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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with Amanda Knox.

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Speaker 1: What an incredible person Amanda is. Now, if anyone has

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Speaker 1: the right to feel fucked over, it's Amanda. What she's

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Speaker 1: been through is unimaginable. In this part, we find out

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Speaker 1: how upon her at least from prison, life didn't just

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Speaker 1: return to normal. She was retried for the murder, and

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Speaker 1: the process took another four years before she was finally free.

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Speaker 1: Upon her release, she got a sense of the media's

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Speaker 1: interest in the story and the impact that that had

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Speaker 1: on her day to day life. But importantly, Amanda explains

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Speaker 1: how she came to terms with what happened to her,

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Speaker 1: how it changed her, the friendships that she has formed,

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Speaker 1: and the important work she's doing with the innocence programs.

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Speaker 1: Haven't listened to what Amanda has to say. It taught

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Speaker 1: me a lot about dealing with setbacks we all experience

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Speaker 1: in life, and I am definitely a fan of how

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Speaker 1: she goes about her business. Amanda Knox, Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: part two of I Catchkillers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me now.

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Speaker 1: I've got all my notes here, but I'm going off

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Speaker 1: script a lot because I just find it fascinating and

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Speaker 1: it's great that you can sit here and smile, and

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Speaker 1: I can smile, and I think, well, my perspective comes

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Speaker 1: from seeing that have been called up in horrible situations,

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Speaker 1: and you've certainly been called up in the horrible situation.

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Speaker 1: But the fact that you can still small is impressive

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Speaker 1: because you had every right to be bitter and twisted.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm just grateful to be alive right now.

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Speaker 3: Like again, you know, I came this close to being,

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Speaker 3: you know, potentially murdered, like if I hadn't been spending

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Speaker 3: the night with my boyfriend, who knows what would have happened.

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Speaker 3: And so as much as like this has been a

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Speaker 3: really traumatic situation, it does not escape me ever, that

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Speaker 3: of the two of us, you know, me and Meredith,

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Speaker 3: like I got I was one who got to go home.

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Speaker 3: And so it's it's very a precious thing to be alive.

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Speaker 3: I'm grateful for it, and I'm grateful for the opportunity

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Speaker 3: it gives me to live and to find joy and

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Speaker 3: to find purpose. So I'm not going to complain about anything.

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Speaker 1: Well, I want to talk a lot more on the

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Speaker 1: philosophical side of the side of the things a little

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Speaker 1: bit later in the podcast, because I do find it

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Speaker 1: fascinating and the innocent program that you've got yourself involved in.

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Speaker 1: And we've had people on this podcast over the years

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Speaker 1: that have been wrongfully convicted and spent time in prison.

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Speaker 1: There was one particular guest I don't know you might

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Speaker 1: have come across in American Evaristo Sales, who spent incredible

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Speaker 1: story sixteen charge of murder put in one of the

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Speaker 1: toughest prisons in California. I think he spent what was it,

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Speaker 1: twenty years in prison for a crime he didn't didn't commit,

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Speaker 1: went in as a sixteen year old kid that the

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Speaker 1: prison uniform wouldn't even fit him, managed to get through it,

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Speaker 1: and when we were interviewing him, I just I don't

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Speaker 1: think I've said two words during the whole course of

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Speaker 1: the interview because he was just telling his story and

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Speaker 1: I was just gobsmacked been through. But we were recording

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Speaker 1: from the bedroom set up like a sixteen year old's

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Speaker 1: bedroom because the twenty years his parents kept the bedroom

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Speaker 1: for him and that's where he was living after he

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Speaker 1: got in the prison. But talk about a good outlook

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Speaker 1: on life. I walked away and I felt like I've

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Speaker 1: been sitting down with the Dalai Lama the way that

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Speaker 1: T was could process what had happened to him and

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Speaker 1: how he's going to make the most for most of

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Speaker 1: his life following that. So harsh experiences can sometimes it

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Speaker 1: can be the make or break, and it's the way

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Speaker 1: you choose to accept it, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely, I mean I'm not going to sit here

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Speaker 3: and say that I would wish that or my experience

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Speaker 3: on anyone else, right, Like, there's no guarantee that you're

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Speaker 3: going to come out of that experience a stronger or

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Speaker 3: better person. In fact, it really is that the chips

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Speaker 3: are stacked against you, and it takes a very specific

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Speaker 3: kind of perspective that allows you to overcome the grief

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Speaker 3: and the loss. Like I think, I think one of

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Speaker 3: the things that is really hard to describe about being

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Speaker 3: wrongly convicted and spending a long time in a very

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Speaker 3: punishing environment as a result of being wrongly convicted is

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Speaker 3: it's not like you have post traumatic stress disorder from

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Speaker 3: a single isolated incident. It's like there's this whole period

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Speaker 3: of your life that is just a traumatic period of

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Speaker 3: survival and injustice. And that's just like your every waking

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Speaker 3: moment is tainted by this injustice that you are stuck

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Speaker 3: with that can plunge you into the deepest depths of

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Speaker 3: like despair and madness. Or you can approach that despair

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Speaker 3: and you can grieve for yourself and you can say

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Speaker 3: to yourself, well, but this is my life, Like this

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Speaker 3: is my life to live, and I still get a

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Speaker 3: say in how I live it and what becomes of me.

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Speaker 2: And I think that I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I mean, for me, I have met a lot of

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Speaker 3: wrongly convicted people who have also had that same surprisingly

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Speaker 3: positive outset, And I wonder if it's because, like just

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Speaker 3: the fact of living with an injustice for a long

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Speaker 3: time and not having it come to any kind of

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Speaker 3: resolution for a long time allows you to sit really

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Speaker 3: get like it's a practice of sitting with the discomfort

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Speaker 3: of uncertainty, and it forces you to position yourself in

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Speaker 3: your own mind so that you are not just utterly helpless,

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Speaker 3: like that you can make choices. It's a weird like

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Speaker 3: catch twenty two of being denied fulfillment and purpose is

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Speaker 3: you sort of make your own and you do the

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Speaker 3: best with what you have. And you know, I to

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Speaker 3: this day feel like I'm so lucky I'm not a

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Speaker 3: man and I wasn't sent to a man's prison because

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Speaker 3: it's so much more violent and the sexual violence is

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Speaker 3: even worse than men's prisons and women's right, like women

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Speaker 3: are not typically raping each other in prison, you know, so,

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Speaker 3: like I definitely had bad encounters with male guards, but

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Speaker 3: like I never was facing the terrible, horrific things that

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Speaker 3: a sixteen year old boy is going to face.

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Speaker 1: I've spoken to quite a few people we had a

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Speaker 1: lot of high profile journalists and people in this country

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Speaker 1: locked up in the Mea mar There was Sean Turnell

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Speaker 1: and economists. It was locked up in Mehama for crimes

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Speaker 1: that he didn't commit. Peter Grest locked up in Egypt.

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Speaker 1: He was a journalist. Chung Lay who was locked up

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Speaker 1: in She was a journalist locked up in China. You

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Speaker 1: wouldn't believe what she went through. And Kylie Moore Gilbert

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Speaker 1: locked up in Iran. She was an academic. I had

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Speaker 1: them on in like a probably over a twelve month period,

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Speaker 1: and I walked away from each and every one of

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Speaker 1: them going Wow, where did you get that insight? So

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Speaker 1: there's something for it, but you explained it nicely there.

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Speaker 1: It could work to let you get through it if

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Speaker 1: you survive it, but it could also change your There

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Speaker 1: was something in your book that while we're on this

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Speaker 1: subject to talk about that, you posed a question to

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Speaker 1: yourself in your latest book Free, Could they ever be

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Speaker 1: anything more than the girl accused of murder? Would they

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Speaker 1: ever be free? And then you make reference to trying

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Speaker 1: to answer those questions lead to you to studying Stooism

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Speaker 1: and Zen Buddhism and researching resilience and post traumatic stress.

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Speaker 1: And from those studies and your own self reflections, you

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Speaker 1: came to acceptance that pain is inevitable, but suffering is

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Speaker 1: a choice. Can we just expand on that a little bit?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yeah, So, oh yay, we're going to talk philosophy.

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Speaker 4: Yay.

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Speaker 2: I love that. I thank you for that opportunity.

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Speaker 3: So the difference between pain and suffering to me is

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Speaker 3: that pain is what you experience, Like, I'm not the

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Speaker 3: type of person who is going to say that there's

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Speaker 3: nothing good or bad right Like you stub your toe,

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Speaker 3: you feel pain. You you know, you lose your friend

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Speaker 3: in a car accident, You have pain, Like there are

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Speaker 3: things in life that cause us pain, that cause us grief.

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Speaker 3: Suffering is when we impose a I had a layer

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Speaker 3: of pain on top of the pain that we are

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Speaker 3: already experiencing by sort of denying the reality of pain itself.

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Speaker 3: So when we say to ourselves, I shouldn't have stubbed

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Speaker 3: my toe, like you already stubbed your toe, and now

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Speaker 3: you're causing yourself extra grief by thinking that the world

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Speaker 3: should have been otherwise, that your toe shouldn't have been

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Speaker 3: you know, stubbed, that you didn't get in the car,

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Speaker 3: you're compounding upon the pain, and I think that it

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Speaker 3: truly it was an amazing insight for me in prison

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Speaker 3: to come to the realization that absolutely I had never

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Speaker 3: envisioned for myself being imprisoned for a crime that I

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Speaker 3: didn't commit. Right, Like, that was a terrible, painful thing

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Speaker 3: that was happening to me. But also if I was

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Speaker 3: stuck just being bitter and angry over the fact that

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Speaker 3: my life wasn't the life that I had hoped for,

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Speaker 3: that was not actually assisting me and serving me in

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Speaker 3: the process of living the life that I actually had,

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Speaker 3: right And I feel like that is a danger that

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Speaker 3: we all can fault prey to. Is really causing ourselves

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Speaker 3: more pain and despair than necessary, and that gets in

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Speaker 3: the way of us effectively living our life by being

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Speaker 3: becoming fixated on the life that we should have lived

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Speaker 3: as opposed to the life that we are actually living.

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Speaker 1: It's a simple philosophy, but sometimes the simple things are

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Speaker 1: are the best way to look at things. I draw

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Speaker 1: on a couple more things from your book while we're

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Speaker 1: on this subject. This is this is another quote in

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Speaker 1: your book from that great philosopher Amanda Knox, where she

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Speaker 1: states I.

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Speaker 3: Quote myself in my own book like what is wrong

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Speaker 3: with me?

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Speaker 1: To be free is to be powerful, and if your

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Speaker 1: power is kindness, you're always free. No one can stop

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Speaker 1: you from being kind? Can we expand on that from

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Speaker 1: that great philosopher? What's your interpretation?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well think about it. Can anyone stop you from

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Speaker 3: being kind? Like? There are a million ways that you

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Speaker 3: can feel thwarted in your own life, And especially as

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Speaker 3: I approached the prospect of trying to confront my prosecutor

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Speaker 3: trying to confront the people who had harmed me, it

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Speaker 3: occurred to me that if I was waiting on somebody

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Speaker 3: else to do justice by me, to show me the

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Speaker 3: kindness that I deserved, that I didn't get, that was

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Speaker 3: first of all, a losing mission, because that made it

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Speaker 3: so that my well being depended on other people, and

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Speaker 3: it rendered me helpless. Like once again, I'm just helpless.

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Speaker 3: I'm waiting for somebody to recognize that I didn't do

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Speaker 3: a bad thing. I didn't deserve a bad thing to

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Speaker 3: happen to me, and that for someone to say they're

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Speaker 3: sorry or something, or I can figure out what I

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Speaker 3: have in me to give. And I looked genuinely in myself,

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Speaker 3: and I was like, you know what, if I really

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Speaker 3: am honest with myself, I feel compassion for these people.

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Speaker 3: I don't just hate them. I genuinely want to understand them.

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Speaker 3: And I have found that genuinely understanding somebody requires you

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Speaker 3: to become close with them, requires a kind of intimacy,

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Speaker 3: and a sort of inevitable byproduct of intimacy is compassion

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Speaker 3: at the very least. I have found that, and the

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Speaker 3: way that I know how to express my compassion those

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Speaker 3: feelings is through kindness and like, who's gonna stop me?

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Speaker 3: No one, No one can stop me, like from being nice.

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Speaker 3: There's there's real freedom in that, and feeling like what

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Speaker 3: is the what is this thing that I can do

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Speaker 3: that I really have in me that no one can

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Speaker 3: stop me from doing? That was a truly coming into

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Speaker 3: myself and really allowing, like coming out of that feeling

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Speaker 3: of helplessness and really feeling fulfilled and embodied.

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Speaker 1: I can I can see how it works. I honestly can.

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Speaker 1: In fact, after I read that passage in the book,

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Speaker 1: I was out in my garden. That was a beautiful

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Speaker 1: summers morning, I trained, I was feeling good about life,

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Speaker 1: hosing the plants, I think because I'm in conflict with

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Speaker 1: quite a few people for different things, and I think

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna let it go and show kindness. And

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Speaker 1: it was going well as I'm there, and then I

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Speaker 1: got to a couple of people and I thought, no,

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Speaker 1: fuck that, Well, you're.

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Speaker 2: You're on your journey.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, forgive this, forgive that. Yep, No, that's good,

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Speaker 1: my mistake. And I was feeling all generous, and then

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Speaker 1: I got the certain people and I thought, nah, but

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Speaker 1: I'm working on that.

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Speaker 3: Well. And you know what, Like it's interesting that you

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Speaker 3: say forgive, like I forgive this, I forgive that. Like

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Speaker 3: I didn't really set out to forgive anybody, Like I

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Speaker 3: didn't have some high aspirational idea of forgiving people. I

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Speaker 3: wanted to understand people. But like again, it was sort

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Speaker 3: of forgiveness sort of creeps up on you when you realize, truly,

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Speaker 3: truly realize the fragility of another human being. So that's

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Speaker 3: where like forgiveness kind of creeps in the back door,

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Speaker 3: when you realize that everyone is a toddler and doesn't

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Speaker 3: know what they're doing, and like even when they think

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Speaker 3: they know what they're doing, they're driven by impulses that

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Speaker 3: are not fully in their control, and you just go,

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Speaker 3: I just gotta, I don't know, I just gotta. I

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Speaker 3: can hold that gently even if if I you know,

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Speaker 3: it's not okay. It doesn't mean that you tolerate ye

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Speaker 3: bad behavior, but.

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Speaker 1: It is something that you can control. And I was

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Speaker 1: listening to your podcast that you do with your husband,

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Speaker 1: Chris Labyrinth, and I think it was one of the

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Speaker 1: early ones, and you were talking about when he stuffed

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Speaker 1: up or something. You two were fighting, and one of you,

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Speaker 1: I forget which one it was, was saying, well, how

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Speaker 1: would you treat your young child if they had made

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Speaker 1: the mistake? And so you're treating Chris like a young child.

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Speaker 1: Not in a condescending way.

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Speaker 2: But no, not in a condosce anyway.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, okay, it made the mistake. How would I

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Speaker 1: react if a child did that? Well, I'd say, well

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Speaker 1: you shouldn't have done that and explain it. I thought, again,

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Speaker 1: that was a simple, simple philosophy. It made me laugh.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean, I gotta say, ever since becoming

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Speaker 3: a mom, and especially being a mom of toddlers, I

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Speaker 3: have found that just going into mom mode with everyone,

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Speaker 3: which is a kind of like it is a universal

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Speaker 3: sort of accepting love. It's still like firm and setting boundaries,

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Speaker 3: but it's not there to punish anybody. It's just there

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Speaker 3: to like hold them in their imperfection.

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Speaker 1: We finished part one talking about the police investigation, and

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Speaker 1: I think the way I'd like to describe it is

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Speaker 1: my observation of it, and certainly things that you've been

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Speaker 1: documented in saying, is the facts didn't support any conviction

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Speaker 1: of yourself and Raphael. In regards to the murder, you

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Speaker 1: spent four years in prison before the conviction was overturned.

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Speaker 1: Your release from prison, then the prosecution decided to appeal

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Speaker 1: the acquittal and you had to face trial again. So

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Speaker 1: I just we're jumping around, but there's so many fascinating

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Speaker 1: parts to your story. After your release from prison, you've

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Speaker 1: been acquitted, you thought, Okay, I've been through the worst

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Speaker 1: moments of my life. I can now get on with

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Speaker 1: my life. But when you were released from prison, the

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Speaker 1: world had chiged, you had changed, and things weren't that simple.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk us through that?

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Speaker 3: When I was in prison, I really felt what it

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Speaker 3: felt like for me was that I was living somebody

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Speaker 3: else's life by mistake, and all I wanted was to

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Speaker 3: get back to my life, like the life of being

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Speaker 3: an anonymous college student, and I fantasized.

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Speaker 2: Indefinitely about that.

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Speaker 3: But as soon as it appeared to me, like as

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Speaker 3: soon as I actually like landed in Seattle, I was

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Speaker 3: not an anonymous college student. I was the infamous girl

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Speaker 3: accused of murder. And I walked out of the plane

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Speaker 3: to a press conference, and helicopters followed me home. And

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Speaker 3: because the case wasn't settled, like I went through another

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Speaker 3: four years of trial, it was like my entire life

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Speaker 3: was still in the public interest, and so I was

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Speaker 3: constantly being followed. I mean for years, like I would

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Speaker 3: go out for a walk with my friends and see

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Speaker 3: someone skateboarding and be like, oh, there's a skateboarder, And

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Speaker 3: then all of a sudden, that skateboarder would pull a

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Speaker 3: camera out of his backpack and be photographing me, like

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Speaker 3: any person on the street could have been like a

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Speaker 3: photographer in disguise. I had no idea, and so I

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Speaker 3: lived in a state of like hypervigilance and paranoia that

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Speaker 3: made me very isolated. It made me feel like I

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Speaker 3: didn't really belong to the rest of humanity, because again,

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Speaker 3: I was being so highly scrutinized constantly. My own attorneys

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Speaker 3: told me that again, like so much of the case

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Speaker 3: was about the story and the characters in the story

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Speaker 3: and not about the evidence. And so they said, you

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Speaker 3: have to be really careful who you trust. You have

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Speaker 3: to be really careful about how you appear in public

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Speaker 3: because people are still judging you. People are still looking

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Speaker 3: to find evidence of you being a guilty person and so,

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Speaker 3: and they're going to interpret you in the worst possible

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Speaker 3: light no matter what you do. So they sort of

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Speaker 3: scared me into the realization that I had to be

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Speaker 3: perfect and I could not make mistakes. Tell that to

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Speaker 3: a twenty five year old.

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Speaker 1: It's not the way you be living your life at

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Speaker 1: twenty five, catching up four years that you've missed out

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Speaker 1: onto The way you were portrayed in the media, and

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Speaker 1: that play played a part, I think, and this is

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Speaker 1: just my observation from afar in the way that you

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Speaker 1: were portrayed in the media and the interest in getting

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Speaker 1: a conviction against you. Describe how you were portrayed in

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Speaker 1: the media. For those a few of the people that

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Speaker 1: haven't heard how you portrayed, Describe how you portrayed in

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Speaker 1: the media during the time in Italy leading up to

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Speaker 1: the trial and different things from there.

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Speaker 3: I had a number of nicknames. One of them, the

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Speaker 3: one that sort of made its rounds around the world

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00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,080
Speaker 3: was Foxy Noxy, and that was derived from an old

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Speaker 3: soccer nickname that was on my old MySpace page that

347
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,159
Speaker 3: some journalists found and then they just thought that was

348
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Speaker 3: a perfect little headline grabbing nickname.

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Speaker 1: But that's a cool name for us.

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Speaker 4: Well, I thought it was cool when I was thirteen,

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Speaker 4: but it didn't like people sort of warped it into

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Speaker 4: this like sex fiend kind of vibe.

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Speaker 2: I had a few other nicknames in Italy.

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Speaker 3: I think the one that really hit me hard was Luciferina,

355
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Speaker 3: so female lucifer and yeah, so I.

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Speaker 2: Was portrayed as this.

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Speaker 3: On the one hand, being this the typical American stereotype

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Speaker 3: of like some hyper sexualized bimbo who had like zero

359
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:12,159
Speaker 3: morals and zero inhibitions, and on the other hand, I

360
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Speaker 3: was also depicted as this like cunning, manipulative criminal mastermind

361
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Speaker 3: who had orchestrated a sex murder orgy and then had

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Speaker 3: led the police astray using my feminine wiles and machinations.

363
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Speaker 3: And so I fulfilled this like deeply evil female archetype

364
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Speaker 3: in people's minds that was highly sexualized and highly vilified.

365
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Speaker 3: It was almost cartoonish. And again, I was twenty years

366
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,959
Speaker 3: old when this started being this narrative about who I was.

367
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Speaker 3: Took hold of the public imagination, and I mean I

368
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,679
Speaker 3: was barely a person yet, and I certainly wasn't hyper

369
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Speaker 3: sexutualized or or I was not hyper sexual or a villain.

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Speaker 3: And so here I am having to interact with the

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Speaker 3: world that expects something deeply opposite from what I am,

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Speaker 3: and and it felt like no matter what I did

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Speaker 3: and no matter what I said, people were continuing to

374
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Speaker 3: view me in this way because it was just so

375
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Speaker 3: satisfying to imagine this character.

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Speaker 1: Well, it had all the you know, all the titillation

377
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 1: of someone the sexual murder orgy manipulating police. It's like, yeah,

378
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Speaker 1: what was that movie.

379
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Speaker 3: We've show so yeah, where she crosses her legs very yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's that's the one with that. But that

381
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Speaker 1: was people fascinated by that type of thing, and the

382
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,439
Speaker 1: media played it, fed it, and yeah, everything that was

383
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Speaker 1: reported was steering that the focus focus on you and

384
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 1: creating you to be a character that you're not that

385
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,160
Speaker 1: must be hard because I would imagine that we're talking

386
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: of off records. Sometimes you want to shout from the rooftops,

387
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: hold that this is not me, but you weren't in

388
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Speaker 1: a position to do that.

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Speaker 3: No, And I mean even when I when I went

390
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 3: out there and spoke publicly, you know, I eventually did

391
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 3: do interviews, and I tried to tell my side of

392
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 3: the story, and it it always felt like the narrative,

393
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 3: which had existed already for years was had had had

394
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Speaker 3: a whole life of its own, and trying to tell

395
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 3: a different story was very difficult because what's better, like

396
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 3: it was the story of this like girl next door

397
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:51,640
Speaker 3: gone wild, who's secretly this like sex demon is a

398
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 3: great story.

399
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 1: More clickbit than no, she's just a quiet girl that it's.

400
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:58,719
Speaker 2: More clickbaity exactly.

401
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 3: And so who I am in real life in comparison

402
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,679
Speaker 3: to this figure is not interesting, and so how do

403
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 3: I compete with that?

404
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 2: And you can't.

405
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 3: And I also was struggling with the idea of like,

406
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 3: how reactive do I have to be to this? Because

407
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 3: I certainly can't just not be reactive. People are trying

408
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 3: to put me in prison, So I have to confront

409
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 3: this narrative. I think I intuited that it was a

410
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 3: losing battle to like always be defending myself in every instance.

411
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 3: So instead I really just wanted to be me. I

412
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 3: wanted to do good work in the world and be

413
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 3: the person I really was. But I was constantly having

414
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 3: doors slammed in my face because of this image of me.

415
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 3: And it didn't help that even though I was acquitted

416
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 3: of murder, I was never actually fully acquitted of all

417
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 3: the crimes that were ascribed to me. I was found

418
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 3: guilty of criminal slander because of my interrogation, and so people, yeah,

419
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,159
Speaker 3: and so they everyone would point to that and say, well,

420
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 3: either she got away with murder, but she's really a

421
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 3: murderer who got away with it, or even if she

422
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 3: is innocent of that crime, she's still a criminal and

423
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 3: we can't trust her and she's a liar. And so,

424
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 3: like it was, there's nothing I could do right. And

425
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 3: it really was a long, arduous process of feeling like

426
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 3: I every day that I woke up, I had to

427
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,719
Speaker 3: prove my innocence over and over and over again, and

428
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 3: it was utterly exhausting and it made me just want

429
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 3: to disappear. But of course I couldn't disappear because people

430
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 3: were just stalking me all the time. And yeah, it

431
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 3: was a deeply difficult many I mean decade and more

432
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 3: of my life before I like slowly came into situations

433
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:08,439
Speaker 3: with individual people who recognized me for who I really was.

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Speaker 1: Well, there was a turning point, if I remember rightly,

435
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: when you were invited to a conference from was it

436
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 1: Idaho Innocence?

437
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the director of the Idaho Innocence Project.

438
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 1: Tell us about that, because I think that was a

439
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 1: watershed moment for you in the way that you looked

440
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 1: at things.

441
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really was.

442
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,880
Speaker 3: Because again, like prior to all of this, I had

443
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 3: no experience with criminal justice related issues, like that was

444
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 3: not what I was interested in. I didn't even read

445
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 3: mystery novels, right, Like, that wasn't my thing.

446
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 2: So I didn't really have.

447
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 3: A concept for how what happened to me fit into

448
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 3: the historical record of criminal justice. Like, as far as

449
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 3: I knew, I was the only person that had ever

450
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 3: gone through something like this, and no one would ever

451
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 3: understand me or believe me. And I was really struggling.

452
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 3: My mom was really worried about my mental health. I

453
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 3: also just happened to have been re convicted right around

454
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 3: this time, so I was facing extradition. My life was

455
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 3: just in shambles. And a friend, someone who had become

456
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 3: a friend of our family, who had like sort of

457
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 3: been paying attention to the case. This person who investigates

458
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 3: wrongful conviction cases, the director of the Idaho Innocence Project,

459
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:34,959
Speaker 3: Greg Hampekian.

460
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 2: He reached out to my mom and.

461
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 3: Told her about this once a year gathering of innocence projects,

462
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 3: wrongly convicted people, lawyers, scientists, you know, private investigators who

463
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 3: all come together to you know, share their resources and

464
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 3: you know, all of that conference. It's a conference, and

465
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 3: he said that it would really help me to go.

466
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 3: But at the time, going into a room full of

467
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 3: hundreds of people who would recognize me and who I

468
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 3: did not know was like my worst nightmare. So my

469
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 3: mom had My mom just put her foot down and

470
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 3: was like, we're going. So she pops me into the car.

471
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 3: We drive down to Portland, Oregon, where it happened to

472
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 3: be taking place that year, and as I'm entering into

473
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 3: this what's you know, these gathering places, this ballroom where

474
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 3: people are gathering, I'm immediately recognized, even though by this

475
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 3: time I have done things to alter my appearance. I'm

476
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 3: wearing big glasses, I've cut my hair really short. I'm like,

477
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 3: I guess I still have my face, so I'm recognizable.

478
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 3: But I had done I had done what I could

479
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 3: to be different looking, and still I was immediately recognized

480
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 3: by these two guys who immediately came up to me,

481
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 3: and they gave me a really big hug and told

482
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 3: me that they were both exoneries. They had both been

483
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 3: wrongly convicted, and each of them had spent over a

484
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 3: decade in prison for crimes that they didn't commit. And

485
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 3: what they said to me was that I didn't have

486
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 3: to explain anything to them that they already knew. And

487
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 3: just like the relief that swept through me was I

488
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 3: was not. I didn't realize how wound up I was

489
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 3: and how how small I felt until like that breath

490
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 3: sort of swept through me and I loosened a bit,

491
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 3: and I realized that here I am standing in a

492
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,719
Speaker 3: room full of hundreds of people, at least a hundred

493
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 3: of them are people who have been in my exact situation,

494
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 3: and that was validating for me that like, I wasn't

495
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 3: just alone in this experience, that there are people who

496
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 3: could understand me and that I mattered. Like sure, I'm

497
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 3: just a drop in a bucket, but like all of

498
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 3: us matter. Everything that happened to us, all of us mattered,

499
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 3: And it really put me on a path of figuring

500
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 3: out what it is that I can do with the

501
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 3: fact that I have this in my life. Now it's

502
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 3: a part of me. Now what do I do with it?

503
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 3: And that gave me my first glimpse of an opportunity.

504
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: So well, some purpose and the platform, all the things

505
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: that were negative of the profile and all that. I

506
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: would imagine you will be able to make a difference

507
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: in that space understanding what's occurred to you. And you

508
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: also found your tribe, so it would have helped you

509
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: emotionally and from that point of view, other people that

510
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: you could would understand what you've been through. But I

511
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: would imagine after the whole playing out in the media,

512
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: the time in prison, the court, that there would have

513
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: been part of you that just wanted to crawl under

514
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: a rock and never living, deserted Kevin in the woods

515
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: and never speak to anyone again.

516
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

517
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, but like you know what, the thing that was

518
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 3: stolen from me in a way was human connection, like

519
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 3: I was plucked out of freedom and thrown in a

520
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 3: jail cell and told that I was a monster, and

521
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 3: I was made to feel like I didn't belong to

522
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 3: other people anymore, And finding my tribe in the wrongly

523
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 3: convicted community was my first sort of feeling like I

524
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 3: belonged to people again, and it gave me the hope

525
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 3: that I could belong to the broader humanity again.

526
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 2: Like you know, I'm not a monster.

527
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 3: I've just had a bad thing happen to me, and

528
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 3: that doesn't have to be a reason for disconnection. It

529
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 3: can be a reason for connection.

530
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: Not being a monster. There would have been times where

531
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: you must been sitting in a prison cell and everything

532
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: that's happening to you, just thinking am I a bad person?

533
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,479
Speaker 1: Why do I need? Why does society need to be

534
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: protected from me? It must play with your play with

535
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: your mind. I can't imagine what it's like going through

536
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: that in there for that length of time. But then

537
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: I suppose with the people that you've met and the

538
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: person I reference, he spent twenty years, and you saw

539
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: a lot of people that spent a lot longer than

540
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: you did in jail for crimes that they didn't commit.

541
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I was definitely lucky in comparison. I mean,

542
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 3: it's funny. When I was in prison, you do, you're right,

543
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 3: you do come up with like you're frantically trying to

544
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 3: figure out why is this happening to me? And at

545
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 3: no point did I think I deserved it, although I

546
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 3: did really struggle with my like what happened during my

547
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 3: interrogation and how I did not understand what had happened

548
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 3: to me, But I did think, like in a final

549
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 3: destination kind of thing.

550
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 2: I thought that maybe.

551
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 3: The crazy thing that came into my mind was was

552
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 3: I supposed to suffer in my childhood but then like

553
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 3: suffering forgot about me, and now it was just piling

554
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 3: on all the suffering all at once, Like I just

555
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 3: could not comprehend, Like.

556
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: It you catched in all your credit cards in your childhood.

557
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 2: I get, I guess.

558
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,240
Speaker 3: So I just had like the good childhood and now

559
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 3: like doom and gloom had had come to like get

560
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,240
Speaker 3: what's theirs? And I just was getting everything bad happening

561
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 3: to me all at once, and yet at the same time,

562
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 3: I'm alive, yeah, right, Like I'm alive.

563
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 2: There's still hope for me.

564
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,959
Speaker 1: You know, And I would imagine the why that you've

565
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 1: forever connected with Meredith. You would often reflect on that

566
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: you could have been home at the time, and that

567
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 1: could have been completely completely different circumstances. Yeah.

568
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 3: No, not a day goes by that I do not

569
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 3: think about how I'm the lucky one of the two

570
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 3: of us.

571
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: Hey, guys, it's scary Jubilan. He want to get more

572
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: out of our Catchkillers, then you should head over to

573
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 1: our new video feed on Spotify where you can watch

574
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: every episode of I Catch Killers. Just search for I

575
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: Catch Killers video in your Spotify app and start watching today. Now,

576
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: the meeting and you in your book, and there's so

577
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 1: many things in your book, in both your books that

578
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 1: I'd encourage people, if they're interested in what we're talking about,

579
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: have a look for the in depth the type of

580
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: things that we're talking about. But with meeting with the prosecutor,

581
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 1: Jiulano mcghini. Now I spelt that out phonetically and tried

582
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: to pronounce it that way, but.

583
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's Juliano Mini, Giuliano Mignini.

584
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go.

585
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: If there's one person that had control of what you

586
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 1: went through, it was probably the prosecutor there, Yes, but

587
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,399
Speaker 1: you felt the need to meet with meet with him.

588
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: Tell us about that and the process.

589
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 3: There well, because I was so haunted by that why question, right,

590
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 3: like why why did this happen to me? And in

591
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 3: a way I could bring all that back to Rudy Gaedet,

592
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 3: the person who murdered my roommate. If he hadn't murdered her,

593
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 3: none of this would ever have happened to me. But

594
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 3: like Giuliano, Manini was really the sort of author of

595
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 3: all the bad things that followed for me, like past

596
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 3: the trauma of losing a friend. Like Juliana, Mignini was

597
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 3: the one who targeted me. He was the head of

598
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 3: the investigation, the prosecutor. He really was the one who

599
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 3: crafted this narrative about me and pushed for it and

600
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 3: pushed for my imprisonment. And I didn't understand why. I

601
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 3: think the thing that really to this day bothers me

602
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 3: about this case. And I'm asking also you, as a

603
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 3: homicide investigator, like, it's not that this case wasn't solved right,

604
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 3: Like in a lot of wrongful conviction cases, part of

605
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 3: the reason why wrongful conviction happens is because there's not

606
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 3: enough evidence to really figure out what really happened.

607
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: Well, they're they're looking for the perpetrator. I just jump

608
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: in there on that. On that question, the person that

609
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:13,760
Speaker 1: was convicted for the rape and the involvement in the murder,

610
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: how they kept tying you into into that scenario is

611
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 1: just I'm gobsmack. Like I look at it, and I

612
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: look from a perspective a police officer or an investigator.

613
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: How could they make that mistake? To me, it looked

614
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 1: like it was ego that stopped them opening their minds

615
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: up to hey, we got it wrong target targeting Amanda,

616
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: but they just stuck to it because they didn't want

617
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: to admit they're wrong. That That's that's my take on it. Rudy.

618
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: I think every all the evidence is supporting for the

619
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,399
Speaker 1: fact that he's involvement in it. He's served his time,

620
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 1: he's been convicted of it. He's out now, which I

621
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: don't get involved in the sentences, but he was convicted

622
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 1: of it. It's not like they couldn't find someone else.

623
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: So the fact that you speak to the prosecutor, I

624
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 1: respect that, and you want him to know who you

625
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:06,399
Speaker 1: are as a person, and you want to find out

626
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,439
Speaker 1: who he is. But I feel that I can't find

627
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: excuses for him. I'm saying I'm angry at him. I

628
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: just can't find excuses for him because the answers were

629
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 1: fairly obvious. You can have your hypothesis, you can have

630
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,320
Speaker 1: your theories, but when the facts don't correspond with that,

631
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 1: you accept that. Okay, you might be following the right path.

632
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 1: But it seems like it was totally ignored when they

633
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 1: found the person responsible for the murder. But they thought, oh, well,

634
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: we'll still drag you you pair into it as well.

635
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, and I agree, Like I think my approaching

636
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,720
Speaker 3: him was also not like I said. It wasn't because

637
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 3: I was I was chasing forgiveness, like I wasn't trying.

638
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 3: That was not my goal, Nor was it my goal

639
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 3: to make excuses for him, right, Like, I'm not interested

640
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 3: in excuses. I want anne And so when I approached him,

641
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 3: I my goal was to try to figure out the

642
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:15,240
Speaker 3: why of it was the real answers, And I knew

643
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 3: that he would not be inclined to tell me the

644
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 3: truth and be vulnerable and potentially acknowledge mistakes that he

645
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 3: had made if I had approached him as an adversary,

646
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 3: if I had put him immediately on the defensive and

647
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 3: demanded that he hold himself accountable for his mistakes and

648
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 3: acknowledge that he'd yeah, absolutely, he would block me. He

649
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 3: had no reason to do that for me, even though

650
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 3: it was the right thing to do. So instead, I thought, well,

651
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 3: how can I have an effective conversation with him where

652
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 3: he'll actually just be honest with me? And I thought, well,

653
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 3: first of all, I can't assume anything right, Like I

654
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 3: can take note of the factual things that he did,

655
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 3: but I cannot assume anything about his intentions right. And

656
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 3: if anything, maybe what I should do is try to

657
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 3: be a little more generous that I might want to

658
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 3: be in this moment as someone who was hurt, and

659
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 3: really embrace the fact that the vast majority of us

660
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 3: wake up every morning wanting to be the good guys

661
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 3: and right, including my prosecutor. And so what kind of

662
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 3: mental gymnastics might he be consciously and unconsciously doing in

663
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 3: order to make himself be still the good guy at

664
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 3: the end of the day. And it was really that

665
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 3: at that realization, plus the realization that the first way

666
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 3: to have an effective communication with someone is to try

667
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 3: to find common ground, to establish a sense of like

668
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 3: you're a human, I'm a human.

669
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 2: We have this in common. And I made a.

670
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 3: Guess and it was a correct guess that, given the

671
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 3: very public nature of the case, not only did I

672
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 3: feel misrepresented and vilified, but very likely he did too.

673
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 3: And so when I first reached out to him, I

674
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 3: said I believed that even though he had harmed me

675
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 3: and that he had made mistakes, that he had not

676
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 3: done so maliciously, like intentionally, and that I thought that

677
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 3: he was very likely maligned in many ways, and I

678
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 3: was not interested in maligning him. I was interested in

679
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 3: understanding him and knowing him. And he was kind of

680
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 3: gobsmacked by that no one he had ever prosecuted had

681
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,919
Speaker 3: ever reached out to him much less in that kind

682
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 3: of way, but like it surprised him enough that I

683
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 3: think he he was sort of I think maybe the

684
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:26,280
Speaker 3: honor part of him was like, well, I can't respond

685
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 3: negatively to that, like I, you know, I should respond

686
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 3: to because it's like I sort of approached him honorably,

687
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 3: and so it would have been dishonorable to just ignore me,

688
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 3: you know. So and that began a communication. And to

689
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 3: be clear, I do not make excuses for him, nor

690
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 3: do I like ignore the things that he did. I

691
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 3: have absolutely confronted him many, many times about the mistakes

692
00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 3: that he made that led to direct harm to me.

693
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 3: Sometimes he is able to accept and acknowledge those mistakes,

694
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 3: and sometimes he's not, because he's in his mind still

695
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 3: constructing a narrative about how things are not his fault

696
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 3: or how things he still believes that, you know, like

697
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 3: he still says that the break in was staged, you know,

698
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 3: like he to this day, he's just like, well, no

699
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 3: one can convince me otherwise. And it's like, well, okay,

700
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 3: that's your opinion. I guess, like it's not a fact,

701
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 3: that's just your opinion. And you guess I can't convince

702
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 3: you not of your opinion, So okay, yeah, how do

703
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 3: you confront that? Like how you know, Okay, I guess

704
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 3: you're just gonna maybe you feel safe in that being

705
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 3: your opinion, and you you know, because you know, if

706
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 3: you put himself or yourself in his shoes. It would

707
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 3: be devastating for him to realize that that was a

708
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 3: mistake because everything that he deduced from that was right.

709
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, trying to find goodness in people, and yeah,

710
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,800
Speaker 1: it was think in your book where your mother told you,

711
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:11,320
Speaker 1: you know, the one thing I want you to be

712
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: in life as an eight year old girl was kind

713
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: being kind to kind to him in the way that

714
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 1: you the respectful way that you've treated because you could

715
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 1: be carrying on completely different in regards to him. I

716
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 1: think it does, and it falls back into what you

717
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 1: talk about taking control. But one thing that you can

718
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 1: control and one thing that you can't take away from

719
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 1: me is my kindness. So it shows you to be

720
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 1: the be the person that person that you are. But

721
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:44,479
Speaker 1: it's unbelievable story like twists and turns so many.

722
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 3: I feel so bad that we don't have like a

723
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 3: million hours because it's like twists.

724
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 2: And turns.

725
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: Out the door. We will well talk about what you

726
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 1: what you're doing. Now, let's just let's just sum up

727
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: the you were convicted of a crime, you didn't commit.

728
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: Time in prison. You've come through it, the immedia attention

729
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 1: and what you've been through no one should have to

730
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 1: go through. But you've survived it. And I want to

731
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: talk about your life now and all the projects that

732
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,839
Speaker 1: you're well, even your speech in Italy when you went

733
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 1: back to Italy. I'm just going to read this extract

734
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: extract out because this is an extract from your speech

735
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: when the Innocence program over in Italy invited you over

736
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 1: there to talk and you had reservations, And this is

737
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 1: just a small extract, but to give people a sense

738
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: of how you felt when you were going through all

739
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: this drama. I was a liar, a psychopath, a dirty

740
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 1: drug adult slut so jealous of meritith purity that I

741
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: raped and killed her. Guilty until proven innocent. It was

742
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: a false and unfounded story, but it sparked the world's imagination.

743
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 1: It spoke to people's fears and fantasies. I think I

744
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: pulled that out because that's sort of encapsulated in a

745
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: nutshell how you were treated. And it was pretty horrific,

746
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 1: wasn't Yeah it was.

747
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 3: It was really really bad. It was really bad. Yeah,

748
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 3: And I've learned a lot from it. And you know,

749
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:15,280
Speaker 3: one thing I wanted to mention on your podcast today

750
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 3: was you know, and now I look into other cases

751
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,840
Speaker 3: and I try to support other wrongly convicted people, and

752
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 3: you know, I have like made the mistake before. For instance,

753
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 3: I don't know if you knew this, but I advocated

754
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 3: for someone who I believed was innocent. But then after

755
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 3: I looked more into the evidence, I realized that he

756
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 3: was really guilty. And that was a devastating realization that,

757
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 3: like again, a learning experience is like, Okay, I too,

758
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 3: am coming into situations with biases. I am assuming that

759
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 3: you know, the police are not being forthcoming and or

760
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 3: not you know, like all of that. So how do

761
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 3: I be a more fair minded person who's going to

762
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 3: approach these really difficult scenarios with an objective point of

763
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 3: view or at least acknowledging my subjective biases? And that's

764
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,959
Speaker 3: led me to a new case that I've been investigating

765
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 3: and I'm going to be imminently reporting on, which is

766
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 3: the Lucy Letpie case that is happening in the UK

767
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 3: right now.

768
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 2: Have you been following it at all?

769
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: The nurse that was charged with harmy multiple children, I

770
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 1: think convicted of seven murders, is that.

771
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 3: Yes, and also accused and also six attempted murders on

772
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 3: top of that and still being investigated, has you know,

773
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,839
Speaker 3: many whole life sentences. She's you know, I think she's

774
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 3: thirty eight years old now, she's like my age, and

775
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:47,280
Speaker 3: she I think the thing that's really haunted me about

776
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 3: this story is when it was first really big in

777
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 3: the news. You know, I'm I wasn't looking for her case.

778
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 3: Her case came looking for me. Like tons of people

779
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 3: reached out to me to say, hey, we're seeing the demonized,

780
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 3: like the demonization of a young woman based upon really

781
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:14,720
Speaker 3: questionable evidence happening here in the UK, and we feel

782
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 3: like the only person who's going to like immediately recognize

783
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,399
Speaker 3: what's going on is you can you do something about

784
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 3: Like multiple people reached out to me separately saying like,

785
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 3: please look into this case. And you know, I had

786
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 3: been I had been burned before on a case where

787
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 3: I was like, Okay, this feels really familiar, but is

788
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 3: it really a.

789
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 2: Wrongful conviction case?

790
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:38,240
Speaker 3: I don't know. I have to look into the evidence.

791
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 3: But this one is one that's like so fascinating because

792
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 3: it really it's it's not just an indictment of like

793
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 3: the justice system and whether or not there is a

794
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 3: fair trial being had here. It's also a broader indictment

795
00:48:55,680 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 3: of like the you know, National Health Service, and there

796
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:04,240
Speaker 3: are impulse to try to find to try to blame

797
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 3: people when something tragic happens that may not have been

798
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 3: a crime at all.

799
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 2: And I think that's something that you don't.

800
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 3: Well what you do see, you do see it in

801
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 3: a lot of cases when women are wrongly accused.

802
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: Well had we've had in Australia, we've had some very

803
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 1: high profile Lindy Chamberlain that became Meryl Street, played there

804
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:31,800
Speaker 1: in the Hollywood movie The Dingo's Got My Baby, charged

805
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 1: and finally acquitted of the allegation. Kathleen Folbick, she was

806
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 1: charged with murdering four of her children and then the

807
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:46,279
Speaker 1: scientific evidence came in that contradicted that it wasn't a

808
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: sound conviction and she was acquitted. When medical science, when

809
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: science comes into play, there's interpretations. You can get an

810
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: expert and then another expert can say, say another thing,

811
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 1: and the advances in medical science causes problems with the

812
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 1: courts to be able to try to interpret it. My

813
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: reading of the story you're talking about there is there's

814
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 1: also failings in the health system that yeah, it's easy

815
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 1: to cast and I'm just assuming here, but if it

816
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: was wrongful convictions cast dispersions on someone to counter the

817
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 1: fact that we're not looking after the children properly. But

818
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,320
Speaker 1: that's a big responsibility, or it's a big project you're

819
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 1: taking on, So you're not shying away from it, and

820
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 1: it would be confronting.

821
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 3: No, No, it keeps finding me and I keep and

822
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 3: you know, how can I How can I say no

823
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 3: when somebody's life is on the line, you know, And

824
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 3: it really matters to get these things right. And if

825
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 3: these kids really were murdered, it matters to like really

826
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 3: understand what happened. And I think right now, what's so

827
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,439
Speaker 3: disconcerting is that these families are left in this state

828
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 3: of uncertainty. It's not clear how, if at all, this

829
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:02,879
Speaker 3: woman murdered these and so like it's it's a really

830
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 3: scary case because like she very quickly overnight went from

831
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 3: being an anonymous, you know, young nurse to the most

832
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 3: hated woman in the UK and being described as like

833
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 3: the Jack the Repper of babies.

834
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 1: It's yeah, oh wow, there's nothing worse than people that

835
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 1: murder murder children. It's coming out in the podcast. Are

836
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:26,320
Speaker 1: you doing the podcast?

837
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 3: Yes? Yeah, yeah, So I'm working with iHeart on a

838
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,240
Speaker 3: podcast that is going to be called Doubts.

839
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 1: Okay, well, that's that's interesting. I'll have a look out

840
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 1: for that. And I finish off with thank you so

841
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 1: much for coming on the podcast. You've been someone I

842
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 1: wanted to speak to for a very long time, and

843
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 1: I think looking at the philosophy of the way that

844
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:51,439
Speaker 1: you've approached things, I've learned a lot and I'm sure

845
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,359
Speaker 1: people listening to it, like, if there's an injustice, well

846
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 1: your sits right up there and you've managed to come

847
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:02,320
Speaker 1: through it. And I often not in forgiveness, kindness or whatever,

848
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 1: but sometimes I'm motivated by when I get a setback.

849
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,720
Speaker 1: My way of getting through it is live your best life.

850
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 1: That's the way to get back. And I think anyone

851
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 1: that's done harm to you or the circumstances that brought

852
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 1: you into what happened to you the life that you're

853
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:21,399
Speaker 1: living now, that that is the best way to deal

854
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 1: with it, living that best life. So congratulations, it's true, Yeah,

855
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:25,400
Speaker 1: it is.

856
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 2: It is kind of the best revenge.

857
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 1: All right, Well, thank you very much. I've enjoyed the chat. Cheers,