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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with former

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Speaker 1: New South Wales detective and whistleblower Deborah Locke. If you

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Speaker 1: listen to part one, I think you would have been

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Speaker 1: shocked by what Deborah experience as a young female cop

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Speaker 1: in the eighties. Well, her life did get any simpler

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Speaker 1: after she reported the corruption she'd seen as a young detective,

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Speaker 1: and as you will find out in Part two, things

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Speaker 1: in fact got a lot worse. I love policing, but

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Speaker 1: there were aspects about what occurred in policing that did

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Speaker 1: bring shame to police forces across the country. Welcome back

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Speaker 1: to part two of our Catch Killers. If people have

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Speaker 1: been listening to part one, they're probably thinking, is what

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Speaker 1: is this world we talk of or you talk of?

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Speaker 2: Bob Bla.

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Speaker 3: You know, because you were there.

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Speaker 1: I know, and I think and the only way I

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Speaker 1: can sort of you look back at it and come

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Speaker 1: to terms with it. Society was changing. It was the

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Speaker 1: wild time.

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Speaker 2: So wasn't it.

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Speaker 3: It was a wild West? Yeah, yeah, And it wasn't

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Speaker 3: like society or the community saw what was going. This

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Speaker 3: was like a little bubble, like the jobs, like a

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Speaker 3: closed family. Like what happens and what's seen and what

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Speaker 3: starts not normal?

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Speaker 1: Now, before we go on, because because I think if

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Speaker 1: people have listened to part one and now we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about what you've been through in part two

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Speaker 1: and look your your journey is a classic and let's

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Speaker 1: balance it out. Is a classic example of why there

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Speaker 1: needs to be accountability in policing. Because I think what

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Speaker 1: went wrong with some of the squads you were in

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Speaker 1: there was now accountability.

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Speaker 3: Well they all just closed them down, They closed down

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Speaker 3: the consorts, they closed down the gaming squad. You know,

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Speaker 3: they closed down the savants. They closed offices of sixty

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Speaker 3: officers because you know, they just weren't actually doing anything

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Speaker 3: or they were so the culture there was so bad

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Speaker 3: and they all got an embasty and we're allowed to

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Speaker 3: just walk and resign and not take their pension. And

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Speaker 3: there was bloody hundreds and hundreds took that option, which

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Speaker 3: hate me because of that, you know, Oh my god.

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Speaker 3: But you know.

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Speaker 2: It's another popularity popularity comment.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, excited, but you know it's yeah, it's bloody red

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Speaker 3: kill us, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: But like what they're bought in on the back of

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Speaker 1: the Royal Commission and all the changes that accountability. But

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Speaker 1: they've got to get the balance right too, because I

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Speaker 1: would get frustrated in homicide that I would joke that

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Speaker 1: my team started doing actual homicide work at about one

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Speaker 1: o'clock in the afternoon because of all the admin stuff

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Speaker 1: that they had to do. But I also in the

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Speaker 1: police and corruption in my mind has changed from the

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Speaker 1: days that you talk about where it was money and

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Speaker 1: you know, everything else that went on, is now people

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Speaker 1: are just not working. They're just not doing what they

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Speaker 1: should do.

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Speaker 3: This is a real shift of this where they just

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Speaker 3: the populations grow on.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 3: You know this is with schools, hospitals, you know everything,

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Speaker 3: But with the cops and they just sort of they

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Speaker 3: just fob you off. They don't do they don't do

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Speaker 3: the work when they should. You hand it to a

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Speaker 3: plate and they just don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to bash police. And there's some good

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Speaker 1: senior police. There's a great junior police and all in

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Speaker 1: the middle. But yeah, the culture can be problematic.

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Speaker 3: Yeah there's pockets. There's pockets. Yeah, where there's still stuff.

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Speaker 3: I've got a website and people send me stuff and

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Speaker 3: they'll go, this station's really off. This is going on,

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Speaker 3: this is going Yeah, like I think I threw myself

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Speaker 3: on my sword. What what my family and myself suffered?

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Speaker 3: And I'm going I have things change? Was it worth it?

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Speaker 3: What I went through? Should I have just shut in

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Speaker 3: my mouth like everyone else and just smiled? And you

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Speaker 3: know I could still be there today?

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Speaker 1: You know you must, you must. I couldn't do it, well,

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Speaker 1: you must reflect about it. That must cross your mind sometimes.

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Speaker 1: Well I could have done that. That would have been

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Speaker 1: easier life, a lot less pressure and you get piped out,

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Speaker 1: retiring after a stellar for the year career, and and

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Speaker 1: everyone everyone would like you, but no, you couldn't do that,

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Speaker 1: could you. But you can look at yourself in the

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Speaker 1: mirror and go, Okay, well you've done something something that

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Speaker 1: was the right thing to do. And I think I'd

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Speaker 1: like to think there's more, Well, I say, there's in

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Speaker 1: the police. The fact that I thought it was easier

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Speaker 1: for people coming in. I'd navigated, I survived through it.

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Speaker 1: I could have got through it. But I felt more

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Speaker 1: comfortable for people joining the police after the Royal Commission

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Speaker 1: had gone through, because I felt sorry for people this

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Speaker 1: knowing what potentially they could confront and there's pockets, but

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Speaker 1: if they ended up in the wrong area. And I

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Speaker 1: felt more comfortable recommending people to join the police people

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Speaker 1: that asked me after the Royal Commission, because I knew

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Speaker 1: that they weren't going to have all these moral dilemmas

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Speaker 1: and issues that you were confronted with, and that during

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Speaker 1: the time that we joined the police.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the world changed. And with that would call it

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Speaker 3: was groundbreaking.

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Speaker 2: It came as a shock and there was an arrogance

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Speaker 2: going around when that was in.

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Speaker 1: Like the old school thinking they've got nothing. Everyone will

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Speaker 1: be staunch and yeah, look how staunch they were.

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Speaker 3: All stick together our role. Yeah, and I've seen whole

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Speaker 3: offices and they've sat there and they'll get there and

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Speaker 3: they'll rewrite their duty book to get the right phrase

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Speaker 3: in on a certain day that this is what happened.

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Speaker 3: We weren't actually over here, like you know. The old

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Speaker 3: duty book. The old duty book helped me because I

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Speaker 3: write stuff.

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Speaker 1: That it's a funny system, the duty book and explaining

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Speaker 1: people what the duty book is about. For any detective,

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Speaker 1: you've got to keep a duty book, which is basically

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Speaker 1: a diary of what time you start work, who you

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Speaker 1: spoke to, and it helps you at more times and

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Speaker 1: harms you in if you're doing the right thing. When

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Speaker 1: you gave the court I spoke to this person blah

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Speaker 1: blah blah, But I think it was your book where

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Speaker 1: it might have been. One of the interviews i've heard

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Speaker 1: you say is that you're documenting all the shit that

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Speaker 1: you were seeing in the duty book, and the senior

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Speaker 1: officer has to check the duty books, which is basically

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Speaker 1: a tick and flick because you just have not got

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Speaker 1: time to read everything that someone says.

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Speaker 3: I was going doing this.

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Speaker 1: I went on that, And so you've got your supervisor

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Speaker 1: ticking it and signing off.

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Speaker 3: On it and signing off date and timing it. And

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Speaker 3: I'd feel sick every time he did it. And if

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Speaker 3: he just read what I'd written, or he would be go,

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Speaker 3: what Sishu's saying, I'm a corrupt bastard. Yeah, so that

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Speaker 3: was a bit deadly, like that could have gotten a

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Speaker 3: good bashion.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's get back to we got you out of

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Speaker 1: the got your cars. You didn't got your cars, got

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Speaker 1: anyone despite the well meaning police minister. Didn't get anyone. Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: let's be fair. One person, but he just kicked the

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Speaker 1: window out.

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Speaker 3: He kicked the door like tiny little rusty bolts that

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Speaker 3: had fall out.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, we've got to try things.

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Speaker 1: You don't know if they're going to work until you try.

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Speaker 1: You've come to terms with your got the drinking problem

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Speaker 1: at this stage understandable. I picked up in the in

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Speaker 1: the book that you were going to what's the not

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Speaker 1: Alcoholics Anonymous?

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Speaker 2: You were going to.

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Speaker 1: On for the Iron and John for your parents, right,

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Speaker 1: and then you've been going there thinking you're pretty good.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to help help my parents and understand what's

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Speaker 1: going on. And someone pulled you aside and say, hey, stupid,

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Speaker 1: you're in the wrong meeting. You should be next door.

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Speaker 2: You're an alcoholic too. Is that basically? Is that how

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Speaker 2: it played out? It was, and I shouldn't be laughing.

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Speaker 3: It was a very sad day for me. I What

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Speaker 3: happened was I went to this counselor and she said, look,

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Speaker 3: you need to go to alan On. Your parents aren't normal.

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Speaker 3: And I'm going, oh, you know. And they used to

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Speaker 3: tell me, you know, you can't get married, You've got

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Speaker 3: to stay here forever and look after it. They'd be

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Speaker 3: drinking method they'd point to other old families in the district.

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Speaker 3: And this kid stayed and looked, you know, and she goes,

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Speaker 3: if you ever have a baby, I'll get it by

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Speaker 3: its feet and smash its head against a brick wall.

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Speaker 3: And charming. She was charming, And I wasn't call a mum.

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Speaker 3: And people would go, who's Aaron and John and to

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Speaker 3: go there my parents, And back in those days they were.

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Speaker 2: Going what basically drinking buddies, Yeah, yeah, oh.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and they go and they were saying to me,

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Speaker 3: you've got to sit on the veranda and drink with us,

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Speaker 3: like this is it?

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Speaker 2: How do you break it? Family?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we're all dying here together. And as I stay

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Speaker 3: going to alan On, I went, well, I went to

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Speaker 3: one meeting and I drove for an hour and a half.

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Speaker 3: I went to Mossman and there was all these old

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Speaker 3: girls and twin sets and pearls, and I'm going, ah,

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Speaker 3: this is recovery, like stab me now, like you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm sitting there. My life's not bad enough. Roger wants

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Speaker 3: to kill me, you know now I'm here. And anyway,

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Speaker 3: they said to me, look, next week, come back and

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Speaker 3: bring some milk and put the chairs out. Because the

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Speaker 3: AA people used to like he used to always been

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Speaker 3: the original meetings used to be in pubs. I guess

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Speaker 3: that never worked well and so they moved it to

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Speaker 3: school halls and church halls. And so they had been there,

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Speaker 3: and then the poor suffering wives would be here. And

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Speaker 3: rarely would you get a blake whose wife as our.

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Speaker 3: In those days, it was all men, so it was

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Speaker 3: like the cops. It was a boys club. They'd all

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Speaker 3: be smoking, and you know, you couldn't see the person

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Speaker 3: up the front share and their sad story because of

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Speaker 3: cigarette smoke, you know. And it was just so I'm

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Speaker 3: there and I'm bringing the milk, and I'm going these

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Speaker 3: poor buses and milk every week, you know. And I

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Speaker 3: didn't know they'd made me secretary of the group. So

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Speaker 3: and anyway, I'm going, well, if you had my sad childhood,

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Speaker 3: you drink too, you know, And these bases. I got

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Speaker 3: to stay pissed because my life's so horrible. And this

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Speaker 3: old girl gets me. She's about eighty, and she's frog

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Speaker 3: marched me, grabbed me by the shoulders, frog match me

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Speaker 3: in the other and she goes, you're in the wrong room.

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Speaker 3: You're in the wrong room. You're an alcohol Yeah, I

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Speaker 3: can't listen to you. I can't put up with you anymore.

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Speaker 3: Get in here. You've got to get sober. And OK.

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Speaker 3: So Iron and John were very upset about me joining AA,

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Speaker 3: and I didn't want to join AA. And I was

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Speaker 3: sitting the meetings, you know, and you know, and I'd

225
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Speaker 3: drank in the cross and I'd got to meetings and

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Speaker 3: the cross and be people. I'd locked up and I'm

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Speaker 3: trying trying to get so it was just awful. And

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Speaker 3: They've gone, look, if you keep going those meetings, and

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Speaker 3: talking about it. We're going to kill ourselves. Yeah, so

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Speaker 3: you know, and I'm going and I've had enough, al

231
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Speaker 3: and I'm going, if you need to do that, you

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Speaker 3: go and do that, you know. And John's chased me

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Speaker 3: out to the hedge but the car and He's going,

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Speaker 3: I don't want to kill myself. And I'm going, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, you know, she's going to make me do it,

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Speaker 3: and I'm going, have you got to do it?

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: And so they did it for my twenty sixth birthday.

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Speaker 3: It was like a stuff you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they did what for your twenty six birthday?

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Speaker 3: Well, basically kill themselves. Like it was like a you know,

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Speaker 3: like I had to make a choice between getting sober

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Speaker 3: and having AA and having.

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Speaker 1: A lie, right, Okay, yeah, I've I've rather Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize that was around your twenty sixth birthday.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that.

247
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Speaker 3: Or Or and I wanted to stay in the cops.

248
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Speaker 3: I wanted to get married, I want to have kids,

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Speaker 3: I want to have a life. My life was ship Yeah,

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Speaker 3: e Glanory, you know, a third generation alcoholic in a

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Speaker 3: small country.

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Speaker 2: Teamor is out in the back of like I lived

253
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Speaker 2: at Dura for a.

254
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Speaker 3: While half of Glinory had water when I was grown,

255
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Speaker 3: you know, most of them were on tank water. It

256
00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:06,839
Speaker 3: was one shop.

257
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Speaker 1: It was a small little town, long way out. But

258
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Speaker 1: what it might be very nice now, I don't know.

259
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Speaker 2: Still got friends out there, people of Glenaoric, Gleinoria.

260
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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's great. It's very flash now, you know. But

261
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Speaker 3: but back then it was the backwards, you know. And

262
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Speaker 3: I was going to die there, you know.

263
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Speaker 1: And so Irene and John. They died close together, didn't they.

264
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Speaker 3: It was a couple of days apart. Like what I did.

265
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Speaker 3: I got this free trip to Fiji. I'm about to

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Speaker 3: go to Fiji. And she shows me and she says, now,

267
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Speaker 3: if you don't come home right now, we're going to

268
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Speaker 3: be dead. You've got to take us to the Hornsby Hospital.

269
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Speaker 3: And then what they've done is stop it and stop

270
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Speaker 3: taking their blood pressure pillows, drinking metho. That it was

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Speaker 3: a suicide pack. So I drave them through the Gulf

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Speaker 3: and Gorge, go on the Hornsby Hospital, sat there for

273
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Speaker 3: about twelve hours. And over the years I'd put him

274
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Speaker 3: in there lots of times. And this was back when

275
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Speaker 3: there was a medical system and I could put him

276
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Speaker 3: in there to dry out a bit and have a break.

277
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Speaker 3: Now you can't get a bed. You're gonna have a

278
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Speaker 3: stroke and they'll leave you sitting in a chair all night.

279
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Speaker 3: You know, you can't even get a bed. And this

280
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Speaker 3: doctor kept saying, I'm not taking them, I'm going You

281
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Speaker 3: got to take them. And they both died, Like they

282
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Speaker 3: both went in there and died within a day, you know.

283
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Speaker 3: But they were teaching me a lesson, you know. But

284
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Speaker 3: I made a choice. And you know, if i'd pick

285
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Speaker 3: up a drink on the twenty seventh of March, I

286
00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,280
Speaker 3: have thirty three years up of continual sobriety. It took

287
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Speaker 3: me four and a half years to get each Like

288
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Speaker 3: it took me at a few bus and I'd have

289
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Speaker 3: a one night bust and same thing it'd always happened.

290
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Speaker 3: I'd get very drunk and something bad had happened and

291
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Speaker 3: I'd go, this is so bad, I'm going to And

292
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Speaker 3: you had a lot.

293
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Speaker 1: Of shit happening. So there would have been that temptation,

294
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Speaker 1: But you kept up your commitment with AA and.

295
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Speaker 3: I still went to a meeting last night.

296
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Speaker 2: You just stay stay focused on that.

297
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Speaker 3: That was my commitment to me, and I don't think

298
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Speaker 3: I would have survived all the harassment and bullying and

299
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Speaker 3: what went on.

300
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Speaker 1: Well, tell us what happened when you went to the

301
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Speaker 1: fraud squad, because give a sense of yeah, because I

302
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,920
Speaker 1: know a detective's office and the squad office, how uncomfortable

303
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,080
Speaker 1: they can make it for people if they choose to

304
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Speaker 1: what the day one you turn up, this is a

305
00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,680
Speaker 1: new year. You've given up drinking. You want to be

306
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Speaker 1: a good working detective. You've rolled yourself out there.

307
00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,760
Speaker 3: You've got and mixed going, don't go, don't go out there,

308
00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:25,920
Speaker 3: it's dangerous.

309
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Speaker 2: And well, what happened when you hit the fraud squad?

310
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Speaker 3: It was like the gaming's God, there was like about

311
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Speaker 3: sixty blokes or forty blokes, I don't know. It was

312
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,400
Speaker 3: a big office with lots of men and there was

313
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Speaker 3: one woman. Yep, so there was two single blokes. Ended

314
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Speaker 3: up with a relationship. I got pregnant, and this is

315
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,200
Speaker 3: where the pregnancy discrimination when they're going, well you've got

316
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,520
Speaker 3: to resign. Now the dinosaurs are going, you've got to resign.

317
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:50,960
Speaker 3: So that was uncomfortable. I had Kim will Cook come

318
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Speaker 3: up to me and go, you know all about police corruption.

319
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Speaker 3: John Hatton's running around looking to start a would role.

320
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Speaker 3: John Hatton had been trying for twenty years and it

321
00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:00,360
Speaker 3: was just a balance apart parliament.

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Speaker 1: Kim Cook introduced that John Hadden, Yeah.

323
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Speaker 3: He didn't, he didn't get involved. He'd had the Malu

324
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Speaker 3: matter on that, but he sort of put me under

325
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Speaker 3: the bus and DEMI knows where all the skeletons are

326
00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:16,960
Speaker 3: and and I just the autism came out. Yeah, there's

327
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Speaker 3: a few bustards like a dabe.

328
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Speaker 1: You've got Hatten looking for people that can give him

329
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Speaker 1: after David's or statements about anyone corruption. You gave him

330
00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,720
Speaker 1: multiple statements and you were the only one, but you

331
00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,040
Speaker 1: were actually traveling around the state looking for other other

332
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Speaker 1: cops and you'd go.

333
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,800
Speaker 3: Not one person would do it, not one.

334
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,440
Speaker 2: And that was for the fear that they.

335
00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:47,280
Speaker 3: Had or just they had they had wives and mortgages,

336
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:49,600
Speaker 3: or they were scared they were going to die. They'd

337
00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:51,960
Speaker 3: seen what had happened to Drury when he'd spoken up

338
00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,600
Speaker 3: like and said no to Roger, and people were scared

339
00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,480
Speaker 3: of dyeing. And Hatten's going I'm going to go to

340
00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,480
Speaker 3: parliament with just your and people were going, oh, she's

341
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,920
Speaker 3: a drunken slut basically, you know, they're arguing, and yet

342
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:07,680
Speaker 3: they had all that film, They had all the film

343
00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,320
Speaker 3: to prove that everything I said was true. That Hatton

344
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,120
Speaker 3: had to go with just my stattics. But I was

345
00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,200
Speaker 3: the only one that said, yeah, there's corruption, there's current

346
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,120
Speaker 3: corruption in the New South Ast police force. And he

347
00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,880
Speaker 3: went there with that. And even when I was getting interviewed,

348
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,760
Speaker 3: they're going, she's a drunken slut, and her cart was going,

349
00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:31,800
Speaker 3: well is she sober? Yeah? Is it true what she's saying? Yeah?

350
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,240
Speaker 3: And he's going, well, why are we arguing all this?

351
00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,800
Speaker 1: The way that they can attack And when I say they,

352
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,040
Speaker 1: I'm talking generally in the police. You would have been

353
00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,920
Speaker 1: an easy one to tarnish the reputation and that could

354
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,640
Speaker 1: be enough to break a lot of people. You're a

355
00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,680
Speaker 1: drunken slut, you've done this, You've slept with all these

356
00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,360
Speaker 1: people that they can just pluck out of the air,

357
00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:53,880
Speaker 1: and how do you defend yourself?

358
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,280
Speaker 2: But they don't go out the bloke. They would go

359
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:57,320
Speaker 2: at the blake differently.

360
00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:01,000
Speaker 3: If that's it's that they tried the hard They used

361
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,440
Speaker 3: to sit off my house and the bloody i'd been

362
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,200
Speaker 3: in an AA meeting, they'd be standing up the back

363
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:06,919
Speaker 3: of the room, like the cops were trying to break me.

364
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,199
Speaker 3: Before the Royal Commission, I was in the greatest physical

365
00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,439
Speaker 3: danger before Hatton went to part like when he went

366
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,359
Speaker 3: to Parliament House and got the wood Royal Commission. That's

367
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,600
Speaker 3: when I felt say, I was in fear in my

368
00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,720
Speaker 3: life up until that time and after.

369
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:27,200
Speaker 1: Didn't you a boss, and I'm not sure you let

370
00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,400
Speaker 1: me know if you can mention the person, but turn

371
00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,000
Speaker 1: up at your bus stop one time or when something

372
00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:33,080
Speaker 1: There was that.

373
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:38,359
Speaker 3: Much harassment, it was bloody ridiculous, you know, and being

374
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,639
Speaker 3: stood over and yelled at and slapped and you know,

375
00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,760
Speaker 3: it was just no one should have to put up

376
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,480
Speaker 3: with what I copped for years because I was honest.

377
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,200
Speaker 2: You were physically.

378
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:53,400
Speaker 3: Physical, physically assaulted by cops. Nuts absolutely nuts how I

379
00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,640
Speaker 3: was treated and just ostracized, you.

380
00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,439
Speaker 1: Know, And tell us about when you get lost sized

381
00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:02,520
Speaker 1: in that environment because it can be.

382
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it hurts more than anything because it's your family,

383
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,760
Speaker 3: Like the police when you go to work, you're trusting

384
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,199
Speaker 3: on your partner to protect you in your life with

385
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,679
Speaker 3: a gun, like you know, it's a club, it's a family.

386
00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,639
Speaker 3: And I was pushed out like my biological family rejected me,

387
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,080
Speaker 3: especially because I stopped drinking and I joined the cops.

388
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:29,440
Speaker 3: But then my police family rejected me. So in one lifetime,

389
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,200
Speaker 3: that's a lot for a person that have to enjoy.

390
00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,400
Speaker 3: And now I have a severely disabled son who I'm

391
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:39,200
Speaker 3: caring for on my own, and that's a hard journey, you.

392
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:43,439
Speaker 2: Know, extremely hard hard journey.

393
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and full credit to you. You can see there

394
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,000
Speaker 1: have a laugh and the smile on your face with

395
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,159
Speaker 1: all that you've been through. But I know when you

396
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,800
Speaker 1: talk about that police family, I went from I thought

397
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:58,080
Speaker 1: that people might care, but you got charge. She's talking

398
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,119
Speaker 1: about corruption. I stand by what I did. I'm not

399
00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:03,320
Speaker 1: ashamed of what I did. I was actually doing police work,

400
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:08,560
Speaker 1: which is a novel idea. So I but the police

401
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,119
Speaker 1: family turning on you, I thought you I thought I

402
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,800
Speaker 1: had had friends that, yeah, rock solid in the brotherhood,

403
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:21,560
Speaker 1: you know where the cops and people, and I have

404
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:23,560
Speaker 1: got some good friends in the police and the ones

405
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,760
Speaker 1: that supported me, only a small group that had the

406
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,879
Speaker 1: courage to support me when I was being alienated by

407
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:33,439
Speaker 1: the organization. They all got victimized and harassed and the

408
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,000
Speaker 1: things make an example. Yeah, yeah, don't don't support don't

409
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,080
Speaker 1: support him, And so that's on. What you went through

410
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,280
Speaker 1: is on steroids compared to what I went through. So

411
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,399
Speaker 1: I can only imagine how difficult it was for you.

412
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,480
Speaker 3: It was horrible. People that just turned their back, Yeah,

413
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:52,560
Speaker 3: because they're scared they're going to get the same treatment.

414
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,360
Speaker 3: They're going to get tired with the same brush. Yeah,

415
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,639
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's.

416
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,160
Speaker 1: Well, I had people that supported me. Anyone that openly

417
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:06,480
Speaker 1: supported me got a disadvantage because of because of their support,

418
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,879
Speaker 1: and like the rumors and reputations that can be spread,

419
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,160
Speaker 1: it was also subject to that. I was apparently the

420
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,679
Speaker 1: baddest man in town when when they caught me for

421
00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,560
Speaker 1: recording a conversation on the listening device, it calls from

422
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,320
Speaker 1: ABC reporters when it broke in the media that we've

423
00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,560
Speaker 1: been told by police sources, this is a tip of

424
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,560
Speaker 1: the iceberg. This is your They're going to get you

425
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,080
Speaker 1: for so many things. Everyone's in fear of their life

426
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,639
Speaker 1: because of you, and blah blah blah, and I just

427
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,280
Speaker 1: sort of just shook my head and that was that

428
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,639
Speaker 1: was police releasing that, releasing that to the media. So

429
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,439
Speaker 1: I bit back and they pulled the head in. But

430
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,000
Speaker 1: it just disgusted me watching when you're when you're going

431
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,360
Speaker 1: against the tide, how.

432
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:53,640
Speaker 2: They all get hard.

433
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,240
Speaker 1: It can be so what you went through and my

434
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,800
Speaker 1: era when I had hit my hurdle was a lot

435
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,840
Speaker 1: after and weaker than back in your time.

436
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:04,920
Speaker 2: So I can only imagine what you were going through.

437
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was in fear in my life.

438
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:14,000
Speaker 1: The Okay, you have been widely recognized as a person

439
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,880
Speaker 1: that was the genesis for the Royal Commission, giving credit

440
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 1: to Hatton as well.

441
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:24,480
Speaker 2: Who and was it Morgan? Yeah, because even.

442
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 1: In the even in the media thing, the police have control,

443
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,520
Speaker 1: Like if you go against the police, you don't get

444
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,440
Speaker 1: the story, that's right. Yeah, so they have the control there.

445
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 1: So you did make it.

446
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 3: Arthur King. Arthur King is a wonderful man.

447
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:38,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

448
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 1: So the Royal Commission that made a difference, Like I

449
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 1: saw the difference the job change made in the police.

450
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,159
Speaker 2: What's what's your your take on what the results of

451
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,120
Speaker 2: the Royal Commission were.

452
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 3: I'm I'm sorry that they didn't take seriously like the

453
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 3: Advisory Commission, that committee that I was on, like you know,

454
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 3: or that they they look at themselves seriously and I

455
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 3: think but the culture definitely, I mean while I was there.

456
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 3: It was a time when there was going from no

457
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,479
Speaker 3: mobile phones to mobile files and computer and so everything

458
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 3: changed a lot, like I but yeah, it's it's changed

459
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,119
Speaker 3: for the better. There's more women. I think women have

460
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 3: improved the environment, the.

461
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 2: Culture a lot more.

462
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,719
Speaker 3: I think, I think society has changed a lot. They

463
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 3: expect a lot more from police, more answerable and people are,

464
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 3: you know, willing to speak up more, you know, even

465
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:44,120
Speaker 3: if it's anonymously through the Internet, there's they're more answerable.

466
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 1: But yeah, it has has changed, and it has changed

467
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 1: for the better.

468
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 3: But but everything's changed for the better. Like things. It's yeah,

469
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:58,680
Speaker 3: it's society is improves or you know, goes. But how

470
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 3: it was had to stop just out of control. The

471
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 3: boys are out of control, Like it was ridiculous, how

472
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 3: the crooks were basically running the circus in some places,

473
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,720
Speaker 3: you know, like people were jumping the Roger, jumping the

474
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 3: Lenny McPherson, Louis Bao, who's how holding court everywhere and

475
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 3: had Jabe Saffron and your Frank car Kim with the

476
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 3: gaming stuff, and it was.

477
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I agree, people ask how do I think

478
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 1: about it? Because I was one of the few people

479
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 1: that was working in major crime detectives prior, during, and

480
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 1: after the Royal Commission. So I've seen the changes, some

481
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,439
Speaker 1: things for the good, some I didn't like. There was

482
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 1: who was a deputy commissioner. I think it came out

483
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 1: and said all detectives are a disgrace and we all

484
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 1: should be sent back to uniform and stuff like that,

485
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 1: and that pissed me off. I made a point in

486
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,680
Speaker 1: my career always pushing that detectives do not wear uniforms.

487
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,919
Speaker 1: And because they came up with all these ideas that

488
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 1: oh we can just put the technives back in uniform,

489
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 1: it doesn't work. And I did that out of respect

490
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 1: for the good police. There were some police. We're talking

491
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 1: about our era, imagine going before it, trying to be

492
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 1: a good person in that.

493
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 3: Back before us, there was the tow truck rackets, and

494
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 3: there was the window rackets where they were smashing the

495
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 3: windows of shops at night. They had paybacks from the glaziers,

496
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 3: you know. So there was always been I mean you

497
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 3: go right back, and the original new Stuface police were convicts,

498
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 3: you know, they were the rum corps. So there's been

499
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 3: a slow progression, but I think with the wood world

500
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 3: commission a lot of the bad apples, and they basically

501
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 3: they were saying I was a bad apple because I'd

502
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 3: spoken out. I was the one, and but the bad

503
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 3: ones got the amnesty and they got to leave and

504
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 3: they just resigned and they because there were so many,

505
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 3: there was so much, and they went, we can't do this,

506
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 3: and they said, we're going to give you all an

507
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 3: ambasty to walk, if you know. I think that helped

508
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 3: clean up the cops. A lot too new suffer and

509
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 3: they were lucky to leave and get charged, you know,

510
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 3: And there was quite a few that committed suicide. Yeah,

511
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 3: it was horrible time.

512
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 1: It was a horrible time. And I wonder how like

513
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 1: did that sort of play on you too, because there.

514
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,360
Speaker 3: Was oh yeah, people said to me, you're costs people there.

515
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 2: Fans became very dramatic and.

516
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 3: Look, I copped a lot of ship.

517
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask about what's his name, Glenn McNamara,

518
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: talk about talk about like he made a stand and yeah,

519
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: about fighting against corruption and all that. And it was

520
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 1: a spokesperson I sharing sharing a stage review about fighting

521
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: corruption he.

522
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 3: Did he did. They said, look, he's doing a book,

523
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:45,639
Speaker 3: come and support him down the cross. We've got a

524
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 3: photo in the paper his arm around me, and that

525
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,120
Speaker 3: was an interesting night. But Glenn, Glenn was.

526
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: More good and just to let our listeners or viewers

527
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: in on it. We shouldn't be laughing, but Glenn McNamara

528
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: the pillar of Yeah, it was the former cop that

529
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: got locked up with Roger Rogerson for the murder of Gow.

530
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, Jamie Gow.

531
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

532
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's horrible, horrible murder and he's in prison for

533
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: life with that.

534
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 3: I used to go down. I used to go down

535
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 3: and watch him at court and I'd wave Hi, Roger.

536
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,239
Speaker 3: You know, they just look at me, you know, when

537
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 3: they were charging when that, yeah, when they were Supreme

538
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 3: Court with that, and just I just felt so good

539
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 3: to see Roger and the dock, you know, and Roger

540
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 3: was glaring at me that bitch, you know. And I

541
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 3: was going to write a book and Duck Emanad was

542
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 3: there doing a book and he's a good bloke and

543
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 3: he knocks out a book every year, you know, And

544
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 3: I thought of but the pleasure I got just seeing

545
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 3: some because I used to always go there's no calm

546
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 3: and there's no justice. Why has Roger done all that?

547
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 3: And there's a lot of stuff Roger did and got

548
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 3: away with. And I'd go, why is Roger, you know, untouchable?

549
00:26:59,440 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 2: You know?

550
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 3: And he was doing his private inquiry, him and Glenn

551
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 3: were doing it, and I did the happy dance in

552
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 3: the lounge room when it came on TV, and he'd

553
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 3: been looked up and I'm dancing around the lounge room

554
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 3: and people are looking at me, and I'm just going, finally,

555
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 3: you know, and this is the modern technology. Like in

556
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 3: the old days, they could do shit, they could kill people,

557
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 3: and you.

558
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 2: Know that that was literally it was a lot easier.

559
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 2: It wasn't It was a lot easier.

560
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 3: And he was Roger and everyone was.

561
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 1: Just Roger, the old dinosaur had not caught up with

562
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: technology that well.

563
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 3: He had the gunpowder all over him. And it was

564
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 3: like a video in court because it showed them driving up,

565
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 3: turning up and Jamie gowerd they'd been over I think

566
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 3: it was crime commission. Someone else was looking at the

567
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 3: people that had supplied the drugs, and that's how they

568
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 3: came on to Roger. And they all got excited like

569
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 3: it's Roger, you know. And they're at this little bloody

570
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 3: rental unit and three of them walked in and and

571
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 3: he two walked out and they're carrying poor little is

572
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 3: about nineteen, just a little as kid in a softboard

573
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 3: back and they're staggering him. Roger, you can see Roger,

574
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 3: he's limp and he's that old you know, he's got

575
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 3: the hips, hips gone gone and they're carrying the thing

576
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 3: and they've gone, oh my god, we've got them for kidnapping.

577
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 3: Oh we're so happy. And you've got the crime mob

578
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 3: and you've got the bloody homicide mob. And then there

579
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 3: and then they got the body pops up and they've

580
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 3: got the video of them at Glenn's units at Kralla

581
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 3: and they're stepping over the body and drinking beers and

582
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 3: you know they've put the had to get it go

583
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 3: and get a hoist to get the body into the boat.

584
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 3: And because I couldn't even pull the body, the body

585
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 3: up into the boat, and they've gone down there and

586
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 3: got the body and dropped the body out of it,

587
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 3: like like in his old move in Blue Mit, you've

588
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 3: got to use chains and like these guys use rape.

589
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 3: And with the tide, it just what through next thing.

590
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 3: You know, he's little white sneakers are floating up and

591
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 3: his all bodies flating up on the ocean and Roger's gone,

592
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 3: He's gone, it's murder. They're fighting over who's going to

593
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 3: arrest Roger and Glenn for murder, and then they both

594
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 3: turn on each other and blame each for this show.

595
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: Doesn't it show the character of the people that they're

596
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: so called tough guys. And I saw blokes that had

597
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: reputations that never roll, staunch, all that, and then they

598
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: rolled when the corruption stuff came in.

599
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 2: There's some bizarre part of.

600
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: Me, or it's not bizarre. I think it's understandable. I

601
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 1: have more respect for crooks that say, hey, I'm a crook,

602
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: this is a code I live by, and yeah, I'm

603
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: not going to talk to cops. I can understand that

604
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: they might agree with but I understand their moral compass.

605
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: But the cops are the corrupt cops. The hypocrisy of

606
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: it and then hiding behind the badge and the gun, yeah,

607
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: I really have an issue with that.

608
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 3: But Glenn, Glenn wasn't wasn't honest. I've got a few

609
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 3: Glenn stories, but but that reputation, yeah, yeah, but you know,

610
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 3: and it's like.

611
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: So when he was, you know, the champion of exposing

612
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: police corruption and talking about that was he talking to

613
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: talking to you like as an equal, going yes, we

614
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: had to stand up.

615
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 2: I stood up, your steps stood up.

616
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 3: It was more I've been a victim and I've been harassed.

617
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 3: That was his that was his platform, you know. But

618
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 3: Glenn was always interesting, was in interesting places, and you know,

619
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 3: he was always going to get in trouble hanging out.

620
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 3: I just think Roger couldn't stop, like he was a

621
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 3: cowboy and Glenn to be with him and doing the

622
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 3: private inquiries. They put some guy in the boot of

623
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 3: the car just before that he nearly died and they'd

624
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 3: driven back.

625
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 2: Well, that was Roger had the charisma, yeah, and.

626
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 3: Then and could play piano. He was in the geriatric

627
00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 3: section in.

628
00:30:59,160 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: The in the jar.

629
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: But like everyone that worked with him said, he was charismatic.

630
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: But a couple without naming names of people that I

631
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: consider genuine straight tough guy cops said he was. Really

632
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 1: he's a physical pussy. He would talk around talker, is

633
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 1: a tough guy. He shoots people, but he couldn't hold

634
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: his hands up to defend his life. But he had

635
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: that reputation, Oh that's it.

636
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 3: Every Well, that's how people bowed to him, like that's

637
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 3: what got me. The cops were all wanting to be

638
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 3: Roger's mate, and they'd all want to sit around at

639
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 3: the Chinese he always liked. He liked Chinese, so there's

640
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 3: a lot of a lot of meals at Chinese restaurants.

641
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: I saw there was a scene from The Underbelly Golden

642
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: Mile with the Chinese restaurant.

643
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 2: I think I recognize the Chinese restaurant.

644
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that well, the cops are all wearing gold rings,

645
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 3: and they're my and their gold rings because there was

646
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 3: a Chinese guy. Theres a couple of you suck car

647
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 3: sales guys there, but they obviously.

648
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 2: These are always car salesmen that were as a young detective.

649
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 1: Vote they don't know the names. They always have memories

650
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 1: of Oh, just coming for a drink with Blake. What's

651
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:01,239
Speaker 1: you do is your car?

652
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 3: Well, it's a good way to a load of money.

653
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 3: But this was like this Chinese guy. His jewelry shop

654
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 3: had been broken into it and so all the jewelry

655
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 3: had gone. But the court seemed to be wearing a

656
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 3: bit of wearing. But yeah, yeah, they were celebrating. They're

657
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 3: having a celebratory dinner. Yeah for you know, But it

658
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 3: was just ridiculous. It was just so out there. Yeah,

659
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 3: the party and.

660
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: Made no effort to no effort to hide it. Well,

661
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: you know, it was part of the part of the culture.

662
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: Like remember when you started North Sydney, so you would

663
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: have had it. I stationed. I you had to do

664
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 1: the bread run, which was picular bread from the bakery,

665
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: which was.

666
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 3: We were six division, we thought paddy wagon with for Christmas.

667
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that was.

668
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 3: What rank you were, how much be how many cartons

669
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 3: to be.

670
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: Going round to McDonald's Donald's licensed premises, and it was

671
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: do you want to make a donation to the.

672
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 2: Christmas party? And cart and a beer in the back

673
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 2: of the car.

674
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 3: But that's how society was back it was and that's

675
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 3: like beer out for the garbage. But we got cartag.

676
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 2: That's that's right.

677
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: And it was just sort of the next a little

678
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: bit of a creep from that. I always I felt

679
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: uncomfortable with that, and I don't know if that reflection

680
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: of the straight one eighty attitude I had towards it,

681
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 1: but it was humiliated me walking into the bakery and

682
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: walking out with your tend loaves of bread to take

683
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: back to the police station and the McDonald's that don

684
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: KnightShift didn't help either.

685
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 3: Free McDonald's.

686
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: Yeah here, we haven't sold this, will drop it off

687
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: and you're seeing there at two o'clock in the morning.

688
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 3: Yes, but it was a different era.

689
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 2: It was a it was a different era, but it.

690
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 3: Was there was a lot of dark shit going on,

691
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 3: much worse than that behind them, and that was there

692
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 3: was bad stuff that went and the pedophile what what

693
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 3: really besides the break and anything and the fingers print.

694
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 3: I was sitting with this very very senior cop and

695
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 3: I was pissed, and he was pissed, and he said,

696
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 3: what's the worst thing you've ever done? And gone, and

697
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 3: then he was he took money off pedophiles. And that's

698
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 3: when I've sobered up very quickly, and I'm going, but

699
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 3: you've got kids, and he goes, yeah, but I know

700
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 3: who they are, so his kids were safe. And pedophiles

701
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 3: have always been my pet hate, and I.

702
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: Think there should be everyone's pet hate. Yeah, we've had

703
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 1: people who have been victims of stuff that went on

704
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: the cross.

705
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 2: And that's Dolly done stuff. You can't there is no

706
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 2: way you can justify that.

707
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, they were taken, Yeah, they were taking money from

708
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 3: all different people. But taken money from pedophiles. It was

709
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 3: just that's the lowest of the life.

710
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 1: I normally normally asked people that have had careers in

711
00:34:55,640 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 1: the policing, would they recommend policing now for a while, Well,

712
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: give about But before I asked that, let me ask this.

713
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: Having said that, let me say this, What was it

714
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: that attracted you to becoming a detective in policing. So

715
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: I'm asking you that first, and I'll ask you whether

716
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: you would recommend it.

717
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 3: Well, it was interesting because like with Underbelly, it was

718
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 3: The Golden Mile, the series that I did and I

719
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 3: sold my book rights for that. It was Johnny Braham,

720
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,240
Speaker 3: Kim Hollingsworth and myself. And Kim came from a police family.

721
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 3: Her father, uncles were police and that, and she ended

722
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 3: up in the cross as a prostitute and her sisters.

723
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 3: And I came from a very different family, rough family,

724
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 3: and I did the opposite and rebelled against my family too,

725
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,879
Speaker 3: and I ended up in the cops. And so it's

726
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 3: a different sort of lie. I think it's a great life.

727
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 3: I loved being a cop. I wanted to be a cop.

728
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 2: I wanted to do the right.

729
00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 1: I was unfortunately as a relatively young detective in homicide

730
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:01,919
Speaker 1: working with a team.

731
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 2: I'm just going, wow, yeah, I get paid for.

732
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 3: This, But it's an adrenaline Russian. You've got the lights

733
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 3: and the sirens, and you're doing good stuff and you're

734
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 3: making people's lives better and you're saving the day, and

735
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 3: you don't know what you're going to do every day

736
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 3: you walk in the door. I loved being I did

737
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 3: not want to not be. And I was begging them

738
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 3: at the end. They had me their blood photocopy and

739
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 3: I'm going, please fix the problem and let me do

740
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 3: my job, and they're just going, it's easy to put

741
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 3: out the spotfires. And that broke my heart. You know.

742
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 3: They just go around and I was the problem and

743
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 3: I'm going, but sort Roger, and they just went, no,

744
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 3: it's easier. It's easier to break you and as a detective,

745
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 3: sit you down and humiliate you in headquarters at a

746
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 3: disk where people can come up nasty to photocopy for

747
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:52,359
Speaker 3: them if they need it.

748
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: What would you recommend if someone, a young person, whether

749
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,919
Speaker 1: its male or female, is listening to this podcast, would

750
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:01,479
Speaker 1: you recommend policing as a creed?

751
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:08,800
Speaker 3: Yes, okay, yeah, because it's very character building. It's chammy.

752
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 3: If you can survive it, I'd say, never let anyone

753
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 3: own you, never take a dollar, never just enjoy, be safe,

754
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 3: try and survive it, stay alive. Yeah. Well, it's a

755
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 3: wonderful family. The family are blue. But when you get ostracite,

756
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 3: when you get kicked out of the family, it's a

757
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 3: kick in the guts. It really is. It's bloody horrible.

758
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 1: And I've heard a person I respect say that the

759
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 1: only thing you can hang on to is your integrity.

760
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 1: And if you give your integrity away, you're gone.

761
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 2: You're gone, You're gone.

762
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 3: And I've seen people sell them their soul for a

763
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 3: bloody twenty dollars.

764
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 2: Yeah.

765
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's sad and they're cowards. The couch. You've

766
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 3: got to have a strong backbone. You know, it's about

767
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 3: to take the hits on all levels.

768
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 2: Your book, Watching the Watching the Detectives.

769
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's coming out on audio very soon. Statue for that.

770
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 3: Read that before I read it, the guys halfway through it,

771
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 3: the school guy's doing it.

772
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 2: I did.

773
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: When I say enjoy it. It brought a lot of

774
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:17,439
Speaker 1: memories back, and that may reflect on a lot of things.

775
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: But it's an interesting read and you don't pull any

776
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: pull any.

777
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 3: I write like I talk, which means it's very eusy,

778
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 3: it's very it's real. They wouldn't print a lot of

779
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 3: it because they were just going, that's un publishable. It's

780
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 3: not in the public's interest to know that those things

781
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 3: happened behind closed doors. And you know, so it was

782
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 3: very well legal, and some of the names were changed

783
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 3: to protect the guilty. But it's a good road. And

784
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 3: then there's Underbelly the Golden Mile, through which you know,

785
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 3: I sold the rights to it for that and and

786
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 3: like I said, it's coming out in audio. I've got

787
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 3: a website. If you look up Deborah a lot new Police,

788
00:38:58,040 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 3: you'll find me.

789
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,879
Speaker 2: And you do. You're doing a lot of a lot

790
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 2: of other stuff too.

791
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:05,800
Speaker 3: And I've always been active with the autism stuff.

792
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 2: You know.

793
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,879
Speaker 3: I started up an autism group in the Inner West

794
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 3: when Hayes was young, which went for about fifteen years.

795
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 3: And I have a carers group now that I run

796
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 3: once a month, and you know, support people that are caring.

797
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 3: And I always like to give back to the Commune.

798
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 3: And I'm working on a project at the moment in

799
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 3: relation to women's issues and stuff. So it's like this

800
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 3: talk's being looking at it from a women's stuff, from

801
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 3: a women's angle.

802
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 1: Look, you've gone through life making the difference, and it

803
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 1: hasn't isn't an easy ride.

804
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 2: But I love I love your.

805
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: Character that you can still sit here and laugh and

806
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: find some goodness in the world.

807
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 3: And the world's a better place that I don't drink. Like,

808
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 3: imagine if I'm like this sober, can you imagine me

809
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 3: on the grog like I was always. I was always

810
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 3: everywhere I went, I'd be in trouble, like wherever the

811
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 3: trouble was, and they'd get me in the But they go,

812
00:39:58,080 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 3: we've got ten people, They'll say, you were there that day.

813
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 3: I'm gone, Remember I was in blackout wherever there was trouble.

814
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 3: I'm going, there's a drink on.

815
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: Oh I don't get blackout. I just pass out. That's better,

816
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 1: just pass out instead of the blackout. Hey, I'm going

817
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 1: to finish. But I just want to say that thank

818
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 1: you for what you've you've done. And I say that

819
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: with all genuine sincerity that you made a difference in

820
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: the policing. And I think you've made policing for people

821
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 1: joining so much difference because you had the courage to

822
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 1: stand up. Your legacy is still carrying on to this day.

823
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 1: So you should be very proud of yourself.

824
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 3: And you kin't of fear. You can't fear. You just

825
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 3: got to live your day and have the best day.

826
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 2: And I think I think that's the way they'll approach it. There.

827
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 2: This is what this is what they did.

828
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, you've got issues. Yeah, And so occasionally I'll get

829
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 3: someone pull me up in an elevator or somewhere and

830
00:40:55,440 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 3: a starewell, and I'm not afraid. Don't be afraid. You

831
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 3: can't live your life and fear. You just And that's

832
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 3: why I travel, That's why the bracelet. I travel a lot,

833
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 3: and I have a good time and I party. I

834
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 3: go to a lot of see a lot of live bands,

835
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 3: and I love my music and I have fun with

836
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 3: my boy and have a great life and stuff.

837
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:18,760
Speaker 1: And that's.

838
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 3: Thanks and thank you Gary for all you do to

839
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 3: this is great.

840
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 2: Appreciates.

841
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 3: It's a bloody hard road. Laugh you've got a laugh.

842
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, good stuff.

843
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 3: H