1 00:00:05,921 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Appo Cha Production. 2 00:00:12,281 --> 00:00:14,921 Speaker 2: Hello listeners to Real Crime with Adam Shander. I want 3 00:00:14,921 --> 00:00:17,761 Speaker 2: to wish you a very safe and happy festive season. 4 00:00:18,201 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 2: We're going to be taking off over the Christmas break, 5 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:22,081 Speaker 2: so I wanted to leave you with a couple of 6 00:00:22,681 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 2: excerpts from my favorite podcasts of twenty twenty five. I 7 00:00:26,401 --> 00:00:28,841 Speaker 2: hope you enjoy them, and I look forward to giving 8 00:00:28,881 --> 00:00:32,641 Speaker 2: you some new and excellent crime experiences on our podcast 9 00:00:32,721 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 2: in the new year. I'll talk to you then enjoy. 10 00:00:37,561 --> 00:00:42,401 Speaker 2: So on the night of September twelfth, nineteen fifty three, 11 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:47,001 Speaker 2: she's heading to a party at Richmond. She's going to 12 00:00:47,001 --> 00:00:49,241 Speaker 2: be picked up by a colleague. She's working at GJ. 13 00:00:49,521 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 2: Cole's Variety store in Burke Street in Melbourne, and this 14 00:00:53,241 --> 00:00:56,681 Speaker 2: is her social network. She's met people she's working where. 15 00:00:56,721 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 2: She's the young one of the younger ones at fourteen. 16 00:00:59,401 --> 00:01:04,121 Speaker 2: But she arranges to meet Ronald John Holmes, twenty one, 17 00:01:04,641 --> 00:01:09,321 Speaker 2: one of her workmates. He thinks they're meeting at Richmond Station. 18 00:01:10,441 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 2: She doesn't know about Richmond Station and so she goes 19 00:01:13,601 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 2: to North Richmond Station. 20 00:01:15,801 --> 00:01:21,401 Speaker 3: What happened next, Well, Ronald Holmes, he was her chaperone. 21 00:01:21,521 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 3: A lot of people thought oh ah, this guy, because 22 00:01:25,241 --> 00:01:28,281 Speaker 3: of the seven year age difference, had something to do 23 00:01:28,401 --> 00:01:29,081 Speaker 3: with it. 24 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:30,121 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe not. 25 00:01:30,241 --> 00:01:34,761 Speaker 3: At this stage, when Shirley got off at the station, 26 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 3: he wasn't anywhere. 27 00:01:36,881 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: Ronald wasn't anywhere to be seen. 28 00:01:39,321 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 3: He probably went to a different station, so she would 29 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,801 Speaker 3: have felt very stood up and humiliated. 30 00:01:47,561 --> 00:01:49,201 Speaker 1: He did too elsewhere. 31 00:01:49,281 --> 00:01:53,241 Speaker 3: He added straight to the party and actually told people 32 00:01:53,641 --> 00:01:55,041 Speaker 3: he'd been stood up. 33 00:01:55,321 --> 00:02:01,601 Speaker 1: But Shirley wasn't seen again. Actually she wasn't seen since 34 00:02:01,641 --> 00:02:05,681 Speaker 1: the bus stop. She wasn't really seen until she there's 35 00:02:05,721 --> 00:02:09,201 Speaker 1: a change over between bus and train. That's where she 36 00:02:09,321 --> 00:02:10,041 Speaker 1: wasn't seen. 37 00:02:09,961 --> 00:02:13,961 Speaker 2: Since, because she's coming in from reservoir reservoir as we 38 00:02:14,041 --> 00:02:16,761 Speaker 2: call it down here, and she gets the train into 39 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,721 Speaker 2: North Richmond. And as you say, she was not the 40 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,241 Speaker 2: kind of girl to jump in a stranger's car. I 41 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,081 Speaker 2: think she would have been more likely to have simply 42 00:02:28,161 --> 00:02:32,481 Speaker 2: turned around and gone home. But then there's a critical 43 00:02:33,201 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 2: alleged sighting. 44 00:02:35,601 --> 00:02:36,761 Speaker 4: At about eight o'clock. 45 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 2: A woman is walking down from Punt Road down Elizabeth 46 00:02:41,001 --> 00:02:45,161 Speaker 2: Street towards North Richmond station, and she sees a girl 47 00:02:45,281 --> 00:02:50,081 Speaker 2: fitting Shirley Collins's description, and she's talking to a man 48 00:02:50,121 --> 00:02:50,761 Speaker 2: in a car. 49 00:02:51,041 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: Can I just interject there, Sure. 50 00:02:53,401 --> 00:02:57,561 Speaker 3: There's more than one witness There were two, And these 51 00:02:57,601 --> 00:03:03,361 Speaker 3: witnesses came forward two months after Shirley's body was found. 52 00:03:03,361 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 3: And this is a huge repancy. This is a huge 53 00:03:07,321 --> 00:03:13,761 Speaker 3: lapse of time that impacts the reliability of memory. Also, 54 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:18,601 Speaker 3: we know that since this time, many publications in the 55 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 3: newspapers have been presented. For example, one of the witnesses 56 00:03:24,561 --> 00:03:28,761 Speaker 3: reported that she was wearing a pearl necklace because that's 57 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:33,401 Speaker 3: how she was presented in the actual newspaper. But in 58 00:03:33,441 --> 00:03:36,841 Speaker 3: fact they found the pearl necklace back at home. She 59 00:03:37,001 --> 00:03:40,321 Speaker 3: hadn't worn it at all. So when I looked at 60 00:03:40,321 --> 00:03:49,081 Speaker 3: this book, I looked for inconsistencies and consistencies, and quite frankly, 61 00:03:49,641 --> 00:03:54,641 Speaker 3: I pushed many of the witnesses aside and tried to 62 00:03:55,241 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 3: trace steps. 63 00:03:57,481 --> 00:04:01,081 Speaker 1: A lot of this has to do with timing and movement. 64 00:04:01,561 --> 00:04:03,401 Speaker 1: That's how I looked at it. 65 00:04:03,681 --> 00:04:08,161 Speaker 2: Wasn't that in your book, Conceivable Malice, you do cast 66 00:04:08,241 --> 00:04:10,481 Speaker 2: doubt on these eyewitness accounts. You've always got to be 67 00:04:10,521 --> 00:04:13,601 Speaker 2: careful with eye witness accounts because they can be influenced 68 00:04:14,041 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 2: by what people have read. Memory fades away very quickly, 69 00:04:17,681 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 2: as you say This was some weeks or months after 70 00:04:20,721 --> 00:04:25,281 Speaker 2: the events, So we really can't be sure that she 71 00:04:25,481 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 2: even got to North Richmond station, Is that what you're saying? 72 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:33,361 Speaker 3: Yeah, But irrespective that even if she didn't get to 73 00:04:33,681 --> 00:04:39,121 Speaker 3: North Richmond station at some time, say Regent Street station 74 00:04:39,481 --> 00:04:42,721 Speaker 3: where the bus at the bus and the train intersection, 75 00:04:43,401 --> 00:04:47,361 Speaker 3: at some stage she got in a car and so 76 00:04:47,481 --> 00:04:52,201 Speaker 3: basically I take that and that car went to Mount Martha. 77 00:04:53,041 --> 00:04:57,041 Speaker 3: This is why the timing I've looked at motor vehicle speeds, 78 00:04:57,161 --> 00:05:02,881 Speaker 3: traffic lights, headlights, lighting, weather, all that sort of thing 79 00:05:03,401 --> 00:05:08,401 Speaker 3: was raining and to arrow down time frames you look 80 00:05:08,401 --> 00:05:13,041 Speaker 3: at I know it sounds gross, but maggots, maggots that 81 00:05:13,201 --> 00:05:17,361 Speaker 3: were found. You look at the last meal that she had, 82 00:05:18,121 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 3: the things that we know, because I must say, many 83 00:05:22,001 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 3: of the witness accounts and people can really want to 84 00:05:26,041 --> 00:05:29,641 Speaker 3: help the police, but they can be a huge distraction, 85 00:05:30,521 --> 00:05:33,081 Speaker 3: a huge distraction if they're incorrect. 86 00:05:33,921 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 2: You're right, everything is up for contests in this story. 87 00:05:37,401 --> 00:05:41,041 Speaker 2: Only thing we do know for certain is that nine 88 00:05:41,121 --> 00:05:45,561 Speaker 2: am Tuesday, three days almost three days after she disappears, 89 00:05:46,041 --> 00:05:49,841 Speaker 2: a retired businessman is walking his fox terrier Bombo, along 90 00:05:49,921 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 2: Marine Drive Mount Martha. Bombo runs up a driveway to 91 00:05:53,921 --> 00:05:57,281 Speaker 2: a vacant cottage barking, and comes back and tugs at 92 00:05:57,281 --> 00:06:01,481 Speaker 2: his master's leg, urging him to come see what he's found. 93 00:06:01,921 --> 00:06:03,241 Speaker 4: What does the witness find? 94 00:06:04,201 --> 00:06:09,481 Speaker 3: Ah, This is crucial now, remembering that two days and 95 00:06:09,561 --> 00:06:14,281 Speaker 3: three nights of past since she actually disappeared. She was 96 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,801 Speaker 3: found with her head covered and her head smashed in, 97 00:06:19,001 --> 00:06:25,161 Speaker 3: her face smashed in. She was found naked from the 98 00:06:25,241 --> 00:06:31,641 Speaker 3: shoulders down except stocking down on one foot, very staged, 99 00:06:32,201 --> 00:06:37,401 Speaker 3: a very staged position for a fourteen year old girl 100 00:06:38,001 --> 00:06:44,041 Speaker 3: absolutely dead. I know this sounds awful too, but decomposing. 101 00:06:45,241 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 3: It's just imagine how that man felt in finding her. Anyway, 102 00:06:52,401 --> 00:06:55,801 Speaker 3: he called the police from Ana. Police jumped to it 103 00:06:56,201 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 3: very quickly and they worked together with the police from Melbourne. 104 00:07:02,201 --> 00:07:04,921 Speaker 3: So it was really a good collaboration of men. 105 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: Police. 106 00:07:06,401 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 2: The time of death became a critical element to this 107 00:07:08,561 --> 00:07:13,041 Speaker 2: whole investigation because, as you say, police put out calls 108 00:07:13,081 --> 00:07:16,561 Speaker 2: for information, There was a radio broadcast, there was pictures 109 00:07:16,561 --> 00:07:19,441 Speaker 2: of Shirley in the clothes that she wore, staged up 110 00:07:19,481 --> 00:07:22,281 Speaker 2: with for the model and so forth, and this brought 111 00:07:22,321 --> 00:07:28,721 Speaker 2: a lot of information, including some witness accounts from people 112 00:07:29,161 --> 00:07:32,321 Speaker 2: in the Mount Martha area. That suggested that she might 113 00:07:32,361 --> 00:07:35,601 Speaker 2: not have died on the Saturday, but some days afterwards, 114 00:07:35,601 --> 00:07:39,201 Speaker 2: which was very misleading. It was indeed, she was supposed 115 00:07:39,201 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 2: to have been seen in a hotel. 116 00:07:40,721 --> 00:07:44,801 Speaker 3: In a shop as well, coffee shop, hotel. The thing is, 117 00:07:44,921 --> 00:07:48,801 Speaker 3: you think, why on earth would someone do that, Why 118 00:07:48,841 --> 00:07:52,401 Speaker 3: on earth would they distract police? Well, it might be 119 00:07:52,721 --> 00:07:56,321 Speaker 3: that she's on their mind and they truly believed that 120 00:07:56,441 --> 00:07:59,681 Speaker 3: they've seen her, and they don't want to not give 121 00:07:59,761 --> 00:08:04,121 Speaker 3: information into the police. But I don't actually think that's 122 00:08:04,161 --> 00:08:09,001 Speaker 3: what happened here. I think it was good publicity. Quite frankly, 123 00:08:09,761 --> 00:08:14,121 Speaker 3: I know that's callous, but I think that the hotel 124 00:08:14,201 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 3: owner or the shop owner that it brought the client 125 00:08:18,841 --> 00:08:24,521 Speaker 3: tell because it did to their premises and increase their sales. 126 00:08:24,681 --> 00:08:28,441 Speaker 1: It got them on the map, and in this instance, 127 00:08:28,881 --> 00:08:30,561 Speaker 1: it distracted police. 128 00:08:30,641 --> 00:08:34,561 Speaker 3: It gave them theories that didn't work, and it wasn't 129 00:08:34,721 --> 00:08:39,881 Speaker 3: until the medical examiner came up with his findings that 130 00:08:39,961 --> 00:08:42,241 Speaker 3: they could refute. 131 00:08:42,401 --> 00:08:45,721 Speaker 1: All of these unreliable sightings. 132 00:08:47,481 --> 00:08:51,361 Speaker 2: You can imagine how that was for Shirley's foster parents. 133 00:08:52,401 --> 00:08:56,361 Speaker 2: She is a quiet, conscientious girl. She's not experienced socially 134 00:08:56,401 --> 00:08:59,801 Speaker 2: and suddenly she's turning up in hotels and drinking beer 135 00:09:00,241 --> 00:09:02,481 Speaker 2: and having meals with older men and so forth. 136 00:09:02,801 --> 00:09:07,841 Speaker 4: So distressing. But as you pointed out earlier, they stood. 137 00:09:07,521 --> 00:09:12,561 Speaker 3: By her and said, no, no, she would not have 138 00:09:12,721 --> 00:09:13,801 Speaker 3: done that. 139 00:09:13,801 --> 00:09:18,361 Speaker 1: That is not our girl. I thought that was admirable. 140 00:09:18,401 --> 00:09:18,761 Speaker 4: Correct. 141 00:09:19,161 --> 00:09:21,761 Speaker 2: The medical examin was critical in this because, as you said, 142 00:09:21,761 --> 00:09:24,961 Speaker 2: he looked at the contents of her stomach and as 143 00:09:25,041 --> 00:09:28,321 Speaker 2: you indelicately put it, the growth of maggots on. 144 00:09:28,321 --> 00:09:29,521 Speaker 4: The body over those days. 145 00:09:29,561 --> 00:09:32,121 Speaker 2: And you suddenly come back to a very specific time 146 00:09:32,201 --> 00:09:36,281 Speaker 2: of death. How has that arrived at Louise, It's all from. 147 00:09:36,121 --> 00:09:38,321 Speaker 1: The first laying of eggs. 148 00:09:38,521 --> 00:09:41,601 Speaker 3: He looked at the laying of eggs and the timelines 149 00:09:41,641 --> 00:09:46,281 Speaker 3: of the different stages of development of maggots found in 150 00:09:46,401 --> 00:09:50,121 Speaker 3: Shirley's body, and a different method. 151 00:09:50,201 --> 00:09:51,641 Speaker 1: Now this is important. 152 00:09:51,681 --> 00:09:57,881 Speaker 3: These police tried a different method from a different source 153 00:09:58,201 --> 00:10:03,081 Speaker 3: of information. That is a really good way of examining 154 00:10:03,121 --> 00:10:06,481 Speaker 3: a case. So the medical eg samina also looked at 155 00:10:06,481 --> 00:10:11,081 Speaker 3: her last meal, and there was also a false report 156 00:10:11,161 --> 00:10:14,921 Speaker 3: there too, but it had certain elements in it that 157 00:10:15,081 --> 00:10:19,081 Speaker 3: took quite a long time to digest, Like it was 158 00:10:19,161 --> 00:10:23,081 Speaker 3: pea and han soup, and split peas take quite a 159 00:10:23,081 --> 00:10:26,881 Speaker 3: long time to digest, but not that long, and so 160 00:10:27,161 --> 00:10:33,041 Speaker 3: the time was narrowed in to around seven thirty pm, 161 00:10:33,641 --> 00:10:38,201 Speaker 3: So he arrived at a time frame of between seven 162 00:10:38,321 --> 00:10:46,241 Speaker 3: thirty pm and eleven pm. When I mentioned Ronald Holmes earlier, 163 00:10:46,801 --> 00:10:51,441 Speaker 3: her chaperone. No matter how I looked at this, he 164 00:10:52,041 --> 00:10:56,681 Speaker 3: did not fit within the timeline. This person, the killer, 165 00:10:56,921 --> 00:11:02,401 Speaker 3: had to drive to Mount Martha and come back. Remember 166 00:11:02,881 --> 00:11:07,561 Speaker 3: that Ronald turned up a party. The police even. 167 00:11:07,361 --> 00:11:10,441 Speaker 1: Asked what were you all. 168 00:11:10,201 --> 00:11:14,561 Speaker 3: Doing at the time he arrived, What were you watching? 169 00:11:14,641 --> 00:11:19,881 Speaker 3: They were all watching motorbikes on probably the TV, so 170 00:11:20,321 --> 00:11:25,641 Speaker 3: they closed in. That's one person who got eliminated. Now 171 00:11:25,801 --> 00:11:28,521 Speaker 3: must say he was also a suspect, quite a main 172 00:11:28,601 --> 00:11:33,401 Speaker 3: one for me in the beginning. So at that point 173 00:11:33,801 --> 00:11:38,321 Speaker 3: when he did not fit, he got eliminated. Set to 174 00:11:38,401 --> 00:11:43,041 Speaker 3: the side, eliminated by me as a suspect, as he 175 00:11:43,361 --> 00:11:48,481 Speaker 3: I think was eliminated by the police too. Basically I 176 00:11:48,561 --> 00:11:55,561 Speaker 3: pulled ever brewerybody in, including the parents, including all the colleagues. 177 00:11:55,801 --> 00:12:00,561 Speaker 3: I pulled everybody in as a suspect, especially given that 178 00:12:00,721 --> 00:12:06,601 Speaker 3: eighty seven percent of murders are commited by people who 179 00:12:06,801 --> 00:12:09,721 Speaker 3: know the victim eighty seven percent. 180 00:12:09,881 --> 00:12:12,721 Speaker 1: They don't say to what extent they know them. 181 00:12:13,401 --> 00:12:16,401 Speaker 3: But here we've got a whole bundle of work colleagues, 182 00:12:17,241 --> 00:12:23,801 Speaker 3: we've got parents, foster parents and so on. So everybody 183 00:12:23,881 --> 00:12:27,641 Speaker 3: became a focus, but not Ronald. He got eliminated early on.