Speaker 1: God, are you bloody champions? It's me.
Speaker 2: It's Craig Anthony Harper from the You Project. It's Friday.
Speaker 2: We're sliding towards home plates. The weekend is coming up.
Speaker 2: I'm sure you're all excited or you're probably listening to
Speaker 2: this next week. You're probably not listening to it right now.
Speaker 2: Good thinking, Harps. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing in
Speaker 2: Australia outside of Australia, we hope you're well today. I'm
Speaker 2: excited because I'm talking a brand NEWI a brand newie,
Speaker 2: somebody that I met recently. We kind of intersected with
Speaker 2: work and a few other people. She's a straight up
Speaker 2: smarty pants, but she'll feel more anxious now that I've
Speaker 2: said she's a smarty pants, but I'm not going to
Speaker 2: recant it. That's just how I roll. Her name is
Speaker 2: doctor Anastasia Sutan. Did I get the surname right?
Speaker 1: Anna? You did? Ah?
Speaker 2: Go me? And we've been kind of chatting a bit
Speaker 2: and doing a few things, and I really enjoy talking
Speaker 2: to people who have which is nearly everyone knowledge that
Speaker 2: I don't have, understanding that I don't have, and anything.
Speaker 1: As you'll know, I'm a little bit.
Speaker 2: Obsessed with the mind and human performance and behavior and
Speaker 2: self management and self regulation and self awareness, all the
Speaker 2: self stuff. How do I optimize me in the middle
Speaker 2: of a suboptimal environment or situation? How do I navigate
Speaker 2: and negotiate and optimize all the stuff that I have
Speaker 2: to deal with, you know, strengths, weaknesses, limitations, And so
Speaker 2: that's what we're going to do. So after that very
Speaker 2: long winded oh you know what I'm going to do.
Speaker 2: Before I stop the long windedness, I'm going to read
Speaker 2: this a little bit.
Speaker 1: Doctor.
Speaker 2: Let's just go with We're going with Doctor Anna today
Speaker 2: is a clinical psychologist with more than fifty I don't
Speaker 2: know how old this bio is, so you can.
Speaker 1: Correct me in a minute. And she's thinking, oh God,
Speaker 1: where did you get that? From?
Speaker 2: More than fifteen years experience working with kids, adolescents and
Speaker 2: adults across clinical, educational and private practice setting. She holds
Speaker 2: Masters and a PhD. Like I said, Smarty Panting clinical
Speaker 2: Psychology and Adolescent Specialization from the UNI of Melbourne is
Speaker 2: a registered and endorsed clinical psychologist with Psychology Board of
Speaker 2: Australia and a whole bunch of other stuff, like a
Speaker 2: whole bunch of other stuff, so I won't keep you
Speaker 2: waiting any longer.
Speaker 1: Hi Anna, how are you?
Speaker 3: Hello? Craig? Hello everyone, lovely to be here. I'm really
Speaker 3: excited to be here.
Speaker 2: In fact, so this is your podcast debut, right mm absolutely?
Speaker 1: Now let me I need you to be honest.
Speaker 2: Is the psychologist who helps people stay calm?
Speaker 1: Is she calm for me?
Speaker 3: I was using all the tools eightish my clients, the breathing,
Speaker 3: their mindfulness. But yes, I'm still feeling a bit nervous,
Speaker 3: to be honest.
Speaker 1: Well, you know they do work. That's okay. That doesn't
Speaker 1: mean you a week or broken. That means you normal?
Speaker 1: How far? I don't know, do you.
Speaker 2: I have this experience often where like I know, I
Speaker 2: know I'm not a fraud, but I feel like a fraud.
Speaker 2: Or I know that I'm good enough just intellectually because
Speaker 2: I have experience and evidence and data that says, Craig,
Speaker 2: You're not a complete idiot, But nonetheless I have that
Speaker 2: feeling of inadequacy or not good enough itis, and that
Speaker 2: can overwhelm like that feeling can overwhelm all the stuff
Speaker 2: you actually know.
Speaker 3: Right, Yes, almost the imposed to syndrome in a way
Speaker 3: which I still sometimes get even that I've been practicing
Speaker 3: for yes, over fifteen years during this kind of work.
Speaker 3: But yes, I guess that kind of performance anxiety be
Speaker 3: a bit of a perfection of myself. That's something that
Speaker 3: I can certainly feel.
Speaker 1: This might sound sexist.
Speaker 2: I don't mean it to be, but my observation anyway
Speaker 2: is that more women seem to be perfectionists rather than
Speaker 2: I'm not saying I think it's obviously both genders, but
Speaker 2: I don't know. Maybe I've just noticed that it seems
Speaker 2: like I know more ladies that are perfectionists than men.
Speaker 2: Men are a little bit like, ah, it'll be right,
Speaker 2: is that true?
Speaker 3: Look, when it comes to perfectionism in general, I'd say
Speaker 3: probably both men and women have that equally. But when
Speaker 3: it comes to the social perfectionism, I'd agree with you.
Speaker 3: I think that women can be more socially perfectionistic.
Speaker 1: And what is that? How does that express?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: What does that mean? Socially perfect perfection? Is that the
Speaker 2: way I want to really control how I think people
Speaker 2: see me, or my behavior or the way I dress
Speaker 2: or present to the world.
Speaker 1: Is it that stuff for work?
Speaker 3: Stuff for yeah, very much, all of those. So it's
Speaker 3: like setting really high standards for yourself and then internalizing
Speaker 3: that fear, having that anxiety and stress about well, how
Speaker 3: are you going to perform? How are people going to
Speaker 3: perceive you? And that's kind of grows very much along
Speaker 3: with what you've been working on with your thesis, isn't
Speaker 3: it that needs a perception?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm I mean, I've been fascinated with and
Speaker 2: I ain't about me, so we'll get back to you.
Speaker 2: But I've always just been fascinated even when I was
Speaker 2: a kid. I have this vivid recollection of going to
Speaker 2: my mum's uncle, right, So that's how young I was.
Speaker 2: It was my mum's uncle's fiftieth so my mum was
Speaker 2: like thirty and he was fifty and I was six
Speaker 2: because mum had me when she was twenty four. So
Speaker 2: I'm six years old and I'm at this event with
Speaker 2: all these old people, like thirty year old like dinosaur
Speaker 2: human beings, right, And I was the only child at
Speaker 2: this party of about sixty or seventy people, And I
Speaker 2: remember being I was a bit of a weird kid, right,
Speaker 2: because I was an only kid. I was an only child,
Speaker 2: so I spent a disproportionate amount of time around grown
Speaker 2: ups and listening to, for better or worse, adult conversations,
Speaker 2: and I think I was like, if I don't think
Speaker 2: I'm particularly gifted, but if I do have any natural
Speaker 2: ability or gift, it might be with communication, right and
Speaker 2: understanding how people think ergo my research. But I remember
Speaker 2: listening to old people in inverted Comma's talk and thinking
Speaker 2: how boring they were and how much they could just
Speaker 2: talk about nothing in particular. And I became I didn't
Speaker 2: know what it was, but almost like this social dance
Speaker 2: of how are you good in you?
Speaker 1: And how did this and how did that?
Speaker 2: Oh great, and just all this bullshit like super visual,
Speaker 2: like nobody was actually talking about much that interested me anyway.
Speaker 2: So I think that you know, that's long standing for
Speaker 2: me is being fascinated with other people's experience of life.
Speaker 2: You know that whole thing you and I are in
Speaker 2: the same conversation. Now we're not in the same experience,
Speaker 2: you know, same day, same podcast, same time, same you
Speaker 2: know what looks from the outside the same experience, but
Speaker 2: is totally not. And then becoming aware that, oh, like
Speaker 2: with you, like what's making me nervous or anxious or
Speaker 2: this or that is not the event or the situation
Speaker 2: or Craig, but rather how I process it all, like
Speaker 2: just that recognition of ah, when you think, oh that
Speaker 2: that makes me anxious. Oh no, no, no, you're thinking
Speaker 2: about that makes you anxious? Anxious or this is a
Speaker 2: stressful environment. And then you go, well, how come that
Speaker 2: lady over there is not stressed or that guy is
Speaker 2: not stressed. Then you start to understand the way that
Speaker 2: we self create knowingly or not every day.
Speaker 3: Exactly, and that's where the whole notion of that met
Speaker 3: recognition comes into play. Have you seen that interview with
Speaker 3: Alien Goo feel skier sorry freestyle skier who won the
Speaker 3: gold medal for I think for China, the American Chinese. Yeah, well,
Speaker 3: and she was giving that interviews talking about how metacognition
Speaker 3: helps her in working with her mind and improving her
Speaker 3: performance and making helping her grow not just as a
Speaker 3: skier but as a human being, being like the best
Speaker 3: version of herself. Is really fascinating to hear her speak
Speaker 3: about that and like being like a scientist exploring her brain,
Speaker 3: exploring how it reacts to different things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like trying to understand yourself, which is literally why
Speaker 2: this show is called The Youth project, because I think
Speaker 2: the biggest project I have in my life and will
Speaker 2: ever have as me, and not from a selfish point
Speaker 2: of view, but trying to understand me, trying to understand
Speaker 2: me for others, trying to understand why do I react
Speaker 2: that way, why do I operate an ego? Why am
Speaker 2: I insecure when I've done this thirty times? Or why
Speaker 2: do I talk this way or that way? Why are
Speaker 2: my behaviors the way they are? And and you know,
Speaker 2: without doing without being too self indulgent or going down
Speaker 2: the Craig rabbit hole too much, and then you just
Speaker 2: become a weirdo, but just understanding how I operate in
Speaker 2: the world me and then how I operate.
Speaker 1: For others, like what is my Like what's the Craig impact?
Speaker 2: And that's not an egotistical question, that's a curious one,
Speaker 2: because you know, sometimes I can talk to twenty people
Speaker 2: and I have a negative impact on one and a
Speaker 2: positive impact on another, and You're like, all the outcome
Speaker 2: is negative or positive, and you go, this is so
Speaker 2: crazy because even then it's not as much about what
Speaker 2: I'm saying. Although I'm a stimulus, but I am not
Speaker 2: the determinant of their experience.
Speaker 1: Does that make sense?
Speaker 3: Absolutely? It's interesting. In my practice, I'm seeing a lot
Speaker 3: of people who actually, well, I actually my area of
Speaker 3: passion is you're a divergence, and I'm seeing lots of
Speaker 3: people who are You're a divergent. And what I find,
Speaker 3: especially with females, is that they do a lot of
Speaker 3: almost over analyzing. They are over focused on how others
Speaker 3: perceive them, and they constantly scan the environment, They constantly
Speaker 3: scan the other person there with or other people there with,
Speaker 3: and that's where the whole masking comes in. So it's
Speaker 3: not just trying to understand how they're perceived by others,
Speaker 3: but also trying to adjus to make sure that they're
Speaker 3: liked by that person. And that's where the whole kind
Speaker 3: of question is, well, is it always a good thing
Speaker 3: to be very good at that meta perception?
Speaker 1: That is a great question. So here's my answer.
Speaker 2: I think what you were talking about there is largely
Speaker 2: driven by fear. Please like me, please accept me, Please
Speaker 2: think I'm good enough.
Speaker 1: Pretty enough, smart enough, like.
Speaker 2: It's a fear based driver, whereas what I want to
Speaker 2: encourage is a curiosity based driver.
Speaker 1: So that like, for example, if.
Speaker 2: People think I'm handsome, or ugly smart or dumb whatever,
Speaker 2: I honestly don't care.
Speaker 1: It's like, well, that is what it is. Do I
Speaker 1: want people to like me? Yes? I do?
Speaker 2: Why because I'm human and I'm still a bit insecure.
Speaker 2: But if they don't like me, also, that's okay.
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. If you understand.
Speaker 2: More accurately or with greater insight, you understand the Anna
Speaker 2: experience for Craig, you know what it's. You've got an
Speaker 2: insight into how I experience you. Then now you have
Speaker 2: a conversational and sociological advance because you know something that
Speaker 2: the average person doesn't know. So too, Like you know,
Speaker 2: if you're working with somebody right now who's say, you know,
Speaker 2: on the spectrum in some way versus somebody who isn't,
Speaker 2: you will automatically adjust your conversational style perhaps and the content.
Speaker 1: Of your words.
Speaker 2: And you know, but you do that automatically because you
Speaker 2: know this will be more appropriate with this person and
Speaker 2: this will be more But that's something that we do
Speaker 2: on autopilot. But then when you kind of fine tune
Speaker 2: that into you know, like you think about when you'll
Speaker 2: say talk.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you ever do. I'm sure you do.
Speaker 1: But when you talk to a group of twenty thirty,
Speaker 1: forty fifty, now you've got now you've got fifty people
Speaker 1: in the room processing you and experiencing you.
Speaker 2: In their own unique way. And that because the only
Speaker 2: person who thinks like you in the room as you, yep,
Speaker 2: and so to be able.
Speaker 4: To factor that in real time, you know, that's that's
Speaker 4: one of the does does that come into play when
Speaker 4: you're working with people who are neuro divergent trying to
Speaker 4: understand there they're in the moment reality?
Speaker 3: I would say so yes, And look, something I wanted
Speaker 3: to say is, well, we've had we've known each other
Speaker 3: for a pretty short period of time, but there was
Speaker 3: something I actually wanted to share with you, and in fact,
Speaker 3: something I wanted to share publicly for the first time
Speaker 3: since we're speaking about neuridivergence. Is that actually I've recently
Speaker 3: learned about being uridivergent myself. So that's something.
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm quite thank you, thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Like we had a quick chat before this and and
Speaker 2: I told me that, and I went, like, we've met
Speaker 2: a few times, not a lot, but yeah, I went, yeah,
Speaker 2: well I'm not and not in a good or bad way,
Speaker 2: just as in a well yeah, it's kind of like
Speaker 2: me going, I don't have heaps of hair on my head.
Speaker 2: You go, well, of course you don't. I can see it.
Speaker 2: For me, it was a little bit like that. But
Speaker 2: how is that for you now? So you've got this
Speaker 2: new knowledge or awareness, how is that for you?
Speaker 3: Yes, look, it's empowering, I'd say, it's also almost liberating.
Speaker 3: So I've I've been recently diagnosed with AUDHD, so that's
Speaker 3: both autism and ADHD. I felt pretty much the same
Speaker 3: way as you did when I share the news with you,
Speaker 3: in the fact that that's a surprising. In fact, when
Speaker 3: I went for the assessment, I knew exactly that this
Speaker 3: is what I am. For a long time I have
Speaker 3: been contemplating with I am your divergent, but somehow I
Speaker 3: didn't feel like I could fit into one of those
Speaker 3: boxes of being an ADHDR or being autistic in that
Speaker 3: kind of perfect way. But then when I started thinking
Speaker 3: about the actual AUDIHD profile, I thought, well, that's me,
Speaker 3: that's exactly me. And interestingly, up until twenty and thirteen,
Speaker 3: so based on the previous DSM, the M four, we
Speaker 3: couldn't actually diagnose someone with both of those conditions and
Speaker 3: that's fascinating. So just thinking about it, how our understanding
Speaker 3: of our awareness of neurodivergence has been evolving really quickly
Speaker 3: and really shifting the way we think about neurodivergence. So
Speaker 3: a lot of people, I would imagine I'm the same
Speaker 3: kind of prior as me, feeling that they don't quite
Speaker 3: fit into either of those. But the AUDIOHD profile really
Speaker 3: kind of resonated with me. I could really feel that
Speaker 3: this explains so much about me and gives me so
Speaker 3: much insight into why I do certain things the way
Speaker 3: I do, why certain things are easier, why certain things
Speaker 3: are harder. So I feel like it's been a really
Speaker 3: kind of helpful experience for me to gain that self awareness,
Speaker 3: gain that level.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for sharing. That is a gift and
Speaker 2: well done you. Now is the term that you're using,
Speaker 2: or DHD, so it's an amalgamation of autism and ADHD
Speaker 2: so or DHD yeh DHD.
Speaker 1: So what are the things that for you.
Speaker 2: Are easier and harder because of that or in relation
Speaker 2: to that, I'll.
Speaker 3: Start with the easier ones. In fact, there are lots
Speaker 3: of things I love about the way my brain works.
Speaker 3: I am a very curious person. I get really super
Speaker 3: passionate about things. I mean to really excited. I have
Speaker 3: lots of things I love doing, and I when I'm
Speaker 3: feeling good, I feel like I have end loose energy
Speaker 3: to do things. So you probably know that I have
Speaker 3: five kids and I love that kind of busy, full on,
Speaker 3: exciting lifestyle.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But can I ask you another weird question?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: Go ahead, because I'm just I'm curious.
Speaker 2: So you and I met at a meeting, at a
Speaker 2: business meeting.
Speaker 1: We'll just leave it at that, right, And how do
Speaker 1: I say this?
Speaker 2: It's like I feel like I think you and I
Speaker 2: get on well, right, Like I said, we've spoken four
Speaker 2: or five times, but I felt like you and I
Speaker 2: couldn't be more different, Like there are things that we
Speaker 2: have in kind, but at one end of the scale,
Speaker 2: whatever scale we're talking about, is jumbo fatty Harps Craig Harper.
Speaker 2: And at the other end of the scale, as you
Speaker 2: not a good or a bad end? Just did you
Speaker 2: like you must have had that awareness when you met me,
Speaker 2: because I had that awareness, not in a like this
Speaker 2: isn't a problem, this is I'm glad you're not like me.
Speaker 1: You're glad. You're glad, I'm not. You know, you're not
Speaker 1: like me, or vice versa. Right, what was that like?
Speaker 3: I'm used to sharing space with people who are very,
Speaker 3: very different, and I love that. I love being around
Speaker 3: people who are who see things differently to me, who
Speaker 3: perceive things differently to me. I find that very fascinating.
Speaker 3: So my kind of curious part of the brain is
Speaker 3: really excited about being able to interact with people who
Speaker 3: are different, and I think that as a psychologist, I'm
Speaker 3: also doing that quite a bit, kind of constantly stepping
Speaker 3: into other people's shoes some as you previously said, trying
Speaker 3: to figure out how they perceive me, trying to figure
Speaker 3: out what this experience is like for them. I love that.
Speaker 1: How do we here's a tricky a question. Okay, so
Speaker 1: how do we?
Speaker 2: You know, I've got biases, I've got certain things that
Speaker 2: I think and believe and hold to be true. I'm
Speaker 2: also very aware that I've been wrong a lot, so
Speaker 2: I don't hold these ideas too tightly. But you know,
Speaker 2: when you go and work with someone or I don't know,
Speaker 2: there are specific tools that you use, but just in general,
Speaker 2: you're always looking through the anna window. I'm always looking
Speaker 2: through the Craig window, and sometimes that helps and sometimes
Speaker 2: it doesn't help.
Speaker 1: Ye, are you ever awareness? Are you ever aware?
Speaker 2: Or I don't know, do you ever think about is
Speaker 2: there in this moment in this like even with a podcast,
Speaker 2: this is your first time, this is my millionth time,
Speaker 2: and so by the way, you're doing great, But you know,
Speaker 2: like coming into it, it's like, well, this is.
Speaker 1: New, this is unknown, this is what is he going
Speaker 1: to ask me?
Speaker 2: Because there's no brief, there's no preparation, there's no rehearsal.
Speaker 2: Do you ever think about how else can I think
Speaker 2: about this other than that any way which might be
Speaker 2: a better way?
Speaker 3: Well, I guess it's all about kind of zooming out
Speaker 3: a bit and trying to, yeah, trying to think about
Speaker 3: the situations that kind of external perspective a bit. But
Speaker 3: I still have my own lens that I'm looking through,
Speaker 3: and I guess that this is why I try to
Speaker 3: make sure that my lens is as I can't say,
Speaker 3: I can't say objective, but us I don't know what's
Speaker 3: the best word to use.
Speaker 2: Kind of I think I think objective as you can
Speaker 2: as you can be right, and that's possible.
Speaker 3: Probably that's the word right right thinking about.
Speaker 2: I feel like part of self awareness and self understanding
Speaker 2: is realizing how much self awareness you don't have.
Speaker 3: My view is always going to be subjective, but I'm
Speaker 3: being curious. I'm really trying to allow the person to
Speaker 3: share their experience with me, and I'm just the person
Speaker 3: who kind of listens and processes this, and yes and
Speaker 3: for kind of facilitates this process.
Speaker 2: When you we're going to jump into your work a
Speaker 2: little bit in a moment, but just staying in the
Speaker 2: personal space with you. So when you found this out, well,
Speaker 2: I guess the first people you told about your AUDIHD
Speaker 2: was your family?
Speaker 1: Am I correct?
Speaker 3: My husband?
Speaker 1: Yes? Did he go and or did he go oh
Speaker 1: my god?
Speaker 3: No? He was just so neutral about it. I was
Speaker 3: actually a bit shocked. He was like, we were cooking
Speaker 3: dinners together. Then I went, you know what, I'm pretty
Speaker 3: sure I have AUDIOHD and he goes to, whatever, if
Speaker 3: you told me you're an alien, I don't really care.
Speaker 1: What a good dude.
Speaker 2: And did you feel apprehensive about telling people or did
Speaker 2: you kind of feel a little bit relieved of Well,
Speaker 2: this all makes sense. This kind of is more understandable.
Speaker 3: It's sound a bit awkward, but at the end I
Speaker 3: did feel relieved. I feel like it's still a bit
Speaker 3: of a process where people will continue kind of like
Speaker 3: people around me will continue questioning about this and what
Speaker 3: it is like, possibly reflecting what this means for them personally.
Speaker 3: So it's only kind of the beginning of that journey
Speaker 3: because it's all very new. But ultimately I think it's
Speaker 3: been a really positive experience.
Speaker 2: I feel like it's going to give you a level
Speaker 2: of understanding and empathy and awareness that other clinicians might
Speaker 2: not have. I'm not saying won't, but because obviously you've
Speaker 2: you know, you're a clinical psychologist, you've got a PhD
Speaker 2: in that, you know, you've got a master's degree, and
Speaker 2: you've done a huge amount of work in their space.
Speaker 2: But also you just you know, you're living kind of
Speaker 2: a version of what other people are living. I know
Speaker 2: there's lots of variation, but that I kind of think
Speaker 2: it makes a little bit of a superpower almost.
Speaker 3: I agree with you, And that's the thing I've been
Speaker 3: kind of experiencing for a long time. When working with
Speaker 3: your divergent people, I will almost assume things they're experiencing
Speaker 3: and share my assumptions with them and they go, yes, exactly,
Speaker 3: that's it, and he's surprised, like, how do I know
Speaker 3: all those things? And initially I just thought, well, I
Speaker 3: just kind of have that intuitive feeling or maybe that
Speaker 3: knowledge that I've gained. But now I realize it's more
Speaker 3: than that. It's my personal experience that helps me build
Speaker 3: that level of understanding and empathy, and that's really helpful
Speaker 3: as a clinician. I think that's so it is a superpower.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that intersection of you know, education and training,
Speaker 2: but you know, in the moment kind of learning on
Speaker 2: the job, learning experience, empathy, aware insight, all of the
Speaker 2: stuff you can't really teach at a university.
Speaker 1: So we need the training, we need to understand the
Speaker 1: brain and the mind, and we need to understand human behavior.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, you know, all that additional
Speaker 2: stuff I think is going to make not your job easier,
Speaker 2: but I think it's going to make you more effective
Speaker 2: as a practitioner, or it might already be doing that,
Speaker 2: of course, you know.
Speaker 1: And I think the other thing too, is.
Speaker 2: Like, this is going to sound contrary and contradictory, and well,
Speaker 2: I think it's great to be academically qualified because we
Speaker 2: do lots of good learning, and we start to understand
Speaker 2: the science behind whatever the treatment or the diagnoses or
Speaker 2: the whatever. You know, we understand the research, and but
Speaker 2: there's stuff that you know, Like I know, I was
Speaker 2: basically an inverted commas using psychology and my understanding of
Speaker 2: my natural and experience and on the job learning with
Speaker 2: psychology and human behavior, and like when I was in
Speaker 2: my twenties, even though I wasn't a psychologist, and even
Speaker 2: you know, I'm just finishing my PhD in psychology, I
Speaker 2: don't actually think drastically different because I came from being
Speaker 2: small best kid to being a kind of quite fit
Speaker 2: athletic kid to working with people in the gym. And
Speaker 2: one thing that everyone has in common when they come
Speaker 2: to a gym is that they want to change. Well,
Speaker 2: change is a multi dimensional process. It's not about your
Speaker 2: body fat percentage or your lower back or your blood pressure.
Speaker 2: It's about one hundred things. So even though I knew
Speaker 2: how to prescribe exercise, and I understood pretty well anatomy
Speaker 2: and physiology and biomechanics and nutrition and energy systems and
Speaker 2: all of those things which you kind of need to know,
Speaker 2: but if you don't understand the human who lives in
Speaker 2: the body, you can't do a great job. So I
Speaker 2: was all more fascinated with why they think the way
Speaker 2: they do, and why they choose the way they do,
Speaker 2: and why they behave the way they do. Then I
Speaker 2: was in their body composition, and that kind of helped
Speaker 2: me become quite good at my job.
Speaker 1: But that was before I sat in one lecture of anything, you.
Speaker 3: Know, thinking about change. I mean, yes, exactly. You can't
Speaker 3: just focus on one thing without actually focusing all the
Speaker 3: other areas which are implicating that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like we were chatting the other day about the
Speaker 2: importance of even for people who do get diagnosed, you know,
Speaker 2: somewhere in the neurodivergent space. And then you go, So
Speaker 2: there's that, there's understanding that and what's going on there.
Speaker 2: But then there's also I hope they get some good sleep. Also,
Speaker 2: I hope they don't drink too much booze. Also, I
Speaker 2: hope they do I hope they have a kind of
Speaker 2: active lifestyle. Also, you know, I hope they do meaningful
Speaker 2: work that stimulates them and makes them feel like they
Speaker 2: have a purpose.
Speaker 1: Like there's all of these other things that.
Speaker 2: You won't find in the DSM five or any well
Speaker 2: whatever you know, where you're talking about, how do I
Speaker 2: help this person manage their.
Speaker 1: Mind or their brain and what are all the things
Speaker 1: that we don't really talk about much that affect that
Speaker 1: because it's that other stuff as well, that broader understanding
Speaker 1: of the totality of the challenge.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and the more we learn about how people here
Speaker 3: on your a divergent function, the more we understand the
Speaker 3: importance of this holistic approach, the kind of really thinking
Speaker 3: about making some meaningful changes in terms of the person's
Speaker 3: everyday lifestyle and functioning. So just the other day I
Speaker 3: saw the article which said that people say who have
Speaker 3: ADHD have a much lower life expectancy, like on average, yeah.
Speaker 1: Or something.
Speaker 3: Oh, look for males, it's about seven years less. For females,
Speaker 3: which I was really surprised to hear, it's about nine
Speaker 3: years less.
Speaker 1: Wow, And why is that shock?
Speaker 3: Why is that?
Speaker 1: Doctor? And why is that?
Speaker 3: I think there are lots of ways to explain this.
Speaker 3: One is that people with ADHD tend to have high
Speaker 3: levels of impulsivity. In general, they are more prone to
Speaker 3: different types of addictions, so that can have a big
Speaker 3: impact on their lifestyle. But also we know that our
Speaker 3: DHD goes a lot goes hand in hand with different
Speaker 3: physical health conditions like heart conditions, obesity, stress, anxiety. All
Speaker 3: of those things contribute to the person's health and legality.
Speaker 3: Suicide is another thing. So people with who are your
Speaker 3: idivision have high risks of suicide. So there are lots
Speaker 3: and lots of factors to consider, but I think it's
Speaker 3: just something that really stresses they need for that more
Speaker 3: holistic approach.
Speaker 2: What is okay, So let's let's pair it right back.
Speaker 2: So somebody's listening to this and they kind of know
Speaker 2: what neurodivergence is, but can you give us firstly, so
Speaker 2: two part question stand by. Part one of the questions
Speaker 2: is can you give us a kind of a lay
Speaker 2: person's kind of easy peasy to understand definition of neurodivergence.
Speaker 1: In your language.
Speaker 2: And then the second thing is, well, let's start there
Speaker 2: before I give you, like, just help us just understand,
Speaker 2: because I think we all guess it's like, oh you're different, cool,
Speaker 2: how what what kind of is it?
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, without going too much into the kind of
Speaker 3: the technical nuances, it's really having your brain. That's why,
Speaker 3: in a different way to what the kind of the
Speaker 3: society deems as the stand up setting. So it's like
Speaker 3: having a different operating system and a way so this
Speaker 3: like we can imagine this the Mac system and the
Speaker 3: Microsoft system, and there are different systems. One's better for something,
Speaker 3: the other is better for something else. But if we
Speaker 3: try to run the say the MAC program on a
Speaker 3: Microsoft system, it's going to be it's not going to
Speaker 3: be it's not going to be optimal in the way
Speaker 3: it operates. And same with someone who's near a diversion.
Speaker 3: So we kind of the society expects them to function
Speaker 3: in a social setting, which is which often doesn't match
Speaker 3: the needs of someone who's neurodivision because the way they
Speaker 3: see things, the way they feel things, the way they
Speaker 3: perceive and sense the world is different to the neurotypicals,
Speaker 3: and that can be quite disabling in.
Speaker 2: A way, I feel like sometimes, So we have a
Speaker 2: guy who comes on here a lot. His name's are
Speaker 2: Bobby Capuccio, and he had a brain injury when he
Speaker 2: was a kid. By the way, he's super smart. He's
Speaker 2: got this like idetic memory. He's a great communicator. He's
Speaker 2: actually a coach and brilliant, right, but he's got Tourette's
Speaker 2: so he's got all these ticks and he's one of
Speaker 2: my he's one of my best friends, right, But he's
Speaker 2: got all these ticks, and he's you know, he's quirky
Speaker 2: and he's and I think when people sometimes meet him,
Speaker 2: they don't know who exactly how to talk to him,
Speaker 2: although he is actually a brilliant communicator and all that.
Speaker 2: And you know, because I've known him a long time
Speaker 2: and it's you know, I'm not even aware of it
Speaker 2: anymore because he's a friend. Then I see some people
Speaker 2: respond around him, and sometimes he says things that are
Speaker 2: funny to him but not funny to anyone else.
Speaker 1: Like sometimes you know that, and you're like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: is it I mean, it's nobody's job. But when it.
Speaker 2: Comes to people that are really different from us, whatever
Speaker 2: that means, whether or not we're on the spectrum or
Speaker 2: they're not, or when you're a divergent, is it our
Speaker 2: job to try to Like, you know, if you just
Speaker 2: be yourself, you might be offensive to them, or you
Speaker 2: might be intimidating to them. Like I know that I
Speaker 2: can be intimidating. I don't want to be intimidating. I
Speaker 2: don't try to be intimidating, but for a range of
Speaker 2: reasons for some people, and I completely understand it. I
Speaker 2: can be inning how other people will go, Oh, you're funny,
Speaker 2: or you're inspiring, or you're clever, or you're an idiot
Speaker 2: or whatever. Is it our job to try to work
Speaker 2: around them or just be ourselves?
Speaker 3: Are you talking from a neurotypical typical person specifically?
Speaker 2: So for a neurotypical person who intersects, do we try
Speaker 2: to I mean, I feel like if I'm trying to
Speaker 2: accommodate them, maybe on being somewhat condescending or like I
Speaker 2: just want to know, and I know there's no single
Speaker 2: best thing.
Speaker 1: But like what is how do we approach that?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Look, there's this whole notion of the double empathy.
Speaker 3: Have you heard about.
Speaker 1: That quig enlighten me doc.
Speaker 3: So this is kind of the viewpoint that it's not
Speaker 3: like nero virgin people have deficits in the way they
Speaker 3: communicate or the way they're socialize, but it's mostly that
Speaker 3: their style of socializing and communicating is different.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so just like new redivergent people may feel
Speaker 3: that the newer typical people communicate in a weed or
Speaker 3: or could or you know uncomfortable way or way that
Speaker 3: makes them feel uncomfortable. Likewise, neurotypical people may feel the
Speaker 3: same when they communicate with someone who's new redivergent. And
Speaker 3: I guess it's not so much about really changing the
Speaker 3: way you communicate, but it's more about having that empathy
Speaker 3: and that understanding that yes, look, this is how this
Speaker 3: person interacts, this is what feels more comfortable for them.
Speaker 3: And if you have that level of understanding and awareness,
Speaker 3: I guess it would naturally help you adapt to that
Speaker 3: way of communication in one way or another.
Speaker 1: Could you thank you for that? Could you tell us
Speaker 1: a bit about the work that you do.
Speaker 2: You're a out thearies, but your day to day, your job, Like,
Speaker 2: what is your job now, obviously you're a psych, Yeah,
Speaker 2: what's your day to day?
Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, as a clinical psych I do a bit
Speaker 3: of therapy, mostly with kids and adolescens, But apart from that,
Speaker 3: I actually do quite a lot of assessments, a lot
Speaker 3: of clinical assessments. So my real passion is helping people
Speaker 3: learn more about who they are and why they do
Speaker 3: certain things their way they do. I guess I'm very
Speaker 3: analytical in the way I think, and I really enjoy
Speaker 3: the process of learning more about the person's experience and
Speaker 3: kind of integrating all the knowledge I gained from them
Speaker 3: in order to make sense of the experience. So I
Speaker 3: show you.
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, sorry.
Speaker 2: So people come to you for a diagnosis or for
Speaker 2: at least to meet you and then a potential diagnosis,
Speaker 2: or people get sent to you maybe they've seen someone
Speaker 2: else another professional, and then they send them to you
Speaker 2: to get a diagnosis. Is that correct?
Speaker 3: That's right?
Speaker 1: Yep? What are I feel like?
Speaker 2: Okay, so let's say I come along and you go, Craig,
Speaker 2: you're this and that. Then I go, all right, thanks
Speaker 2: for those two labels or thanks for it, and then
Speaker 2: I go see, yeah, like there is there a like
Speaker 2: what do you think about all of this? What can improve?
Speaker 2: Because no system is a perfect system, but is it?
Speaker 2: Do you get frustrated with any part of that? As
Speaker 2: like what is the average person that go, here's your diagnosis,
Speaker 2: see you later, or now you've got to go see
Speaker 2: these people will do that or follow these How does
Speaker 2: it work post diagnosis?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Look, I feel like this is a bit of
Speaker 3: an area that's quite problematic at the moment. And thinking
Speaker 3: about adults I work with often they leave the office
Speaker 3: with the diagnosis, but really not having anything else in
Speaker 3: place at that stage. So unfortunately I don't have capacity
Speaker 3: to offer ongoing therapy myself. I may refer to them
Speaker 3: to someone else, but usually there's a pretty long waiting
Speaker 3: time before a person can go and start seeing psychologists.
Speaker 3: Some people feel quite reluctant to start seeing someone from scratch.
Speaker 3: They feel like, well, I've already gone through this experience.
Speaker 3: Why do I have to start, you know, sharing everything,
Speaker 3: or like sharing all of this from scratch. Some people
Speaker 3: who lose the momentum. A lot of people kind of
Speaker 3: feel really inspired by their new knowledge and they feel like, oh,
Speaker 3: I want to really incorporate this into my life. I
Speaker 3: want to review things and to reprocess all the things
Speaker 3: I know and like all the things that have happened
Speaker 3: to me and the way I do things. But that's
Speaker 3: kind of a momentum that they have following the assessment,
Speaker 3: and gradually these declines and I when I sometimes I
Speaker 3: get a chance to catch up with those people I've diagnosed,
Speaker 3: say in a year's time, and most of them still
Speaker 3: haven't got any supports in place. Yeah, yeah, it's almost
Speaker 3: like with time, they just feel well, all right, that's
Speaker 3: now I know that I'm your divergent, but the actual
Speaker 3: change hasn't really happened. And this is really sad. I
Speaker 3: feel like it's an opportunity, or like a huge opportunity
Speaker 3: that's been missed.
Speaker 2: And I think, like with any other in inverted commas
Speaker 2: condition or diagnosis, mental, emotional, physiological, it's not like one
Speaker 2: pill fits every problem, you know, And like we know
Speaker 2: it's pretty well known that statistically not everybody vibes or
Speaker 2: gets a positive outcome with talk therapy. Yeah, like some
Speaker 2: people it does not work for that's kind of we
Speaker 2: know that a lot of people it's pretty good, and
Speaker 2: some people it's amazing. You know, it's trying to figure out,
Speaker 2: not only because I think one of the challenges is
Speaker 2: that when it comes to any post diagnosis intervention, there's
Speaker 2: still got to be nuanced.
Speaker 1: There's still got to be individual kind.
Speaker 2: Of awareness and care for the person, because what will
Speaker 2: work for patient A will not for patient B or
Speaker 2: C necessarily. So it's just like you and I, or
Speaker 2: we might get another lady who's your age, you know,
Speaker 2: very similar to you in terms of physical appearance and
Speaker 2: shape and size and all that stuff, and we feed
Speaker 2: her a particular diet and your particular diet. We get
Speaker 2: two very different outcomes because you're not the same people
Speaker 2: with the same genetics, And therefore, where would be silly
Speaker 2: to expect the same outcome just because we've got the
Speaker 2: same uh you know, intervention, And so too with other
Speaker 2: It's like, oh, here's people with ten different illnesses. Let's
Speaker 2: give them all this one medication because they are all sick,
Speaker 2: and here is medicine. And when you're sick, you need medicine.
Speaker 2: That obviously a silly concept. And then the thing is
Speaker 2: with you assessing people cognitively and emotionally and mentally. It's like, well,
Speaker 2: of course everybody needs not everybody needs something different, but
Speaker 2: a lot of people what will work will be something
Speaker 2: quite maybe out of the box. Like one of my
Speaker 2: friends went to talk therapy for a year, toughted out
Speaker 2: by the way, I've got lots of friends you go
Speaker 2: to therapy and love it everyone, so I'm not canning therapy.
Speaker 2: But for him it just didn't work. And then it
Speaker 2: never surfed in his life, and he went away with
Speaker 2: a bunch of mates who dragged him on a surfing
Speaker 2: weekend and it was like it opened some door of
Speaker 2: joy in his.
Speaker 1: Brain and he now.
Speaker 2: So much so that he surfs. He lives works in Melbourne.
Speaker 2: He drives somewhere twice a week to surf, and sometimes
Speaker 2: it's at five o'clock at night and he's on the
Speaker 2: waves until eight or whatever. And like I've seen him,
Speaker 2: I've spoken with him. He's like, this has changed my life.
Speaker 2: And it's for him the you know, if not the answer,
Speaker 2: A big part of the answer for him was nature
Speaker 2: was waves. Was was just the ebb and flow of
Speaker 2: the water and the tide and the I don't know,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't understand what happened in his
Speaker 2: brain or his mind. But he was like a he's
Speaker 2: just a transformed person. He's less anxious, he's less of
Speaker 2: an overthinker, he's more calm. It's like he cannot wait
Speaker 2: to get there. That's like he's medicine. But nobody's going
Speaker 2: to prescribe surfing.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Okay, you're anxious, right, you need to go to Phillip
Speaker 2: Island and surf.
Speaker 3: You know, there's actually quite a lot of evidence showing
Speaker 3: that people with their digity thrive in nature. So having
Speaker 3: the kind of open green space it's really really helpful
Speaker 3: for the idgy brain. So really thinking beyond just the therapy,
Speaker 3: I think is very important. And I've been seeing people
Speaker 3: who found things like music therapy very helpful. For example,
Speaker 3: especially people who may not be so good, like you know,
Speaker 3: just verbal communication, they find that being able to express
Speaker 3: themselves through art or music is like very helpful. And
Speaker 3: their official sport is another thing. Just like you say, like,
Speaker 3: that's really really essential. So usually that's something I would
Speaker 3: recommend to every person I diagnose with ADHD. Doing something
Speaker 3: that's active. It does make a huge difference in the
Speaker 3: way the person feels, the way their brain works. You're right,
Speaker 3: there are lots of different approaches the person kind of
Speaker 3: needs to consider when thinking about, well, how can I
Speaker 3: make my life? I think the word better is a
Speaker 3: good way to use, but more satisfying.
Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of sorry listeners?
Speaker 2: When I'm in the middle of something, Anna, doctor Anna,
Speaker 2: I go down a rabbit hole for a week or
Speaker 2: two or three. I'm like, I'm all about this, and
Speaker 2: I'm reading that, and I'm listening to that, and I'm
Speaker 2: studying that, or I had a revelation and sadly.
Speaker 1: From my audience they've got to go on. They don't
Speaker 1: have to. If they keep listening, they're going to go
Speaker 1: on a bit of a two or three week journey
Speaker 1: with me into this thing. Right. So have you heard of.
Speaker 2: An author called, I'm sure you have, Eckhart Toll, kind
Speaker 2: of the spiritual teacher. Okay, okay, So he's a very
Speaker 2: famous spiritual teacher. He wrote a book called The Power
Speaker 2: of Now.
Speaker 1: He's written a.
Speaker 2: Bunch a New Earth and his anyway, he went on
Speaker 2: his own journey now, like like you, I'm kind of
Speaker 2: like I used to be quite religious, because that's what
Speaker 2: I grew up in. You know, I was trained and
Speaker 2: told and taught and programmed and manipulated to go, this
Speaker 2: is how life works. This is there's God, there's heaven,
Speaker 2: there's Hell, there's judgment, there's an eternal lake of fire,
Speaker 2: there's and.
Speaker 1: This is how it works, not like this is how
Speaker 1: it might be.
Speaker 2: No. So I wasn't taught how to think. I was
Speaker 2: taught what to think, right, So all that stuff. But
Speaker 2: I'm going to so can I read you something and
Speaker 2: tell me if this is completely weird? But this is
Speaker 2: like almost my summary so called The Power of Now.
Speaker 2: I've read it twice physically, and now I'm listening to it.
Speaker 2: But I haven't listened to it for like twenty years,
Speaker 2: and it keeps blowing my mind. And the first time
Speaker 2: I read it, actually I didn't finish it. I thought,
Speaker 2: this is complete psychobabble, pseudo spiritual garbage. And then I
Speaker 2: read it about five years later and went, oh, this
Speaker 2: is brilliant, This is brilliant. How smart is he?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: Obviously the book was the same and I was a
Speaker 2: bit different. Right, So I wrote this thing this morning.
Speaker 2: I want your thoughts on this. This is a little
Speaker 2: bit of a summary, like about a forty words summary
Speaker 2: of where I'm at in the book Identity with Mind.
Speaker 2: You have a mind, but you are not a mind.
Speaker 2: You have thoughts, but you are not a thought. You
Speaker 2: tell stories, but you are not a story. Your mind
Speaker 2: will get hijacked by fear, but you are not fear.
Speaker 2: It will replay the past and imagine the future, but
Speaker 2: you live in neither. It will convince you that you're
Speaker 2: not enough too much. Both are stories, Neither are you.
Speaker 2: Your mind is a tool, a powerful, messy, creative, unreliable tool,
Speaker 2: but it is not your identity. You are the observer,
Speaker 2: the awareness the one who notices I like to think
Speaker 2: about the mind and me as separate entities.
Speaker 1: What do you think about that?
Speaker 3: It's interesting what you've just read. It's very much aligned
Speaker 3: with the kind of act acceptance and commitment therapy approach.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure if you're familiar with this.
Speaker 1: Apro act actor.
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly so. Kind of being detached, taking that detached
Speaker 3: stance from your thoughts, your feelings, and that really does
Speaker 3: help to observe what's happening for you, to observe your experience,
Speaker 3: to observe the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves from
Speaker 3: that more almost objective perspective. And I think that's an
Speaker 3: amazing skill to have, an amazing thing to remember and
Speaker 3: actually does some And I teach to both kids and adults,
Speaker 3: especially those who are pouring to things like anxiety. I
Speaker 3: think that's something very helpful.
Speaker 1: Now you've done very well. We're going to let you
Speaker 1: go very soon.
Speaker 2: I said too, I said to doctor Anna, before we start,
Speaker 2: how long have you you got?
Speaker 1: I don't want it to be too long.
Speaker 3: I don't blame you experience.
Speaker 1: Are you going? Okay?
Speaker 3: Need to go along with the flow?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: Well, one thing I if I try to think, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, I try to have that theory of mind
Speaker 2: thing going on, even with a podcast, even talking to
Speaker 2: people who are not listening right now but will be
Speaker 2: in the future. I try and make it right now
Speaker 2: for me for them, And I try and think if
Speaker 2: I was listening to this, what would I want to know?
Speaker 2: And there's this left of center question I want to
Speaker 2: ask you, and that is where are you from? I think,
Speaker 2: like we can all hear your beautiful accent. People want
Speaker 2: to go, where did she grow up? Where are you from? Yeah,
Speaker 2: what's the answer to that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, my family comes from Russia. I came here when
Speaker 3: I was ten.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 3: Yes, I still do have the accent. And I yes,
Speaker 3: we speak Russian at home. My husband's also from a
Speaker 3: Russian background, So that's very hard for you to get
Speaker 3: rid of the accent.
Speaker 1: But well, here's the thing.
Speaker 2: Your English is perfect, but you have this beautiful accent
Speaker 2: over the top of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, did it? I don't know, is it?
Speaker 2: Do you remember when you got here how long it
Speaker 2: took you to kind of adapt to the culture, And
Speaker 2: because the cadence of the way that Australians speak and
Speaker 2: the way that we kind of bend words and syllables
Speaker 2: and letters. It's not it's like I mean, but us
Speaker 2: Ausies we go, well, of course we speak English. But
Speaker 2: for any any other English speaking countries that come over
Speaker 2: here and they're like, it's kind of English.
Speaker 3: It's a really interesting question. The thing is, I feel
Speaker 3: like being an immigrant actually is something that got in
Speaker 3: the way for me recognizing my new euro divergence earlier,
Speaker 3: because I have never fully adapted to the Australian culture
Speaker 3: and I was thinking, well, that's just because of my
Speaker 3: you know, because of my Russian background, yes, But then
Speaker 3: I realized, well, actually no, there's more to it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what do you think now? Like what you
Speaker 1: take now?
Speaker 3: So now I feel that it's not about the culture.
Speaker 3: It's not about the Russian or the Australian Culture's just
Speaker 3: about the way my brain works at certain kind of interactions,
Speaker 3: somewhat challenging for me and more effortful for me. And
Speaker 3: it's not to do with language. Your culture is just
Speaker 3: to do with kind of my less typical brain.
Speaker 2: Do you know what I think? Like, I know when
Speaker 2: I turn up to do stuff and it's weird because
Speaker 2: I don't like, I really don't like people putting me
Speaker 2: on a pedestal or thinking that I'm smarter than anyone
Speaker 2: in the room. I might have some knowledge that you don't,
Speaker 2: but knowledge doesn't necessarily equal intelligence.
Speaker 1: By the way, there are lots of knowledgeable.
Speaker 2: People who are I was going to swear, but I
Speaker 2: won't because you're so polite, who are not that smart.
Speaker 2: And there are lots of really smart people who had
Speaker 2: a very limited or intelligent people who have very limited education. Traditionally,
Speaker 2: But when I when I talk to audiences and even
Speaker 2: on this show, I try to be not in a
Speaker 2: disingenuous way, but as open and real about my own
Speaker 2: bullshit and my own insecurities and my own gaps you know, and.
Speaker 1: Talk to people about.
Speaker 2: Well, of course I'm still insecure, and of course I
Speaker 2: still want your approval, and it's not as bad as
Speaker 2: it once was, and of course I'm periodically an overthinker,
Speaker 2: and of course all of these things. But if I
Speaker 2: wait till I get all of my metaphoric shit together
Speaker 2: before I help people, I'm never going to help anyone
Speaker 2: because I'm always a work in progress. I'm never there.
Speaker 2: I might improve or learn or grow or evolve and
Speaker 2: get better, but I still do dumb things. I still
Speaker 2: get things wrong. I still make bad decisions, I still
Speaker 2: take actions that don't work. I still fail, depending on
Speaker 2: how we frame failure. But I think the fact that
Speaker 2: you go by the way I'm neurodivergent, I think that's
Speaker 2: a I think that's an asset.
Speaker 1: I think that gives you. Yes, I'm a doctor of this.
Speaker 2: And that, and yes, I know how to diagnose and
Speaker 2: treat people and work with people. But also by the way,
Speaker 2: I actually think that adds a real layer of credibility
Speaker 2: to people. And I would rather work with you than
Speaker 2: someone with all the other stuff the same, but without that,
Speaker 2: because I know you're going to get me because you're
Speaker 2: a bit like me, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: Yes, and I really hope that this is how people
Speaker 3: will kind of feel when they come to see me,
Speaker 3: being feeling that they have this opportunity to really be
Speaker 3: genuine with me and be understood because I share that experience.
Speaker 3: And yes, it did take a bit of courage kind
Speaker 3: of coming to this decision of speaking openly about this.
Speaker 3: As I said, I have been kind of contemplating with
Speaker 3: I should publicly if enough. It does make me feel
Speaker 3: more vulnerable in a way. But on the other hand,
Speaker 3: I do feel like that's definitely the right decision to make,
Speaker 3: and it's just all about being genuine with myself and
Speaker 3: with the people I work with. Really, I almost felt
Speaker 3: like I was deceiving them, deceiving the people I work
Speaker 3: with by not opening up in terms of how I feel. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that my personal neurodivergence, although it previously hasn't been formalized
Speaker 3: in the way is now, but still I kind of
Speaker 3: had that, Yeah, that.
Speaker 2: In a kind of understanding or knowing, Well, unless you're
Speaker 2: going to announce it on Channel nine News, it doesn't
Speaker 2: get much more public than this podcast. It's like that,
Speaker 2: it's definitely public now, So well done you. I have one,
Speaker 2: I think one last question. Who knows it could be too,
Speaker 2: But my last question for now is I feel like
Speaker 2: this is a bit of a cheesy question, but I
Speaker 2: want to know the answer anyway. What do people get
Speaker 2: wrong or misunderstand and about neurodivergence?
Speaker 3: Lots of things. There's so much stigma unfortunately still existing
Speaker 3: about neurodivergence that even when I told my best friend
Speaker 3: who has known me since she was nine, that neurodiversions,
Speaker 3: she went, well, you don't look in your o divergent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I thought that too.
Speaker 3: The whole notional masking, I think lots of like even
Speaker 3: thinking about the Doosem criteria, So the criteria we use
Speaker 3: for diagnosers, it's all about the visible symptoms, it's all
Speaker 3: about the visible behaviors. But there are people who are
Speaker 3: so good at masking and camouflaging their challenges that they experience,
Speaker 3: so they can perform really well, they can be very sizeable,
Speaker 3: they can communicate really really well, but it's a huge effort,
Speaker 3: and that's where the whole kind of autistic burnout comes
Speaker 3: into play, where the person may kind of be like
Speaker 3: functional a pizza, function really well and may perform really
Speaker 3: well in all sorts of situations, but then they experience
Speaker 3: this period of extreme exhaustion, extreme loss of capacity, which
Speaker 3: may go on for days or even weeks or months
Speaker 3: for some. And so these kind of over lines on
Speaker 3: the observable features is I think that's something that a
Speaker 3: lot of people kind of do when they think about someone,
Speaker 3: whether someone is neurodivergent or not. And that's yeah, I
Speaker 3: think that's a big issue.
Speaker 1: I wonder if I wonder if I'm on the spectrum,
Speaker 1: I wonder if you don't like I mean, I don't.
Speaker 2: I really don't know, but like people think I'm an
Speaker 2: extrovert because I do this right. But the funny thing is,
Speaker 2: and I mean it's not like I'm a shy little wallflower,
Speaker 2: but I really like being by myself. Like I live
Speaker 2: by myself. I've lived by myself since I left school.
Speaker 2: So I get up by myself, go to bed by myself.
Speaker 2: You know, I haven't seen anyone today. It's one o eight.
Speaker 2: I saw a few people at the cafe, but yeah,
Speaker 2: and I feel like I get people overload. If it's
Speaker 2: just that this is maybe you can help me, Like
Speaker 2: if I'm doing something meaningful like work, Like I'm doing
Speaker 2: an all day presentational workshop and I'm in the zone
Speaker 2: and I'm focused and i'm speaking and I'm answering questions
Speaker 2: and I'm working with people and I'm kind of taking
Speaker 2: us all on a.
Speaker 1: Ride for the day. Blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: I'm in it, but then I get home, I'm like,
Speaker 2: I feel like I've just run nine marathons. But when
Speaker 2: I'm in it, I'm fine. But when I'm out, like
Speaker 2: at a dinner, which I don't and it's not that
Speaker 2: dinner's bad or people that you know, but me sitting
Speaker 2: down with people for four hours are starting at six
Speaker 2: point thirty and leaving the restaurant at ten thirty. I
Speaker 2: cannot tell you how much I hate it. Like I
Speaker 2: just I get physically exhausted. Firstly, I don't drink, so
Speaker 2: but everybody else normally drinks, so by an hour into
Speaker 2: the conversation, the conversations are stupid. I also only eat
Speaker 2: one meal, so everyone else will have, you know what,
Speaker 2: three or four different courses. And all of this is good,
Speaker 2: by the way. I'm not criticizing them. In fact, I
Speaker 2: wish sometimes I was more like that, and I could
Speaker 2: go there and have as much fun as they have.
Speaker 2: I just don't, And so by eight o'clock I'm like,
Speaker 2: I'm looking for a way out, and it's you know,
Speaker 2: it's often I do not like meaning Oh I was
Speaker 2: going to say, meaningless conversations. So I have fun bullshit
Speaker 2: conversations with my mates where we're just talking garbage, but
Speaker 2: that's somewhat therapeutic and funny. And then I like having
Speaker 2: meaningful conversations like this, but just where there's just this
Speaker 2: superficial it's almost it's almost like this performative crap where
Speaker 2: you're talking for twenty minutes about nothing.
Speaker 1: Really, I'm like, I cannot wait to get out of it.
Speaker 2: So I don't know, but yeah, I don't enjoy the
Speaker 2: stuff that a lot of people enjoy.
Speaker 1: I don't at all.
Speaker 3: And that's exactly how I experience things. I'm not making
Speaker 3: any connection thoughts over, but that's exactly how I experienced this.
Speaker 3: I really enjoy socializing, I love meaningful conversations, I love
Speaker 3: dip diving into different topics. I love partying in fact,
Speaker 3: but I get so drained afterwards. Yes, and sometimes like
Speaker 3: I may have host a party and really enjoy the
Speaker 3: party in the moment, but then we'll take me a
Speaker 3: few days to get out out of that burnout state.
Speaker 3: And initially I was thinking, what's wrong with me? I
Speaker 3: was thinking, maybe it's my age, maybe it's me being
Speaker 3: you know, close to that perimenopausal stage, and all of
Speaker 3: those things can actually exaggerate the ADHD symptoms in the
Speaker 3: female in particular. But I've realized there's more to it.
Speaker 3: I realized that it is like that loss of capacity
Speaker 3: where even just speaking becomes effortful, moving becomes effortful. So
Speaker 3: it's really like, I mean, we know that neurotypical people
Speaker 3: also experience burnout, but for a neurotypical person it's kind
Speaker 3: of usually linked to that the stress and the fatigue
Speaker 3: that they experience, so it's almost like the phone that's
Speaker 3: running out of battery, and once they get the rest
Speaker 3: they need, they're usually back to the more or less
Speaker 3: normal state, whereas the autistic burnout it's linked to that
Speaker 3: conic conic misalignment with the environmental demands, so kind of
Speaker 3: demand additional demand, and that leads to those states where
Speaker 3: the person just really loses capacity to do the things
Speaker 3: they're quite capable of doing.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And also like in certain environments, I'm happy to be
Speaker 2: up the front, but in normal social environments, I absolutely
Speaker 2: want to be at the back of the room. I
Speaker 2: don't want anyone to draw attention to me. I do
Speaker 2: not want to walk up. The amount of times where
Speaker 2: I've been at a function like a fiftieth or people
Speaker 2: go perhaps come and say something you're funny, I'm like, ah,
Speaker 2: I don't, like.
Speaker 1: I do not want to. We've all heard enough from me.
Speaker 1: We're good. No, no, no, I hate.
Speaker 2: That that stuff where yeah, just for the sake of
Speaker 2: saying something I would rather like. I'd like to go
Speaker 2: to whatever event, have some meaningful chats, talk to a
Speaker 2: few people, not sit up the back with a chip
Speaker 2: on my shoulder, but definitely not have any attention on
Speaker 2: me unless I'm doing my job and that's what my
Speaker 2: job requires. But other than that, none, Yes, So it
Speaker 2: is it is funny. There is a little bit of
Speaker 2: we do have something in common.
Speaker 1: Hey, guess what. Guess what? You survived your first podcast?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Go you. Hey, I feel like I've actually a
Speaker 3: chieved something pretty cool. So thank you for giving me
Speaker 3: this challenge, getting me through this challenge.
Speaker 1: Do you know what for a first time? And you
Speaker 1: did great?
Speaker 2: Well, you did great for anyone really, So it's it's
Speaker 2: very daunting because you don't know what's coming and you.
Speaker 1: Don't like you kind of know.
Speaker 2: I know what a podcast is, and I've heard Craig
Speaker 2: talk on the su or whatever.
Speaker 1: You can do a bit of prep. But sitting on
Speaker 1: the other.
Speaker 2: End of it, I'll tell you something that not many
Speaker 2: people know. I reckon, I've done ten to fifteen podcasts.
Speaker 2: Remember we've done well over two thousand. But where the
Speaker 2: person that the person that I was talking to quite smart,
Speaker 2: good communicators. They've got some interesting story, whether they've written
Speaker 2: a book or done a thing, or their career.
Speaker 1: Or their whatever. And then I put them. Then we
Speaker 1: go live and I go, hey, we won blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: And then the person becomes fifty percent Dummer straight away.
Speaker 2: And it's like the person that I was just chatting
Speaker 2: to has gone somewhere else. And we've had to restart
Speaker 2: many times, and a few I just couldn't put to
Speaker 2: air because so we didn't have to restart. You were good,
Speaker 2: you did great, and you know, now we have to
Speaker 2: get you back. So I appreciate you. Thank you for
Speaker 2: your time. You probably need to go and have a
Speaker 2: bit of a lie down. Now, do they brief, have
Speaker 2: a good talk to yourself.
Speaker 1: Now do you want to yes?
Speaker 2: Now what happens on podcasts is at the end, the
Speaker 2: host said says, is.
Speaker 1: There anything you want to share?
Speaker 2: Do you want to direct people towards anything, be that
Speaker 2: a book, a website, a social media page, anything, or not?
Speaker 1: Really up to you.
Speaker 3: That's a bit of a question. Look, there's just so
Speaker 3: much out the in terms of learning more about neuroda versions,
Speaker 3: which I think is such a fascinating thing. To learn about,
Speaker 3: but there's nothing specific I can recommend at the moment.
Speaker 2: I really meant more your stuff. See, this is how
Speaker 2: fresh you are. This is a chance for you to
Speaker 2: promote you. It's not you promoting anyone else.
Speaker 1: Yeah, not at the minute.
Speaker 3: I know at the moment. Hopefully in the future I'll
Speaker 3: have something to publicly share with others. In fact, I
Speaker 3: would love to maybe publish some books about my personal experience.
Speaker 3: So I have lots of ideas, lots of things I'm
Speaker 3: hoping to pursue the future, But at the moment, I
Speaker 3: don't feel there's anything that's quite ready to be shared
Speaker 3: with others.
Speaker 2: Well, you did share something amazing today, so we appreciate that.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time, Thanks for being brave.
Speaker 2: Congratulations on ticking off your first podcast. You did a
Speaker 2: good job, doctor Anna. We appreciate you. We will say
Speaker 2: goodbye a fair so don't go away. I'll say goodbye
Speaker 2: the listeners and then we'll come back. So hey everyone,
Speaker 2: thanks for that. Appreciate you.
Speaker 1: Hope you got something out of that, and we will
Speaker 1: see you next time.
Speaker 3: Thanks Enna, Thanks Craig, who is a pleasure