1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,200 Speaker 1: Okad a. Welcome to Healthy Ish. I hope you are 2 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: feeling well healthy today, not the ish. I am your 3 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: host of Felicity Hawlen, of course, this is the daily 4 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:10,319 Speaker 1: podcast from Body and Soul. I'm joined today by award 5 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: winning science journalist and author of new book Why Are 6 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: We Like This? Zoe Keane. We're discussing how evolutionary history 7 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: shapes our current health behaviors and why understanding it all 8 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: can help boost well, not only your health, but also 9 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: your wellbeing. Now, we keep our Healthiest episodes quite short, 10 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: so if you want to hear a longer chat with 11 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: Zoe where we take a deep dive into aging, search 12 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: for our sister pod, Extra Healthy Ish, where we get 13 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: your podcasts. Hey Zoey, thanks for coming on healthy Is today. 14 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 2: Gooday, thank you for having me. 15 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: And well done on your I'm calling it fascinating new book. 16 00:00:59,440 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 2: I love that. 17 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: Now talk to us, how can evolutionary biology, well, what 18 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: can it teach us about our health today? 19 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 2: Well, there's a bit of a saying among evolutionary biologists, 20 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:12,639 Speaker 2: and I spoke to a lot of them for this book, 21 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 2: that nothing in biology makes sense outside of the light 22 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 2: of evolution, and essentially that's because we all got here 23 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 2: with an evolutionary story. Every single thing that is alive 24 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 2: on this planet has this amazing legacy of generations going 25 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 2: back and back and back and surviving in different contexts, 26 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:38,119 Speaker 2: and that history changes the way in which we turn 27 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 2: up in the world today and changes the way our 28 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 2: body works and influences everything from how we sleep, how 29 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 2: we eat, how we experience emotions and love. Everything that 30 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 2: we experience as living being things is a consequence of 31 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 2: this history. And that doesn't take away from our own 32 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 2: individual experience or how important important our lives are to us, 33 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 2: but it is this incredible legacy, and it really helps 34 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 2: us untangle some of the trickier questions we've faced in life. 35 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: I think when you, I mean I've delved into it 36 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: a bit too, you know, the past couple of years, 37 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: into how we've evolved and you know as to who 38 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: we are today, and it really does help you appreciate 39 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 1: how well not just your body functions, but how we 40 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: relate in the world. Your book is cut up into 41 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: different chapters, you know, sleep, care, sex, lives. Talk to 42 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: us a bit about sleep, you know, and where how 43 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: that has perhaps developed over the years, and well how 44 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: we can sleep better today, That's what I want to know. Yeah, Well, 45 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: so every chapter kind of focuses on this, this crunchy 46 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: issue in evolutionary biology that doesn't quite make sense with 47 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: a kind of first pass idea of you know, traits 48 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: that are selected for that help us survive and then 49 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: have more offspring, and those offsprings. Sleeps a bit of 50 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: a weird one because it's strange to completely lose consciousness 51 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: in a dangerous world. Right when we go to sleep, 52 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: we're vulnerable, And so how has. 53 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 2: Something that has made us vulnerable continued? And of course 54 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 2: it's continued because it's incredibly healthy for us, or we've 55 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 2: kind of offloaded a lot of biological functions into the 56 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 2: sleep time that we need to survive and we can't 57 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 2: survive without sleep. Interestingly, one of the things I found 58 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 2: when I was researching this book and this kind of 59 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 2: bucks the trend a little bit is that modern humans 60 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 2: are probably sleeping better than we ever have. 61 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: Oh and I know, actually that is lovely to hear. 62 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 2: It is, isn't it, because we've got so much anxiety 63 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 2: around sleep. I spoke to this wonderful researcher, David Sinclair, 64 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 2: and he's been doing a lot of research around this 65 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 2: is based in Canada and Toronto, and he was saying, 66 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: in our culture, one of the things that we do 67 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: is really problematize sleep. And of course, you know, I've 68 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 2: just enturing my book I'll sleep deprived for a bit 69 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 2: of that. And it's horrible when you're sleep deprived, and 70 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 2: there are periods in your life, say when you're raising 71 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: up kids, that you are sleep deprived, and it's awful 72 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 2: and it impacts you physically, it impacts your health. But 73 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,119 Speaker 2: compared to the history of life on Earth, we're probably 74 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 2: doing okay. And that can be a really comforting thing 75 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: to know because we kind of hear these dire headlines 76 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 2: about sleep loss, epidemic and all this type of thing. 77 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 2: But essentially, you know, I did also encounter some things 78 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 2: that we can do to make our sleep better, and 79 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 2: that is really get in touch with our circadian rhythm. 80 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 2: So it's like really the basic stuff. You know, make 81 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 2: sure that you're seeing the light in the morning, seeing 82 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 2: the light in midday if you're working in an office block, 83 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 2: you know, just trying to get out for lunch and 84 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 2: then seeing the light at the end of the day. 85 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 2: So you know, actually going outside can be really helpful. 86 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 2: And of course, one of the big things that we 87 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 2: can do to help sleep is to help each other 88 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 2: live better, less stressful lives. So a huge impact on 89 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 2: everybody's sleep is you know, we might have heard the 90 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: term social determinants of health, but if your life is hard, 91 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 2: if you're living in danger, so you know, if you're 92 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 2: living in a dangerous neighborhood, you have worse sleep compared 93 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 2: to someone who's living in a safe neighborhood. And if 94 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 2: you're living in, say a situation where you know there's 95 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 2: worry and anxiety around, then that obviously affects your sleep. 96 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:22,799 Speaker 2: And we feel that on a personal level when we're stressed, 97 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 2: it's harder to sleep. But also that's a larger cultural thing. 98 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 2: So you know, you can help people sleep by just 99 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 2: checking in on a mate and making sure that your 100 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 2: friends and family are safe. And we often get individual advice, 101 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 2: but community advice is a really big one for sleep, 102 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 2: because just community safety can really help with our sleep. 103 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 2: One chapter that I've found perhaps reassuring more than ever 104 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 2: right now with all that's going on in the world 105 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 2: is why we care and. 106 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: Whales and wolves and humans. You know, you link these 107 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: two and you talk about the survival depending on acts 108 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 1: of kindness. 109 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 2: Talk to us about this, yeah, I mean, one of 110 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 2: the kind of frustrations I have about evolutionary biology is 111 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 2: often when people talk about it, they emphasize this kind 112 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 2: of raw and rugged individualism where everybody's out for themselves. 113 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 2: Dog eat dog, the dog eat dog. It's that kind 114 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 2: of world. And actually, one of the beautiful things about 115 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 2: us as humans and animals like dogs, elephants, and whales 116 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 2: especially is that our survival is completely dependent on our community, 117 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 2: and so we have evolved to be incredibly caring and 118 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 2: incredibly altruistic, and this means that we will sacrifice ourselves 119 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 2: to help out our neighbors, our friends, our offspring. And 120 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 2: I investigated this looking at human baby but also looking 121 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 2: at different species, so mainly pilot and sperm whales, because 122 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:56,239 Speaker 2: they're incredible examples of very caring communities. So pilot whales 123 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 2: and sperm whales they babysit for each other, so they'll 124 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 2: look after each other's kids when they're you know, off 125 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 2: diving hunting for squeeeds, I know, and in some sperm 126 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 2: whale groups, because sperm whales, like humans, they have different 127 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 2: cultures and so some sperm whales have some babysitting arrangements 128 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 2: that differ to other sperm whales, which is incredible. You know, 129 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 2: some if you're in one community of sperm whales, you 130 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 2: might be more likely to be looked after by a 131 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 2: family member, whereas you might be more likely to be 132 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 2: looked after by a more distant relation in another one. 133 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 2: It's fascinating. And sperm whales will even suckle each other's young, 134 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 2: so you know, they'll share real physical resources with each other. 135 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 2: And this is an incredible way that helps them survive 136 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 2: in the world, and it helps them live lives. 137 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: That thrive and yeah, in a very. 138 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 2: Dangerous place in the open ocean. But it does have 139 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 2: this kind of other side effect, which means that sometimes 140 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 2: their social relationships can make it hard when they're, say 141 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 2: in a mass stranding event, because it can be very 142 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 2: hard to get whales off the beach if they've got 143 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 2: their loved ones still on the beach. Sense. Yeah, and 144 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 2: with humans, you know, we're the same. We will, you know, 145 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 2: go into danger to look after those that we love. 146 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 2: And one of the really heartening things I found in 147 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 2: the book found researching the book, and it's a fairly 148 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 2: well known thing, but I think it's always worth repeating, 149 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 2: is that in times of crisis, so say after a 150 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 2: bush fire or you know, after some catastrophic event, levels 151 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 2: of pro social behavior so people helping other people increase massively, 152 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 2: And we're often told to kind of worry about things 153 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 2: like looting or crime, but actually when things are tough, 154 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 2: that's when our really, really good behavior comes out. And 155 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 2: that's an incredible thing to know about humanity because things 156 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 2: can look a bit dire sometimes, so it's I think 157 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 2: really important to look at our legacy of care and 158 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 2: how community care and caring for those that were related 159 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 2: to and those that we're not related to has helped 160 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 2: us survive and look to that past for inspiration, but 161 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 2: also to understand ourselves as caring beings. And there are 162 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 2: some fantastic researchers that are looking at that how that's 163 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 2: operating now in species like whales, but also in human cultures, 164 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 2: so you know, all the way from Massi warriors in 165 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 2: Africa and Kenya to ranchers out in the US who 166 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 2: are looking after their neighbors, and the kind of similarities 167 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 2: in the way we care for each other that are 168 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: very interesting cross culturally. 169 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: So Thank you for coming on. 170 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 2: Healthy Is No Worries. 171 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: Well, if you want answers to some of life's big questions, 172 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: like some of the ones we just chatted about, grab 173 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: Zoe's book. It is called Why Are We Like This? 174 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: It is out now. Make sure listening to her on 175 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: Extra Healthy Ish anything else. Head to Body andsoul dot com. 176 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: That are you can follow us on social media. You 177 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: can grab me at Felicity Harley as well. Make sure 178 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:00,199 Speaker 1: you check out our print edition which is annually called 179 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: Sunday Paper. Thanks again for tuning into this podcast, and 180 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: of course stay healthy.