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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Fitzi and Whippo podcast.

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Speaker 2: We are so excited about this and we love this man.

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Speaker 2: We haven't had him in the studio for such a

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Speaker 2: long time. But Mirror Mirror, Love and Hate premieres tonight

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Speaker 2: seven point thirty on Channel Chain.

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Speaker 1: Also tomorrow night as well.

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Speaker 2: You can catch it, but it's the magnificent Toddy Today morning.

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Speaker 1: Good morning mate.

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Speaker 3: I'm always fascinated to hear what your project is and

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Speaker 3: to hear you describe it, and then I love where

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Speaker 3: our conversations go every time talk us through what you've

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Speaker 3: got with love and hate.

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Speaker 4: So this it's the second series of Mirror Miror. The

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Speaker 4: first one was on body image dissatisfaction. This one is

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Speaker 4: on the Internet and how it's fundamentally changing us and

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Speaker 4: how over time it's rewiring our brain and more often

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Speaker 4: than not in a negative way, so that it's filled

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Speaker 4: with tools and techniques and things we can do to

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Speaker 4: help us mitigate the damage that the internet's causing. But

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Speaker 4: there is no question, there is no debate that the

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Speaker 4: Internet is in the impact it's having on us is

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Speaker 4: arguably the biggest crisis that we face.

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Speaker 2: Does it say a lot about society though, because I

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Speaker 2: think that the word that I've heard, it's been labeled

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Speaker 2: shock porn, and a lot of people are the new

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Speaker 2: thing is that they get off on people saying shocking things.

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Speaker 1: And this is it's our industry as well.

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Speaker 2: The word shock jock, and you know, like you know,

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Speaker 2: guys like Steve Price, Alan Jones, they've been doing it

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Speaker 2: for years and I feel like that to become more relevant,

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Speaker 2: they have to be more controversial.

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Speaker 4: Yes, And so this is what the tech companies take

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Speaker 4: advantage of. They take advantage of our innate negativity bias.

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Speaker 4: We're drawn to the negative. And so the majority of

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Speaker 4: content online, like well over eighty percent of that content

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Speaker 4: has nothing to do with humans. It's all machine learning,

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Speaker 4: algorithmically driven. So all the recommendations you're getting from YouTube,

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Speaker 4: all the recommendations you get from Google, all of that

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Speaker 4: is without human contact. It's all done by algorithms, and

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Speaker 4: an algorithm learns you, It understands you. Everything you do

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Speaker 4: online is mapped, and so they get you and they

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Speaker 4: known from a negativity perspective. If they give you something

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Speaker 4: you're interested in, so something fits his football, okay, that's fine.

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Speaker 4: But if they make it a little more controversial, and

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Speaker 4: they go, Okay, all the bad things that happen in

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Speaker 4: football this week. Fight you'll watch more of it, and

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Speaker 4: then you make it a little more negative, and you'll

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Speaker 4: watch more of it. And the algorithm, which is independent,

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Speaker 4: is learning that and basically it ends up in a

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Speaker 4: situation where they're recommending conspiracy theories. Or Alex Jones in America,

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Speaker 4: who was in the press for all this hate speech,

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Speaker 4: he was recommended independently by YouTube fifteen billion times.

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Speaker 1: He was recommendative eighteen billion times.

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Speaker 3: That's where people took him so naturally out of interest.

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Speaker 1: Let's say you watch I don't know, maybe you might

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Speaker 1: watch a.

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Speaker 2: Hurricane Ian like video on YouTube just to see what

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Speaker 2: it's done over there. If you keep watching recommendations on

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Speaker 2: the side, you'll eventually get to someone like Alex Shanes.

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Speaker 4: You will, and it gets crazier with uh TikTok. So

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Speaker 4: TikTok is arguably the most successful algorithm that exists, and

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Speaker 4: it's that learns you so much that they claim in

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Speaker 4: America they're there scanning face scanning as well. So with TikTok,

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Speaker 4: if you go on TikTok and I've done this and

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Speaker 4: it's in the film. But if you go on TikTok

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Speaker 4: and you're feeling sad, you're a kid and you're feeling sad,

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Speaker 4: so you you look at you hover over a video.

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Speaker 4: But that's about loneliness. Yep, because got you. She's interested

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Speaker 4: in loneliness. Keep going, next video, more about darkness, more

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Speaker 4: about darkness, more about and eventually you are surrounded by

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Speaker 4: ativity negativity.

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Speaker 5: But do you look into at any point why we

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Speaker 5: are drawn to or do we understand why we're drawn

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Speaker 5: to negativity? Is there a reason for that?

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Speaker 1: Well, it isn't innate.

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Speaker 4: There's so what these tech companies have done really cleverly,

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Speaker 4: and the Stanford School of persuasion was where it all

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Speaker 4: really started in America. They're basically looking at us as

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Speaker 4: humans and going, Okay, what are the fundamental things we have?

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Speaker 4: We have a fundamental need to belong to connect with others,

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Speaker 4: so we tribe.

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Speaker 1: So what do they do?

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Speaker 4: They own the means in which we can act. Like

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Speaker 4: for me to say to my daughter's like a two

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Speaker 4: teenage daughters, for me to say it to my youngest

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Speaker 4: daughter and say you need to get off the phone,

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Speaker 4: that's like saying I'd like you to stop breathing. That

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Speaker 4: is how they understand the world. Yes, And so we

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Speaker 4: can't go back. There's no putting it back in the bottle.

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Speaker 4: We have to just get in it with them and

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Speaker 4: try and make it work within.

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Speaker 1: Toddy, you know what's interesting.

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Speaker 3: And it goes back to the point you're making fits

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Speaker 3: where it's sort of more shocking. You could you could

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Speaker 3: argue for language, it has developed that way, you know

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Speaker 3: over time. You know, if someone was to say shi

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Speaker 3: t on TV, it was like, oh my god, after

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Speaker 3: nine thirty plays. But now you've got language that's you know,

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Speaker 3: really confronting, that's becoming common. Then you go back to

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Speaker 3: the sixties and Elvis Presley on The Ed Sullivan Show

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Speaker 3: and it was banned for shaking his hips on TV.

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Speaker 3: Now nudity is becoming the normal on many platforms, and

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Speaker 3: the discussion about sex is very free and open, and

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Speaker 3: people are attracted to that in the same sense as

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Speaker 3: what you're talking about, because it's jarring and it's shock.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So the question is where does it stop.

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Speaker 4: Well, you're raising important point there around the binary argument.

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Speaker 4: So Mark Zuckerberg would like you to have a binary argument.

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Speaker 4: He would like you to be thinking it's either all

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Speaker 4: in and all the beautifulness of the internet, you know,

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Speaker 4: marginalized communities, connecting, finding love online, information, the way it's changed, education,

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Speaker 4: all that good stuff. His argument is this, you either

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Speaker 4: get all of that or you get none of it.

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Speaker 4: You get the negative, and that is not true. We

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Speaker 4: can regulate, which is what I think needs to happen.

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Speaker 4: We can regulate enough to keep the good, yes, all

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Speaker 4: the good and still marginalized, or minimize some of the

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Speaker 4: damages that it causes.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: The other thing too, And it's frustrating because they talk

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Speaker 3: about the art of conversation being dead and the art

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Speaker 3: of debate being dead where you're open to learning more

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Speaker 3: about something. And this comes back to the algorithms as well.

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Speaker 3: So if we took something as simple as climate change right,

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Speaker 3: and if FITZI was, if FITZI was to be anti

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Speaker 3: believer in climate change right, and he watched not which

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Speaker 3: he's not, and he watches one video longer than another,

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Speaker 3: then the next thing, you know, you're just going to

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Speaker 3: be served more information to support your argument. And let's

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Speaker 3: say I'm on the other side and I believe in

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Speaker 3: climate change, then I'm going to be served more information.

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Speaker 3: So when you and I hit the topic. We feel

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Speaker 3: like our army is loaded full of information to go

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Speaker 3: to war, so us learning from each other about what's

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Speaker 3: going on is dead.

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Speaker 4: Yes, And that's they referred to as echo chambers. And

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Speaker 4: for any belief you have, there are millions of people

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Speaker 4: that had that belief, and they'll feed back and amplify.

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Speaker 1: That belief even more.

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Speaker 4: And that's and that is how we communicate. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 4: I mean, or not communicate as it might be.

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Speaker 2: Can we go back to the kids, all right, because

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Speaker 2: you just said to us as me, you can't tell

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Speaker 2: a kid get off your phone altogether, or you're not

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Speaker 2: have TikTok on your phone.

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Speaker 1: You can't do that. We understand.

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Speaker 2: So how do we work with our children to make

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Speaker 2: sure that they're not going down the negative road? Well?

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Speaker 4: We first of all, they are in a negative road

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Speaker 4: if they're online exceptional amount of time, like most kids

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Speaker 4: are now spending six hours on our day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So even my daughter, my youngest daughter, I grabbed her

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Speaker 4: phone to check screen time, which I recommend parents do,

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Speaker 4: and one week she had spent forty two hours on TikTok.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 4: And she's like, Dad, I'm a low user and sort.

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Speaker 4: The thing I would say is, first of all, spending

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Speaker 4: that much screen time is not good because it's isolating

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Speaker 4: them from other people and socialization is declining. Kids are

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Speaker 4: making less and less eye contact today than ever before.

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Speaker 4: They rarely look at you because they spend most of

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Speaker 4: their time connecting online. So they used to believe that

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Speaker 4: all the problems of mental health were down to screen time.

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Speaker 4: So the numbers are if your kid spends more than

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Speaker 4: two hours a day on social media, they're at now

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Speaker 4: at risk of mental health issues.

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Speaker 1: In course, is that the current understanding.

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Speaker 4: No, it's changed. So they used to believe screen time

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Speaker 4: was the issue. Now the research is showing that the

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Speaker 4: real issue of increasing suicide, self harm, depression comes down

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Speaker 4: to the introduction of the like button in two thousand

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Speaker 4: and nine, right, because we are not used to that

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Speaker 4: much affirmation or that much feedback. We're not used to it, right,

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Speaker 4: And now we live in the world. Now you imagine

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Speaker 4: your kid who's spending fifty hours a week on their

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Speaker 4: phone trying to get likes. Yeah, and they're in their

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Speaker 4: development stage. Oh my god, their brain is not fully

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Speaker 4: developed until the mid twenties.

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Speaker 3: So you know, the funny thing is too I feel

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Speaker 3: the pressure is a parent, and I'm sure a lot

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Speaker 3: of parents do. At LEASA and I always talk about

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Speaker 3: why we love going on holidays, and that's the reason

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Speaker 3: is because we feel like kids grow on holidays. And

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Speaker 3: the reason kids grow is because they're out and about

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Speaker 3: and the holiday is active and we're doing things of

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Speaker 3: whatever's on offer in the town that we're engaged one

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Speaker 3: hundred percent, says So I feel the pressure as a

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Speaker 3: parent that when we're not on holiday during the week

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Speaker 3: or after school, I need to keep their engagement in

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Speaker 3: day to day with outside activities and things to do. Yes,

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Speaker 3: sure there's downtime and there's a bit of screen time,

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Speaker 3: but trying to get that balance and trying to find

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Speaker 3: the energy to go.

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Speaker 1: Hey hard for a working Yes it is.

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Speaker 5: It's three o'clock.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna go shoot some hoops.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna go ride out bike to the park.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's the pressure to keeping and that. So

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Speaker 4: that's the reason we can't point the fingers at parents solely.

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Speaker 4: So a lot of people make the argument, they go, well,

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Speaker 4: it's bad parenting that you let your kid on the

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Speaker 4: phone for forty hours a week. The majority of people

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Speaker 4: who say and will say this film is alarmist. Are

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Speaker 4: not parents, because if you're a parent, you know what's

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Speaker 4: going on. You get it because you cannot stop these kids.

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Speaker 4: There's a couple of things that are simple to do.

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Speaker 4: The first one is, we know the kids are most

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Speaker 4: vulnerable at night because prior to age twenty five, they're

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Speaker 4: functioning from the amigdala, the emergency response emotional unit.

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Speaker 1: Of the brain.

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Speaker 4: At night, they're most vulnerable. And in fact, a lot

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Speaker 4: of the bullying, a lot of that stuff happens at night.

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Speaker 4: So good little, simple thing is to say to your kids, Okay,

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Speaker 4: whatever their age is, you know, no phone's in your

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Speaker 4: bedroom alone after eight o'clock, so charge your phone.

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Speaker 1: In the living room.

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Speaker 4: The other one that's really good for kids. I took Jet,

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Speaker 4: my youngest daughter's phone. We were walking the dog. I

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Speaker 4: shoved your phone in my back pocket. It felt like

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Speaker 4: a machine gun and we're shooting me in the notifications.

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Speaker 1: It was like, and I said, what is that Jet?

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Speaker 1: And she said that it's notification. It's no big deal.

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Speaker 4: So I try to highly recommend to everyone young and

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Speaker 4: old turn off all notifications, everything, even phone ying. And

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Speaker 4: you'll find it amazing when you realize you now have

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Speaker 4: control of your attention, not your phone. And then the

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Speaker 4: other really really simple one to do, and particularly for

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Speaker 4: people that are in the media, is and I did

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Speaker 4: this and.

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Speaker 1: It was wow.

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Speaker 4: It's just so helpful. Get rid of or take off

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Speaker 4: all social media on your mobile device. So keep it

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Speaker 4: on your computer if you need to use it, if

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Speaker 4: you guys need to use it for work or check,

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Speaker 4: but don't have it on your mobile device, and you'll

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Speaker 4: find yourself unable to resist. You'll be picking your phone

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Speaker 4: as soon as you're bored and going okay, no, I

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Speaker 4: don't shivers.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if I could handle it. Try it,

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Speaker 3: and I'm embarrassed to say that, try it.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 5: Matt On newsreader gave up Instagram about a couple of

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Speaker 5: months ago, and he said, yeah, it was the first week,

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Speaker 5: it was more. And then now he said, I'm so free.

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Speaker 5: I'm not engaged with any of the crap that's going on.

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Speaker 5: I don't reach for my phone every two minutes. I

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Speaker 5: find other things to do.

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Speaker 3: God, I'd have to give up Raya so.

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Speaker 5: You can do it.

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Speaker 1: I'm so fascinated by Mattie.

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Speaker 3: I love this.

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Speaker 2: You are like there's some of the stuff in here.

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Speaker 2: I mean you don't hold back, Toddy. I mean with

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Speaker 2: this this show Monday night or tonight. Sorry at seven thirty,

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Speaker 2: I mean, what do you kick off with? Is this

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Speaker 2: pretty controversial?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? So the opening is.

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Speaker 4: Borderline able to go on television. Wow, it's definitely borderline

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Speaker 4: for seven thirty. But you know, Channel ten thought it

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Speaker 4: was important that we show it, and so did we.

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Speaker 1: That's why we made it like that.

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Speaker 4: It opens with an experiment that we did with on

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Speaker 4: a site, a video chat site called a megel. Now

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Speaker 4: a lot of parents will go never heard of it,

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Speaker 4: and nearly every child.

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Speaker 3: Will go, yes, I have a magel.

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Speaker 4: Yep, it's a video chat site. It's unregulated, no Adria carment.

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Speaker 4: You basically just go on and bam. The tagline has

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Speaker 4: talked to strangers, so two people just connect. And I

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Speaker 4: was doing an experiment where I had an actress she

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Speaker 4: was nineteen, she was playing fourteen, and I had a

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Speaker 4: former police officer in wa Australian of the Year WA

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Speaker 4: Australian of the Year May's dedicated his life to cybersecurity.

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Speaker 4: Now ten minutes on, she can't see what I can see. Yes,

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Speaker 4: I'm controlling the conversation with a chat ten minutes I

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Speaker 4: would say less than probably five minutes in and someone

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Speaker 4: comes on and she's sitting there innocently and he's like

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Speaker 4: boobs and she's like, and I'm typing. I'm like, uh,

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Speaker 4: you know, I'm too shy. He's like, listen, take it top.

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Speaker 1: Off, oh my gosh, and up.

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Speaker 4: And I'm like oh, and I'm like, my mom is

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Speaker 4: coming up. And he's like, I don't care.

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Speaker 1: You do what I say.

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Speaker 4: And then and then then then way, so then it

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Speaker 4: gets worse. So then she doesn't do anything. She just

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Speaker 4: sort of freezes. Next thing, he's masturbating to her.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 4: So then I kind of lose my mind for a

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Speaker 4: second there, and I go around to the screen where

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Speaker 4: she's sitting where he can see, and I go down

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Speaker 4: the lens and I say, you should be in prison.

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Speaker 4: He goes black for a minute. The screen goes black.

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Speaker 4: I then go back around and she's now back on screen.

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Speaker 4: He's back to And that's five minutes in, and we're

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Speaker 4: only showing the sanitized version because we couldn't show it

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Speaker 4: all on television. And then the most heartbreaking thing was

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Speaker 4: then while we're chatting, we bump into three girls, nine

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Speaker 4: year olds under the covers doing it, and I say,

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Speaker 4: and I'm you know, I'm chatting through the my actress

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Speaker 4: and what are you doing here? And they're like, oh,

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Speaker 4: we're just having some fun. We're just to see some

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Speaker 4: scary penises.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, no, no exactly, this is Oh my.

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Speaker 1: God, you need to be watching this.

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Speaker 3: Say it again, sorry, fits, say it again. What's the

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Speaker 3: name of that site? A magel?

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Speaker 4: I feel bad saying it out loud.

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Speaker 1: No, it needs to be it needs.

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Speaker 4: To be shut down, is what it needs to be.

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Speaker 2: Well at seven point thirty tonight on Channel ten Mirror, Mirror,

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Speaker 2: Love and Hate, Love you, Toddy, Thank you very much

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Speaker 2: for coming in, buddy, thanks for having me. Thanks by

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Speaker 2: you're listening to the Fitzi and Whipper podcast