WEBVTT - #2148 Neurodiversity - Dr Anastasiya Suetin

0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:02.640
<v Speaker 1>God, are you bloody champions? It's me.

0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:05.760
<v Speaker 2>It's Craig Anthony Harper from the You Project. It's Friday.

0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:10.200
<v Speaker 2>We're sliding towards home plates. The weekend is coming up.

0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:12.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure you're all excited or you're probably listening to

0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:15.000
<v Speaker 2>this next week. You're probably not listening to it right now.

0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:20.320
<v Speaker 2>Good thinking, Harps. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing in

0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:24.160
<v Speaker 2>Australia outside of Australia, we hope you're well today. I'm

0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:27.479
<v Speaker 2>excited because I'm talking a brand NEWI a brand newie,

0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:31.280
<v Speaker 2>somebody that I met recently. We kind of intersected with

0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:33.519
<v Speaker 2>work and a few other people. She's a straight up

0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:35.960
<v Speaker 2>smarty pants, but she'll feel more anxious now that I've

0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:38.400
<v Speaker 2>said she's a smarty pants, but I'm not going to

0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:41.800
<v Speaker 2>recant it. That's just how I roll. Her name is

0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:45.240
<v Speaker 2>doctor Anastasia Sutan. Did I get the surname right?

0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:48.000
<v Speaker 1>Anna? You did? Ah?

0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:52.600
<v Speaker 2>Go me? And we've been kind of chatting a bit

0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:56.240
<v Speaker 2>and doing a few things, and I really enjoy talking

0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:58.680
<v Speaker 2>to people who have which is nearly everyone knowledge that

0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:03.080
<v Speaker 2>I don't have, understanding that I don't have, and anything.

0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:04.399
<v Speaker 1>As you'll know, I'm a little bit.

0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:07.520
<v Speaker 2>Obsessed with the mind and human performance and behavior and

0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:11.800
<v Speaker 2>self management and self regulation and self awareness, all the

0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:15.600
<v Speaker 2>self stuff. How do I optimize me in the middle

0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:20.200
<v Speaker 2>of a suboptimal environment or situation? How do I navigate

0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:24.560
<v Speaker 2>and negotiate and optimize all the stuff that I have

0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:28.600
<v Speaker 2>to deal with, you know, strengths, weaknesses, limitations, And so

0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:30.800
<v Speaker 2>that's what we're going to do. So after that very

0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:33.640
<v Speaker 2>long winded oh you know what I'm going to do.

0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:35.920
<v Speaker 2>Before I stop the long windedness, I'm going to read

0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:36.520
<v Speaker 2>this a little bit.

0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:36.880
<v Speaker 1>Doctor.

0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:39.199
<v Speaker 2>Let's just go with We're going with Doctor Anna today

0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:42.080
<v Speaker 2>is a clinical psychologist with more than fifty I don't

0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:44.039
<v Speaker 2>know how old this bio is, so you can.

0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:47.080
<v Speaker 1>Correct me in a minute. And she's thinking, oh God,

0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:48.360
<v Speaker 1>where did you get that? From?

0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:51.680
<v Speaker 2>More than fifteen years experience working with kids, adolescents and

0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:55.160
<v Speaker 2>adults across clinical, educational and private practice setting. She holds

0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:58.960
<v Speaker 2>Masters and a PhD. Like I said, Smarty Panting clinical

0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:04.800
<v Speaker 2>Psychology and Adolescent Specialization from the UNI of Melbourne is

0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:09.200
<v Speaker 2>a registered and endorsed clinical psychologist with Psychology Board of

0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:12.280
<v Speaker 2>Australia and a whole bunch of other stuff, like a

0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:14.880
<v Speaker 2>whole bunch of other stuff, so I won't keep you

0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:15.720
<v Speaker 2>waiting any longer.

0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:17.000
<v Speaker 1>Hi Anna, how are you?

0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:21.160
<v Speaker 3>Hello? Craig? Hello everyone, lovely to be here. I'm really

0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:22.160
<v Speaker 3>excited to be here.

0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:28.919
<v Speaker 2>In fact, so this is your podcast debut, right mm absolutely?

0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:32.000
<v Speaker 1>Now let me I need you to be honest.

0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:34.920
<v Speaker 2>Is the psychologist who helps people stay calm?

0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:36.440
<v Speaker 1>Is she calm for me?

0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:42.600
<v Speaker 3>I was using all the tools eightish my clients, the breathing,

0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:46.359
<v Speaker 3>their mindfulness. But yes, I'm still feeling a bit nervous,

0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:47.040
<v Speaker 3>to be honest.

0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:52.919
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know they do work. That's okay. That doesn't

0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:55.240
<v Speaker 1>mean you a week or broken. That means you normal?

0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:56.400
<v Speaker 1>How far? I don't know, do you.

0:02:56.480 --> 0:03:00.400
<v Speaker 2>I have this experience often where like I know, I

0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:03.600
<v Speaker 2>know I'm not a fraud, but I feel like a fraud.

0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:06.680
<v Speaker 2>Or I know that I'm good enough just intellectually because

0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:09.560
<v Speaker 2>I have experience and evidence and data that says, Craig,

0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:13.239
<v Speaker 2>You're not a complete idiot, But nonetheless I have that

0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:18.720
<v Speaker 2>feeling of inadequacy or not good enough itis, and that

0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:22.120
<v Speaker 2>can overwhelm like that feeling can overwhelm all the stuff

0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:22.840
<v Speaker 2>you actually know.

0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:26.440
<v Speaker 3>Right, Yes, almost the imposed to syndrome in a way

0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:30.760
<v Speaker 3>which I still sometimes get even that I've been practicing

0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:35.080
<v Speaker 3>for yes, over fifteen years during this kind of work.

0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:39.160
<v Speaker 3>But yes, I guess that kind of performance anxiety be

0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:42.200
<v Speaker 3>a bit of a perfection of myself. That's something that

0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:43.560
<v Speaker 3>I can certainly feel.

0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:46.240
<v Speaker 1>This might sound sexist.

0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:49.559
<v Speaker 2>I don't mean it to be, but my observation anyway

0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:55.320
<v Speaker 2>is that more women seem to be perfectionists rather than

0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:57.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying I think it's obviously both genders, but

0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:00.640
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. Maybe I've just noticed that it seems

0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:03.560
<v Speaker 2>like I know more ladies that are perfectionists than men.

0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:07.320
<v Speaker 2>Men are a little bit like, ah, it'll be right,

0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:08.880
<v Speaker 2>is that true?

0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:12.760
<v Speaker 3>Look, when it comes to perfectionism in general, I'd say

0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:17.120
<v Speaker 3>probably both men and women have that equally. But when

0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:20.200
<v Speaker 3>it comes to the social perfectionism, I'd agree with you.

0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:23.080
<v Speaker 3>I think that women can be more socially perfectionistic.

0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:25.400
<v Speaker 1>And what is that? How does that express?

0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:25.560
<v Speaker 3>Like?

0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:29.560
<v Speaker 2>What does that mean? Socially perfect perfection? Is that the

0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:32.239
<v Speaker 2>way I want to really control how I think people

0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:35.919
<v Speaker 2>see me, or my behavior or the way I dress

0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:37.240
<v Speaker 2>or present to the world.

0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:38.880
<v Speaker 1>Is it that stuff for work?

0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:42.160
<v Speaker 3>Stuff for yeah, very much, all of those. So it's

0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:47.200
<v Speaker 3>like setting really high standards for yourself and then internalizing

0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:51.479
<v Speaker 3>that fear, having that anxiety and stress about well, how

0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:53.960
<v Speaker 3>are you going to perform? How are people going to

0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:58.479
<v Speaker 3>perceive you? And that's kind of grows very much along

0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:01.160
<v Speaker 3>with what you've been working on with your thesis, isn't

0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:02.880
<v Speaker 3>it that needs a perception?

0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:08.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I'm I mean, I've been fascinated with and

0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:09.920
<v Speaker 2>I ain't about me, so we'll get back to you.

0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:12.360
<v Speaker 2>But I've always just been fascinated even when I was

0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:16.640
<v Speaker 2>a kid. I have this vivid recollection of going to

0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:20.120
<v Speaker 2>my mum's uncle, right, So that's how young I was.

0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:24.159
<v Speaker 2>It was my mum's uncle's fiftieth so my mum was

0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:28.960
<v Speaker 2>like thirty and he was fifty and I was six

0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:31.440
<v Speaker 2>because mum had me when she was twenty four. So

0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:33.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm six years old and I'm at this event with

0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:38.000
<v Speaker 2>all these old people, like thirty year old like dinosaur

0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:41.240
<v Speaker 2>human beings, right, And I was the only child at

0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:45.359
<v Speaker 2>this party of about sixty or seventy people, And I

0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:48.920
<v Speaker 2>remember being I was a bit of a weird kid, right,

0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:50.880
<v Speaker 2>because I was an only kid. I was an only child,

0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:55.240
<v Speaker 2>so I spent a disproportionate amount of time around grown

0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:59.960
<v Speaker 2>ups and listening to, for better or worse, adult conversations,

0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.400
<v Speaker 2>and I think I was like, if I don't think

0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:06.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm particularly gifted, but if I do have any natural

0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:10.680
<v Speaker 2>ability or gift, it might be with communication, right and

0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:17.039
<v Speaker 2>understanding how people think ergo my research. But I remember

0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:21.760
<v Speaker 2>listening to old people in inverted Comma's talk and thinking

0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:25.560
<v Speaker 2>how boring they were and how much they could just

0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:30.159
<v Speaker 2>talk about nothing in particular. And I became I didn't

0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:33.239
<v Speaker 2>know what it was, but almost like this social dance

0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:34.240
<v Speaker 2>of how are you good in you?

0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:36.040
<v Speaker 1>And how did this and how did that?

0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:39.719
<v Speaker 2>Oh great, and just all this bullshit like super visual,

0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:44.360
<v Speaker 2>like nobody was actually talking about much that interested me anyway.

0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:47.880
<v Speaker 2>So I think that you know, that's long standing for

0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:55.960
<v Speaker 2>me is being fascinated with other people's experience of life.

0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:58.440
<v Speaker 2>You know that whole thing you and I are in

0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:01.599
<v Speaker 2>the same conversation. Now we're not in the same experience,

0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:07.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, same day, same podcast, same time, same you

0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:10.040
<v Speaker 2>know what looks from the outside the same experience, but

0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:13.760
<v Speaker 2>is totally not. And then becoming aware that, oh, like

0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:17.120
<v Speaker 2>with you, like what's making me nervous or anxious or

0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:19.960
<v Speaker 2>this or that is not the event or the situation

0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:23.840
<v Speaker 2>or Craig, but rather how I process it all, like

0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:29.120
<v Speaker 2>just that recognition of ah, when you think, oh that

0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:32.239
<v Speaker 2>that makes me anxious. Oh no, no, no, you're thinking

0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:35.000
<v Speaker 2>about that makes you anxious? Anxious or this is a

0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:38.240
<v Speaker 2>stressful environment. And then you go, well, how come that

0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:41.920
<v Speaker 2>lady over there is not stressed or that guy is

0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:45.440
<v Speaker 2>not stressed. Then you start to understand the way that

0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:48.520
<v Speaker 2>we self create knowingly or not every day.

0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:51.240
<v Speaker 3>Exactly, and that's where the whole notion of that met

0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:56.840
<v Speaker 3>recognition comes into play. Have you seen that interview with

0:07:57.040 --> 0:08:03.920
<v Speaker 3>Alien Goo feel skier sorry freestyle skier who won the

0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:08.160
<v Speaker 3>gold medal for I think for China, the American Chinese. Yeah, well,

0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:13.400
<v Speaker 3>and she was giving that interviews talking about how metacognition

0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:17.680
<v Speaker 3>helps her in working with her mind and improving her

0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:25.200
<v Speaker 3>performance and making helping her grow not just as a

0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:28.000
<v Speaker 3>skier but as a human being, being like the best

0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:31.920
<v Speaker 3>version of herself. Is really fascinating to hear her speak

0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.280
<v Speaker 3>about that and like being like a scientist exploring her brain,

0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:37.600
<v Speaker 3>exploring how it reacts to different things.

0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:42.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like trying to understand yourself, which is literally why

0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:44.880
<v Speaker 2>this show is called The Youth project, because I think

0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:47.200
<v Speaker 2>the biggest project I have in my life and will

0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:50.400
<v Speaker 2>ever have as me, and not from a selfish point

0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:53.280
<v Speaker 2>of view, but trying to understand me, trying to understand

0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:57.120
<v Speaker 2>me for others, trying to understand why do I react

0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:00.600
<v Speaker 2>that way, why do I operate an ego? Why am

0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:04.319
<v Speaker 2>I insecure when I've done this thirty times? Or why

0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:07.600
<v Speaker 2>do I talk this way or that way? Why are

0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:11.720
<v Speaker 2>my behaviors the way they are? And and you know,

0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:15.600
<v Speaker 2>without doing without being too self indulgent or going down

0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:17.880
<v Speaker 2>the Craig rabbit hole too much, and then you just

0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:23.200
<v Speaker 2>become a weirdo, but just understanding how I operate in

0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.839
<v Speaker 2>the world me and then how I operate.

0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:30.800
<v Speaker 1>For others, like what is my Like what's the Craig impact?

0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:35.560
<v Speaker 2>And that's not an egotistical question, that's a curious one,

0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:39.120
<v Speaker 2>because you know, sometimes I can talk to twenty people

0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:42.960
<v Speaker 2>and I have a negative impact on one and a

0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:47.040
<v Speaker 2>positive impact on another, and You're like, all the outcome

0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.680
<v Speaker 2>is negative or positive, and you go, this is so

0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:52.840
<v Speaker 2>crazy because even then it's not as much about what

0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:56.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm saying. Although I'm a stimulus, but I am not

0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:58.840
<v Speaker 2>the determinant of their experience.

0:09:58.880 --> 0:09:59.800
<v Speaker 1>Does that make sense?

0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:02.920
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely? It's interesting. In my practice, I'm seeing a lot

0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:08.400
<v Speaker 3>of people who actually, well, I actually my area of

0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:10.720
<v Speaker 3>passion is you're a divergence, and I'm seeing lots of

0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:14.680
<v Speaker 3>people who are You're a divergent. And what I find,

0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.840
<v Speaker 3>especially with females, is that they do a lot of

0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:23.360
<v Speaker 3>almost over analyzing. They are over focused on how others

0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:28.760
<v Speaker 3>perceive them, and they constantly scan the environment, They constantly

0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:32.240
<v Speaker 3>scan the other person there with or other people there with,

0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:37.480
<v Speaker 3>and that's where the whole masking comes in. So it's

0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:40.760
<v Speaker 3>not just trying to understand how they're perceived by others,

0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:44.840
<v Speaker 3>but also trying to adjus to make sure that they're

0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:48.960
<v Speaker 3>liked by that person. And that's where the whole kind

0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:53.400
<v Speaker 3>of question is, well, is it always a good thing

0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:57.679
<v Speaker 3>to be very good at that meta perception?

0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:01.640
<v Speaker 1>That is a great question. So here's my answer.

0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:05.440
<v Speaker 2>I think what you were talking about there is largely

0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:08.840
<v Speaker 2>driven by fear. Please like me, please accept me, Please

0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:10.080
<v Speaker 2>think I'm good enough.

0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:12.120
<v Speaker 1>Pretty enough, smart enough, like.

0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:16.960
<v Speaker 2>It's a fear based driver, whereas what I want to

0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:19.319
<v Speaker 2>encourage is a curiosity based driver.

0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:22.280
<v Speaker 1>So that like, for example, if.

0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:25.120
<v Speaker 2>People think I'm handsome, or ugly smart or dumb whatever,

0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:27.120
<v Speaker 2>I honestly don't care.

0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:29.280
<v Speaker 1>It's like, well, that is what it is. Do I

0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:31.199
<v Speaker 1>want people to like me? Yes? I do?

0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:33.880
<v Speaker 2>Why because I'm human and I'm still a bit insecure.

0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:37.280
<v Speaker 2>But if they don't like me, also, that's okay.

0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:42.320
<v Speaker 1>But here's the thing. If you understand.

0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:48.360
<v Speaker 2>More accurately or with greater insight, you understand the Anna

0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:52.560
<v Speaker 2>experience for Craig, you know what it's. You've got an

0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:57.640
<v Speaker 2>insight into how I experience you. Then now you have

0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:01.440
<v Speaker 2>a conversational and sociological advance because you know something that

0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:05.920
<v Speaker 2>the average person doesn't know. So too, Like you know,

0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:10.080
<v Speaker 2>if you're working with somebody right now who's say, you know,

0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:15.280
<v Speaker 2>on the spectrum in some way versus somebody who isn't,

0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:20.920
<v Speaker 2>you will automatically adjust your conversational style perhaps and the content.

0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:21.320
<v Speaker 1>Of your words.

0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:24.160
<v Speaker 2>And you know, but you do that automatically because you

0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:27.480
<v Speaker 2>know this will be more appropriate with this person and

0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:29.720
<v Speaker 2>this will be more But that's something that we do

0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:32.680
<v Speaker 2>on autopilot. But then when you kind of fine tune

0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:37.720
<v Speaker 2>that into you know, like you think about when you'll

0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:38.280
<v Speaker 2>say talk.

0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:39.760
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if you ever do. I'm sure you do.

0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:41.720
<v Speaker 1>But when you talk to a group of twenty thirty,

0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:45.840
<v Speaker 1>forty fifty, now you've got now you've got fifty people

0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:49.720
<v Speaker 1>in the room processing you and experiencing you.

0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:53.800
<v Speaker 2>In their own unique way. And that because the only

0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:57.600
<v Speaker 2>person who thinks like you in the room as you, yep,

0:12:58.600 --> 0:12:59.839
<v Speaker 2>and so to be able.

0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:04.120
<v Speaker 4>To factor that in real time, you know, that's that's

0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.439
<v Speaker 4>one of the does does that come into play when

0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:11.440
<v Speaker 4>you're working with people who are neuro divergent trying to

0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:14.280
<v Speaker 4>understand there they're in the moment reality?

0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:21.800
<v Speaker 3>I would say so yes, And look, something I wanted

0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:25.360
<v Speaker 3>to say is, well, we've had we've known each other

0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:30.240
<v Speaker 3>for a pretty short period of time, but there was

0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:33.760
<v Speaker 3>something I actually wanted to share with you, and in fact,

0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.240
<v Speaker 3>something I wanted to share publicly for the first time

0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:41.480
<v Speaker 3>since we're speaking about neuridivergence. Is that actually I've recently

0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:45.960
<v Speaker 3>learned about being uridivergent myself. So that's something.

0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:50.640
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I'm quite thank you, thank you so much.

0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.079
<v Speaker 2>Like we had a quick chat before this and and

0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:56.360
<v Speaker 2>I told me that, and I went, like, we've met

0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:59.280
<v Speaker 2>a few times, not a lot, but yeah, I went, yeah,

0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:02.120
<v Speaker 2>well I'm not and not in a good or bad way,

0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:06.600
<v Speaker 2>just as in a well yeah, it's kind of like

0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:08.600
<v Speaker 2>me going, I don't have heaps of hair on my head.

0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:10.800
<v Speaker 2>You go, well, of course you don't. I can see it.

0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:13.480
<v Speaker 2>For me, it was a little bit like that. But

0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:17.160
<v Speaker 2>how is that for you now? So you've got this

0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:20.800
<v Speaker 2>new knowledge or awareness, how is that for you?

0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:28.680
<v Speaker 3>Yes, look, it's empowering, I'd say, it's also almost liberating.

0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:33.680
<v Speaker 3>So I've I've been recently diagnosed with AUDHD, so that's

0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:39.920
<v Speaker 3>both autism and ADHD. I felt pretty much the same

0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:42.040
<v Speaker 3>way as you did when I share the news with you,

0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:44.640
<v Speaker 3>in the fact that that's a surprising. In fact, when

0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:46.720
<v Speaker 3>I went for the assessment, I knew exactly that this

0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:50.960
<v Speaker 3>is what I am. For a long time I have

0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:56.040
<v Speaker 3>been contemplating with I am your divergent, but somehow I

0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:59.080
<v Speaker 3>didn't feel like I could fit into one of those

0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:03.960
<v Speaker 3>boxes of being an ADHDR or being autistic in that

0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:09.560
<v Speaker 3>kind of perfect way. But then when I started thinking

0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:13.920
<v Speaker 3>about the actual AUDIHD profile, I thought, well, that's me,

0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:18.760
<v Speaker 3>that's exactly me. And interestingly, up until twenty and thirteen,

0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:22.880
<v Speaker 3>so based on the previous DSM, the M four, we

0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:26.760
<v Speaker 3>couldn't actually diagnose someone with both of those conditions and

0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:33.400
<v Speaker 3>that's fascinating. So just thinking about it, how our understanding

0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:39.080
<v Speaker 3>of our awareness of neurodivergence has been evolving really quickly

0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:43.440
<v Speaker 3>and really shifting the way we think about neurodivergence. So

0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:47.800
<v Speaker 3>a lot of people, I would imagine I'm the same

0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:52.320
<v Speaker 3>kind of prior as me, feeling that they don't quite

0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:57.880
<v Speaker 3>fit into either of those. But the AUDIOHD profile really

0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.920
<v Speaker 3>kind of resonated with me. I could really feel that

0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:04.560
<v Speaker 3>this explains so much about me and gives me so

0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:08.400
<v Speaker 3>much insight into why I do certain things the way

0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:11.160
<v Speaker 3>I do, why certain things are easier, why certain things

0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:14.680
<v Speaker 3>are harder. So I feel like it's been a really

0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:21.680
<v Speaker 3>kind of helpful experience for me to gain that self awareness,

0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:22.480
<v Speaker 3>gain that level.

0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:27.200
<v Speaker 2>Well, thank you for sharing. That is a gift and

0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:31.400
<v Speaker 2>well done you. Now is the term that you're using,

0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:37.880
<v Speaker 2>or DHD, so it's an amalgamation of autism and ADHD

0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:41.440
<v Speaker 2>so or DHD yeh DHD.

0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:44.800
<v Speaker 1>So what are the things that for you.

0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:48.720
<v Speaker 2>Are easier and harder because of that or in relation

0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:51.160
<v Speaker 2>to that, I'll.

0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:55.720
<v Speaker 3>Start with the easier ones. In fact, there are lots

0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:58.640
<v Speaker 3>of things I love about the way my brain works.

0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:02.560
<v Speaker 3>I am a very curious person. I get really super

0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:06.280
<v Speaker 3>passionate about things. I mean to really excited. I have

0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:11.359
<v Speaker 3>lots of things I love doing, and I when I'm

0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:14.119
<v Speaker 3>feeling good, I feel like I have end loose energy

0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:17.520
<v Speaker 3>to do things. So you probably know that I have

0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:25.240
<v Speaker 3>five kids and I love that kind of busy, full on,

0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:27.040
<v Speaker 3>exciting lifestyle.

0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:29.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:33.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, But can I ask you another weird question?

0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:33.560
<v Speaker 3>Right?

0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:36.840
<v Speaker 1>Go ahead, because I'm just I'm curious.

0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:40.000
<v Speaker 2>So you and I met at a meeting, at a

0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:40.680
<v Speaker 2>business meeting.

0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:46.439
<v Speaker 1>We'll just leave it at that, right, And how do

0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:47.040
<v Speaker 1>I say this?

0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:49.480
<v Speaker 2>It's like I feel like I think you and I

0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:51.800
<v Speaker 2>get on well, right, Like I said, we've spoken four

0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:56.400
<v Speaker 2>or five times, but I felt like you and I

0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:59.399
<v Speaker 2>couldn't be more different, Like there are things that we

0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:02.320
<v Speaker 2>have in kind, but at one end of the scale,

0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:07.200
<v Speaker 2>whatever scale we're talking about, is jumbo fatty Harps Craig Harper.

0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:09.399
<v Speaker 2>And at the other end of the scale, as you

0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:12.280
<v Speaker 2>not a good or a bad end? Just did you

0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:15.159
<v Speaker 2>like you must have had that awareness when you met me,

0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:18.600
<v Speaker 2>because I had that awareness, not in a like this

0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:21.480
<v Speaker 2>isn't a problem, this is I'm glad you're not like me.

0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.919
<v Speaker 1>You're glad. You're glad, I'm not. You know, you're not

0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:29.320
<v Speaker 1>like me, or vice versa. Right, what was that like?

0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:34.840
<v Speaker 3>I'm used to sharing space with people who are very,

0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:40.119
<v Speaker 3>very different, and I love that. I love being around

0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:44.360
<v Speaker 3>people who are who see things differently to me, who

0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:48.480
<v Speaker 3>perceive things differently to me. I find that very fascinating.

0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:52.320
<v Speaker 3>So my kind of curious part of the brain is

0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:57.480
<v Speaker 3>really excited about being able to interact with people who

0:18:57.520 --> 0:18:59.960
<v Speaker 3>are different, and I think that as a psychologist, I'm

0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:03.399
<v Speaker 3>also doing that quite a bit, kind of constantly stepping

0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:07.680
<v Speaker 3>into other people's shoes some as you previously said, trying

0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:11.159
<v Speaker 3>to figure out how they perceive me, trying to figure

0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:15.359
<v Speaker 3>out what this experience is like for them. I love that.

0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:20.400
<v Speaker 1>How do we here's a tricky a question. Okay, so

0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:21.200
<v Speaker 1>how do we?

0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:24.199
<v Speaker 2>You know, I've got biases, I've got certain things that

0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:27.480
<v Speaker 2>I think and believe and hold to be true. I'm

0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:29.439
<v Speaker 2>also very aware that I've been wrong a lot, so

0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:33.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't hold these ideas too tightly. But you know,

0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:38.119
<v Speaker 2>when you go and work with someone or I don't know,

0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:41.120
<v Speaker 2>there are specific tools that you use, but just in general,

0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:45.560
<v Speaker 2>you're always looking through the anna window. I'm always looking

0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:50.200
<v Speaker 2>through the Craig window, and sometimes that helps and sometimes

0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:51.160
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't help.

0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:55.560
<v Speaker 1>Ye, are you ever awareness? Are you ever aware?

0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:58.480
<v Speaker 2>Or I don't know, do you ever think about is

0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:01.720
<v Speaker 2>there in this moment in this like even with a podcast,

0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:04.160
<v Speaker 2>this is your first time, this is my millionth time,

0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:08.000
<v Speaker 2>and so by the way, you're doing great, But you know,

0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:09.720
<v Speaker 2>like coming into it, it's like, well, this is.

0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:11.919
<v Speaker 1>New, this is unknown, this is what is he going

0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:12.480
<v Speaker 1>to ask me?

0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:16.480
<v Speaker 2>Because there's no brief, there's no preparation, there's no rehearsal.

0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:20.240
<v Speaker 2>Do you ever think about how else can I think

0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:23.000
<v Speaker 2>about this other than that any way which might be

0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:24.440
<v Speaker 2>a better way?

0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:28.400
<v Speaker 3>Well, I guess it's all about kind of zooming out

0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:34.359
<v Speaker 3>a bit and trying to, yeah, trying to think about

0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:40.400
<v Speaker 3>the situations that kind of external perspective a bit. But

0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:43.840
<v Speaker 3>I still have my own lens that I'm looking through,

0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:51.400
<v Speaker 3>and I guess that this is why I try to

0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:56.600
<v Speaker 3>make sure that my lens is as I can't say,

0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:05.080
<v Speaker 3>I can't say objective, but us I don't know what's

0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:06.240
<v Speaker 3>the best word to use.

0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:10.560
<v Speaker 2>Kind of I think I think objective as you can

0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:14.080
<v Speaker 2>as you can be right, and that's possible.

0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:17.520
<v Speaker 3>Probably that's the word right right thinking about.

0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:21.720
<v Speaker 2>I feel like part of self awareness and self understanding

0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:25.840
<v Speaker 2>is realizing how much self awareness you don't have.

0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:32.640
<v Speaker 3>My view is always going to be subjective, but I'm

0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:37.240
<v Speaker 3>being curious. I'm really trying to allow the person to

0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:43.680
<v Speaker 3>share their experience with me, and I'm just the person

0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:50.280
<v Speaker 3>who kind of listens and processes this, and yes and

0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:53.520
<v Speaker 3>for kind of facilitates this process.

0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:55.760
<v Speaker 2>When you we're going to jump into your work a

0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:58.000
<v Speaker 2>little bit in a moment, but just staying in the

0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:04.760
<v Speaker 2>personal space with you. So when you found this out, well,

0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:09.920
<v Speaker 2>I guess the first people you told about your AUDIHD

0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:11.160
<v Speaker 2>was your family?

0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:12.359
<v Speaker 1>Am I correct?

0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:13.320
<v Speaker 3>My husband?

0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:17.880
<v Speaker 1>Yes? Did he go and or did he go oh

0:22:17.920 --> 0:22:18.760
<v Speaker 1>my god?

0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:22.200
<v Speaker 3>No? He was just so neutral about it. I was

0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:25.000
<v Speaker 3>actually a bit shocked. He was like, we were cooking

0:22:25.040 --> 0:22:27.359
<v Speaker 3>dinners together. Then I went, you know what, I'm pretty

0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:31.760
<v Speaker 3>sure I have AUDIOHD and he goes to, whatever, if

0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:34.280
<v Speaker 3>you told me you're an alien, I don't really care.

0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:38.160
<v Speaker 1>What a good dude.

0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:42.920
<v Speaker 2>And did you feel apprehensive about telling people or did

0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:45.200
<v Speaker 2>you kind of feel a little bit relieved of Well,

0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:48.960
<v Speaker 2>this all makes sense. This kind of is more understandable.

0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:55.320
<v Speaker 3>It's sound a bit awkward, but at the end I

0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:59.679
<v Speaker 3>did feel relieved. I feel like it's still a bit

0:22:59.720 --> 0:23:05.439
<v Speaker 3>of a process where people will continue kind of like

0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:08.679
<v Speaker 3>people around me will continue questioning about this and what

0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:12.640
<v Speaker 3>it is like, possibly reflecting what this means for them personally.

0:23:14.359 --> 0:23:16.840
<v Speaker 3>So it's only kind of the beginning of that journey

0:23:18.359 --> 0:23:22.880
<v Speaker 3>because it's all very new. But ultimately I think it's

0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:24.880
<v Speaker 3>been a really positive experience.

0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:28.359
<v Speaker 2>I feel like it's going to give you a level

0:23:28.400 --> 0:23:37.160
<v Speaker 2>of understanding and empathy and awareness that other clinicians might

0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:41.160
<v Speaker 2>not have. I'm not saying won't, but because obviously you've

0:23:41.560 --> 0:23:44.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, you're a clinical psychologist, you've got a PhD

0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:47.840
<v Speaker 2>in that, you know, you've got a master's degree, and

0:23:47.880 --> 0:23:50.159
<v Speaker 2>you've done a huge amount of work in their space.

0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:56.320
<v Speaker 2>But also you just you know, you're living kind of

0:23:56.320 --> 0:23:58.840
<v Speaker 2>a version of what other people are living. I know

0:23:58.880 --> 0:24:02.280
<v Speaker 2>there's lots of variation, but that I kind of think

0:24:02.320 --> 0:24:05.440
<v Speaker 2>it makes a little bit of a superpower almost.

0:24:05.840 --> 0:24:07.680
<v Speaker 3>I agree with you, And that's the thing I've been

0:24:07.840 --> 0:24:10.639
<v Speaker 3>kind of experiencing for a long time. When working with

0:24:10.840 --> 0:24:17.480
<v Speaker 3>your divergent people, I will almost assume things they're experiencing

0:24:17.520 --> 0:24:20.600
<v Speaker 3>and share my assumptions with them and they go, yes, exactly,

0:24:20.640 --> 0:24:24.600
<v Speaker 3>that's it, and he's surprised, like, how do I know

0:24:24.760 --> 0:24:28.480
<v Speaker 3>all those things? And initially I just thought, well, I

0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:31.600
<v Speaker 3>just kind of have that intuitive feeling or maybe that

0:24:31.800 --> 0:24:34.280
<v Speaker 3>knowledge that I've gained. But now I realize it's more

0:24:34.320 --> 0:24:38.359
<v Speaker 3>than that. It's my personal experience that helps me build

0:24:38.359 --> 0:24:42.360
<v Speaker 3>that level of understanding and empathy, and that's really helpful

0:24:42.440 --> 0:24:45.600
<v Speaker 3>as a clinician. I think that's so it is a superpower.

0:24:46.480 --> 0:24:51.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think that intersection of you know, education and training,

0:24:52.640 --> 0:24:56.600
<v Speaker 2>but you know, in the moment kind of learning on

0:24:56.680 --> 0:25:01.280
<v Speaker 2>the job, learning experience, empathy, aware insight, all of the

0:25:01.359 --> 0:25:03.639
<v Speaker 2>stuff you can't really teach at a university.

0:25:03.920 --> 0:25:05.680
<v Speaker 1>So we need the training, we need to understand the

0:25:05.680 --> 0:25:08.000
<v Speaker 1>brain and the mind, and we need to understand human behavior.

0:25:09.320 --> 0:25:12.440
<v Speaker 2>But at the same time, you know, all that additional

0:25:12.520 --> 0:25:17.240
<v Speaker 2>stuff I think is going to make not your job easier,

0:25:17.240 --> 0:25:19.280
<v Speaker 2>but I think it's going to make you more effective

0:25:19.320 --> 0:25:22.040
<v Speaker 2>as a practitioner, or it might already be doing that,

0:25:22.119 --> 0:25:23.239
<v Speaker 2>of course, you know.

0:25:23.280 --> 0:25:25.440
<v Speaker 1>And I think the other thing too, is.

0:25:26.840 --> 0:25:32.120
<v Speaker 2>Like, this is going to sound contrary and contradictory, and well,

0:25:32.160 --> 0:25:35.520
<v Speaker 2>I think it's great to be academically qualified because we

0:25:35.560 --> 0:25:40.280
<v Speaker 2>do lots of good learning, and we start to understand

0:25:40.280 --> 0:25:44.240
<v Speaker 2>the science behind whatever the treatment or the diagnoses or

0:25:44.280 --> 0:25:48.399
<v Speaker 2>the whatever. You know, we understand the research, and but

0:25:48.480 --> 0:25:51.159
<v Speaker 2>there's stuff that you know, Like I know, I was

0:25:51.240 --> 0:25:58.240
<v Speaker 2>basically an inverted commas using psychology and my understanding of

0:25:58.840 --> 0:26:01.359
<v Speaker 2>my natural and experience and on the job learning with

0:26:01.480 --> 0:26:06.520
<v Speaker 2>psychology and human behavior, and like when I was in

0:26:06.560 --> 0:26:09.720
<v Speaker 2>my twenties, even though I wasn't a psychologist, and even

0:26:09.840 --> 0:26:12.879
<v Speaker 2>you know, I'm just finishing my PhD in psychology, I

0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:17.920
<v Speaker 2>don't actually think drastically different because I came from being

0:26:18.119 --> 0:26:21.920
<v Speaker 2>small best kid to being a kind of quite fit

0:26:22.080 --> 0:26:26.119
<v Speaker 2>athletic kid to working with people in the gym. And

0:26:26.160 --> 0:26:28.480
<v Speaker 2>one thing that everyone has in common when they come

0:26:28.520 --> 0:26:30.640
<v Speaker 2>to a gym is that they want to change. Well,

0:26:30.720 --> 0:26:34.720
<v Speaker 2>change is a multi dimensional process. It's not about your

0:26:34.720 --> 0:26:37.880
<v Speaker 2>body fat percentage or your lower back or your blood pressure.

0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:42.120
<v Speaker 2>It's about one hundred things. So even though I knew

0:26:42.160 --> 0:26:45.720
<v Speaker 2>how to prescribe exercise, and I understood pretty well anatomy

0:26:45.720 --> 0:26:49.800
<v Speaker 2>and physiology and biomechanics and nutrition and energy systems and

0:26:49.840 --> 0:26:51.840
<v Speaker 2>all of those things which you kind of need to know,

0:26:52.680 --> 0:26:55.040
<v Speaker 2>but if you don't understand the human who lives in

0:26:55.080 --> 0:26:59.600
<v Speaker 2>the body, you can't do a great job. So I

0:26:59.720 --> 0:27:02.640
<v Speaker 2>was all more fascinated with why they think the way

0:27:02.680 --> 0:27:04.399
<v Speaker 2>they do, and why they choose the way they do,

0:27:04.440 --> 0:27:06.760
<v Speaker 2>and why they behave the way they do. Then I

0:27:06.920 --> 0:27:09.760
<v Speaker 2>was in their body composition, and that kind of helped

0:27:09.760 --> 0:27:12.359
<v Speaker 2>me become quite good at my job.

0:27:12.440 --> 0:27:15.320
<v Speaker 1>But that was before I sat in one lecture of anything, you.

0:27:15.280 --> 0:27:20.720
<v Speaker 3>Know, thinking about change. I mean, yes, exactly. You can't

0:27:20.760 --> 0:27:25.000
<v Speaker 3>just focus on one thing without actually focusing all the

0:27:25.080 --> 0:27:29.000
<v Speaker 3>other areas which are implicating that.

0:27:30.000 --> 0:27:32.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Like we were chatting the other day about the

0:27:32.880 --> 0:27:37.000
<v Speaker 2>importance of even for people who do get diagnosed, you know,

0:27:37.400 --> 0:27:40.919
<v Speaker 2>somewhere in the neurodivergent space. And then you go, So

0:27:40.960 --> 0:27:43.200
<v Speaker 2>there's that, there's understanding that and what's going on there.

0:27:43.200 --> 0:27:46.320
<v Speaker 2>But then there's also I hope they get some good sleep. Also,

0:27:46.800 --> 0:27:49.560
<v Speaker 2>I hope they don't drink too much booze. Also, I

0:27:49.600 --> 0:27:51.600
<v Speaker 2>hope they do I hope they have a kind of

0:27:51.680 --> 0:27:55.840
<v Speaker 2>active lifestyle. Also, you know, I hope they do meaningful

0:27:55.920 --> 0:27:59.440
<v Speaker 2>work that stimulates them and makes them feel like they

0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:00.000
<v Speaker 2>have a purpose.

0:28:00.320 --> 0:28:02.400
<v Speaker 1>Like there's all of these other things that.

0:28:02.400 --> 0:28:05.040
<v Speaker 2>You won't find in the DSM five or any well

0:28:05.160 --> 0:28:07.800
<v Speaker 2>whatever you know, where you're talking about, how do I

0:28:07.880 --> 0:28:09.880
<v Speaker 2>help this person manage their.

0:28:09.720 --> 0:28:15.160
<v Speaker 1>Mind or their brain and what are all the things

0:28:15.200 --> 0:28:18.159
<v Speaker 1>that we don't really talk about much that affect that

0:28:18.600 --> 0:28:21.679
<v Speaker 1>because it's that other stuff as well, that broader understanding

0:28:22.200 --> 0:28:25.440
<v Speaker 1>of the totality of the challenge.

0:28:26.359 --> 0:28:30.280
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, and the more we learn about how people here

0:28:30.320 --> 0:28:33.920
<v Speaker 3>on your a divergent function, the more we understand the

0:28:33.960 --> 0:28:38.280
<v Speaker 3>importance of this holistic approach, the kind of really thinking

0:28:38.280 --> 0:28:42.840
<v Speaker 3>about making some meaningful changes in terms of the person's

0:28:42.840 --> 0:28:48.520
<v Speaker 3>everyday lifestyle and functioning. So just the other day I

0:28:48.560 --> 0:28:52.400
<v Speaker 3>saw the article which said that people say who have

0:28:52.760 --> 0:28:59.680
<v Speaker 3>ADHD have a much lower life expectancy, like on average, yeah.

0:29:01.600 --> 0:29:02.080
<v Speaker 1>Or something.

0:29:02.720 --> 0:29:07.680
<v Speaker 3>Oh, look for males, it's about seven years less. For females,

0:29:07.720 --> 0:29:10.040
<v Speaker 3>which I was really surprised to hear, it's about nine

0:29:10.120 --> 0:29:10.800
<v Speaker 3>years less.

0:29:11.200 --> 0:29:14.760
<v Speaker 1>Wow, And why is that shock?

0:29:14.920 --> 0:29:15.480
<v Speaker 3>Why is that?

0:29:16.600 --> 0:29:17.880
<v Speaker 1>Doctor? And why is that?

0:29:18.560 --> 0:29:20.640
<v Speaker 3>I think there are lots of ways to explain this.

0:29:21.880 --> 0:29:27.280
<v Speaker 3>One is that people with ADHD tend to have high

0:29:27.400 --> 0:29:30.560
<v Speaker 3>levels of impulsivity. In general, they are more prone to

0:29:30.760 --> 0:29:34.520
<v Speaker 3>different types of addictions, so that can have a big

0:29:34.560 --> 0:29:38.080
<v Speaker 3>impact on their lifestyle. But also we know that our

0:29:38.160 --> 0:29:42.080
<v Speaker 3>DHD goes a lot goes hand in hand with different

0:29:42.560 --> 0:29:52.360
<v Speaker 3>physical health conditions like heart conditions, obesity, stress, anxiety. All

0:29:52.400 --> 0:29:57.240
<v Speaker 3>of those things contribute to the person's health and legality.

0:30:00.840 --> 0:30:05.200
<v Speaker 3>Suicide is another thing. So people with who are your

0:30:05.240 --> 0:30:10.240
<v Speaker 3>idivision have high risks of suicide. So there are lots

0:30:10.240 --> 0:30:12.880
<v Speaker 3>and lots of factors to consider, but I think it's

0:30:12.960 --> 0:30:17.160
<v Speaker 3>just something that really stresses they need for that more

0:30:18.120 --> 0:30:19.680
<v Speaker 3>holistic approach.

0:30:20.960 --> 0:30:26.360
<v Speaker 2>What is okay, So let's let's pair it right back.

0:30:26.480 --> 0:30:31.200
<v Speaker 2>So somebody's listening to this and they kind of know

0:30:31.280 --> 0:30:38.320
<v Speaker 2>what neurodivergence is, but can you give us firstly, so

0:30:38.440 --> 0:30:42.240
<v Speaker 2>two part question stand by. Part one of the questions

0:30:42.240 --> 0:30:44.520
<v Speaker 2>is can you give us a kind of a lay

0:30:44.800 --> 0:30:52.320
<v Speaker 2>person's kind of easy peasy to understand definition of neurodivergence.

0:30:52.440 --> 0:30:53.240
<v Speaker 1>In your language.

0:30:53.280 --> 0:30:55.920
<v Speaker 2>And then the second thing is, well, let's start there

0:30:55.960 --> 0:30:59.280
<v Speaker 2>before I give you, like, just help us just understand,

0:31:00.760 --> 0:31:03.680
<v Speaker 2>because I think we all guess it's like, oh you're different, cool,

0:31:03.800 --> 0:31:05.840
<v Speaker 2>how what what kind of is it?

0:31:07.040 --> 0:31:09.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, look, without going too much into the kind of

0:31:09.680 --> 0:31:13.600
<v Speaker 3>the technical nuances, it's really having your brain. That's why,

0:31:14.480 --> 0:31:17.680
<v Speaker 3>in a different way to what the kind of the

0:31:17.720 --> 0:31:22.400
<v Speaker 3>society deems as the stand up setting. So it's like

0:31:22.520 --> 0:31:25.080
<v Speaker 3>having a different operating system and a way so this

0:31:25.840 --> 0:31:28.800
<v Speaker 3>like we can imagine this the Mac system and the

0:31:28.880 --> 0:31:32.560
<v Speaker 3>Microsoft system, and there are different systems. One's better for something,

0:31:32.640 --> 0:31:37.280
<v Speaker 3>the other is better for something else. But if we

0:31:37.800 --> 0:31:42.040
<v Speaker 3>try to run the say the MAC program on a

0:31:42.200 --> 0:31:45.320
<v Speaker 3>Microsoft system, it's going to be it's not going to

0:31:45.400 --> 0:31:49.360
<v Speaker 3>be it's not going to be optimal in the way

0:31:49.400 --> 0:31:53.000
<v Speaker 3>it operates. And same with someone who's near a diversion.

0:31:53.120 --> 0:31:57.000
<v Speaker 3>So we kind of the society expects them to function

0:31:58.240 --> 0:32:05.120
<v Speaker 3>in a social setting, which is which often doesn't match

0:32:05.200 --> 0:32:08.440
<v Speaker 3>the needs of someone who's neurodivision because the way they

0:32:09.200 --> 0:32:11.920
<v Speaker 3>see things, the way they feel things, the way they

0:32:12.040 --> 0:32:18.760
<v Speaker 3>perceive and sense the world is different to the neurotypicals,

0:32:18.920 --> 0:32:23.120
<v Speaker 3>and that can be quite disabling in.

0:32:23.080 --> 0:32:27.720
<v Speaker 2>A way, I feel like sometimes, So we have a

0:32:27.760 --> 0:32:30.000
<v Speaker 2>guy who comes on here a lot. His name's are

0:32:30.000 --> 0:32:34.400
<v Speaker 2>Bobby Capuccio, and he had a brain injury when he

0:32:34.440 --> 0:32:36.600
<v Speaker 2>was a kid. By the way, he's super smart. He's

0:32:36.600 --> 0:32:40.040
<v Speaker 2>got this like idetic memory. He's a great communicator. He's

0:32:40.040 --> 0:32:45.200
<v Speaker 2>actually a coach and brilliant, right, but he's got Tourette's

0:32:45.240 --> 0:32:47.160
<v Speaker 2>so he's got all these ticks and he's one of

0:32:47.240 --> 0:32:49.320
<v Speaker 2>my he's one of my best friends, right, But he's

0:32:49.320 --> 0:32:52.160
<v Speaker 2>got all these ticks, and he's you know, he's quirky

0:32:52.240 --> 0:32:57.040
<v Speaker 2>and he's and I think when people sometimes meet him,

0:32:57.640 --> 0:33:01.800
<v Speaker 2>they don't know who exactly how to talk to him,

0:33:01.960 --> 0:33:05.120
<v Speaker 2>although he is actually a brilliant communicator and all that.

0:33:06.800 --> 0:33:09.120
<v Speaker 2>And you know, because I've known him a long time

0:33:09.200 --> 0:33:12.800
<v Speaker 2>and it's you know, I'm not even aware of it

0:33:12.840 --> 0:33:16.120
<v Speaker 2>anymore because he's a friend. Then I see some people

0:33:16.160 --> 0:33:19.040
<v Speaker 2>respond around him, and sometimes he says things that are

0:33:19.040 --> 0:33:21.240
<v Speaker 2>funny to him but not funny to anyone else.

0:33:21.680 --> 0:33:25.440
<v Speaker 1>Like sometimes you know that, and you're like, oh, okay,

0:33:27.080 --> 0:33:30.200
<v Speaker 1>is it I mean, it's nobody's job. But when it.

0:33:30.120 --> 0:33:32.840
<v Speaker 2>Comes to people that are really different from us, whatever

0:33:32.880 --> 0:33:35.720
<v Speaker 2>that means, whether or not we're on the spectrum or

0:33:35.720 --> 0:33:38.440
<v Speaker 2>they're not, or when you're a divergent, is it our

0:33:38.520 --> 0:33:42.880
<v Speaker 2>job to try to Like, you know, if you just

0:33:43.040 --> 0:33:45.280
<v Speaker 2>be yourself, you might be offensive to them, or you

0:33:45.360 --> 0:33:48.680
<v Speaker 2>might be intimidating to them. Like I know that I

0:33:48.720 --> 0:33:51.040
<v Speaker 2>can be intimidating. I don't want to be intimidating. I

0:33:51.080 --> 0:33:55.040
<v Speaker 2>don't try to be intimidating, but for a range of

0:33:55.080 --> 0:33:59.320
<v Speaker 2>reasons for some people, and I completely understand it. I

0:33:59.400 --> 0:34:01.840
<v Speaker 2>can be inning how other people will go, Oh, you're funny,

0:34:01.920 --> 0:34:04.560
<v Speaker 2>or you're inspiring, or you're clever, or you're an idiot

0:34:04.720 --> 0:34:08.759
<v Speaker 2>or whatever. Is it our job to try to work

0:34:08.800 --> 0:34:10.920
<v Speaker 2>around them or just be ourselves?

0:34:12.239 --> 0:34:15.839
<v Speaker 3>Are you talking from a neurotypical typical person specifically?

0:34:16.200 --> 0:34:20.880
<v Speaker 2>So for a neurotypical person who intersects, do we try

0:34:20.920 --> 0:34:23.239
<v Speaker 2>to I mean, I feel like if I'm trying to

0:34:23.280 --> 0:34:27.480
<v Speaker 2>accommodate them, maybe on being somewhat condescending or like I

0:34:27.560 --> 0:34:30.120
<v Speaker 2>just want to know, and I know there's no single

0:34:30.200 --> 0:34:30.800
<v Speaker 2>best thing.

0:34:31.280 --> 0:34:34.319
<v Speaker 1>But like what is how do we approach that?

0:34:35.440 --> 0:34:39.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? Look, there's this whole notion of the double empathy.

0:34:39.360 --> 0:34:41.200
<v Speaker 3>Have you heard about.

0:34:40.840 --> 0:34:43.200
<v Speaker 1>That quig enlighten me doc.

0:34:45.000 --> 0:34:47.480
<v Speaker 3>So this is kind of the viewpoint that it's not

0:34:47.560 --> 0:34:52.560
<v Speaker 3>like nero virgin people have deficits in the way they

0:34:52.640 --> 0:34:56.759
<v Speaker 3>communicate or the way they're socialize, but it's mostly that

0:34:57.000 --> 0:34:59.960
<v Speaker 3>their style of socializing and communicating is different.

0:35:01.400 --> 0:35:01.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:35:01.960 --> 0:35:07.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And so just like new redivergent people may feel

0:35:07.840 --> 0:35:12.080
<v Speaker 3>that the newer typical people communicate in a weed or

0:35:12.200 --> 0:35:18.000
<v Speaker 3>or could or you know uncomfortable way or way that

0:35:18.040 --> 0:35:21.840
<v Speaker 3>makes them feel uncomfortable. Likewise, neurotypical people may feel the

0:35:21.880 --> 0:35:26.080
<v Speaker 3>same when they communicate with someone who's new redivergent. And

0:35:26.320 --> 0:35:30.200
<v Speaker 3>I guess it's not so much about really changing the

0:35:30.239 --> 0:35:34.040
<v Speaker 3>way you communicate, but it's more about having that empathy

0:35:34.080 --> 0:35:37.640
<v Speaker 3>and that understanding that yes, look, this is how this

0:35:37.760 --> 0:35:40.960
<v Speaker 3>person interacts, this is what feels more comfortable for them.

0:35:41.560 --> 0:35:45.000
<v Speaker 3>And if you have that level of understanding and awareness,

0:35:45.040 --> 0:35:48.879
<v Speaker 3>I guess it would naturally help you adapt to that

0:35:50.000 --> 0:35:53.480
<v Speaker 3>way of communication in one way or another.

0:35:55.719 --> 0:35:57.920
<v Speaker 1>Could you thank you for that? Could you tell us

0:35:57.960 --> 0:35:59.680
<v Speaker 1>a bit about the work that you do.

0:36:00.160 --> 0:36:03.400
<v Speaker 2>You're a out thearies, but your day to day, your job, Like,

0:36:03.480 --> 0:36:07.799
<v Speaker 2>what is your job now, obviously you're a psych, Yeah,

0:36:07.840 --> 0:36:08.799
<v Speaker 2>what's your day to day?

0:36:09.400 --> 0:36:11.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Look, as a clinical psych I do a bit

0:36:11.560 --> 0:36:17.920
<v Speaker 3>of therapy, mostly with kids and adolescens, But apart from that,

0:36:18.040 --> 0:36:20.319
<v Speaker 3>I actually do quite a lot of assessments, a lot

0:36:20.360 --> 0:36:27.040
<v Speaker 3>of clinical assessments. So my real passion is helping people

0:36:28.000 --> 0:36:30.480
<v Speaker 3>learn more about who they are and why they do

0:36:30.600 --> 0:36:35.359
<v Speaker 3>certain things their way they do. I guess I'm very

0:36:35.400 --> 0:36:40.160
<v Speaker 3>analytical in the way I think, and I really enjoy

0:36:40.239 --> 0:36:44.960
<v Speaker 3>the process of learning more about the person's experience and

0:36:45.440 --> 0:36:48.719
<v Speaker 3>kind of integrating all the knowledge I gained from them

0:36:49.120 --> 0:36:53.120
<v Speaker 3>in order to make sense of the experience. So I

0:36:53.200 --> 0:36:53.520
<v Speaker 3>show you.

0:36:54.360 --> 0:36:55.799
<v Speaker 1>Oh sorry, sorry.

0:36:56.160 --> 0:37:00.360
<v Speaker 2>So people come to you for a diagnosis or for

0:37:00.440 --> 0:37:03.200
<v Speaker 2>at least to meet you and then a potential diagnosis,

0:37:03.239 --> 0:37:06.080
<v Speaker 2>or people get sent to you maybe they've seen someone

0:37:06.120 --> 0:37:09.879
<v Speaker 2>else another professional, and then they send them to you

0:37:09.920 --> 0:37:12.520
<v Speaker 2>to get a diagnosis. Is that correct?

0:37:12.800 --> 0:37:13.279
<v Speaker 3>That's right?

0:37:13.440 --> 0:37:15.759
<v Speaker 1>Yep? What are I feel like?

0:37:17.239 --> 0:37:20.200
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so let's say I come along and you go, Craig,

0:37:20.520 --> 0:37:24.240
<v Speaker 2>you're this and that. Then I go, all right, thanks

0:37:24.239 --> 0:37:27.799
<v Speaker 2>for those two labels or thanks for it, and then

0:37:27.840 --> 0:37:34.080
<v Speaker 2>I go see, yeah, like there is there a like

0:37:34.160 --> 0:37:36.320
<v Speaker 2>what do you think about all of this? What can improve?

0:37:36.640 --> 0:37:41.040
<v Speaker 2>Because no system is a perfect system, but is it?

0:37:41.120 --> 0:37:44.000
<v Speaker 2>Do you get frustrated with any part of that? As

0:37:44.040 --> 0:37:47.040
<v Speaker 2>like what is the average person that go, here's your diagnosis,

0:37:47.120 --> 0:37:49.640
<v Speaker 2>see you later, or now you've got to go see

0:37:49.640 --> 0:37:52.600
<v Speaker 2>these people will do that or follow these How does

0:37:52.600 --> 0:37:54.120
<v Speaker 2>it work post diagnosis?

0:37:54.840 --> 0:37:56.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? Look, I feel like this is a bit of

0:37:57.239 --> 0:38:01.920
<v Speaker 3>an area that's quite problematic at the moment. And thinking

0:38:01.960 --> 0:38:05.600
<v Speaker 3>about adults I work with often they leave the office

0:38:05.640 --> 0:38:10.600
<v Speaker 3>with the diagnosis, but really not having anything else in

0:38:10.719 --> 0:38:15.680
<v Speaker 3>place at that stage. So unfortunately I don't have capacity

0:38:15.719 --> 0:38:19.960
<v Speaker 3>to offer ongoing therapy myself. I may refer to them

0:38:19.960 --> 0:38:25.760
<v Speaker 3>to someone else, but usually there's a pretty long waiting

0:38:25.840 --> 0:38:29.240
<v Speaker 3>time before a person can go and start seeing psychologists.

0:38:30.080 --> 0:38:33.560
<v Speaker 3>Some people feel quite reluctant to start seeing someone from scratch.

0:38:33.640 --> 0:38:36.680
<v Speaker 3>They feel like, well, I've already gone through this experience.

0:38:36.760 --> 0:38:41.759
<v Speaker 3>Why do I have to start, you know, sharing everything,

0:38:42.239 --> 0:38:47.200
<v Speaker 3>or like sharing all of this from scratch. Some people

0:38:47.200 --> 0:38:49.360
<v Speaker 3>who lose the momentum. A lot of people kind of

0:38:49.360 --> 0:38:53.880
<v Speaker 3>feel really inspired by their new knowledge and they feel like, oh,

0:38:53.960 --> 0:38:57.520
<v Speaker 3>I want to really incorporate this into my life. I

0:38:57.560 --> 0:39:02.040
<v Speaker 3>want to review things and to reprocess all the things

0:39:02.160 --> 0:39:05.960
<v Speaker 3>I know and like all the things that have happened

0:39:05.960 --> 0:39:08.480
<v Speaker 3>to me and the way I do things. But that's

0:39:08.560 --> 0:39:11.719
<v Speaker 3>kind of a momentum that they have following the assessment,

0:39:13.080 --> 0:39:18.680
<v Speaker 3>and gradually these declines and I when I sometimes I

0:39:18.719 --> 0:39:23.600
<v Speaker 3>get a chance to catch up with those people I've diagnosed,

0:39:23.680 --> 0:39:28.040
<v Speaker 3>say in a year's time, and most of them still

0:39:28.239 --> 0:39:33.440
<v Speaker 3>haven't got any supports in place. Yeah, yeah, it's almost

0:39:33.560 --> 0:39:38.799
<v Speaker 3>like with time, they just feel well, all right, that's

0:39:39.360 --> 0:39:44.800
<v Speaker 3>now I know that I'm your divergent, but the actual

0:39:45.600 --> 0:39:53.600
<v Speaker 3>change hasn't really happened. And this is really sad. I

0:39:53.600 --> 0:39:56.760
<v Speaker 3>feel like it's an opportunity, or like a huge opportunity

0:39:56.800 --> 0:39:57.720
<v Speaker 3>that's been missed.

0:39:58.960 --> 0:40:02.360
<v Speaker 2>And I think, like with any other in inverted commas

0:40:02.560 --> 0:40:12.520
<v Speaker 2>condition or diagnosis, mental, emotional, physiological, it's not like one

0:40:12.640 --> 0:40:17.200
<v Speaker 2>pill fits every problem, you know, And like we know

0:40:17.320 --> 0:40:21.200
<v Speaker 2>it's pretty well known that statistically not everybody vibes or

0:40:21.280 --> 0:40:24.759
<v Speaker 2>gets a positive outcome with talk therapy. Yeah, like some

0:40:24.800 --> 0:40:27.440
<v Speaker 2>people it does not work for that's kind of we

0:40:27.560 --> 0:40:30.319
<v Speaker 2>know that a lot of people it's pretty good, and

0:40:30.480 --> 0:40:34.719
<v Speaker 2>some people it's amazing. You know, it's trying to figure out,

0:40:34.800 --> 0:40:38.480
<v Speaker 2>not only because I think one of the challenges is

0:40:38.520 --> 0:40:44.040
<v Speaker 2>that when it comes to any post diagnosis intervention, there's

0:40:44.080 --> 0:40:45.120
<v Speaker 2>still got to be nuanced.

0:40:45.120 --> 0:40:48.120
<v Speaker 1>There's still got to be individual kind.

0:40:47.920 --> 0:40:50.799
<v Speaker 2>Of awareness and care for the person, because what will

0:40:50.840 --> 0:40:53.880
<v Speaker 2>work for patient A will not for patient B or

0:40:53.920 --> 0:40:57.960
<v Speaker 2>C necessarily. So it's just like you and I, or

0:40:58.000 --> 0:41:00.719
<v Speaker 2>we might get another lady who's your age, you know,

0:41:00.920 --> 0:41:04.360
<v Speaker 2>very similar to you in terms of physical appearance and

0:41:04.400 --> 0:41:06.520
<v Speaker 2>shape and size and all that stuff, and we feed

0:41:06.600 --> 0:41:08.880
<v Speaker 2>her a particular diet and your particular diet. We get

0:41:08.880 --> 0:41:11.839
<v Speaker 2>two very different outcomes because you're not the same people

0:41:11.880 --> 0:41:15.280
<v Speaker 2>with the same genetics, And therefore, where would be silly

0:41:15.320 --> 0:41:17.799
<v Speaker 2>to expect the same outcome just because we've got the

0:41:17.840 --> 0:41:21.960
<v Speaker 2>same uh you know, intervention, And so too with other

0:41:22.040 --> 0:41:25.319
<v Speaker 2>It's like, oh, here's people with ten different illnesses. Let's

0:41:25.320 --> 0:41:28.920
<v Speaker 2>give them all this one medication because they are all sick,

0:41:29.000 --> 0:41:32.000
<v Speaker 2>and here is medicine. And when you're sick, you need medicine.

0:41:32.200 --> 0:41:35.960
<v Speaker 2>That obviously a silly concept. And then the thing is

0:41:36.000 --> 0:41:41.399
<v Speaker 2>with you assessing people cognitively and emotionally and mentally. It's like, well,

0:41:41.400 --> 0:41:44.680
<v Speaker 2>of course everybody needs not everybody needs something different, but

0:41:44.719 --> 0:41:48.360
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people what will work will be something

0:41:48.480 --> 0:41:50.759
<v Speaker 2>quite maybe out of the box. Like one of my

0:41:50.840 --> 0:41:54.719
<v Speaker 2>friends went to talk therapy for a year, toughted out

0:41:55.400 --> 0:41:57.160
<v Speaker 2>by the way, I've got lots of friends you go

0:41:57.200 --> 0:41:59.920
<v Speaker 2>to therapy and love it everyone, so I'm not canning therapy.

0:42:00.520 --> 0:42:03.360
<v Speaker 2>But for him it just didn't work. And then it

0:42:03.520 --> 0:42:05.680
<v Speaker 2>never surfed in his life, and he went away with

0:42:05.760 --> 0:42:08.080
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of mates who dragged him on a surfing

0:42:08.120 --> 0:42:10.880
<v Speaker 2>weekend and it was like it opened some door of

0:42:11.040 --> 0:42:11.839
<v Speaker 2>joy in his.

0:42:11.840 --> 0:42:14.240
<v Speaker 1>Brain and he now.

0:42:15.600 --> 0:42:19.320
<v Speaker 2>So much so that he surfs. He lives works in Melbourne.

0:42:19.680 --> 0:42:24.000
<v Speaker 2>He drives somewhere twice a week to surf, and sometimes

0:42:24.040 --> 0:42:26.239
<v Speaker 2>it's at five o'clock at night and he's on the

0:42:26.280 --> 0:42:30.239
<v Speaker 2>waves until eight or whatever. And like I've seen him,

0:42:30.239 --> 0:42:32.920
<v Speaker 2>I've spoken with him. He's like, this has changed my life.

0:42:33.360 --> 0:42:37.400
<v Speaker 2>And it's for him the you know, if not the answer,

0:42:37.480 --> 0:42:39.520
<v Speaker 2>A big part of the answer for him was nature

0:42:39.719 --> 0:42:42.960
<v Speaker 2>was waves. Was was just the ebb and flow of

0:42:43.000 --> 0:42:45.920
<v Speaker 2>the water and the tide and the I don't know,

0:42:46.120 --> 0:42:48.279
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I don't understand what happened in his

0:42:48.320 --> 0:42:51.759
<v Speaker 2>brain or his mind. But he was like a he's

0:42:51.840 --> 0:42:55.000
<v Speaker 2>just a transformed person. He's less anxious, he's less of

0:42:55.040 --> 0:42:58.640
<v Speaker 2>an overthinker, he's more calm. It's like he cannot wait

0:42:58.719 --> 0:43:01.880
<v Speaker 2>to get there. That's like he's medicine. But nobody's going

0:43:01.960 --> 0:43:03.000
<v Speaker 2>to prescribe surfing.

0:43:03.560 --> 0:43:04.359
<v Speaker 1>You know what I mean.

0:43:05.640 --> 0:43:08.080
<v Speaker 2>Okay, you're anxious, right, you need to go to Phillip

0:43:08.080 --> 0:43:09.040
<v Speaker 2>Island and surf.

0:43:09.400 --> 0:43:12.840
<v Speaker 3>You know, there's actually quite a lot of evidence showing

0:43:12.880 --> 0:43:17.480
<v Speaker 3>that people with their digity thrive in nature. So having

0:43:17.560 --> 0:43:22.880
<v Speaker 3>the kind of open green space it's really really helpful

0:43:22.880 --> 0:43:28.000
<v Speaker 3>for the idgy brain. So really thinking beyond just the therapy,

0:43:28.040 --> 0:43:33.080
<v Speaker 3>I think is very important. And I've been seeing people

0:43:33.160 --> 0:43:36.960
<v Speaker 3>who found things like music therapy very helpful. For example,

0:43:38.400 --> 0:43:42.440
<v Speaker 3>especially people who may not be so good, like you know,

0:43:42.600 --> 0:43:47.920
<v Speaker 3>just verbal communication, they find that being able to express

0:43:47.960 --> 0:43:52.600
<v Speaker 3>themselves through art or music is like very helpful. And

0:43:52.680 --> 0:43:55.960
<v Speaker 3>their official sport is another thing. Just like you say, like,

0:43:56.960 --> 0:44:01.200
<v Speaker 3>that's really really essential. So usually that's something I would

0:44:01.280 --> 0:44:05.880
<v Speaker 3>recommend to every person I diagnose with ADHD. Doing something

0:44:05.960 --> 0:44:10.440
<v Speaker 3>that's active. It does make a huge difference in the

0:44:10.520 --> 0:44:17.920
<v Speaker 3>way the person feels, the way their brain works. You're right,

0:44:18.960 --> 0:44:22.799
<v Speaker 3>there are lots of different approaches the person kind of

0:44:23.040 --> 0:44:26.279
<v Speaker 3>needs to consider when thinking about, well, how can I

0:44:26.360 --> 0:44:32.359
<v Speaker 3>make my life? I think the word better is a

0:44:32.400 --> 0:44:36.600
<v Speaker 3>good way to use, but more satisfying.

0:44:38.480 --> 0:44:40.720
<v Speaker 1>Have you ever heard of sorry listeners?

0:44:40.719 --> 0:44:43.480
<v Speaker 2>When I'm in the middle of something, Anna, doctor Anna,

0:44:44.040 --> 0:44:47.239
<v Speaker 2>I go down a rabbit hole for a week or

0:44:47.280 --> 0:44:49.680
<v Speaker 2>two or three. I'm like, I'm all about this, and

0:44:49.719 --> 0:44:51.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm reading that, and I'm listening to that, and I'm

0:44:51.600 --> 0:44:54.840
<v Speaker 2>studying that, or I had a revelation and sadly.

0:44:54.480 --> 0:44:56.560
<v Speaker 1>From my audience they've got to go on. They don't

0:44:56.560 --> 0:44:58.840
<v Speaker 1>have to. If they keep listening, they're going to go

0:44:58.840 --> 0:45:01.320
<v Speaker 1>on a bit of a two or three week journey

0:45:01.320 --> 0:45:05.000
<v Speaker 1>with me into this thing. Right. So have you heard of.

0:45:05.000 --> 0:45:07.839
<v Speaker 2>An author called, I'm sure you have, Eckhart Toll, kind

0:45:07.880 --> 0:45:12.279
<v Speaker 2>of the spiritual teacher. Okay, okay, So he's a very

0:45:12.280 --> 0:45:15.120
<v Speaker 2>famous spiritual teacher. He wrote a book called The Power

0:45:15.120 --> 0:45:15.640
<v Speaker 2>of Now.

0:45:16.320 --> 0:45:16.960
<v Speaker 1>He's written a.

0:45:16.920 --> 0:45:21.680
<v Speaker 2>Bunch a New Earth and his anyway, he went on

0:45:21.719 --> 0:45:26.000
<v Speaker 2>his own journey now, like like you, I'm kind of

0:45:27.400 --> 0:45:29.640
<v Speaker 2>like I used to be quite religious, because that's what

0:45:29.680 --> 0:45:31.719
<v Speaker 2>I grew up in. You know, I was trained and

0:45:31.760 --> 0:45:35.600
<v Speaker 2>told and taught and programmed and manipulated to go, this

0:45:35.640 --> 0:45:37.919
<v Speaker 2>is how life works. This is there's God, there's heaven,

0:45:37.960 --> 0:45:40.560
<v Speaker 2>there's Hell, there's judgment, there's an eternal lake of fire,

0:45:40.640 --> 0:45:41.759
<v Speaker 2>there's and.

0:45:41.680 --> 0:45:43.440
<v Speaker 1>This is how it works, not like this is how

0:45:43.480 --> 0:45:43.920
<v Speaker 1>it might be.

0:45:44.080 --> 0:45:46.799
<v Speaker 2>No. So I wasn't taught how to think. I was

0:45:46.840 --> 0:45:51.160
<v Speaker 2>taught what to think, right, So all that stuff. But

0:45:51.280 --> 0:45:54.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to so can I read you something and

0:45:54.160 --> 0:45:57.560
<v Speaker 2>tell me if this is completely weird? But this is

0:45:57.719 --> 0:46:01.239
<v Speaker 2>like almost my summary so called The Power of Now.

0:46:02.080 --> 0:46:05.400
<v Speaker 2>I've read it twice physically, and now I'm listening to it.

0:46:05.440 --> 0:46:07.319
<v Speaker 2>But I haven't listened to it for like twenty years,

0:46:07.320 --> 0:46:10.759
<v Speaker 2>and it keeps blowing my mind. And the first time

0:46:10.760 --> 0:46:13.399
<v Speaker 2>I read it, actually I didn't finish it. I thought,

0:46:13.400 --> 0:46:20.000
<v Speaker 2>this is complete psychobabble, pseudo spiritual garbage. And then I

0:46:20.040 --> 0:46:22.160
<v Speaker 2>read it about five years later and went, oh, this

0:46:22.200 --> 0:46:25.640
<v Speaker 2>is brilliant, This is brilliant. How smart is he?

0:46:25.760 --> 0:46:26.000
<v Speaker 1>Right?

0:46:26.560 --> 0:46:28.360
<v Speaker 2>Obviously the book was the same and I was a

0:46:28.400 --> 0:46:32.400
<v Speaker 2>bit different. Right, So I wrote this thing this morning.

0:46:33.200 --> 0:46:34.719
<v Speaker 2>I want your thoughts on this. This is a little

0:46:34.760 --> 0:46:38.240
<v Speaker 2>bit of a summary, like about a forty words summary

0:46:38.320 --> 0:46:42.640
<v Speaker 2>of where I'm at in the book Identity with Mind.

0:46:42.840 --> 0:46:44.760
<v Speaker 2>You have a mind, but you are not a mind.

0:46:45.040 --> 0:46:47.520
<v Speaker 2>You have thoughts, but you are not a thought. You

0:46:47.600 --> 0:46:50.600
<v Speaker 2>tell stories, but you are not a story. Your mind

0:46:50.640 --> 0:46:53.160
<v Speaker 2>will get hijacked by fear, but you are not fear.

0:46:53.760 --> 0:46:56.239
<v Speaker 2>It will replay the past and imagine the future, but

0:46:56.320 --> 0:46:59.120
<v Speaker 2>you live in neither. It will convince you that you're

0:46:59.160 --> 0:47:03.720
<v Speaker 2>not enough too much. Both are stories, Neither are you.

0:47:03.719 --> 0:47:07.680
<v Speaker 2>Your mind is a tool, a powerful, messy, creative, unreliable tool,

0:47:07.920 --> 0:47:10.440
<v Speaker 2>but it is not your identity. You are the observer,

0:47:10.640 --> 0:47:14.680
<v Speaker 2>the awareness the one who notices I like to think

0:47:14.719 --> 0:47:17.920
<v Speaker 2>about the mind and me as separate entities.

0:47:18.160 --> 0:47:19.520
<v Speaker 1>What do you think about that?

0:47:20.080 --> 0:47:23.480
<v Speaker 3>It's interesting what you've just read. It's very much aligned

0:47:23.480 --> 0:47:28.120
<v Speaker 3>with the kind of act acceptance and commitment therapy approach.

0:47:28.680 --> 0:47:30.080
<v Speaker 3>I'm not sure if you're familiar with this.

0:47:30.160 --> 0:47:31.880
<v Speaker 1>Apro act actor.

0:47:32.280 --> 0:47:36.000
<v Speaker 3>Yes, exactly so. Kind of being detached, taking that detached

0:47:36.040 --> 0:47:42.040
<v Speaker 3>stance from your thoughts, your feelings, and that really does

0:47:42.440 --> 0:47:46.719
<v Speaker 3>help to observe what's happening for you, to observe your experience,

0:47:46.719 --> 0:47:51.319
<v Speaker 3>to observe the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves from

0:47:51.360 --> 0:47:55.960
<v Speaker 3>that more almost objective perspective. And I think that's an

0:47:56.000 --> 0:47:58.719
<v Speaker 3>amazing skill to have, an amazing thing to remember and

0:47:58.840 --> 0:48:02.040
<v Speaker 3>actually does some And I teach to both kids and adults,

0:48:02.560 --> 0:48:05.480
<v Speaker 3>especially those who are pouring to things like anxiety. I

0:48:05.480 --> 0:48:07.759
<v Speaker 3>think that's something very helpful.

0:48:09.560 --> 0:48:11.279
<v Speaker 1>Now you've done very well. We're going to let you

0:48:11.320 --> 0:48:12.080
<v Speaker 1>go very soon.

0:48:12.880 --> 0:48:15.280
<v Speaker 2>I said too, I said to doctor Anna, before we start,

0:48:15.320 --> 0:48:17.440
<v Speaker 2>how long have you you got?

0:48:17.600 --> 0:48:18.920
<v Speaker 1>I don't want it to be too long.

0:48:19.239 --> 0:48:22.960
<v Speaker 3>I don't blame you experience.

0:48:24.640 --> 0:48:25.520
<v Speaker 1>Are you going? Okay?

0:48:25.680 --> 0:48:26.839
<v Speaker 3>Need to go along with the flow?

0:48:28.880 --> 0:48:29.280
<v Speaker 1>Okay?

0:48:29.360 --> 0:48:34.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, one thing I if I try to think, uh,

0:48:34.600 --> 0:48:36.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, I try to have that theory of mind

0:48:36.320 --> 0:48:38.960
<v Speaker 2>thing going on, even with a podcast, even talking to

0:48:39.000 --> 0:48:41.520
<v Speaker 2>people who are not listening right now but will be

0:48:41.560 --> 0:48:43.560
<v Speaker 2>in the future. I try and make it right now

0:48:43.600 --> 0:48:46.319
<v Speaker 2>for me for them, And I try and think if

0:48:46.360 --> 0:48:48.279
<v Speaker 2>I was listening to this, what would I want to know?

0:48:48.320 --> 0:48:51.520
<v Speaker 2>And there's this left of center question I want to

0:48:51.560 --> 0:48:54.439
<v Speaker 2>ask you, and that is where are you from? I think,

0:48:54.480 --> 0:48:56.759
<v Speaker 2>like we can all hear your beautiful accent. People want

0:48:56.800 --> 0:49:01.080
<v Speaker 2>to go, where did she grow up? Where are you from? Yeah,

0:49:01.080 --> 0:49:02.000
<v Speaker 2>what's the answer to that?

0:49:02.320 --> 0:49:05.479
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, my family comes from Russia. I came here when

0:49:05.480 --> 0:49:06.280
<v Speaker 3>I was ten.

0:49:07.560 --> 0:49:07.880
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

0:49:09.120 --> 0:49:17.520
<v Speaker 3>Yes, I still do have the accent. And I yes,

0:49:17.680 --> 0:49:20.880
<v Speaker 3>we speak Russian at home. My husband's also from a

0:49:20.920 --> 0:49:25.520
<v Speaker 3>Russian background, So that's very hard for you to get

0:49:25.600 --> 0:49:26.440
<v Speaker 3>rid of the accent.

0:49:26.760 --> 0:49:30.200
<v Speaker 1>But well, here's the thing.

0:49:30.200 --> 0:49:33.120
<v Speaker 2>Your English is perfect, but you have this beautiful accent

0:49:33.120 --> 0:49:33.920
<v Speaker 2>over the top of it.

0:49:35.840 --> 0:49:38.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, did it? I don't know, is it?

0:49:39.560 --> 0:49:41.560
<v Speaker 2>Do you remember when you got here how long it

0:49:41.640 --> 0:49:44.839
<v Speaker 2>took you to kind of adapt to the culture, And

0:49:45.040 --> 0:49:48.839
<v Speaker 2>because the cadence of the way that Australians speak and

0:49:49.280 --> 0:49:52.439
<v Speaker 2>the way that we kind of bend words and syllables

0:49:52.560 --> 0:49:56.960
<v Speaker 2>and letters. It's not it's like I mean, but us

0:49:56.960 --> 0:49:59.799
<v Speaker 2>Ausies we go, well, of course we speak English. But

0:49:59.840 --> 0:50:03.000
<v Speaker 2>for any any other English speaking countries that come over

0:50:03.040 --> 0:50:06.440
<v Speaker 2>here and they're like, it's kind of English.

0:50:07.360 --> 0:50:10.040
<v Speaker 3>It's a really interesting question. The thing is, I feel

0:50:10.080 --> 0:50:15.680
<v Speaker 3>like being an immigrant actually is something that got in

0:50:15.719 --> 0:50:19.840
<v Speaker 3>the way for me recognizing my new euro divergence earlier,

0:50:19.920 --> 0:50:24.480
<v Speaker 3>because I have never fully adapted to the Australian culture

0:50:25.520 --> 0:50:27.880
<v Speaker 3>and I was thinking, well, that's just because of my

0:50:28.320 --> 0:50:33.879
<v Speaker 3>you know, because of my Russian background, yes, But then

0:50:33.920 --> 0:50:36.360
<v Speaker 3>I realized, well, actually no, there's more to it.

0:50:37.400 --> 0:50:39.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so what do you think now? Like what you

0:50:39.680 --> 0:50:40.280
<v Speaker 1>take now?

0:50:41.000 --> 0:50:43.800
<v Speaker 3>So now I feel that it's not about the culture.

0:50:43.800 --> 0:50:46.680
<v Speaker 3>It's not about the Russian or the Australian Culture's just

0:50:46.719 --> 0:50:52.239
<v Speaker 3>about the way my brain works at certain kind of interactions,

0:50:52.280 --> 0:50:56.359
<v Speaker 3>somewhat challenging for me and more effortful for me. And

0:50:56.440 --> 0:50:59.759
<v Speaker 3>it's not to do with language. Your culture is just

0:50:59.800 --> 0:51:03.640
<v Speaker 3>to do with kind of my less typical brain.

0:51:06.000 --> 0:51:09.680
<v Speaker 2>Do you know what I think? Like, I know when

0:51:09.760 --> 0:51:15.840
<v Speaker 2>I turn up to do stuff and it's weird because

0:51:16.680 --> 0:51:19.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't like, I really don't like people putting me

0:51:19.960 --> 0:51:23.720
<v Speaker 2>on a pedestal or thinking that I'm smarter than anyone

0:51:23.760 --> 0:51:26.680
<v Speaker 2>in the room. I might have some knowledge that you don't,

0:51:27.239 --> 0:51:30.200
<v Speaker 2>but knowledge doesn't necessarily equal intelligence.

0:51:30.280 --> 0:51:32.640
<v Speaker 1>By the way, there are lots of knowledgeable.

0:51:32.080 --> 0:51:34.880
<v Speaker 2>People who are I was going to swear, but I

0:51:34.920 --> 0:51:38.160
<v Speaker 2>won't because you're so polite, who are not that smart.

0:51:38.160 --> 0:51:40.600
<v Speaker 2>And there are lots of really smart people who had

0:51:40.600 --> 0:51:46.600
<v Speaker 2>a very limited or intelligent people who have very limited education. Traditionally,

0:51:46.640 --> 0:51:50.799
<v Speaker 2>But when I when I talk to audiences and even

0:51:50.840 --> 0:51:53.080
<v Speaker 2>on this show, I try to be not in a

0:51:53.120 --> 0:51:57.000
<v Speaker 2>disingenuous way, but as open and real about my own

0:51:57.040 --> 0:52:02.520
<v Speaker 2>bullshit and my own insecurities and my own gaps you know, and.

0:52:02.640 --> 0:52:03.640
<v Speaker 1>Talk to people about.

0:52:03.680 --> 0:52:06.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, of course I'm still insecure, and of course I

0:52:06.080 --> 0:52:08.759
<v Speaker 2>still want your approval, and it's not as bad as

0:52:08.800 --> 0:52:12.120
<v Speaker 2>it once was, and of course I'm periodically an overthinker,

0:52:12.680 --> 0:52:15.560
<v Speaker 2>and of course all of these things. But if I

0:52:15.680 --> 0:52:18.480
<v Speaker 2>wait till I get all of my metaphoric shit together

0:52:18.880 --> 0:52:22.399
<v Speaker 2>before I help people, I'm never going to help anyone

0:52:22.640 --> 0:52:26.120
<v Speaker 2>because I'm always a work in progress. I'm never there.

0:52:26.760 --> 0:52:28.960
<v Speaker 2>I might improve or learn or grow or evolve and

0:52:29.000 --> 0:52:33.080
<v Speaker 2>get better, but I still do dumb things. I still

0:52:33.120 --> 0:52:36.400
<v Speaker 2>get things wrong. I still make bad decisions, I still

0:52:37.560 --> 0:52:41.080
<v Speaker 2>take actions that don't work. I still fail, depending on

0:52:41.160 --> 0:52:45.080
<v Speaker 2>how we frame failure. But I think the fact that

0:52:45.120 --> 0:52:49.439
<v Speaker 2>you go by the way I'm neurodivergent, I think that's

0:52:49.680 --> 0:52:52.000
<v Speaker 2>a I think that's an asset.

0:52:52.080 --> 0:52:54.959
<v Speaker 1>I think that gives you. Yes, I'm a doctor of this.

0:52:54.920 --> 0:52:57.400
<v Speaker 2>And that, and yes, I know how to diagnose and

0:52:57.520 --> 0:53:00.320
<v Speaker 2>treat people and work with people. But also by the way,

0:53:01.239 --> 0:53:04.680
<v Speaker 2>I actually think that adds a real layer of credibility

0:53:05.200 --> 0:53:07.680
<v Speaker 2>to people. And I would rather work with you than

0:53:07.800 --> 0:53:10.520
<v Speaker 2>someone with all the other stuff the same, but without that,

0:53:10.760 --> 0:53:13.000
<v Speaker 2>because I know you're going to get me because you're

0:53:13.000 --> 0:53:14.839
<v Speaker 2>a bit like me, you know what I mean.

0:53:16.160 --> 0:53:18.840
<v Speaker 3>Yes, and I really hope that this is how people

0:53:18.880 --> 0:53:21.560
<v Speaker 3>will kind of feel when they come to see me,

0:53:21.880 --> 0:53:29.319
<v Speaker 3>being feeling that they have this opportunity to really be

0:53:29.480 --> 0:53:35.239
<v Speaker 3>genuine with me and be understood because I share that experience.

0:53:38.000 --> 0:53:40.799
<v Speaker 3>And yes, it did take a bit of courage kind

0:53:40.800 --> 0:53:44.680
<v Speaker 3>of coming to this decision of speaking openly about this.

0:53:44.800 --> 0:53:47.560
<v Speaker 3>As I said, I have been kind of contemplating with

0:53:47.680 --> 0:53:51.640
<v Speaker 3>I should publicly if enough. It does make me feel

0:53:51.640 --> 0:53:56.040
<v Speaker 3>more vulnerable in a way. But on the other hand,

0:53:56.080 --> 0:53:58.680
<v Speaker 3>I do feel like that's definitely the right decision to make,

0:54:00.280 --> 0:54:02.719
<v Speaker 3>and it's just all about being genuine with myself and

0:54:02.760 --> 0:54:07.480
<v Speaker 3>with the people I work with. Really, I almost felt

0:54:07.520 --> 0:54:12.319
<v Speaker 3>like I was deceiving them, deceiving the people I work

0:54:12.400 --> 0:54:17.440
<v Speaker 3>with by not opening up in terms of how I feel. Yeah,

0:54:18.080 --> 0:54:23.600
<v Speaker 3>that my personal neurodivergence, although it previously hasn't been formalized

0:54:23.640 --> 0:54:26.160
<v Speaker 3>in the way is now, but still I kind of

0:54:26.239 --> 0:54:28.600
<v Speaker 3>had that, Yeah, that.

0:54:30.200 --> 0:54:33.359
<v Speaker 2>In a kind of understanding or knowing, Well, unless you're

0:54:33.360 --> 0:54:35.720
<v Speaker 2>going to announce it on Channel nine News, it doesn't

0:54:35.719 --> 0:54:39.520
<v Speaker 2>get much more public than this podcast. It's like that,

0:54:39.640 --> 0:54:45.160
<v Speaker 2>it's definitely public now, So well done you. I have one,

0:54:45.239 --> 0:54:47.680
<v Speaker 2>I think one last question. Who knows it could be too,

0:54:47.719 --> 0:54:52.279
<v Speaker 2>But my last question for now is I feel like

0:54:52.320 --> 0:54:54.120
<v Speaker 2>this is a bit of a cheesy question, but I

0:54:54.120 --> 0:54:57.919
<v Speaker 2>want to know the answer anyway. What do people get

0:54:57.960 --> 0:55:02.319
<v Speaker 2>wrong or misunderstand and about neurodivergence?

0:55:04.760 --> 0:55:08.440
<v Speaker 3>Lots of things. There's so much stigma unfortunately still existing

0:55:08.520 --> 0:55:12.680
<v Speaker 3>about neurodivergence that even when I told my best friend

0:55:12.680 --> 0:55:17.360
<v Speaker 3>who has known me since she was nine, that neurodiversions,

0:55:17.440 --> 0:55:20.200
<v Speaker 3>she went, well, you don't look in your o divergent.

0:55:21.440 --> 0:55:23.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's what I thought that too.

0:55:24.000 --> 0:55:27.879
<v Speaker 3>The whole notional masking, I think lots of like even

0:55:27.960 --> 0:55:31.480
<v Speaker 3>thinking about the Doosem criteria, So the criteria we use

0:55:31.760 --> 0:55:37.040
<v Speaker 3>for diagnosers, it's all about the visible symptoms, it's all

0:55:37.080 --> 0:55:41.279
<v Speaker 3>about the visible behaviors. But there are people who are

0:55:41.280 --> 0:55:47.279
<v Speaker 3>so good at masking and camouflaging their challenges that they experience,

0:55:48.040 --> 0:55:52.080
<v Speaker 3>so they can perform really well, they can be very sizeable,

0:55:52.200 --> 0:55:57.120
<v Speaker 3>they can communicate really really well, but it's a huge effort,

0:55:58.400 --> 0:56:02.200
<v Speaker 3>and that's where the whole kind of autistic burnout comes

0:56:02.239 --> 0:56:07.719
<v Speaker 3>into play, where the person may kind of be like

0:56:08.280 --> 0:56:14.080
<v Speaker 3>functional a pizza, function really well and may perform really

0:56:14.080 --> 0:56:19.440
<v Speaker 3>well in all sorts of situations, but then they experience

0:56:19.560 --> 0:56:24.839
<v Speaker 3>this period of extreme exhaustion, extreme loss of capacity, which

0:56:24.920 --> 0:56:28.640
<v Speaker 3>may go on for days or even weeks or months

0:56:28.640 --> 0:56:32.560
<v Speaker 3>for some. And so these kind of over lines on

0:56:32.640 --> 0:56:39.920
<v Speaker 3>the observable features is I think that's something that a

0:56:39.960 --> 0:56:45.080
<v Speaker 3>lot of people kind of do when they think about someone,

0:56:45.239 --> 0:56:50.000
<v Speaker 3>whether someone is neurodivergent or not. And that's yeah, I

0:56:50.000 --> 0:56:52.520
<v Speaker 3>think that's a big issue.

0:56:53.280 --> 0:56:55.680
<v Speaker 1>I wonder if I wonder if I'm on the spectrum,

0:56:55.680 --> 0:56:58.960
<v Speaker 1>I wonder if you don't like I mean, I don't.

0:56:59.000 --> 0:57:04.319
<v Speaker 2>I really don't know, but like people think I'm an

0:57:04.360 --> 0:57:08.360
<v Speaker 2>extrovert because I do this right. But the funny thing is,

0:57:09.040 --> 0:57:11.600
<v Speaker 2>and I mean it's not like I'm a shy little wallflower,

0:57:12.200 --> 0:57:14.600
<v Speaker 2>but I really like being by myself. Like I live

0:57:14.680 --> 0:57:18.280
<v Speaker 2>by myself. I've lived by myself since I left school.

0:57:18.560 --> 0:57:20.800
<v Speaker 2>So I get up by myself, go to bed by myself.

0:57:21.640 --> 0:57:24.440
<v Speaker 2>You know, I haven't seen anyone today. It's one o eight.

0:57:25.040 --> 0:57:28.760
<v Speaker 2>I saw a few people at the cafe, but yeah,

0:57:28.800 --> 0:57:33.720
<v Speaker 2>and I feel like I get people overload. If it's

0:57:33.880 --> 0:57:37.000
<v Speaker 2>just that this is maybe you can help me, Like

0:57:37.080 --> 0:57:39.919
<v Speaker 2>if I'm doing something meaningful like work, Like I'm doing

0:57:39.960 --> 0:57:43.160
<v Speaker 2>an all day presentational workshop and I'm in the zone

0:57:43.200 --> 0:57:45.760
<v Speaker 2>and I'm focused and i'm speaking and I'm answering questions

0:57:45.760 --> 0:57:48.480
<v Speaker 2>and I'm working with people and I'm kind of taking

0:57:48.520 --> 0:57:49.080
<v Speaker 2>us all on a.

0:57:49.160 --> 0:57:50.880
<v Speaker 1>Ride for the day. Blah blah blah.

0:57:50.920 --> 0:57:52.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm in it, but then I get home, I'm like,

0:57:53.000 --> 0:57:55.760
<v Speaker 2>I feel like I've just run nine marathons. But when

0:57:55.760 --> 0:57:58.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm in it, I'm fine. But when I'm out, like

0:57:58.720 --> 0:58:00.960
<v Speaker 2>at a dinner, which I don't and it's not that

0:58:01.080 --> 0:58:04.480
<v Speaker 2>dinner's bad or people that you know, but me sitting

0:58:04.480 --> 0:58:07.600
<v Speaker 2>down with people for four hours are starting at six

0:58:07.600 --> 0:58:11.280
<v Speaker 2>point thirty and leaving the restaurant at ten thirty. I

0:58:11.320 --> 0:58:14.760
<v Speaker 2>cannot tell you how much I hate it. Like I

0:58:15.040 --> 0:58:20.160
<v Speaker 2>just I get physically exhausted. Firstly, I don't drink, so

0:58:20.480 --> 0:58:23.680
<v Speaker 2>but everybody else normally drinks, so by an hour into

0:58:23.760 --> 0:58:28.400
<v Speaker 2>the conversation, the conversations are stupid. I also only eat

0:58:28.480 --> 0:58:30.960
<v Speaker 2>one meal, so everyone else will have, you know what,

0:58:31.120 --> 0:58:33.600
<v Speaker 2>three or four different courses. And all of this is good,

0:58:33.600 --> 0:58:36.520
<v Speaker 2>by the way. I'm not criticizing them. In fact, I

0:58:36.520 --> 0:58:38.640
<v Speaker 2>wish sometimes I was more like that, and I could

0:58:38.640 --> 0:58:40.360
<v Speaker 2>go there and have as much fun as they have.

0:58:41.000 --> 0:58:44.040
<v Speaker 2>I just don't, And so by eight o'clock I'm like,

0:58:44.240 --> 0:58:47.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm looking for a way out, and it's you know,

0:58:47.720 --> 0:58:52.200
<v Speaker 2>it's often I do not like meaning Oh I was

0:58:52.200 --> 0:58:55.480
<v Speaker 2>going to say, meaningless conversations. So I have fun bullshit

0:58:55.560 --> 0:58:58.680
<v Speaker 2>conversations with my mates where we're just talking garbage, but

0:58:58.720 --> 0:59:02.320
<v Speaker 2>that's somewhat therapeutic and funny. And then I like having

0:59:02.360 --> 0:59:06.720
<v Speaker 2>meaningful conversations like this, but just where there's just this

0:59:07.880 --> 0:59:13.920
<v Speaker 2>superficial it's almost it's almost like this performative crap where

0:59:13.960 --> 0:59:16.120
<v Speaker 2>you're talking for twenty minutes about nothing.

0:59:16.160 --> 0:59:18.400
<v Speaker 1>Really, I'm like, I cannot wait to get out of it.

0:59:19.280 --> 0:59:21.520
<v Speaker 2>So I don't know, but yeah, I don't enjoy the

0:59:21.560 --> 0:59:23.080
<v Speaker 2>stuff that a lot of people enjoy.

0:59:23.200 --> 0:59:24.040
<v Speaker 1>I don't at all.

0:59:24.520 --> 0:59:27.840
<v Speaker 3>And that's exactly how I experience things. I'm not making

0:59:27.880 --> 0:59:31.760
<v Speaker 3>any connection thoughts over, but that's exactly how I experienced this.

0:59:32.080 --> 0:59:39.000
<v Speaker 3>I really enjoy socializing, I love meaningful conversations, I love

0:59:39.120 --> 0:59:42.600
<v Speaker 3>dip diving into different topics. I love partying in fact,

0:59:42.680 --> 0:59:50.960
<v Speaker 3>but I get so drained afterwards. Yes, and sometimes like

0:59:51.080 --> 0:59:54.880
<v Speaker 3>I may have host a party and really enjoy the

0:59:54.920 --> 0:59:57.720
<v Speaker 3>party in the moment, but then we'll take me a

0:59:57.720 --> 1:00:01.520
<v Speaker 3>few days to get out out of that burnout state.

1:00:03.280 --> 1:00:05.280
<v Speaker 3>And initially I was thinking, what's wrong with me? I

1:00:05.320 --> 1:00:07.760
<v Speaker 3>was thinking, maybe it's my age, maybe it's me being

1:00:08.400 --> 1:00:13.040
<v Speaker 3>you know, close to that perimenopausal stage, and all of

1:00:13.040 --> 1:00:19.720
<v Speaker 3>those things can actually exaggerate the ADHD symptoms in the

1:00:19.720 --> 1:00:23.720
<v Speaker 3>female in particular. But I've realized there's more to it.

1:00:23.920 --> 1:00:27.680
<v Speaker 3>I realized that it is like that loss of capacity

1:00:28.440 --> 1:00:34.120
<v Speaker 3>where even just speaking becomes effortful, moving becomes effortful. So

1:00:34.400 --> 1:00:38.800
<v Speaker 3>it's really like, I mean, we know that neurotypical people

1:00:38.880 --> 1:00:43.880
<v Speaker 3>also experience burnout, but for a neurotypical person it's kind

1:00:43.880 --> 1:00:52.640
<v Speaker 3>of usually linked to that the stress and the fatigue

1:00:52.680 --> 1:00:56.120
<v Speaker 3>that they experience, so it's almost like the phone that's

1:00:56.200 --> 1:00:59.080
<v Speaker 3>running out of battery, and once they get the rest

1:00:59.320 --> 1:01:02.720
<v Speaker 3>they need, they're usually back to the more or less

1:01:02.760 --> 1:01:09.480
<v Speaker 3>normal state, whereas the autistic burnout it's linked to that

1:01:09.720 --> 1:01:18.840
<v Speaker 3>conic conic misalignment with the environmental demands, so kind of

1:01:20.400 --> 1:01:26.600
<v Speaker 3>demand additional demand, and that leads to those states where

1:01:26.600 --> 1:01:30.040
<v Speaker 3>the person just really loses capacity to do the things

1:01:30.080 --> 1:01:31.840
<v Speaker 3>they're quite capable of doing.

1:01:32.880 --> 1:01:34.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah.

1:01:34.600 --> 1:01:37.800
<v Speaker 2>And also like in certain environments, I'm happy to be

1:01:37.920 --> 1:01:42.800
<v Speaker 2>up the front, but in normal social environments, I absolutely

1:01:42.840 --> 1:01:44.080
<v Speaker 2>want to be at the back of the room. I

1:01:44.120 --> 1:01:46.680
<v Speaker 2>don't want anyone to draw attention to me. I do

1:01:46.840 --> 1:01:49.479
<v Speaker 2>not want to walk up. The amount of times where

1:01:49.520 --> 1:01:53.040
<v Speaker 2>I've been at a function like a fiftieth or people

1:01:53.080 --> 1:01:57.840
<v Speaker 2>go perhaps come and say something you're funny, I'm like, ah,

1:01:58.200 --> 1:01:59.120
<v Speaker 2>I don't, like.

1:01:59.200 --> 1:02:02.880
<v Speaker 1>I do not want to. We've all heard enough from me.

1:02:03.240 --> 1:02:06.400
<v Speaker 1>We're good. No, no, no, I hate.

1:02:06.120 --> 1:02:09.600
<v Speaker 2>That that stuff where yeah, just for the sake of

1:02:09.720 --> 1:02:12.760
<v Speaker 2>saying something I would rather like. I'd like to go

1:02:12.840 --> 1:02:15.400
<v Speaker 2>to whatever event, have some meaningful chats, talk to a

1:02:15.440 --> 1:02:17.840
<v Speaker 2>few people, not sit up the back with a chip

1:02:17.840 --> 1:02:21.360
<v Speaker 2>on my shoulder, but definitely not have any attention on

1:02:21.480 --> 1:02:24.840
<v Speaker 2>me unless I'm doing my job and that's what my

1:02:24.920 --> 1:02:28.240
<v Speaker 2>job requires. But other than that, none, Yes, So it

1:02:28.360 --> 1:02:30.360
<v Speaker 2>is it is funny. There is a little bit of

1:02:30.800 --> 1:02:32.800
<v Speaker 2>we do have something in common.

1:02:33.040 --> 1:02:36.920
<v Speaker 1>Hey, guess what. Guess what? You survived your first podcast?

1:02:37.200 --> 1:02:45.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? Go you. Hey, I feel like I've actually a

1:02:45.800 --> 1:02:50.560
<v Speaker 3>chieved something pretty cool. So thank you for giving me

1:02:50.720 --> 1:02:53.720
<v Speaker 3>this challenge, getting me through this challenge.

1:02:55.280 --> 1:02:57.560
<v Speaker 1>Do you know what for a first time? And you

1:02:57.640 --> 1:02:58.120
<v Speaker 1>did great?

1:02:58.200 --> 1:03:01.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, you did great for anyone really, So it's it's

1:03:02.000 --> 1:03:04.479
<v Speaker 2>very daunting because you don't know what's coming and you.

1:03:04.400 --> 1:03:05.680
<v Speaker 1>Don't like you kind of know.

1:03:05.800 --> 1:03:07.880
<v Speaker 2>I know what a podcast is, and I've heard Craig

1:03:07.960 --> 1:03:09.600
<v Speaker 2>talk on the su or whatever.

1:03:09.720 --> 1:03:11.880
<v Speaker 1>You can do a bit of prep. But sitting on

1:03:11.920 --> 1:03:12.440
<v Speaker 1>the other.

1:03:12.360 --> 1:03:16.200
<v Speaker 2>End of it, I'll tell you something that not many

1:03:16.200 --> 1:03:19.880
<v Speaker 2>people know. I reckon, I've done ten to fifteen podcasts.

1:03:19.960 --> 1:03:23.560
<v Speaker 2>Remember we've done well over two thousand. But where the

1:03:23.600 --> 1:03:28.040
<v Speaker 2>person that the person that I was talking to quite smart,

1:03:28.080 --> 1:03:31.960
<v Speaker 2>good communicators. They've got some interesting story, whether they've written

1:03:31.960 --> 1:03:34.760
<v Speaker 2>a book or done a thing, or their career.

1:03:34.520 --> 1:03:37.920
<v Speaker 1>Or their whatever. And then I put them. Then we

1:03:37.960 --> 1:03:40.280
<v Speaker 1>go live and I go, hey, we won blah blah blah.

1:03:40.080 --> 1:03:44.320
<v Speaker 2>And then the person becomes fifty percent Dummer straight away.

1:03:45.000 --> 1:03:47.480
<v Speaker 2>And it's like the person that I was just chatting

1:03:47.520 --> 1:03:51.680
<v Speaker 2>to has gone somewhere else. And we've had to restart

1:03:51.800 --> 1:03:53.800
<v Speaker 2>many times, and a few I just couldn't put to

1:03:53.840 --> 1:03:57.600
<v Speaker 2>air because so we didn't have to restart. You were good,

1:03:57.920 --> 1:04:01.280
<v Speaker 2>you did great, and you know, now we have to

1:04:01.280 --> 1:04:04.800
<v Speaker 2>get you back. So I appreciate you. Thank you for

1:04:04.840 --> 1:04:07.920
<v Speaker 2>your time. You probably need to go and have a

1:04:07.920 --> 1:04:14.080
<v Speaker 2>bit of a lie down. Now, do they brief, have

1:04:14.120 --> 1:04:15.200
<v Speaker 2>a good talk to yourself.

1:04:15.600 --> 1:04:17.320
<v Speaker 1>Now do you want to yes?

1:04:18.760 --> 1:04:21.280
<v Speaker 2>Now what happens on podcasts is at the end, the

1:04:21.280 --> 1:04:22.960
<v Speaker 2>host said says, is.

1:04:22.920 --> 1:04:24.160
<v Speaker 1>There anything you want to share?

1:04:24.200 --> 1:04:27.240
<v Speaker 2>Do you want to direct people towards anything, be that

1:04:27.320 --> 1:04:33.000
<v Speaker 2>a book, a website, a social media page, anything, or not?

1:04:33.160 --> 1:04:34.080
<v Speaker 1>Really up to you.

1:04:35.640 --> 1:04:40.400
<v Speaker 3>That's a bit of a question. Look, there's just so

1:04:40.600 --> 1:04:45.920
<v Speaker 3>much out the in terms of learning more about neuroda versions,

1:04:45.920 --> 1:04:49.080
<v Speaker 3>which I think is such a fascinating thing. To learn about,

1:04:49.120 --> 1:04:52.760
<v Speaker 3>but there's nothing specific I can recommend at the moment.

1:04:53.880 --> 1:04:57.680
<v Speaker 2>I really meant more your stuff. See, this is how

1:04:57.920 --> 1:05:00.520
<v Speaker 2>fresh you are. This is a chance for you to

1:05:00.560 --> 1:05:03.720
<v Speaker 2>promote you. It's not you promoting anyone else.

1:05:05.840 --> 1:05:08.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, not at the minute.

1:05:08.520 --> 1:05:11.400
<v Speaker 3>I know at the moment. Hopefully in the future I'll

1:05:11.440 --> 1:05:15.120
<v Speaker 3>have something to publicly share with others. In fact, I

1:05:15.160 --> 1:05:21.200
<v Speaker 3>would love to maybe publish some books about my personal experience.

1:05:21.440 --> 1:05:27.360
<v Speaker 3>So I have lots of ideas, lots of things I'm

1:05:27.360 --> 1:05:31.840
<v Speaker 3>hoping to pursue the future, But at the moment, I

1:05:31.880 --> 1:05:34.320
<v Speaker 3>don't feel there's anything that's quite ready to be shared

1:05:34.360 --> 1:05:35.160
<v Speaker 3>with others.

1:05:35.840 --> 1:05:39.720
<v Speaker 2>Well, you did share something amazing today, so we appreciate that.

1:05:40.120 --> 1:05:42.640
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for your time, Thanks for being brave.

1:05:42.840 --> 1:05:47.400
<v Speaker 2>Congratulations on ticking off your first podcast. You did a

1:05:47.440 --> 1:05:51.840
<v Speaker 2>good job, doctor Anna. We appreciate you. We will say

1:05:51.840 --> 1:05:55.000
<v Speaker 2>goodbye a fair so don't go away. I'll say goodbye

1:05:55.080 --> 1:05:59.040
<v Speaker 2>the listeners and then we'll come back. So hey everyone,

1:05:59.080 --> 1:06:00.720
<v Speaker 2>thanks for that. Appreciate you.

1:06:00.760 --> 1:06:02.920
<v Speaker 1>Hope you got something out of that, and we will

1:06:02.960 --> 1:06:03.680
<v Speaker 1>see you next time.

1:06:03.720 --> 1:06:06.320
<v Speaker 3>Thanks Enna, Thanks Craig, who is a pleasure