Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never
Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with former
Speaker 1: New South Wales detective and whistleblower Deborah Locke. If you
Speaker 1: listen to part one, I think you would have been
Speaker 1: shocked by what Deborah experience as a young female cop
Speaker 1: in the eighties. Well, her life did get any simpler
Speaker 1: after she reported the corruption she'd seen as a young detective,
Speaker 1: and as you will find out in Part two, things
Speaker 1: in fact got a lot worse. I love policing, but
Speaker 1: there were aspects about what occurred in policing that did
Speaker 1: bring shame to police forces across the country. Welcome back
Speaker 1: to part two of our Catch Killers. If people have
Speaker 1: been listening to part one, they're probably thinking, is what
Speaker 1: is this world we talk of or you talk of?
Speaker 2: Bob Bla.
Speaker 3: You know, because you were there.
Speaker 1: I know, and I think and the only way I
Speaker 1: can sort of you look back at it and come
Speaker 1: to terms with it. Society was changing. It was the
Speaker 1: wild time.
Speaker 2: So wasn't it.
Speaker 3: It was a wild West? Yeah, yeah, And it wasn't
Speaker 3: like society or the community saw what was going. This
Speaker 3: was like a little bubble, like the jobs, like a
Speaker 3: closed family. Like what happens and what's seen and what
Speaker 3: starts not normal?
Speaker 1: Now, before we go on, because because I think if
Speaker 1: people have listened to part one and now we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about what you've been through in part two
Speaker 1: and look your your journey is a classic and let's
Speaker 1: balance it out. Is a classic example of why there
Speaker 1: needs to be accountability in policing. Because I think what
Speaker 1: went wrong with some of the squads you were in
Speaker 1: there was now accountability.
Speaker 3: Well they all just closed them down, They closed down
Speaker 3: the consorts, they closed down the gaming squad. You know,
Speaker 3: they closed down the savants. They closed offices of sixty
Speaker 3: officers because you know, they just weren't actually doing anything
Speaker 3: or they were so the culture there was so bad
Speaker 3: and they all got an embasty and we're allowed to
Speaker 3: just walk and resign and not take their pension. And
Speaker 3: there was bloody hundreds and hundreds took that option, which
Speaker 3: hate me because of that, you know, Oh my god.
Speaker 3: But you know.
Speaker 2: It's another popularity popularity comment.
Speaker 3: Yeah, excited, but you know it's yeah, it's bloody red
Speaker 3: kill us, isn't it.
Speaker 1: But like what they're bought in on the back of
Speaker 1: the Royal Commission and all the changes that accountability. But
Speaker 1: they've got to get the balance right too, because I
Speaker 1: would get frustrated in homicide that I would joke that
Speaker 1: my team started doing actual homicide work at about one
Speaker 1: o'clock in the afternoon because of all the admin stuff
Speaker 1: that they had to do. But I also in the
Speaker 1: police and corruption in my mind has changed from the
Speaker 1: days that you talk about where it was money and
Speaker 1: you know, everything else that went on, is now people
Speaker 1: are just not working. They're just not doing what they
Speaker 1: should do.
Speaker 3: This is a real shift of this where they just
Speaker 3: the populations grow on.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 3: You know this is with schools, hospitals, you know everything,
Speaker 3: But with the cops and they just sort of they
Speaker 3: just fob you off. They don't do they don't do
Speaker 3: the work when they should. You hand it to a
Speaker 3: plate and they just don't.
Speaker 1: I don't want to bash police. And there's some good
Speaker 1: senior police. There's a great junior police and all in
Speaker 1: the middle. But yeah, the culture can be problematic.
Speaker 3: Yeah there's pockets. There's pockets. Yeah, where there's still stuff.
Speaker 3: I've got a website and people send me stuff and
Speaker 3: they'll go, this station's really off. This is going on,
Speaker 3: this is going Yeah, like I think I threw myself
Speaker 3: on my sword. What what my family and myself suffered?
Speaker 3: And I'm going I have things change? Was it worth it?
Speaker 3: What I went through? Should I have just shut in
Speaker 3: my mouth like everyone else and just smiled? And you
Speaker 3: know I could still be there today?
Speaker 1: You know you must, you must. I couldn't do it, well,
Speaker 1: you must reflect about it. That must cross your mind sometimes.
Speaker 1: Well I could have done that. That would have been
Speaker 1: easier life, a lot less pressure and you get piped out,
Speaker 1: retiring after a stellar for the year career, and and
Speaker 1: everyone everyone would like you, but no, you couldn't do that,
Speaker 1: could you. But you can look at yourself in the
Speaker 1: mirror and go, Okay, well you've done something something that
Speaker 1: was the right thing to do. And I think I'd
Speaker 1: like to think there's more, Well, I say, there's in
Speaker 1: the police. The fact that I thought it was easier
Speaker 1: for people coming in. I'd navigated, I survived through it.
Speaker 1: I could have got through it. But I felt more
Speaker 1: comfortable for people joining the police after the Royal Commission
Speaker 1: had gone through, because I felt sorry for people this
Speaker 1: knowing what potentially they could confront and there's pockets, but
Speaker 1: if they ended up in the wrong area. And I
Speaker 1: felt more comfortable recommending people to join the police people
Speaker 1: that asked me after the Royal Commission, because I knew
Speaker 1: that they weren't going to have all these moral dilemmas
Speaker 1: and issues that you were confronted with, and that during
Speaker 1: the time that we joined the police.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the world changed. And with that would call it
Speaker 3: was groundbreaking.
Speaker 2: It came as a shock and there was an arrogance
Speaker 2: going around when that was in.
Speaker 1: Like the old school thinking they've got nothing. Everyone will
Speaker 1: be staunch and yeah, look how staunch they were.
Speaker 3: All stick together our role. Yeah, and I've seen whole
Speaker 3: offices and they've sat there and they'll get there and
Speaker 3: they'll rewrite their duty book to get the right phrase
Speaker 3: in on a certain day that this is what happened.
Speaker 3: We weren't actually over here, like you know. The old
Speaker 3: duty book. The old duty book helped me because I
Speaker 3: write stuff.
Speaker 1: That it's a funny system, the duty book and explaining
Speaker 1: people what the duty book is about. For any detective,
Speaker 1: you've got to keep a duty book, which is basically
Speaker 1: a diary of what time you start work, who you
Speaker 1: spoke to, and it helps you at more times and
Speaker 1: harms you in if you're doing the right thing. When
Speaker 1: you gave the court I spoke to this person blah
Speaker 1: blah blah, But I think it was your book where
Speaker 1: it might have been. One of the interviews i've heard
Speaker 1: you say is that you're documenting all the shit that
Speaker 1: you were seeing in the duty book, and the senior
Speaker 1: officer has to check the duty books, which is basically
Speaker 1: a tick and flick because you just have not got
Speaker 1: time to read everything that someone says.
Speaker 3: I was going doing this.
Speaker 1: I went on that, And so you've got your supervisor
Speaker 1: ticking it and signing off.
Speaker 3: On it and signing off date and timing it. And
Speaker 3: I'd feel sick every time he did it. And if
Speaker 3: he just read what I'd written, or he would be go,
Speaker 3: what Sishu's saying, I'm a corrupt bastard. Yeah, so that
Speaker 3: was a bit deadly, like that could have gotten a
Speaker 3: good bashion.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's get back to we got you out of
Speaker 1: the got your cars. You didn't got your cars, got
Speaker 1: anyone despite the well meaning police minister. Didn't get anyone. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: let's be fair. One person, but he just kicked the
Speaker 1: window out.
Speaker 3: He kicked the door like tiny little rusty bolts that
Speaker 3: had fall out.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, we've got to try things.
Speaker 1: You don't know if they're going to work until you try.
Speaker 1: You've come to terms with your got the drinking problem
Speaker 1: at this stage understandable. I picked up in the in
Speaker 1: the book that you were going to what's the not
Speaker 1: Alcoholics Anonymous?
Speaker 2: You were going to.
Speaker 1: On for the Iron and John for your parents, right,
Speaker 1: and then you've been going there thinking you're pretty good.
Speaker 1: I'm going to help help my parents and understand what's
Speaker 1: going on. And someone pulled you aside and say, hey, stupid,
Speaker 1: you're in the wrong meeting. You should be next door.
Speaker 2: You're an alcoholic too. Is that basically? Is that how
Speaker 2: it played out? It was, and I shouldn't be laughing.
Speaker 3: It was a very sad day for me. I What
Speaker 3: happened was I went to this counselor and she said, look,
Speaker 3: you need to go to alan On. Your parents aren't normal.
Speaker 3: And I'm going, oh, you know. And they used to
Speaker 3: tell me, you know, you can't get married, You've got
Speaker 3: to stay here forever and look after it. They'd be
Speaker 3: drinking method they'd point to other old families in the district.
Speaker 3: And this kid stayed and looked, you know, and she goes,
Speaker 3: if you ever have a baby, I'll get it by
Speaker 3: its feet and smash its head against a brick wall.
Speaker 3: And charming. She was charming, And I wasn't call a mum.
Speaker 3: And people would go, who's Aaron and John and to
Speaker 3: go there my parents, And back in those days they were.
Speaker 2: Going what basically drinking buddies, Yeah, yeah, oh.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they go and they were saying to me,
Speaker 3: you've got to sit on the veranda and drink with us,
Speaker 3: like this is it?
Speaker 2: How do you break it? Family?
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're all dying here together. And as I stay
Speaker 3: going to alan On, I went, well, I went to
Speaker 3: one meeting and I drove for an hour and a half.
Speaker 3: I went to Mossman and there was all these old
Speaker 3: girls and twin sets and pearls, and I'm going, ah,
Speaker 3: this is recovery, like stab me now, like you know,
Speaker 3: I'm sitting there. My life's not bad enough. Roger wants
Speaker 3: to kill me, you know now I'm here. And anyway,
Speaker 3: they said to me, look, next week, come back and
Speaker 3: bring some milk and put the chairs out. Because the
Speaker 3: AA people used to like he used to always been
Speaker 3: the original meetings used to be in pubs. I guess
Speaker 3: that never worked well and so they moved it to
Speaker 3: school halls and church halls. And so they had been there,
Speaker 3: and then the poor suffering wives would be here. And
Speaker 3: rarely would you get a blake whose wife as our.
Speaker 3: In those days, it was all men, so it was
Speaker 3: like the cops. It was a boys club. They'd all
Speaker 3: be smoking, and you know, you couldn't see the person
Speaker 3: up the front share and their sad story because of
Speaker 3: cigarette smoke, you know. And it was just so I'm
Speaker 3: there and I'm bringing the milk, and I'm going these
Speaker 3: poor buses and milk every week, you know. And I
Speaker 3: didn't know they'd made me secretary of the group. So
Speaker 3: and anyway, I'm going, well, if you had my sad childhood,
Speaker 3: you drink too, you know, And these bases. I got
Speaker 3: to stay pissed because my life's so horrible. And this
Speaker 3: old girl gets me. She's about eighty, and she's frog
Speaker 3: marched me, grabbed me by the shoulders, frog match me
Speaker 3: in the other and she goes, you're in the wrong room.
Speaker 3: You're in the wrong room. You're an alcohol Yeah, I
Speaker 3: can't listen to you. I can't put up with you anymore.
Speaker 3: Get in here. You've got to get sober. And OK.
Speaker 3: So Iron and John were very upset about me joining AA,
Speaker 3: and I didn't want to join AA. And I was
Speaker 3: sitting the meetings, you know, and you know, and I'd
Speaker 3: drank in the cross and I'd got to meetings and
Speaker 3: the cross and be people. I'd locked up and I'm
Speaker 3: trying trying to get so it was just awful. And
Speaker 3: They've gone, look, if you keep going those meetings, and
Speaker 3: talking about it. We're going to kill ourselves. Yeah, so
Speaker 3: you know, and I'm going and I've had enough, al
Speaker 3: and I'm going, if you need to do that, you
Speaker 3: go and do that, you know. And John's chased me
Speaker 3: out to the hedge but the car and He's going,
Speaker 3: I don't want to kill myself. And I'm going, well,
Speaker 3: you know, you know, she's going to make me do it,
Speaker 3: and I'm going, have you got to do it?
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: And so they did it for my twenty sixth birthday.
Speaker 3: It was like a stuff you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they did what for your twenty six birthday?
Speaker 3: Well, basically kill themselves. Like it was like a you know,
Speaker 3: like I had to make a choice between getting sober
Speaker 3: and having AA and having.
Speaker 1: A lie, right, Okay, yeah, I've I've rather Yeah, but
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that was around your twenty sixth birthday.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that.
Speaker 3: Or Or and I wanted to stay in the cops.
Speaker 3: I wanted to get married, I want to have kids,
Speaker 3: I want to have a life. My life was ship Yeah,
Speaker 3: e Glanory, you know, a third generation alcoholic in a
Speaker 3: small country.
Speaker 2: Teamor is out in the back of like I lived
Speaker 2: at Dura for a.
Speaker 3: While half of Glinory had water when I was grown,
Speaker 3: you know, most of them were on tank water. It
Speaker 3: was one shop.
Speaker 1: It was a small little town, long way out. But
Speaker 1: what it might be very nice now, I don't know.
Speaker 2: Still got friends out there, people of Glenaoric, Gleinoria.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's great. It's very flash now, you know. But
Speaker 3: but back then it was the backwards, you know. And
Speaker 3: I was going to die there, you know.
Speaker 1: And so Irene and John. They died close together, didn't they.
Speaker 3: It was a couple of days apart. Like what I did.
Speaker 3: I got this free trip to Fiji. I'm about to
Speaker 3: go to Fiji. And she shows me and she says, now,
Speaker 3: if you don't come home right now, we're going to
Speaker 3: be dead. You've got to take us to the Hornsby Hospital.
Speaker 3: And then what they've done is stop it and stop
Speaker 3: taking their blood pressure pillows, drinking metho. That it was
Speaker 3: a suicide pack. So I drave them through the Gulf
Speaker 3: and Gorge, go on the Hornsby Hospital, sat there for
Speaker 3: about twelve hours. And over the years I'd put him
Speaker 3: in there lots of times. And this was back when
Speaker 3: there was a medical system and I could put him
Speaker 3: in there to dry out a bit and have a break.
Speaker 3: Now you can't get a bed. You're gonna have a
Speaker 3: stroke and they'll leave you sitting in a chair all night.
Speaker 3: You know, you can't even get a bed. And this
Speaker 3: doctor kept saying, I'm not taking them, I'm going You
Speaker 3: got to take them. And they both died, Like they
Speaker 3: both went in there and died within a day, you know.
Speaker 3: But they were teaching me a lesson, you know. But
Speaker 3: I made a choice. And you know, if i'd pick
Speaker 3: up a drink on the twenty seventh of March, I
Speaker 3: have thirty three years up of continual sobriety. It took
Speaker 3: me four and a half years to get each Like
Speaker 3: it took me at a few bus and I'd have
Speaker 3: a one night bust and same thing it'd always happened.
Speaker 3: I'd get very drunk and something bad had happened and
Speaker 3: I'd go, this is so bad, I'm going to And
Speaker 3: you had a lot.
Speaker 1: Of shit happening. So there would have been that temptation,
Speaker 1: But you kept up your commitment with AA and.
Speaker 3: I still went to a meeting last night.
Speaker 2: You just stay stay focused on that.
Speaker 3: That was my commitment to me, and I don't think
Speaker 3: I would have survived all the harassment and bullying and
Speaker 3: what went on.
Speaker 1: Well, tell us what happened when you went to the
Speaker 1: fraud squad, because give a sense of yeah, because I
Speaker 1: know a detective's office and the squad office, how uncomfortable
Speaker 1: they can make it for people if they choose to
Speaker 1: what the day one you turn up, this is a
Speaker 1: new year. You've given up drinking. You want to be
Speaker 1: a good working detective. You've rolled yourself out there.
Speaker 3: You've got and mixed going, don't go, don't go out there,
Speaker 3: it's dangerous.
Speaker 2: And well, what happened when you hit the fraud squad?
Speaker 3: It was like the gaming's God, there was like about
Speaker 3: sixty blokes or forty blokes, I don't know. It was
Speaker 3: a big office with lots of men and there was
Speaker 3: one woman. Yep, so there was two single blokes. Ended
Speaker 3: up with a relationship. I got pregnant, and this is
Speaker 3: where the pregnancy discrimination when they're going, well you've got
Speaker 3: to resign. Now the dinosaurs are going, you've got to resign.
Speaker 3: So that was uncomfortable. I had Kim will Cook come
Speaker 3: up to me and go, you know all about police corruption.
Speaker 3: John Hatton's running around looking to start a would role.
Speaker 3: John Hatton had been trying for twenty years and it
Speaker 3: was just a balance apart parliament.
Speaker 1: Kim Cook introduced that John Hadden, Yeah.
Speaker 3: He didn't, he didn't get involved. He'd had the Malu
Speaker 3: matter on that, but he sort of put me under
Speaker 3: the bus and DEMI knows where all the skeletons are
Speaker 3: and and I just the autism came out. Yeah, there's
Speaker 3: a few bustards like a dabe.
Speaker 1: You've got Hatten looking for people that can give him
Speaker 1: after David's or statements about anyone corruption. You gave him
Speaker 1: multiple statements and you were the only one, but you
Speaker 1: were actually traveling around the state looking for other other
Speaker 1: cops and you'd go.
Speaker 3: Not one person would do it, not one.
Speaker 2: And that was for the fear that they.
Speaker 3: Had or just they had they had wives and mortgages,
Speaker 3: or they were scared they were going to die. They'd
Speaker 3: seen what had happened to Drury when he'd spoken up
Speaker 3: like and said no to Roger, and people were scared
Speaker 3: of dyeing. And Hatten's going I'm going to go to
Speaker 3: parliament with just your and people were going, oh, she's
Speaker 3: a drunken slut basically, you know, they're arguing, and yet
Speaker 3: they had all that film, They had all the film
Speaker 3: to prove that everything I said was true. That Hatton
Speaker 3: had to go with just my stattics. But I was
Speaker 3: the only one that said, yeah, there's corruption, there's current
Speaker 3: corruption in the New South Ast police force. And he
Speaker 3: went there with that. And even when I was getting interviewed,
Speaker 3: they're going, she's a drunken slut, and her cart was going,
Speaker 3: well is she sober? Yeah? Is it true what she's saying? Yeah?
Speaker 3: And he's going, well, why are we arguing all this?
Speaker 1: The way that they can attack And when I say they,
Speaker 1: I'm talking generally in the police. You would have been
Speaker 1: an easy one to tarnish the reputation and that could
Speaker 1: be enough to break a lot of people. You're a
Speaker 1: drunken slut, you've done this, You've slept with all these
Speaker 1: people that they can just pluck out of the air,
Speaker 1: and how do you defend yourself?
Speaker 2: But they don't go out the bloke. They would go
Speaker 2: at the blake differently.
Speaker 3: If that's it's that they tried the hard They used
Speaker 3: to sit off my house and the bloody i'd been
Speaker 3: in an AA meeting, they'd be standing up the back
Speaker 3: of the room, like the cops were trying to break me.
Speaker 3: Before the Royal Commission, I was in the greatest physical
Speaker 3: danger before Hatton went to part like when he went
Speaker 3: to Parliament House and got the wood Royal Commission. That's
Speaker 3: when I felt say, I was in fear in my
Speaker 3: life up until that time and after.
Speaker 1: Didn't you a boss, and I'm not sure you let
Speaker 1: me know if you can mention the person, but turn
Speaker 1: up at your bus stop one time or when something
Speaker 1: There was that.
Speaker 3: Much harassment, it was bloody ridiculous, you know, and being
Speaker 3: stood over and yelled at and slapped and you know,
Speaker 3: it was just no one should have to put up
Speaker 3: with what I copped for years because I was honest.
Speaker 2: You were physically.
Speaker 3: Physical, physically assaulted by cops. Nuts absolutely nuts how I
Speaker 3: was treated and just ostracized, you.
Speaker 1: Know, And tell us about when you get lost sized
Speaker 1: in that environment because it can be.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it hurts more than anything because it's your family,
Speaker 3: Like the police when you go to work, you're trusting
Speaker 3: on your partner to protect you in your life with
Speaker 3: a gun, like you know, it's a club, it's a family.
Speaker 3: And I was pushed out like my biological family rejected me,
Speaker 3: especially because I stopped drinking and I joined the cops.
Speaker 3: But then my police family rejected me. So in one lifetime,
Speaker 3: that's a lot for a person that have to enjoy.
Speaker 3: And now I have a severely disabled son who I'm
Speaker 3: caring for on my own, and that's a hard journey, you.
Speaker 2: Know, extremely hard hard journey.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and full credit to you. You can see there
Speaker 1: have a laugh and the smile on your face with
Speaker 1: all that you've been through. But I know when you
Speaker 1: talk about that police family, I went from I thought
Speaker 1: that people might care, but you got charge. She's talking
Speaker 1: about corruption. I stand by what I did. I'm not
Speaker 1: ashamed of what I did. I was actually doing police work,
Speaker 1: which is a novel idea. So I but the police
Speaker 1: family turning on you, I thought you I thought I
Speaker 1: had had friends that, yeah, rock solid in the brotherhood,
Speaker 1: you know where the cops and people, and I have
Speaker 1: got some good friends in the police and the ones
Speaker 1: that supported me, only a small group that had the
Speaker 1: courage to support me when I was being alienated by
Speaker 1: the organization. They all got victimized and harassed and the
Speaker 1: things make an example. Yeah, yeah, don't don't support don't
Speaker 1: support him, And so that's on. What you went through
Speaker 1: is on steroids compared to what I went through. So
Speaker 1: I can only imagine how difficult it was for you.
Speaker 3: It was horrible. People that just turned their back, Yeah,
Speaker 3: because they're scared they're going to get the same treatment.
Speaker 3: They're going to get tired with the same brush. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's.
Speaker 1: Well, I had people that supported me. Anyone that openly
Speaker 1: supported me got a disadvantage because of because of their support,
Speaker 1: and like the rumors and reputations that can be spread,
Speaker 1: it was also subject to that. I was apparently the
Speaker 1: baddest man in town when when they caught me for
Speaker 1: recording a conversation on the listening device, it calls from
Speaker 1: ABC reporters when it broke in the media that we've
Speaker 1: been told by police sources, this is a tip of
Speaker 1: the iceberg. This is your They're going to get you
Speaker 1: for so many things. Everyone's in fear of their life
Speaker 1: because of you, and blah blah blah, and I just
Speaker 1: sort of just shook my head and that was that
Speaker 1: was police releasing that, releasing that to the media. So
Speaker 1: I bit back and they pulled the head in. But
Speaker 1: it just disgusted me watching when you're when you're going
Speaker 1: against the tide, how.
Speaker 2: They all get hard.
Speaker 1: It can be so what you went through and my
Speaker 1: era when I had hit my hurdle was a lot
Speaker 1: after and weaker than back in your time.
Speaker 2: So I can only imagine what you were going through.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was in fear in my life.
Speaker 1: The Okay, you have been widely recognized as a person
Speaker 1: that was the genesis for the Royal Commission, giving credit
Speaker 1: to Hatton as well.
Speaker 2: Who and was it Morgan? Yeah, because even.
Speaker 1: In the even in the media thing, the police have control,
Speaker 1: Like if you go against the police, you don't get
Speaker 1: the story, that's right. Yeah, so they have the control there.
Speaker 1: So you did make it.
Speaker 3: Arthur King. Arthur King is a wonderful man.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So the Royal Commission that made a difference, Like I
Speaker 1: saw the difference the job change made in the police.
Speaker 2: What's what's your your take on what the results of
Speaker 2: the Royal Commission were.
Speaker 3: I'm I'm sorry that they didn't take seriously like the
Speaker 3: Advisory Commission, that committee that I was on, like you know,
Speaker 3: or that they they look at themselves seriously and I
Speaker 3: think but the culture definitely, I mean while I was there.
Speaker 3: It was a time when there was going from no
Speaker 3: mobile phones to mobile files and computer and so everything
Speaker 3: changed a lot, like I but yeah, it's it's changed
Speaker 3: for the better. There's more women. I think women have
Speaker 3: improved the environment, the.
Speaker 2: Culture a lot more.
Speaker 3: I think, I think society has changed a lot. They
Speaker 3: expect a lot more from police, more answerable and people are,
Speaker 3: you know, willing to speak up more, you know, even
Speaker 3: if it's anonymously through the Internet, there's they're more answerable.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it has has changed, and it has changed
Speaker 1: for the better.
Speaker 3: But but everything's changed for the better. Like things. It's yeah,
Speaker 3: it's society is improves or you know, goes. But how
Speaker 3: it was had to stop just out of control. The
Speaker 3: boys are out of control, Like it was ridiculous, how
Speaker 3: the crooks were basically running the circus in some places,
Speaker 3: you know, like people were jumping the Roger, jumping the
Speaker 3: Lenny McPherson, Louis Bao, who's how holding court everywhere and
Speaker 3: had Jabe Saffron and your Frank car Kim with the
Speaker 3: gaming stuff, and it was.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I agree, people ask how do I think
Speaker 1: about it? Because I was one of the few people
Speaker 1: that was working in major crime detectives prior, during, and
Speaker 1: after the Royal Commission. So I've seen the changes, some
Speaker 1: things for the good, some I didn't like. There was
Speaker 1: who was a deputy commissioner. I think it came out
Speaker 1: and said all detectives are a disgrace and we all
Speaker 1: should be sent back to uniform and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: and that pissed me off. I made a point in
Speaker 1: my career always pushing that detectives do not wear uniforms.
Speaker 1: And because they came up with all these ideas that
Speaker 1: oh we can just put the technives back in uniform,
Speaker 1: it doesn't work. And I did that out of respect
Speaker 1: for the good police. There were some police. We're talking
Speaker 1: about our era, imagine going before it, trying to be
Speaker 1: a good person in that.
Speaker 3: Back before us, there was the tow truck rackets, and
Speaker 3: there was the window rackets where they were smashing the
Speaker 3: windows of shops at night. They had paybacks from the glaziers,
Speaker 3: you know. So there was always been I mean you
Speaker 3: go right back, and the original new Stuface police were convicts,
Speaker 3: you know, they were the rum corps. So there's been
Speaker 3: a slow progression, but I think with the wood world
Speaker 3: commission a lot of the bad apples, and they basically
Speaker 3: they were saying I was a bad apple because I'd
Speaker 3: spoken out. I was the one, and but the bad
Speaker 3: ones got the amnesty and they got to leave and
Speaker 3: they just resigned and they because there were so many,
Speaker 3: there was so much, and they went, we can't do this,
Speaker 3: and they said, we're going to give you all an
Speaker 3: ambasty to walk, if you know. I think that helped
Speaker 3: clean up the cops. A lot too new suffer and
Speaker 3: they were lucky to leave and get charged, you know,
Speaker 3: And there was quite a few that committed suicide. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it was horrible time.
Speaker 1: It was a horrible time. And I wonder how like
Speaker 1: did that sort of play on you too, because there.
Speaker 3: Was oh yeah, people said to me, you're costs people there.
Speaker 2: Fans became very dramatic and.
Speaker 3: Look, I copped a lot of ship.
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask about what's his name, Glenn McNamara,
Speaker 1: talk about talk about like he made a stand and yeah,
Speaker 1: about fighting against corruption and all that. And it was
Speaker 1: a spokesperson I sharing sharing a stage review about fighting
Speaker 1: corruption he.
Speaker 3: Did he did. They said, look, he's doing a book,
Speaker 3: come and support him down the cross. We've got a
Speaker 3: photo in the paper his arm around me, and that
Speaker 3: was an interesting night. But Glenn, Glenn was.
Speaker 1: More good and just to let our listeners or viewers
Speaker 1: in on it. We shouldn't be laughing, but Glenn McNamara
Speaker 1: the pillar of Yeah, it was the former cop that
Speaker 1: got locked up with Roger Rogerson for the murder of Gow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Jamie Gow.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's horrible, horrible murder and he's in prison for
Speaker 1: life with that.
Speaker 3: I used to go down. I used to go down
Speaker 3: and watch him at court and I'd wave Hi, Roger.
Speaker 3: You know, they just look at me, you know, when
Speaker 3: they were charging when that, yeah, when they were Supreme
Speaker 3: Court with that, and just I just felt so good
Speaker 3: to see Roger and the dock, you know, and Roger
Speaker 3: was glaring at me that bitch, you know. And I
Speaker 3: was going to write a book and Duck Emanad was
Speaker 3: there doing a book and he's a good bloke and
Speaker 3: he knocks out a book every year, you know, And
Speaker 3: I thought of but the pleasure I got just seeing
Speaker 3: some because I used to always go there's no calm
Speaker 3: and there's no justice. Why has Roger done all that?
Speaker 3: And there's a lot of stuff Roger did and got
Speaker 3: away with. And I'd go, why is Roger, you know, untouchable?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 3: And he was doing his private inquiry, him and Glenn
Speaker 3: were doing it, and I did the happy dance in
Speaker 3: the lounge room when it came on TV, and he'd
Speaker 3: been looked up and I'm dancing around the lounge room
Speaker 3: and people are looking at me, and I'm just going, finally,
Speaker 3: you know, and this is the modern technology. Like in
Speaker 3: the old days, they could do shit, they could kill people,
Speaker 3: and you.
Speaker 2: Know that that was literally it was a lot easier.
Speaker 2: It wasn't It was a lot easier.
Speaker 3: And he was Roger and everyone was.
Speaker 1: Just Roger, the old dinosaur had not caught up with
Speaker 1: technology that well.
Speaker 3: He had the gunpowder all over him. And it was
Speaker 3: like a video in court because it showed them driving up,
Speaker 3: turning up and Jamie gowerd they'd been over I think
Speaker 3: it was crime commission. Someone else was looking at the
Speaker 3: people that had supplied the drugs, and that's how they
Speaker 3: came on to Roger. And they all got excited like
Speaker 3: it's Roger, you know. And they're at this little bloody
Speaker 3: rental unit and three of them walked in and and
Speaker 3: he two walked out and they're carrying poor little is
Speaker 3: about nineteen, just a little as kid in a softboard
Speaker 3: back and they're staggering him. Roger, you can see Roger,
Speaker 3: he's limp and he's that old you know, he's got
Speaker 3: the hips, hips gone gone and they're carrying the thing
Speaker 3: and they've gone, oh my god, we've got them for kidnapping.
Speaker 3: Oh we're so happy. And you've got the crime mob
Speaker 3: and you've got the bloody homicide mob. And then there
Speaker 3: and then they got the body pops up and they've
Speaker 3: got the video of them at Glenn's units at Kralla
Speaker 3: and they're stepping over the body and drinking beers and
Speaker 3: you know they've put the had to get it go
Speaker 3: and get a hoist to get the body into the boat.
Speaker 3: And because I couldn't even pull the body, the body
Speaker 3: up into the boat, and they've gone down there and
Speaker 3: got the body and dropped the body out of it,
Speaker 3: like like in his old move in Blue Mit, you've
Speaker 3: got to use chains and like these guys use rape.
Speaker 3: And with the tide, it just what through next thing.
Speaker 3: You know, he's little white sneakers are floating up and
Speaker 3: his all bodies flating up on the ocean and Roger's gone,
Speaker 3: He's gone, it's murder. They're fighting over who's going to
Speaker 3: arrest Roger and Glenn for murder, and then they both
Speaker 3: turn on each other and blame each for this show.
Speaker 1: Doesn't it show the character of the people that they're
Speaker 1: so called tough guys. And I saw blokes that had
Speaker 1: reputations that never roll, staunch, all that, and then they
Speaker 1: rolled when the corruption stuff came in.
Speaker 2: There's some bizarre part of.
Speaker 1: Me, or it's not bizarre. I think it's understandable. I
Speaker 1: have more respect for crooks that say, hey, I'm a crook,
Speaker 1: this is a code I live by, and yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to talk to cops. I can understand that
Speaker 1: they might agree with but I understand their moral compass.
Speaker 1: But the cops are the corrupt cops. The hypocrisy of
Speaker 1: it and then hiding behind the badge and the gun, yeah,
Speaker 1: I really have an issue with that.
Speaker 3: But Glenn, Glenn wasn't wasn't honest. I've got a few
Speaker 3: Glenn stories, but but that reputation, yeah, yeah, but you know,
Speaker 3: and it's like.
Speaker 1: So when he was, you know, the champion of exposing
Speaker 1: police corruption and talking about that was he talking to
Speaker 1: talking to you like as an equal, going yes, we
Speaker 1: had to stand up.
Speaker 2: I stood up, your steps stood up.
Speaker 3: It was more I've been a victim and I've been harassed.
Speaker 3: That was his that was his platform, you know. But
Speaker 3: Glenn was always interesting, was in interesting places, and you know,
Speaker 3: he was always going to get in trouble hanging out.
Speaker 3: I just think Roger couldn't stop, like he was a
Speaker 3: cowboy and Glenn to be with him and doing the
Speaker 3: private inquiries. They put some guy in the boot of
Speaker 3: the car just before that he nearly died and they'd
Speaker 3: driven back.
Speaker 2: Well, that was Roger had the charisma, yeah, and.
Speaker 3: Then and could play piano. He was in the geriatric
Speaker 3: section in.
Speaker 2: The in the jar.
Speaker 1: But like everyone that worked with him said, he was charismatic.
Speaker 1: But a couple without naming names of people that I
Speaker 1: consider genuine straight tough guy cops said he was. Really
Speaker 1: he's a physical pussy. He would talk around talker, is
Speaker 1: a tough guy. He shoots people, but he couldn't hold
Speaker 1: his hands up to defend his life. But he had
Speaker 1: that reputation, Oh that's it.
Speaker 3: Every Well, that's how people bowed to him, like that's
Speaker 3: what got me. The cops were all wanting to be
Speaker 3: Roger's mate, and they'd all want to sit around at
Speaker 3: the Chinese he always liked. He liked Chinese, so there's
Speaker 3: a lot of a lot of meals at Chinese restaurants.
Speaker 1: I saw there was a scene from The Underbelly Golden
Speaker 1: Mile with the Chinese restaurant.
Speaker 2: I think I recognize the Chinese restaurant.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that well, the cops are all wearing gold rings,
Speaker 3: and they're my and their gold rings because there was
Speaker 3: a Chinese guy. Theres a couple of you suck car
Speaker 3: sales guys there, but they obviously.
Speaker 2: These are always car salesmen that were as a young detective.
Speaker 1: Vote they don't know the names. They always have memories
Speaker 1: of Oh, just coming for a drink with Blake. What's
Speaker 1: you do is your car?
Speaker 3: Well, it's a good way to a load of money.
Speaker 3: But this was like this Chinese guy. His jewelry shop
Speaker 3: had been broken into it and so all the jewelry
Speaker 3: had gone. But the court seemed to be wearing a
Speaker 3: bit of wearing. But yeah, yeah, they were celebrating. They're
Speaker 3: having a celebratory dinner. Yeah for you know, But it
Speaker 3: was just ridiculous. It was just so out there. Yeah,
Speaker 3: the party and.
Speaker 1: Made no effort to no effort to hide it. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, it was part of the part of the culture.
Speaker 1: Like remember when you started North Sydney, so you would
Speaker 1: have had it. I stationed. I you had to do
Speaker 1: the bread run, which was picular bread from the bakery,
Speaker 1: which was.
Speaker 3: We were six division, we thought paddy wagon with for Christmas.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that was.
Speaker 3: What rank you were, how much be how many cartons
Speaker 3: to be.
Speaker 1: Going round to McDonald's Donald's licensed premises, and it was
Speaker 1: do you want to make a donation to the.
Speaker 2: Christmas party? And cart and a beer in the back
Speaker 2: of the car.
Speaker 3: But that's how society was back it was and that's
Speaker 3: like beer out for the garbage. But we got cartag.
Speaker 2: That's that's right.
Speaker 1: And it was just sort of the next a little
Speaker 1: bit of a creep from that. I always I felt
Speaker 1: uncomfortable with that, and I don't know if that reflection
Speaker 1: of the straight one eighty attitude I had towards it,
Speaker 1: but it was humiliated me walking into the bakery and
Speaker 1: walking out with your tend loaves of bread to take
Speaker 1: back to the police station and the McDonald's that don
Speaker 1: KnightShift didn't help either.
Speaker 3: Free McDonald's.
Speaker 1: Yeah here, we haven't sold this, will drop it off
Speaker 1: and you're seeing there at two o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 3: Yes, but it was a different era.
Speaker 2: It was a it was a different era, but it.
Speaker 3: Was there was a lot of dark shit going on,
Speaker 3: much worse than that behind them, and that was there
Speaker 3: was bad stuff that went and the pedophile what what
Speaker 3: really besides the break and anything and the fingers print.
Speaker 3: I was sitting with this very very senior cop and
Speaker 3: I was pissed, and he was pissed, and he said,
Speaker 3: what's the worst thing you've ever done? And gone, and
Speaker 3: then he was he took money off pedophiles. And that's
Speaker 3: when I've sobered up very quickly, and I'm going, but
Speaker 3: you've got kids, and he goes, yeah, but I know
Speaker 3: who they are, so his kids were safe. And pedophiles
Speaker 3: have always been my pet hate, and I.
Speaker 1: Think there should be everyone's pet hate. Yeah, we've had
Speaker 1: people who have been victims of stuff that went on
Speaker 1: the cross.
Speaker 2: And that's Dolly done stuff. You can't there is no
Speaker 2: way you can justify that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they were taken, Yeah, they were taking money from
Speaker 3: all different people. But taken money from pedophiles. It was
Speaker 3: just that's the lowest of the life.
Speaker 1: I normally normally asked people that have had careers in
Speaker 1: the policing, would they recommend policing now for a while, Well,
Speaker 1: give about But before I asked that, let me ask this.
Speaker 1: Having said that, let me say this, What was it
Speaker 1: that attracted you to becoming a detective in policing. So
Speaker 1: I'm asking you that first, and I'll ask you whether
Speaker 1: you would recommend it.
Speaker 3: Well, it was interesting because like with Underbelly, it was
Speaker 3: The Golden Mile, the series that I did and I
Speaker 3: sold my book rights for that. It was Johnny Braham,
Speaker 3: Kim Hollingsworth and myself. And Kim came from a police family.
Speaker 3: Her father, uncles were police and that, and she ended
Speaker 3: up in the cross as a prostitute and her sisters.
Speaker 3: And I came from a very different family, rough family,
Speaker 3: and I did the opposite and rebelled against my family too,
Speaker 3: and I ended up in the cops. And so it's
Speaker 3: a different sort of lie. I think it's a great life.
Speaker 3: I loved being a cop. I wanted to be a cop.
Speaker 2: I wanted to do the right.
Speaker 1: I was unfortunately as a relatively young detective in homicide
Speaker 1: working with a team.
Speaker 2: I'm just going, wow, yeah, I get paid for.
Speaker 3: This, But it's an adrenaline Russian. You've got the lights
Speaker 3: and the sirens, and you're doing good stuff and you're
Speaker 3: making people's lives better and you're saving the day, and
Speaker 3: you don't know what you're going to do every day
Speaker 3: you walk in the door. I loved being I did
Speaker 3: not want to not be. And I was begging them
Speaker 3: at the end. They had me their blood photocopy and
Speaker 3: I'm going, please fix the problem and let me do
Speaker 3: my job, and they're just going, it's easy to put
Speaker 3: out the spotfires. And that broke my heart. You know.
Speaker 3: They just go around and I was the problem and
Speaker 3: I'm going, but sort Roger, and they just went, no,
Speaker 3: it's easier. It's easier to break you and as a detective,
Speaker 3: sit you down and humiliate you in headquarters at a
Speaker 3: disk where people can come up nasty to photocopy for
Speaker 3: them if they need it.
Speaker 1: What would you recommend if someone, a young person, whether
Speaker 1: its male or female, is listening to this podcast, would
Speaker 1: you recommend policing as a creed?
Speaker 3: Yes, okay, yeah, because it's very character building. It's chammy.
Speaker 3: If you can survive it, I'd say, never let anyone
Speaker 3: own you, never take a dollar, never just enjoy, be safe,
Speaker 3: try and survive it, stay alive. Yeah. Well, it's a
Speaker 3: wonderful family. The family are blue. But when you get ostracite,
Speaker 3: when you get kicked out of the family, it's a
Speaker 3: kick in the guts. It really is. It's bloody horrible.
Speaker 1: And I've heard a person I respect say that the
Speaker 1: only thing you can hang on to is your integrity.
Speaker 1: And if you give your integrity away, you're gone.
Speaker 2: You're gone, You're gone.
Speaker 3: And I've seen people sell them their soul for a
Speaker 3: bloody twenty dollars.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's sad and they're cowards. The couch. You've
Speaker 3: got to have a strong backbone. You know, it's about
Speaker 3: to take the hits on all levels.
Speaker 2: Your book, Watching the Watching the Detectives.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's coming out on audio very soon. Statue for that.
Speaker 3: Read that before I read it, the guys halfway through it,
Speaker 3: the school guy's doing it.
Speaker 2: I did.
Speaker 1: When I say enjoy it. It brought a lot of
Speaker 1: memories back, and that may reflect on a lot of things.
Speaker 1: But it's an interesting read and you don't pull any
Speaker 1: pull any.
Speaker 3: I write like I talk, which means it's very eusy,
Speaker 3: it's very it's real. They wouldn't print a lot of
Speaker 3: it because they were just going, that's un publishable. It's
Speaker 3: not in the public's interest to know that those things
Speaker 3: happened behind closed doors. And you know, so it was
Speaker 3: very well legal, and some of the names were changed
Speaker 3: to protect the guilty. But it's a good road. And
Speaker 3: then there's Underbelly the Golden Mile, through which you know,
Speaker 3: I sold the rights to it for that and and
Speaker 3: like I said, it's coming out in audio. I've got
Speaker 3: a website. If you look up Deborah a lot new Police,
Speaker 3: you'll find me.
Speaker 2: And you do. You're doing a lot of a lot
Speaker 2: of other stuff too.
Speaker 3: And I've always been active with the autism stuff.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: I started up an autism group in the Inner West
Speaker 3: when Hayes was young, which went for about fifteen years.
Speaker 3: And I have a carers group now that I run
Speaker 3: once a month, and you know, support people that are caring.
Speaker 3: And I always like to give back to the Commune.
Speaker 3: And I'm working on a project at the moment in
Speaker 3: relation to women's issues and stuff. So it's like this
Speaker 3: talk's being looking at it from a women's stuff, from
Speaker 3: a women's angle.
Speaker 1: Look, you've gone through life making the difference, and it
Speaker 1: hasn't isn't an easy ride.
Speaker 2: But I love I love your.
Speaker 1: Character that you can still sit here and laugh and
Speaker 1: find some goodness in the world.
Speaker 3: And the world's a better place that I don't drink. Like,
Speaker 3: imagine if I'm like this sober, can you imagine me
Speaker 3: on the grog like I was always. I was always
Speaker 3: everywhere I went, I'd be in trouble, like wherever the
Speaker 3: trouble was, and they'd get me in the But they go,
Speaker 3: we've got ten people, They'll say, you were there that day.
Speaker 3: I'm gone, Remember I was in blackout wherever there was trouble.
Speaker 3: I'm going, there's a drink on.
Speaker 1: Oh I don't get blackout. I just pass out. That's better,
Speaker 1: just pass out instead of the blackout. Hey, I'm going
Speaker 1: to finish. But I just want to say that thank
Speaker 1: you for what you've you've done. And I say that
Speaker 1: with all genuine sincerity that you made a difference in
Speaker 1: the policing. And I think you've made policing for people
Speaker 1: joining so much difference because you had the courage to
Speaker 1: stand up. Your legacy is still carrying on to this day.
Speaker 1: So you should be very proud of yourself.
Speaker 3: And you kin't of fear. You can't fear. You just
Speaker 3: got to live your day and have the best day.
Speaker 2: And I think I think that's the way they'll approach it. There.
Speaker 2: This is what this is what they did.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you've got issues. Yeah, And so occasionally I'll get
Speaker 3: someone pull me up in an elevator or somewhere and
Speaker 3: a starewell, and I'm not afraid. Don't be afraid. You
Speaker 3: can't live your life and fear. You just And that's
Speaker 3: why I travel, That's why the bracelet. I travel a lot,
Speaker 3: and I have a good time and I party. I
Speaker 3: go to a lot of see a lot of live bands,
Speaker 3: and I love my music and I have fun with
Speaker 3: my boy and have a great life and stuff.
Speaker 1: And that's.
Speaker 3: Thanks and thank you Gary for all you do to
Speaker 3: this is great.
Speaker 2: Appreciates.
Speaker 3: It's a bloody hard road. Laugh you've got a laugh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, good stuff.
Speaker 3: H