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Speaker 1: I'll get a team. Welcome to another installment of the

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Speaker 1: Youth Project. It's Harps, it's doctor Blaze, who we're going

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Speaker 1: to meet in a moment, but Firs Tiffany and Cuck,

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Speaker 1: who is of course the life force, the blood that

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Speaker 1: flows through the typ veins and keeps us all in check.

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Speaker 1: Because like Melissa, who's the other boss, she's a little

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Speaker 1: bit terrifying. How are you this morning, Queen of the world.

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Speaker 2: It is a big, exhausting job, Harps, And as we

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Speaker 2: near the end of the year, I'll be ready to

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Speaker 2: take a breather from that big job you give me.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, how good will it be for you? It'd

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Speaker 1: be like somebody pulling a thorn out of your side

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Speaker 1: for you not to have to talk to me, for like,

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Speaker 1: do you fantasize about having time away from me?

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Speaker 2: That is not true, That is not true. You are

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Speaker 2: a breath of fresh air. And I do love to laugh,

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Speaker 2: which happens one hundred percent of the time.

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Speaker 1: So do you know what's great is that you love

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Speaker 1: to laugh? Melissa loves to laugh, and I think I'm

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Speaker 1: mildly amusing, which is my mostly not true. But you

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Speaker 1: two are so fucking easy to make laugh that you

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Speaker 1: build my self esteem in a way that you probably shouldn't,

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Speaker 1: and I get a little bit ahead of myself. Then

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Speaker 1: I get out with real humans realize how unfunny I am. Right, Ah,

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Speaker 1: doctor blaize a Geary, Sorry for mangling that. Hi buddy,

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Speaker 1: how are you good?

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Speaker 3: How's it going? We're in the middle of We're in

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Speaker 3: the middle of winter or just starting winter. You're going

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Speaker 3: to you're starting your summer now?

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Speaker 1: Well, dude, it was in Melbourne yesterday. It was thirty

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Speaker 1: eight degrees which is fahrenheit somewhere around one oh five

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Speaker 1: or something. So it's gone. But the thing about Melbourne

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Speaker 1: is Melbourne could be can be in Celsius. It can

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Speaker 1: be literally sixteen or seventeen one day and then thirty

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Speaker 1: five the next. It's just a city of extremes. But

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Speaker 1: nonetheless it's a beautiful place live. And you've been here,

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Speaker 1: You've been here a few times I have.

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Speaker 3: I loved it. There was a I first went in

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Speaker 3: twenty eleven when I went to actually I went to

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Speaker 3: the Sydney Olympics and then I shot over to Melbourne,

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Speaker 3: and that was in two thousand and then twenty eleven

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Speaker 3: I went to the National Associate International Association for the

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Speaker 3: Study of Personality Disorders. That was in Melbourne, and then

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Speaker 3: and then I don't know why I went a third time,

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Speaker 3: but I loved it. I loved the botanical gardens, and

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Speaker 3: I loved the restaurants. Of food was just crazy. And

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Speaker 3: then the wine was was criminal.

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Speaker 1: Really Yeah, Melbourne prides itself on being the best place

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Speaker 1: in Australia for restaurants and bars and coffee and wine

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Speaker 1: and food and fine dining and ti as Tiff will

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Speaker 1: tell you the best cookies in the world. Is that right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you are. Tiff is the best cook No, she's the

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Speaker 1: best cookies as in the best you know, like.

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Speaker 2: Tell cookies, you know, cookies like biscuits.

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Speaker 3: I love pistachios.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, they'll change your life next time here. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: No, for somebody who allegedly works in the space of health, wellness,

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Speaker 1: fitness and high performance, she's a very bad influence on

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Speaker 1: a lot of people. A lot of people with with

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Speaker 1: with pre diabetes are being fed cookies bytes if so,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, do you try to get people sick

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Speaker 1: so you can then charge to get them? Well, Tiff,

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Speaker 1: it's not.

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Speaker 2: It's not a bad business.

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Speaker 1: Plan is it. It's not. It's probably a moral one,

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Speaker 1: but could be profitable. There's a lot of issues going

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Speaker 1: on here. Prof. Now, I was listening to you on

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Speaker 1: dak Shephard. What a great conversation that was, and I

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Speaker 1: went down by the way two hours. You're killing me,

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Speaker 1: but it was amazing. So I went down the rabbit hole.

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Speaker 1: I went on. I'm just going to listen to twenty

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Speaker 1: minutes of the prof talk to these guys, and it

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Speaker 1: was a great conversation. And give us, give my audience

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a snapshot of your background, because

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Speaker 1: it's like you grew up in thirty two different countries

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Speaker 1: and I think your mom was Spanish and your dad

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Speaker 1: was Irish, but you grew up for a while in

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Speaker 1: South Africa, and yeah, give us some insight into childhood.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, oldest of eight children. I was actually born in

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Speaker 3: the States. I left when I was tiny, I am.

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Speaker 3: We then moved to London. My brother was born there.

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Speaker 3: I moved to Spain, four siblings born there, and then

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Speaker 3: South Africa where I grew up and I went to

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Speaker 3: medical school in South Africa, and then after that I

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Speaker 3: came to the States and I actually played rugby and

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Speaker 3: so I played rugby from my high school, a Catholic boys' school,

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Speaker 3: and I was tight head prop So then I came

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Speaker 3: to the States in nineteen ninety and I've joined the

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Speaker 3: Harvard faculty in two thousand and I've been with Harvard

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Speaker 3: ever since, and you know, and I've lived in the

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Speaker 3: Boston area for the last yeah, since then, so thirty

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Speaker 3: five years.

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Speaker 1: We always fascinated with human behavior in the mind and

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Speaker 1: the brain, and like that was that I was always

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Speaker 1: fascinated with that. I didn't necessarily, I didn't start researching

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Speaker 1: until much lighter, but you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I always was. And I think that maybe

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Speaker 3: because I traveled so much, I just saw different people

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Speaker 3: in very similar circumstances, doing very very different things. I

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Speaker 3: just sort of like, what is going on? And I

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Speaker 3: was also very interesting in philosophy, and you know, so

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Speaker 3: I just I loved questions of the human mind and

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Speaker 3: how the world sees things. And I think it's just

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Speaker 3: been remarkable, you know, living in Spain, living in South Africa,

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Speaker 3: living in the United States, living in England, different places,

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Speaker 3: just how how people interact with each other and react

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Speaker 3: to each other, and in some situations, uh, the very

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Speaker 3: same behavior that we pathologize in one country is just

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Speaker 3: normal in another country. For instance, on my mother's side,

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Speaker 3: all my cousins are Spanish, and I was trying to

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Speaker 3: explain borderline personality disorder to them as like a disorder

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Speaker 3: of like high emotions and high reactivity and a lot

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Speaker 3: of like intensity and everything that sounds like that sounds

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Speaker 3: like every single Spaniard on the planet, you know, and

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Speaker 3: so like in the one situation, it's you know, but

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Speaker 3: in in countries where you expected to have like super

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Speaker 3: control of yourself, you know, high expressions of emotions, especially

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Speaker 3: if they're paired with self destructive behaviors obviously problematic. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: So I was always interested in in human nature and

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Speaker 3: human behavior.

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Speaker 1: Do we know a lot more now than we did

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Speaker 1: fifty years ago? Do we know a lot more than

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Speaker 1: two thousand years ago when the Stoics were talking about,

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Speaker 1: you know, to know thyself is the beginning of wisdom?

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Speaker 3: Probably not.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think you know, we've we've evolved technologically,

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Speaker 4: you know, but a lot of our basic instincts and

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Speaker 4: a lot of our prime fears and all of that.

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Speaker 3: I'm still the same. You know. We still get jealous,

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Speaker 3: we still get angry, we still get scared. You know,

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Speaker 3: we're still very very non reflective. We still don't look

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Speaker 3: inwardly to understand ourselves very much. So a lot of

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Speaker 3: that stuff. But yeah, on the other hand, you know,

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Speaker 3: and understayd aage we don't even need to because we

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Speaker 3: can ask chat GPT who we are and it'll tell us. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: So that.

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Speaker 1: Is terrifying, and I wish that that was a joke,

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Speaker 1: but I think that is more true than we want

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Speaker 1: to believe. I remember about before I started my PhD,

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Speaker 1: which is in psych but about seven years ago or something,

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Speaker 1: I did a presentation and it just happened to be

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Speaker 1: to a room full of psychologists, which was hilarious because

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Speaker 1: I was I was talking. So a friend of mine

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Speaker 1: is a psychologist, who organized for me to do this

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Speaker 1: talk to this group. And so I spent you know,

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Speaker 1: the first kind of thirty years of my working life

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Speaker 1: helping people get in shape, whatever that means. But getting

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Speaker 1: in shape physically is a psychological, emotional, sociological, behavioral, practical,

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Speaker 1: multi dimensional process. It's almost like it's not even about

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Speaker 1: your body. It's like your body is the consequence. It's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, and so I often talked to her about

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Speaker 1: how I would help people change, because everyone that comes

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Speaker 1: to a trainer, personal trainer, or a gym owner, like

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Speaker 1: I owned multiple gyms and I worked with I was

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Speaker 1: an excise physiologist all that, but everyone came for the

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Speaker 1: same reason, and that is they wanted to be different.

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Speaker 1: They wanted to look different, or feel different, or function differently,

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Speaker 1: or see the world or see themselves differently. And so

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Speaker 1: I got to a point where I realized how much

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Speaker 1: I knew about anatomy and physiology and energy systems and

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Speaker 1: nutrition was almost irrelevant unless I understood the human living

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Speaker 1: in the body so much of like and so anyway,

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Speaker 1: I did this talk to all of these syches, and

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Speaker 1: they're like, how do you know all this stuff? You

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Speaker 1: haven't studied psychology. I go, but I've been having conversations

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Speaker 1: with humans for thirty years about the same stuff, and

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Speaker 1: so you end up you know. So there's this academic process,

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Speaker 1: but there's also there's this experiential classroom where for me

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Speaker 1: and I've been in both a fair bid. It's like,

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Speaker 1: I think I almost learned more out in the world

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Speaker 1: at the coal face of change.

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Speaker 3: I mean, some of the most brilliant psychologists I've ever

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Speaker 3: met are car mechanics, physical trainers, musicians, artists, because they

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Speaker 3: they pay very very careful attention to human nature and

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Speaker 3: to and to how things interact with each other and

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Speaker 3: how they impact each other. And actually I think that

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Speaker 3: in some ways, I mean I remember a lot of

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Speaker 3: my psych training early on was you know, when did

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Speaker 3: Pierre J develop his stages of data? Okay, so you

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Speaker 3: know I could recite all those things, but it didn't

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Speaker 3: teach you anything about like human nature and psychology. So

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Speaker 3: I mean anybody who is psychologically minded emostly intelligent as

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Speaker 3: a person who can can see the way that there

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Speaker 3: that the circumstances and biology interact with each other to

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Speaker 3: two to cause something, so that there's there's there's a cause,

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Speaker 3: and that there's effect to that course, and if you

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Speaker 3: pay careful attention, you don't need a degree in psychology

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Speaker 3: to be able to do that. You just need to

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Speaker 3: be someone who pays attention. And you know, and I

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Speaker 3: think that most of us don't want to do that,

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Speaker 3: or we're not trained to do that, or we try

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Speaker 3: to to to just follow you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I guess is that a challenge because

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Speaker 1: when you when you went to through your training, And

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Speaker 1: I think you said, Dax something like you were just

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Speaker 1: talking about how one of the one of the lenses

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Speaker 1: through which you were viewing human behavioral, one of the

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Speaker 1: fields or one of the areas you've got training was

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Speaker 1: I think it was fraudy and psychology, right, or whatever

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Speaker 1: it is. You know, It's like then, which is great,

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Speaker 1: and you're trying to understand Freud or Jung or Whoever's

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Speaker 1: theories or but then at the same time, you don't

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Speaker 1: want to live in that echo chamber of ideology or philosophy,

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Speaker 1: like you want to know that, but also you want

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Speaker 1: to be able to think critically outside of somebody else's ideas,

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Speaker 1: right you as you know you as Blaze, I'm like cool.

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Speaker 1: I want to know what they think and what they taught.

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Speaker 1: I want to understand this approach to borderline personality disorder

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Speaker 1: or whatever it is. But I also want to know

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Speaker 1: just what you instinctively and intuitively think, because I know

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Speaker 1: one of the things I heard you saying you've treated

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Speaker 1: over five thousand people with bb bp D and a

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Speaker 1: lot of those are suicidal. And but I would I'm

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Speaker 1: more interested in just what you've learned than what the

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Speaker 1: textbooks sell me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think you know, if you think about, like,

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Speaker 3: you know, whatever car you're driving that you drove to work,

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Speaker 3: and you could say, you know, it'd be interesting to

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Speaker 3: know what Ford did when he made the model T

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Speaker 3: forward and you know what a car looked like then,

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Speaker 3: and all of that sort of stuff. It's sort of

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Speaker 3: interesting stuff. And obviously things built on each other to

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Speaker 3: get to where you are now. And so so some

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Speaker 3: of these ideas and some of these theories are you know,

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Speaker 3: you don't want to throw everything out and sort of interesting.

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Speaker 3: But at the same time, you know that that as

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Speaker 3: we understand the brain a little bit better, as we

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Speaker 3: understand the nature of you know, neurons that fire together,

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Speaker 3: wire together, as we understand the nature of transmitters, but

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Speaker 3: also as we understand behavior isn't better. As we understand

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Speaker 3: interconnectedness better, as we understand and you know, the way

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Speaker 3: that the mind works better, we have to continue to

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Speaker 3: adapt our technology and behavioral technology and therapy technology to

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Speaker 3: what's going on. But you know, so that on the

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Speaker 3: one hand, which which talk me about critical thinking, on

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Speaker 3: the one hand, is offset with that that you know,

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Speaker 3: when I was young, there was a thing and you know,

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Speaker 3: you're a young man yourself, but so you wouldn't know

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Speaker 3: about these things. But there's a thing, a thing called

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Speaker 3: a map. A map was a thing for the young listeners.

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Speaker 3: It was a paper. You would like look at it

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Speaker 3: and then you would calculate how far it took, you know,

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Speaker 3: to go from point A two point b, and how

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Speaker 3: long it would take and all sorts of things. And

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Speaker 3: you know, you had to use that part of your brain.

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Speaker 3: Now you just put on your you know, Google Maps

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Speaker 3: and it says, you know, in three one hundred meters

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Speaker 3: at your next McDonald's, take a ride. And yeah, so

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Speaker 3: you don't have to think critically in some ways. But

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Speaker 3: then at the same time, human beings are suffering and

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Speaker 3: we don't have a roadmap for every single brain to

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Speaker 3: tell us when to turn right and when to turn left.

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Speaker 3: So you know, you have to understand the very nature

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Speaker 3: of the person. And then how you know that you

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Speaker 3: don't have that much time to get them on the

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Speaker 3: right track. You know, Freudian psychoanalysis was like twenty years

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Speaker 3: of sitting there, you know, four times a week in

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Speaker 3: therapy talking about yourself. No one has that kind of

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Speaker 3: time anymore. And and but yeah, somebody's suffering. Somebody's suffering

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Speaker 3: right now. And by suffering, I mean there's psychological suffering,

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Speaker 3: but there's this kind of suffering that you're talking about.

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Speaker 3: Let's just say that somebody's overweight and they come to

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Speaker 3: you and they say, I want to change my body.

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Speaker 3: I want to change my aerobic capacity. I start working

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Speaker 3: out a lot. Yes, you know, they're suffering in a

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Speaker 3: different kind of way, but they're presenting the problem of

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Speaker 3: what it is that they want to change. So maybe

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Speaker 3: it's how they interact with with lovers, how they interact

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Speaker 3: with food, how they interact with their physical body, how

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Speaker 3: they interact with government, how they interact with the environment,

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Speaker 3: how they interact with you know, stingrays. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: don't know whatever it is that they want to change.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, And I guess also, like I

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Speaker 1: would have five people come and they would want let's

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Speaker 1: just say, in this hypothetical, they'd want the same outcome.

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Speaker 1: They want to build muscle, they want to lower body fat,

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Speaker 1: they want to be stronger, they want to change their shape.

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Speaker 1: Very common. Well, even those five people with almost identical

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Speaker 1: desired outcomes goals, well, it depends on a bunch of

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Speaker 1: variables as to how I would train them and how

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Speaker 1: I would treat and manage and guide and educate and

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Speaker 1: inform them, because the producers say, outcome might require five

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Speaker 1: different paths even though they want to achieve the same thing,

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Speaker 1: because everybody's genetically different. So exactly, I'm wondering with mental

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Speaker 1: health challenges and conditions and disorders, even if somebody shows

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Speaker 1: up with the exact same what seems to be the

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Speaker 1: exact same challenge or disorder, might it be true that

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Speaker 1: there are a myriad of different paths to achieve a

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Speaker 1: good outcome with that person beyond just the straight diagnosis

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Speaker 1: of the condition.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, Because you know, you can say there's a

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Speaker 3: person who is suffering with a lot of suissidality and

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Speaker 3: they have said borderland personality or call it whatever, depression,

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Speaker 3: they're suicidal. But okay, so then you said, what I'm

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Speaker 3: going to do is this is the treatment approach that

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Speaker 3: that I'm going to recommend. Now, let's just say you

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Speaker 3: had ten people in the same way that you have

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Speaker 3: showing up to your gym wanting similar outcomes, but without

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Speaker 3: exploring the context under which those people are living in.

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Speaker 3: You know, you don't have a fighting chance because one

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Speaker 3: of them is in an abusive relationship, the other one

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Speaker 3: has five children who are all struggling. The other one

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Speaker 3: has alcoholism in the family. The other one is just

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Speaker 3: about to lose their job. The other one has had

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Speaker 3: horrible side effects to antidepressant medication. And so, you know,

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Speaker 3: I think that we can become very, very formulaic, and

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Speaker 3: many of those cases formulas do work. But you know,

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Speaker 3: I think that when we're talking about life and death

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Speaker 3: without really deeply understanding where a person is coming from

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Speaker 3: and what the true want is, I don't think you

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Speaker 3: have a fighting chance of helping them.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if this is true, but it seems

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Speaker 1: to me that somebody in your position, like I know

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Speaker 1: that you're academically brilliant and very qualified and your knowledge

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Speaker 1: is vast. I listened to you for two hours. It's

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Speaker 1: fucking amazing. By the way, everyone have a listen to

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Speaker 1: that conversation. It's so good. It's on the armchair expert

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Speaker 1: with Blaze. But clearly you are a gifted human, like

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Speaker 1: you have high emotional intelligence, social intelligence, situational awareness. Like

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Speaker 1: I feel like, yeah, you're good, your world class amazing good.

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Speaker 1: But I also think you're pretty gifted as well, right.

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Speaker 3: I mean, look, I so I have a second degree

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Speaker 3: black belt in judo, and I trained with until I

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Speaker 3: was fifty seven with a lot of members who were

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Speaker 3: training for the Olympic judo team. I was a little

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Speaker 3: bit too old, because you know, when you're fifty seven

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Speaker 3: and these guys are twenty five. But why did I

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Speaker 3: do that? I did that because my coach, Jimmy Petro,

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Speaker 3: who actually won a bronze medal in the Sydney Olympics,

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Speaker 3: is a very talented, gifted, in so full intuitive person.

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Speaker 3: And I've had many, many, many coaches in different sports

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Speaker 3: who who you know, who go through the formulas, but

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Speaker 3: they don't have that wisdom that sort of allows them

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Speaker 3: to differentiate, differentiate you from another judoka or you know,

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Speaker 3: or run you know, fifty seven marathons and including one

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Speaker 3: in Melbourne where I did a six hour track race.

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Speaker 3: We ran three hours one way and then three hours

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Speaker 3: the other way. But the thing is in all of

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Speaker 3: those conditions were very, very different. And the thing about

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Speaker 3: you know, what you want is you want somebody who

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Speaker 3: knows how to follow the book and understands the physiology

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Speaker 3: and the anatomy in the way that you do. If

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Speaker 3: you're working the rear delts, that's one thing. If you're

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Speaker 3: working the the abs, that's another thing. And who can say, okay,

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Speaker 3: this is how we go into work the you know,

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Speaker 3: the different this head of the delta and then versus

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Speaker 3: this or whatever it is. You want to have someone

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Speaker 3: who has but at the same time, somebody might have

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Speaker 3: rheumatorial arthritis, somebody might have fibromiologist, somebody might have the

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Speaker 3: eating TIFFs cookies, the one that she's poising everybody with,

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Speaker 3: and you know, and have different kinds of problems. So

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Speaker 3: the so I think that understanding those kinds of things

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Speaker 3: in context and then and that the person that you're

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Speaker 3: looking for is somebody who does know the techniques but

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Speaker 3: also can see you in the context. And I think

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Speaker 3: that's the blend. And I've tried to shape my understanding

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Speaker 3: of people to sort of say, Okay, I get it,

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Speaker 3: you're depressed, you're anxious, you bipolar, your substance using, but

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Speaker 3: this is also the context under which you live. And

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Speaker 3: it seems to me, Craig that that that's one of

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Speaker 3: the things that you do. You know, when you're talking

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Speaker 3: about you know, the people that you would meet in

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Speaker 3: your gym's just like there aren't just five people who

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Speaker 3: want the exact same outcome, is that you're you're understanding

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Speaker 3: them in context. And I think that that's what the

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Speaker 3: difference is.

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Speaker 1: To what extent I'm just opening the theory of mind

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Speaker 1: or to what extent do you think people can understand

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Speaker 1: someone else's reality? And I know that's a very messy

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Speaker 1: broad but I feel like it's something most people don't

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Speaker 1: even really think about, like what is Blaze's experience right

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Speaker 1: now in this conversation on this podcast with this Australian

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Speaker 1: guy and this Australian girl. You know, I try to

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Speaker 1: be at least aware of that. To what extent do

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Speaker 1: people have that capacity? Do you think?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean I think, like with almost any talent

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Speaker 3: and ability, there are things that can be trained. You

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Speaker 3: know that there's ways in it which we can pay

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Speaker 3: attention to each other and sort of you know, in

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Speaker 3: terms of theory of mind saying oh, I wonder why

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Speaker 3: he did this, or I wonder why that joke, or

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Speaker 3: I wonder why the sort of engagement. I think that

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Speaker 3: we all have to a certain degree some capacity to

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Speaker 3: do it. I think that there are certain conditions you know, so,

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Speaker 3: for instance, in people with autism, it seems that that

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Speaker 3: that ability to understand somebody else's mind is can be

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Speaker 3: somewhat compromised. But I'll, you know, look, in as much

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Speaker 3: as I've done some really great work, I have a

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Speaker 3: friend who's got significant obsessive compulsive personality disorder o CPD,

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Speaker 3: who are very very rigid, and we were going to

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Speaker 3: go to a restaurant and you know, and on the

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Speaker 3: way there, I said, oh, they said, like, I'm really

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Speaker 3: really hungry. And I said, oh, what about this restaurant

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Speaker 3: that was over there, just thinking, okay, if you're that hungry,

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Speaker 3: maybe we could stop somewhere else. And they got really

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Speaker 3: angry at me, and then I got pissed off at them,

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Speaker 3: like why are you getting so angry at me? You know,

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Speaker 3: I thought you said you were hungry, and I was

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Speaker 3: making this other recommendation. So even somebody who understands the mind,

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Speaker 3: you know, I have my own reactions and then, you know,

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Speaker 3: and then I have to then stop and see that

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Speaker 3: I've reacted in a certain kind of way, step back

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Speaker 3: from it, and then say, okay, you I understand that

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Speaker 3: this person has got this rigid way of thinking. And

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Speaker 3: then I you know, I reacted to their react reactivity.

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Speaker 3: But that's because as human beings, we're emotional beings before

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Speaker 3: we're cognitive beings, and we react to other people's reactions.

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Speaker 3: And and how often do people have discussions with each

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Speaker 3: other and then just piss each other off? You know,

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Speaker 3: So even if you if you're talented and a certain thing.

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Speaker 3: You know, when I've run marathons, my last smile is

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Speaker 3: often but slower than my first one because I'm more

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Speaker 3: exhausted to my conditions have changed in that moment. So

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Speaker 3: when I'm reacting to people, and when I'm reacting to

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Speaker 3: patients and friends and stuff like that, you know, at

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Speaker 3: times I'm at my best and at times, you know,

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Speaker 3: even an expert is going to fall apart.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a big gap between what you know and

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Speaker 1: how you respond. I think it's like I talk about

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Speaker 1: things all the time to groups. You know, the medical constructs.

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Speaker 1: I could talk about it, you know, overthinking and internal

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Speaker 1: myhem and imposter syndrome and you know, obsessing and rumination

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Speaker 1: and all of these things that aren't super healthy for us.

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Speaker 1: While putting up my hand going I still do most

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Speaker 1: of them exactly. By the way, I'm pretty fucking good

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Speaker 1: at all of that, so.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, you know.

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Speaker 1: And I also say, if I wait till I've got

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Speaker 1: all my shit together before I tell you, or teach

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Speaker 1: you or support you, I'm never fucking leaving the house.

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Speaker 3: Exactly now that you're exact, You're exactly right, I mean,

432
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 3: I see, you know, it's interesting that I was. I

433
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 3: was reflecting on the on the diagnostic criteria of Borline

434
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 3: personality disorder, and the second criterion is intense interpersonal relationships

435
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 3: characterized by extremes of idealization devaluation. I am an intense dude,

436
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 3: you know, Like I identify with that criteria, Like I

437
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 3: get into it with people. I love it. I get,

438
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 3: you know, and and it can get you know, that

439
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 3: intensity can be a bit too much for people. And

440
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 3: so it's great because you know, I can use it

441
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 3: in uh in therapy, but it's you know, in your

442
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 3: you know, ordery garden variety relationships, it's just too much.

443
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,120
Speaker 3: You know, the fire that cooks your food is also

444
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 3: the fire that burns your house down. So there's quality

445
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 3: of intensity which could be like you know, delicious, and

446
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 3: under some circumstances, it's just overbearing in others. So, you know,

447
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 3: I also think that the context under which who you

448
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 3: are shows up. You know, you going to teach, you know,

449
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 3: physical education to a group of I don't know, maybe

450
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 3: the accountants here are going to be insulted, you know

451
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 3: who want to just like learn about balance sheets. You know,

452
00:26:58,040 --> 00:26:59,919
Speaker 3: they'd say, what are you doing here? That's all we want?

453
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 3: Did you hear for you're in the face? You know?

454
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: Yeah? I asked not everybody, but a lot of guests

455
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 1: this similar question, just because it's for my own curiosity.

456
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,959
Speaker 1: So my my research is around metapception, which is, you know,

457
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: understanding how people see us and perceive and experience us

458
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,719
Speaker 1: like almost like the question at the center of the

459
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: research is what's it like being around me for others?

460
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: What do you think? How do you do you ever

461
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: think about that? Do you ever think about and not

462
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 1: in a self loathing way, but a self awareness curiosity way.

463
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: I probably think about it too much because I've spent

464
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 1: six years studying it. But do you ever think about

465
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: what's it like being around me for them? And do

466
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 1: you have an insight?

467
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 3: Yeah? So there's a couple of ways, you know, and

468
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 3: I'm going to have a very broad answer. So I

469
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 3: remember Bob Marley was asked what's it like to be famous?

470
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 3: And he sort of thought about as he says, I

471
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 3: don't know, I'm not famous to me and and you know,

472
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 3: so so so the only way in which I know,

473
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 3: you know, that people have a certain experience with me

474
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 3: is that a they tell me. But but then I

475
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 3: also get like letters, you know, and emails saying, you know,

476
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 3: my child was very suicidal and just like so grateful

477
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 3: for you, and you know, so you get that kind

478
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 3: of feedback. I think I would drive myself nuts if

479
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 3: I had somebody like myself around, because I'm so constantly

480
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 3: you know, kind of into the mind and into questioning

481
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 3: and that you know, metacognition that I think I can

482
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 3: get to be a little bit too much. But at

483
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 3: the same time that you know, you know, like being

484
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 3: on Dacshapard, being on your show, you know that there's

485
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 3: there's a certain dose of who I am that people

486
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 3: can tolerate and find interesting, and you know, so so

487
00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 3: I get it to a certain point. But you know,

488
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 3: on the other hand, you know, I travel all around

489
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 3: the world, I teach all over the world. I don't

490
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 3: have that many friends, you know, and I understand why,

491
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 3: you know, I think I'm a bit much and so

492
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 3: so there's also this concept of sollipsism, you know that

493
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 3: the ancient Greek philosophy that you know, the only thing

494
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 3: that you can ever really know is your own mind,

495
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 3: and so anything that you can know to be, you know,

496
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 3: perhaps true. You know, you can get into that kind

497
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 3: of philosophy that even you and for all just projections

498
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 3: of my mind, you know.

499
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 1: And everything like that.

500
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 3: You can get caught up in that kind of thinking,

501
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 3: solecistic thinking. But you know, I I think that in

502
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 3: the context of the work that I do. I think that,

503
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 3: you know, like people that sort of appreciate me, in

504
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 3: the context of of ordinary life, I turn everything into

505
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 3: a philosophical question, and I think it's you know, it

506
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 3: can be a that much. I mean, you know, it

507
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 3: would be I remember speaking about accountants. I once went

508
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 3: to a fundraiser that was being held by an accounting firm,

509
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 3: and I don't think I've ever been suicidal except that

510
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 3: one time, because we were talking about were the latest

511
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 3: uh you know, internal revenue service software, uh you know

512
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 3: software and regulations and stuff like that, and they were

513
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 3: so into it, and I just not only did I

514
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 3: not understand it. I wasn't actually that interested, but I

515
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 3: can under see. I can see that. You know, if

516
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 3: if crickets your game, you know, that's what you're going

517
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 3: to follow. But in the States they'll play basketball or baseball,

518
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 3: you know. So it's it's that's where theory of mind

519
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 3: actually sort of comes in. But yeah, so how I'm experienced, Uh,

520
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 3: I think like a curiosity really, you know, it's like

521
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 3: it's kind of an odd guy.

522
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a bunch of mates who, like most

523
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: most drink, smoke, party, do all the things and not

524
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: so much smoking but drinking. And I've never been drunk.

525
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 1: I've never had alcohol. I don't drink, and not that

526
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 1: I'm suggesting that's a recommendation for anyone. And like, I've

527
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: always just been fascinated with training and the mind and

528
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: human performance and potential. And sometimes I sit and talk

529
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: to some of my mates and I just see their

530
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: eyes glaze over. Oh shut the fuck up.

531
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 3: There you go exactly.

532
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was.

533
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 3: In Iceland, and I did. I spent twenty minutes in

534
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 3: a in a ice bath that was it was a

535
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 3: two degree celsius wow, and it was cold. It was cold,

536
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 3: and you know, it's just through you know, them of

537
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 3: methodology and just like breathing technique and stuff like that,

538
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 3: and you know, and I look at the science of

539
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 3: aging and the science of cellular health and stuff like that,

540
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 3: and you know, so the thing is, I'm speaking about

541
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 3: it in a very earnest way about not only not

542
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 3: necessarily longevity, but healthy healthy living. You know that what

543
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 3: we put into our body, what we how we what

544
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 3: we surround our body with. I'm thinking about that, and

545
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 3: they just thinking like, wow, that was crazy, man, Like

546
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 3: what'd you do? You know, like, no, it's not about that.

547
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 3: And then you know, it's not about that. It's about like,

548
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 3: how do you take care of the mitochondria in yourselves?

549
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 2: Uh?

550
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 3: You know, your the ability of the mind to regulate itself,

551
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 3: to sort of treat itself with kindness and compassion. You

552
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 3: know that you can do techniques and it's sort of

553
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, when I do five days silent meditations,

554
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 3: it's like what you can't stop talking? What are you

555
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 3: talking about? You know, it's it's but these are like

556
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 3: I'm not saying it for saying it. I'm saying it

557
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 3: because these are like the things that drive the best

558
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 3: version of yourself, you know, and you know I get

559
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 3: a bit extreme at times, you know, but but it's

560
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 3: not about that. But you know, to your point you

561
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 3: start talking about there's either like okay, you're or that

562
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 3: gleazing over that you described.

563
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's funny. And then they will sometimes, like

564
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: my training partner, who I love, he will start talking

565
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 1: about an engine in a car, and I'm like, oh,

566
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: get me out of here, Like I like cars, but

567
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: I don't talk to you about the manifold or the

568
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 1: gasket or whatever.

569
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 3: The fuck you.

570
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, help, help anyone. So tell us about

571
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: your work, tell us about and I know you do

572
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: a lot of different things, but you know, the bulk

573
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: of your work over the last decade, or to tell

574
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 1: us what that is if you would.

575
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I've I've been profoundly impacted, you know, by

576
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 3: a human suffering and impacted in the sense of like

577
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 3: it's impacted me. But I've also seen the impact on

578
00:33:54,760 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 3: other people psychological and emotional pains so severe that people

579
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 3: want to die, that people want to know kill themselves.

580
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:09,399
Speaker 3: I am. I think I'm a bit naive and sort

581
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 3: of I live in a not quite wicked like fairy

582
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 3: tale but just like I tend to, I see so

583
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 3: much ore and so much potential in life and I

584
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 3: and I want people to have that same experience, but

585
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 3: I know that they don't, and I know that they

586
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 3: suffer tremendously because of emotional pain. And any single one

587
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 3: of us who's had severe emotional pain, maybe you lost

588
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 3: your loved one, and you can remember just how much

589
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 3: pain you were in, and if you were to think

590
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 3: about that pain for eternity, for the rest of your life,

591
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 3: you could think about, like, I don't want to do

592
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 3: this anymore, that I would want to die rather than

593
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 3: have to suffer with so much emotional pain. And in

594
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,439
Speaker 3: the people that I treat as a very high suicide rate,

595
00:34:57,880 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 3: and you know, you can you know, we have a

596
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 3: lot of empathy with people who have, say pain because

597
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 3: of cancer or something like that. Yes, and you see

598
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 3: the cancer, you say, Okay, yeah, I can see how

599
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 3: much you're suffering. But emotional pain can be maybe worse

600
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 3: than that kind of physical pain. And then all the

601
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 3: techniques that I tried to help people emotional pain, none

602
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,280
Speaker 3: of them seem to work as well as Dialectical behavior

603
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 3: therapy also known as DBT that incorporates some of the

604
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 3: things that we were talking about, you know, healthier living

605
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 3: through emotion regulation, mindfulness strategies, being more effective inter personally,

606
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 3: being able to tolerate difficult moments more effectively, and using

607
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 3: that technology with this group of patients and seeing tremendous benefit.

608
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 3: But most recently, the thing that I was observing was

609
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 3: that a lot of suffering came because we were dissatisfied

610
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 3: with who we were. And that could just be something like, oh,

611
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 3: I'm a little bit overweight, you know, I'm not intelligent enough,

612
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,720
Speaker 3: and that sort of stuff. So some sort of minor

613
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 3: self criticism all the way to extreme self hatred, and

614
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:27,399
Speaker 3: often the experience of just never having felt good enough

615
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 3: from early childhood and just being told that you weren't

616
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 3: good enough and then beginning to believe it yourself then

617
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 3: led to a point where self hatred consumed the person,

618
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 3: and it was beyond self criticism, beyond self blame, beyond

619
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 3: self judgment. It sort of encompassed the whole and people

620
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 3: felt that the world would be better off without them,

621
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 3: And so tragically, some of the people who took their

622
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 3: lives had a lot of self hatred. And so I

623
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 3: decided to start, you know, to write a book on

624
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 3: self hatred, which is I Hate Myself, which was the

625
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 3: reason I was on the Dak Shepherd show. Yeah, and

626
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 3: you know, and now in a few months my book

627
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 3: I Hate Myself? Now why it is a workbook to

628
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 3: accompany that that book so amazing.

629
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 1: So the book everyone is called I Hate Myself. Overcome

630
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 1: self loathing and realize why you're wrong about you? Tif

631
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:28,919
Speaker 1: Do you want to talk? Do you want to talk

632
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: about what you have to talk about or do you

633
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 1: just want to sit and listen? I want to be sensitive?

634
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 2: Go ahead, go ahead, and well, what don't.

635
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: You tell Blaze or Okay, So Tiff coaches a few people,

636
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 1: a bunch of people, and last week one of the

637
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 1: people that you coached committed suicide, like literally four or

638
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: five days ago. And this has been you know, we

639
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 1: muck around him. We're silly here. But that's why when

640
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 1: I listened to Blaze a small and I spoke to

641
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 1: you before I went, I think this is going to

642
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 1: be an interesting and relevant and perhaps powerful conversation for you.

643
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 1: So I'm going to ask you a question. Then I'm

644
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 1: going to get out of the way for the professional

645
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: who all of a sudden is becoming the interviewer not

646
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: the interviewee. How are you going with it?

647
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,919
Speaker 2: As expected? I think so it's today, will be one week,

648
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 2: it was last Friday, and it's Friday Friday morning now. Yeah,

649
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 2: And it's been a ride. It's been very different every day,

650
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 2: and I feel like it's some days it's real and

651
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 2: some days it's not. And it's yeah, I don't know,

652
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,439
Speaker 2: it's hard, and it's different every day.

653
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: And to put this in context, you and this guy, ye,

654
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 1: can we say his name.

655
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 2: Or no, just let's go first name.

656
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: Perhaps, So you and Ben were in contact every day. Yes,

657
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: so you spoke to him regularly, but at the very

658
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: least there was me sing every day because you were

659
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 1: kind of working with him.

660
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 2: Yes.

661
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:04,839
Speaker 1: So I've worked with him for a year.

662
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 2: We did sessions every two weeks and checked in every

663
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 2: single day for interactions to yeah, stay accountable and stay

664
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 2: in touch.

665
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I guess this is not uncommon what you're hearing, bis, Yeah.

666
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,720
Speaker 3: I mean this is this is you know, I started

667
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 3: my program in two thousand and seven and there hasn't

668
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 3: been a single day where I haven't worked with a

669
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 3: suicidal individual or maybe multiple suicidal people, and and sort

670
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 3: of just like sending you compassion so much love, it's

671
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 3: to lose somebody that you cared about so much. I

672
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 3: think it's sort of it. You know, you you question,

673
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 3: you know, did I do something wrong? Could I have

674
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 3: done something differently? What was going on? What did I miss?

675
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 3: And all of that stuff, and you know, and we

676
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 3: never know that li of others. We never know the

677
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 3: minds of others. You know, we can know some as

678
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 3: aspects of it, but you know, they're you know, they're

679
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 3: probably suffering tremendously. And and you know, like I always

680
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 3: think that a person's always doing the best that they

681
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 3: can do at any given moment, and and you know,

682
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 3: they tried their best, you know, until they couldn't try anymore.

683
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 3: And and you know maybe you know, I mean, we

684
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 3: can always second guess ourselves, but you know, we always

685
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,439
Speaker 3: second guess ourselves why when people die, But we never

686
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,760
Speaker 3: second guess ourselves when people live. You know, we don't say,

687
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 3: you know, like, oh, this person you know tragically took

688
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 3: their life. Could I have done something different? But when

689
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,879
Speaker 3: we say, wow, this person's living, they're living their best life,

690
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,320
Speaker 3: Like what could I have done differently? Or what should

691
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,879
Speaker 3: I do? Or you know, it's it's it's it's only

692
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 3: in this kind of context, so you know, so anyways,

693
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 3: just sending you, you know, love, compassion, and just like

694
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 3: you know, just recognizing how absolutely devastating and painful that

695
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 3: is to lose somebody that you care about and somebody

696
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:07,359
Speaker 3: that you work with.

697
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: What is the relationship to feel free to jump in blaze?

698
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:17,359
Speaker 1: What is the correlational relationship between borderline personality disorder and

699
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: suicidal ideation?

700
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 3: Well, I don't remember having a patient with bortline percentage

701
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 3: disorder who hasn't had suicidal ideation. I think, I mean,

702
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 3: I think, I think that the statistics are that almost

703
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 3: anyone who's got bortline percent he disorder has had either

704
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 3: passive or active suicidal ideation. Passive suicidal ideation is more

705
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 3: the idea that you know, I just wish I wasn't around.

706
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 3: I wish I would die, you know, if an accident happened,

707
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 3: I wouldn't care. Active suicidal ideation is the idea that

708
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 3: you're going to take active measures to make that happen,

709
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 3: and then there's suicidal behavior. But I'd say ninety five

710
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,439
Speaker 3: percent of not more certainly of the patients that I've

711
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 3: treated have had either active or or either active or

712
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 3: passive suicidal ideation, and many of them have had suicide attempts.

713
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: And I remember, I can't remember the exact number, but

714
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: I remember you sharing the statistics, the comparative statistics between

715
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: what the normal outcomes are versus the five thousand patients

716
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: that you've worked with, and you know, it's quite a contrast.

717
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, So what the research had said is

718
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 3: that if you look up, you know, what's the suicide

719
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 3: rate and boradline personality disorder, they'll say, you know, for

720
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 3: people who are hospitalized, it's about ten percent. That's you know,

721
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:53,240
Speaker 3: there's some debate about that number, but that's the number

722
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 3: that's most often thrown out, you know. And so we've

723
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 3: had more than five thousand people come through our program.

724
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:01,839
Speaker 3: So if you're to say you're going to lose ten

725
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 3: percent of them, like we should have had ten percent

726
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 3: or five hundred day by suicide, you know, as far

727
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:14,720
Speaker 3: as we know, we've lost fewer than thirty. So thirty people.

728
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 3: So I mean, any death by suicide is a tragedy,

729
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 3: of course, but you know that means that there's at

730
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 3: least four hundred people who might have died, who haven't you.

731
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: Know, I know this is very big and very complicated,

732
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: but for somebody who has got somebody in there, or

733
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 1: but who who is in that state? And I know

734
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: there's no three step plan, but is there anything that

735
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 1: you can help us with too, even to how do

736
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: we approach it or them? How do we have a conversation?

737
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: Is there something that we should do or shouldn't do?

738
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 1: Like for a lot of people, this is overwhelming and

739
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 1: it's almost like too hard basket, I'm just not going

740
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 1: to do anything about it.

741
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, one thing is, first of all, never ever

742
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 3: ever think that it's attention seeking. So sometimes you know,

743
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,720
Speaker 3: they say, oh, you know, they're saying they're suicidal, they're not. Really,

744
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 3: it's it's it's you know, it's it's attention seeking behavior.

745
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 3: If if you were to say to me that you

746
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,240
Speaker 3: were going to get a Kiwi tattooed in your forehead,

747
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 3: I could say, well, it's it's attention seeking behavior. But

748
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 3: I say, okay, well maybe you go and you do

749
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,359
Speaker 3: that and then you look ridiculous, And then I say, okay,

750
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 3: well you did that, But so what you know, you're

751
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 3: going to have to deal with it. And I might

752
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 3: say that it's attention seeking or not attention seeking. But

753
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 3: whenever somebody says to me that they're going to kill themselves,

754
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 3: I never even if it is attention seeking, I always

755
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 3: take it seriously. That's the first thing. The second thing

756
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 3: is that talking about suicide does not make somebody more suicidal.

757
00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 3: You know, if you say you don't drink alcohol, if

758
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 3: I start talking about wine and vodka, that you're not

759
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,280
Speaker 3: likely to go and drink wine and vodka just because

760
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 3: I'm talking about it, you know, So just be Sometimes

761
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 3: people say, oh, if you start talking about it, then

762
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 3: people are going to think about it. I talk about

763
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,399
Speaker 3: suicide all the time. I've never been suicidal. I don't

764
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 3: think about it as entertainer. It's not my you know,

765
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 3: the thing that I think about. But so if somebody

766
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 3: is struggling, and I think especially if somebody is struggling

767
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 3: with darkness, with depression, with anxiety, with substance use, I

768
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 3: think it's a very fair question to say, hey, you know,

769
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 3: do you ever does it ever get really bad? Do

770
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 3: you think that you want to end it all? And

771
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 3: many people will, but just because you've asked the question

772
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that they're going to do that. It just

773
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 3: tells you that they're like, hey, we can talk about this,

774
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 3: you know, we can talk about this stuff, and it's

775
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 3: not the end of the world until you actually kill yourself,

776
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 3: and then that is the end of the world. So

777
00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 3: it's like, let's like, let's you know, you actually not

778
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,240
Speaker 3: talking about it puts people much more risk than talking

779
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,760
Speaker 3: about it. So I'm just saying, you know, like bringing

780
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 3: up suicide and public awareness campaigns, speaking to friends who

781
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 3: are very depressed, you know, who've or who maybe are

782
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,359
Speaker 3: shutting down. But sometimes, I mean there are people who

783
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 3: you had absolutely no idea that that's what was on

784
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 3: their mind. They seem to be having perfectly happy lives.

785
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 3: But for many people that you can see that there's

786
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 3: a darkness that's come over them, that there's a withdrawal,

787
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 3: there's there's a there's a change in how they interact

788
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 3: with you that you know, you might start saying, you know,

789
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 3: I see you're isolating more, you're withdrawing more, You're you know,

790
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,919
Speaker 3: more depressed, you're having a harder time. Maybe they've lost

791
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 3: their job or something like that. I think it's you know,

792
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 3: it's not like every time say hey, are you suicidal,

793
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 3: but it's it's in those in those contexts, you know,

794
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 3: to sort of to sort of quest wonder about that sometimes, could.

795
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,800
Speaker 1: You just quick define, just for some of our listeners

796
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: who are going, what exactly is borderline personality disorder? Could

797
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: you give us a layman's kind of explanation of what

798
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: that is?

799
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:16,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, Bordline personity disorder is a condition where a person

800
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 3: has a difficult time regulating or controlling their emotional responses,

801
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 3: and that when their emotions are very all over the place,

802
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 3: like excessive happiness, excessive anger, jealousy, sadness, they then turn

803
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 3: to what we would call us maladapted or self destructive

804
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 3: waste in order to regulate them. So people might turn

805
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,879
Speaker 3: to cutting, They might turn to cutting themselves. They might

806
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 3: turn to alcohol, They might tend to spending. Now that

807
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 3: can you know? People might say, well, that sounds like

808
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 3: bipolar disorder. The difference is that the kind of mood

809
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 3: states that people with borderline personality to get into are

810
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 3: or don't last very long. They last for sometimes minutes,

811
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:09,839
Speaker 3: sometimes hours, sometimes a day or so, but they don't

812
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:14,320
Speaker 3: last weeks so and often often that reactivity of mood,

813
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 3: that disregulation, that inability to control their emotions has to

814
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 3: do with how they interact with other people. So, you know,

815
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 3: you say something to me, I react to what you say,

816
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 3: and then it escalates. You know, people feel judged, people

817
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 3: feel criticized, and and you know, I might say something

818
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,399
Speaker 3: you know, critical of you, Craig, and then and then

819
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 3: you might say, well, f you. And but you know what,

820
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 3: I'm going to go to the gym and I'm going

821
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 3: to work it out and then I'm going to hang

822
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 3: out with some friends. But if you were then to

823
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 3: take it so personally that you you know, uh, restruggling

824
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 3: with it. So they have struggled in regulating their emotional experience.

825
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 3: They have struggled in regulating their friendships. So they can

826
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:02,839
Speaker 3: get very reconnected very quickly to people. They can then

827
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 3: suddenly fall out of connection with people. They can then

828
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 3: idealize that person by you know, just thinking they're the

829
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 3: best person in the world, and then they can devalue

830
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 3: them the next day. They have trouble regulating their thinking,

831
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 3: so they can get very paranoid. They can make a

832
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 3: lot of bad interpretations of, you know, of what a

833
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 3: person's thinking. So I don't know, is that a pen

834
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 3: that you've got to your lips? I might say, I

835
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 3: might say to myself, oh, you know, he's actually not

836
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 3: that interested in what I'm saying. The reason he's holding

837
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 3: his pen is because he wants to, you know, write

838
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 3: something and doodle. You know. So what happens in people

839
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,279
Speaker 3: with boreline person you or they'll see some sort of

840
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 3: action that another person is doing it, they'll misinterpret or

841
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,399
Speaker 3: they'll make wrong assumptions. And partly they do that because

842
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 3: they've been right in the past, so sometimes you know

843
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,760
Speaker 3: that that's what's happened. You know, they have trouble regulating

844
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 3: their sense of self. So there's and these inabilities to

845
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 3: regulate cause a lot of emotional pain. So when a

846
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:13,359
Speaker 3: person has a cluster of engagement with the world where

847
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 3: they can control their emotions very well, where they have

848
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 3: very chaotic relationships, where they have an unstable sense of

849
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 3: who they are, and when they can get very paranoid

850
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 3: about other people's intentions, you know, you'd want to think

851
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:29,720
Speaker 3: about borderline personality disorder.

852
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 1: Does everybody who has they pay a hide themselves?

853
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 3: No? No, And that's an interesting an important question, you know,

854
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 3: it's you know, one of the criteria is that the

855
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 3: fourth criterion might include eating disorder behaviors and BPD, but

856
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 3: you only need five out of nine criteria in order

857
00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 3: to meet the diagnostic criteria for bortline personality disorder. So

858
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 3: a person could have normal eating habits and not have BPD,

859
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 3: or they could have you know, disordered eating, or they

860
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 3: could have disordered eating and not have BPD. So you

861
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 3: don't have to have self hatred to have BPD. But

862
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 3: I have found that many people with born on personality

863
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 3: you just sort of do, have self hatred. I've also

864
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 3: found a group of very very high functioning people athletes, artists, musicians,

865
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:34,879
Speaker 3: CEOs of company who are very very self critical, very

866
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 3: self judgmental, very self blaming, very self hating. But they've

867
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 3: used that as the rocket fudal to get themselves to

868
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 3: the top of their profession, you know, by saying like

869
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 3: I am going to prove like I'm so worthless, I'm

870
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 3: going to prove to the world that I'm not worthless.

871
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 3: So that's a cohort that has come out of the

872
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:57,919
Speaker 3: work that I've done, because initially I was thinking about

873
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 3: it just in the context of BB but all of

874
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:04,839
Speaker 3: a sudden I had doctors and musicians and artists and

875
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 3: CEOs reaching out to me and saying, hey, I don't

876
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 3: have born on percentives for but I also don't like

877
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 3: myself very much.

878
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 1: I feel like there's a or there can be a

879
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 1: relationship between, you know, self loathing and self awareness, like

880
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 1: self loathing as I'm a fucking idiot every time I

881
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 1: get in this situation, I do that I am. I'm

882
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 1: such a more for me, that's versus you know, so

883
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 1: I didn't do a great job there? What did I

884
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:38,359
Speaker 1: get wrong? What could I do better? How did I

885
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 1: plan if I was going to do that tomorrow? What

886
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 1: might I do different? You know? It seems like me

887
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 1: one's destructive ones potentially you know, hopefully productive. Can they

888
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 1: Can one become the other? Can we kind of morph

889
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: the self loathing if we try to pull the emotion

890
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:59,240
Speaker 1: out of its good point?

891
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 3: And thought about that, and I steal it as an

892
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 3: idea for my next book, Welcome but Welcome. But it's

893
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's if if you know, if you

894
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 3: keep walking into a door and then you keep like

895
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 3: wondering what that is, and if you can just stand

896
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 3: back from it and just say, I'm doing this thing

897
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 3: called walking, and there's something called a door there, and

898
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 3: every single time I do this, I get you know,

899
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,279
Speaker 3: like I bump into it and my head hurts. So

900
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 3: when a second, okay, I see what's going on here. Wait,

901
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 3: there's this thing called a handle. What about that thing?

902
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 3: You know? So that so I think, like being able

903
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:44,320
Speaker 3: to stand back from the automaticity of behavior, the automaticity

904
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 3: of thinking allows for the kind of self reflection that

905
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 3: you're describing.

906
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,959
Speaker 1: It's very hard to when you're trying to have any

907
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: any level of self awareness and self regulation. Like, obviously,

908
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 1: I can't be objective about me because I'm me, right,

909
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:04,719
Speaker 1: I'm always looking at me through the me lens and

910
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 1: everything that I you know, the whole. But trying to

911
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 1: move at least to move towards some consciousness of that,

912
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:13,800
Speaker 1: you know. So when I like, I was a morbidly

913
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:18,359
Speaker 1: obese kid, and I talk about being the fattest kid

914
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 1: in the school, and people say to me, don't say

915
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 1: that about yourself, I go, but I literally was the

916
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 1: fattest kid in the school. That's an objective reality. That's

917
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 1: not me throwing myself under the bus, you know. That's like, well,

918
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 1: I was morbidly obese, I was over two hundred pounds

919
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:39,400
Speaker 1: in your language, when I was fourteen, So I was

920
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 1: a big kid. Now that doesn't mean I hate me.

921
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:45,760
Speaker 1: That means that was part of my journey. And I

922
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 1: understand how I ended up in that state. And what

923
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:51,439
Speaker 1: I did was I got better. I learned, I asked

924
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 1: better questions. I recognize self destructive behaviors, you know, which

925
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,480
Speaker 1: is not say I created this perfect version of myself.

926
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 1: I definitely didn't. But yeah, the amount of people who

927
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:05,880
Speaker 1: hide it when I when I tell stories about myself,

928
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 1: historical stories, because they think I'm hiding myself, whereas I'm

929
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:14,439
Speaker 1: not at all. I'm just glading insights from where I

930
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 1: was and where I went.

931
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 3: Well, so this is another interesting point. So so Jimmy Pedro,

932
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:25,439
Speaker 3: my judo coach, was my my judo trainer. I've got

933
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 3: this marine. His name is Billy, and he's my personal

934
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 3: trainer and I just work out with him all the

935
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 3: time and he is, you know, he's as marine as

936
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 3: they get. And one of the things that he told

937
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 3: me recently is that when he was a kid, he

938
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:45,759
Speaker 3: was very, very overweight. I mean, you look at him now,

939
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:50,360
Speaker 3: he's just like this lean, shredded guy. And to this day,

940
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 3: if if you call him fat, if unravels him because

941
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,359
Speaker 3: because what happened is is that you know, that was

942
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 3: paired with a very very painful time in his life,

943
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 3: and and and you know, and so you know, I said, listen,

944
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:09,440
Speaker 3: you do you do you train me physically, I'll train

945
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 3: you mentally. But it's it's you know, because I think

946
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 3: that there's a difference between an objective truth that you

947
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 3: were morbidly obese and that you were overweight, but it

948
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 3: was paired with a ridicule. If that was paired with

949
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 3: teasing and tormenting and all of those sorts of things

950
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 3: and some of the you know, rejection by you know,

951
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:33,800
Speaker 3: girls and whatever it was, that then could become painful

952
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 3: for you. And if you had an identical twin brother

953
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 3: raised in a completely different school system where they were

954
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:41,359
Speaker 3: compassionate to you and they said, you know, don't treat

955
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 3: yourself that way, don't say those things about you, you know,

956
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,080
Speaker 3: the outcome is going to be different because of the

957
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:53,400
Speaker 3: pairing of narrative to that physical state. And you know,

958
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 3: if you know, people like you say hey, you know,

959
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 3: hey that guy, you know, you might react differently than

960
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 3: if if somebody just you know, like if you never

961
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 3: had weight problems in Spanish, my mother. There's Spanish, and

962
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 3: there's a, there's a there's a So the word gordodal

963
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:16,919
Speaker 3: geo r d o means fat one and if if

964
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 3: if you say it's it's it's a it's a term

965
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 3: of endearment, like hey dude, hey bro, hey guy, it's

966
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 3: hey in Spanish, it's hey fat one to them, and

967
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 3: so it's like but if you were really fat, then

968
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 3: you know you might sort of take take it personally. Yeah,

969
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 3: I love it.

970
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 1: My name all through school, by the way, was Jumbo.

971
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 1: So that'll give you an insight. Yeah, okay, so we

972
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 1: need to wind up, but let's let's give us a

973
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: quick snapshot of the book. You know what amazed me

974
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 1: when you were talking uh to Dax was that you

975
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 1: said when you when you started to think about how

976
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 1: many people hate themselves and all of the intersecting kind

977
00:57:57,320 --> 00:57:59,920
Speaker 1: of variables around that you went, oh, I wonder what

978
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 1: the research and I wonder what the research says, and

979
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 1: I'll go and find those ten thousand papers. And I

980
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 1: think you said something like you found three and I

981
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 1: basically said fuck all, Like it seems like a really

982
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:17,360
Speaker 1: common phenomenon that is very under researched.

983
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 3: Exactly and so that was exactly it. You know, when

984
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 3: I was starting to see the correlation between suicidality and

985
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 3: and self hatred, I thought, you know, people study the

986
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 3: correlation between substance use and suicidality or depression in sucidiality,

987
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 3: its schizophrenian suicidality. But why was this construct, this idea

988
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 3: that was so powerful not being studied. And so I thought, okay,

989
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 3: well there must be studies out there, and there was nothing.

990
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 3: And you know, it was shocking to me. You know

991
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:03,960
Speaker 3: that the that that we are you know, earlier on

992
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 3: you talked about have we advanced since over the last

993
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:10,640
Speaker 3: two thousand years. I mean, these are fundamental questions about

994
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:12,920
Speaker 3: a sense of self that includes this kind of thing.

995
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 3: It just isn't that much research on it. And yet

996
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:20,959
Speaker 3: it is an experience that so many people experience, many

997
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 3: many more than I imagined. And again it doesn't have

998
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:29,120
Speaker 3: to be fundamental core self hatred, but just a self dissatisfaction.

999
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,760
Speaker 3: I mean, many listeners are going to be not so

1000
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:35,960
Speaker 3: happy with themselves because you know, of self judgment or

1001
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 3: self criticism of self dissatisfaction. But if left unchecked, that

1002
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 3: can become you know, self hatred, and what happens is

1003
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 3: if you're a self hating person and you have children,

1004
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:55,160
Speaker 3: you're transmitting an okayness, not in an explicit way, but

1005
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 3: an implicit way that you know, like that that self

1006
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 3: dissatisfaction that there's something okay about it.

1007
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:05,240
Speaker 1: So wow, I'm excited to get that book and read it.

1008
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 1: It's so good to talk to you. I know how

1009
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 1: those those two spoke to you for two hours? Now,

1010
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 1: how can people find you, doc? How can they follow you?

1011
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:20,080
Speaker 1: Connect with you? Once again? Just quickly, I'll do the

1012
01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 1: prim i for you. The book is called I Hate Myself,

1013
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 1: Overcome Self Loathing and Realize why You're wrong about you,

1014
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:35,200
Speaker 1: Doctor BLASEE Guare. Yeah, how can people connect with you

1015
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 1: and follow you?

1016
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:36,200
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1017
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 3: So, I mean I used to be a very big

1018
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 3: it wasn't social media, and then I started getting rid

1019
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:45,600
Speaker 3: of everything except that I didn't need it for us,

1020
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:49,160
Speaker 3: you know, sort of promotional material and everything. So I'm

1021
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 3: on Instagram, you know, at blaze, m D b l

1022
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 3: A I S E M D. And I have a

1023
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 3: friend who's just told me I have to start doing

1024
01:00:57,200 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 3: TikTok because that's the way I'm going to get the

1025
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:04,160
Speaker 3: message across and so I guess you know. So I

1026
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:07,919
Speaker 3: started a TikTok, but I haven't that posted anything just yet.

1027
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 3: And my program here at Harvard is the number three

1028
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 3: the worst East so three east dot org.

1029
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, cool. Well, we appreciate you so much, thank

1030
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 1: you for being so generous with your time and wisdom

1031
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 1: and energy. We'll say goodbye off air, but TIF did

1032
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:28,080
Speaker 1: you enjoy that, Tiff?

1033
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:29,240
Speaker 3: I did very much?

1034
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 2: Thank you?

1035
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:31,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you.

1036
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 3: Thanks again. I'm sorry for everything that you've you've gone through,

1037
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:39,600
Speaker 3: and no, I appreciate you and your listeners for tuning

1038
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 3: in and putting up with you. Craig, so that's a

1039
01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 3: good thing.

1040
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:46,919
Speaker 1: I'm a lot. You've already diagnized me. I'm a fucking even.

1041
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 1: I don't like me, and I am me. Maybe I

1042
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 1: should get your book exactly

1043
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:53,439
Speaker 3: Good two coffee so it'll make you better