1 00:00:05,921 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Appo Cha Production. 2 00:00:12,281 --> 00:00:14,921 Speaker 2: Hello listeners to Real Crime with Adam Shander. I want 3 00:00:14,921 --> 00:00:17,761 Speaker 2: to wish you a very safe and happy festive season. 4 00:00:18,201 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 2: We're going to be taking off over the Christmas break, 5 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:22,081 Speaker 2: so I wanted to leave you with a couple of 6 00:00:22,681 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 2: excerpts from my favorite podcasts of twenty twenty five. I 7 00:00:26,401 --> 00:00:28,841 Speaker 2: hope you enjoy them, and I look forward to giving 8 00:00:28,881 --> 00:00:32,641 Speaker 2: you some new and excellent crime experiences on our podcast 9 00:00:32,721 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 2: in the new year. I'll talk to you then enjoy. 10 00:00:37,561 --> 00:00:42,401 Speaker 2: So on the night of September twelfth, nineteen fifty three, 11 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:47,001 Speaker 2: she's heading to a party at Richmond. She's going to 12 00:00:47,001 --> 00:00:49,241 Speaker 2: be picked up by a colleague. She's working at GJ. 13 00:00:49,521 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 2: Cole's Variety store in Burke Street in Melbourne, and this 14 00:00:53,241 --> 00:00:56,681 Speaker 2: is her social network. She's met people she's working where. 15 00:00:56,721 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 2: She's the young one of the younger ones at fourteen. 16 00:00:59,401 --> 00:01:04,121 Speaker 2: But she arranges to meet Ronald John Holmes, twenty one, 17 00:01:04,641 --> 00:01:09,321 Speaker 2: one of her workmates. He thinks they're meeting at Richmond Station. 18 00:01:10,441 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 2: She doesn't know about Richmond Station and so she goes 19 00:01:13,601 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 2: to North Richmond Station. 20 00:01:15,801 --> 00:01:21,401 Speaker 1: What happened next, Well, Ronald Holmes, he was her chaperone. 21 00:01:21,521 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: A lot of people thought oh ah, this guy, because 22 00:01:25,241 --> 00:01:28,281 Speaker 1: of the seven year age difference, had something to do 23 00:01:28,401 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 1: with it. Maybe maybe not. At this stage, when Shirley 24 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:37,521 Speaker 1: got off at the station, he wasn't anywhere. Ronald wasn't 25 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:41,441 Speaker 1: anywhere to be seen. He probably went to a different station, 26 00:01:42,241 --> 00:01:46,801 Speaker 1: so she would have felt very stood up and humiliated. 27 00:01:47,561 --> 00:01:51,081 Speaker 1: He did too elsewhere. He added straight to the party 28 00:01:51,641 --> 00:01:56,081 Speaker 1: and actually told people he'd been stood up. But Shirley 29 00:01:57,001 --> 00:02:02,481 Speaker 1: wasn't seen again. Actually she wasn't seen since the bus stop. 30 00:02:03,121 --> 00:02:06,561 Speaker 1: She wasn't really seen until she there's a change over 31 00:02:06,801 --> 00:02:10,041 Speaker 1: between bus and train. That's where she wasn't seen. 32 00:02:09,961 --> 00:02:13,961 Speaker 2: Since, because she's coming in from reservoir reservoir as we 33 00:02:14,041 --> 00:02:16,761 Speaker 2: call it down here, and she gets the train into 34 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,721 Speaker 2: North Richmond. And as you say, she was not the 35 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,241 Speaker 2: kind of girl to jump in a stranger's car. I 36 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,081 Speaker 2: think she would have been more likely to have simply 37 00:02:28,161 --> 00:02:32,481 Speaker 2: turned around and gone home. But then there's a critical 38 00:02:33,201 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 2: alleged sighting. 39 00:02:35,601 --> 00:02:36,761 Speaker 3: At about eight o'clock. 40 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 2: A woman is walking down from Punt Road down Elizabeth 41 00:02:41,001 --> 00:02:45,161 Speaker 2: Street towards North Richmond station, and she sees a girl 42 00:02:45,281 --> 00:02:50,081 Speaker 2: fitting Shirley Collins's description, and she's talking to a man 43 00:02:50,121 --> 00:02:50,761 Speaker 2: in a car. 44 00:02:51,041 --> 00:02:54,681 Speaker 1: Can I just interject there, Sure there's more than one 45 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:59,481 Speaker 1: witness There were two, And these witnesses came forward two 46 00:02:59,721 --> 00:03:04,001 Speaker 1: months after Shirley's body was found. And this is a 47 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:09,321 Speaker 1: huge repancy. This is a huge lapse of time that 48 00:03:10,201 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: impacts the reliability of memory. Also, we know that since 49 00:03:15,041 --> 00:03:21,201 Speaker 1: this time, many publications in the newspapers have been presented. 50 00:03:21,401 --> 00:03:25,721 Speaker 1: For example, one of the witnesses reported that she was 51 00:03:25,761 --> 00:03:30,161 Speaker 1: wearing a pearl necklace because that's how she was presented 52 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,601 Speaker 1: in the actual newspaper. But in fact they found the 53 00:03:34,601 --> 00:03:38,241 Speaker 1: pearl necklace back at home. She hadn't worn it at all. 54 00:03:38,761 --> 00:03:42,201 Speaker 1: So when I looked at this book, I looked for 55 00:03:42,361 --> 00:03:51,121 Speaker 1: inconsistencies and consistencies, and quite frankly, I pushed many of 56 00:03:51,161 --> 00:03:57,881 Speaker 1: the witnesses aside and tried to trace steps. A lot 57 00:03:57,921 --> 00:04:01,801 Speaker 1: of this has to do with timing and movement. That's 58 00:04:01,841 --> 00:04:03,401 Speaker 1: how I looked at it. 59 00:04:03,681 --> 00:04:08,161 Speaker 2: Wasn't that in your book, Conceivable Malice, you do cast 60 00:04:08,241 --> 00:04:10,481 Speaker 2: doubt on these eyewitness accounts. You've always got to be 61 00:04:10,521 --> 00:04:13,601 Speaker 2: careful with eye witness accounts because they can be influenced 62 00:04:14,041 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 2: by what people have read. Memory fades away very quickly, 63 00:04:17,681 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 2: as you say This was some weeks or months after 64 00:04:20,721 --> 00:04:25,281 Speaker 2: the events, So we really can't be sure that she 65 00:04:25,481 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 2: even got to North Richmond station, Is that what you're saying? 66 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:33,361 Speaker 1: Yeah, But irrespective that even if she didn't get to 67 00:04:33,681 --> 00:04:39,121 Speaker 1: North Richmond station at some time, say Regent Street station 68 00:04:39,481 --> 00:04:42,721 Speaker 1: where the bus at the bus and the train intersection, 69 00:04:43,401 --> 00:04:47,361 Speaker 1: at some stage she got in a car and so 70 00:04:47,481 --> 00:04:52,201 Speaker 1: basically I take that and that car went to Mount Martha. 71 00:04:53,041 --> 00:04:57,041 Speaker 1: This is why the timing I've looked at motor vehicle speeds, 72 00:04:57,161 --> 00:05:02,881 Speaker 1: traffic lights, headlights, lighting, weather, all that sort of thing 73 00:05:03,401 --> 00:05:08,401 Speaker 1: was raining and to arrow down time frames you look 74 00:05:08,401 --> 00:05:13,041 Speaker 1: at I know it sounds gross, but maggots, maggots that 75 00:05:13,201 --> 00:05:17,361 Speaker 1: were found. You look at the last meal that she had, 76 00:05:18,121 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: the things that we know, because I must say, many 77 00:05:22,001 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: of the witness accounts and people can really want to 78 00:05:26,041 --> 00:05:29,641 Speaker 1: help the police, but they can be a huge distraction, 79 00:05:30,521 --> 00:05:33,081 Speaker 1: a huge distraction if they're incorrect. 80 00:05:33,921 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 2: You're right, everything is up for contests in this story. 81 00:05:37,401 --> 00:05:41,041 Speaker 2: Only thing we do know for certain is that nine 82 00:05:41,121 --> 00:05:45,561 Speaker 2: am Tuesday, three days almost three days after she disappears, 83 00:05:46,041 --> 00:05:49,841 Speaker 2: a retired businessman is walking his fox terrier Bombo, along 84 00:05:49,921 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 2: Marine Drive Mount Martha. Bombo runs up a driveway to 85 00:05:53,921 --> 00:05:57,281 Speaker 2: a vacant cottage barking, and comes back and tugs at 86 00:05:57,281 --> 00:06:01,481 Speaker 2: his master's leg, urging him to come see what he's found. 87 00:06:01,921 --> 00:06:03,241 Speaker 3: What does the witness find? 88 00:06:04,201 --> 00:06:09,481 Speaker 1: Ah, This is crucial now, remembering that two days and 89 00:06:09,561 --> 00:06:14,281 Speaker 1: three nights of past since she actually disappeared. She was 90 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,801 Speaker 1: found with her head covered and her head smashed in, 91 00:06:19,001 --> 00:06:25,161 Speaker 1: her face smashed in. She was found naked from the 92 00:06:25,241 --> 00:06:31,641 Speaker 1: shoulders down except stocking down on one foot, very staged, 93 00:06:32,201 --> 00:06:37,401 Speaker 1: a very staged position for a fourteen year old girl 94 00:06:38,001 --> 00:06:44,041 Speaker 1: absolutely dead. I know this sounds awful too, but decomposing. 95 00:06:45,241 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: It's just imagine how that man felt in finding her. Anyway, 96 00:06:52,401 --> 00:06:55,801 Speaker 1: he called the police from Ana. Police jumped to it 97 00:06:56,201 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: very quickly and they worked together with the police from Melbourne. 98 00:07:02,201 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: So it was really a good collaboration of men. Police. 99 00:07:06,401 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 2: The time of death became a critical element to this 100 00:07:08,561 --> 00:07:13,041 Speaker 2: whole investigation because, as you say, police put out calls 101 00:07:13,081 --> 00:07:16,561 Speaker 2: for information, There was a radio broadcast, there was pictures 102 00:07:16,561 --> 00:07:19,441 Speaker 2: of Shirley in the clothes that she wore, staged up 103 00:07:19,481 --> 00:07:22,281 Speaker 2: with for the model and so forth, and this brought 104 00:07:22,321 --> 00:07:28,721 Speaker 2: a lot of information, including some witness accounts from people 105 00:07:29,161 --> 00:07:32,321 Speaker 2: in the Mount Martha area. That suggested that she might 106 00:07:32,361 --> 00:07:35,601 Speaker 2: not have died on the Saturday, but some days afterwards, 107 00:07:35,601 --> 00:07:39,201 Speaker 2: which was very misleading. It was indeed, she was supposed 108 00:07:39,201 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 2: to have been seen in a hotel. 109 00:07:40,721 --> 00:07:44,801 Speaker 1: In a shop as well, coffee shop, hotel. The thing is, 110 00:07:44,921 --> 00:07:48,801 Speaker 1: you think, why on earth would someone do that, Why 111 00:07:48,841 --> 00:07:52,401 Speaker 1: on earth would they distract police? Well, it might be 112 00:07:52,721 --> 00:07:56,321 Speaker 1: that she's on their mind and they truly believed that 113 00:07:56,441 --> 00:07:59,681 Speaker 1: they've seen her, and they don't want to not give 114 00:07:59,761 --> 00:08:04,121 Speaker 1: information into the police. But I don't actually think that's 115 00:08:04,161 --> 00:08:09,001 Speaker 1: what happened here. I think it was good publicity. Quite frankly, 116 00:08:09,761 --> 00:08:14,121 Speaker 1: I know that's callous, but I think that the hotel 117 00:08:14,201 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: owner or the shop owner that it brought the client 118 00:08:18,841 --> 00:08:24,521 Speaker 1: tell because it did to their premises and increase their sales. 119 00:08:24,681 --> 00:08:28,441 Speaker 1: It got them on the map, and in this instance, 120 00:08:28,881 --> 00:08:33,321 Speaker 1: it distracted police. It gave them theories that didn't work, 121 00:08:33,681 --> 00:08:37,641 Speaker 1: and it wasn't until the medical examiner came up with 122 00:08:37,801 --> 00:08:45,721 Speaker 1: his findings that they could refute all of these unreliable sightings. 123 00:08:47,481 --> 00:08:51,361 Speaker 2: You can imagine how that was for Shirley's foster parents. 124 00:08:52,401 --> 00:08:56,361 Speaker 2: She is a quiet, conscientious girl. She's not experienced socially 125 00:08:56,401 --> 00:08:59,801 Speaker 2: and suddenly she's turning up in hotels and drinking beer 126 00:09:00,241 --> 00:09:02,481 Speaker 2: and having meals with older men and so forth. 127 00:09:02,801 --> 00:09:07,841 Speaker 3: So distressing. But as you pointed out earlier, they stood. 128 00:09:07,521 --> 00:09:12,561 Speaker 1: By her and said, no, no, she would not have 129 00:09:12,721 --> 00:09:17,161 Speaker 1: done that. That is not our girl. I thought that 130 00:09:17,361 --> 00:09:18,361 Speaker 1: was admirable. 131 00:09:18,401 --> 00:09:18,761 Speaker 3: Correct. 132 00:09:19,161 --> 00:09:21,761 Speaker 2: The medical examin was critical in this because, as you said, 133 00:09:21,761 --> 00:09:24,961 Speaker 2: he looked at the contents of her stomach and as 134 00:09:25,041 --> 00:09:28,321 Speaker 2: you indelicately put it, the growth of maggots on. 135 00:09:28,321 --> 00:09:29,521 Speaker 3: The body over those days. 136 00:09:29,561 --> 00:09:32,121 Speaker 2: And you suddenly come back to a very specific time 137 00:09:32,201 --> 00:09:36,281 Speaker 2: of death. How has that arrived at Louise, It's all from. 138 00:09:36,121 --> 00:09:40,081 Speaker 1: The first laying of eggs. He looked at the laying 139 00:09:40,121 --> 00:09:43,001 Speaker 1: of eggs and the timelines of the different stages of 140 00:09:43,121 --> 00:09:50,121 Speaker 1: development of maggots found in Shirley's body, and a different method. 141 00:09:50,201 --> 00:09:55,481 Speaker 1: Now this is important. These police tried a different method 142 00:09:56,321 --> 00:10:00,601 Speaker 1: from a different source of information. That is a really 143 00:10:00,761 --> 00:10:04,841 Speaker 1: good way of examining a case. So the medical eg 144 00:10:05,041 --> 00:10:09,721 Speaker 1: samina also looked at her last meal, and there was 145 00:10:09,761 --> 00:10:13,161 Speaker 1: also a false report there too, but it had certain 146 00:10:13,441 --> 00:10:17,801 Speaker 1: elements in it that took quite a long time to digest, 147 00:10:18,201 --> 00:10:22,081 Speaker 1: Like it was pea and han soup, and split peas 148 00:10:22,521 --> 00:10:25,921 Speaker 1: take quite a long time to digest, but not that long, 149 00:10:26,561 --> 00:10:31,441 Speaker 1: and so the time was narrowed in to around seven 150 00:10:31,601 --> 00:10:37,001 Speaker 1: thirty pm, So he arrived at a time frame of 151 00:10:37,161 --> 00:10:44,361 Speaker 1: between seven thirty pm and eleven pm. When I mentioned 152 00:10:44,521 --> 00:10:50,081 Speaker 1: Ronald Holmes earlier, her chaperone. No matter how I looked 153 00:10:50,081 --> 00:10:55,961 Speaker 1: at this, he did not fit within the timeline. This person, 154 00:10:56,041 --> 00:11:01,001 Speaker 1: the killer, had to drive to Mount Martha and come back. 155 00:11:01,761 --> 00:11:07,281 Speaker 1: Remember that Ronald turned up a party. The police even 156 00:11:07,361 --> 00:11:12,321 Speaker 1: asked what were you all doing at the time he arrived, 157 00:11:13,201 --> 00:11:17,161 Speaker 1: What were you watching? They were all watching motorbikes on 158 00:11:17,681 --> 00:11:23,241 Speaker 1: probably the TV, so they closed in. That's one person 159 00:11:23,921 --> 00:11:27,841 Speaker 1: who got eliminated. Now must say he was also a suspect, 160 00:11:27,961 --> 00:11:31,321 Speaker 1: quite a main one for me in the beginning. So 161 00:11:32,361 --> 00:11:37,561 Speaker 1: at that point when he did not fit, he got eliminated. 162 00:11:37,921 --> 00:11:42,401 Speaker 1: Set to the side, eliminated by me as a suspect, 163 00:11:42,681 --> 00:11:45,921 Speaker 1: as he I think was eliminated by the police too. 164 00:11:46,841 --> 00:11:54,201 Speaker 1: Basically I pulled ever brewerybody in, including the parents, including 165 00:11:54,441 --> 00:11:58,561 Speaker 1: all the colleagues. I pulled everybody in as a suspect, 166 00:11:59,241 --> 00:12:05,281 Speaker 1: especially given that eighty seven percent of murders commit to 167 00:12:05,441 --> 00:12:10,041 Speaker 1: buy people who know the victim eighty seven percent. They 168 00:12:10,161 --> 00:12:13,761 Speaker 1: don't say to what extent they know them. But here 169 00:12:13,761 --> 00:12:18,921 Speaker 1: we've got a whole bundle of work colleagues, we've got parents, 170 00:12:19,521 --> 00:12:24,801 Speaker 1: foster parents and so on. So everybody became a focus, 171 00:12:25,201 --> 00:12:27,641 Speaker 1: but not Ronald. He got eliminated early on. 172 00:12:34,601 --> 00:12:37,481 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to this episode and supporting this story. 173 00:12:38,081 --> 00:12:40,201 Speaker 3: Independent storytelling that shapes the world. 174 00:12:40,121 --> 00:12:43,321 Speaker 2: Is what podshape really cares about. 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