WEBVTT - Rick Morton and the spreadsheet of secrets 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:04.560 Okay, So, Rick, a spreadsheet might not usually be the 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:08.280 most exciting place to start a story necessarily, but this 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:09.680 spreadsheet is different. 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:11.240 It was so red. 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:13.120 Hot that there were many people who. 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:15.480 Denied that it even existed for months. 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:18.520 So tell me about the spreadsheet, what is in it 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:20.160 and when did you first hear about it? 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:21.560 First of all, Ruby, how dare you? 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:24.840 Spreadsheets are very exciting in my line of work, but 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:25.800 particularly this one. 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:29.560 Rick Morton was writing about the crisis at Australian universities 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:33.120 earlier this year when some documents from the University of 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:37.280 Technology Sydney caught his eye. Uts said, hired the big 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:40.880 consulting firm KPMG to help them save one hundred million 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:43.440 dollars through a restructure, and. 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:46.640 It's a restructure we've now just seen start. They announced 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:50.440 eleven hundred subjects will be axed, the entire School of 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:54.279 Education is gone, and one hundred and sixty full time 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:57.440 equivalent jobs in academic workforce are gone, and there's about 0:00:57.440 --> 0:00:59.480 to be two hundred and forty more across professional staff. 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:02.920 So this is a significant kind of swinging cut across 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:05.160 the university to save one hundred million dollars a year. 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:08.000 As he read through the documents, he noticed there was 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:12.399 a request from UTS asking KPMG to create a master 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:16.800 Excel spreadsheet, one that ranked researchers by how much money 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:17.680 they were bringing in. 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:22.480 Now that's interesting to me because you can't make someone 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:26.280 redundant purely based on performance. If they've got a performance 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:29.800 issue such as not researching enough for bringing in enough money, 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:32.160 that has to be dealt with under a separate part 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:36.039 of the EBA. So why would UTS be asking for 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:39.839 this breakdown from KPMG in a redundancy drive. 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:43.720 That question sent Rick on a hunt to find out 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:47.039 was this list real, and what he found reveals a 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:50.240 lot about the way Australian universities are grappling with the 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:53.240 pressure to be profitable at a time when research and 0:01:53.320 --> 0:02:00.480 learning is under threat. I'm Ruby Jones, and you listening 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:06.639 to seven AM Today journalist Rick Morton on UTS, KPMG and. 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:08.120 The secret Spreadsheet. 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:21.240 It's Thursday October two. Okay, so you hear about this spreadsheet. 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:24.880 Clearly there are questions about what it is, how it's 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:27.880 being used, and whether it's allowed to be used in 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:30.800 that way. So tell me a bit more about how 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:32.800 you go about finding out more about it. 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:34.320 And how the university responds. 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:37.120 It's a great question because you know, they could have 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:40.840 explained this away. I wouldn't have believed the explanation potentially, 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:42.960 but they could have said, look, we asked for it 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:44.800 as an input, but we weren't using it to make 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:45.639 any decisions. 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:47.240 We've got all this other work going on. 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:49.560 But what they ended up doing was it scenes from 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:52.239 the outside trying to hide the fact that this spreadsheet 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:55.720 was even handed over to the university. And that's when 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:57.919 my spider sense as a journalist starts to go off. 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:01.639 People were trying to get access to this thing. There 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:03.760 was mentioned in all of these work orders. There were 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:07.680 under Fredmin Information laws in New South Wales called Keeper 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:11.519 people were putting in requests for access to the contracts, 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:14.720 the work orders, the status reports, and in every one 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:18.080 of these there is reference to this master Excel spreadsheet. 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:19.600 Which UTS has asked for. 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:22.880 And in the March contract signed by the Vice Chancellor 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.760 this year, Andrew Parfitt not only said they'd asked for it, 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:29.840 but that they'd completed it and so where is this 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:33.040 thing right? And so fys get put in. There's one 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:36.320 from the National Tertiary Education Union branch officials as another 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:41.400 anonymous person who submits a keeper request and the FYS 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:44.120 come back and there is no documentation. They say that 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:46.880 we can't find this spreadsheet. Yes, it was asked for 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:50.080 early on, but it never eventuated because the work was discontinued. 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:52.480 People say, this doesn't make any sense, so they're write 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.800 back clarifying emails to the head of Corporate Information at 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:59.760 the University of Technology, Sydney, who writes back, I can advise, however, 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:03.960 that this master spreadsheetem quoting did not eventuate and was 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:07.560 no longer required as an output of the OSI what 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:10.320 they call the Operational Sustainability Initiative, that's. 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:15.760 The restructure, And I mean, what do we know about that. 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:17.480 Does the spreadsheet exist? 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:18.039 It does? 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:22.560 It does, but only we only know this because people 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:25.600 much smarter than me kept going back to the university saying, 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:27.839 hang on a second, this doesn't make any sense because 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:29.960 in the workhorder, not only do they say that this 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:32.880 thing is requested, but there are clear status updates from 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:36.279 KPMG that explain that the work has been discussed with 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:40.960 the Deputy Vice Chancellor of Research, Professor Katherine McGrath, and 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:43.120 that the analysis will be prepared. 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:43.880 You know. 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.560 In the contract signed by Parthad it says activity one 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:51.279 point one validate diagnostic analysis was shown as completed before 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.039 Christmas twenty twenty four, So what's going on here? And 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:57.200 so people kept submitting more keeper requests. There was an 0:04:57.240 --> 0:04:59.160 internal review of the one that was put in by 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:03.920 the Tertiary union and the barrister hired by a UTS 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:09.479 to conduct that internal review was himself misled about the 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:10.960 existence of this spreadsheet. 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:14.320 Right, tell me more about that. So the university hired 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:17.799 this someone to look into their own response to these 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:21.840 essentially freedom of information requests and tell me about what 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:22.719 they told the barrister. 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:25.200 Yeah, So the barrister can only report and they're from 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:28.480 Wentworth Chambers, so they're an independent legal expert. They can 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:31.200 only report and find what they're told by the university 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:34.120 and the university. This barrister sets out a bunch of questions, 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:36.720 essentially saying this is what has been asked for. These 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:40.000 are the contentions an issue for this internal review? Can 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:42.120 you give me the detail of them? And one of 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:45.680 those questions is was there a spreadsheet? And they say no, 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:51.600 there was no spreadsheet. And the barrister in the internal 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:54.719 review found that there was no excess spreadsheet, and again 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.040 people came back and said, we don't believe this, and 0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:59.800 it's only because of this kind of you know, months 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:05.120 of pushing that suddenly low and behold the university finds. 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:06.040 The spreadsheet. 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:09.480 Coming up. 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:22.880 What this saga says about the state of Australia's universities. Okay, 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:26.200 so they did not reveal the existence of the spreadsheet 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:30.480 to Freedom of Information requests. They didn't tell the barrister 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:35.800 they hired about the spreadsheet. So the university, I mean, 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.240 for starters, are they breaking the law here by not 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:42.200 revealing information they potentially should to an FOI request? 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:45.640 By their own admission, they told the barrister conducting the 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:48.440 internal review that if this document existed then absolutely it 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:51.200 should have been handed over under the Geeper law, the 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:54.120 access to information public access law in New South Wales. 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:57.520 And also accidentally not supplying it is not an excuse. 0:06:57.760 --> 0:06:59.640 You have to do a proper thorough search for these 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:02.520 docums and it's when they're requested. Now, how hard could 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:05.440 it have been to find this spreadsheet? Well, as it 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:07.920 turns out, not very hard at all, because there is 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:12.160 an email with it to the Deputy Vice Chancellor Research 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:16.880 Professor Catherine McGrath at her request discussing the breakdown or 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:22.280 the research output by staff name, staff id, staff, position, 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:27.120 category of research, category of employment. It's all there and 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:31.040 we know that the DVCR, the Deputy Vice Chancellor of Research, 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:37.560 was the senior person responsible for the Research Priority and 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:42.400 Investment section of the KPMG restructure, So that would have 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:44.360 been the first person you go to and go, hey, 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:46.960 you know that whole section of work that we paid for, 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:49.080 that was listed in the work order, that was listed 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:52.120 in the status updates that said there was an ex salesprea. 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:54.320 Sheeet did you get it? And we now know that 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:56.320 she did because she asked for it. 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:57.240 How do we know that? 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:01.080 So in October last year there was an all day 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:03.880 leadership retreat, but it was held at uts On campus, 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:05.240 so I don't know how much of a retreat it was, 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:08.000 but all the senior leaders were there, the vice Chancellor, 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:11.520 the Deeputy Vice Chancellor Research, the vice Chancellor's chief of staff. 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:12.840 They were all doing a hands on. There was a 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:16.640 huge presentation from KPMG. Part of that presentation was about 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:19.520 the Research Priority and Investment part of their work, which 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:23.520 is Katherine McGrath's business and during that day she emails 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:24.680 a KPMG partner. 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.040 We don't know the name because all the KPMG names are. 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:29.800 Redacted and says hi, I assume you have a list 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:32.920 of all the individuals from level A through level E 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:35.360 that are in the bottom twenty five percent or have 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:38.880 no research er. It's kind of like research income or 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:42.600 research outputs McGrath wrote, And that was on seventeenth of October. 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:44.600 Would you be able to send that to me so 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:47.120 I can get a sense of this now. The KPMG 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:49.559 people were doing the retreat that day, but they respond 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:51.720 the following week on the Monday. We hope that you 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:53.199 were well and that you had a lovely weekend. 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:55.680 How nice. Twenty first of October. 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:58.880 For the initial diagnostic analysis work, we focused on identifying 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:01.640 level D and E reason searches only who are in 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:05.000 the bottom twenty fifth quartol for research income and publications, 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:08.680 and the list of level DN E researches with zero 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:12.840 income and or zero publication across the same three year period. 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:15.360 Just for explanation, DNA are kind of like the most 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:18.760 highly paid people at a university. So we're talking I 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:22.800 think assistant or associate professors and professors DN and so 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:25.520 if you're going to cut these people in a redundancy program, 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:28.000 you would save the most amount of money. So it's 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:30.360 quite significant in that sense. And so that's how they 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:32.559 set it out in the email. And then they attached 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:36.040 to that email the spreadsheet which was password protected and 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:40.000 it contained I counted them myself, eighteen pages of individual 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:43.080 staff names for the Deputy Vice Chancellor Research. 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:46.120 Okay, so now that we know that it does exist 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:48.600 and that's what's in it, what has the university said 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:53.319 about why they have it and why they didn't reveal 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:53.920 it for so long. 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:56.800 It's a question we still don't have a proper answer to. 0:09:57.240 --> 0:09:59.280 But suddenly, when they are forced to hand it over, 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:03.640 after you know, multiple requests from people, they insert a 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:07.640 little context paragraph that says, oh, okay, yeah, look here 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:10.800 is the spreadsheet. What happened was that it was part 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:13.840 of a portion of work that was discontinued. It was 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:17.839 discontinued in May this year and it was never finalized, 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:21.240 but there was this spreadsheet that went to early on 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:24.800 the Deputy Vice Chancellor Research and she decided to intervene. 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:30.079 Now I asked them what intervene means? In this context. 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:31.400 It's weird. It's weird. 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:34.439 They kind of give you three options and say pick one. 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:38.120 So they said, UTS has previously responded tokeeeper and information 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:40.400 requests relating to KPMG documents. 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:40.960 Yeah, we know. 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:44.240 However, those responses did not include the list that has 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:48.199 now been provided via this more recent keeper request. Yep, 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:51.400 this may have been this is fun this part. This 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:54.400 may have been due to search parameters being too broad, 0:10:55.200 --> 0:11:01.160 inaccurate assessment of the documents, or genuine human error. Do 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:03.040 they tell us which one they think it is? No, 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:06.920 so take your pick. They say, UTS takes its keep 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:10.680 oblications very seriously. We can absolutely rule out any perceived 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:12.400 or actual conflicts of interest. 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:14.680 Well, what happened? 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.319 Was it in an accurate assessment of documents? And if so, 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:19.440 who did the inaccurate assessment? Because we all know what 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:21.840 a spreadsheet looks like, we all know what was being 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:22.360 asked for. 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:25.199 Was a genuine human error? Who made the error? 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:27.280 I asked them if they're going to retract the internal 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:31.200 review the findings of the internal review, and they did 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:33.880 not answer that question. So, you know, I don't know 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:37.920 what happened. We're not any closer to the truth. On 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:40.160 this front, but I think it does. It's a problem, 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:43.200 right because it then speaks to this border issue of well, 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:45.960 how transparent are the decisions being made? Not just in 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:50.240 this restructure, but as we know from the governance inquiries 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:53.120 in the universities across the country, there is a transparency 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:57.079 problem across the entire sector. And this is a great 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:01.320 case study in how easily those two insparency issues can arise. 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:06.160 So the university has now admitted that the spreadsheet exists, 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:09.160 but they have said they didn't rely on it in 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:15.199 making decisions. And this is one story. This is one university, 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:18.400 it's one spreadsheet, but it does speak to these broader issues, 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.320 as you say, of governance in the sector. So what 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:24.320 does it tell you about how universities are grappling with 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:28.280 the pressure to be profitable versus their role, their public 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:31.440 role as you say, as places of research and learning. 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:32.600 Yeah, it's not good. 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:35.800 I mean the parliamentary the Senate inquiry into governance Quality 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:40.320 of governance at Australian Higher Education Institutions was the interim 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:42.079 report was released just you know, a week and a 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:44.440 half two weeks ago now, and in that there are 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:47.120 so many examples, you know, there's an example from I 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:50.800 think the NTEU branch at Monash University, where apparently the 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:55.240 university commissioned this entire governance review of the council never 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:58.199 told staff or students that it was happening. The governance 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:01.480 review was apparently finished handed to the council, has never 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:02.280 been made public. 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:05.199 What did it find? What say do people have in 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:06.520 how these institutions are run. 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:09.480 We know more than we should now about what happened 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:13.760 at Australian National University. The vice Chancellor's resigned, the chancellor's 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.040 really bishop is still there. But there is a story 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:21.400 at every university for this issue. And partly that is 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:27.040 the fault of government regulation but also government funding. 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:29.559 And so universities have been brought to this. 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:34.480 Position of weakness by our own oversight and then they've 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:38.680 panicked in the face of these terrible policies. Rightly so, well, 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:41.160 the policy is bad, but they shouldn't panic. And the 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:45.679 panic is now going to harm these institutions by gutting them. 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:48.640 Some would say you're reparably for years to come. 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:51.960 Well, Rick, thank you for your time. 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:53.960 I'm always happy to help Ruby, thank you. 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:58.920 And Rick Morton's recent book Meanstreak about the Coalition's deadly 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:02.000 Robodette scheme was one of six winners of this year's 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:06.200 Prime Minister's Literary Award, taking the award for nonfiction. So 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:09.080 we just wanted to say congratulations from all of us 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:23.440 at seven am. Also in the news today, a former 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:27.120 Human Rights commissioner and one of Australia's most experienced international 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:31.280 legal experts is urging Australia to cut military ties with Israel, 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.600 warning the government risks being complicit in genocide if it 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:38.440 fails to act. Chris Sadoti, one of three commissioners selected 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:41.240 by the Human Rights Council which found that Israel's war 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:45.400 crimes in Gaza constituted genocide, has addressed the National Press Club. 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:49.000 He says Camber needs to apply more comprehensive sanctions on 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:52.560 Israel and ensure no Australian made parts were going into 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:57.560 Israeli warplanes. And Prime Minister Anthony Abernezi has welcomed the 0:14:57.560 --> 0:14:59.840 Trump Administration's proposed. 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:00.720 Peace plan for Gaza. 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:04.240 The US President announced the plan alongside the Israeli Prime 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:08.480 Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Tuesday, which involves Gaza being governed 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:12.120 by a transitional committee headed by Donald Trump and includes 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:15.360 a former British Prime Minister Tony Blair. The plan has 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:18.720 received criticism, including from the Australian Greens, who say it 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:22.040 removes the right of Palestinians to determine their own future. 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:25.640 I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.