1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: He had a few good cars or a lot of 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: good casts. Was that de wise? 3 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 2: I think those guys didn't really think about wise. 4 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: No, that's a that's true, And prudence wasn't really their game. 5 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 2: It was the old expression that a wolf's wages were 6 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 2: ady quid plus half the cargar. I've made some reference 7 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 2: to Raychuk being a legend, and the comment I got 8 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 2: is one of the few comments I've got from me, 9 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 2: and is he wasn't the architect. 10 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: I'm Andrew rule his life in crimes. Today in the studio, 11 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: we have a guest, a very special guest, and his 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: name is Gregory Carroll, probably known more as Greg Carroll. 13 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: I imagine Greg Carroll has a surname that some of our 14 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 1: listeners might find vaguely familiar, and that is because Greg 15 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: is the younger brother of the late Ian Ravel Carroll, 16 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: who was at one time a golden gloves boxer, or 17 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: at least a pretty handy boxer who moved, as many 18 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: boxers did, good old, bad old days into sort of 19 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,759 Speaker 1: shadowy world inhabited by painters and dockers and scully wags 20 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: of all sorts, and from the boxing gym to the docks, 21 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: he moved into the crime scene, and it is widely 22 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: held that he was one of the six armed men 23 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: who robbed the Victorian Club as we will call it, 24 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: the Great Bookie Robbery in April nineteen seventy six. Welcome Greg. 25 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 1: You are Ian ravel Carroll's brother, and you've written a 26 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: very handy book called Eleven Minutes, which, as I've said 27 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: to you away from the microphone and I meant it 28 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: is one of the better examples of the sort of 29 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: self published genre. I think it's tight and tough and 30 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: very readable, and in fact I compared it when I 31 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: was talking to you with the work of Brian Brown, 32 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: now an Australian actor who's turned his hand to writing. 33 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 2: I haven't read any Brian's work, but I think i'll 34 00:01:58,440 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 2: have to get into it now. 35 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's sort of up there. You're not 36 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: quite as famous as Brian, but you do share those 37 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: rugged good looks. Oh right, thank you. Ragged anyway, when 38 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: did you decide to write eleven Minutes, your most excellent 39 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: novelized version of the Great Bookie Robbery and it's aftermath. 40 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 2: Well, I guess you'd have to say I idolized my brother, 41 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 2: as you would I'm in the big difference and age things, 42 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 2: and he from the book he Robbie from being in 43 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 2: the Secretary of the Union, or that he had quite 44 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 2: an illustrious career. I originally set out to write a 45 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 2: biography on him, Yeah, obviously being related. I collected all 46 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 2: press clips and everything over the years, so I had 47 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 2: a wealth of background knowledge. But I got to a 48 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 2: point when I was writing the biography there were too 49 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 2: many gaps. I mean, the book would have been waste 50 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 2: of time. Then at some stage it dawned me, well, 51 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 2: why don't I just fill in what I think and 52 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 2: might have happened it might have happened, and call it 53 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 2: an so no one can argue you about me about 54 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: whether I'm saying he's right or wrong. 55 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: It's a story your brother, without putting too much mayonnaise 56 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: on it was the black sheep of the family, I imagine 57 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: from my father's point of view, Yes, very much so, 58 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: and you weren't. Yes, So tell us more. Take us 59 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: back to your childhood and where it started, because we're 60 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: going to get to the great Bookie Robery eventually. You know, 61 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: start with that. Well, Ian was the oldest of four 62 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 1: and I. 63 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 2: Was the youngest. What about nine years? Nine years and 64 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 2: my father was his stepfather. So Ian was actually born 65 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 2: in England and then came over here and married your father, correct, okay, 66 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 2: And then the other three of us were from here 67 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 2: from him? 68 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: Are your half brothers half? I guess do you know 69 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: who his natural father was or did your mom mother say? Yeah? Yeah, 70 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: I know. His surname was Gardner? Okay? Which bit of England, 71 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: Surrey and London? Really? 72 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: I think my mum and her family were really London 73 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 2: is probably southern south London. Yeah, but they'd like to 74 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 2: say that from Surrey, I think. 75 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: Oh, okay, okayrated as a young woman. 76 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, well after the war, after the war, yeah, so 77 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 2: obviously England was in dire straits. Yes, the course, so 78 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 2: they came out as I assumed ten pound bomps, but 79 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 2: a mother and child. Yes, they came via South Africa 80 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 2: and that's where they met my father. So my father's 81 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 2: South Africa, oh okay, right, and they got married in 82 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 2: South Africa and. 83 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: Then came here, came here, oh right, And what did 84 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: your father do? 85 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 2: He grew up on the mines in South Africa, So 86 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 2: I think carpenter and pattern maker obviously went into the 87 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 2: Army during the war, they came over here. He worked 88 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 2: as a refinery worker in Altona I think it was. 89 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 2: And when I was a kid in those early days, 90 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: we lived in Yerol. He then rejoined, but not rejoined. 91 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 2: He was in the army and he joined the Air 92 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 2: Force here, the Australian Air Force, and he did drafting. 93 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: A smart capable man and Laura body, Yes, very much 94 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: hard working, Yes, I mean he obviously had a range 95 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: of skills, yes, and begon discipline. If you know South 96 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: African's you know the difference. And how was home life. 97 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: So your older half sibling was Ian, who was to 98 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: some extent, probably slightly different in some respects from the. 99 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 2: Never I never really thought of him being anything different 100 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 2: than my brother. Obviously it's probably caused the friction between 101 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 2: him and my father. Oh yeah, And so he I 102 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 2: don't know what rebelled. I guess you'd call it these days. 103 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 2: But he's starting in trouble quite early. And at fourteen 104 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 2: he got charged and sentenced for blasphemy. It's basically just 105 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 2: stealing and went to Tarana. What pinched a bike or no, no, no, 106 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 2: he was breaking into shops and stealing smarks actually, but. 107 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: Of course he was went to Taranta, which, of course 108 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: is the start of many many a criminal koreer. Yeah, well, 109 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: did you get the Taranta star tattooed on his ear? No? 110 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no, he had plenty of tattoos. 111 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: There was no star, and he didn't have any tatoos 112 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 2: on his ears. 113 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: No. Yeah, he did refer to it as the best 114 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: school he ever went to. Yeah, how long was he in? 115 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: Eighteen months? Okay, So bond Scott goes in in Perth 116 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: and comes out of rock singer and goes in and 117 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 1: comes out of a fighter. Yeah, well yeah, obviously thing. 118 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: Yeah and. 119 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess he became a fighter first, and in 120 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 2: Richmond and in the suburbs. That kind of leads yourself 121 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 2: to being what do you want to call it? Yeah, 122 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:56,799 Speaker 2: around must look about the knock about groups. 123 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: So he went to Berry's gym, Yes he went, yeah, yeah, 124 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: and he would have been a contemporary of all sorts 125 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: of interesting characters, Yeah, Leo the lout McDonald and others. 126 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: All sorts of people, some of them well known, some 127 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: not so, but they all knew each other. Yes, and 128 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: the fight crowd in those days was yes, yeah, an 129 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: interesting crew and many of them were trained it trained 130 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: or did train it leah, Yes, yeah, and Leo was 131 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: run forever. Leo wasn't around forever, he told me once 132 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: he had not. All my boys went the right way, 133 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: all the way I would have wanted. I'm not. Yeah. 134 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: It was about as much as he'd say. Yeah, but yeah, funny. 135 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 2: So from there he ended up on the docks, the 136 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,239 Speaker 2: painter and dockers as a pretty young fellow. 137 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, seventeen. I think it was when he's how 138 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: good a fighter was he like in the ring? You know, 139 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: good enough to win a few, but yeah, I wouldn't. 140 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 2: It was on TV ring side, Yeah, gold gloves obviously, 141 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 2: but he never achieved any great stepped out of it 142 00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: before he could. 143 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. So he other interests. Yeah, he 144 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,239 Speaker 1: found other words to use his skills. Yeah with him? Yeah, okay? 145 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: And what weight did he fight it? No? Light? Was 146 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: he like lightweight? Yes? So no? 147 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 2: No, I was taller than him, so oh yeah he 148 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 2: is so Yeah. He referred to me as his little brother. 149 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 2: But I can't be an install of them. 150 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: Oh okay, he was a genuine lightweight. He wasn't get yeah, 151 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: which is you know, Barry Michael foot lightweight. Yeah. Yeah, 152 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: it was on the small side of middle size. I 153 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: was with the painters and docas. He ended up involved 154 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 1: in the Union quite heavily, wasn't he. 155 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, in seventy four, oh, probably seventy three he got 156 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:39,599 Speaker 2: appointed as secretary. 157 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: After Shannon left the world. Oh, yes, and that's the 158 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: late Batchanon. Yeah, he left the world, Yes, he did. 159 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: Then a pub that's now on a different name. Yes, 160 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:54,719 Speaker 1: later became the Water Rattles, Yes, but I think it's 161 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: now called Yeah. I think they changed his name a 162 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: couple of times. Yeah. Well, the Indud Druids in the 163 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: old day, I had a few, Yeah, the Druids in 164 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: the Billy Longley was I think convicted of Yes, he was. 165 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 2: He got convicted, and he always maintained right through to 166 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 2: after his release that it wasn't him and that he 167 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 2: was stitched. 168 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: Up and they got him from one He didn't. He 169 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 1: did plenty of others. Oh yeah, yeah. So the bloke 170 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: who pulled the tricker might have gone inside assisted Chopper 171 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: read to cut his years off Chopper's request. The actual 172 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: shooter I think younger, young Bud, but Billy was tied 173 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,599 Speaker 1: into it apparently, bit of docs politics. Oh, it was 174 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: very much. 175 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 2: I mean that was the whole basis of the waterfronts, 176 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 2: which was. 177 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: All down to money in the end, who was going 178 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: to divvy up? Yeah, well who's going to divvy up there? 179 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was kind of an unofficial crime control of Melbourne. 180 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 2: I think that the payer and dockers and so. Yeah, 181 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 2: there was a war of who. 182 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,319 Speaker 1: Ruled, who ruled, and so they had all the good rackets, 183 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: did they not? They had the ghosting, so go six 184 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: bucks in the crew, but there'd be ten pay packets 185 00:09:59,440 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: or whatever. 186 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think out of costaic and it came 187 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 2: out that twice as many people were. 188 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: Paid as actually actually worked as we're in the unions. Yeah, 189 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: very but they looked after each other that they didn't, 190 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: no doubt about it. So by the time he gets 191 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: involved in that, he might only have been twenty twenty one, 192 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: when he's quite oh like quite young, Yes, very young. 193 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: And so you're still a school kid, Yes, I would 194 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: have been at that. You were at high school in 195 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: primary school. 196 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 2: In Yarroval, grew up in Yarville, and then for high 197 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 2: school the family moved over to the East Side. Oh yeah, 198 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 2: far like well out wavely Wavely, which in those days 199 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 2: was far out right. 200 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, Orchard's next door, Yeah, yeahah. So I went to 201 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: high school there and okay, and what did you how 202 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: did you go? Not good? Not good? Oh? Not good? No, No, 203 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: I wasn't a nice kid. 204 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm looking back at it now, but no, 205 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 2: I got kicked out in fourth form, which is what 206 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,839 Speaker 2: year tend now. So then I went did night school 207 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 2: at spring Val night school and back down here. 208 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: So did you were right that I should work harder? 209 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 2: Well, you said, either get out or get some qualifications, 210 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 2: and you did. 211 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: I did? And what did you do? Then? 212 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 2: I got into computers, but in those days there wasn't degrees. 213 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 2: I actually did a diplimber of business at Corfield Tech 214 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 2: in those days, which is now part of Monish. So 215 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 2: I did a diplomber there again at night. And then 216 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 2: what were you doing in the daytime? 217 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: Computer work? 218 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 2: I started off in a computer company as what they 219 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 2: referred to as a tape library. And you wouldn't understand 220 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 2: these days, but before discs, there were tapes, yes, real tapes, 221 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 2: and I was the gopher that had to get there 222 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 2: at six o'clock in the morning get all the tapes out. 223 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 2: There via the roster of what it had and then 224 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 2: put the others way in big machines that oh they were, 225 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 2: they were, They were shoot that took up a floor 226 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 2: like these computers, and they probably sit on your desk today. 227 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, the phone's got more power, yeah, Mazi. So at 228 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: what stage did you start work? What year? Seventy four? 229 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: I think it was also two years before the Great 230 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: Bookie Robbery. You're a young bloke working. Of course, most 231 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: listeners will know of the Great Bookie Robbery. What we 232 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: have here today is Greg Carroll, whose oldest brother Ian 233 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: was one of the great Bookie Robbers. Now, the others, 234 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: it would appear, were Vinnie Michelson, who could still be 235 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,839 Speaker 1: alive today. Yes, we don't know what happened to you. 236 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: He is the only survivor at this point. Laurie Prendergast, 237 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: who fanished, finished and declared dead in eighty five. The 238 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: man that's regarded as the leader, the general, the man 239 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: on the ground, who was Raymond Patrick Chuck also known 240 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: as Ray Bennett, a very good crook, one of the 241 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: better ones. And it wasn't Russell Cox, he wasn't the present. 242 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: He was in jail in New South Wales at the time, 243 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: but there was another one or two there, weren't there Greek, Yeah, 244 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: there was Tony McNamara. Tony McNamara and normally, and we've 245 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: heard about Normally before. He also was a fair bit 246 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: younger than he was born in nineteen fifty, I think normally, 247 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: so they are relatively young bucks at this stage in 248 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: the mid to late twenties, weren't they. And Normally of 249 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: course died in an armed robbery some years later at 250 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: the Melbourne Airport. We've talked about him before. He was 251 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: the man with the dim sim factory. That's a story 252 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: in the story in itself. So those are the real 253 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 1: life names. And Greg Carroll actually knew two or three 254 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: of them quite well, and he'd met most of them. 255 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: What was your impression of Raychuck as in Raychuck alias Bin. 256 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 2: I was always basically not told but inferred to get 257 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 2: lost when when he was around. I lived around the 258 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 2: corner from me, so nearly every weekend I'd be in 259 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 2: his place. 260 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: Okay, where was that oll? 261 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 2: Initially it was in Ringwood and then moved out, moved 262 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 2: out to Wonga Park when after thet got cash and 263 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 2: he brought the big blockout. 264 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, triple garage. It was a barn. We used 265 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: to call it a barn. It was not a lot 266 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: more than triple all right. He had a few good 267 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: cars or a lot of good cars. I mean was 268 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: that the wise? I think those guys didn't really think 269 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: about wise. No, that's that's true. And prudence wasn't really 270 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: their gat. 271 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 2: Guess I can talk about it that they had contempt 272 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 2: for the police. Yeah you know, Ian would make comments like, 273 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 2: you know, the cops couldn't find their as Yeah yeah, 274 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 2: so yeah, so they didn't really think so they had 275 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 2: a problem. 276 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: What what what the cast? Did they? And by possibly 277 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: post seventy six? I'm sure everybody's interested, Yeah, okay, Well 278 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: he had a lot of old cars. He had a 279 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: I think it was the twenty nine, all right, he's 280 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: a bit of a collector. Oh yeah, yeah, he had 281 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: a Dodge fifty six. He had a couple of fifty 282 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: six cars. He had a what do you call it 283 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: a Cadillac? Did he with the Cadi? The Finns all 284 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: that it was magnificence. What did your parents think of this? 285 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: What was the conversation at home when when he wasn't. 286 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 2: There or it was the case when I was still 287 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 2: at school and he he would only come around to 288 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 2: see his mother obviously, so and father and him never 289 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 2: got on. And he would have only been nineteen or 290 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 2: maybe twenty at the time he came around in the 291 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 2: cadillac to see of all of you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 292 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 2: visit moumon. Yeah, but I remember on that trip. But 293 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 2: he came out and played with me outside, So I mean, 294 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 2: you know, he was still Yeah, he spent time with 295 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 2: us even back then. But he turned up in the 296 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 2: caddy and. 297 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: So this is late seventy six, seven, seventh, No. 298 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 2: No, no, no, this is before saw that he was 299 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 2: already catched up from the docks. 300 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, so he was rolling along pretty well. So no, 301 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: this would have been three wages and they collected a 302 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: souvenirs as well. Oh yeah, no doubt it went past. 303 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: It was the old expression that a wolf's wages were 304 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: eighty quid plus half the cargar. Yeah. 305 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 2: When he came around that time in the caddy, father 306 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 2: just referred to him as a criminal. He just said, 307 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 2: you're gone, You're a criminal now. 308 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: Pretty damning. Yeah, this would be hard for your mother 309 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: because she loved him. Yeah, what was her reaction. I 310 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: don't know. 311 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 2: She never really commented on it. Not long after that 312 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 2: mother and father split. Oh, okay, so they went around anyway. 313 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 2: Mum lived with him for a while. It was probably 314 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 2: before the before the robbery. 315 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: The planning of the robbery. Now you've got this understanding 316 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: that you picked up over time, over different meetings, different meals, 317 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: and someone about who might have had a bit of 318 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: a master plan. And I have to say here that 319 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 1: Billy Longley, who may or may not have told the truth, 320 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: because they were all quite capable of telling you something 321 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: to suit themselves for some reason. He once said to me. 322 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: And of course they always want to see them omnipotent, 323 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: and you know they know and other people can't know 324 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: all that. He once said to me. He said, Oh, 325 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: there was a bit of a plan around. It was 326 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: put to me once, son of the bookie, the Victorian 327 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: Club could be done. And I said, and who mentioned 328 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: that to you, book Billy? And he said, a horse 329 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: trainer actually from the country, is what he said to me. 330 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: Now that doesn't mean that happened, but I think it's 331 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: probably clear. And you're you're going to comment on this 332 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: because you probably no more than any other living person 333 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 1: at this stage that somebody somewhere must have been able 334 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: to put together a fairly articulate, fluent plan to do this. 335 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,880 Speaker 1: It was a window of opportunity and had to be 336 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: well executed, well oiled machinery in a way that we 337 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: don't see many robberies pulled. There's only one other crew, 338 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: which is another crew entirely that has done something as 339 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: sophisticated as this. What your thoughts are? There was a 340 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: there was, yes, and to say that we're talking here, 341 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: listeners about a person not actually in the gang, not 342 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: someone who carried a gun on the day, but someone 343 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: who said, here's the plan. This happens on this day. 344 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: You be there, you do this, and don't do this, 345 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: and do this and don't do this. Somebody drew a 346 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 1: blueprint for them. That's correct. Maybe, yes, possibly, possibly, that's 347 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: my understanding. Is it well? 348 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 2: Again, going back to the time, you remember, I was 349 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 2: a lot younger, and young people tend to be impressionable, 350 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 2: and so at one time, and I don't remember the 351 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 2: actual circumstances, I made some reference to Ray Ray Chuck 352 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 2: being a legend, and the comment I got in is 353 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 2: one of the few comments I got from me and 354 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 2: is he wasn't the architect, right, So in the book 355 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 2: I refer to this person as the architect, but Ian 356 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 2: wouldn't have meant that as he's alias. 357 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 1: No, No, he was meaning I know, as an architect. 358 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,199 Speaker 2: But then I just used that as I thought, OK, 359 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 2: that's a good character. 360 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: He'll be right in saying that. But what we don't 361 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,159 Speaker 1: really know is who the other person mister Rex was. 362 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 2: That's correct, And I've read a bit. I'll just listen 363 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 2: to you have and there's a number of different thoughts of 364 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 2: who that was the one that I prefer, And again 365 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,199 Speaker 2: it's just a gut feeling. Is at some stage I 366 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 2: read about Scotland Yard believing that it was a well 367 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:06,479 Speaker 2: known English at Krim who was living in Australia at 368 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 2: the time and was responsible for not just the Bookie robbery, 369 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 2: but half a dozen other major robberies around the place. 370 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: What I put in the book is this. 371 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 2: Guy who plans the whole thing, whoever he is, and 372 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 2: he hands the blueprints for the not for the building, 373 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 2: but for the how to do it to them, and 374 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 2: then they go away and he wants nothing further to do, 375 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 2: just get he gets he gets among thieves but you 376 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 2: never heard a reference from anybody. 377 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 1: About who that I was or could have been or no. 378 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 2: So it's only from my own research and things I 379 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 2: mentioned about Scotland Yard had an idea and. 380 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: Now just depending on loose newspaper took, everybody else does it. 381 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 2: But they said they knew who it was, and that 382 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 2: they described him as looking like Charles Bronson. 383 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 1: So it's interesting, but we knowed a really old crooked Yeah. 384 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,919 Speaker 1: To go back to that trouble is they're not around, 385 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: not around. Yeah, Yeah, interesting thing. There's no doubt somebody 386 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 1: had a bit of insight info. 387 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 2: Or even just the basic thing about that the access 388 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 2: to all between the building next door and very well 389 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 2: for it. Yeah, so because there are also four differences. 390 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 2: So we're talking about the third floor of one building 391 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 2: coming into the second floor of the Victoria Club, so 392 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 2: it had been sealed over and painted over. So from 393 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 2: the Victorian Club they didn't know. And again you would know. 394 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: I got I got that from the blog. Who I 395 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: think he was the secretary of the Victorian Club. We 396 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: had some function in the place, A nice man. I 397 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: think he's died since he telled me all that stuff 398 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: about the access and the door was painted over and 399 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,360 Speaker 1: pretty well you didn't see it, yeah, but it was there. 400 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: I was there, so for them to have known that, 401 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: it's not something you'd stumble on. No. And he did 402 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: also say there was a blog and he's We never 403 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 1: knew his name. We just got into blowfly who turned up. 404 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: He said it was very loose the Victorian Club. You 405 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: didn't sign people in that much. You could sign them 406 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: in under body names. Once they'd been there. Once, they'd 407 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: just wandering and get served. And it wasn't that hard 408 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 1: for somebody to infiltrate the place and sort of hang 409 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: around and drink and eat there. And someone did for 410 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: he said, this particular bloke for some weeks, but he 411 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: never appeared again after the Robert. He said he had 412 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: some story about he was from South Australia and he 413 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: was in transport and he'd hang around with different schools 414 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: and drinkers and bookies and chat and all these and 415 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: he always thought that maybe that book was the sort 416 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 1: of eyes and ears of doing the groundwork ahead of 417 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: the thing, which brings us to the name of Stan James. 418 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: Stan James was a bit older than some of these fellows. 419 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: Your brother was born in forty seven Romond Patrick Chuck 420 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: was born in forty eight, I think, and I think 421 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 1: the next one, the one that was the fighter McNamara 422 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: born nineteen fifty. Yeah, the others were Stan James was 423 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: born in nineteen forty six, so he was a bit 424 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: older than you know. Ben Chuck is often regarded as 425 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: something like a mastermind, the leader of the game. But 426 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: he was younger than this guy James. So they're all 427 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: relatively young blug so they but they've grown up fast 428 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 1: and tough. They had been out there doing things sintil fourteen. 429 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: It's on the twenty eight. They've been around the block. 430 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: And we all know, of course that Ray Chuck had 431 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: been locked up in England, international crook. He'd slipped the 432 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: leash there on. 433 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,959 Speaker 3: On weekly leave or something, flown home under a Boddy 434 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 3: can believe it, and was seen in the northern suburbs 435 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 3: and then flew back to finished his time. 436 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 1: That cuts just a wonderful crook in England. He'd been 437 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 1: grabbed and knocked up for serious stuff robberies, and he 438 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: just switched identities with some Darrow. Some poor blug was 439 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: in there, been on the drink. He's a vagrant and 440 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: duck said he's he's fifty quid. I'm you and your mate, 441 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: And he walked out as a vagrant and got a 442 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: two pound fine. And the vagrant went up and said, 443 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 1: oh sorry, I'm not actually Roman, Patrick Chuck and so 444 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 1: top crook. Yes, in any company, in any country in 445 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: the world. 446 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, but talking about the architecture for one of a 447 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 2: better it's kind of like in the military merit of 448 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 2: military intelligence come up with all the ideas and the 449 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 2: best way to do strategically said it. But you then 450 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 2: got a general on the field who has to implement it. Yes, 451 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 2: and they have to be good at the end of 452 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 2: the day and reaction and even just intelligent. How are 453 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 2: you actually carry this out? And that's what Ray was. 454 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 2: That's what Ray. He was intense. He was intense, and 455 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 2: he had that sort of gravitas. Other people stopped when 456 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 2: he started talking. 457 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. That was a great insight into him. So 458 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 1: but not the meaning, no, no, no, Ray at all. 459 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 1: Of course he was he was good at it. It 460 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: was good. Yeah, he's a very interesting puzzle. Who the 461 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 1: fifth beatlet you know, the seventh member reef from one 462 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: of them and others. You know, they said that somebody 463 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: was driving the van. The van, and that was probably 464 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: Fatty Smith, who wouldn't be walking in with the machine 465 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 1: gun because he was too big and he was close 466 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: to them. It was supposed to be driving when Lee's 467 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: Gane was killed. There were three in the building when 468 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: they killed him. Les Kane supposed to be a fourth. 469 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: Bacon McCarten might have been, said Patty Smith. Yeah, I 470 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 1: don't believe so, No, maybe not. 471 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, Fatty really didn't have the respect for these guys 472 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 2: to have. 473 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: Had it in involved. 474 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 2: They didn't like him basically, not from a fact that 475 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 2: it wasn't like a dislike like the Canes. It was 476 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 2: wouldn't trust him as far as you could throw it literally, Yeah, yeah, 477 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 2: and yeah he was there, and yeah, yes he did 478 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 2: move money. He ran that to the Manila pub bar 479 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 2: that's cleaned a lot of the money through and stuff 480 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 2: like that. So he was used and he was on 481 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,360 Speaker 2: the fringe. But I don't believe he was either in 482 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 2: the les Kane or the book he robbed yourself. I 483 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 2: don't believe he would have been part of ye. You know, 484 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 2: both those things required tightness of a group. I mean, 485 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,439 Speaker 2: you can't have a person who's likely to to fold 486 00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 2: when pushed. 487 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, good point. But regardless of who it was, there 488 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: were there were others, yes, and peripheral players you know 489 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: that needed to be didn't have to be their best mate, 490 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 1: as long as they could do something. And I wouldn't 491 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: know who they were. 492 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 2: I mean, I've got a character who is the driver 493 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 2: in the book, but that was a fictitious. 494 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 1: There is a driver, who is it? Yeah, and I've 495 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: written this. It's not a secret. But I heard it 496 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: a long time before I wrote it, and I heard 497 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: it from someone who's in my own industry who had 498 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: very good police contacts, that there was a I send 499 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: you a policeman called Janetski who was pretty tasty, and 500 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,479 Speaker 1: he I think his daughter was married to a prominent 501 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 1: abortionist in that era, which was a good deal. That's 502 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: where a lot of money came from. And that he 503 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: supposedly sent the Roberts and or major crime squad detectives 504 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: who usually guarded the money on a wild goose chase 505 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: twenty minutes before the delivery, there by enabling it to happen. Yes, 506 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: and Billy Longley I think said to me, well, of 507 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: course you wouldn't want to be robbing the Victorian club 508 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,479 Speaker 1: and run up against those consulting guys. No need, that 509 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: would be a problem. Yes, So whoever cooked up that 510 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: idea of getting those police sent away short notice that 511 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: removed that problem, Yes, because it wouldn't win a blood birth. 512 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. That's the thing. I think I referred to 513 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 2: it in the book. Back in those days, the police 514 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 2: were a lot harder and the crims were a lot harder, 515 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 2: so they had to be. But the police wouldn't renounce 516 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 2: in the press, even as been the type that would 517 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 2: shoot first and then say stop police. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 518 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: You know that your brother wasn't the only one of 519 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,959 Speaker 1: good cars. Yeah. I can think of robbery squad fellows 520 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: driving around the type jag in that era. Yeah, you know, 521 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: they were interesting, Yeah I was. I heard a story 522 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: yesterday from an next policeman, just friendship basis of what 523 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: they were like at the end, and they knock off, 524 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: they didn't go to the park and drink until dawn 525 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: and oh yeah, and turned back up to work. I 526 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: mean it was it was a hard life, hard love here, 527 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: that's right. It was a funny our business. So listeners, 528 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: at this point, everything was set to go for the 529 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: great Bookie robbery. But to hear what happened next, you'll 530 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: have to tune in next week. The book is called 531 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: Eleven Minutes. It's available online from Amazon and Toopia and 532 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: those sort of places, and it's well worth the price, 533 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: whatever that might be. 534 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it's thirty four ninety nine ye, and it's 535 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 2: also available at both Content in Melbourne and Abby's in Sydney. 536 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: Thank you, Gregory, Thanks Andrew. 537 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 2: I'll look forward to carrying on our discussions. 538 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald 539 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: Sun production for true crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. 540 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: For my columns, features and more, go to Heraldsun dot 541 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: com dot au, forward slash Andrew rule one word. For 542 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: advertising inquiries, go to News Podcasts sold at news dot 543 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: com dot au. That is all one word news podcast's 544 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: soul And if you want further information about this episode, 545 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: links are in the description.