1 00:00:03,420 --> 00:00:06,860 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. It's 2 00:00:06,860 --> 00:00:09,410 Sean Aylmer: been a hard couple of years for small businesses. When 3 00:00:09,410 --> 00:00:12,350 Sean Aylmer: the pandemic hit, some were able to pivot into new 4 00:00:12,350 --> 00:00:16,210 Sean Aylmer: areas. Many were forced into hibernation, reliant on government support. 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,030 Sean Aylmer: Some made the decision that they just couldn't continue operating. Now more 6 00:00:20,030 --> 00:00:22,120 Sean Aylmer: than two years later, things are picking up, though that 7 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,550 Sean Aylmer: doesn't necessarily make it a lot easier for some small 8 00:00:24,550 --> 00:00:27,180 Sean Aylmer: businesses. I wanted to find out what it all means 9 00:00:27,260 --> 00:00:30,010 Sean Aylmer: for small businesses in Australia, and what's needed to make 10 00:00:30,010 --> 00:00:32,989 Sean Aylmer: sure they're able to grow post COVID. Alexi Boyd is 11 00:00:32,990 --> 00:00:35,979 Sean Aylmer: the CEO of COSBOA. That's the Council of Small Business 12 00:00:35,979 --> 00:00:38,840 Sean Aylmer: Organisations Australia. Alexi, welcome to Fear and Greed. 13 00:00:39,420 --> 00:00:40,930 Alexi Boyd: Good morning, Sean. How are you? 14 00:00:41,170 --> 00:00:42,790 Sean Aylmer: I'm very well, thank you. Now tell me, what are 15 00:00:42,790 --> 00:00:45,850 Sean Aylmer: we talking about? What's the size of the small business sector 16 00:00:45,850 --> 00:00:47,370 Sean Aylmer: in Australia? How can we think about it? 17 00:00:48,150 --> 00:00:51,540 Alexi Boyd: Well, look, what we think about is that the small business sector is actually 18 00:00:51,540 --> 00:00:56,150 Alexi Boyd: the largest employer in the country. Collectively we employ more 19 00:00:56,150 --> 00:01:00,190 Alexi Boyd: than half of Australians in the workforce. And at the 20 00:01:00,190 --> 00:01:02,710 Alexi Boyd: moment it's topping out at between 2. 2 and 2. 4 21 00:01:02,710 --> 00:01:07,130 Alexi Boyd: million businesses. That's registered businesses. Now, of course, they come 22 00:01:07,130 --> 00:01:09,840 Alexi Boyd: in many shapes and sizes, many sectors of the economy. 23 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,550 Alexi Boyd: That's everyone from a sole trader running a market stall, 24 00:01:12,890 --> 00:01:15,540 Alexi Boyd: all the way through to a small company which is 25 00:01:15,630 --> 00:01:19,670 Alexi Boyd: quickly becoming a medium company as they grow exponentially. Very 26 00:01:19,670 --> 00:01:21,890 Alexi Boyd: difficult to put a finger on what your definition of 27 00:01:21,890 --> 00:01:24,060 Alexi Boyd: a small business is, but what we say at COSBOA 28 00:01:24,060 --> 00:01:26,080 Alexi Boyd: is if you are a small business and you consider 29 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,020 Alexi Boyd: yourself a small business, then we represent you. 30 00:01:28,420 --> 00:01:31,850 Sean Aylmer: Okay. It's a very, very diverse group. It's very hard 31 00:01:31,850 --> 00:01:33,650 Sean Aylmer: to find a lot of these businesses, isn't it? 32 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,110 Alexi Boyd: Well, yes. The businesses you can see and touch, I 33 00:01:36,110 --> 00:01:38,350 Alexi Boyd: call it the butchers, the bakers, the candlestick makers. They're 34 00:01:38,350 --> 00:01:40,580 Alexi Boyd: the ones that we can see on the high street 35 00:01:40,580 --> 00:01:42,610 Alexi Boyd: and the ones we interact with on a daily basis. 36 00:01:42,860 --> 00:01:44,850 Alexi Boyd: But then of course, there's the small businesses that you 37 00:01:44,850 --> 00:01:47,810 Alexi Boyd: don't see. The B2B, those who are supporting those small 38 00:01:47,810 --> 00:01:51,710 Alexi Boyd: businesses in their marketing, or perhaps their advisory roles. And 39 00:01:51,710 --> 00:01:53,930 Alexi Boyd: of course, lots and lots of small businesses operate within 40 00:01:53,930 --> 00:01:55,020 Alexi Boyd: our community as well. 41 00:01:55,350 --> 00:01:58,070 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So how tough have the last couple of years 42 00:01:58,070 --> 00:02:01,160 Sean Aylmer: been for small businesses relative to everyone else? 43 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:03,580 Alexi Boyd: Look, I think small businesses are a pretty good at 44 00:02:03,580 --> 00:02:06,460 Alexi Boyd: riding waves, the highs and the lows. It's part and 45 00:02:06,460 --> 00:02:09,889 Alexi Boyd: parcel with starting your own company and recognizing that there 46 00:02:09,889 --> 00:02:12,030 Alexi Boyd: are going to be tough times. But I don't think 47 00:02:12,030 --> 00:02:14,519 Alexi Boyd: anything could have prepared small businesses for the last couple 48 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,109 Alexi Boyd: of years. And that's in a lot of ways because 49 00:02:17,110 --> 00:02:19,370 Alexi Boyd: much of what's happened has been out of their control. 50 00:02:19,610 --> 00:02:22,560 Alexi Boyd: Even though they've done their absolute utmost to keep their 51 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,040 Alexi Boyd: community safe, keep their doors open, keep their people employed 52 00:02:26,300 --> 00:02:29,880 Alexi Boyd: and keep the businesses going. So it's been tough because 53 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:34,730 Alexi Boyd: there's been many, many building and compounding effects of the 54 00:02:34,730 --> 00:02:37,400 Alexi Boyd: virus. First of course, there was the panic and the 55 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,889 Alexi Boyd: concern about what the virus would mean from a health 56 00:02:39,889 --> 00:02:43,230 Alexi Boyd: perspective. And that's evolved into, what do I need to 57 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,600 Alexi Boyd: do to keep my doors open and keep my people safe? 58 00:02:45,910 --> 00:02:49,230 Alexi Boyd: And that's evolved into supply chain issues and ongoing effects 59 00:02:49,230 --> 00:02:52,720 Alexi Boyd: of the virus from a global perspective and internally. So 60 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,770 Alexi Boyd: it's been, I guess, hit after hit for small businesses. 61 00:02:55,770 --> 00:02:57,710 Alexi Boyd: And in many ways, a lot of them, as you 62 00:02:57,710 --> 00:02:59,870 Alexi Boyd: mentioned at the beginning of the program, have hit a 63 00:02:59,870 --> 00:03:02,100 Alexi Boyd: brick wall and have made the decision that they just 64 00:03:02,100 --> 00:03:05,329 Alexi Boyd: can't go on anymore. Now these are not insolvent businesses. 65 00:03:05,330 --> 00:03:08,169 Alexi Boyd: Many of them are comfortably trading. They're managing to get 66 00:03:08,169 --> 00:03:11,470 Alexi Boyd: through, they're turning a corner, but the exhaustion levels are 67 00:03:11,470 --> 00:03:13,769 Alexi Boyd: rife. And that's what we're seeing now from our members. 68 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,730 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Do you think there was enough government support? And you're not allowed just 69 00:03:17,730 --> 00:03:24,280 Sean Aylmer: to say, no. Because everyone always wants government support. And 70 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,590 Sean Aylmer: if you look at certainly the liquidators would say that 71 00:03:26,590 --> 00:03:30,480 Sean Aylmer: there was a drop in liquidations and closures during COVID 72 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,020 Sean Aylmer: because of government support. JobKeeper worked pretty well. I'm just 73 00:03:34,020 --> 00:03:37,340 Sean Aylmer: wondering whether small business got what it needed. And of 74 00:03:37,340 --> 00:03:40,680 Sean Aylmer: course, keeping in mind that we're in extraordinary circumstances. 75 00:03:41,150 --> 00:03:43,280 Alexi Boyd: Do you know what Sean? I think if you asked 76 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,360 Alexi Boyd: a typical small business owner if they wanted to be 77 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,330 Alexi Boyd: propped up by government support and wanted to have to 78 00:03:48,330 --> 00:03:50,930 Alexi Boyd: fill out all the forms and declarations that they needed 79 00:03:50,930 --> 00:03:52,690 Alexi Boyd: to do, they really just want to get on with 80 00:03:52,690 --> 00:03:54,930 Alexi Boyd: running a business. They don't want to be propped up. 81 00:03:54,930 --> 00:03:56,460 Alexi Boyd: They want to know that they can stand on their 82 00:03:56,460 --> 00:03:59,250 Alexi Boyd: own two feet. But it has been incredibly difficult. And 83 00:03:59,250 --> 00:04:02,590 Alexi Boyd: it's been really welcomed just to help small businesses get 84 00:04:02,590 --> 00:04:06,040 Alexi Boyd: past the next batch of bills that are due or 85 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:07,589 Alexi Boyd: be able to pay the rent just so they can 86 00:04:07,590 --> 00:04:09,860 Alexi Boyd: stay open. And let me reiterate the fact that a 87 00:04:09,860 --> 00:04:13,809 Alexi Boyd: lot of these businesses were strong, viable, sometimes multi- generational 88 00:04:13,810 --> 00:04:17,219 Alexi Boyd: small businesses in community which had been doing absolutely fine 89 00:04:17,220 --> 00:04:19,820 Alexi Boyd: up until this point. So of course the business support 90 00:04:19,970 --> 00:04:22,049 Alexi Boyd: and the government support is welcome and it comes in 91 00:04:22,050 --> 00:04:24,950 Alexi Boyd: many forms. It doesn't just come in handouts. It could 92 00:04:24,950 --> 00:04:27,339 Alexi Boyd: come in the form of structural change that can make 93 00:04:27,339 --> 00:04:30,529 Alexi Boyd: it easier to do businesses. We've seen the government move 94 00:04:30,529 --> 00:04:34,020 Alexi Boyd: fast when it comes to regulation and better regulation to 95 00:04:34,020 --> 00:04:36,560 Alexi Boyd: make it easier. We've seen them stand up things like 96 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,440 Alexi Boyd: Telehealth pretty quickly. We've seen them enable businesses to be 97 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,650 Alexi Boyd: able to trade longer hours or to in the case 98 00:04:43,650 --> 00:04:46,960 Alexi Boyd: of hospitality, offer different services that otherwise they would be 99 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,380 Alexi Boyd: restricted on. Those changes are welcome just as much as 100 00:04:50,380 --> 00:04:52,929 Alexi Boyd: the cash support that's been there as well. And of 101 00:04:52,930 --> 00:04:56,700 Alexi Boyd: course, mediation services where it helps us to come to 102 00:04:56,700 --> 00:05:00,760 Alexi Boyd: the middle with our biggest suppliers like rent, like the 103 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,980 Alexi Boyd: supply chain. It does help to have those mediation services 104 00:05:03,980 --> 00:05:06,490 Alexi Boyd: in place. So when we talk about support, it comes 105 00:05:06,500 --> 00:05:09,109 Alexi Boyd: in many different forms and yes, it is all welcome, 106 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,339 Alexi Boyd: but broadly, small businesses just want to get on with running a business 107 00:05:12,339 --> 00:05:15,710 Alexi Boyd: and really want government to just put structural reforms in 108 00:05:15,710 --> 00:05:17,469 Alexi Boyd: place that help them do it easier. 109 00:05:17,860 --> 00:05:20,230 Sean Aylmer: I take all that on board, but the question still 110 00:05:20,230 --> 00:05:22,529 Sean Aylmer: is, we all have to go through the pandemic. Do 111 00:05:22,529 --> 00:05:24,900 Sean Aylmer: you think the government actually did enough? There's lots of 112 00:05:24,910 --> 00:05:27,339 Sean Aylmer: paperwork involved and Fear and Greed is a small business 113 00:05:27,339 --> 00:05:30,650 Sean Aylmer: and trying to apply for some of those particular government handouts 114 00:05:30,650 --> 00:05:33,810 Sean Aylmer: was quite challenging. (inaudible) to the accountant basically. Do 115 00:05:33,810 --> 00:05:36,720 Sean Aylmer: you think the government did do enough to support the 116 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,310 Sean Aylmer: sector in whatever form, might have been a handout, it might 117 00:05:39,310 --> 00:05:41,250 Sean Aylmer: have been flexibility, during the pandemic? 118 00:05:41,740 --> 00:05:44,270 Alexi Boyd: Well, that's a really difficult question to answer because it depends 119 00:05:44,270 --> 00:05:47,779 Alexi Boyd: who's answering it. There's so many different structures and sectors 120 00:05:47,779 --> 00:05:50,660 Alexi Boyd: of the small businesses. Some have gone gangbusters. Some of 121 00:05:50,660 --> 00:05:53,089 Alexi Boyd: them have been able to make the most and really 122 00:05:53,089 --> 00:05:55,850 Alexi Boyd: benefit from the conditions that we've been in, and others 123 00:05:55,850 --> 00:05:58,730 Alexi Boyd: have suffered greatly. I think it depends on which sector 124 00:05:58,730 --> 00:06:01,089 Alexi Boyd: you're speaking to as to whether or not there's been 125 00:06:01,089 --> 00:06:04,440 Alexi Boyd: enough support. And naturally those who have had to shut 126 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,300 Alexi Boyd: up shop for whatever reason, probably feel as though that 127 00:06:07,300 --> 00:06:10,040 Alexi Boyd: the government could have done more. But I think broadly, 128 00:06:10,350 --> 00:06:13,440 Alexi Boyd: we all understand that the government doesn't have an unending 129 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,839 Alexi Boyd: supply of cash that it can supply businesses with. It's 130 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,979 Alexi Boyd: about structural reform to make it easier to do business 131 00:06:20,140 --> 00:06:22,990 Alexi Boyd: and spending money the right way to get a tailored 132 00:06:22,990 --> 00:06:24,330 Alexi Boyd: support into those who need it. 133 00:06:24,500 --> 00:06:26,310 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me Alexi, we'll be back in a minute. 134 00:06:30,910 --> 00:06:33,310 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Alexi Boyd, CEO of the 135 00:06:33,310 --> 00:06:37,010 Sean Aylmer: Council of Small Business Organisations Australia. Okay, away from the 136 00:06:37,010 --> 00:06:40,440 Sean Aylmer: government. What about the banks and the landlords? Do you think 137 00:06:40,470 --> 00:06:43,979 Sean Aylmer: they did enough to support small businesses during it? Because 138 00:06:43,980 --> 00:06:46,270 Sean Aylmer: of course the health of small businesses, if small business 139 00:06:46,270 --> 00:06:48,810 Sean Aylmer: is healthy, the banks are healthy. Similarly with those big 140 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:50,110 Sean Aylmer: real estate investment trusts. 141 00:06:50,540 --> 00:06:53,440 Alexi Boyd: Absolutely. I think when we talk about real estate, we 142 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,279 Alexi Boyd: have to factor in the situation that there are small 143 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,380 Alexi Boyd: landlords as well, and many small businesses are landlords themselves. 144 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,890 Alexi Boyd: The mediation requirement we are looking for, we wanted to 145 00:07:02,890 --> 00:07:05,440 Alexi Boyd: see it continue in as many states as possible that 146 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,650 Alexi Boyd: requires landlords and small businesses to come to the table 147 00:07:08,940 --> 00:07:10,990 Alexi Boyd: and come to the middle ground when it comes to 148 00:07:10,990 --> 00:07:12,830 Alexi Boyd: having it best for all. Nobody wants to see empty 149 00:07:12,830 --> 00:07:16,120 Alexi Boyd: shops, least of all landlords, and certainly not small businesses. 150 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:18,670 Alexi Boyd: When it comes to the banks, the answer to that 151 00:07:18,670 --> 00:07:21,900 Alexi Boyd: is simple. Absolutely they could do more. All you need 152 00:07:21,900 --> 00:07:23,630 Alexi Boyd: to do is look at the profits that they've made 153 00:07:23,630 --> 00:07:26,390 Alexi Boyd: in the last two years, even when a lot of 154 00:07:26,390 --> 00:07:29,010 Alexi Boyd: small businesses and other businesses and other sectors of the 155 00:07:29,010 --> 00:07:31,670 Alexi Boyd: economy have not done so well. And you have to 156 00:07:31,670 --> 00:07:34,970 Alexi Boyd: ask yourself why? There are certain things that banks can 157 00:07:34,970 --> 00:07:38,100 Alexi Boyd: do that they're not doing well enough, which is examining 158 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:42,500 Alexi Boyd: merchant fees, for example. They are in a position where 159 00:07:42,500 --> 00:07:46,130 Alexi Boyd: they have an inequitable relationship with small businesses and really 160 00:07:46,130 --> 00:07:49,970 Alexi Boyd: do control that. Instead of small businesses being the customer, 161 00:07:50,220 --> 00:07:53,160 Alexi Boyd: they are in fact, more often they're not beholden to 162 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,300 Alexi Boyd: whatever the bank decides. And the last part of course 163 00:07:56,300 --> 00:08:00,690 Alexi Boyd: is small business lending. It is fraught with complexity, with 164 00:08:00,690 --> 00:08:05,330 Alexi Boyd: difficulties, and it's very difficult for small businesses, again, in 165 00:08:05,330 --> 00:08:07,420 Alexi Boyd: all the different forms that they come in, the different 166 00:08:07,420 --> 00:08:10,790 Alexi Boyd: structures, to be able to get access to that capital 167 00:08:11,010 --> 00:08:13,500 Alexi Boyd: to grow their businesses, or even just to stay afloat. 168 00:08:13,770 --> 00:08:15,690 Alexi Boyd: That is a major problem that we would like to 169 00:08:15,690 --> 00:08:18,610 Alexi Boyd: see the government address in the next few months. 170 00:08:18,950 --> 00:08:20,940 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Just before we get off this topic, the ATO, 171 00:08:20,940 --> 00:08:22,930 Sean Aylmer: the tax office, they were a lot more flexible for 172 00:08:22,930 --> 00:08:23,680 Sean Aylmer: small businesses, weren't they? 173 00:08:24,350 --> 00:08:28,380 Alexi Boyd: Yeah, they were. In fact, they recognized very quickly, probably 174 00:08:28,380 --> 00:08:31,920 Alexi Boyd: faster than most other government agencies, that small businesses were 175 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,250 Alexi Boyd: suffering and that were not in a position to be 176 00:08:34,250 --> 00:08:37,270 Alexi Boyd: able to pay. And we really appreciate at COSBOA, our 177 00:08:37,270 --> 00:08:40,410 Alexi Boyd: members appreciated the fact that they made those changes quickly 178 00:08:40,450 --> 00:08:45,120 Alexi Boyd: and they essentially stopped examining debt for a period of 179 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,819 Alexi Boyd: time. Now, those channels, of course, can't last forever because 180 00:08:48,860 --> 00:08:51,330 Alexi Boyd: the tax is what we need to run many parts 181 00:08:51,330 --> 00:08:55,420 Alexi Boyd: of our economy. But the ATO is beginning to look at 182 00:08:55,470 --> 00:08:59,320 Alexi Boyd: debt in a different way. The undisputed debt that is 183 00:08:59,350 --> 00:09:01,860 Alexi Boyd: required for businesses to pay needs to be looked at. 184 00:09:01,860 --> 00:09:04,510 Alexi Boyd: And then again, brings back banks and lenders back into 185 00:09:04,510 --> 00:09:07,120 Alexi Boyd: the equation. How do we all work together to make 186 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,770 Alexi Boyd: sure this debt can be addressed sensibly without putting people 187 00:09:11,770 --> 00:09:15,179 Alexi Boyd: into a situation of insolvency and help them get back 188 00:09:15,179 --> 00:09:17,720 Alexi Boyd: up on their feet? I think you're right. The ATO 189 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,780 Alexi Boyd: has done a good job of recognizing the pain that 190 00:09:20,780 --> 00:09:23,449 Alexi Boyd: small businesses have been in and worked with them to 191 00:09:23,450 --> 00:09:27,280 Alexi Boyd: help them set up payment plans, keep the relationship open 192 00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:29,720 Alexi Boyd: and the discussions going to help them deal with that debt. 193 00:09:30,309 --> 00:09:32,760 Sean Aylmer: Okay. A couple of years on from the pandemic. We're 194 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,569 Sean Aylmer: emerging from it. Things are normalizing somewhat. What's the small 195 00:09:36,580 --> 00:09:39,880 Sean Aylmer: business sector look like now, and what's it need over 196 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:41,410 Sean Aylmer: the next 12 months, two years? 197 00:09:42,429 --> 00:09:46,099 Alexi Boyd: In a word, hopeful. I think a lot of people 198 00:09:46,100 --> 00:09:49,410 Alexi Boyd: are finally having a moment to take a breath, to 199 00:09:49,610 --> 00:09:53,730 Alexi Boyd: assess their viability and assess their debt levels. Up until 200 00:09:53,730 --> 00:09:56,950 Alexi Boyd: now they have literally been running day to day because 201 00:09:56,950 --> 00:10:00,630 Alexi Boyd: of situations like supply chain problems and worker shortages, which 202 00:10:00,670 --> 00:10:04,630 Alexi Boyd: are across all sectors and a massive problem. They've really 203 00:10:04,630 --> 00:10:06,870 Alexi Boyd: just been flying by the seat of their pants, not 204 00:10:06,870 --> 00:10:09,900 Alexi Boyd: being able to make serious decisions about the future of their 205 00:10:10,070 --> 00:10:12,900 Alexi Boyd: business. And sometimes not even week by week up until 206 00:10:12,900 --> 00:10:16,540 Alexi Boyd: this point. Now small businesses have finally got a customers 207 00:10:16,540 --> 00:10:19,380 Alexi Boyd: coming in the door. They've finally got contracts back in 208 00:10:19,380 --> 00:10:24,040 Alexi Boyd: place and they can start to see their future. So what we're asking 209 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,760 Alexi Boyd: for here is what can consumers, what can big business, 210 00:10:27,940 --> 00:10:30,929 Alexi Boyd: what can government do to support small businesses as they 211 00:10:30,929 --> 00:10:35,190 Alexi Boyd: regrow? And obviously from community it's appreciating and looking after 212 00:10:35,190 --> 00:10:37,660 Alexi Boyd: your small businesses who have looked after you in the 213 00:10:37,660 --> 00:10:41,470 Alexi Boyd: last two years by making their services as available as 214 00:10:41,470 --> 00:10:45,150 Alexi Boyd: possible, keeping their customers safe, bending over backwards to look 215 00:10:45,150 --> 00:10:48,170 Alexi Boyd: after their community as best as they can. And that's 216 00:10:48,170 --> 00:10:51,250 Alexi Boyd: what community does best. They really rally around small business. 217 00:10:51,540 --> 00:10:54,100 Alexi Boyd: Big business, they can do a better job of procuring 218 00:10:54,100 --> 00:10:57,699 Alexi Boyd: to small. Same with government. Look at your supply chains, 219 00:10:57,700 --> 00:11:01,850 Alexi Boyd: examine how you are interacting with small business and do 220 00:11:01,850 --> 00:11:03,460 Alexi Boyd: a good job of that and make sure that the 221 00:11:03,460 --> 00:11:07,260 Alexi Boyd: relationship remains fair and equitable. Another thing we're looking at 222 00:11:07,260 --> 00:11:11,910 Alexi Boyd: into the near and medium term is examining the ACCC 223 00:11:11,910 --> 00:11:15,950 Alexi Boyd: and giving them the opportunity to make sure that everything 224 00:11:15,950 --> 00:11:18,870 Alexi Boyd: stays fair for small businesses while they're in this particularly 225 00:11:18,870 --> 00:11:19,730 Alexi Boyd: vulnerable state. 226 00:11:20,330 --> 00:11:22,099 Sean Aylmer: Alexi, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 227 00:11:22,620 --> 00:11:24,170 Alexi Boyd: It's been a pleasure, Sean. Thanks for having me. 228 00:11:24,510 --> 00:11:27,610 Sean Aylmer: That was Alexi Boyd, CEO of COSBOA. That's the Council 229 00:11:27,610 --> 00:11:30,890 Sean Aylmer: of Small Business Organisations Australia. This is a Fear and 230 00:11:31,170 --> 00:11:33,809 Sean Aylmer: Greed daily interview. Join me every morning for the full Fear and Greed 231 00:11:33,809 --> 00:11:36,239 Sean Aylmer: podcast with all the business news you need to know. 232 00:11:36,490 --> 00:11:37,900 Sean Aylmer: I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.