1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: It's a very well been called outlaws, but once you're 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: in the club, you're not an outlaw. Really, you've got 3 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: to do with the president or the sergeant at arms 4 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: orders and disobeying could be fatal. These hungry, ambitious, anxious 5 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: youngsters do the dirty work and dangerous work for those 6 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: who use them to create fear, recavoc, shoot people, break bones, 7 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: and all the rest of it, ultimately to make money 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: for the bosses at the top, not for themselves. I'm 9 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: Andrew Rulers's Life and Crimes. I was recently discussing things 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 1: with my colleague Mark Butler, and he said, you know, 11 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: there's been a big murder trial in recent times involving 12 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: an outlaw motorcycle gang which can't be named. And he said, 13 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: there's been a remarkable amount of evidence led in that trial, 14 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: with testimony from insiders witnesses who have been members of 15 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: this notorious biker gang, who are in many ways typical 16 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: of the sort of guys who are in all the 17 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: biker gangs. You know, this may or may not be 18 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: a Hell's Angel or an outlaw or a rebel or 19 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: any of the big outlaw gangs, because essentially they're similar 20 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: in many ways, and we discussed all list, and he 21 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: showed me the notes he'd taken from that trial. And 22 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: I've sat down in the last couple of days and 23 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: written a reasonably long story based on filleting out the 24 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: most interesting bits of the evidence given by insiders in 25 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: a murder trial. And these are people who know what 26 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: they're talking about, and they've been cross examined. And I 27 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: think some of them, these witnesses who cannot be named 28 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: and will never be named, some of them have decided 29 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: that they be better off to tell a truth or 30 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: their version of the truth in court and be quit 31 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: of the whole thing, then to stay tied down to 32 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: the biky world, because they realized that at some point 33 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: it would consume them. It's a dog eat dog world. 34 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: In the pressure cooker of an outlaw motorcycle gang, the 35 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: patches and place names change, but the punchline stays the same. 36 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: Every dog has his day, but when the sun sets, 37 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: he's roadkill. That means, when the sun sets for him, 38 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: he's roadkill. In the ruthless hierarchy of the pack, the 39 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: big dog stands over the rest right up until they 40 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,119 Speaker 1: turn on him. In one notorious gang, the one we're 41 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: talking about the top Dog's authority was tested some time 42 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: ago when a rank and file member got a bit 43 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: dirty and he called the president exactly that, He called 44 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: him a dog. That tiny little three letter word can 45 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: be a death warrant, at best, a ticket to the 46 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: intensive careward. In this case, the gang men are concerned 47 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: was subjected to punishment that she might associate with something 48 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 1: like an IRA terror squad. I'll tell you what they did. 49 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: I think there were three of them. While two heavyweight 50 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: bikers grabbed the offending associate of theirs and held him 51 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,239 Speaker 1: down by his arms on the ground. A third one, 52 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: a man who weighs something like one hundred and twenty kilos, 53 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: a really big heavy guy, jumped all over his legs 54 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: with boots on and scrambled his legs to bits. He 55 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: kicked them to a pulp. He broke bones everywhere, and 56 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: in fact, there's a name for it. They called it 57 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: spaghetti legs. They turned his legs into sticks of spaghetti 58 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: after the spaghetti's been broken and cooked. That is the 59 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: sort of stuff they do. That was because he said 60 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: something like, oh, he's a dog about the president of 61 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: their club. Imagine what they do if it was a 62 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: more serious transgression. So these outlaw gangs run on these 63 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: savage displays of violence for two reasons, reasons that are 64 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: closely linked. First of all, the few at the top 65 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: of the food chain want everyone below them to be 66 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: compromised by committing the sort of serious crimes that an 67 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: undercover agent or informer or undercover police operator cannot commit. 68 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: So if I'm in the Hell's Angels, let's say, and 69 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: I take a gun and shoot somebody, or I do 70 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: some really bad stuff, highly illegal, the sort of thing 71 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: that's going to get you ten years in jail or more, 72 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 1: it means that I've shown that I'm willing to do it, 73 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 1: and it also compromises me. I'm incriminated forever. So they 74 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: really do want the people around them to do serious 75 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: violent crimes and also serious drug crimes, because it incriminates them. 76 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: And not only it's useful for the bosses to have 77 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: people doing what they want them to do at no 78 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 1: risk to the boss, it means that the people that 79 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: are doing the dirty work and spilling the blood and 80 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: running the drugs, those guys are in a position then 81 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: that they probably can't blow the whistle on the rest 82 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: because they themselves will end up in court and in jail. 83 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: The second part of this, and it interlocks with that 84 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: first one, is that those at the bottom of the 85 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: food chain are very keen to catch the selector's eye. 86 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 1: They're a bit like rookie footwalls who lay really hard 87 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: tackles and kick goals at training because they're desperate to 88 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: prove themselves worthy of full team status and of course 89 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 1: the rewards that would bring well the dubious rewards in 90 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: the case of the Biki Kings. So these hungry, ambitious, 91 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: anxious youngsters do the dirty work and dangerous work for 92 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 1: those who use them to create fear, recavoc, shoot people, 93 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: break bones, and all the rest of it, ultimately to 94 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: make money for the bosses at the top, not for themselves. 95 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: The result is an organization run rigidly on fear of 96 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: punishment and reprisals. That is, as long as each soldier 97 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: is willing to obey the hierarchy, even if it's against 98 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: his own future interests. After this recent marathon court case 99 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:36,799 Speaker 1: in which outlaw gang members provided a rare glimpse into 100 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: their gang culture, one long time observer who might have 101 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: been a reporter, said to me, it's tough at the bottom, 102 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: and I think that's a very wise line. It's a 103 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: wise crack, but it's true. Those low down in the 104 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,799 Speaker 1: gang ranks, or those hanging around the fringes, if they're smart, 105 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 1: might realize a bitter truth. They might realize that they're 106 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: expendable pawns in a ruthless racket that protects the powerful, 107 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: the manipulative, and the greedy. These once trusted members insiders 108 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: gave an extraordinary insight into the secrets of one of 109 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: the world's most feared outlaw gangs. They exposed a crime 110 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: machine that runs on intimidation, heavy drug trafficking, and deck collection, 111 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: its code of greed enforced with guns and acts of 112 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: savagery like the leg breaking we just described before. These 113 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: were totally frank accounts or appeared to be from men 114 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: who had finally turned on their so called comrades and 115 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: spoke candidly about how the gang operates and the rules 116 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: that applied to them. So much for bang outlaws, They 117 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: are governed by more rules in biker gangs than they 118 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: ever were out in the street. One witness told the 119 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: court that during his time in this particular club, well 120 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: known club, this one, he had bashed stabbed and shot 121 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: people for the club on orders for the club, not 122 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: for money. He even outlined how he'd agreed to carry 123 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: out a contract killing. Now he didn't actually do the killing, 124 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: but he agreed to do it, and he took steps. 125 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: This witness telling this story says he put a tracking 126 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: device on the proposed victim's car, and he was able 127 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: to work out where this guy was at any one 128 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: time so that he could follow him and ambush him 129 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: and kill him. But he or they ultimately abandoned the plan, 130 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: the hit plan, because the target rarely left the city 131 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: the CBD, where if the hit was done, it would 132 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: be hard to get away because of all the security 133 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: cameras that are set up in the city. So there's 134 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: an interesting point. If you want to stay clear of 135 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: someone who wants to kill you, you know a professional hit 136 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: man scenario, hang around in the casino where there are 137 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: many many cameras, and then get over in the CBD 138 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: where there are many more cameras, and do not go 139 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 1: floating around out in the outer suburbs where there are 140 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: no cameras, because that's when you might hit your troubles. 141 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 1: It was fortunate for the target that he'd hung around 142 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: the city at this point, because the man telling the 143 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:32,559 Speaker 1: story made it clear he was only too willing, as 144 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: they say in the trade, he was only too willing 145 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: to shoot somebody even before he joined the gang, the 146 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 1: Biki gang. In fact, he was cross examining court about 147 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: how he'd shot a man who owed him money for drugs. 148 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: But this is back in the days when he was 149 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: just running around being a bad guy and not even 150 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: a Biki And he said, oh, yeah, I did that. 151 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: This fellow owed me money for drugs, and I caught 152 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: up with him and he starts to run away, and 153 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,719 Speaker 1: I said stop running, and he didn't stop running. He 154 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: kept running. So I shot him twice. I shot him 155 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: in the buttocks and in the legs as a warning. 156 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: And that was just his idea of doing business. One 157 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 1: year he said he was paid to shoot two people, 158 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: but not to kill them. He wounded both of them 159 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: with a gun, exactly as requested. Another aspect of this 160 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: interesting trial, with all this evidence from these insiders, is 161 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: that it underlined how all these teenage car thefts that 162 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: Melbourne is full of currently tie into serious organized crime, 163 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: especially arson i e. Tobacco war and shootings. Also tobacco 164 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:50,439 Speaker 1: war most of it. Gang members said that stolen cars, 165 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: which they call hotties, are vital for anyone who wants 166 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: to torch buildings or shoot people. These cars are generally 167 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 1: supplied by others, notably through exploiting these mad teenagers who 168 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: are willing to do aggravated burglaries to get the keys 169 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: to steal cars in return for drugs or small amounts 170 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: of cash. So these kids, and we've discussed it in 171 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 1: this very studio with the mother of one of these kids, 172 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: out there pinching Oudis and Porsches and all sorts of 173 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: BMWs and merks, high end cars that go fast and 174 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: go around corners, and they do it almost for the 175 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: thrill of it. They get a little bit of money 176 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: or a little bit of drugs, and they hand the 177 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,839 Speaker 1: cars over to middlemen or criminal middlemen or bad guys 178 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: who then supply them to these bikis and serious, serious 179 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 1: crooks who are going to use them to do murders 180 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: or do arsons, which are potential murders. So those guys 181 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,439 Speaker 1: that burnt down the house at Trauga Nina the other 182 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: night and burn to death that young woman, she was 183 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: just a new bride, essentially totally innocent person. Those guys 184 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: were driving what police described as a vehicle similar to 185 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: a BMW X three, which is code for it probably 186 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: was a BMW X three. It will have been stolen 187 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: by some lunatic kid out there in the urb some 188 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: fifteen or sixteen year old probably and handed over to 189 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: some for three points of ice or something, or three 190 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: hundred bucks or whatever. And those guys have used that 191 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: car to go and burn down a double story house 192 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: which has got a totally innocent woman in it, and 193 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: she's burnt to death. I hope those kids are pleased 194 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: with themselves. To be honest, the gang mainly is stolen 195 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: carst to shoot people, to kill people. That's because stolen 196 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: cars are disposable, which makes committing crimes easier to plan. 197 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: Because the gunment or arsonists just torched the car. When 198 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,959 Speaker 1: they abandon it, it gets rid of the fingerprints, it 199 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: gets through of the evidence, gets rid of DNA, they 200 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: torture it. Funny little PostScript to that is this guy 201 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: pointed out that not every car is a stolen car 202 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: or a hottie. He said, in one case, we were 203 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: going to do a job, meaning an arsenal or a shooting, 204 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: and they were delivered a car to a particular venue 205 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: by the owner of the car, who said, I'm happy 206 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: for you to use it, providing your burnet straight afterwards 207 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: because I want to collect the insurance. So an owner 208 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: had delivered his own car to the gang because he 209 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: wanted to collect the insurance. And so on top of 210 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: all their other crime shootings, arson bashings, major drug dealing, 211 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: their insurance frauds. These witnesses told the court that the 212 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: gangs used a network of encrypted devices, generally known as 213 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 1: cipher phones. This is the short version of the word 214 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: used for a particular brand, CEIPHR. These are no longer 215 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 1: legally sold in Australia, but they're un doubtedly silly news, 216 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: I guess while as a demand for them, there will 217 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: always be a supply of them. Sometimes the members of 218 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: the gang would meet in person, not just over the phone. 219 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: These ones would meet at an outer suburban gym right 220 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: out east of Melbourne well out. They would meet at 221 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: say a strip club in Dandyknong or something like that. 222 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: They would meet at a nature reserve somewhere where they 223 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: could just pull up and walk around and have a chat, 224 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: or certain restaurants where they liked the food I guess 225 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: and imagine that are restaurants where they'd be hard to 226 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: be watched by police. You'd think their security was tight 227 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: the way they tell it, But so was the surveillance 228 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: that the police mounted on the gang and on its associates. 229 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: What the members imagined were confidential discussions occasionally reached the 230 00:14:55,480 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: police's ears. In one instance, there were two members of 231 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: the gang sitting in a BMW car belonging to one 232 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: of them, and they were discussing, in a private discussion, 233 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: just to chat between mates, the future of their gang president. 234 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: Now this is dangerous stuff. This is the guy. If 235 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: you call him a dog, you get your legs broken 236 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: the first time, and if you did it again, they'd 237 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: probably should you. So this is pretty tricky stuff. And 238 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: they're having a bit of a chat about the big fella, 239 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: and this is all being recorded on the police listening 240 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: device in the car, and they're tuning in and taping this. 241 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: The first witness says, how do you reckon it's going 242 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: to end? Do you reckon he'll retire or do you 243 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: think he puts in a word here that we won't 244 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: repeat are going to kick him out? Second witness says, 245 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: I don't see him retiring. First witness says, you reckon, 246 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: he's going to be like sixty years old and trying 247 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: to tell us what to do. Second witness, Nah, because 248 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,239 Speaker 1: if he retires, remember he's going blind. If he retires, 249 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: he loses all power. No one will be his friend. 250 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: And of excerpt. Now, when these guys were asked in 251 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: court about where that conversation was heading, the first witness 252 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: was very keen to play it down. He said, that's 253 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: just a hypothetical. He said, that's frustration. We're saying, what 254 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: do you think will happen in the future. He is 255 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: very keen to duct the inference that they were considering 256 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: getting rid of the boss, because that could be fatal. 257 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: The other thing they said was that junior members were 258 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: regarded as totally unproven, so the less they knew, the 259 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: less they might reveal if they were indiscreet or arrested 260 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: and started talking to police. Not even all patched members 261 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: were fully trusted. But one of these key witnesses, and 262 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: there were probably three or four of them in the case, 263 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: one of the key witnesses pointed out there was more 264 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: to being trusted than just the ability to keep quiet. 265 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: There was constant motivation to admit violence to curry favor 266 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: upstairs upstream with the bosses, and those most willing to 267 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 1: commit violence were trusted most. He said, the very willing 268 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: could rise through the ranks pretty swiftly, not that the 269 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: reward for rising through the ranks meant a lot more 270 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: than a constant supply of strippers and cocaine, was the 271 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: way he put it. The nominees or prospects that were 272 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: made into full members were usually given what they call 273 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,199 Speaker 1: a patch party, I think at the clubhouse. At the 274 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 1: gang clubhouse, the witness said, the gang president control debt collection, 275 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: often done for commission on behalf of others who were 276 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: owed money. So Joe Blogs might be in the building 277 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: game or whatever it is. He's owed a lot of 278 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: money by somebody and he can't get it. So he 279 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: goes along to these bikies and says, Joe, the guse's 280 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: may half a million. What will it cost to collect it? 281 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: And they say they might go halves. I don't know, 282 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: they might sixty forty. They take a very large chunk. 283 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:08,199 Speaker 1: But the recipient, the client, is keen to get some 284 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: money back, even if it's only half, or maybe a 285 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: bit more than half. Because it's a lot better than none. 286 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: And there's no doubt that Bikey's trade on the fear 287 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: that the patch inspires in the general public in order 288 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 1: to collect debts, because it's very easy money for those 289 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: who are doing it, and it's not overly dangerous. You 290 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: get cash from scared people and you take half it 291 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 1: in your hand. The rest of the other way easy. 292 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 1: The witnesses pointed out that members could not just go 293 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: and do whatever they liked. It's a very well been 294 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 1: called outlaws, but once you're in the club, you're not 295 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: an outlaw. Really, You've got to do with the president 296 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,719 Speaker 1: or the Sergeant at arms orders and disobeying could be fatal. 297 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: Now there's an example of this, a bloke called Kerry 298 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: chiacumas he was a hell Angel associate from Adelaide. He 299 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: comes across from Adelaide. I think he flew over. He 300 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: walked into the Gang's Nomad's Chapter clubhouse in Thomastown in 301 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 1: the early hours of June tenth, twenty twenty. Now this 302 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: is very early in the COVID times, so whether he 303 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: flew over or drove over, I'm not sure actually, but 304 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,719 Speaker 1: it was that first few months of COVID. The theory 305 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 1: is that his body was removed some time later after 306 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: an attack by a senior Hell's Angel with a long 307 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: history of violence. Now, the circumstances about this murder are 308 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 1: totally unclear because no one's talking but the dead man's 309 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: South Australian comrades, some of whom came across the Melbourne 310 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: with him, are known to be angry. So far, that's 311 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: not translated into anything to help police, and no charges 312 00:19:55,080 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: have been laid. Kerry Geacumus's killer is protected by soldiers 313 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: sort of low rent members, gang members whose lives he 314 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:13,239 Speaker 1: the killer, undoubtedly considers equally disposable. In other words, the 315 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: big boss that ordered the killing or did the killing 316 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: of this Fircomis guy is been protected by other individuals 317 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: in his club who he would be quite happy to 318 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 1: dispose of if it suited him. This is the unequal 319 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: in built inequality of the gang structure, that the guys 320 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: at the bottom take all the risks for the benefit 321 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: of a few guys at the top. It's the same 322 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: in all the one percent of gangs. The only real 323 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: loyalty is to the dirty money that flows to the top. 324 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: He is another thing these gang members. These witnesses in 325 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: this trial, they disagree with the legal and sociology theorists 326 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: who state that criminals ignore consequences. They say that, you know, 327 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: punishments don't mean anything to young criminals because they don't 328 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 1: care about consequences. But apparently, in the real, real world 329 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: of the motorcycle gangs, consequences matter a lot because they're 330 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: very big, they're very serious. It appears, in fact, that 331 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: these heavyweight crooks do not ignore them if the consequences 332 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: are frightening enough. When one of these spokes was asked 333 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 1: in court, who be directed to carry out violent crimes 334 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: on behalf of the president, he said, well, whoever he asks, 335 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: whoever is a sign to it, or whoever's around, I 336 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: guess ask why they did not carry out work without direction? 337 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 1: He replied with one word, consequences. So there we have it. 338 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: You don't do anything that you're not told to do, 339 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: or else you'll be on the receiving end of the 340 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: flogging or the shooting, or the burning, or possibly all three. 341 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: This trial also provided insights into how the justice system 342 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: can be gained or roughted. One witness testified that gang members, 343 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: like other criminals, stashed guns ahead of time to use 344 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: as a bargaining chip if they were later charged, the 345 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: idea being that they quote recover the guns for the 346 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: police to win a lighter sentence for helping the authorities 347 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: locate weapons. It's the perfect rout. You get arrested, you 348 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: go into the talk to the police. They say, you've 349 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: got anything for us, And a matter of fact, I 350 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: guess I could help you with something and play the 351 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: long game and hard to get and all that, and 352 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: ultimately lead the police to a stash of guns that 353 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: you've put there two years before, and by yourself a 354 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: bit of breathing space, say well, that's got to be 355 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: worth years off. That's going to be worth a letter 356 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: of comfort from the judge or whatever it might be. 357 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: The same witness that talked about salting the mind with 358 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: the guns said that the system could also be stooged 359 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: through lengthy overseas stays. And he said that he'd gone 360 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: on an overseas holiday at some time in the past 361 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: and he was about to come home when he got 362 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 1: news that an extortion charge was being leveled against him 363 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: back here in Australia, and so he thought, oh, I 364 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: don't think i'll fly home and he brought another ticket 365 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: to another destination overseas. He stayed over there. He obviously 366 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: had enough resources, had enough cash to stay overseas for 367 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: a fair while, and eventually the heat wore down. He 368 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: must have had lawyers and others back in Australia keeping 369 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: an eye on things, and eventually he thought it was 370 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: safe to return, and indeed it was. He flew back 371 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: to Australia and the extortion charge had been dropped. It 372 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 1: just never went anywhere, so he was able essentially to 373 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: wait it out, not so much stare it down as 374 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: waited out, which is intriguing. Although you do wonder if 375 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: someone somewhere might have been helping him there. It's hard 376 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: to say. The same blog had a few other tricks 377 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: to beat the system. He says that he was making 378 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: a bail application using a drug counselor's report, and the 379 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 1: idea was that his bail application depended on him appearing 380 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: to be a very serious drug user who needed help 381 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 1: with his drug abuse, and he needed to talk to 382 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: his drug counselor every day and all that good stuff, 383 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: and the drug counselor who's good at playing the game, 384 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: because this is what they do for a living told 385 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 1: him to say that he was using cocaine, cannabis, ecstasy, methemphetamine, 386 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 1: and pills. The reality was that this report was grossly 387 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 1: and deliberately exaggerated. This is what the witness said. The 388 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: drug counselor told me to say it because he said, 389 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: I can't use a drug counselor if I don't have 390 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: a bad drug habit. So I had to, you know, 391 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: make the story more colorful. This is what he stole 392 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: the court. Another witness told the court that his journey 393 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: into the gang began when he talked to the gang 394 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: boss about his prospects. The boss told him that joining 395 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 1: the club was not going to make him rich exactly, 396 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,719 Speaker 1: but it was more about being part of a brotherhood. 397 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: Oh yeah. This witness had become what they call a 398 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: nominee to be assessed by the gang while he decided 399 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: whether the outlaw life was really for him. As a nominee, 400 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 1: he stepped up at the request of the president of 401 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: the club. He stood in a suburban driveway and he 402 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,199 Speaker 1: shot up a vehicle with a high powered weapon to 403 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: scare someone who owed money. Now that's a crime that 404 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: could get you many years in jail. To stand in 405 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 1: the middle of a driveway in a busy suburb where 406 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: people are living and sleeping and eating and driving past, 407 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,199 Speaker 1: and to shoot up a car with essentially a military weapon. 408 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 1: If you caught doing that, you are going to go 409 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: away for a farewell. This guy played the card and 410 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: it worked. He was patched into the gang for that 411 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: one brazen criminal act. It was only later he thought 412 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: about how much jail time he risked just to collect 413 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: the debt for people who were taking no risk at all, 414 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 1: and he realized that he was being treated like a patsy, 415 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: like a pawn, like a dill, like a mugget. And 416 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: that's when he started to think about how it was 417 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:45,479 Speaker 1: even harder to get out of the gang than it 418 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: was to get into it. He decided he wanted out 419 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: when he realized he was a pawn in someone else's game. 420 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: He was a clown in someone else's circus, really, and 421 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: he could be sacrificed at any time, just as he'd 422 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: seen other people sacrificed. He could be the one with 423 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: his head on a chopping block. But he knew that 424 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: leaving the club could invite terrible repercussions. At the very least, 425 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: having his legs broken but possibly being shot. Because people 426 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: that leave the club go out with certain knowledge and 427 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 1: secrets and things, and the club doesn't encourage that sort 428 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: of thing. They'd rather have people inside the tent with 429 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: them than outside. But this guy noticed a loophole. He 430 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: noticed that occasionally there'd be members with obvious drug habits 431 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: drug problems, who were using drugs more and more, becoming 432 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: a ratic and unreliable, and he noticed that those guys 433 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: were just kicked out of the club because they were 434 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 1: sort of embarrassments. Although therese gangs want a deal in 435 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 1: drugs and run them up the highways and distribute them 436 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 1: to country towns and cities and all the rest of 437 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: it and ruin everybody else's life, they're not so keen 438 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: on their own members ruining their lives and screwing up 439 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,399 Speaker 1: the club business. And so when one of their members 440 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: does that, they quietly kick him out the back door. 441 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 1: They get rid of them. And this bloke thought there's 442 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 1: a loophole. So what he started to do was post 443 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:22,199 Speaker 1: stuff online on social media of himself with drugs, himself 444 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: with drug paraphernalia, and he made sure that he sounded 445 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: loose as a goose, out of it and all the 446 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,360 Speaker 1: rest of it. And that was his trick to unhook 447 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: himself from the club without actually it being a fatal engagement. 448 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: And he lived to tell the tale, but others might 449 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: not have because ladies and gentlemen in the outlaw biky world, 450 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: it's tough at the bottom. Thanks for listening. 451 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 2: Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun production for 452 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 2: True crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns, 453 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 2: features and more, go to Haroldson dot com dot au, 454 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 2: forward slash Andrew rule one word. For advertising inquiries, go 455 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 2: to news podcasts sold at news dot com dot au. 456 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 2: That is all one word news podcasts sold. And if 457 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 2: you want further information about this episode, links are in 458 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 2: the description.