications market might grow 1%, perhaps 2% per year, but 96 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,800 Paul Budde: some years it would go minus 1%. The overall growth 97 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:57,029 Paul Budde: in the telecommunications market is relatively small, so if you 98 00:05:57,029 --> 00:06:01,080 Paul Budde: want to stay profitable, you have to cut cost. And 99 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,859 Paul Budde: that is possible with new technologies like 5G, 30% more 100 00:06:04,860 --> 00:06:11,130 Paul Budde: efficient, so that's where the operators are sitting. So Aussie 101 00:06:11,130 --> 00:06:16,919 Paul Budde: Broadband, new player, small player, relatively low cost, therefore once 102 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:21,600 Paul Budde: again, relatively more profit. The bigger players like Telstra, Optus 103 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:26,969 Paul Budde: and Vodafone, they all have smaller profit growth based on 104 00:06:26,970 --> 00:06:29,910 Paul Budde: the fact that they need to get that from cost- 105 00:06:29,910 --> 00:06:33,420 Paul Budde: cutting, more so than from acquisition and growth. 106 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:35,609 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Paul, we'll be back in a minute. 107 00:06:41,879 --> 00:06:45,900 Sean Aylmer: I'm speaking to Paul Budde, Telco expert and investment advisor through Paul 108 00:06:45,900 --> 00:06:52,080 Sean Aylmer: Budde consultancy. I suppose the economics of this still kind 109 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,419 Sean Aylmer: of stumps me a little bit. If you are with 110 00:06:54,810 --> 00:06:59,460 Sean Aylmer: reseller, so if you are basically leasing bandwidth spectrum, I'm 111 00:06:59,460 --> 00:07:01,529 Sean Aylmer: not sure the right word is, the ability to provide 112 00:07:01,529 --> 00:07:05,430 Sean Aylmer: mobile services from one of those big three, you are 113 00:07:05,700 --> 00:07:08,460 Sean Aylmer: perhaps getting it at a discount because you are buying 114 00:07:08,460 --> 00:07:11,610 Sean Aylmer: at wholesale, you're buying huge amounts of it. And then 115 00:07:11,820 --> 00:07:14,460 Sean Aylmer: you are backing yourself to be able to sell that 116 00:07:14,460 --> 00:07:16,980 Sean Aylmer: to the customer, to the client and make a profit. 117 00:07:16,980 --> 00:07:19,230 Sean Aylmer: That's in a nutshell how it works? 118 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:24,060 Paul Budde: Yes, you're totally right, Sean. That's how it worked. The NBN 119 00:07:24,210 --> 00:07:26,549 Paul Budde: of course is different, because you can go directly to 120 00:07:26,549 --> 00:07:28,559 Paul Budde: the NBN, you don't have to go to Telstar or 121 00:07:28,559 --> 00:07:32,520 Paul Budde: whatever. You can go directly to the NVN and purchase capacity 122 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,250 Paul Budde: that you want to use for your broadband network. If 123 00:07:35,250 --> 00:07:37,860 Paul Budde: you want to have a mobile service, then yes, you 124 00:07:37,860 --> 00:07:40,619 Paul Budde: have to go to the Telstras of this world, Optus, et 125 00:07:40,620 --> 00:07:44,130 Paul Budde: cetera, and then you have to negotiate an wholesale price. 126 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,459 Paul Budde: And that is then quite often based on a business plan that 127 00:07:47,459 --> 00:07:50,970 Paul Budde: you propose to the operator, to the mobile operator, will 128 00:07:50,970 --> 00:07:54,330 Paul Budde: indicate you how many customers you have, and based on 129 00:07:54,330 --> 00:07:59,130 Paul Budde: that you can negotiate a particular discount or wholesale price, 130 00:07:59,130 --> 00:08:01,769 Paul Budde: whatever you want to call it, and based on that, 131 00:08:01,770 --> 00:08:05,430 Paul Budde: you can then actually start offering your own services as 132 00:08:05,430 --> 00:08:08,820 Paul Budde: basically as an virtual mobile network operator, as they are 133 00:08:08,820 --> 00:08:12,420 Paul Budde: called. You don't own the network, but you are operating 134 00:08:12,420 --> 00:08:13,560 Paul Budde: on top of the network. 135 00:08:14,460 --> 00:08:17,700 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so let's talk about TPG Telecom. It came in 136 00:08:17,700 --> 00:08:20,580 Sean Aylmer: yesterday and your profit came in at $ 49 million. Now that was 137 00:08:20,639 --> 00:08:22,619 Sean Aylmer: way down from the year before, that's net profit, but 138 00:08:22,619 --> 00:08:24,539 Sean Aylmer: the previous year I think it sold some of its 139 00:08:24,540 --> 00:08:27,660 Sean Aylmer: towers and therefore it had an extraordinary profit the year 140 00:08:27,660 --> 00:08:31,680 Sean Aylmer: before. It now is leasing some of those towers back, 141 00:08:31,890 --> 00:08:36,179 Sean Aylmer: therefore higher costs, et cetera. Where does TPG Telecom, which 142 00:08:36,179 --> 00:08:38,310 Sean Aylmer: has been around for a long time and started by 143 00:08:38,549 --> 00:08:43,588 Sean Aylmer: an incredibly successful entrepreneur, where's it sit on this spectrum? 144 00:08:43,590 --> 00:08:46,108 Sean Aylmer: It's somewhere between the big guys and the little guys, 145 00:08:46,110 --> 00:08:46,620 Sean Aylmer: it seems. 146 00:08:47,190 --> 00:08:51,420 Paul Budde: Yeah, it's sitting basically on the similar level as Optus. 147 00:08:51,510 --> 00:08:56,699 Paul Budde: So Optus and TPG are roughly similar in size, similar in market 148 00:08:56,700 --> 00:09:01,140 Paul Budde: share, but then as soon as you are in that 149 00:09:01,140 --> 00:09:04,588 Paul Budde: sort of league, then you have faced the problems that 150 00:09:04,590 --> 00:09:08,280 Paul Budde: I just mentioned. Low growth in the overall market. Growth 151 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:12,419 Paul Budde: in Australia in the mobile market basically comes from migrants, 152 00:09:13,020 --> 00:09:15,990 Paul Budde: new markets coming into the country and they all need 153 00:09:15,990 --> 00:09:19,980 Paul Budde: a mobile phone, so here you are, you've got growth 154 00:09:19,980 --> 00:09:23,760 Paul Budde: in that particular market. Secondly, the growth is coming from 155 00:09:23,940 --> 00:09:26,310 Paul Budde: you and I spending a little bit more on mobile, 156 00:09:26,490 --> 00:09:30,150 Paul Budde: because mobile data and all sorts of services that we 157 00:09:30,150 --> 00:09:33,240 Paul Budde: are using on the mobile network. So that are the two areas 158 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,500 Paul Budde: where growth is coming from on the mobile network. It's 159 00:09:37,500 --> 00:09:42,660 Paul Budde: very difficult to move in between customers. As I mentioned, 160 00:09:42,660 --> 00:09:46,290 Paul Budde: the market shares have not changed that much over decades, 161 00:09:46,590 --> 00:09:49,679 Paul Budde: so it's not really possible that you pinch customers away 162 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,400 Paul Budde: from one to another. That happens, of course, after Optus 163 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:57,300 Paul Budde: had a disaster with its network in September. For a 164 00:09:57,300 --> 00:10:01,530 Paul Budde: time you have some opportunities there, but that levels itself 165 00:10:01,530 --> 00:10:04,078 Paul Budde: out very, very quickly. It's a little bit like the 166 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,750 Paul Budde: banks, if you go to another bank, it doesn't really 167 00:10:06,750 --> 00:10:08,728 Paul Budde: make a difference. If you go to another Telco it 168 00:10:08,820 --> 00:10:11,490 Paul Budde: doesn't really make a big difference, so people stick to 169 00:10:11,490 --> 00:10:15,540 Paul Budde: the networks where they are. There's very little movement between them. 170 00:10:16,110 --> 00:10:18,750 Sean Aylmer: Okay. We might as well finish on Telstra because it 171 00:10:18,750 --> 00:10:22,199 Sean Aylmer: is the gorilla in the market. Certainly, a lot of 172 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,389 Sean Aylmer: shareholders love it. A lot of pensioners love it, because 173 00:10:24,389 --> 00:10:26,549 Sean Aylmer: it's a great dividend payer, so there's all that side 174 00:10:26,549 --> 00:10:29,310 Sean Aylmer: to it, but it hasn't actually shown that much growth 175 00:10:29,699 --> 00:10:34,170 Sean Aylmer: really in recent times. What's the outlook for Telstra and 176 00:10:34,380 --> 00:10:37,740 Sean Aylmer: what's its strategy? It's doing well in mobiles. Certainly last 177 00:10:37,740 --> 00:10:40,260 Sean Aylmer: week when it came out with its results, it seems 178 00:10:40,260 --> 00:10:43,049 Sean Aylmer: to be doing well in mobiles, but where does Telstra go? 179 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,330 Paul Budde: Yeah, Telstra is of course the incumbent, and that is 180 00:10:48,330 --> 00:10:53,670 Paul Budde: definitely visible in the way it has its earnings and 181 00:10:53,670 --> 00:10:57,300 Paul Budde: revenues and profits, et cetera. What you see is basically, 182 00:10:57,570 --> 00:11:00,208 Paul Budde: if you look at the overall market over the last 183 00:11:00,210 --> 00:11:04,559 Paul Budde: 20 or 30 years, the big change has been to the big 184 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:09,330 Paul Budde: tech companies, the Amazons, the Facebooks, et cetera. They are 185 00:11:09,330 --> 00:11:12,300 Paul Budde: the big companies that are making an enormous amount of 186 00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:15,929 Paul Budde: money. 30% of the total IT market in the whole 187 00:11:15,929 --> 00:11:18,900 Paul Budde: world is in the hands of five or six of 188 00:11:18,900 --> 00:11:22,020 Paul Budde: these players. That's where the money is. That's where the 189 00:11:22,020 --> 00:11:25,559 Paul Budde: profits are. That's where the action in the market is. 190 00:11:25,830 --> 00:11:29,100 Paul Budde: The Telcos have lost that game. They never really, none 191 00:11:29,100 --> 00:11:33,630 Paul Budde: of them, not only Telstra, BT, Deutsche Telecom, AT & T, you 192 00:11:33,630 --> 00:11:36,360 Paul Budde: name it, none of these telcos were able to move 193 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,989 Paul Budde: into that market. So in that respect, they are sitting 194 00:11:39,990 --> 00:11:44,250 Paul Budde: in the utility end of the market, and that has limited 195 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,850 Paul Budde: its growth. There's not that much growth in the utility 196 00:11:47,850 --> 00:11:50,760 Paul Budde: side of the company. That's what I mentioned, 1- 2% 197 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,750 Paul Budde: per year is all what you can get overall. Once 198 00:11:54,750 --> 00:11:58,588 Paul Budde: again, not just Australia, internationally, that's what the Telcos are 199 00:11:58,590 --> 00:12:01,679 Paul Budde: getting. And that's, of course, the market where Telstra operates 200 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:06,030 Paul Budde: in and therefore that is its future. That is where 201 00:12:06,030 --> 00:12:11,250 Paul Budde: it sits, not high growth, heavily cost- cutting, using artificial 202 00:12:11,250 --> 00:12:16,890 Paul Budde: intelligence, utilizing cloud computing. The mobile network, this is more efficient. 203 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:21,030 Paul Budde: Six G coming in five or 10 years time, again, 204 00:12:21,090 --> 00:12:25,530 Paul Budde: more efficient, so that's how they can keep that profitability. 205 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:30,389 Paul Budde: But overall growth remains very, very low, particularly if you 206 00:12:30,389 --> 00:12:34,199 Paul Budde: compare that with the big tech companies that are incredibly 207 00:12:34,199 --> 00:12:39,059 Paul Budde: powerful, incredibly wealthy, and that's where all the money basically 208 00:12:39,059 --> 00:12:43,470 Paul Budde: is going in relation to the overall information technology and 209 00:12:43,470 --> 00:12:44,759 Paul Budde: communications market. 210 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,139 Sean Aylmer: I love interviews like these, because I end them knowing 211 00:12:49,139 --> 00:12:51,270 Sean Aylmer: a lot more than what I did when I started 212 00:12:51,270 --> 00:12:53,369 Sean Aylmer: them. Paul, thank you very much for talking to Fear 213 00:12:53,369 --> 00:12:53,880 Sean Aylmer: and Greed. 214 00:12:54,208 --> 00:12:55,290 Paul Budde: My pleasure, Sean. 215 00:12:55,830 --> 00:12:59,610 Sean Aylmer: That was Paul Budde, Telco expert and investment advisor through 216 00:12:59,610 --> 00:13:02,490 Sean Aylmer: Paul Budde Consultancy. This is the Fear and Greed business 217 00:13:02,490 --> 00:13:05,429 Sean Aylmer: interview. Remember, this is general information only and you should 218 00:13:05,429 --> 00:13:08,880 Sean Aylmer: seek professional advice before making investment decisions. Join us every 219 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,100 Sean Aylmer: morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's 220 00:13:11,100 --> 00:13:14,189 Sean Aylmer: best business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.