1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Alma. 2 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 1: Something a little different today. Jennifer Westercott has had an 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: extraordinary career, including a very high profile stint at the 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: Business Council of Australia, where she was Chief Executive for 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,440 Speaker 1: almost thirteen years. Since leaving the BCA, she has continued 6 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,639 Speaker 1: to have an active role in many organizations, including becoming 7 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: a non executive member of the Governance Board at the 8 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: Reserve Bank of Australia. But she's also the chair of 9 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: Future Generation Global, which brings me to today's interview. Caroline Gurney, 10 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 1: the CEO or Future Generation, hosts a podcast called Twofold, 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: featuring conversations with some of Australia's most influential individuals. This 12 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: is part of her interview with Jennifer Westercott, covering US politics, 13 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: our own federal election and other reflections from her time 14 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: in business. 15 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 2: How concerned are you about what's happening in the United States? 16 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 2: And I mean there's a lot going on. 17 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 3: In the US. 18 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 2: I mean it must have been. It does take up 19 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 2: a lot of my nighttime reading. I'm fascinated. But what 20 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 2: lessons can Australia learn from you know, what they're going 21 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:18,559 Speaker 2: through and gone through. 22 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 3: It's a great question, and I think it's important to 23 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 3: go back to the root course of this. I think 24 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 3: people see President Trump as the instigator of this. I 25 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 3: see him as the reflection of it. And what is 26 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 3: he the reflection of He's the reflection of a very 27 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 3: very big groundswell of middle and working people feeling that 28 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 3: society does not care about them. And we saw this 29 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 3: in Brexit, we saw this when he was first selected 30 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 3: in twenty sixteen. And I think there's a tendency to 31 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 3: want to personify this around this particular individual, and I 32 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 3: don't believe that's actually kind of good way of looking 33 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 3: at it. So what do we learn from that? Well, 34 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 3: we learn that we need to be very careful about 35 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 3: what we're doing with middle and working Australians and people 36 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 3: who just feel they can't get ahead. They're working hard. 37 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 3: When we're all growing up and I'm a baby boomer 38 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 3: and I came from a very low income family, but 39 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 3: people could still kind of see the trajectory. You know, 40 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 3: if you're a couple of teachers or a couple of nurses, 41 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 3: or you know, you had a kind of reasonable job, 42 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 3: you could see that over time, you'd pay off your house, 43 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 3: you'd leave your house to your kids, you'd have money 44 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 3: for your retirement. That's how most people live their lives 45 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 3: in Australia. Increasingly, people who are professionals, or middle and 46 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 3: working people, or people who are low income workers. They're 47 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 3: working hard. They just can't see the light. They cannot 48 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 3: see how they're going to get ahead. They can't see 49 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 3: how that mortgage is going to get paid. They can't 50 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 3: see how their bills are going to get paid. They 51 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 3: can't find a pathway to get their kids the things 52 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 3: that they want for them in life. And yet they 53 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 3: say to themselves, you know, I'm working super hard, super hard. 54 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 3: And I remember being in the United States in twenty 55 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 3: fifteen and talking to a guy in the hotel that 56 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 3: I was staying at. I'd see him in the morning 57 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 3: at six o'clock. I'd seen him at night at nine o'clock. 58 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 3: We've got talking to him Monday, and he just said, 59 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 3: I just work so hard. I want to put my 60 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 3: kid to college, and I just don't think I'm going 61 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 3: to be able to do it. Those people are very 62 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 3: motivated by someone like President Trump, who offers this kind 63 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 3: of different political narrative. He offers this kind of you know, 64 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 3: planing spoken we're going to fix this, We're going to 65 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 3: do that. In Australia, I don't think we've got the 66 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 3: same kind of forces at work because we do have 67 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 3: a very very strong social security system, we do have 68 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 3: a very strong fairness kind of registering the country. But 69 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 3: we should never take our eye off the fact that 70 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 3: there are many people today who are wake up in 71 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 3: the morning, they're going to work, their traveling long distances 72 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 3: and they're getting home at night. They're exhausted. Weekends are 73 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 3: just taken up with functioning, not living, and you know, 74 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 3: the conversations we often have are not conversations that are 75 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 3: relevant to them. And we've got to get back on 76 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 3: track about thinking about you know that middle and working 77 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 3: people and giving them hope, getting the policy setting rights 78 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 3: so that they do actually have hope, and being more 79 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 3: empathetic to the fact that they feel very frustrated and 80 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 3: they feel this kind of conversation that happens in the 81 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 3: major cities does not speak to them. When I was 82 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 3: at the Business Council, I used to go out to 83 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 3: the regions a lot, and you know, you think about 84 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 3: people today in Queensland who are just really doing it 85 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 3: tough in these floods. What they see is a conversation 86 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,599 Speaker 3: that's just to complete odds with what they're trying to 87 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 3: do in those regional communities. So I think we should 88 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 3: use the United States as an opportunity to reflect on 89 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 3: what conversations we're having, but most importantly reflect on what 90 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 3: are we doing to enable middle and working Australian to 91 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 3: get ahead in this country. 92 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 2: So, as you said, you know, we have got an 93 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 2: election coming and we see, you know, through our talking 94 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 2: to shareholders and obviously working with a lot of not 95 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 2: for profits that you know, there are similar stresses here, 96 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 2: especially when it comes, as you said, to the cost 97 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 2: of living. How you know, how do you think the 98 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 2: parties should engage with voters? I mean, obviously there's the 99 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 2: camera bubble when they make a lot of their policies, 100 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 2: et cetera. But I do think a number of politicians 101 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 2: really do understand what's going out, you know, across you know, 102 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 2: regional aurural Australia. But you know, how else can they 103 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 2: engage with voters. 104 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 3: It's a good point. Look, you know, I've never met 105 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 3: anybody in politics that I can think of in my time, 106 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 3: particularly in the Business Council, where I interacted with people 107 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 3: a lot who wasn't in politics to do good. I've 108 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 3: never met anybody in the political system who who wasn't 109 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 3: trying to do the right thing by their electric, by 110 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 3: their country. And you know, I think we forget how 111 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 3: hard policy work. You know, you see them on Saturdays 112 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 3: at community events, you see them you know at night 113 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 3: community events. They're very in touch with their communities. The 114 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 3: question is how as a collective they come together to 115 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 3: get the right things done for the country. And that's complicated, 116 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 3: that's hard. Social media has not helped in that at all. 117 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 3: And then we do have a tendency to take the 118 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 3: big reforms that I think are going to be essential 119 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 3: to get the country's prosperity moving again, we take them 120 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 3: off the table because they're politically very difficult, because it's 121 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 3: a shorter because they're long term, and my nature is 122 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 3: short term. Tax reform is like, you know, the last 123 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 3: person to really tackle tax reform was John Howard. Malcolm 124 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 3: Turnbull had a very very good tax plan in my view, 125 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 3: but of course, you know, politics really got in the 126 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 3: way of it. You know, Donald Trump will lower the 127 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 3: corporate tax rate to fifteen percent here, will get that done. 128 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 3: He got it done last time down to twenty one percent. 129 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 3: Economy really took off. Investment, you know, will fly back 130 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 3: into the United States because if you're a company and 131 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 3: you've got duties to your shareholders for the returns, you're 132 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 3: going to put your money where as you should. That 133 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 3: is your responsibility to put money where investment gets the 134 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 3: greatest return. And you know, we should be watching that 135 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 3: with great deal of concern and looking at our own 136 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 3: competitive settings about whether or not we've got enough investment 137 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 3: driving productivity, which drives wage growth. So I think, you know, 138 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 3: there's that macroeconomic story that I was always banging on 139 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 3: about when I was at the Business countsl But I absolutely, passionately, 140 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 3: deeply believe it. But then I think we've got to say, 141 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 3: have we got the settings right for people getting ahead? So, 142 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 3: you know, housing is the big threshold issue now, you know, 143 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 3: I think we're seeing this huge intergenerational shift where the 144 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 3: principal means of creating wealth is not now available to 145 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 3: many people in this country. So what can we do 146 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 3: about that? Well, you know, lots of people are writing 147 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 3: about lots of people are thinking about it. I've got 148 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 3: my university doing a big piece of work on it, 149 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 3: but it's something to solve. The energy transition is something 150 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 3: to solve in a practical centrist kind of way, where 151 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 3: it's kind of we're doing we're reducing our missions, we're 152 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 3: decarbonizing our economy, but we're being mindful of cost and reliability. 153 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 3: So I think we know the playbook, we know the recipe. 154 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 3: We've just got to get enough willingness to get on 155 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 3: with things. And that brings me to one of the 156 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 3: issues I've been writing about recently, which is lack of 157 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 3: civility in public debate. You know, obviously we've got these 158 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 3: huge issues around anti semitism and hate speech, but at 159 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 3: the same time, we've got as seeming the inability to 160 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:44,839 Speaker 3: for people to kind of throw ideas up without being 161 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 3: shot down or being given a label that immediately kind 162 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 3: of dismisses their idea. That's a very dangerous place to 163 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 3: get good policy work done. You've got to be able 164 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 3: to say, well, what about this and what about that. 165 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:58,959 Speaker 3: We used to have green papers and white papers and 166 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 3: we get big issues sold that way. We don't do 167 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 3: that anymore. And an issue, well, you can see it happening, 168 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 3: and issue gets raised, it'll get killed in twenty four hours. 169 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 3: What I hope? You know, you know it's naive, I 170 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 3: think to say we want an ambitious election agenda because 171 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 3: I don't think that we're going to happen. That's going 172 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 3: to happen. But what I would really implore people to 173 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,599 Speaker 3: do is not take things off the table in a 174 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 3: way that then haunts them in politics where they say 175 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 3: you're never going to do that, Now you're going to 176 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 3: do it, To say, well, let's look at that, let's 177 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 3: have a think about that. And you know, people will 178 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,959 Speaker 3: say that's naive. Maybe it is, but I think you 179 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 3: that it is the right thing to do for the country. 180 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 3: That we're willing to have some debates about tax reform, 181 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 3: about how you make the big changes in education that 182 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 3: really skill the population up, about how we fix the 183 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 3: housing market. Their long term problems. We know they've got 184 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 3: to be fixed, and we know that fixing them will 185 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 3: drive our productivity, which, as my co chair Phil Lowe says, 186 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:57,839 Speaker 3: and he's absolutely right, is how you drive wag yourself 187 00:09:57,880 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 3: and how you drive people's living standards up. 188 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 2: So my last question, what gives you hope? 189 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 3: What gives me hope is that the country is still 190 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 3: the greatest country in the world. In my view, what 191 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 3: gives me hope is that you know Australian people, their character, 192 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 3: their humor, their sense of fairness, which I write about 193 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 3: a lot. That sense of fairness is something that really 194 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 3: dominates the psyche of Australia in a way that I 195 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,959 Speaker 3: think it's kind of unique in the world. This kind 196 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,839 Speaker 3: of fair go concept, I think does actually drive our 197 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 3: institutional settings, our cultural settings, and long may continue. And 198 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 3: I just am always filled with hope when I see 199 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 3: Australians recover from adversity. You know, you see people in 200 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 3: those floods today helping each other out. You know, when 201 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,079 Speaker 3: I was at the Business Council, we did some stuff 202 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 3: around those bushfires where we had this thing called Bisrae 203 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 3: Build which would help small businesses get back up on 204 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,079 Speaker 3: their feet. And you're always struck by the resilience of 205 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 3: people who'd been through something really terrible, but they are 206 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 3: helping their mates out, helping each other out. I don't 207 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 3: see the concept of matship as a masculine thing. I 208 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 3: see it as this great sense of loyalty, friendship and support. 209 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,199 Speaker 3: And I see that wherever I go in Australia, and 210 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 3: you know, I think that sort of Australian fairness and 211 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 3: humor is going to be our greatest strength. And we 212 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 3: have got all of the endowments natural intellectual to be 213 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:25,839 Speaker 3: the greatest country on the planet, which I think we are. 214 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 3: We've just got to seize the moment. 215 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: That was Jennifer Westercott speaking to Caroline Gurney on the 216 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,719 Speaker 1: Twofold podcast from Future Generation. This is a Fear and 217 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: Greed business interview. Join us every morning for the full 218 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 1: episode of Fear and Greed Business to use the people 219 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: to make their own decisions. I'm sure and I alma 220 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: enjoy your day.