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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,

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Speaker 1: I had the privilege of sitting down having a chat

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Speaker 1: with former New South Wales Deputy State Coroner Hugh Dylon.

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Speaker 1: I say privilege because Hugh shares a passion very much

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Speaker 1: aligned with what I considered the most important I had

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Speaker 1: as a homicide detective. That was looking after the families

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Speaker 1: of people who have died in the tragic, violent and

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Speaker 1: unusual circumstances, bringing whatever comfort possible to the deceased. Families

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Speaker 1: by providing answers as to what happened to their loved

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Speaker 1: ones and where possible prevent unnecessary deaths. Throughout his career,

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Speaker 1: Hugh presided over more than three hundred inquests, including the

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Speaker 1: horrific School of Happiness case where one man hunted police

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Speaker 1: with a crossbow in the middle of the night during

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Speaker 1: the Hippie festival. He also oversaw murders, suicides, and tragic

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Speaker 1: accidental deaths.

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Speaker 2: As you'll find.

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Speaker 1: Out in our discussion, the coroner's court is filled with sadness.

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Speaker 1: In the motion, Hugh takes us through the cases of

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Speaker 1: the oversaw, how the system can be improved, and the

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Speaker 1: personal impact of dealing with death on a daily basis.

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Speaker 1: Hugh Dylan, thanks for coming on I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 3: It's a great pleasure. Gren very nice to see you again.

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Speaker 1: Well, it is good to see you, and I always

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Speaker 1: I had a lot of respect for the role that

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Speaker 1: you did as a coroner, and you were the deputy

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Speaker 1: state coroner or is a coroner for nine years. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's right, and in prepping for it, I believe that

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Speaker 1: you oversaw probably three hundred roughly three hundred question.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a bit hard to work. It out exactly,

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Speaker 3: but a round about three hundred, I'd.

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Speaker 2: Say, yeah, it's a lot.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think people fully appreciate the impact that

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Speaker 1: the coroner's court has. I found it in all the

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Speaker 1: areas of policing I work. That's when I saw the

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Speaker 1: most emotion at coroner's courts, because you're talking about someone's died.

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Speaker 1: That's generally what the inquest is about. And you've got

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Speaker 1: the families and loved ones there holding on to hope

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Speaker 1: or trying to get answers.

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Speaker 2: Is that how you felt?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, it's a surprising place. It's a surprising niche

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Speaker 3: in the legal system, and most people in the law,

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Speaker 3: most people in society have no idea. But I can

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Speaker 3: remember the first day I went to the coroner's court.

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Speaker 3: I was a new magistrate and I was really surprised

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Speaker 3: by it. Apart from anything else. The coroners were doing this,

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Speaker 3: this kind of work that no other lawyers in our

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Speaker 3: society do. And also they're working in teams and as

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Speaker 3: you say, their concern is or who has died, how

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Speaker 3: they've died, why they've died, but also what can we

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Speaker 3: say to the families and the families My father was

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Speaker 3: a coroner's case himself around about forty years ago, and

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Speaker 3: I remember, I remember very very well getting the news

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Speaker 3: that he died suddenly, and the shock and the confusion

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Speaker 3: that that throws you into. So to walk into this

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Speaker 3: place as a coroner, and to try and grapple with

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Speaker 3: that confusion, the bewilderment, and of course the sadness was

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Speaker 3: somewhat bewildering to me as well. But Garry I really

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Speaker 3: liked being a coroner, and some people would be astonished

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Speaker 3: to hear me say that, I guess, because of course

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Speaker 3: you're right. It is a very sad place in lots

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Speaker 3: of ways. Families are devastated, they're confused, one answers. Sometimes

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Speaker 3: they have interesting theories about how someone they love has died.

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Speaker 3: Some of those theories are right, but some of them

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Speaker 3: are wrong. And it's very difficult to walk people into

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Speaker 3: the evidence and through it and then bring them to

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Speaker 3: some sort of understanding, some sense of what happened. I

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Speaker 3: think some people might call this sense making, you know,

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Speaker 3: how do we make sense of these terrible events.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of expectation when people get to the

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Speaker 1: coroner's court. I saw that over the years with families

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Speaker 1: and it's almost like, Okay, the answer is going to

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Speaker 1: be forthcoming when the matter gets to the coroner's court,

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Speaker 1: and I think meeting the family's expectation or that's a

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Speaker 1: difficult part too, because sometimes the facts don't present the

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Speaker 1: way the family expected it to, and quite often the

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Speaker 1: evidence that is given at a coronial inquest is quite

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Speaker 1: confronting to the families and loved ones of the deceased person.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's right, And although you're always very glad as

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Speaker 3: a coroner if you have found the answers, there are

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Speaker 3: lots of cases where you don't, and you, as a

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Speaker 3: homicide or an ex homicide detective, would be very familiar

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Speaker 3: with some of those cases. You know, there are unsolved

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Speaker 3: homicides as well as you know all the I want

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Speaker 3: to call them happy endings, but they're cases in which

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Speaker 3: there is an answer for people. And to leave people

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Speaker 3: without answers is it's not only very frustrating, but it's

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Speaker 3: also very sad because you can't help empathizing and feeling

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Speaker 3: for them but also with them. You know, if you

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Speaker 3: lose a daughter, you know, I'm thinking about my daughter

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Speaker 3: as I'm talking to you about you losing yours. What

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Speaker 3: a shattering and incomplete kind of sense of life you

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Speaker 3: might have. So, as I say, sometimes you can provide

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Speaker 3: answers and that can give people a sense of resolution.

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Speaker 3: I don't believe there's any such thing as closure. I

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Speaker 3: think that's a false hope.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you say that, and that tells me you

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Speaker 1: understand the situation that families go through. And I got

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Speaker 1: clipped very early in my career when use the word

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Speaker 1: closure to a family and they pointed out very very

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Speaker 1: clear to me, it's not the closure. You never get

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Speaker 1: closure from that. And that's what happens when and it's

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Speaker 1: not always homicide. If someone's I would find that in

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Speaker 1: the courrner's court. Those tragic accidents are hard to deal

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Speaker 1: with too, because I look at homicide and often the

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Speaker 1: families can allocate blame to a particular person. Where there's

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Speaker 1: accidents where there's the fault, like there's built up anger

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Speaker 1: and sadness and that it's nowhere to channel it.

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Speaker 3: That's right, and I think the families of missing people

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Speaker 3: have a particularly onerous load to bear. I guess if

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Speaker 3: you can bury your your loved ones, you can have

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Speaker 3: a sense of not camp or anything like that. But

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Speaker 3: you can say goodbye, but all you have is your

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Speaker 3: last memories of them, and then they disappear off the

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Speaker 3: face of the earth. How do you deal with that?

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Speaker 3: I really don't know, and I never really learned how

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Speaker 3: to how to give people a sense of peace or

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Speaker 3: any sense of forward movement. I think the only thing

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Speaker 3: you can do for people where their loved ones disappear

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Speaker 3: is respect, recognition. You know, we will do our best

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Speaker 3: to find out what happened, but sometimes the answer is

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Speaker 3: beyond reach.

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Speaker 2: That's not there.

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Speaker 1: I saw with families on missing persons cases quite often

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Speaker 1: that I felt like it was a step that helped

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Speaker 1: them in processing what had happened when the coroner would

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Speaker 1: declare the person deceased. Because what I've seen with families

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Speaker 1: and friends of people who have just disappeared, they always

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Speaker 1: hang on to that smidge and of hope that the

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Speaker 1: person's going to walk through the door one day and

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Speaker 1: they're going to yell at the person, go what have

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Speaker 1: you done? And then they're going to give each other

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Speaker 1: a big cuddle and get on with their lives. So

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Speaker 1: I think sometimes they hold on to hope, and quite

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Speaker 1: often I've seen it in cranial inquest where the coroner's

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Speaker 1: declared the person deceased manner and cause might have known,

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Speaker 1: but believe that the person is deceased because of checks

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Speaker 1: that have been done, and I feel like it's a

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Speaker 1: step forward. But the coroner's court I always found the

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Speaker 1: expectations were high by the families. It was a lot

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Speaker 1: of it's built up like if the investigation into the

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Speaker 1: death of someone hasn't revealed the information or the person responsible.

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Speaker 1: Quite often the hope is, well, we'll get the answers

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Speaker 1: at the coroner's court. But that's not always the way,

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Speaker 1: and that must have carried hard on you being a coroner,

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Speaker 1: that the family is steering. But where else do we go?

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Speaker 1: And the sad part is sometimes there is nowhere else

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Speaker 1: to go after the coroner's court.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's very frustrating. And from time to time

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Speaker 3: I think coroners I think they fail people by not

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Speaker 3: saying what they really think. Sometimes, I think, and I've

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Speaker 3: seen this happen, particularly within experienced coroners, they will simply

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Speaker 3: because they know how sad people are and how hard

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Speaker 3: it will hit them. If you say I think your

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Speaker 3: loved one is dead, they say, oh, well, you know

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Speaker 3: the evidence isn't quite sufficient, so maybe they're still soften that. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And I to be honest, I think that does not

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Speaker 3: help people cope with what has actually happened. If someone

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Speaker 3: has disappeared and they've I mean very occasionally people do

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Speaker 3: turn up. I know, we all know that, but it

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Speaker 3: is so rare. It's just once in many, many blue moons.

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Speaker 3: And I think as a coroner you have a duty

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Speaker 3: of care both to the dead in respect to them,

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Speaker 3: but also to the families to be upfront with families

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Speaker 3: and say, the investigation has got this far, we don't

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Speaker 3: know precisely what happened, but your loved one more than

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Speaker 3: likely is dead. We can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt,

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Speaker 3: aps but it's almost certain. So that's all we can do.

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Speaker 2: I think.

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Speaker 1: I think that's kind of false hope. Can be a

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Speaker 1: very cruel thing if false hope is offered out. So

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Speaker 1: I think roll of a coroner and that is quite

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Speaker 1: often the final step for families trying to find out

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Speaker 1: what's happened to their loved one, especially with people who disappeared.

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Speaker 1: Tell us what was your story into becoming a coroner?

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Speaker 2: Ah?

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Speaker 3: Well, I obviously did a law degree in Australia, coroners

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Speaker 3: are lawyers. In New South Bales, they're all magistrates. I

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Speaker 3: did some legal research, I worked for a judge, I

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Speaker 3: worked for the New South Bale's ombudsman, and then I

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Speaker 3: got a job as a Comwealth prosecutor. So I worked

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Speaker 3: for the Commonwealth DPP for a number of years. Then

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Speaker 3: I was appointed a magistrate. Did about twelve years as

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Speaker 3: a magistrate and I was on the point of leaving

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Speaker 3: the magistracy and my friend Mary Durham, who was the

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Speaker 3: new state coroner, heard that I was contemplating leaving and

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Speaker 3: she got in touch with me and asked me whether

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Speaker 3: i'd like to have a go as a coroner. And

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Speaker 3: to be honest, I thought, oh my god, this is

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Speaker 3: so depressing, this kind of work. But I really liked Mary,

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Speaker 3: and she said, well, she said a few flattering things

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Speaker 3: about me, so I found it out to say no

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Speaker 3: to her, to be me very forthros, very forthright. She

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Speaker 3: also is very persuasive, and I thought, okay, well, I've

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Speaker 3: put off going to the bar for six months, I'll

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Speaker 3: go and see what this is like. You know, all

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Speaker 3: experience is good experience, and I really when I got there,

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Speaker 3: I really liked the work, partly because I was working

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Speaker 3: with really good people like Mary. But one of the

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Speaker 3: things i'd really missed as a magistrate was working in

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Speaker 3: a team. And Gary, you know what it's like working

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Speaker 3: in teams most homicide cases.

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Speaker 2: You share the pressure, so the pressure.

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Speaker 3: But it's also sharing ideas and a community, a small community,

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Speaker 3: a team can generate more ideas than a bunch of

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Speaker 3: single individuals, definitely, and so strangely enough, although the work

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Speaker 3: could be very confronting and very sad and saddening, I

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Speaker 3: really enjoyed working with the team of people I was

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Speaker 3: working with. So instead of leaving after six months, I

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Speaker 3: stayed and I just stayed on until basically the chief

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Speaker 3: magistrate said, well, your time's up. You've had enough time

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Speaker 3: here and you're coming back to the local court. And

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Speaker 3: I thought, well, no, I'm not. I like being a coroner.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to be a magistrate anymore. So that's

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Speaker 3: when I.

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Speaker 2: Left, decide to leave.

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Speaker 1: It's funny that you get rotated, or a tap on

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Speaker 1: the shoulder that you've been there too long. I would

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Speaker 1: imagine something in the role of a pathway as a coroner,

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Speaker 1: you'd be learning all the time. Yeah, yeah, you'd be

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Speaker 1: learning how not just the processes in place, but how

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Speaker 1: to deal with families and all that. I could imagine

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Speaker 1: every day you went to work.

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Speaker 3: Look, I think that's absolutely right. And I remember saying too,

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Speaker 3: we had this rotation, three year rotation thing, and I

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Speaker 3: remember saying to the Chief Magistrate, I don't think I

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Speaker 3: was any good at this job until I've been in

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Speaker 3: it for two years, that makes sense. And then so

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Speaker 3: three years I'm just starting really to get good at it.

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Speaker 3: And I thought I wasn't an expert coroner until i'd

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Speaker 3: been doing it for five years. But look, after I left,

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Speaker 3: I've done further study. I've done a PhD, which is

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Speaker 3: a study of then you Saitho's coronial system, and I've

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Speaker 3: learned so much more. So I know that you're absolutely right.

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Speaker 3: Nine years I was learning all the time, and since

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Speaker 3: I left the Coroner's Court, I've been learning even more.

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Speaker 3: So you need to stay in these jobs to get

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Speaker 3: really good at that.

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Speaker 1: Well, it is a specialist field. I would imagine that

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Speaker 1: the role of a magistrate as compared to the role

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Speaker 1: of a current is vastly different.

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Speaker 3: Very very different. A magistrate's job is primarily running small

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Speaker 3: summary trials and sentencing. So some days you sit in

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Speaker 3: a court and sentence people who are pleading guilty to

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Speaker 3: various things. Other days you have hearings. You might do

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Speaker 3: bails and apprehended violence applications and that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 3: After a while, it becomes very repetitious. You'd become to

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Speaker 3: be perfectly honest, I think I was quite a good magistrate.

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Speaker 3: But practice makes perfect and you're doing a lot of practice.

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Speaker 3: So after a couple of years of that, I think

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Speaker 3: I was pretty pretty good at it. After five years

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Speaker 3: of it, I really needed a change, and so I

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Speaker 3: did civil civil cases mainly. And again, it took me

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Speaker 3: about five years before I thought I was experted that,

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Speaker 3: and then the coroner's job came on.

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Speaker 1: Okay, can you explain what the role of the coroner's

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Speaker 1: court is? So I obviously aware of it, but if

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Speaker 1: you could explain to the listeners, because I think there's

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Speaker 1: a misconception on some of the aspects of coroner's courts

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Speaker 1: what their role is.

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Speaker 3: If you could explain, it's death investigation, So if someone

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Speaker 3: dies suddenly or in an unexplained or difficult to understand way,

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Speaker 3: or due to an unnatural cause, accidents, suicide, homicides, these

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Speaker 3: sort of things in our society, and since the twelfth

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Speaker 3: century actually there have been coroners who investigated these sudden,

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Speaker 3: unexplained or unnatural deaths. The coroners are one of the

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Speaker 3: oldest legal institutions in the world and so Australia imported

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Speaker 3: coroners when first Fleet arrived. The first in quest in

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Speaker 3: Australia was in December seventeen eighty eight a convict diet

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Speaker 3: and a inquest was held. And so we've had this

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Speaker 3: two hundred and fifty odd years of people inquiring into

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Speaker 3: how a death came about. And it's a very different

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Speaker 3: process from a criminal trial, as you're well aware.

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Speaker 1: If you could break that down as well, because I

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Speaker 1: think people think sometimes it mata goes to the coroner

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Speaker 1: and the coroner could find this person guilty of in

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Speaker 1: the fence, but that's not the case at all, and

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Speaker 1: that's a whole different set of rules.

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Speaker 3: Well, even if you think a person is guilty of

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Speaker 3: criminal offense, you have no jurisdiction to decide that. That

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Speaker 3: has to be decided elsewhere by that first of all,

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Speaker 3: by the DPP and then by a criminal court. But

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Speaker 3: to go back, what's the process. Well, first of all,

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Speaker 3: I talked about teams. The coroner's seigners work in a system,

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Speaker 3: a coronial system, and it's a multidisciplinary system. You were

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Speaker 3: part of it. I was part of it. Forensic pathologists

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Speaker 3: are part of it. Family counselors, support people, administrators, etc.

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Speaker 3: Are part of it. But the first thing that happens,

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Speaker 3: of course, is that someone reports a death, and that's

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Speaker 3: usually done by police officers. So police might be called

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Speaker 3: to a hospital because someone's diet of injuries or something

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Speaker 3: like that. The doctors will report to the police, the

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Speaker 3: police will report to the coroner, and then there'll be

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Speaker 3: a medical examination. The coroners and the forensic pathologists will

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Speaker 3: decide how to examine the person's body for evidence of

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Speaker 3: the physiological or the medical cause of death. So that's

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Speaker 3: the first stage. Of course. Families are notified and there's

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Speaker 3: a whole process of informing them, which is a shattering event,

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Speaker 3: as I was talking about a little while ago, really

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Speaker 3: shattering event for people. So there's a process of talking

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Speaker 3: family members into this strange process. They may have heard

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Speaker 3: about or may not have heard about, but most of

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Speaker 3: them will never have experienced before. So how do you

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Speaker 3: bring people into that. That's part of it. So we

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Speaker 3: have a team. We had a team at the Corners

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Speaker 3: Court family Support team and the forensic pathologists also had

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Speaker 3: social workers who are dealing with families. Then we have

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Speaker 3: police involved. If the circumstances of a case look like

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Speaker 3: they're unnatural, if the cause of death is looks like

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Speaker 3: it's unnatural, then the police will do an investigation on

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Speaker 3: behalf of the coroners. Sometimes that will look like a

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Speaker 3: homicide investigation, and if it is a homicide, it'll be

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Speaker 3: a very very thorough investigation. If it's an accident, there

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Speaker 3: will also be a police investigation. There may be other

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Speaker 3: experts called in aviation experts or all sorts of people.

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Speaker 3: If someone takes their own life, there will also be

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Speaker 3: a police investigation, and that will be somewhat different from

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Speaker 3: a homicide investigation because clearly, not only has a person

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Speaker 3: whom other people love died taken their own life or

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Speaker 3: apparently so, the family will be so psychologically shaken by

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Speaker 3: this that they need real care. And that's difficult because

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Speaker 3: the first responders will usually be young. Police office is

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Speaker 3: followed by detectives. The detectives are usually much more experienced

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Speaker 3: and have seen terrible things usually, but there are lots

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Speaker 3: of things going on in those scenarios, the shattered love relatives,

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Speaker 3: but also what happens to the young police officers who

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Speaker 3: are possibly seeing these sort of scenarios for the first

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Speaker 3: time in their lives.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned you mentioned the police and what we'll

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Speaker 1: talk further about that later on, but the impact of

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Speaker 1: police because we mentioned at the start the full range

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Speaker 1: of emotions and the heavy emotional toll inquest take. But

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that are affected by it.

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Speaker 1: On the issue of suicides too, they're difficult ones. And

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Speaker 1: I know from earlier because quite often the family don't

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Speaker 1: want to accept that someone's taken their own life, so

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Speaker 1: their minds.

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Speaker 2: Sticking over it.

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Speaker 1: You know, there must be something more to this, so

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Speaker 1: you're dealing with that aspect of it as well.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, it's.

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Speaker 1: Confronting the whole range of things. And then accidents. The

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Speaker 1: purpose of investigating an accident is to find out ways

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Speaker 1: of preventing that accident from occurring. Again, that's something that

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Speaker 1: the coronial process is involved in as well.

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Speaker 3: That's rightight, And although I think we do that quite

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Speaker 3: well in in a lot of cases we only hold

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Speaker 3: about it one hundred inquests a year in the South Bales,

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Speaker 3: but there are eight thousand or roughly eight thousand deaths

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Speaker 3: reported every year, so and around about forty percent of

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Speaker 3: the reported deaths to unnatural causes. So we don't really

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Speaker 3: investigate enough enough accidents, I think to learn all the

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Speaker 3: lessons that could be learned. Ideally, a cronial system should

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Speaker 3: really thoroughly investigate all the accidents that occurred, that fatalities

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Speaker 3: and try and put them into patterns or identify trends

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Speaker 3: so that we can we can pull out life saving lessons.

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Speaker 3: One thing that people don't often think about, and frankly

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Speaker 3: I didn't think about when I was a coroner, but

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Speaker 3: I have thought about since is the economic value of

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Speaker 3: a human life. The Australian government puts an economic value

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Speaker 3: on an Australian life. It's called the value of a

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Speaker 3: statistical life, and that in twenty twenty four it was

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Speaker 3: estimated to be five point seven million dollars and a

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Speaker 3: life year is valued by actuaries at around about two

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Speaker 3: hundred and forty or two hundred and fifty thousand dollars.

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Speaker 3: So investigating thoroughly the causes of accidents should be regarded

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Speaker 3: as an investment in life saving because if we could

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Speaker 3: save more lives, if we could prevent more accidents, then

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Speaker 3: it would be obviously good for the families and the

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Speaker 3: community in general if this human cost wasn't spent or incurred.

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Speaker 3: But there's also a value to the economy. So if

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Speaker 3: you think about it, three thousand unnatural deaths a year,

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Speaker 3: that's possibly fifteen billion dollars just putting it in dollar terms,

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Speaker 3: which is a very crude an unsatisfactory way to put it,

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Speaker 3: but it's really worth looking at. This is not just

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Speaker 3: a lot of grief and a lot of sadness. It's

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Speaker 3: an enormous cost to the society that we live.

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Speaker 1: In that we've lost the life these things like I'll

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Speaker 1: pluck this as an example because it's fairly topical at

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Speaker 1: the moment or current, like eese scooters, when there's a

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Speaker 1: death on an new scooter, we see that these scooters

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Speaker 1: on long foot paths, or the role of a coronario

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Speaker 1: would imagine I'm talking hypothetically here, is if there's a

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Speaker 1: series of accidents in quests, Okay, well how did this accident?

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Speaker 1: There might be recommendations like the helmet recommendation there is

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Speaker 1: an obvious one or not the right on footpaths or

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Speaker 1: certain things that might prevent deaths as well.

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Speaker 2: That's the role of a corona.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and ideally most in quests would result in recommendations

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Speaker 3: to public health and safety officials who would then work

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Speaker 3: through the practicalities of their I mean coroners are not

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Speaker 3: engineers or those sort of things. But a good in

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Speaker 3: quest should bring in experts, experts, that's right. And then

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Speaker 3: and very often families also have good ideas about how

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Speaker 3: to because they've given a lot of thought to how

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Speaker 3: their loved ones have died. They often have good ideas.

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Speaker 3: So in New South Wales, if we could increase the

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Speaker 3: number of cases in which recommendations were produced, or if

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Speaker 3: we could identify more patterns and trends of fatalities and

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Speaker 3: serious injury, then we would have a more effective and

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Speaker 3: more productive coronial system than we have at the moment.

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Speaker 1: Is there any accident you've seen that's really stuck in

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Speaker 1: your mind?

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Speaker 3: Well, one of them is a terrible collision on Sydney

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Speaker 3: Harbor which I spent some weeks inquiring into. Yeah, that

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Speaker 3: was very very interesting.

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Speaker 1: Is that the one where for people were killed.

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Speaker 3: Four people were killed. There were passengers on board a

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Speaker 3: pleasure cruiser which was proceeding from west towards towards Circular Key,

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Speaker 3: and a river cat ferry came out of Circular Key.

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Speaker 3: It was on its way back to the Balmain dockyard.

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Speaker 3: Were at Birthed Yep and right under the harbor bridge

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Speaker 3: on the on the southern side. The boat was run

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Speaker 3: over by the by the ferry.

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Speaker 1: How many people were on the boat, I can't quite remember.

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Speaker 3: I think it was around about nine people.

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Speaker 2: Right, and four.

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Speaker 3: People were killed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what was it about that stuck in your mind,

431
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Speaker 1: that that particular matter.

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Speaker 3: Well, there were a number of things. Really. My council

433
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Speaker 3: assistant and I and my team went out on Sydney

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Speaker 3: Harbor and you know, it took a view as it were,

435
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 3: and we went up that the river with you know,

436
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 3: in a ferry in a river cat. The father of

437
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 3: a young dancer who was killed was representing his family.

438
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 3: He didn't have a lawyer and he was on the

439
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 3: he was on the ferry trying to talk to me.

440
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 3: And one of the one of the difficulties you have

441
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 3: if you're a coroner, as you you can't really talk

442
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 3: to the lawyers and the families in the course of

443
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 3: either taking a view or taking evidence of that sort

444
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 3: of thing. And I could see this poor man really

445
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 3: trying to understand what the hell are these lawyers up to?

446
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 3: You know, why can't I talk to the coroner? And

447
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 3: my council assistant was trying to say, look, the coroner

448
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 3: is very, very interested in what you've got to say,

449
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 3: but we've got certain rules about all of this sort

450
00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 3: of stuff.

451
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 2: So that was one thing just on that.

452
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: It's difficult, isn't it, Because I know I've seen at

453
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: scenes and locations circumstances like that, and the coroner's there

454
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: and you've got the families there or the people that

455
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: have a vested interest in the situation. Obviously they want

456
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: to speak to speak to the coroner, but you can't.

457
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: You've got to have that independence that you're not speaking

458
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: to them directly or on specifics of the evidence.

459
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

460
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 3: Actually, since I've finished as a coroner, I've given more

461
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 3: thought to this, and I wonder whether sometimes coroners might

462
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 3: not be better off at least having a meeting with

463
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 3: the family with representatives or you know, someone to ensure

464
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 3: that you don't make any false promises or cuddle up

465
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 3: if you like, become biased towards families. But I wonder

466
00:30:55,080 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 3: sometimes whether we could do more to show the family

467
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 3: is that we actually care about them as well as

468
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 3: care about finding out what the answer to the question

469
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 3: about how their loved ones died.

470
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 2: It carries a lot, doesn't it.

471
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: If the families know that you care, whether that's a

472
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 1: police officer or a coroner, a legal person or anyone

473
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: that gets caught up in these situations. If there's you're

474
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: showing that you care, that can help the family so much.

475
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 3: Well, I think so, And sometimes not always, but sometimes

476
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 3: after an inquest I would step down from the bench

477
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 3: and I talk to the family. That's after I've given

478
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 3: the decision. And I remember a particular case, I was

479
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 3: doing an inquiry into an inquest into a murder suicide case.

480
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 3: A father who had separated from his wife had taken

481
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 3: his three children off in a car and put a

482
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 3: I won't describe what happened, but anyway, he killed himself

483
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 3: and the three kids. The mother came to the court

484
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 3: and this was I think three years after the murder suicide,

485
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 3: and she was pregnant. She had repartnered since and after that,

486
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 3: and she spoke about how much she missed her children,

487
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 3: and so on and so forth, and I just admired

488
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 3: this woman so much, her courage in not only putting

489
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 3: up with what had happened. And as I said, I

490
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 3: don't think there's any such scene as closure. That she'd

491
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 3: managed somehow to face the world and go forward, and

492
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 3: now she'd repartnered, and now she was bringing new life

493
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 3: into the world. And I just thought, respect, and I

494
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 3: spoke to her and I said, how do you do this?

495
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 3: And she said, look, I'm not going to let this

496
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 3: guy get away with killing my kids. I'm not going

497
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 3: to be crushed by it. I'm not going to allow

498
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 3: him to destroy the life that I had. I'm going

499
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 3: to give new life. And I just thought, Wow, she's amazing.

500
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 3: And very often I saw things like that happen in court.

501
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: I'm sure you took strength and the inspiration from the

502
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: way some of the families conduct themselves. So that's what

503
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: I saw, and I thought where I would often think,

504
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: where do you get that strength, whether you get that

505
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: strength to carry on? And also they can even see

506
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 1: joy in life, like the ability to get through as

507
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: you just described with the mother there, that she's going

508
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: to live a life despite what's happened.

509
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 2: That's right.

510
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 3: And some people are obviously very angry and they never

511
00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 3: really get over their anger. But some people can be

512
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 3: remarkably forgiving. People can make mistakes, and sometimes those mistakes

513
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 3: cause deaths by a mission or commission. So sometimes you know,

514
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 3: for example, nurses or doctors miss clues. Let's suggest a

515
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 3: child is very, very sick and needs some sort of

516
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 3: virgent intervention, and by the time there is an intervention,

517
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:32,760
Speaker 3: it's too late. I remember a case involving a little

518
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 3: boy who died and he'd been seen by well by

519
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 3: the time he died, he had been seen by six doctors.

520
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 3: The last two doctors realized what was happening and tried

521
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 3: to give emergent care, but the four previous doctors thought

522
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 3: he was sick but had a flu or some sort

523
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 3: of viral thing, but he'd get over it anyway. In

524
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 3: the inquest, some of the medical and health practitioners, once

525
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 3: they had finished their evidence, turned and faced the family

526
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 3: and said how sorry they were. But there was one doctor,

527
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,879
Speaker 3: young doctor, and I still feel quite sorry for her,

528
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 3: but she couldn't bring herself to apologize. And I don't

529
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 3: know why not, but I really feel that she lost

530
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 3: an opportunity because the family were very willing to forgive

531
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 3: all these other people who did apologize, and I just thought, gosh,

532
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 3: if you turned and said you were sorry, that this

533
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 3: had really affected you as well. And I'm sure she

534
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 3: was affected, but maybe she got legal advised. You know,

535
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 3: I don't speak. Who knows. Maybe she just couldn't bring

536
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 3: herself to say anything. But I just thought, if you

537
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 3: could turn around and talk to them, I think it

538
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 3: would make both of you, the family and this doctor

539
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,879
Speaker 3: so much happier than they were.

540
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 1: I think you've just encapsulated when they talk about the

541
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: emotion that comes in the corner's court, just with that

542
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: one story that's on the thing that lives are shattered,

543
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 1: and it's about how people move forward. But I think

544
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 1: you might be right, And yeah, saying sorry can often

545
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: be the thing that helps people move forward.

546
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 3: Can I tell you another story ago?

547
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 2: Yeah?

548
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, this one had a happier ending. Really a young woman,

549
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 3: she was nineteen years old. She got very sick. She

550
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 3: was working on a sharing team somewhere in the southwest

551
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 3: of New South Wales and it looked like she had

552
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,240
Speaker 3: a flu. So her boyfriend, who was on the team said,

553
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,879
Speaker 3: go to bed. The sharing team boss was this marry guy.

554
00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 3: Little murry guy said, going like and she just got

555
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 3: sicker and sicker though, and at some point in one

556
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 3: of the breaks, her boyfriend went in and saw him

557
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 3: and thought, oh my god, she's really sick. So they

558
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 3: called an ambulance, but it took nearly an hour for

559
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 3: the ambulance to get there. It was way out somewhere.

560
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 3: They got it to the hospital, but she was very,

561
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 3: very sick, and despite getting urgent attention, she died. We

562
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 3: held an inquest because one of the difficulties was there

563
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 3: wasn't a clear diagnosis of what was killing her, and

564
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 3: we still don't really have an absolute diagnosis actually, but

565
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 3: in any event, we held the inquest and her father,

566
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 3: who was a Victorian farmer, very big man, six foot

567
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 3: four or something, came in and we went through the evidence.

568
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 3: The family was represented by a very good arrister from Victoria,

569
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 3: and I had a very good counsel assistant. You may

570
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 3: know her, Peggy dwy a Silk or so. It's the Victorian.

571
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 3: And one of the great things about this inquest I

572
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 3: thought was that there was no bitterness, and at the

573
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 3: end of the case, I gave my decision and my reasons,

574
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 3: and I explained how you know, what had happened, and

575
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 3: as best we could what the diagnosis we thought was

576
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,919
Speaker 3: most likely to be. Give my decision. I walk off

577
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 3: the bench. I'm sitting in my chambers, and Peggy comes

578
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 3: out and says, Hugh, he come to the come to

579
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 3: the door of the court. So I got up and

580
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 3: I went to the door of the court and we

581
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 3: pulled it out in a little bit and there was

582
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 3: this enormous Victorian farmer with his arms around the little

583
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 3: Marory shearing boss, both in tears, both embracing, and both

584
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 3: so sad, but so happy to have this moment with

585
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 3: one another. They were both they both loved this girl, the.

586
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 2: Mary.

587
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:22,399
Speaker 3: Boss was so devastated by her death. I mean when

588
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 3: he gave evidence, he was just weeping, pouring tears pouring

589
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 3: out of him, very very emotional, as was her dad.

590
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 3: And so there was this moment of cathasis. It doesn't

591
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 3: always happened some you know, some people walk away still

592
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 3: feeling angry or whatever. But this was one of those

593
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 3: moments where thought, today we did something good. And having

594
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 3: spent a lot of time in criminal courts, I can say,

595
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 3: I don't think on a lot of days I ever

596
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 3: walked out of a criminal court thinking today we did

597
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 3: something good.

598
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,760
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, there's not not many people walk out happy

599
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: out of the criminal court. That if the person's convicted,

600
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 1: he or she's angry. If the person gets off, that's

601
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: the police or the prosecution angry.

602
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:12,240
Speaker 2: But the way you've.

603
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,959
Speaker 1: Described that, I can picture it, and that is doing

604
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 1: something good, like.

605
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:17,760
Speaker 2: True.

606
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 3: And it was a moment of grace really, you know,

607
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 3: there's there's very generous hearted men were embracing each other

608
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 3: and owning the loss that they both felt.

609
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:37,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you could imagine the types that you're describing,

610
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: they could bottle it up. But the fact that they

611
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 1: let the emotion go, and you see that quite often

612
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,760
Speaker 1: in the coroner's court. It is it is that emotional place.

613
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: The breakdown of the adversarial system for the criminal courts

614
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 1: and inquisitorial for the inquest. What's the difference in the

615
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 1: way that evidence is allowed into those courts.

616
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:02,760
Speaker 3: Well, the two things rely on different ways of thinking.

617
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 3: So in a criminal trial, one party the prosecutions as

618
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 3: a theory a hypothesis. The hypothesis is you Gary have

619
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 3: murdered me Hugh, you deny that allegation, and either prosecutor

620
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 3: have to try to prove my hypothesis. And I do

621
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 3: that by producing proof which I hope will satisfy people

622
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 3: in the jury beyond a resumal doubt that this is

623
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:42,760
Speaker 3: the only reasonable answer you could come up with. That's

624
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:47,240
Speaker 3: deductive thinking. The other way of thinking is inductive thinking,

625
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 3: which is to say, we look at all this evidence,

626
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 3: which may be scattered and fragmented in different ways, and

627
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 3: we try and come up with a theory. What theory

628
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 3: may sense of all this stuff that we have collected.

629
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 3: So that's theory building or inductive thinking. Now, of course

630
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 3: the adversarial side. There is an adversarial side to inquest

631
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 3: and you've experienced that, and that's where people who have

632
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 3: a different theory or have a particular theory challenge the

633
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,839
Speaker 3: range of theories that have been developed. So current might thinking, okay, well,

634
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 3: the possibilities available for me are suicide, homicide, jumped off

635
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 3: a cliff, fell off a cliff, accidentally, was kidding up

636
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 3: by by by martians and assaulted who knows what. So

637
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 3: there might be a range of possible theories, and some

638
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 3: of the people who have an interest in this it

639
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 3: might be police, or it might be persons of interest

640
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 3: as we call suspects might want to challenge some of

641
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 3: these theories because they don't want the coroner to ultimately

642
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 3: settle on a particular theory that blames them. So there

643
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 3: is a degree of adversarialism in it in it or

644
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,240
Speaker 3: can be in an inquest. But it's all about really

645
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 3: this inductive thinking. What is the most satisfactory theory we

646
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 3: can come up with that explains this death and the

647
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 3: circumstances that surrounded it, And that means you have to

648
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:44,760
Speaker 3: look as carefully as you can at the surrounding circumstances,

649
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 3: and that might mean that you take a wide look.

650
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 1: Does that allow for opinions to come in? Yes, because

651
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 1: rare in the criminal court that you get off your opinion,

652
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 1: but in the coroner's court, quite often opinions the coroner

653
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: takes that account.

654
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 3: Opinions can be very important and they can be quite persuasive.

655
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 3: And also hearsay evidence. So here's some heresay evidence. Obviously

656
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 3: can get into a criminal trial, but only under very

657
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 3: limited circumstances because there are questions about the reliability of

658
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 3: hearsay and of opinions. Juries have to come up with

659
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 3: their own opinion about whether someone's guilty or not. That's

660
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 3: the idea about opinion evidence unless it relates to some

661
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 3: sort of area of X that's beyond common knowledge, etc.

662
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 3: But coroners are running an inquiry, not a trial, and

663
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 3: that's the fundamental difference. And that's what I'm saying inductive thinking,

664
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 3: that's I'm thinking about, what's the question, How do I

665
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 3: answer the question? What's the theory I can come up

666
00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 3: with that answer answers the question question is how did

667
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 3: this person die? How did this death come about? What

668
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 3: explains it? But if we go to a trial, the

669
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 3: prosecution thinks it knows the answer to that, then it's

670
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 3: got to persuade a jury to agree with that answer.

671
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 1: I'm just reflecting back on my first experience at an inquest,

672
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,760
Speaker 1: and I think it was even in my uniform days,

673
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: where a young child, the mother was in the bathroom

674
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 1: and the hair dry fell into the bath. The two

675
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: kids in the bath just toddlers, and one died and

676
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 1: one survived from that. And I remember, and this was

677
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: probably the first sort of situation I've been to like

678
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: that where a brief had to be put together for

679
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 1: the coroner, So we put together a coronial brief. A

680
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: lot of questions were asked by what sort of system

681
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:55,879
Speaker 1: did they have in the fuse box with the electrical work,

682
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:58,919
Speaker 1: wasn't the safety Why didn't the circuit break a trip

683
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: at the time, and think like that long time ago.

684
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 1: But I think some recommendations came on the back of that.

685
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: That's the type of incident that would be bought before

686
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: the coroner.

687
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, And it's the very kind of incident that

688
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 3: should be brought before the coroner because there's obviously if

689
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:26,439
Speaker 3: you explore that scenario thoroughly enough, there are there's real

690
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,240
Speaker 3: potential for saving life in future.

691
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 1: And warning's about electrical appliances near the bath and where

692
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 1: powerpoints are located near the bath.

693
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 3: All of that, and yeah, well I would imagine a

694
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 3: good coroner came up with a number of recommendations, and

695
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 3: no doubt the police, which might have been you Gary,

696
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 3: contributed to that thinking process.

697
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:52,800
Speaker 1: It was I remember it because it was such a tragic,

698
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:55,840
Speaker 1: tragic accident, and that's what it was.

699
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 2: It was an accident.

700
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 1: But whether the accident could have been safeguarded against by

701
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 1: you know, putting things in place or just letting people

702
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: be more aware of the situation. Another one, and I'm

703
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 1: just reflecting on all the different experiences I've had in

704
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 1: a coroner's court. The bower of all matter, you're familiar

705
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 1: with it, and people that have listened to the podcast

706
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 1: would be familiar with it. The murder of Evelyn green Up,

707
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 1: Colin Walker, and Clinton Speedy in nineteen ninety and ninety one.

708
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 1: Over a five month period, a person had been a

709
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 1: charge with one of the murders, went to court and

710
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: the person was acquitted. I became involved in a reinvestigation

711
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: and we just saw that we reinvestigated. We thought we

712
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: had enough information for the matter to go back before

713
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 1: the courts for the other two because the double jeopardy

714
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: legislation wasn't in on the other two matters that a

715
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: person hadn't been charged with, but the DPP knocked it back.

716
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 1: We then went to an inquest and had an inquest

717
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 1: where it was the first time witnesses in regards to

718
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 1: all three matters had provided any form of evidence in

719
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: a court environment because the person that was charged with

720
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: that crime was only dealt with the facts relating to

721
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 1: the murder of Clinton Speedy. We've gone to the inquest.

722
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: The inquest ran over a number of weeks. Everyone gave

723
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 1: evidence and there was opportunities for people to be cross examined.

724
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: On the back of that, I think it was John Abernathy,

725
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 1: was a coroner at the time, made a recommendation to

726
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 1: the DPP that he has reasonable cause that the known

727
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: persons involved in the matter and that all three matters

728
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 1: should be looked together. On the back of that, the

729
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 1: DPP then a little bit down the track, but the

730
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 1: weight that was carried from the inquest and John Abernathy's

731
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 1: recommendations decided to exo fishao, indict diet the person. I

732
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,479
Speaker 1: raise that as an example because that's where I see

733
00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 1: the coronial court working in an investigation. In that gave

734
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,959
Speaker 1: the witnesses the opportunity to give evidence in a court

735
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 1: room environment, and then an assessment could have been was

736
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,240
Speaker 1: made on the weight that could be placed on the evidence.

737
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 1: Is that how you see a coroner's court can be used. Yeah.

738
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 3: And in fact, in New South Wales, if a person

739
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:23,319
Speaker 3: has died and homicide is the suspected cause of that

740
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 3: and death and inquest is mandatory and so yeah, I

741
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,839
Speaker 3: was thinking about this the other day. I'm quite sure

742
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:36,439
Speaker 3: how many homicide inquests I did. It's probably I would

743
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:43,800
Speaker 3: say probably twenty CYCA. In some cases I did refer

744
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 3: cases to the DPP. In other cases we didn't get

745
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 3: far enough. And in fact, the very last case I

746
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 3: did as a coroner was in Newcastle. It was a

747
00:49:55,719 --> 00:50:01,720
Speaker 3: double murder and we we had a person of interest

748
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 3: who gave evidence, but there simply wasn't enough evidence in

749
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 3: my opinion, the opinion of my counsel assisting or the

750
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:18,399
Speaker 3: police investigators to refer to the DPP. An interesting, very

751
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 3: interesting case. Yeah, And you know, you never know. Sometimes

752
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 3: people say things or do things which pushes a case

753
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 3: where the DPP has doubts that the evidence is sufficient

754
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 3: over the line. And so a couple of a couple

755
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 3: of times I referred cases to the DPP after they

756
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 3: had initially decided there wasn't enough evidence. And sometimes they

757
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 3: put people on trial, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they take it.

758
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 3: You know, once they have a look at all the evidence,

759
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 3: they think, ye, that will work or not work.

760
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 1: And I think that's what perhaps the public caren't fully

761
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,919
Speaker 1: informed on that when the coroner maker makes a recommendation,

762
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 1: it's still that's not the end of the story. That

763
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 1: doesn't mean the person's going to trial. The DPP's got

764
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:18,399
Speaker 1: to assess it from a criminal point of view, whether

765
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:21,879
Speaker 1: there's sufficient evidence to warrant charges.

766
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 2: Against a person.

767
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 1: I suppose I lost my faith and I'm sorry to

768
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: say this when you're seeing here as a coroner, very

769
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:32,319
Speaker 1: early in my career, but got it back. Naive young

770
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 1: detective working on a case. It was a brutal case.

771
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 1: A person had been shot with a shotgun and dumped

772
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 1: in the boot of his car, and his car was abandoned.

773
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 1: Locals called the police out. It was a horrendous, horrendous scene.

774
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,840
Speaker 1: It was during the heat wave and the deceased body

775
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 1: was in the back of the boot for five days.

776
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 1: I remember the case well, I remember the post mortem.

777
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: It was a horrendous situation. There was what I considered

778
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 1: evidence a person person of interest. We won't mention the

779
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 1: names or the case. Young detective thinking, this is frustrating.

780
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 1: We know this person has done it, and it was

781
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 1: sort of suggested, let's take the matter to the coroner

782
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 1: and maybe further evidence will be forthcoming. What and I

783
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 1: knew this was a possibility, but it shocked me when

784
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:25,280
Speaker 1: I saw it actually work. In the process, the person

785
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:28,240
Speaker 1: of interest got in the witness box. We had presented

786
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 1: the brief to the coroner. I was excited as a

787
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 1: naive young detective, thinking, Okay, well this is We're going

788
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 1: to watch this person get carved up. He got in

789
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 1: the witness box and he was said, I declined to

790
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: answer any questions on the ground I might incriminate myself.

791
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:45,800
Speaker 1: He got thanked by the coroner and left the court,

792
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:48,840
Speaker 1: and it was sort of my expectations were high, the

793
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 1: family's expectations were. My expectations were high because I was

794
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: naive as the workings of the court. But I thought

795
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 1: there I just lost a little bit of faith in

796
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:02,880
Speaker 1: that that write the silence. I fully understand the concept

797
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 1: of the silence, but a coronial inquest is to find

798
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 1: out what's happened to a person, and this person clearly

799
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: had relevant information about about how this person died, but

800
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 1: was allowed to just say I'm not going to say anything.

801
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 2: What's your thoughts on that?

802
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 3: I have mixed feelings about that from a purely coronial

803
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 3: point of view, Like everybody else, I would like to

804
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 3: hear the story from the person who probably knows most

805
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 3: about it. On the other hand, if there is a

806
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 3: strong case against a known person, I'd be quite reluctant

807
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 3: to force them to give evidence. The reason being that

808
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,400
Speaker 3: if you force them to give evidence, they object, and

809
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 3: then you say no, no, no, you're going to give evidence.

810
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 3: They have to give evidence, and then they talk, but

811
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 3: whatever they say can be used, and it can't be

812
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 3: used in any way at all. So you can't be

813
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 3: used directly against them or indirectly against them, which is

814
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:16,400
Speaker 3: even worse. So if you force someone to speak, my

815
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 3: view was that you run the real risk of jeopardizing

816
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:25,319
Speaker 3: what may be a strong case at trial, because they'll

817
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 3: be able to say, oh, well, the cops went and

818
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 3: got this evidence.

819
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 1: It's not just the evidence that provided can't be used.

820
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:34,759
Speaker 1: It's a flow on, that's right.

821
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 3: All the evidence that is obtained indirectly as a result

822
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:41,880
Speaker 3: of them speaking is inadmissible.

823
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure you are for me with the Matthew

824
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 1: Levison cases and that was an interesting I found that

825
00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 1: an interesting case for a whole range of reasons. But basically,

826
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:58,279
Speaker 1: and we've had Mark and Faye on the podcast, so

827
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:03,839
Speaker 1: people have probably heard talk about the situation. Matthew disappeared.

828
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: He'd been out Saturday night at Oxford Street in Sydney

829
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 1: with his partner and disappeared. The partner was eventually circumstances

830
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 1: around the disappearance was a bit strange. They've waken up

831
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 1: and that Matthew's gone and the partner got on with

832
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 1: his life. And then Mark and fayr initi when they

833
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:28,720
Speaker 1: were contacted by Matthew's employer he hadn't turned up for work.

834
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 1: They went to the police and reported that Matthew missing.

835
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:36,359
Speaker 1: There was an investigation and I can say the name

836
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 1: that he hasn't been convicted of the murder, but it's

837
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 1: all public record. Michael Atkins, he's partner at the time,

838
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 1: was charged with murder. A murder trial was conducted, and

839
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 1: we should note that Michael Atkins was acquitted of murder

840
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:52,880
Speaker 1: and manslaughter in two thousand and nine. So Mark and

841
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 1: Fayer left in and I'm sure you'd understand the situation.

842
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 1: Left in this horrible situation where they've okay, they've put

843
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 1: their faith in the justice system, it's gone the court

844
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 1: and then what have we got. Well, we've got no

845
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 1: answers because we've been told that this person wasn't responsible

846
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:13,440
Speaker 1: for son's son's murder by the court during the trial

847
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 1: I became involved in it. They spoke to me and

848
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 1: we looked at okay, we could go to a cranial

849
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 1: inquest because and I think the representations they made to

850
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 1: the coroner were we put our faith in the justice

851
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 1: system as in the court system. We still don't have

852
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 1: answers for our son. Can we have a corannial inquest?

853
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 1: And on the back of that, there was a decision

854
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:39,759
Speaker 1: that an inquest would be held. There was a lot

855
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 1: of layers to it, but it got to the point

856
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,360
Speaker 1: where I was satisfied from a homicide to take this

857
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 1: point of view that we'd taken the investigation as far

858
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 1: as we possibly could. There was not going to We'd

859
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 1: gathered all the evidence of available evidence, so there wasn't

860
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:57,200
Speaker 1: an opportunity because double jeopardy legislation had come in by

861
00:56:57,200 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 1: that stage. There wasn't going to be an opportunity to

862
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 1: reach uge because we hadn't gathered fresh and compelling evidence.

863
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 1: So then a bit of a conundrum. And you know,

864
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:10,320
Speaker 1: Mark and Fay would on weekends go look for Matt's body.

865
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:12,680
Speaker 1: They were desperate to get Matt's body back. And I

866
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:15,759
Speaker 1: still remember having the conversation with them about what do

867
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 1: you hope to achieve from the inquest? And I think

868
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 1: it was Elaine Truscott was the coroner and very very

869
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 1: considerate of everyone's feelings and the appropriateness of the whole

870
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 1: way the matter has been run. And the decision was

871
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:34,400
Speaker 1: made to give Michael Atkins a Section sixty one certificate

872
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 1: so that he could and when the listeners hear this,

873
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 1: they think this is ridiculous. But he could have got

874
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 1: in the witness box and said, yes, I murdered Matthew

875
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 1: Levison and this is how I did it, and that

876
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 1: we couldn't use that evidence.

877
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 2: But that's the.

878
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 1: Deal that we made a lot of processes that we

879
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 1: had to go through to do that, and it was

880
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 1: contested at court and Michael Atkins's defense were doing a

881
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 1: great job in protecting them. Eventually a decision was made

882
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 1: that he could give evidence with a section sixty one certificate.

883
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 1: He purjured himself whilst giving evidence in the witness box

884
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 1: for a week trying to answer questions and dodge around,

885
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 1: and then he was given the indemnity from the Attorney

886
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 1: General if he took us to Matthew Levison's body, which

887
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 1: he did. That's using an inquest in a way that

888
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 1: I don't think those said the circumstances would present themselves

889
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 1: very often. I know there was some sort of pushback

890
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 1: on people thinking, oh, well, are we really usurping the

891
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:38,680
Speaker 1: person's right to silence? To me, I felt that it

892
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:41,920
Speaker 1: was the right thing to do. I think Mark and

893
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 1: Fay have got their son's remains back. No one's been

894
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:48,959
Speaker 1: charged with the murder. I'm just interested in to getting

895
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 1: your thoughts because I know it caused some different opinions.

896
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 1: I won't say controversy. Everyone wanted to see it resolved

897
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 1: in some way. What's your feelings on that?

898
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, and I've talked to various people about this.

899
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 3: Some people I know and respect, some lawyers I know

900
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:14,240
Speaker 3: and respect very much don't like it at all, for

901
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 3: the very reasons you've just explained that it seems to

902
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 3: run against the ethos of our criminal justice system. On

903
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 3: the other hand, I couldn't help feeling for the Leveson

904
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:31,919
Speaker 3: family to be honest, to get their son's body back,

905
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:35,120
Speaker 3: to be able to bury him, to at least get

906
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 3: some idea of what actually happened to him. I think

907
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:48,040
Speaker 3: was worth the cost. In that particular case. There's are

908
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 3: very rare circumstances, and I don't think the principle that

909
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 3: people are concerned about of protecting people's right to silence

910
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:02,560
Speaker 3: is in any way undermined, and in fact, in some

911
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:09,160
Speaker 3: ways it's strengthened, I suppose, because it's shown that if

912
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 3: you if you force someone to speak against the against

913
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 3: their own interests, to tell the truth, in other words,

914
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:21,080
Speaker 3: then there is a price to pay for that. And

915
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 3: you know, when you when you go back and think

916
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:27,240
Speaker 3: about the right to silence, it goes back to the

917
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 3: days when if you were found guilty of an offense,

918
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 3: you were hung for it. So obviously there had to

919
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 3: be some protection against people being hung on the evidence

920
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 3: that came out of their own mouths. You know, that's

921
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 3: torturing people, really, one way or the other. So I

922
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 3: fully support the right to silence, and you know, would

923
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:53,360
Speaker 3: always do that, but I think in this particular case,

924
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:57,440
Speaker 3: and I really respect Elane, trust God as well as

925
01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:00,680
Speaker 3: a human being, as well as as well as a coroner,

926
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:03,280
Speaker 3: I think she made the right decision.

927
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a difficult one.

928
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:09,800
Speaker 1: I suppose even though a precedent has been set like that,

929
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 1: it hasn't opened the floodgates because it was such a

930
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 1: rare combination of circumstances requiely and it's one that yeah,

931
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 1: I won't say sleepless nights, but there was a lot

932
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:24,480
Speaker 1: of thought that went into that, and there was a

933
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:27,960
Speaker 1: lot of counterviews and different things. But the safeguards were

934
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 1: put in two and his defense team pushed it as

935
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 1: hard as they could on defending his right to avoid

936
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 1: giving evidence in those circumstances. But look, I feel satisfied

937
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:42,680
Speaker 1: by it. I think the system worked. It was a

938
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 1: different way of approaching the system, but the system worked

939
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 1: in that regards.

940
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 3: And you'd know from your general career as a police

941
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:55,640
Speaker 3: officer too that sometimes for the law to work, you

942
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:59,320
Speaker 3: have to give people who have done bad things and

943
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 3: indemnine tea for the greater good. Yeah, it's a utilitarian concept,

944
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 3: I know. But you know, when I was at the

945
01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 3: come of DVP, we're quite often we did indemnify people

946
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:16,120
Speaker 3: who would give up major drug importers and so forth.

947
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 3: So you know that was that was the price you

948
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:19,680
Speaker 3: paid for the evidence.

949
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:23,400
Speaker 1: It's a necessary tool, and I break when there's a

950
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:26,479
Speaker 1: different narrative or different discussions on what should be done.

951
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 1: And with the leves and matter I said, okay, well

952
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 1: the option is we don't do that, but we're not

953
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:35,320
Speaker 1: going to find out where Matt's bodies, So.

954
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:37,959
Speaker 2: What are we risking here?

955
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 1: Like it's we ever just just pack up our tools

956
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 1: and go home.

957
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 3: But you're right anyway, Gary, that the floodgates have not opened.

958
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I saw.

959
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:52,640
Speaker 1: I saw that and many a debate and discussion in

960
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:55,920
Speaker 1: parliament with the double jeopardy legislation when that came in,

961
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:58,680
Speaker 1: and that was on the back of the bearable thing.

962
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:03,160
Speaker 1: People we know about it. In summary, if you'd been

963
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 1: acquitted of a crime before the double jeopardy legislation came in,

964
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:10,200
Speaker 1: you couldn't be retried. So again the analogy at the extreme,

965
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 1: you could be acquitted of murder, walk out on the

966
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:14,520
Speaker 1: steps of court and say I did it, I got

967
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:17,480
Speaker 1: a way of it, and we couldn't charge that person.

968
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 1: The double jeopardy legislation came in, and there was a

969
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:24,440
Speaker 1: lot of pushback about that. I was involved from the

970
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:27,240
Speaker 1: Bowable point of view, using it sort of as a

971
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 1: test case and the world the sky was.

972
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 2: Going to fall.

973
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:36,000
Speaker 1: The naysayers that didn't want the want this legislation come in.

974
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:38,320
Speaker 1: If this comes in, it's going to turn our legal

975
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:42,160
Speaker 1: justice system upside down. I think to this day the

976
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:45,440
Speaker 1: legislation still hasn't been acted upon, but it's in there

977
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:48,960
Speaker 1: as a safeguard if circumstances happened in bearable so.

978
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:53,280
Speaker 3: And the you would hope would be very careful in

979
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:57,600
Speaker 3: any event. Yeah, you know, you wouldn't want people being

980
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 3: dragged up from years and years and years ago with

981
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:06,760
Speaker 3: some sort of weak evidence. You're right, it has to

982
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:11,560
Speaker 3: be very compelling. Is compelling, it's a very high state.

983
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:13,520
Speaker 2: It's a high high standard.

984
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:16,400
Speaker 1: And look, I understood there was an argument there that

985
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:20,680
Speaker 1: it would allow and it was fresh and compelling evidence,

986
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:22,440
Speaker 1: and it's got to be in the interest of justice,

987
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 1: and it had to be an offense that carries a

988
01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:27,840
Speaker 1: minimum of twenty years. There was a lot of things

989
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:30,160
Speaker 1: that went into it, but I understood. One of the

990
01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:34,240
Speaker 1: arguments I understood was it would allow police or investigators

991
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:37,600
Speaker 1: to do a half hearted job the first time, and

992
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:39,600
Speaker 1: if they lost the trial, I will do it properly

993
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 1: this time. And I could understand that concept that that sloppiness,

994
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:47,960
Speaker 1: but it clearly hasn't come into play. But yeah, they're

995
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:52,360
Speaker 1: interesting thoughts on the way justice can be approached.

996
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 2: When we get back.

997
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:55,320
Speaker 1: We might take a break now, but when we get back,

998
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:57,040
Speaker 1: I want to talk about some of the cases that

999
01:04:57,080 --> 01:05:02,000
Speaker 1: you've overseen, some very seen cases and your reflections on

1000
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:06,600
Speaker 1: those cases and something that you're very passionate about, and

1001
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 1: full credit to you.

1002
01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:09,360
Speaker 2: I support what you're.

1003
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:13,760
Speaker 1: Trying to do in how we could make the crannial

1004
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 1: process or the Coroni's court a better place, because I

1005
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 1: know you've been doing a lot of work on that

1006
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:19,919
Speaker 1: since you've left.

1007
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have Okay, great

1008
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:23,640
Speaker 2: Okay, we'll be back soon.