Speaker 1: Welcome to How Do They Afford That? The podcast that
Speaker 1: peaks into the financial lives of everyday Australian. So I'm
Speaker 1: Miuchaele Thompson. I'm an author and the co host of
Speaker 1: the podcast Fear and Greed business news. As always, I'm
Speaker 1: with Canna Campbell, financial planner and founder of Sugar Mama TV,
Speaker 1: financial literacy platform that is on YouTube and TikTok and
Speaker 1: Instagram and pretty much everywhere. Hello Canna, good morning. Now
Speaker 1: today is a serious topic. We are talking today about
Speaker 1: financial red flags in relationships and these can range hugely right.
Speaker 1: They can go from relatively minor things like a mismatch
Speaker 1: I suppose in your attitudes towards spending and saving, right
Speaker 1: through to the really serious red flags, the risk factors
Speaker 1: for financial abuse and coercive control. So let's work our
Speaker 1: way through them. Shall we work through the financial red
Speaker 1: flags in relationships? And we'll start at the lighter end, Okay,
Speaker 1: I think if that's all right?
Speaker 2: Yes, take it gently.
Speaker 1: What is the smallest financial red flag that would make
Speaker 1: you stop and think? Is it someone like not splitting
Speaker 1: a bill even lea.
Speaker 2: Yes, I'd say that it's annoying things that can really
Speaker 2: irritate you and over time eat away. But so as
Speaker 2: you said, like someone who refusing to split a bill,
Speaker 2: but also with no reason, like no explanation.
Speaker 1: It's different if someone if you know that they're having
Speaker 1: financial trouble or something like fine, yep, no problems.
Speaker 2: That's fair enough. Or people who borrow money really early
Speaker 2: in the relationship. Or someone who jokes to the point
Speaker 2: where they almost feel proud about how they're so bad
Speaker 2: with money and never actually does anything about it.
Speaker 1: That's an interesting one.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of people who like to make a
Speaker 2: bit of a joke of themselves, like they almost but
Speaker 2: they're almost proud, but obviously behind the pride is shame.
Speaker 2: But you know they're the people that laugh, I'm you know,
Speaker 2: great at spending money there to their own detriment.
Speaker 1: That's an interesting one that that is actually a red
Speaker 1: flag for you.
Speaker 2: It's not it's a concern. It's something that needs to
Speaker 2: be at the right and appropriate and sensitive time, needs
Speaker 2: to be addressed because you don't want to live your
Speaker 2: life like that.
Speaker 1: So you're saying it's an opportunity for.
Speaker 2: Education definitely, and empowerment too.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, go on, go on.
Speaker 2: And then I'd say someone who is constantly in debt
Speaker 2: that things like that's really normal. And I'm not talking
Speaker 2: about home loans. I'm talking about someone who's drowning in
Speaker 2: multiple credit card debts and by now pay later. You know,
Speaker 2: they think that that's normal and it's not actually an option.
Speaker 2: They don't know anything better and they don't want to
Speaker 2: know anything better.
Speaker 1: Okay, So these are really kind of money mindset issues.
Speaker 2: Very much about the person's attitude yea, and how they
Speaker 2: feel that that's acceptable. And there's complete like lacking of
Speaker 2: any sort of accountability or responsibility.
Speaker 1: In that case. Then if this is about kind of
Speaker 1: attitudes to money at this point in time, is it
Speaker 1: a red flag? If someone has no interest in budgeting,
Speaker 1: no interest in long term financial goals, is it that
Speaker 1: would be more than annoying for you? That would be like, okay,
Speaker 1: this is financial incompatibility.
Speaker 2: It would be a worry. Okay. So to me, that
Speaker 2: would indicate a lack of direction, motivation, and a desire
Speaker 2: for a better life around money and financial management, especially
Speaker 2: if you're someone who actually does really crave you know,
Speaker 2: security and savings and investing. And whilst it may not
Speaker 2: necessarily be toxic, as such, there is a compatibility issue
Speaker 2: here that needs to be dealt with. And this is
Speaker 2: why I think timing is everything, because sometimes people aren't
Speaker 2: yet at that point. You know, they're not where you're
Speaker 2: up to in your financial journey or your level of
Speaker 2: education around money. So that's why you you do need
Speaker 2: to work together and communication is key. But you know,
Speaker 2: these are the times where the discussion of those financial
Speaker 2: goals like buying home together, or starting a family, or
Speaker 2: even thinking about retirement can start to be a concern.
Speaker 1: Okay, what about then if you are in the early
Speaker 1: stages of a relationship and you establish that okay, one
Speaker 1: person in the duo is a spender and the other
Speaker 1: person is a saver. Now, one of our earliest episodes
Speaker 1: that we did on this podcast was about that. Can
Speaker 1: it work with communication or is it just going to
Speaker 1: build tension into a relationship that might never actually be
Speaker 1: fully resolved.
Speaker 2: You know what, I think we're missing some important people
Speaker 2: in this category. It's not just save as versus spenders.
Speaker 2: It could be saviors versus spenders versus investors. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: other two people who like every single spare scent they get,
Speaker 2: they go and invest it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, people like that.
Speaker 2: Plenty of people like that.
Speaker 1: Really yeah, And as a result, they don't spend anything because.
Speaker 2: Well, the part never gets a chance to actually enjoy
Speaker 2: the money and spend it on a holiday or something
Speaker 2: because they've already gone and invested it.
Speaker 1: And so they're so focused on some day in the
Speaker 1: future when there is this kind of financial freedom potentially
Speaker 1: somewhere in the future, that they're not actually going to
Speaker 1: enjoy the process to get.
Speaker 2: To it exactly. And this is why you know, communication
Speaker 2: and having boundaries and saying okay, all right, for every
Speaker 2: for example, every thousand dollars, you know, we invest, we're
Speaker 2: going to put a side five hundred, for example, for
Speaker 2: a holiday. So having that respectful communication is essential, and
Speaker 2: sharing financial goals so that you are rolling in the
Speaker 2: same direction, and you know, you have some form of
Speaker 2: autonomy where you know, as I have shared on previous episodes,
Speaker 2: you know, Tom and I h get our same amount
Speaker 2: of sanity money where he can go in the driving
Speaker 2: range and blow his you know, call it allowance for
Speaker 2: the month, and I can go and blow my allowance
Speaker 2: for the month on for example, in a new pair
Speaker 2: of shoots. It's you have that independence as well. But
Speaker 2: you can also you are united on the big picture stuff.
Speaker 1: Okay, at what point, though, in a relationship should you
Speaker 1: be having those money conversations? Because you've talked a few
Speaker 1: times now, you've referenced the importance of this communication, this
Speaker 1: clear communication about money. How early in a relationship should
Speaker 1: you be having these money conversations? And does that risk
Speaker 1: making things feel perhaps a bit uncomfortable, uncomfortable and transactional? Right, Like,
Speaker 1: if you're on your second date and you're already talking
Speaker 1: about kind of okay, what's your long term financial goals?
Speaker 1: Is that going to be a red flag in itself
Speaker 1: that you've kind of busted out all the big kind
Speaker 1: of money questions and all I want to know is
Speaker 1: kind of what movies have you seen lately?
Speaker 2: Look. I remember, before even going on a date with someone,
Speaker 2: this is before I met Tom. I got asked online
Speaker 2: these questions really and I and he said, like, I
Speaker 2: really hope I'm not offending you, but these are really
Speaker 2: important to me, and like I need to know just
Speaker 2: to be clear and upfront. And I had no problem
Speaker 2: answering that. I actually really respect that he for him,
Speaker 2: these are his non negotiables And this was something he
Speaker 2: really valued. So obviously I wouldn't personally recommend that, and
Speaker 2: I wouldn't personally do that myself. You've got to let
Speaker 2: nature take its course and get to know each other.
Speaker 1: And you know, they probably found the right person though
Speaker 1: with you. In terms of if you're going to ask
Speaker 1: anyone about long term financial goals, talking to Kinder Campbell
Speaker 1: is probably the well the comment.
Speaker 2: The relationship never stopped right then, and then we didn't
Speaker 2: actually make it to the date up because I actually
Speaker 2: but because I met Tom. But you know, and that's
Speaker 2: another classic example. When I met Tom, he had this
Speaker 2: really like relaxed attitude to mortgage. He had been told
Speaker 2: that you never paid for a mortgage, No one ever
Speaker 2: does it. It's not possible. And you know, he was
Speaker 2: spending a lot of money. And when I actually showed
Speaker 2: and I was like, who the hell told you that?
Speaker 2: That's ridiculous. Of course you can pay for home. And
Speaker 2: I just showed a few few simple things like extra
Speaker 2: mortgage repayments, increasing it out, rounding it up. The look
Speaker 2: on his face he was like, oh my goodness, and
Speaker 2: it instantly changed his attitude towards being living a mortgage
Speaker 2: free life. And I'd say at times, he's probably more
Speaker 2: more motivated than I am to pay off our home loan.
Speaker 2: So you know, it's you've got to really use your
Speaker 2: intuition and that emotional IQ to go. All right, I
Speaker 2: feel like we're getting into this stage where we can
Speaker 2: have this conversation, but let's do it in a really
Speaker 2: safe way. You don't need to tackle your whole entire finances,
Speaker 2: but it can start with something really simple like how
Speaker 2: do you budget your money? Or you know, I'm thinking
Speaker 2: we're thinking of going on holiday, Like how would you
Speaker 2: see us forwarding this so that we can both have
Speaker 2: a great time, Like come from a positive place and
Speaker 2: you know, be vulnerable, lean into that. And you know,
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, if this is not
Speaker 2: right coming from someone who's been dworsd twice, don't like
Speaker 2: you listen to your guard. If you're like, you know what,
Speaker 2: this is not right, don't throw the baby out with
Speaker 2: the bath water. But you need to sort of think, Okay,
Speaker 2: do I continue on seeing where this will go in
Speaker 2: the conversation we have and see if we can come
Speaker 2: on to the same page, or is this actually not
Speaker 2: the right relationship for me at this point of my life?
Speaker 2: And what's important to me.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's good advice. We're starting to get a bit
Speaker 1: more serious now with a few of these red flags.
Speaker 1: What are the warning signs when someone just isn't transparent
Speaker 1: right about their money. Perhaps they're vague about income that
Speaker 1: one I can kind of understand, vague about debt, would
Speaker 1: bending habits. Yeah, when they're just being vague about it
Speaker 1: all and not transparent at all about their attitudes to
Speaker 1: money as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, these are definitely warning signs. And like a
Speaker 2: classic one that is the most I think the most
Speaker 2: frightening one is gambling because you can't it's not like
Speaker 2: alcohol drugs. You can smell it, you can see it
Speaker 2: in someone's behavior. Gambling can go on for a long
Speaker 2: time without people having any idea. It's very it's an
Speaker 2: easy addiction to hide. It's not until it gets to
Speaker 2: crisis point that it's you know, it becomes apparent and obvious.
Speaker 2: But you know, I'd say the warning signs like hiding
Speaker 2: shame insecurity and controlling shoes as well. And as I said,
Speaker 2: full transparency doesn't have to happen open night overnight, but
Speaker 2: the openness has to definitely build up consistently over time.
Speaker 1: What about hiding purchases? Is that ever okay in a
Speaker 1: relationship or is it a sign of deeper money issues.
Speaker 2: I'm a big no no on this, okay, And I
Speaker 2: know and it's a bit of a polarizing opinion, but
Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot of jokes going on and
Speaker 2: like being on social media where you know, women hiding
Speaker 2: their purchases in the boot of the car or you know,
Speaker 2: in funny places. I don't think that's cool at all.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's funny, like you should be able
Speaker 2: to go, look, darling, look I bought for myself. Isn't
Speaker 2: this dress beautiful? Like your partnership, look back and go Okay,
Speaker 2: I know that they've bought that within the boundaries of
Speaker 2: our budget, and I'm happy to see them spending money
Speaker 2: in a responsible way, in a balanced way, and it's
Speaker 2: not going to jeopardize our financial well being in there
Speaker 2: is equality and respect to the flow of money, and
Speaker 2: that's that's where I stand.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of horrifying to think about. I can't
Speaker 1: know that that's all done very in a light way online,
Speaker 1: those jokes about it all, But I mean, in many cases,
Speaker 1: there would be situations where people feel and the necessity
Speaker 1: to hide their purchases because they're worried about how the
Speaker 1: other person's going to react things that it's like, Oh,
Speaker 1: it is a slippery slope.
Speaker 2: It feels like it isn't at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: No one feels good hiding stuff from other people. It
Speaker 2: doesn't sit nicely inside one's body.
Speaker 1: No, Okay, we're going to take a very quick break.
Speaker 1: We're going to come back then. We've got a series
Speaker 1: of these are really quite serious red flags and serious issues,
Speaker 1: but I do want to go through them. Will take
Speaker 1: a break, be back in a moment. Can we are
Speaker 1: talking about financial red flags in relationships? What to watch
Speaker 1: out for, what's relatively minor and what is more serious.
Speaker 1: We're definitely at the more serious end of the scale. Now,
Speaker 1: what about if one partner makes all the money to
Speaker 1: decisions and just expects the other person to go along
Speaker 1: with it. That is, that's got to be a red.
Speaker 2: Flag, Absolutely, a massive red flag. So particularly if there's
Speaker 2: no discussion or no consent. No, and even if one
Speaker 2: person might be making the majority of the family income
Speaker 2: and they're handling all the ad men. You know, both
Speaker 2: partners at the end of the day should have equal
Speaker 2: say in those big decisions. And you know, those decisions
Speaker 2: have consequences, they have risks, They may come with sacrifices
Speaker 2: as well. For example, we're going to invest in this,
Speaker 2: so therefore we can't spend money on that. It's this
Speaker 2: is where some big problems a lie. And this is
Speaker 2: why that awareness of financial abuse is so important. And
Speaker 2: often with this sense of financial control and restriction, there's
Speaker 2: often a gateway to other forms of manipulation and relationships.
Speaker 2: Doesn't just stop there.
Speaker 1: Well, okay, financial manipulation, let's talk about that. What are
Speaker 1: some signs that one person might be financially manipulating the
Speaker 1: other even in kind of subtle ways. Is it making
Speaker 1: sure that all the builds are in their name and
Speaker 1: not letting the other person see anything that's coming in
Speaker 1: kind of or or is that more extreme?
Speaker 2: Well, now I'd say it's almost more psychological.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like guilt.
Speaker 2: Tripping someone into not spending money. Oh, you don't really
Speaker 2: need that, you've got you know, you've got a nice
Speaker 2: dress already at home, you can just wear that. Again,
Speaker 2: like making them feel bad for actually spending money and
Speaker 2: drawing money, you know, monitoring or criticizing every single transaction
Speaker 2: like why did you spend that? Why did you buy
Speaker 2: that brand and not that brand? You know, getting angry
Speaker 2: at them and you know, psychologically punishing them through stone
Speaker 2: walling and then delaying or avoiding joint decisions. And I've
Speaker 2: seen this, I've seen this closely in a certain situation,
Speaker 2: and it was quite sickening to watch where they're almost
Speaker 2: like dangled carrot and said, oh, yes, we will do
Speaker 2: the joint account, we will make it. You know, we'll explain,
Speaker 2: but never actually happened, and that person hang hung hope
Speaker 2: on that moment that day would one day come, and
Speaker 2: it never did, and in the meantime, they were, you know,
Speaker 2: ripping them off.
Speaker 1: That's frightening.
Speaker 2: So it's heartbreaking.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really scary debt. Okay, And I'm sorry, I
Speaker 1: realized this feels like I'm just going through a shopping
Speaker 1: list of red flags now, But I mean it makes
Speaker 1: you realize how broad the spectrum of financial red flags,
Speaker 1: and from the lighter kind of oh yeah, we're probably
Speaker 1: not compatible right through to these things that are well,
Speaker 1: it's actually criminal when we get down to the coercive
Speaker 1: control and some of that abuse.
Speaker 2: And this list is really I think for awareness because
Speaker 2: so often it's socially when you know the rose tinted
Speaker 2: glasses on, you don't realize what's going on until you
Speaker 2: know it ends, or you get that perspective, and sometimes
Speaker 2: it's you know, quite there's a lot more on the line,
Speaker 2: children emotions, it's mortgages, things like that.
Speaker 1: Now, debt has come up a couple of times so
Speaker 1: far in this conversation. If someone comes into a relationship
Speaker 1: with a lot of debt, right, at what point does
Speaker 1: that cross from just being the reality of this is
Speaker 1: kind of the way they are, and it's some baggage
Speaker 1: that they are carrying, perhaps a big personal loan or
Speaker 1: something that they still haven't paid off. At what point
Speaker 1: does that become a red flag? Is it when they
Speaker 1: have no intention of paying it off, or they want
Speaker 1: to share that debt with the other person, or the
Speaker 1: debt is kind of part of their money mentality.
Speaker 2: Or even their money block. So it's more about how
Speaker 2: they actually managed the debt, you know, are they hiding it?
Speaker 2: Are they only making the minimum repayments when they could
Speaker 2: actually be paying that debt off. The lack of accountability
Speaker 2: to just pointing their finger at others blaming others. You know,
Speaker 2: you know my ex partner ruined my credit score and
Speaker 2: got me into this loan and tricked me. And you
Speaker 2: know my family member did this or that to me,
Speaker 2: like just passing the buck or you know, expecting you
Speaker 2: to be fine with it and just either maybe fix
Speaker 2: it up for them or actually just like them ignore
Speaker 2: the actual problem at hand and the long term consequences
Speaker 2: of debt. And you know, debt, as you said, is unavoidable. Unavoidable,
Speaker 2: it's a natural part of life. But you seeing someone
Speaker 2: be open and honest and transparent and take responsibility for
Speaker 2: the situation they're in and us as an opportunity to
Speaker 2: learn and change history so that they never repeat history
Speaker 2: is really important and really admirable. And I think that's
Speaker 2: the sign that you want to look for to know, Okay,
Speaker 2: what this potential partner of mine has debt, but we'll
Speaker 2: work together and getting out of this. And you know,
Speaker 2: whether they paid off themselves or you get a game
Speaker 2: plan in place, but you can come back from this
Speaker 2: quite easily if you do it in the right way
Speaker 2: and manage it mindfully.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and communication, once again is key everything. It's just
Speaker 1: it feels like every one of these things. It does
Speaker 1: come back to communication and trust. Yeah, okay on that right.
Speaker 1: So say you and your partner have it pretty well
Speaker 1: set up together, that's not the problem here. What about
Speaker 1: if your partner is financially supporting a friend or a
Speaker 1: family member and that is starting to affect your own goals.
Speaker 1: And I know that sounds like it's kind of oh,
Speaker 1: that would never happen.
Speaker 2: It does happens a lot. It happens a lot. I
Speaker 2: actually did a recent podcast on Sugar Mama's Fireplay about,
Speaker 2: you know, supporting a mother who was financially vulnerable. And
Speaker 2: it's also a part of certain cultures where you take
Speaker 2: care of your elderly parents. That is what is done
Speaker 2: and that is what is expected. So it's not actually
Speaker 2: necessarily toxic, but it can become a problem if it's
Speaker 2: not addressed quickly with boundaries put in place. And you
Speaker 2: know when I see it being a red flag is
Speaker 2: when it's interfering with your goals. For example, you no
Speaker 2: longer can go and buy a home because you've got
Speaker 2: to bail out family members' debts, or you are changing
Speaker 2: the plan without actually discussing what you previously agreed on,
Speaker 2: or you start putting pressure on all the person's being
Speaker 2: pressure on you or creating resentment in your relationship, that's
Speaker 2: when it's an issue, and that's when you need to
Speaker 2: almost go and see a financial counselor. And you know,
Speaker 2: just because you're a partner, you're also not necessarily a
Speaker 2: financial safety net for everybody else in your life.
Speaker 1: Okay, we're nearly out of time, but the big one
Speaker 1: is probably still to come here. It is about financial
Speaker 1: control and coercive control within a relationship. What are the
Speaker 1: signs that this is happening. We've touched on a few
Speaker 1: of them. But how does it differ from just having
Speaker 1: different approaches to money and different kind of attitudes to money?
Speaker 1: At what point is it crossing over into something that
Speaker 1: is coercive control? Coercive control and is so so dangerous.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, you know, forcing you to hand over income,
Speaker 2: to have to justify every single expense, no matter how
Speaker 2: big or how small, you know, having to ask permission
Speaker 2: if you can spend it something, especially on just the
Speaker 2: normal basic essentials of life, you know, denying access to
Speaker 2: accounts and cards, you know, and sabotaging your ability to
Speaker 2: actually work or earn a living or even start up
Speaker 2: a side hustle and then making really hurtful financial threats
Speaker 2: like you know you'd have nothing without me. You know
Speaker 2: that isn't just financial abuse, that's a form of course
Speaker 2: of controllers for us. I'm concerned.
Speaker 1: So what do you do if if someone is hearing
Speaker 1: you say this and go, I've heard that coming out
Speaker 1: of the mouth of my partner, Like, where do you
Speaker 1: go from there? How do you start to protect yourself
Speaker 1: if you if you might kind of recognize this and
Speaker 1: start to feel like you are being controlled or coerced.
Speaker 2: The first place I would start is open up a
Speaker 2: separate bank account, but obviously only in your name, and
Speaker 2: start building up you know, some personal funds as much
Speaker 2: as you can, and talk to someone close that can
Speaker 2: help keep you safe and is aware of what's going on.
Speaker 1: So this is a friend or a family member, a
Speaker 1: trusted friend, trusted family member. And professional assistance, Absolutely professional assistance.
Speaker 2: But coming back to the practical side, obviously the bank
Speaker 2: account and making sure that you know you have your
Speaker 2: login details, you don't share it with anyone else, don't
Speaker 2: write it down, you know it's completely protected, and then
Speaker 2: go and have regular check ins just because you don't
Speaker 2: have to throw the baby out with the bathballer necessarily.
Speaker 2: But you know, I feel like a lot of people
Speaker 2: actually act in a financially abusive way without even realizing it.
Speaker 2: It's not until you sit down with a marriage counselor
Speaker 2: or a financial counselor that they actually say, you know what,
Speaker 2: that's not acceptable. You can't say that that's inappropriate, that's sensitive,
Speaker 2: that's hurtful, and they can start to have really healthy,
Speaker 2: constructive conversations around what they want. I do believe couples
Speaker 2: can heal from here and get back on track. But
Speaker 2: it's this lack of awareness, but also it's a lack
Speaker 2: of actually understanding how to do it in the right way,
Speaker 2: in a right way where you you know, dream works,
Speaker 2: the teamwork, where you support each other, you know you've
Speaker 2: got your eye focus on the prize. When one part
Speaker 2: is having a bad day, the other person lifts them
Speaker 2: up and you help each other keep going. And when
Speaker 2: it does come to those times where you can splurge
Speaker 2: or have a treat or reward or celebrate those little
Speaker 2: successes along the way, it makes you closer, it makes
Speaker 2: you stronger, and a counselor can really work amazing magic
Speaker 2: and helping people get on the same page and actually
Speaker 2: be incredibly powerful together. But you know, I really feel
Speaker 2: a lot of people just don't actually realize what they're
Speaker 2: doing and saying. And it doesn't excuse it at all.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no. And I keep thinking back to
Speaker 1: what you said about communication, the fact that communication within
Speaker 1: a relationship is so important when it comes to money,
Speaker 1: and that a financial counselor can actually help you establish
Speaker 1: almost the ground rules and the framework for good communication
Speaker 1: around money. But then there are some circumstances where communication
Speaker 1: is just not going to help, and it becomes a
Speaker 1: matter of personal safety. And that is when we're in control.
Speaker 2: And that's far more serious, and that's when you do
Speaker 2: need to get professional help, a lawyer report it. That's
Speaker 2: a whole other level. And you know, money and love
Speaker 2: aren't separate and they shape your future together. So you
Speaker 2: want to get it right and in but never underestimate
Speaker 2: your own intuition.
Speaker 1: Okay, big episode, serious one heavy, Yeah it really was,
Speaker 1: wasn't it.
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 1: Next episode will lighten things up a bit, all right,
Speaker 1: A lofty promise? Right, Okay, where do we find you?
Speaker 1: If we want more information?
Speaker 2: Please? For anyone that has ever worried about financial abuse
Speaker 2: or coercion, and of course you know to violence. Please
Speaker 2: reach out to me directly at Sugar Mama TV and
Speaker 2: I'll help you as best I can.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's actually really good of you to offer that assistance.
Speaker 2: I've seen it so many times, and I've seen it
Speaker 2: in very close intimate situations at various times of my life.
Speaker 2: So I'm something so I'm really passionate about.
Speaker 1: All right, And look, you can hear me every day
Speaker 1: with Sean Aylmer on Fearing great business news you can use.
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