Speaker 1: Welcome to How Do They Afford That, the podcast that
Speaker 1: peaks into the financial lives of everyday Australians. I'm Michael Thompson.
Speaker 1: I'm an author and the co host of the business
Speaker 1: news podcast Fear and Greed. As always, I'm with Canna Campbell,
Speaker 1: financial planner and founder of Sugar Mumer TV, the financial
Speaker 1: literacy platform covering YouTube and podcasts obviously like this one
Speaker 1: on Instagram, and threads and TikTok and books like our
Speaker 1: upcoming book, Twelve Months to Financial Freedom. Hello, Canna, good morning,
Speaker 1: how are you. I'm going very well. A very topical
Speaker 1: episode today property investing, which has changed a little bit
Speaker 1: this year, Hasn't it just a wee bit When people
Speaker 1: talk about property investing in Australia, the conversation has always
Speaker 1: gone towards negative gearing, just because it's been such a
Speaker 1: key part of that landscape. Right, It's not the case anymore,
Speaker 1: it's not the case that that is the first thing
Speaker 1: that you think. Now the landscape for property investment in
Speaker 1: Australia has changed. So today I want to talk to you, obviously,
Speaker 1: that's why we're in the studio together to get an
Speaker 1: idea basically of how you can still make property investing
Speaker 1: work for you, and I suspect got a little hunch
Speaker 1: that it might have something to do with passive income
Speaker 1: rather than the negative gearing and the tax incentives. We
Speaker 1: love our passive income, we certainly do. Okay, let's get
Speaker 1: into it. And of course this is not financial advice,
Speaker 1: no one whatsoever. So if you hear something here that
Speaker 1: you go, okay, all right, that makes a lot of
Speaker 1: sense to me, and I'll look into that. Speak to
Speaker 1: a professional, Go and see a financial planner who can
Speaker 1: give you some advice that is tailored to your circumstances.
Speaker 1: Property investing, is it still a valid way to build
Speaker 1: wealth in Australia?
Speaker 2: I believe so.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: The way that you do it is most important, not
Speaker 2: necessarily that it you know, it's property or not. It's
Speaker 2: not a black and white question. I think the strategy,
Speaker 2: the approach, the ultimate goal has now changed with the
Speaker 2: federal budget.
Speaker 1: Okay. As far as maybe let's deal with negative gearing, okay, first, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: because it's not completely off the table, is it maybe
Speaker 1: explained to us how negative gearing worked previously, because it's
Speaker 1: it still does exist.
Speaker 2: Okay, So negative gearing is essentially where holding an investment
Speaker 2: asset costs you. So say I go and buy a
Speaker 2: million dollar investment property, and I receive, say fifty thousand
Speaker 2: dollars a year in rent, but I'm paying out seventy
Speaker 2: thousand dollars a year in interest, is technically costing me
Speaker 2: twenty thousand dollars. Now, previously, you know, if I had
Speaker 2: bought that property prior to budget Night, I'd be able
Speaker 2: to claim the twenty thousand dollars off my tax as
Speaker 2: a deduction. Going forward, if I bought that after budget Night,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't be able to claim that off my tax,
Speaker 2: assuming it's not a new build, and even going forward
Speaker 2: with the new builds, it's actually quarantined to the rental income,
Speaker 2: so you can only actually offset that negative like cashow
Speaker 2: negative against other rental income. You can't use it to
Speaker 2: take off as a deduction off, say your salary. So
Speaker 2: it's a significant change in the landscape and also the
Speaker 2: terms and conditions of the game.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, and I think for the purposes of this conversation,
Speaker 1: we'll just look at kind of how it works from
Speaker 1: now on one rather than those who already hold investment properties,
Speaker 1: because the way that negative gearing works is largely unchanged
Speaker 1: for those who have already been in the system prior
Speaker 1: to the changes being introduced by the budget.
Speaker 2: And that's really important because I think a lot of
Speaker 2: headlines obviously are confusing people. So I've even had people
Speaker 2: reach out to me and say, oh, do I need
Speaker 2: to sell my negatively geared property right now because these rules.
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, hang on. Obviously not advice, but you
Speaker 2: can still keep going with what you've got in place
Speaker 2: prior to budget night. So people do need to understand
Speaker 2: how these rules impact them, and some people it doesn't
Speaker 2: impact them at all.
Speaker 1: Okay, So that means there are obviously loopholes and exemptions here,
Speaker 1: and they are really related to new properties.
Speaker 2: New builds, so you know, a new apartment, a new townhouse,
Speaker 2: you know, a new house. So it's it's a really
Speaker 2: interesting time because you think, you know, when do I
Speaker 2: look at something that's brand new, it's often really really expensive.
Speaker 2: And this is what worries me is that you know,
Speaker 2: perhaps people are going to be overpaying just to be
Speaker 2: able to access that negative gearing benefit, which is the
Speaker 2: worst reason to make an investment decision purely based on
Speaker 2: the tax But you know it is it is a
Speaker 2: bit of a red herring in this.
Speaker 1: That's actually that is a really really good point. The
Speaker 1: fact that I mentioned at the start of the show
Speaker 1: that as soon as we talk property investing, everyone just
Speaker 1: jumps straight to kind of negative gearing that there is
Speaker 1: this tax benefit. But it doesn't matter whether we're having
Speaker 1: this conversation ten years ago or now. Really the goal
Speaker 1: should be further ahead than the immediate tax incentives now, right,
Speaker 1: If you are investing in property, you should be looking
Speaker 1: ahead to the future value of that property, to the
Speaker 1: rent that that's going to bring in, and the potential
Speaker 1: for passive income.
Speaker 2: The opportunity for long term capital growth, and how it's
Speaker 2: going to work towards your goals. That's really, you know
Speaker 2: what's most important here.
Speaker 1: All right, let's get into the passive income side of this.
Speaker 1: When people say passive income through property, what are we
Speaker 1: actually talking about?
Speaker 2: Typically it's the rent. So if you have an investment
Speaker 2: property that's a residential investment property, you know they're paying rent.
Speaker 2: You know, if you say have land like you know
Speaker 2: for adjustment, which means you put cattle on it, and
Speaker 2: you know a farmer might pay to rent that land,
Speaker 2: you know, that's obviously an income stream. It might be
Speaker 2: like a commercial property might be an industrial property. You know,
Speaker 2: it's all comes to you in rent. The more rench
Speaker 2: you receive, the more passive income you're receiving.
Speaker 1: All right, what is it then that makes a property
Speaker 1: good for income for passive income rather than growth? And
Speaker 1: I suppose I don't know why I'm necessarily doing it
Speaker 1: as an either all because it doesn't need to be
Speaker 1: an either or you can have a property that is
Speaker 1: going to increase in value over time as well as
Speaker 1: being good for passive income, But what are the features
Speaker 1: of a property that's going to potentially deliver you that
Speaker 1: passive revenue stream?
Speaker 2: So this is I think something that people really do
Speaker 2: underestimate or overlook. Perhaps if you're going to be buying
Speaker 2: an investment property, you want consistency. You know, you want
Speaker 2: a long term tenant in between tenants, particularly if it's
Speaker 2: a bad time of the year, say Christmas time, Easter,
Speaker 2: school holidays, or you know, if it's out of season,
Speaker 2: like it's you know, a seasonal spot and it's winter
Speaker 2: time and you don't have people there, that can really
Speaker 2: be really, really detrimental. The other thing is is obviously
Speaker 2: making sure that you're getting that rental increase happening. Now.
Speaker 2: I know this is a bit of a source bo
Speaker 2: because obviously people are renting annoyed with rents going up.
Speaker 2: It's frustrating. But you know, if the value of the
Speaker 2: property is going up, well will the rent go up
Speaker 2: with it consistently over time? The reason why I say
Speaker 2: that there is a you know, there are people out
Speaker 2: there who have a property or properties and the rent
Speaker 2: hasn't actually increased with the value of the property. And
Speaker 2: that's why some people is actually cheaper to rent than
Speaker 2: it is to go and buy that property. So those
Speaker 2: are the sorts of things that you take into consideration.
Speaker 2: There's also you know, the holding cost of property as
Speaker 2: well that do actually eat into the actual gross income
Speaker 2: that you receive. So all those outgoing expenses like the strata,
Speaker 2: the insurance, you know, the property manager if you have one,
Speaker 2: the wear and tear, and of course you know the interest.
Speaker 2: So there's all these sort of come into play. But
Speaker 2: the two key most important things is consistency and an
Speaker 2: increase like long term growth of that rental income. You know,
Speaker 2: I take that example of that million dollar property, what
Speaker 2: if ten years later I'm still only getting you know,
Speaker 2: fifty thousand dollars a year in re That's not an
Speaker 2: efficient use of your money, is it, No, especially when
Speaker 2: I can to put that million dollars it's maybe grown
Speaker 2: a vale. Yes, And that does come into it. If
Speaker 2: we're purely talking income here, it's kind of an important
Speaker 2: factor that you need to be paying attention to.
Speaker 1: Okay, when I was talking before about negative gearing, that
Speaker 1: is almost an immediate benefit, right, you see, it's a
Speaker 1: tax incentive, and that's going to benefit you within the
Speaker 1: next kind of twelve months. Right. Can property genuinely produce
Speaker 1: meaningful income early on? Or are we talking here when
Speaker 1: we're talking about passive income. It's more of a long game, right,
Speaker 1: So it's not this is something that you need to
Speaker 1: kind of look, this is a future play. Is that
Speaker 1: that's fair to say?
Speaker 2: Yes? You know, with these these changes, it changes the
Speaker 2: approach and it is going to change our behavior around
Speaker 2: investing in property, you know, because of course you know,
Speaker 2: things like capital games, tax as well, and then of
Speaker 2: course all the stamp duty, all the expenses of getting
Speaker 2: into the market. This is no longer a market where
Speaker 2: you're sort of jumping in and out of property obviously
Speaker 2: with the exception of a principal place of residence, you know,
Speaker 2: But for an investment point of view, no, this is
Speaker 2: very much now long term buy and hold because you know,
Speaker 2: especially if you buy a property initially, you can still
Speaker 2: technically negatively gear it. No one's stopping you from doing that. However,
Speaker 2: the banks have come out and said, obviously they're going
Speaker 2: to be a lot stricter now going forward with negatively
Speaker 2: gear properties. But just the only thing is you can't
Speaker 2: claim that twenty thousand dollars loss they use that example
Speaker 2: off your tax. You just have to wear it. So
Speaker 2: it's not efficient anymore. And there will be some people
Speaker 2: who don't care that still works for them. They don't
Speaker 2: they're not worried because it's all part of a long
Speaker 2: term play. So it still will exist, but it's going
Speaker 2: to be used and approached very very differently, all right.
Speaker 1: I think what I'm what I'm also trying to get
Speaker 1: at is that this is almost a mindset change, right,
Speaker 1: that this is not something that you are doing as
Speaker 1: a short term strategy, but it is going to be
Speaker 1: something that you are going to reap the rewards of
Speaker 1: further down the track. Where is that tipping point between
Speaker 1: a property that has been essentially negatively geared or you
Speaker 1: might be losing money on it because the amount that
Speaker 1: you're paying to the bank in interest is more than
Speaker 1: what you are bringing in in rent. When does that
Speaker 1: then flip to become positively geared, when you actually start
Speaker 1: to create revenue and actually start to generate passive income
Speaker 1: from that property.
Speaker 2: So this is the exciting part. It really boils down
Speaker 2: to you as the investor and your situation and what
Speaker 2: you're capable of doing and what you ultimately want to do.
Speaker 2: So if you have a property it's negatively geared, and
Speaker 2: you can obviously start working on that strategy to pay
Speaker 2: it down yourself. You can start making extra payments to
Speaker 2: create more equity in that loan, pay down the loan
Speaker 2: so that more and more of the rent that's coming
Speaker 2: in isn't just servicing the interest, it's starting to actually
Speaker 2: pay down the principle. That's when we see it say
Speaker 2: it's cash flow positive or at the very least cash
Speaker 2: flow neutral. So that is when the rent coming in
Speaker 2: equals the cost of the interest. So that property that's
Speaker 2: rented out for fifty thousand dollars a year, I start
Speaker 2: slowly chipping away at that million dollar loan. For example,
Speaker 2: You know the cost of that interest is no longer
Speaker 2: seventy thousand dollars, it's say fifty thousand. Is breaking even?
Speaker 2: That is what I'm talking about. He who's been cash
Speaker 2: flow neutral. If I want to make it cash flow positive,
Speaker 2: obviously I need to keep chipping away at that loan.
Speaker 2: Now how long that takes or how much money that's
Speaker 2: going to involve It is obviously boils down to what's
Speaker 2: the size of the loan, what's the interest you're paying,
Speaker 2: what's the terms and conditions. Is it a twenty five
Speaker 2: year loan? Is it a thirty year loan? Is it
Speaker 2: principle an interest? All these sorts of things come in.
Speaker 2: And this is where the big thing with this these
Speaker 2: huge changes is more than ever before, people are going
Speaker 2: to be leaning on financial planners, accountants, and mortgage brokers
Speaker 2: for really good quality advice as to what to do.
Speaker 2: And it's not going to be setting forget. There's going
Speaker 2: to be tweaks and changes to the overall strategy to
Speaker 2: get them to where they want to be. And it's
Speaker 2: going to force people to really look at their goals
Speaker 2: here and a lot of people are going to have
Speaker 2: to adjust their goals to perhaps being now more passive
Speaker 2: income driven.
Speaker 1: Okay, there's a lot more that I want to discuss.
Speaker 1: I want to kind of find out what risks people
Speaker 1: perhaps underestimate, and also a little bit more about the
Speaker 1: potential and who else might be suited to property investing
Speaker 1: in this new world of investing. Back in a moment,
Speaker 1: can we've been talking about property investing for passive income
Speaker 1: now that negative gearing is no longer the feature of
Speaker 1: the investing landscape that it was. Interest only loans you
Speaker 1: mentioned just before about whether you're paying principle plus interest
Speaker 1: on your loan. Interest only loans going to be a
Speaker 1: thing of the past now that there isn't this tax
Speaker 1: incentive really to just be focusing on the interest.
Speaker 2: Okay, it's a very fluid situation, and the banks seems
Speaker 2: to be bouncing around with their rates, with their rules
Speaker 2: and regulations that they have to adhere to. You know,
Speaker 2: how much you know, there's there's I mean, it's quite complicated,
Speaker 2: it's quite political and economic. But so I won't go
Speaker 2: into too much detail, but it's definitely going to be
Speaker 2: harder to get these types of loans. But it's really
Speaker 2: going to boil down to the rate that you're able
Speaker 2: to secure and what is best for your cash flow situation.
Speaker 2: And there are going to be people who are in
Speaker 2: a situation where actually having interest only does still work
Speaker 2: for them. You know, you can still have an interest
Speaker 2: only loan and still have a cash flow positive property,
Speaker 2: right yeah, okay, so Jim, sure please take take that
Speaker 2: through it, I'd say. We'll say, for example, I have,
Speaker 2: you know, this million dollar investment property, and say I
Speaker 2: have a four hundred thousand dollars loan on that. I'm
Speaker 2: earning fifty thousand dollars a year in rent from the
Speaker 2: million dollar property, but I've only got a four hundred
Speaker 2: thousand dollar loan. So obviously the interest rate on that
Speaker 2: four hundred thousand dollar loan is mostly going to be
Speaker 2: less than what I'm receiving in rent. So therefore it's
Speaker 2: still cash flow positive. And this is why the banks
Speaker 2: will look at it, you know, as they do case
Speaker 2: by case. What is the situation behind this and also
Speaker 2: what's backing that loan? You know, is there a fleet
Speaker 2: of investment properties behind this particular person, you know, or
Speaker 2: is there huge amounts of equity elsewhere you can't just
Speaker 2: put this generic, blank, one size fits all rule. It's
Speaker 2: very circumstantial and situational. And also on that note of
Speaker 2: going interest only, is it still exists because for some
Speaker 2: people in certain situations where maybe they're going through financial
Speaker 2: hardship or they are you know, they're having a family,
Speaker 2: and then the bank approves this, they might say, well, okay,
Speaker 2: to help keep the loans in place, not put you
Speaker 2: in a position where you're forced to sell. You know,
Speaker 2: the numbers stack up to be able to flick you
Speaker 2: to investment only interest only sorry for say a twelve
Speaker 2: month period in most get you through the cash with
Speaker 2: the cash flow.
Speaker 1: Okay. In most cases, though, if you are working towards
Speaker 1: a goal of generating passive income through your investment property,
Speaker 1: most people with that goal are probably going to be
Speaker 1: paying principle and interest, aren't they in order just to
Speaker 1: get that loan down so that eventually the rent that
Speaker 1: they're bringing in exceeds the amount they're paying out an interest.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you will, you would ideally if that's your goal
Speaker 2: to create that equity, to create that passive income, you
Speaker 2: want that loan coming down. However, this is the other thing.
Speaker 2: It's there's a lot more nuances in this than people
Speaker 2: realize from a surface level. There are situations where people
Speaker 2: may not actually be able to be approved for that
Speaker 2: loan on the P and I numbers. They can only
Speaker 2: get approved under interest only. Now, with interest only, Just
Speaker 2: because the bank has put you on an interest only
Speaker 2: doesn't mean you follow that prescription. You can still treat
Speaker 2: that investment loan as a principal and interest loan. So
Speaker 2: even though my interest for payments may be fifty thousand
Speaker 2: dollars a year, I can still chip away at that
Speaker 2: lone you own, make them sixty thousand dollars a year,
Speaker 2: and start bringing that loan down. And that can be
Speaker 2: particularly valuable once your interest only loan terms and conditions
Speaker 2: have expired, because then the bank looks at it go
Speaker 2: will actually you've been behaving in a manner with your
Speaker 2: cash flow in that is actually principal interest. It's a
Speaker 2: very smooth transition.
Speaker 1: It sounds like it is a very good case for
Speaker 1: speaking to a mortgage broker.
Speaker 2: And not just a mortgage broker, an experienced mortgage broker.
Speaker 1: That's really important, Okay in terms of the overall picture
Speaker 1: of property investing. Now, what risks do you think people
Speaker 1: perhaps underestimate because I mean, for so many people, property
Speaker 1: is still the most tangible form of investment. Right. You
Speaker 1: can buy you can buy shares, right, but you're essentially
Speaker 1: owning something on paper, right. You invest in property. You
Speaker 1: can walk down the street and you can touch what
Speaker 1: you have put your hard earned money into. And so
Speaker 1: there is still this upties and to the ego, yeah
Speaker 1: it does, but also a form of security, yeah as well,
Speaker 1: because we can actually physically keep an eye on our investment.
Speaker 1: We can also buy what we know because we know
Speaker 1: certain streets or we know suburbs, and we know the
Speaker 1: banks that loan us the money for and all this
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. Right, But there's risks still here involved
Speaker 1: in it. Are there things that people underestimate? Do you think?
Speaker 2: I think there's a risk of being too tunnel visioned.
Speaker 2: You know, these negative gearing rules are just applying to
Speaker 2: residential property. You can still negatively geared commercial property, industrial property,
Speaker 2: rural property, so you know, you can very get caught
Speaker 2: up in this and think residential property residential property only.
Speaker 2: Of course, then there's the liquidity risk you know of property,
Speaker 2: as we all know, takes time to sell and it's
Speaker 2: very expensive. You've got to pay an illusted agent rather
Speaker 2: a large amount of commission. There's obviously the legal fees,
Speaker 2: bank fees. You know, it very quickly adds up. And
Speaker 2: you know it's if you aren't getting the price that
Speaker 2: you want, perhaps you thought it was worth more than
Speaker 2: what you originally estimated. That can be a bit of
Speaker 2: a root shock. You've got to hold out for that price.
Speaker 2: Well may not even get it at all. And you
Speaker 2: know there's the holding costs, which we touched on already.
Speaker 2: There are a lot of risks. You know, we probably
Speaker 2: here all day talking about the risks, and you know,
Speaker 2: being in between tenants, the you know, the wear and
Speaker 2: tear alone, even the special strata levies. You know, I shared,
Speaker 2: I think I've shared with you about what happened Tom
Speaker 2: and I and like I'm talking a significant six figure
Speaker 2: like and not a low six figure like like you'd
Speaker 2: kind of want to bomb it like, And it was
Speaker 2: exceptionally stressful and it still is actually exceptionally stuff because
Speaker 2: the problems are still going, you know, and the apartment
Speaker 2: was unlivable literally had to be deconstructed, like you know,
Speaker 2: and it's as I've said, you know, whenever I go
Speaker 2: for a walk around that area. There are so many
Speaker 2: apartment blocks going through. Now what we went through, scaffolding
Speaker 2: all the way through tenants. Everyone's had to move out
Speaker 2: of the building. You know, we saw what happen with
Speaker 2: that horrendous apartment block in home Bush. You know, you
Speaker 2: know people can say, you know, sell all the clothes.
Speaker 2: In fact, I remember someone saying to me, you should
Speaker 2: sell all the clothes off off your back and just
Speaker 2: just to get into property. It's the only way you
Speaker 2: can make money. That's not true, Like, there are lots
Speaker 2: of ways to make money. Property. Residential property is not
Speaker 2: the be all and end all, and hopefully the blessing
Speaker 2: in disguise behind this, not that I agree with the changes,
Speaker 2: but perhaps is to get people to start looking at
Speaker 2: other asset classes and maybe diversifying more.
Speaker 1: Okay, if someone does want to still explore property investing, though, yeah,
Speaker 1: what is the first step, and particularly with that passive
Speaker 1: income focus right looking towards the future.
Speaker 2: Well, obviously it's to start saving. But I think when
Speaker 2: you once you've started saving, you can actually see all right,
Speaker 2: I'm building, I'm getting there with my deposit. Go and
Speaker 2: speak to a mortgage broker. They will give you a
Speaker 2: really and a good mortgage broker. They will give you
Speaker 2: an idea as to what you can afford and what
Speaker 2: your budget is and what are the mortgage or payments
Speaker 2: going to look like. And you might get them and go,
Speaker 2: oh my good, and there's no way I want that's
Speaker 2: that responsibility or that's going to dent my cash flow
Speaker 2: too much, or I can't maintain any type of lifestyle
Speaker 2: with that responsibility. Having that's really important because then you go, okay,
Speaker 2: I need to either save more or I need to
Speaker 2: you know, maybe the goal of buying property to delay
Speaker 2: it or extend it a little bit. So that's really important.
Speaker 2: Then of course doing your research. You make so much
Speaker 2: of your money when you buy, particularly with property, you know,
Speaker 2: because if you can buy well, of course, then that
Speaker 2: growth there is going to be a lot sooner for you.
Speaker 2: So getting to know the real estate agents in the
Speaker 2: area that you want to buy, asking them, you know,
Speaker 2: particularly this is for an investment purpose, ask them what
Speaker 2: a rent is wanting. Do they want a bathtub because
Speaker 2: a lot of young families you know, are renting these
Speaker 2: types of properties, or is a lot of sort of
Speaker 2: elderly people that want say a level floor, no steps,
Speaker 2: or they need the importance of a lift. If you're
Speaker 2: going to be buying property, residential property, you've got to
Speaker 2: think of it as a business. You know, yes, you're
Speaker 2: an investor, but this is also a business. You're creating
Speaker 2: a product, a product to house people. So what do
Speaker 2: my dream tenants look like? What do they want? Because
Speaker 2: if you can create something that's in demand, obviously that's
Speaker 2: going to mean that the property is rented out on
Speaker 2: a regular basis. You've got strong rentals coming in. Obviously
Speaker 2: you can put the rent out when appropriate, of course,
Speaker 2: and you know it's going to obviously increase in value
Speaker 2: and you'll get a good quality tendant in there that
Speaker 2: takes care of the property for you. So understanding in
Speaker 2: the demographics is really important.
Speaker 1: We could do a whole series on property investing and
Speaker 1: investing more broadly, and maybe look, we should the point
Speaker 1: that you made about this encouraging people to look at
Speaker 1: other asset classes. It's given me some ideas for future
Speaker 1: episodes that I think into in a little bit more detail.
Speaker 1: All Right, If people want more information from you, where
Speaker 1: do we find you?
Speaker 2: I always feel free to reach out to me at Instagram,
Speaker 2: at sugar Mama TV or Canna Campbell Official.
Speaker 1: And you can hear me every day with Sean Aylmer
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