WEBVTT - The 'sovereign citizen' ideology behind Australia's most wanted man

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<v Speaker 1>My mood.

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<v Speaker 2>What was your reaction when we started the here reports

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<v Speaker 2>this week that a man, Deisy Freeman, who self identifies

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<v Speaker 2>as a sovereign citizen, had allegedly shot dead two police officers.

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<v Speaker 1>Initially, like everyone, I felt for the families of the

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<v Speaker 1>two police officers and it really highlights the sacrifices our

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<v Speaker 1>first responders make to keep our community safe. But personally

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<v Speaker 1>it was a real shock. Just a week ago I

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<v Speaker 1>was being called alarmist, a fearmonger, and a government propagandist

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<v Speaker 1>for exposing the severity of the sovereign citizen threat. I'd

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<v Speaker 1>like to say I felt vindicated, but to be honest,

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<v Speaker 1>I felt sick.

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<v Speaker 2>Ma mud Fazl is an investigative reporter with four Corners.

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<v Speaker 2>For months, he's been investigating Australia's sovereign citizen community and

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<v Speaker 2>what he's found is a growing movement fueled by distrusting government,

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<v Speaker 2>the law and police overseas. This movement has been designated

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<v Speaker 2>a terror group and experts here are sounding the alarm,

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<v Speaker 2>saying if more isn't done to stop them, more attacks

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<v Speaker 2>like the one allegitly carried out by Desi Freeman are inevitable.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM today

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<v Speaker 2>Mahmud Fasel on the sovereign citizen ideology behind Australia's most

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<v Speaker 2>wanted man. It's Friday, August twenty nine. Where did your

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<v Speaker 2>interests start in all this? My mood tell us about

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<v Speaker 2>how you began looking into this movement, who you met

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<v Speaker 2>and what they told you about what they believe.

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<v Speaker 1>So at Four Corners we were digging around for a

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<v Speaker 1>story and heard of a police shooting in North Morton

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<v Speaker 1>in Tasmania earlier this year.

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<v Speaker 3>Colleagues around the country are tonight morning, a veteran policeman

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<v Speaker 3>shot dead while serving a warrant in rural Tasmania. Comestable

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<v Speaker 3>Keith Smith is being remembered as a dedicated.

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<v Speaker 1>North Morton in Tasmania is a known so pseudo law hotbed.

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<v Speaker 1>We found the shooting that occurred there wasn't inspired by

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<v Speaker 1>sovereigns cities and ideas, But what was striking was that

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<v Speaker 1>everyone who held those sorts of beliefs in the area

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<v Speaker 1>was convinced that it actually might have been one of them.

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<v Speaker 1>They weren't surprised that one of their own might have

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<v Speaker 1>killed a cop. So we started to speak with experts

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<v Speaker 1>and began teasing out how volatile this threat was. We

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<v Speaker 1>met with a group called the Sovereign People's Assembly of

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<v Speaker 1>Western Australia in Perth. It's important to note that they

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<v Speaker 1>say they always come in peace and are nonviolent. They

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<v Speaker 1>believe the government is illegitimate and people should live under

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<v Speaker 1>a natural, God given law that is superior to any

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<v Speaker 1>of the rules that really govern society.

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<v Speaker 4>It loves to put the word authority on all of

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<v Speaker 4>its on the end of all of its departments. It's

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<v Speaker 4>not the authority, it's the public servant. Where the authority,

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<v Speaker 4>the people are the authority working in law.

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<v Speaker 1>And they use what's called pseudo law, which is a

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<v Speaker 1>collection of legal sounding concepts and arguments that have no

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<v Speaker 1>actual basis in law.

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<v Speaker 4>It is simply the architecture between law and legal So

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<v Speaker 4>if again, if we look at our diagram, the sovereign

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<v Speaker 4>lives here in the living in law evidenced by the

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<v Speaker 4>breath that is the ultimate evidence of living breath.

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<v Speaker 1>And they aim their kind of threats towards what they

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<v Speaker 1>see as oppressive government institutions.

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<v Speaker 2>So can we just unpack the word sovereign in particular?

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<v Speaker 2>Why is that the word that is being used here.

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<v Speaker 1>I think in their view people are sovereign. The state

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<v Speaker 1>isn't sovereign, and so they want to essentially bring that

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<v Speaker 1>power back to the citizens.

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<v Speaker 3>Through unconscionable use of the They dog Latin gloss of fraud. Therefore,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm canceling pair of attorney of my legal persons and

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<v Speaker 3>all relevant trade names to the perman domicile of the

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<v Speaker 3>land and sold jurisdiction of Terrestrales.

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<v Speaker 1>So they don't believe in a monarch They believe that

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<v Speaker 1>people should be the sovereigns of the state. And they

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<v Speaker 1>also in Australia play on you know, First Nations struggles

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<v Speaker 1>for sovereignty and argue that you know, sovereignty was never

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<v Speaker 1>seated here and therefore the government shouldn't be shouldn't be

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<v Speaker 1>considered the authority. So there's a lot of kind of

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<v Speaker 1>semantic games being played for different agendas.

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<v Speaker 2>What do you think it draws people like Dizzi Freeman

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<v Speaker 2>into this kind of thinking, into this kind of movement.

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<v Speaker 2>What is it that attracts people like him?

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<v Speaker 1>In my experience from out reporting, it's often people who

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<v Speaker 1>feel as though the law has been unfair to them.

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<v Speaker 1>They've been hard done by the law. So they join

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<v Speaker 1>these groups as a way to convince themselves that they

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<v Speaker 1>were actually in the right, and just because the law

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<v Speaker 1>said they were in the wrong, that wasn't actually the case.

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<v Speaker 1>These are people who might be running from historical sex offenses,

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<v Speaker 1>They might be facing a custodial sentence, they might be

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<v Speaker 1>having their homes repossessed, or they might have just copped

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<v Speaker 1>a fined for not wearing a mask when they were

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<v Speaker 1>told to. So it's that angst or you know, feeling

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<v Speaker 1>as though the law has wronged them and they're trying

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<v Speaker 1>to fight back and convince themselves that actually they're in

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<v Speaker 1>the right. They're beliefs because there's more faith than there

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<v Speaker 1>is fact. They can't be falsified. They're not testable, which

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<v Speaker 1>is why what they're saying isn't true.

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<v Speaker 2>And they are beliefs and our theories and there are

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<v Speaker 2>ways of thinking. But what kind of real world impact

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<v Speaker 2>are these groups having here in Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>In Victoria, sovereign citizen linked groups of overwhelmed local governments

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<v Speaker 1>with petitions and protests, forcing event cancelations and public bands

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<v Speaker 1>at meetings, but they gaining momentum and enacting kind of

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<v Speaker 1>changes through local councils. So in Western Australia, groups have

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<v Speaker 1>pressured over a dozen councils to our state and federal

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<v Speaker 1>governments to consider banning further COVID vaccines. In New South

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<v Speaker 1>Wales and Queensland, another sovereign citizen group has gone as

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<v Speaker 1>far as walking into council offices and police stations declaring

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<v Speaker 1>they no longer hold any jurisdiction. One of the experts

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<v Speaker 1>we spoke to, doctor Joe mcintoe, has just written a

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<v Speaker 1>book on pseudo law and the sovereign citizen kind of phenomena,

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<v Speaker 1>said that these groups are affecting our institutions of law

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<v Speaker 1>and the efficacy of our law, and therefore it's impacting

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<v Speaker 1>upon our society. So there is real world threats and

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<v Speaker 1>all of this is just contextual in the wake of

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<v Speaker 1>what we've experienced over the last few days.

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<v Speaker 2>Coming up how we and bill A shootings changed the

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<v Speaker 2>sovereign citizen movement. Mami. We've heard from both ASIO and

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<v Speaker 2>the Prime Minister and they said that they take the

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<v Speaker 2>threat from sovereign citizens seriously. How does that tell you

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<v Speaker 2>with what you've observed.

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<v Speaker 1>I just hope they start responding to all extremists with

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<v Speaker 1>the same forensic lens, especially when there's precedent globally, questions

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<v Speaker 1>need to be asked. You know, why has the FBI

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<v Speaker 1>classified sovereign citizen extremists as domestic terrorists? And even after

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<v Speaker 1>that classification, just last year there were five separate police

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<v Speaker 1>shootings by these groups in the United States. What's tricky

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<v Speaker 1>for the authorities here is that these groups are connected

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<v Speaker 1>via the Internet and really in tune to how they're

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<v Speaker 1>being perceived abroad. A lot of them don't self identify

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<v Speaker 1>as a sovereign citizen, and there's a lot of disparate

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<v Speaker 1>groups that believe sort of similar things. A lot of

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<v Speaker 1>people prefer the term pseudo law adherent I think, you know, personally,

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<v Speaker 1>that's a bit soft. It seems to be playing into

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<v Speaker 1>what these groups want in a way. They're aware of

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<v Speaker 1>the terrorism label, and many distance themselves from any label

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<v Speaker 1>that might be prescribed as a terrorist. But if we

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<v Speaker 1>look at what their beliefs and aims are and the

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<v Speaker 1>distance they're willing to go to achieve their aims, I

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<v Speaker 1>believe a trend will emerge.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the things that sort of I struggled to

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<v Speaker 2>deal with in your excellent report was the use of

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<v Speaker 2>the term by some of these people using the term genocide.

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<v Speaker 1>Who's got all the guns and it's now time in

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<v Speaker 1>history as a population boom disarmed as they're not being genocide.

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<v Speaker 2>What do they mean by genocide when they're referring to

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<v Speaker 2>their rights.

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<v Speaker 1>I think they quite literally mean a genocide will occur.

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<v Speaker 1>A recurring theme in our conversations with members of these

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<v Speaker 1>groups is this fear of being disarmed. They believe that

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<v Speaker 1>when a government takes the guns of a population away,

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<v Speaker 1>genocide will ensue. I mean, even when I was having

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<v Speaker 1>conversations with these people about their so called whistleblowers, they

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<v Speaker 1>would totally convince that if you stick your head too

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<v Speaker 1>far above the surface and expose these kind of quillanon

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<v Speaker 1>conspiracies about tunnels with children, or being disarmed, or the

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<v Speaker 1>COVID vaccine, or if you're too vocal about these conspiracies,

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<v Speaker 1>you could be executed. And they had a list of

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<v Speaker 1>people who had died as a result of an interaction

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<v Speaker 1>with a police officer, which they interpreted as a kind

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<v Speaker 1>of martyrdom, as a type of execution that had happened.

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<v Speaker 1>For the truth, I found that stuff quite terrifying, and.

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<v Speaker 2>It's easy to look at this police shooting and see

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<v Speaker 2>it as a result of fringe ideology. But how far

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<v Speaker 2>has the movement infiltrate into mainstream politics.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, some of the people we spoke to in

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<v Speaker 1>this movement were actually at one time One Nation candidates,

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<v Speaker 1>or they were launching their own parties. These groups are

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<v Speaker 1>growing in sophistication. They no longer want to create a

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<v Speaker 1>parallel system. They want to dismantle or erode the current

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<v Speaker 1>system as it stands, be that through local councils or magistrates,

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<v Speaker 1>courts or political parties.

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<v Speaker 2>And tragically, this is not the first time a police

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<v Speaker 2>officer has been killed at the hands of someone identifying

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<v Speaker 2>as a sovereign citizen. There was, of course, the win

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<v Speaker 2>Biller murders back in twenty twenty two. What impact did

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<v Speaker 2>the Willi and Bella killings have on the movement in

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<v Speaker 2>the intervening years.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, in the conversations that I had with people, they

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<v Speaker 1>saw that as a targeted execution of a whistleblower. That

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<v Speaker 1>was literally the way that they would explain the wyn

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<v Speaker 1>Billa shootings. They had this conspiracy that one of the

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<v Speaker 1>trains was about to leak a list of names of

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<v Speaker 1>politicians who were involved in sex scandals with children, and

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<v Speaker 1>as a result of that potential leak, they were executed.

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<v Speaker 1>This was a conversation I had repeatedly across the country,

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<v Speaker 1>in Queensland, in Tasmania, in Adelaide, in Western Australia. I

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<v Speaker 1>was hearing the exact same theory. So that's the effect

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<v Speaker 1>that it's had on groups like this. It's heightened the paranoia.

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<v Speaker 1>It's created a more of a distrust and more of

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<v Speaker 1>an anxiety for when the police do come knocking at

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<v Speaker 1>their doors about what might potentially happen.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, the thinking around that, my mood says a

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<v Speaker 2>lot about the alternative reality that so called sovereign citizens

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<v Speaker 2>are living in and the difficulty then not getting them

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<v Speaker 2>to reconsider their belief, does it not.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's exactly right. They're living in this almost alternate reality.

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<v Speaker 1>That's why they say we're not awake yet they're awake.

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<v Speaker 1>They're living in this other world that we haven't yet

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<v Speaker 1>understood or been exposed to or seen the light of.

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<v Speaker 1>But the way in which any move that the government

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<v Speaker 1>makes is interpreted in the worst possible way, and it

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<v Speaker 1>only fractures these interactions that could happen with police people

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<v Speaker 1>are getting more and more paranoid of one another, and

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<v Speaker 1>I think there needs to be some way of creating dialogue.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know how that had happened.

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<v Speaker 2>There seems to be a particular hatred for police amongst

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<v Speaker 2>some of its members. Do you think we're at risk

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<v Speaker 2>of seeing more police being killed or injured on the

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<v Speaker 2>front line as they tried to tackle some of these groups.

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<v Speaker 1>I hope not. I hope not. But all the experts

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<v Speaker 1>we spoke to were deeply concerned about how this group

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<v Speaker 1>was evolving, and looking abroad, there has been an escalation

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<v Speaker 1>of violence. So we can only hope that the police

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<v Speaker 1>tightened their risk assessments when they're approaching these kinds of situations,

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<v Speaker 1>and the Attorney General really considers how to classify these groups.

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<v Speaker 1>We had the Chief Justice of Western Australia highlight the

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<v Speaker 1>concerns we raised in our program the day after broadcast,

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<v Speaker 1>because this is a top concern for the judiciary, and

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<v Speaker 1>now two police officers have been killed. So experts are

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<v Speaker 1>raising their concerns, the judiciaries raising their concerns, the police

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<v Speaker 1>are certainly concerned. The government should listen, look at what's

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<v Speaker 1>happened abroad and assess with urgency.

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<v Speaker 2>Mamie. Thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>Also in the news, there are renewed calls for a

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<v Speaker 2>national fire arm register in the wake of the murder

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<v Speaker 2>of two police officers in Northeast Victoria. Media reports suggests

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<v Speaker 2>that suspected shooter Dessi Freeman were stripped of his gun

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<v Speaker 2>license last year. Labour MP and former Olympic shooter Dan

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<v Speaker 2>Repercoli is urging state and territory governments to come together

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<v Speaker 2>to work on the proposal, and former UK Prime Minister

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<v Speaker 2>Tony Blair has attended a meeting at the White House

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<v Speaker 2>to discuss plans for post war Gaza. It comes as

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<v Speaker 2>Israel launches a new offensive in Gaza City, where approximately

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<v Speaker 2>half of Gaza's two million residents have been living. All

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<v Speaker 2>members of the United Nations Security Council except for the

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<v Speaker 2>United States, this week released a drone statement that famine

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<v Speaker 2>Gaza is a man made crisis, calling for an immediate,

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<v Speaker 2>unconditional and permanent ceasefire. Seven AM as a daily show

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<v Speaker 2>from Solstice Media. It is made by Atticus Bastow, Chris Dangate,

0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:58.040
<v Speaker 2>Daniel James Ruby Jones, Sarah mc v Travis Evans and

0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:01.600
<v Speaker 2>zon vet Jo. Music is by Ned Beckley and Josh

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<v Speaker 2>Hogan of envelop Bordier. We'll be back tomorrow with a

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<v Speaker 2>bonus episode covering a huge week for our national security

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<v Speaker 2>agencies and the politics of it all. See you then,