WEBVTT - Financial red flags in relationships 0:00:01.639 --> 0:00:04.120 Welcome to How Do They Afford That? The podcast that 0:00:04.120 --> 0:00:06.880 peaks into the financial lives of everyday Australian. So I'm 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:09.160 Miuchaele Thompson. I'm an author and the co host of 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:12.280 the podcast Fear and Greed business news. As always, I'm 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:15.239 with Canna Campbell, financial planner and founder of Sugar Mama TV, 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:19.479 financial literacy platform that is on YouTube and TikTok and 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:23.560 Instagram and pretty much everywhere. Hello Canna, good morning. Now 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:27.200 today is a serious topic. We are talking today about 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:34.440 financial red flags in relationships and these can range hugely right. 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:38.520 They can go from relatively minor things like a mismatch 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:42.040 I suppose in your attitudes towards spending and saving, right 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:46.720 through to the really serious red flags, the risk factors 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:51.400 for financial abuse and coercive control. So let's work our 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:54.320 way through them. Shall we work through the financial red 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:58.200 flags in relationships? And we'll start at the lighter end, Okay, 0:00:58.280 --> 0:00:59.360 I think if that's all right? 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:00.640 Yes, take it gently. 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:06.360 What is the smallest financial red flag that would make 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:10.800 you stop and think? Is it someone like not splitting 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:12.000 a bill even lea. 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:15.119 Yes, I'd say that it's annoying things that can really 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:19.119 irritate you and over time eat away. But so as 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:21.440 you said, like someone who refusing to split a bill, 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.360 but also with no reason, like no explanation. 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:27.920 It's different if someone if you know that they're having 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:31.199 financial trouble or something like fine, yep, no problems. 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:35.440 That's fair enough. Or people who borrow money really early 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:40.600 in the relationship. Or someone who jokes to the point 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:43.520 where they almost feel proud about how they're so bad 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:46.440 with money and never actually does anything about it. 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:48.520 That's an interesting one. 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:50.280 There's a lot of people who like to make a 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:52.440 bit of a joke of themselves, like they almost but 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:56.600 they're almost proud, but obviously behind the pride is shame. 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:59.960 But you know they're the people that laugh, I'm you know, 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:02.600 great at spending money there to their own detriment. 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:05.640 That's an interesting one that that is actually a red 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:06.360 flag for you. 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:09.240 It's not it's a concern. It's something that needs to 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:13.240 be at the right and appropriate and sensitive time, needs 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:15.400 to be addressed because you don't want to live your 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:15.880 life like that. 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:17.359 So you're saying it's an opportunity for. 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:21.679 Education definitely, and empowerment too. 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:24.079 Okay, all right, go on, go on. 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:28.240 And then I'd say someone who is constantly in debt 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:31.079 that things like that's really normal. And I'm not talking 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:35.320 about home loans. I'm talking about someone who's drowning in 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:39.080 multiple credit card debts and by now pay later. You know, 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:42.359 they think that that's normal and it's not actually an option. 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:44.520 They don't know anything better and they don't want to 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:45.200 know anything better. 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:49.160 Okay, So these are really kind of money mindset issues. 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:52.919 Very much about the person's attitude yea, and how they 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:56.560 feel that that's acceptable. And there's complete like lacking of 0:02:56.600 --> 0:03:00.440 any sort of accountability or responsibility. 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:01.959 In that case. Then if this is about kind of 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:05.760 attitudes to money at this point in time, is it 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:09.239 a red flag? If someone has no interest in budgeting, 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:14.720 no interest in long term financial goals, is it that 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:17.960 would be more than annoying for you? That would be like, okay, 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:20.320 this is financial incompatibility. 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:24.480 It would be a worry. Okay. So to me, that 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:30.560 would indicate a lack of direction, motivation, and a desire 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:36.080 for a better life around money and financial management, especially 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:38.400 if you're someone who actually does really crave you know, 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:42.600 security and savings and investing. And whilst it may not 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:47.360 necessarily be toxic, as such, there is a compatibility issue 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:49.480 here that needs to be dealt with. And this is 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:52.280 why I think timing is everything, because sometimes people aren't 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:55.360 yet at that point. You know, they're not where you're 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:57.800 up to in your financial journey or your level of 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:00.560 education around money. So that's why you you do need 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:03.440 to work together and communication is key. But you know, 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:06.440 these are the times where the discussion of those financial 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:09.360 goals like buying home together, or starting a family, or 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:13.360 even thinking about retirement can start to be a concern. 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:16.200 Okay, what about then if you are in the early 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:19.880 stages of a relationship and you establish that okay, one 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:23.320 person in the duo is a spender and the other 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:26.240 person is a saver. Now, one of our earliest episodes 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:29.080 that we did on this podcast was about that. Can 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:32.200 it work with communication or is it just going to 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:36.400 build tension into a relationship that might never actually be 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:37.279 fully resolved. 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:40.239 You know what, I think we're missing some important people 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:43.680 in this category. It's not just save as versus spenders. 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:48.440 It could be saviors versus spenders versus investors. Oh yeah, 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:51.119 other two people who like every single spare scent they get, 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:52.599 they go and invest it. 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:54.080 Yeah, I know, people like that. 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:55.240 Plenty of people like that. 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:59.240 Really yeah, And as a result, they don't spend anything because. 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:01.599 Well, the part never gets a chance to actually enjoy 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:03.680 the money and spend it on a holiday or something 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:05.120 because they've already gone and invested it. 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:08.440 And so they're so focused on some day in the 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:12.799 future when there is this kind of financial freedom potentially 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:14.640 somewhere in the future, that they're not actually going to 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:15.920 enjoy the process to get. 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:18.280 To it exactly. And this is why you know, communication 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:22.320 and having boundaries and saying okay, all right, for every 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:26.440 for example, every thousand dollars, you know, we invest, we're 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:28.280 going to put a side five hundred, for example, for 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:32.719 a holiday. So having that respectful communication is essential, and 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:35.640 sharing financial goals so that you are rolling in the 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:38.480 same direction, and you know, you have some form of 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:41.839 autonomy where you know, as I have shared on previous episodes, 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:43.679 you know, Tom and I h get our same amount 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:47.080 of sanity money where he can go in the driving 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:49.880 range and blow his you know, call it allowance for 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.440 the month, and I can go and blow my allowance 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:54.320 for the month on for example, in a new pair 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.800 of shoots. It's you have that independence as well. But 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:02.000 you can also you are united on the big picture stuff. 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:06.600 Okay, at what point, though, in a relationship should you 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:09.039 be having those money conversations? Because you've talked a few 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:11.880 times now, you've referenced the importance of this communication, this 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:15.960 clear communication about money. How early in a relationship should 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:18.760 you be having these money conversations? And does that risk 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:24.240 making things feel perhaps a bit uncomfortable, uncomfortable and transactional? Right, Like, 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:26.200 if you're on your second date and you're already talking 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:28.680 about kind of okay, what's your long term financial goals? 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:31.480 Is that going to be a red flag in itself 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:33.560 that you've kind of busted out all the big kind 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:36.200 of money questions and all I want to know is 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:38.320 kind of what movies have you seen lately? 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:43.279 Look. I remember, before even going on a date with someone, 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:46.800 this is before I met Tom. I got asked online 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:50.880 these questions really and I and he said, like, I 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:53.240 really hope I'm not offending you, but these are really 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:55.960 important to me, and like I need to know just 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:58.560 to be clear and upfront. And I had no problem 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:01.800 answering that. I actually really respect that he for him, 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:03.719 these are his non negotiables And this was something he 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:07.320 really valued. So obviously I wouldn't personally recommend that, and 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:09.400 I wouldn't personally do that myself. You've got to let 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:11.360 nature take its course and get to know each other. 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:14.320 And you know, they probably found the right person though 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:16.240 with you. In terms of if you're going to ask 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:19.760 anyone about long term financial goals, talking to Kinder Campbell 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:21.680 is probably the well the comment. 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:24.520 The relationship never stopped right then, and then we didn't 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:26.880 actually make it to the date up because I actually 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:30.400 but because I met Tom. But you know, and that's 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:33.360 another classic example. When I met Tom, he had this 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:38.240 really like relaxed attitude to mortgage. He had been told 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:40.280 that you never paid for a mortgage, No one ever 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:43.240 does it. It's not possible. And you know, he was 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:45.360 spending a lot of money. And when I actually showed 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:47.960 and I was like, who the hell told you that? 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:49.920 That's ridiculous. Of course you can pay for home. And 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:52.600 I just showed a few few simple things like extra 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:55.760 mortgage repayments, increasing it out, rounding it up. The look 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:57.440 on his face he was like, oh my goodness, and 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:02.920 it instantly changed his attitude towards being living a mortgage 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:05.240 free life. And I'd say at times, he's probably more 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:07.520 more motivated than I am to pay off our home loan. 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:10.520 So you know, it's you've got to really use your 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:14.000 intuition and that emotional IQ to go. All right, I 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:15.600 feel like we're getting into this stage where we can 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:17.520 have this conversation, but let's do it in a really 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:22.280 safe way. You don't need to tackle your whole entire finances, 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:24.600 but it can start with something really simple like how 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:27.360 do you budget your money? Or you know, I'm thinking 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:29.680 we're thinking of going on holiday, Like how would you 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:32.079 see us forwarding this so that we can both have 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:34.880 a great time, Like come from a positive place and 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:39.040 you know, be vulnerable, lean into that. And you know, 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:40.960 at the end of the day, if this is not 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:45.520 right coming from someone who's been dworsd twice, don't like 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:47.520 you listen to your guard. If you're like, you know what, 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:50.040 this is not right, don't throw the baby out with 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:53.000 the bath water. But you need to sort of think, Okay, 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:55.040 do I continue on seeing where this will go in 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:57.160 the conversation we have and see if we can come 0:08:57.160 --> 0:08:59.360 on to the same page, or is this actually not 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:02.080 the right relationship for me at this point of my life? 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:03.080 And what's important to me. 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:06.240 Okay, that's good advice. We're starting to get a bit 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:08.440 more serious now with a few of these red flags. 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:15.239 What are the warning signs when someone just isn't transparent 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:20.840 right about their money. Perhaps they're vague about income that 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:23.840 one I can kind of understand, vague about debt, would 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:26.840 bending habits. Yeah, when they're just being vague about it 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:31.280 all and not transparent at all about their attitudes to 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:32.000 money as well. 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.360 Yeah, No, these are definitely warning signs. And like a 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:36.400 classic one that is the most I think the most 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:40.120 frightening one is gambling because you can't it's not like 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:42.400 alcohol drugs. You can smell it, you can see it 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:44.960 in someone's behavior. Gambling can go on for a long 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:48.760 time without people having any idea. It's very it's an 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:51.120 easy addiction to hide. It's not until it gets to 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:54.800 crisis point that it's you know, it becomes apparent and obvious. 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:57.319 But you know, I'd say the warning signs like hiding 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:02.360 shame insecurity and controlling shoes as well. And as I said, 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:05.520 full transparency doesn't have to happen open night overnight, but 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:10.160 the openness has to definitely build up consistently over time. 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:14.720 What about hiding purchases? Is that ever okay in a 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:17.720 relationship or is it a sign of deeper money issues. 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:20.080 I'm a big no no on this, okay, And I 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:24.400 know and it's a bit of a polarizing opinion, but 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:26.760 you know, there's a lot of jokes going on and 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:29.440 like being on social media where you know, women hiding 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:32.080 their purchases in the boot of the car or you know, 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:34.880 in funny places. I don't think that's cool at all. 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:37.040 I don't think it's funny, like you should be able 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:40.160 to go, look, darling, look I bought for myself. Isn't 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:44.160 this dress beautiful? Like your partnership, look back and go Okay, 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:45.880 I know that they've bought that within the boundaries of 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:49.360 our budget, and I'm happy to see them spending money 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:52.040 in a responsible way, in a balanced way, and it's 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:53.840 not going to jeopardize our financial well being in there 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:56.920 is equality and respect to the flow of money, and 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.240 that's that's where I stand. 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:03.120 Yeah, it's kind of horrifying to think about. I can't 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:05.720 know that that's all done very in a light way online, 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:09.000 those jokes about it all, But I mean, in many cases, 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:11.760 there would be situations where people feel and the necessity 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:14.040 to hide their purchases because they're worried about how the 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:17.240 other person's going to react things that it's like, Oh, 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:18.680 it is a slippery slope. 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:20.839 It feels like it isn't at the end of the day, 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.840 No one feels good hiding stuff from other people. It 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:26.640 doesn't sit nicely inside one's body. 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.960 No, Okay, we're going to take a very quick break. 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:32.520 We're going to come back then. We've got a series 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:36.040 of these are really quite serious red flags and serious issues, 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:37.520 but I do want to go through them. Will take 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:46.040 a break, be back in a moment. Can we are 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:49.880 talking about financial red flags in relationships? What to watch 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:53.360 out for, what's relatively minor and what is more serious. 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:56.120 We're definitely at the more serious end of the scale. Now, 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:59.839 what about if one partner makes all the money to 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:04.319 decisions and just expects the other person to go along 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:06.240 with it. That is, that's got to be a red. 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:10.280 Flag, Absolutely, a massive red flag. So particularly if there's 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:14.360 no discussion or no consent. No, and even if one 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:18.439 person might be making the majority of the family income 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:21.880 and they're handling all the ad men. You know, both 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:23.640 partners at the end of the day should have equal 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:27.520 say in those big decisions. And you know, those decisions 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:31.479 have consequences, they have risks, They may come with sacrifices 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:33.160 as well. For example, we're going to invest in this, 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:36.360 so therefore we can't spend money on that. It's this 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:40.240 is where some big problems a lie. And this is 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:44.160 why that awareness of financial abuse is so important. And 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.320 often with this sense of financial control and restriction, there's 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:50.800 often a gateway to other forms of manipulation and relationships. 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:52.120 Doesn't just stop there. 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:56.800 Well, okay, financial manipulation, let's talk about that. What are 0:12:56.880 --> 0:13:01.160 some signs that one person might be financially manipulating the 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:03.959 other even in kind of subtle ways. Is it making 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:05.880 sure that all the builds are in their name and 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:08.679 not letting the other person see anything that's coming in 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:10.520 kind of or or is that more extreme? 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:13.599 Well, now I'd say it's almost more psychological. 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:15.599 You know, it's like guilt. 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:19.960 Tripping someone into not spending money. Oh, you don't really 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:22.160 need that, you've got you know, you've got a nice 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:24.760 dress already at home, you can just wear that. Again, 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:28.240 like making them feel bad for actually spending money and 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:33.760 drawing money, you know, monitoring or criticizing every single transaction 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:35.560 like why did you spend that? Why did you buy 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:38.120 that brand and not that brand? You know, getting angry 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:42.880 at them and you know, psychologically punishing them through stone 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:48.559 walling and then delaying or avoiding joint decisions. And I've 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:53.640 seen this, I've seen this closely in a certain situation, 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:56.400 and it was quite sickening to watch where they're almost 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:59.240 like dangled carrot and said, oh, yes, we will do 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:02.120 the joint account, we will make it. You know, we'll explain, 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:05.680 but never actually happened, and that person hang hung hope 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:08.200 on that moment that day would one day come, and 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:11.520 it never did, and in the meantime, they were, you know, 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:12.480 ripping them off. 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:14.480 That's frightening. 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:16.240 So it's heartbreaking. 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:20.960 Yeah, that's really scary debt. Okay, And I'm sorry, I 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:22.880 realized this feels like I'm just going through a shopping 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:26.680 list of red flags now, But I mean it makes 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:31.720 you realize how broad the spectrum of financial red flags, 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:35.080 and from the lighter kind of oh yeah, we're probably 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:37.640 not compatible right through to these things that are well, 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:40.880 it's actually criminal when we get down to the coercive 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:44.240 control and some of that abuse. 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:46.960 And this list is really I think for awareness because 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:49.280 so often it's socially when you know the rose tinted 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.080 glasses on, you don't realize what's going on until you 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.080 know it ends, or you get that perspective, and sometimes 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:57.800 it's you know, quite there's a lot more on the line, 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:01.800 children emotions, it's mortgages, things like that. 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:04.200 Now, debt has come up a couple of times so 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:07.320 far in this conversation. If someone comes into a relationship 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:11.120 with a lot of debt, right, at what point does 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:13.720 that cross from just being the reality of this is 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:16.240 kind of the way they are, and it's some baggage 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:19.200 that they are carrying, perhaps a big personal loan or 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:21.000 something that they still haven't paid off. At what point 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:25.120 does that become a red flag? Is it when they 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.880 have no intention of paying it off, or they want 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:31.480 to share that debt with the other person, or the 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:34.880 debt is kind of part of their money mentality. 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:37.800 Or even their money block. So it's more about how 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:42.080 they actually managed the debt, you know, are they hiding it? 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:44.840 Are they only making the minimum repayments when they could 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.760 actually be paying that debt off. The lack of accountability 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.760 to just pointing their finger at others blaming others. You know, 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:54.680 you know my ex partner ruined my credit score and 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:57.200 got me into this loan and tricked me. And you 0:15:57.240 --> 0:15:59.120 know my family member did this or that to me, 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:02.560 like just passing the buck or you know, expecting you 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:05.240 to be fine with it and just either maybe fix 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:08.400 it up for them or actually just like them ignore 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:11.400 the actual problem at hand and the long term consequences 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:16.040 of debt. And you know, debt, as you said, is unavoidable. Unavoidable, 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:19.880 it's a natural part of life. But you seeing someone 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:24.960 be open and honest and transparent and take responsibility for 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.960 the situation they're in and us as an opportunity to 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:31.800 learn and change history so that they never repeat history 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:36.040 is really important and really admirable. And I think that's 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:37.760 the sign that you want to look for to know, Okay, 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:42.640 what this potential partner of mine has debt, but we'll 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:44.960 work together and getting out of this. And you know, 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:48.160 whether they paid off themselves or you get a game 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:51.960 plan in place, but you can come back from this 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:54.280 quite easily if you do it in the right way 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:55.640 and manage it mindfully. 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:59.680 Yeah, and communication, once again is key everything. It's just 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:02.400 it feels like every one of these things. It does 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:08.040 come back to communication and trust. Yeah, okay on that right. 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:11.840 So say you and your partner have it pretty well 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:15.359 set up together, that's not the problem here. What about 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:21.680 if your partner is financially supporting a friend or a 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:26.440 family member and that is starting to affect your own goals. 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:28.040 And I know that sounds like it's kind of oh, 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:28.760 that would never happen. 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:31.639 It does happens a lot. It happens a lot. I 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:34.960 actually did a recent podcast on Sugar Mama's Fireplay about, 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:38.239 you know, supporting a mother who was financially vulnerable. And 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:41.880 it's also a part of certain cultures where you take 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:44.240 care of your elderly parents. That is what is done 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:47.520 and that is what is expected. So it's not actually 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:51.480 necessarily toxic, but it can become a problem if it's 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:55.080 not addressed quickly with boundaries put in place. And you 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:57.320 know when I see it being a red flag is 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.159 when it's interfering with your goals. For example, you no 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:01.800 longer can go and buy a home because you've got 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:06.760 to bail out family members' debts, or you are changing 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:10.199 the plan without actually discussing what you previously agreed on, 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:14.000 or you start putting pressure on all the person's being 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:17.680 pressure on you or creating resentment in your relationship, that's 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:19.280 when it's an issue, and that's when you need to 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:21.960 almost go and see a financial counselor. And you know, 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:24.679 just because you're a partner, you're also not necessarily a 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:27.120 financial safety net for everybody else in your life. 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:32.359 Okay, we're nearly out of time, but the big one 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:36.480 is probably still to come here. It is about financial 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:42.639 control and coercive control within a relationship. What are the 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:45.680 signs that this is happening. We've touched on a few 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.320 of them. But how does it differ from just having 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:51.280 different approaches to money and different kind of attitudes to money? 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:54.479 At what point is it crossing over into something that 0:18:54.640 --> 0:19:00.000 is coercive control? Coercive control and is so so dangerous. 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.680 Yeah, so, you know, forcing you to hand over income, 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.919 to have to justify every single expense, no matter how 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:11.359 big or how small, you know, having to ask permission 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:13.679 if you can spend it something, especially on just the 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:18.040 normal basic essentials of life, you know, denying access to 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:22.639 accounts and cards, you know, and sabotaging your ability to 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:26.320 actually work or earn a living or even start up 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:32.320 a side hustle and then making really hurtful financial threats 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:34.840 like you know you'd have nothing without me. You know 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:38.359 that isn't just financial abuse, that's a form of course 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:39.760 of controllers for us. I'm concerned. 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:45.240 So what do you do if if someone is hearing 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:49.080 you say this and go, I've heard that coming out 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:52.760 of the mouth of my partner, Like, where do you 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:55.240 go from there? How do you start to protect yourself 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:59.480 if you if you might kind of recognize this and 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:03.560 start to feel like you are being controlled or coerced. 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:06.359 The first place I would start is open up a 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:09.800 separate bank account, but obviously only in your name, and 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:12.800 start building up you know, some personal funds as much 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:16.640 as you can, and talk to someone close that can 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:18.800 help keep you safe and is aware of what's going on. 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:21.520 So this is a friend or a family member, a 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:27.000 trusted friend, trusted family member. And professional assistance, Absolutely professional assistance. 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:29.320 But coming back to the practical side, obviously the bank 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:31.920 account and making sure that you know you have your 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:34.000 login details, you don't share it with anyone else, don't 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:37.440 write it down, you know it's completely protected, and then 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:40.800 go and have regular check ins just because you don't 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:42.800 have to throw the baby out with the bathballer necessarily. 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:45.600 But you know, I feel like a lot of people 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:50.560 actually act in a financially abusive way without even realizing it. 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:53.240 It's not until you sit down with a marriage counselor 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:56.320 or a financial counselor that they actually say, you know what, 0:20:56.520 --> 0:21:00.520 that's not acceptable. You can't say that that's inappropriate, that's sensitive, 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:02.800 that's hurtful, and they can start to have really healthy, 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:07.360