Speaker 1: I'm Andrew Rule. This is Life and Crimes. I've been
Speaker 1: away for many weeks and I've missed the entire Greg
Speaker 1: Lynn trial, the one and Gatta drama. But luckily I've
Speaker 1: got back and we have here two people in the
Speaker 1: studio who have spent a large part of their recent
Speaker 1: life watching this very diligently. I hope Laura Placella and
Speaker 1: Miles Proost are their names, names that our listeners will
Speaker 1: be familiar with. And what I'm going to do is
Speaker 1: just ask them one then the other and let them
Speaker 1: tell us what has happened. Laura, ladies, first, thank you Andrew.
Speaker 2: Well, we're now in the fifth week of this long trial,
Speaker 2: but the end is near. There's light at the end
Speaker 2: of the tunnel. But to catch you up might just
Speaker 2: provide a bit of a refresher as well for our
Speaker 2: listeners on what has happened over these five weeks. So
Speaker 2: at the start of the trial, the prosecution and the
Speaker 2: defense lay out their arguments to the jury. Put very simply,
Speaker 2: the prosecution allege that mister Lynn murdered Missus Clay and
Speaker 2: mister hill Hip on March twenty during their trip in
Speaker 2: the Wan and Gunner Valley, but the defense definitely dispute this.
Speaker 2: They say that the two deaths were tragic accidents. According
Speaker 2: to mister Lynn, there was a struggle over a shotgun
Speaker 2: and as a result of that struggle between mister Hill
Speaker 2: and mister Lynn, the gun discharged and shot miss Clay
Speaker 2: in the head. And then following that, mister Hill was distraught.
Speaker 2: He came at mister Lynn with a knife, saying she's dead.
Speaker 2: Then the two men struggled over that knife, and as
Speaker 2: a result, mister Lynn says, mister Hill fell on that
Speaker 2: knife and died.
Speaker 1: That's the defense case.
Speaker 2: That's a defense case, and they've said that as a
Speaker 2: result of there being these two dead bodies, Greg Lynn
Speaker 2: has panicked and he's made what they say were a
Speaker 2: series of terrible decisions and have covered up their deaths.
Speaker 2: And we've heard that that included taking some of their
Speaker 2: items from the camp, burning the camp, hiding their bodies,
Speaker 2: and then a few months later returning to burn them.
Speaker 2: So that is the defense case. And they both started
Speaker 2: out with what we call the openings, telling the jury
Speaker 2: roughly how the trial will proceed and what evidence they
Speaker 2: were expected to hear. And then we got into the
Speaker 2: witnesses and I think Marles correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 2: We've heard from maybe close to fifty witnesses.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, forty nine witnesses according to the judge,
Speaker 3: over four weeks.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And the evidence started out from fellow campers who were
Speaker 2: in the air at the time. I think we had
Speaker 2: some weed sprayers who were working in the valley. We
Speaker 2: also heard from some of the family of mister Hill
Speaker 2: and Missus Clay before we then started to get into
Speaker 2: some of the forensics evidence, which was probably a little
Speaker 2: bit more boring but very important to these sorts of trials.
Speaker 2: We heard from blood splatter experts, people who had expertise
Speaker 2: with insects, a whole range of expertise there. And then
Speaker 2: towards the end of the trial we started getting into
Speaker 2: mister lyne'sccount himself. The jury listened to his whole three
Speaker 2: and a half hour record of interview with police where
Speaker 2: he laid out what he said happened that night in
Speaker 2: the valley. And then finally we actually heard from mister
Speaker 2: Lynn himself, and that's something our listeners haven't heard from yet.
Speaker 2: Mister Lynn took the stand last week and gave his evidence.
Speaker 2: The jury heard from him directly in the witness box, Myles,
Speaker 2: can you tell us what that was like seeing mister
Speaker 2: Lynn stand.
Speaker 3: Well, that was a big day, probably the biggest day
Speaker 3: of the trial so far. It was a sellout crowd
Speaker 3: in the Supreme Court. Up in the public gallery, there
Speaker 3: were dozens of people who was standing room only for
Speaker 3: some downstairs. We had family of mister Hill and missus Clay.
Speaker 3: There was I couldn't even say how many, maybe twenty
Speaker 3: or thirty journalists. It was a full house. So mister
Speaker 3: Lynn was brought up to the stand first thing on
Speaker 3: Thursday morning. He was sworn in and then he's begun
Speaker 3: his evidence with his defense lawyer Dermit Dan questioning him.
Speaker 3: One of the first things mister Dan did was ask
Speaker 3: him about his actions following the pair's deaths, and this
Speaker 3: is about how mister Lynn took their bodies dumped them
Speaker 3: in remote bush land before returning eight months later and
Speaker 3: setting fire to them. Mister Dan said, well, he asked him,
Speaker 3: you know your actions caused a measurable pain to their family,
Speaker 3: loved ones, that people would regard your actions as despicable,
Speaker 3: and his answer was it was despicable. So that was
Speaker 3: a big moment. I was seated in the body of
Speaker 3: the courtroom in an area reserved the media, which is
Speaker 3: just up from where the family of the victims were.
Speaker 3: I did put my head back to see their reaction.
Speaker 3: Nothing jumped out to me, but it was a big
Speaker 3: moment where he did actually directly take responsibility for what
Speaker 3: he's done and you know, call his actions for what
Speaker 3: they were, which was despicable. He actually apologized as well,
Speaker 3: directly to the family that all I can say to
Speaker 3: the families is that I'm very sorry for your suffering
Speaker 3: that I caused. Through his lawyer, he said he'd offered
Speaker 3: to plead guilty to destroying evidence and that he deserved
Speaker 3: to be punished. But he also asked if he killed
Speaker 3: the pay He said, I'm innocent of murder.
Speaker 2: Is this the first time he's ever apologized for what
Speaker 2: happened that night?
Speaker 3: We believe so. There was nothing in the record of
Speaker 3: interview when it was played. There was three and a
Speaker 3: half hours played on Monday and Tuesday, and then we
Speaker 3: had mister Lynna on the stand on Thursday. That was
Speaker 3: between police and mister lynn It wasn't so much talking
Speaker 3: about the families. But now that we're in court and
Speaker 3: there directly, there was a moment of him taking responsibility
Speaker 3: for something he's done.
Speaker 2: Was there anything else interesting that he said on the stand.
Speaker 3: So he was run through his account again, which you've
Speaker 3: spoken about a bit earlier, And during cross examination, mister
Speaker 3: Portudou really grilled him about his story in his account.
Speaker 3: Mister Portchudo, the prosecutor accused mister Lynn of making things up.
Speaker 3: So as we know, mister Lynn claimed they were accidentally killed.
Speaker 3: He's left with this terrible scene and he makes this
Speaker 3: snap decision to conceal the deaths essentially and try and
Speaker 3: make himself disappear. So mister Portudeu ran him through that
Speaker 3: a little bit, and mister Lynn says he panicked, and
Speaker 3: then mister Portugeu says, well, you're in crisis mode as
Speaker 3: you put it. Isn't that something you're trained to deal
Speaker 3: with as a pilot, Yes, he replied. Mister Portugeu asked,
Speaker 3: aren't you trained to become irrational? And mister Lynn said
Speaker 3: he was very stressed right now as in court, and
Speaker 3: he'd also never been faced with two their people before.
Speaker 3: And the prosecutor also asked about why miss de Line
Speaker 3: made the choices he did. For example, mister Line admitted
Speaker 3: when he got home he cleaned the firearm, and Portugeue
Speaker 3: said that would have been the key to his defense,
Speaker 3: and miss Delynn also agreed that leaving the scene as
Speaker 3: it was would have corroborated his story. But we all
Speaker 3: know if his account is true and he left it
Speaker 3: as it was, the police are going to find evidence
Speaker 3: to back up his story. But instead he's destroyed evidence
Speaker 3: and bundle their bodies and take them up into the
Speaker 3: bush and burnt them again.
Speaker 2: Did mister Portugu also question mister Lynn about his actions
Speaker 2: at related to his wife. We understand that he lied
Speaker 2: to her over many months and concealed what he had
Speaker 2: done in the valley in terms of hiding their bodies
Speaker 2: and returning to burn them from her.
Speaker 3: That's right. So mister Portrageu did grill mister Lynn about
Speaker 3: this a bit about whether he spoke to his wife
Speaker 3: about this, and mister Lind said he hadn't. And it
Speaker 3: sort of related to this sixty Minutes episode that aired
Speaker 3: in November twenty twenty one, so this is just before
Speaker 3: mister Lynn was arrested. There was a sixty Minutes episode
Speaker 3: about the missing campus case, and in that episode, a
Speaker 3: police sketch. An image of mister Lynn's forward drive is
Speaker 3: featured on the episode. Mister Lynn's home was under surveillance
Speaker 3: at this point. There was secret listening devices in his home,
Speaker 3: and the jury have been told that mister Lynn's wife
Speaker 3: commented on the program and said that looks like your car,
Speaker 3: and then mister Lynn has then gone and taken the
Speaker 3: awning off his vehicle. A few days after about that
Speaker 3: sort of exchange with his wife, mister Portu said, why
Speaker 3: weren't you just honest with her about what had happened?
Speaker 3: And mister Linn said, the last thing I wanted to
Speaker 3: do was tell other people about it, and telling her
Speaker 3: would involve her in a problem that had nothing to
Speaker 3: do with her. Mister Portugeu then asked, well, you're prepared
Speaker 3: to be deceptive then, and then mister Lynn replied he
Speaker 3: lied to his wife to protect her.
Speaker 2: Was she sitting in the court for his evidence?
Speaker 1: She was.
Speaker 3: I couldn't get a good look of her upstairs in
Speaker 3: the public gallery. They've got a glass panel and anasta,
Speaker 3: so I couldn't actually see her reaction. But she was
Speaker 3: up there, and she has been in there most days.
Speaker 1: What is her demeanor?
Speaker 3: She hasn't given a lot away. She's been in there
Speaker 3: with the couple's son, and I believe the son's partner
Speaker 3: not too much emotion from what I can tell, but
Speaker 3: she has been in there supporting him. If not maybe
Speaker 3: not every day, but most days definitely.
Speaker 1: Myles, what is an awning on top of a full drive?
Speaker 3: So an awning is almost like a roof rack er.
Speaker 3: It's an attachment to the top of your roof. And
Speaker 3: the awning they're talking about is it's almost like a
Speaker 3: camping item and it extends out and turns into a shade. Sale.
Speaker 1: So while it's in its compressed form, it's sort of
Speaker 1: a circular tube. That's right. Then you can pull it
Speaker 1: out like a blind or something. Yeah, so it becomes
Speaker 1: like a little tent, yeah, thing to keep the sun
Speaker 1: off for whatever. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And the reason mister Lane removed this from his vehicles
Speaker 3: because it was shown in this sixty Minutes episode. The
Speaker 3: images they showed you could see had a distinctive awning
Speaker 3: on it, and so just to make his vehicle, he
Speaker 3: admits this, to make it look less like the image
Speaker 3: on sixty Minutes, he took it off.
Speaker 1: Did the case at any stage go into the reasons
Speaker 1: for that Fowar Drive being painted a new color.
Speaker 3: They did during the police interview, they asked him why
Speaker 3: he repainted the car and his answer was, well, the
Speaker 3: first one was obviously the police were after and so
Speaker 3: he was trying to, you know, conceal his involvement. The
Speaker 3: second one was it just needed a new paint.
Speaker 1: It was an old car.
Speaker 3: He reckons it was, you know, the paint was almost
Speaker 3: coming off, and he just looked around the garage and
Speaker 3: found a tin of paint and he just panted his car.
Speaker 3: Miss Dilyn's wife actually took a photo of him repainting
Speaker 3: the car, and police later got ahold of that when
Speaker 3: they seized her phone and downloaded the images off it,
Speaker 3: and we have a copy of that photo is very
Speaker 3: sort of grainy, not high quality, but you can see
Speaker 3: Miss Selina in it with a roller in the middle
Speaker 3: of repainting with a roller, I believe.
Speaker 1: So.
Speaker 2: Do you think it was during lockdown as well? Something
Speaker 2: to pass the time?
Speaker 3: I think it was June four, twenty twenty, so it
Speaker 3: would have been around lockdown.
Speaker 1: Has there been any evidence lead about Gregglynn's early life?
Speaker 1: He's passed that sort of biographical stuff.
Speaker 3: I don't think so, not too much. There's been a
Speaker 3: little bit about him as a pilot, but sort of
Speaker 3: touched upon briefly.
Speaker 2: Oh he heard about the gloves.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the gloves. Yeah, yeah, so he spoke about how
Speaker 3: he had some gloves from Jetstar. He's worked for jets.
Speaker 1: He likes to clean the plane.
Speaker 3: He likes to clean the plane. Yeah, he said, So
Speaker 3: he has these gloves as a Jetstar pilot and he
Speaker 3: has these gloves. And he used to describe how he'd
Speaker 3: always have a pair in his car because he would
Speaker 3: clean the aircraft after it landed. His job usually left
Speaker 3: for the flight attendants, but he said he used to
Speaker 3: help out himself.
Speaker 1: Would that be like the judge sweeping out the court
Speaker 1: each night?
Speaker 3: Pretty similar, I think.
Speaker 1: Would that happen, You'd have to ask the judges.
Speaker 3: I've never seen one do it.
Speaker 1: Well. Your court reporters, Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Busy filing, not to not waiting back to see who
Speaker 2: cleans the court room.
Speaker 3: Yeah, usually see the cleaners in the court. They're out
Speaker 3: by eight am. I'm coming into work sometimes and they're leaving,
Speaker 3: so they got there before us.
Speaker 1: It's like editors and newspapers. I've seen them filled rubbishpins.
Speaker 1: I've never seen any of them empty. One is the
Speaker 1: case so far examined that period where Greg Lynn is
Speaker 1: leaving the scene and he comes across a gate across
Speaker 1: his path and he decides in the head of the
Speaker 1: moment or that he has to turn around, which is
Speaker 1: difficult because he had a trailer on and go back
Speaker 1: the other way and read he read the needle and
Speaker 1: go back out past Hatham, which of course ultimately was
Speaker 1: what identified his vehicle. Has that been looked at in depth.
Speaker 3: So one of the first witnesses we had was a
Speaker 3: guy called Tom Matthews. He was another camper in the
Speaker 3: Wanagata Valley at the time the couple disappeared. He spoke
Speaker 3: about it was around about midnight. He hears a forward drive.
Speaker 3: He presumes it's a forward drive. He said it was
Speaker 3: a petrol sounded like an automatic transmission. Was towing a
Speaker 3: trailer and he was camping near the river crossing. So
Speaker 3: this is Wannagata River and it's on the Wanninggata track
Speaker 3: and that's one of the exits out of the valley
Speaker 3: and that was closed off. That was a road closed
Speaker 3: sign and he was woken up now midnight doesn't know
Speaker 3: exactly when, and he heard a car come across that
Speaker 3: exit and have to do a difficult reverse turn. So
Speaker 3: on Tuesday, the prosecution delive their closing remark. This is
Speaker 3: after all the evidence has been heard, and now they're
Speaker 3: kind of summarizing their cases and putting their arguments forward.
Speaker 3: Mister Portrageu down your portrait of the sort of prosecutor.
Speaker 3: He said, mister Lyne's account was complete fiction. He urged
Speaker 3: the jury to reject his fanciful version of events. He said,
Speaker 3: the accused stories indeed a series of very unfortunate events,
Speaker 3: but like the book series of that name, it is
Speaker 3: a complete fiction.
Speaker 1: Do we know what book he's referring to this?
Speaker 3: Do you know this?
Speaker 2: A series of books?
Speaker 3: A series of unfortunate events?
Speaker 1: You know them? Yeah? I get it.
Speaker 2: The author name has escaped me.
Speaker 3: He went through some of the claims mister Lynn had
Speaker 3: and just took the jury one by one, you know,
Speaker 3: almost points of why you know some of his account
Speaker 3: was implausible. For example, he talked about how, according to
Speaker 3: mister Lynn, mister Hill took mister Lynn's shotgun from his
Speaker 3: car and took it back to his camp sign and
Speaker 3: that kind of sparked this confrontation. Well, mister Porcher dou Is, firstly,
Speaker 3: he pointed that out that mister Hill had taken the
Speaker 3: wrong gun. So mister Hill was initially angry with mister
Speaker 3: Lynn because he'd been hunting with a rifle. But when
Speaker 3: he goes and takes the gun, and he takes the
Speaker 3: shotgun instead of the rifle which was left behind. So
Speaker 3: mister Portrague had pointed that out to make that clear.
Speaker 3: On mister Lynn's account, mister Hill has told him, I've
Speaker 3: seen you hunting in the area. I've filmed you on
Speaker 3: my drone. I'm taking that to police because because he
Speaker 3: says mister Lynn had been hunting illegally close to the
Speaker 3: camp site, he's shot through the camp again, this is
Speaker 3: what mister Lynn says. Mister Hill tells him mister Lynn
Speaker 3: had been hunting with his rifle, and so then according
Speaker 3: to his account, mister Hill comes over and takes his
Speaker 3: shotgun and just a sort of continuing on that point again,
Speaker 3: mister Lind's acount is he took the shotgun. He also
Speaker 3: took a box of ammunition, and then as he's walking
Speaker 3: back to his campsite, he's loading the gun. He's loading
Speaker 3: the box of ammunition into the shotgun. This is what
Speaker 3: this is what Lynn says, and he says he actually
Speaker 3: fires it into the air well. Mister portugu said, if
Speaker 3: you're just looking to confiscate the firearm, why would you
Speaker 3: load it.
Speaker 2: And we've got to keep in mind as well that
Speaker 2: we do know that mister Hill says him and Harrol
Speaker 2: were in the area to remember a friend who had
Speaker 2: died in a deer hunting accident. And that is something
Speaker 2: that mister Lynn said, mister Hill made clear to him
Speaker 2: early on when they first met at bucks Camp and
Speaker 2: exchanged pleasantries.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. Mister Lynn had said that mister Hill
Speaker 3: had spoken to him and told him that they were
Speaker 3: in the area because if someone they known either were
Speaker 3: a relative of a friend and they were there to
Speaker 3: remember them. And just continuing on that point with the weapons,
Speaker 3: mister Portugeue said, if mister Hill had taken the shotgun
Speaker 3: but left the rifle and these two groups had been fighting,
Speaker 3: well why would you do that. You're already hostile towards
Speaker 3: one another. Why would you leave one one gun?
Speaker 1: Ya? It's a good question.
Speaker 2: And isn't it the case that both the shotgun and
Speaker 2: the rifle were left in mister Lynn's vehicle with the
Speaker 2: doors wide open because he hadn't safely locked them away.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 3: So mister Lynn says he left the doors open and
Speaker 3: was playing loud music to get back at mister Hill
Speaker 3: over this dispute about the hunting and the drone footage.
Speaker 3: So that's why they weren't locked up, he says. He says,
Speaker 3: you know that was illegal on his behalf. They should
Speaker 3: have been locked up. I think anyone knows that anyone
Speaker 3: who owns a firearm or or as a hunter would
Speaker 3: know that you can't just leave your guns lying about
Speaker 3: for others to pick up. Mister Dan just began his
Speaker 3: closing remarks at the end of the day and he's
Speaker 3: really having a go at the prosecution. He described how
Speaker 3: there were seventeen low lights of the prosecution case and
Speaker 3: he's been taking the jury through them one by one.
Speaker 3: He said Crown Prosecutor Daniel portradh had acted it disgracefully.
Speaker 3: He said they'd brokenly established court prostigures relating to fairness,
Speaker 3: and he's going to take the jury through more of
Speaker 3: these low lights the following day. I would say he's
Speaker 3: more on the attack than the prosecution is. He's really
Speaker 3: trying to poke holes within the prosecution case.
Speaker 1: And no one's going to sleep.
Speaker 3: No one's going to sleep. No, Okay, it's pretty it
Speaker 3: is entertaining. Everyone's got back straight, Laura, where do.
Speaker 1: We go from here?
Speaker 2: So on Wednesday, mister Dan will finish up his defense closings.
Speaker 2: As we mentioned, he's got those seventeen low lights he
Speaker 2: wants to walk the jury through and once that's complete,
Speaker 2: that's pretty much the end of the trial. So the
Speaker 2: jury would have heard through all forty nine witnesses. They've
Speaker 2: heard both the prosecution and the defense finalize and finish
Speaker 2: their cases, and then the attention turns to the judge,
Speaker 2: who in a couple of days' time will deliver what's
Speaker 2: called his charge. So the charge is almost like the
Speaker 2: instructions that the judge delivers to the jury to help
Speaker 2: them get to their verdict. So there are many rules
Speaker 2: that they need to be aware of. The judge will
Speaker 2: also summarize both the prosecution and the defense case to
Speaker 2: make it clear to the jury what they need to
Speaker 2: keep in mind when they begin their deliberations, and it
Speaker 2: is expected by Friday that the jury will do just that.
Speaker 2: But before that, during our first bonus episode, you may
Speaker 2: have heard us refer to the fact that there were
Speaker 2: fifteen jurors in paneled. So in a case like this
Speaker 2: that is expected to run over four to six weeks,
Speaker 2: they always in panel a few extra durors in case
Speaker 2: anything goes wrong, if anyone gets sick or can no
Speaker 2: longer continue on. There is now fourteen jurors in total,
Speaker 2: but only twelve can deliver a verdict. So what will
Speaker 2: happen before the deliberations is two durors will be balloted off.
Speaker 2: All of their numbers or names will be put into
Speaker 2: a box. Two names will be pulled out, and those
Speaker 2: two names or two numbers, those durors will not continue
Speaker 2: and they will be asked to leave. They are no
Speaker 2: longer required because it's only twelve people that can deliver
Speaker 2: a verdict. So that will happen before the deliberations commence,
Speaker 2: and then it really is a waiting game. We don't
Speaker 2: know how long the jury will take to determine their verdict.
Speaker 2: It could be hours, it could be days, it could
Speaker 2: be weeks, which.
Speaker 1: Leads to my final question. If you had to bet
Speaker 1: on it, do you think the jury will take a
Speaker 1: long time to deliberate or not.
Speaker 2: This has been a long trial. Like I said, we've
Speaker 2: heard from many witnesses. There's been a lot of evidence,
Speaker 2: and I think they will really want to comb through that,
Speaker 2: absorb that, and discuss it. There are some trials that
Speaker 2: run for only a number of days. Some trials can
Speaker 2: be over in a week, and when there's less for
Speaker 2: juries to grapple with, I think it can be easier
Speaker 2: for them to turn around a verdict. But in a
Speaker 2: case as serious as this as well, it's high stakes.
Speaker 2: I think the jury will want to make sure that
Speaker 2: they are discussing every single thing they can and they
Speaker 2: are all on the same page when they do decide
Speaker 2: on a verdict. So I do feel like it will
Speaker 2: be definitely more than a few hours. So we might
Speaker 2: have a verdict next week, but it much could be
Speaker 2: the week after that or the week after that.
Speaker 3: What do you think, Miles, I agree, I think it's
Speaker 3: going to be long, long deliberations. I think there's an
Speaker 3: issue of On the one hand, the prosecution says we
Speaker 3: can't say the motive or in the order which they
Speaker 3: were killed. We can't exactly say the circumstances of why
Speaker 3: mister Lynn killed them, but on the defense case he
Speaker 3: also admits taking their bodies and burning them. So weighing
Speaker 3: out those two competing things and trying to reach decision,
Speaker 3: I think it's going to be a very difficult task.
Speaker 1: I have to agree, not easy. Who would want to
Speaker 1: be a durer?
Speaker 2: Well that's it from us. It's so great to have
Speaker 2: you back, Andrew, and thank you again Miles for joining us.
Speaker 2: We'll be back when the verdict is finally handed down,
Speaker 2: so stay tuned listeners, but Miles will be in Caught
Speaker 2: on Wednesday as mister Dan closes the defense case, so
Speaker 2: be sure to check the Herald's on website and the
Speaker 2: paper for his update.
Speaker 1: Been a pleasure and a privilege to have you here,
Speaker 1: and I look forward to the final chapter of this
Speaker 1: absorbing case, which I know I've followed very closely since
Speaker 1: it happened because I'm from my skips Land and I
Speaker 1: know these parts.
Speaker 3: It's been a marathon, but I'm looking forward to getting towards.
Speaker 1: The finish line. Thanks to you both. Thanks Andrew, thank you,
Speaker 1: thanks for listening. Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald
Speaker 1: Sun production for True Crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton.
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Speaker 1: And if you want further information about this episode, links
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