1 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey. 2 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: It's July twenty three, twenty twenty five. There's a revolt 3 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: brewing in the National Party, with elder statesmen and former 4 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: bitter rivals Michael McCormick and Barnaby Joyce joining forces to 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: make life difficult for leader David Little Proud, and it's 6 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: all about net zero policy. The bosses of Giants Superfund 7 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: host plus say Labour's plan for attacks on high superbalances 8 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: is half baked and should be reconsidered. Those exclusives alive 9 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: now at the Australian dot Com dot a U, along 10 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: with all the best coverage of federal politics. There's a 11 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: band of old school Greens who say their parties become 12 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: a cult, and it's all about women's rights and transgender 13 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: policy today, how one of the party's co founders found 14 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:11,320 Speaker 1: himself kicked to the curb, and why he's vowing revenge, fighting. 15 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 2: For the Satmonian worldnesses for at least the dead. 16 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 3: The Greens used to sound like this. 17 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 2: Well, we're going to fight the damming of the Franklin 18 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:22,759 Speaker 2: all the way that they do not want their money, 19 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 2: their taxes channeled through Canberra to destroy the National Heritage 20 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 2: for a dam that Tasmania doesn't want and can't pay for. 21 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 3: In twenty twenty five, they sound more like this. 22 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 4: Gender affirming healthcare is life changing and life. 23 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: Save and it's just horrifying in Gaza right now, horrific 24 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: the worst it's. 25 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,919 Speaker 3: Been With a minority government. The Greens can deliver dental 26 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 3: into Medicare and stronghousing and climate action wels. 27 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 4: Trans rights are human rights. 28 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: And there's a generation of the party's elders, old school 29 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: Greens activists who chained themselves to bulldozers and pioneered gay 30 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: rights in a Australia, who were finding the new look 31 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: Greens a bit challenging. 32 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 5: The Greens made a big mistake. They actually took this 33 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 5: action against somebody who knows how to campaign. I know 34 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 5: how to campaign and I'm going to campaign for free speech. 35 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: This is Drew Hutton. He's seventy eight and he's a 36 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: Greens founding father. He created the Queensland Greens and co 37 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: founded the Australian Greens along with the party's patron Saint 38 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: Bob Brown in nineteen ninety two. Earlier this week, the 39 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: party expelled Drew Hutton for what it said were transphobic views. 40 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: But it wasn't about something he said. It was about 41 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: what commenters on his Facebook page said. Back in twenty 42 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: twenty two, Hutton went on Facebook to support a member 43 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: of the party who'd been expelled for saying that women 44 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: should have female only spaces. Hutton's post was flooded with 45 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: comments from friends who agreed women's shelters, prisons, and changing 46 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,119 Speaker 1: rooms should be women only. Hutton didn't even agree with them, 47 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 1: He just let them have their say. 48 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 5: The Greens then told me that while there was nothing 49 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 5: that they could object you in my posts, that I 50 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 5: had to delete every one of those comments. Everyone had 51 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 5: to be deleted. And I said, but I believe in 52 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 5: free speech. These are legitimate points that these people are making. 53 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 5: They're not being defametory, they're not being abusive. Why should 54 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 5: I delete them? And I refused, So they said, well 55 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 5: you're suspended. You're suspended until you delete those comments. 56 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 3: Hutton refused. Now he's out. 57 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 5: Their motivation, I believe was if we can do it 58 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 5: to Drew Hutton, we can do it to anybody. So 59 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 5: keep your head down. The rest of you who think 60 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 5: this is such a thing as a sex based rights 61 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 5: and not gender identity, because if you put your head up, 62 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 5: the same thing's going to happen to you. 63 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: Jamie Walker is an associate editor with The Australian and 64 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: he's based in Queensland, where the Greens have had a 65 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: fascinating rise and then fall. They had three seats in 66 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: Federal Parliament until the most recent election. Now they've just 67 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: got one. But under the surface of the Greens there 68 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: are really interesting currents and cross currents. Jamie, there's two 69 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: different type of Greens. Can you explain for me what 70 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: they are? 71 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, traditionally they used to talk about the watermelon 72 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 4: Greens read on the inside, green on the outside. That 73 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 4: is a very deep marxistunderpinning, and what they'd call the 74 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 4: deep Greens, and that was people like Bob Brown who 75 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 4: were anchored in the environmental movement. But what you're seeing 76 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 4: play out in Queensland at the moment and nationally is 77 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 4: a more fundamental split within the Greens. It's a generational 78 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 4: divide and it's what mister Hutton has termed a transgender 79 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 4: and queer cult that has overtaken the Greens. I stressed 80 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 4: there his words, not mine, and that that power group 81 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 4: he alleges, has taken control of the party organs, administrative 82 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 4: committees and management committees, are more importantly, the disciplinary committees 83 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 4: right around the country, and it's chasing out anybody who 84 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 4: won't toe the party line on transgender issues. 85 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: I had to look at the Greens policy platform, Jamie, 86 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: and what it says is that the Greens want trans 87 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: and gender diverse young people to have the freedom and 88 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: support to affirm their gender. Any medical interventions involved in 89 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: this process should be guided foremost by the young person, 90 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: with the advice and support of medical specialists. Now, what 91 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: is missing from that that is causing a difference of 92 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: opinion among some of these older Greens, like Drew Hutton. 93 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 4: I think one thing that's notably missing is the term 94 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 4: parent There is no mention about parental consent. There is 95 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 4: no definition either of what a young person is. I mean, 96 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 4: are they talking about teenagers, are they talking about people 97 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 4: in the early ties? It is now presumably anyone over eighteen, 98 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 4: of course, has a right to do what they see fit. However, 99 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 4: when you're talking about teenagers, but the impact of puberty 100 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 4: blockers and medical intervention on young people that can't be 101 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 4: reversed is an issue of great concern. Now. Drew Hutton's position, 102 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 4: and I guess the position of many people of his 103 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 4: ilk in the Greens, isn't necessarily dogmatic on this. Simply Hey, 104 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 4: you know, we need to have a discussion about this, 105 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 4: and our policy platform needs to be informed about this discussion. 106 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 1: Equal rights for gay and queer people are tootemic for 107 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: the Greens. This was one of the issues that got 108 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 1: them their first seats in any parliament. Bob Brown, the 109 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: former Federal leader, was the first leader of any party 110 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: to be openly gay, the first Federal MP to be 111 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: openly gay. 112 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 3: Why is this different, Jamie. 113 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: Why is someone like Drew Hutton now being forced out 114 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: given that he has a heritage of campaigning so hard 115 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 1: for the rights of people in this community. 116 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, I think Drew Hutton's position is that to him, 117 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 4: it's actually not about so much the issue of transgender rights, 118 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 4: which he agrees with. He says a transgender person should 119 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 4: have no more or no less rights than any adult austrade, 120 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 4: but he sees this as an issue of free speech. Now, 121 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 4: he has concerned some concerns about the Green platform. He 122 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 4: thinks it should be more nuanced, and he'd liked those 123 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 4: concerns addressed. He'd like to be able to raise it 124 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 4: in party forums. Instead, he's thrown out of the party. 125 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 4: He also is very angry about being denied what he 126 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 4: sees as due process. Now at no point was he 127 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 4: allowed to confront or challenge directly the people who made 128 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 4: the accusations against him, who laid the complaints against him. 129 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 4: And this is something that we're finding is a very 130 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 4: common theme as we talk to other people who'd been expelled. 131 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 4: There's more than thirty of them, and they all tell 132 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 4: a common story. The other thing that's very interesting is 133 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 4: that most of the people being expelled are women. 134 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, that is interesting, and it goes hand in hand 135 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: with the probably global trend of it being women speaking 136 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: the loudest about their concerns about encroachment on women only spaces. 137 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: For example, JK. Rowling, the author Martina navattlover the Athlete 138 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: have been very forthright in saying that something that must 139 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: be preserved as more people's rights are recognized is the 140 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: right for biological women to have spaces, whether it's prisons 141 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: or breastfeeding rooms. 142 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 3: Or schools that are just for women. 143 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 1: Is that something that Drew Hutton and the other Greens 144 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: that you've spoken to are passionate about. Is it about 145 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: safe spaces for them? 146 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 4: Jamie, Absolutely, Yeah, they are saying the platform should be revisited. 147 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 4: I mean, and it's not unreasonable. When they attempt to 148 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 4: raise these issues, then the hell down and they say 149 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 4: they are hew down, and it's by what Drew Cutton 150 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:09,839 Speaker 4: calls this cult. They are then facing punitive action. They 151 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 4: are suspended and then expelled. You see some of the 152 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 4: language of these complaints. They're almost stalinist. You know, they're 153 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 4: expecting people to make pledgues that I'm actually being genuine 154 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 4: with you, you know, and all this sort of stuff 155 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 4: because they the people make the complaints don't believe that 156 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 4: their heart is in what they say. 157 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: This is the great trope of kind of progressive or 158 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: left wing thought, isn't it that, just like the Revolution 159 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: in Russia, which was all about equality and the working class, 160 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: that it drifts slowly towards totalitarianism of either thought or 161 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: deed or both. You know that everyone has to have 162 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:45,079 Speaker 1: the same opinion. 163 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 4: Well exactly, I mean, this is part of the criticism 164 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 4: that is coming out of this here as a party 165 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 4: that is founded in a left wing tradition is founded 166 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 4: in tolerance, is founded in raising up the rights of 167 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 4: gay people. And you mentioned, you know, Bob Brown's extraordinary 168 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 4: life story. That's you know, this is part of the 169 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,079 Speaker 4: tradition of the Greens. And yet what is now happening 170 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 4: intolerance is being wielded as a weapon against some of 171 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 4: the very people who founded the party. It's an extraordinary outcome. 172 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 4: Drew Hutton says, I don't recognize the party that I 173 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 4: founded anymore. 174 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: Coming up should be all these just pan the Greens 175 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: over to a fresh new set of future leaders. 176 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 5: It is not bigoted to say a girl or a 177 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 5: woman should not have to compete in a sporting team 178 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 5: against a biological male. There is nothing bigoted about that. 179 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:00,040 Speaker 5: Where to put our spear in the ground and the 180 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 5: organizations like the Greens think that that's something that they've 181 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 5: got to snuff out and watch out they're going to 182 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 5: get hit by a freight train. 183 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 3: Is there an element of this, Jamie? 184 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: Where do you think the old people you know, have 185 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: to stand back and accept that what is now progressive. 186 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 3: Thought has left them behind. 187 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: You know, the ideas that the Greens have advocated have 188 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 1: always been on the radical fringe before they become the mainstream, 189 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: including for example, marriage equality that was a wild idea 190 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,359 Speaker 1: in the early nineteen eighties. Now it's completely mainstream. 191 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 4: Yeah maybe maybe I think though that you know, some 192 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 4: of the old campaigners are making the point, where are 193 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 4: the results on the board for the new generation. I mean, 194 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 4: they had a breakthrough result in Brisbane at the twenty 195 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 4: twenty two election where they had three MPs elected, and 196 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 4: what happened in May they lost two of those seats. 197 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 4: They lost the seat of Adam Bant, their leader in Melbourne. 198 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 4: And you know when you see the Greens trying to 199 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 4: spin that, oh look, you know our vote was our 200 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 4: primary vote actually went up, will you kind of go 201 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 4: be real mate. You know, this is a party that 202 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 4: went backwards at an enormous rate of knots at the 203 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 4: last election and it suggests that the public are not 204 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 4: buying what they're selling. 205 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: Jamie Walker is The Australian's associate editor. You can check 206 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: out his reporting and a piece Drew Hutton wrote for 207 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: The Australian Right Now at the Australian dot com dot 208 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: au