Speaker 1: Doctor Bill, welcome back to the You Project, my friend.
Speaker 2: How you doing, Craig, It's good to be back.
Speaker 1: We always love chatting with you. We won't go too
Speaker 1: far down the rabbit hole like we did a minute ago,
Speaker 1: but we'll just I think I have to acknowledge that.
Speaker 1: And of course everyone doctor Bill lives in the States.
Speaker 1: It's it's we'll just go with It's interesting times over there.
Speaker 2: Interesting is a good word, Yeah, well I would, I would,
Speaker 2: I would use bizarre world or chaos, but interesting it
Speaker 2: is a nice way to put it. Is there?
Speaker 1: What is them? I mean, I'm sure there's Let's do
Speaker 1: two minutes on this because I'm sure, especially my Australian
Speaker 1: listeners wouldn't mind an insight from somebody who's living in
Speaker 1: the middle of I don't know, I don't know what
Speaker 1: I was going to say, chaos, but you're probably not
Speaker 1: directly in the chaos, but kind of what's the most
Speaker 1: when you say bizarro world, what's the most bizarre to
Speaker 1: you just as a being in the middle or as
Speaker 1: an observer of it, But what just kind of blows
Speaker 1: your mind that's happening right now?
Speaker 2: Well, I still can't get my head wrapped around the
Speaker 2: fact that seventy million people in this country felt comfortable
Speaker 2: putting a convicted felon who has a horrible track record
Speaker 2: of fraud and you know, malevolence and just abject cruelty
Speaker 2: into the office of the president, not to mention his
Speaker 2: you know, colossally poor intellect and judgment that is demonstrable.
Speaker 2: I mean, you can just investigate his history for this.
Speaker 2: You know, he lives in a different universe and it's
Speaker 2: not reality, it's not evidence based, and it's taking this
Speaker 2: country right off a cliff to a point, a lawyer
Speaker 2: who is utterly unqualified to lead you know, human health
Speaker 2: services over here, which controls like our vaccine schedule and
Speaker 2: a whole slew of other really critical health decisions, is
Speaker 2: just beyond the point of absurdity. I feel like I'm
Speaker 2: living in some kind of towilight zone. I mean, a
Speaker 2: responsible leader just does not appoint these outrageously unqualified and
Speaker 2: downright dangerous people into positions of power like that He's
Speaker 2: going to get people killed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, it's from us. I mean, we just see.
Speaker 1: I think every country in the world is somewhat obsessed
Speaker 1: with America, and Australia is no different. I mean, if
Speaker 1: we're not talking about us, we're talking about you as
Speaker 1: he's probably everyone. But from the outside looking in, it's
Speaker 1: I don't even know why, but even people in Australia
Speaker 1: are like a bit scared. Some people a bit like
Speaker 1: are the world's the world spinning out of control? And
Speaker 1: you know, there's always been a bit of like background
Speaker 1: stuff going on and a bit of this sense, and
Speaker 1: you know, the outbreak here there, or a minor war
Speaker 1: over here, not that there's such a thing as a
Speaker 1: minor war, but you know what I mean is and
Speaker 1: but right now it just seems like the volume has
Speaker 1: been turned up on all the craziness like in the States,
Speaker 1: but everywhere.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it certainly seems that way, and I think that's
Speaker 2: by design. Like I said, every day there's multiple things
Speaker 2: happening that just don't make any sense or we're so outrageous,
Speaker 2: you know, you can't believe someone just said that or
Speaker 2: someone just did that, and there's no one saying anything
Speaker 2: to like normalize or get people back to what used
Speaker 2: to be normal. It just seems like we're going more
Speaker 2: and more closer to the edge. And yeah, I share
Speaker 2: your concern about that. It's not a comfortable feeling. So yeah,
Speaker 2: it's it's pretty crazy times.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's a challenge. It's a challenge for everyone.
Speaker 1: And it's even in Australia. It's not that, but it's.
Speaker 1: Australia is an interesting place right now. You may or
Speaker 1: may not know this, but we have the dearest real
Speaker 1: estate in the world. Like it's it's like in Melbourne
Speaker 1: where I live, to buy a property for the average
Speaker 1: young person, the average young couple that are twenty five,
Speaker 1: thirty thirty five, that just got married, whatever. For the
Speaker 1: average people, they'll never own a home outright. But you
Speaker 1: just can't, like a very in Melbourne. An average not
Speaker 1: a good, not a you know, I don't mean not good,
Speaker 1: but not nothing. Fancy you run in the mill three bedroom,
Speaker 1: one or two bathroom, maybe thirty forty fifty year old
Speaker 1: house is going to cost you one to one point
Speaker 1: five million dollars.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's just insane.
Speaker 1: Is that crazy?
Speaker 2: Is that causing a lot more people to rent instead
Speaker 2: of buying a home?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not good and that people can't save money
Speaker 2: that way.
Speaker 1: Where I live, which is not I mean, it's nice,
Speaker 1: but it's not you know, there are some fancy areas.
Speaker 1: But down the road from literally five hundred meters from me,
Speaker 1: they've just built this new apartment complex. We'll get off
Speaker 1: this in a minute, because we just sound like those
Speaker 1: two old guys in the Muppets up in the bloody
Speaker 1: you know stands.
Speaker 2: But everybody loves those two craigs. Keeps done.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's that's true. That's true. But just down
Speaker 1: the road from me, they've built these apartments and they
Speaker 1: start two bedroom apartments. There's two and three, but the
Speaker 1: cheapest apartment you can buy is two bedroom, and it
Speaker 1: says it kicks off at between one and three and
Speaker 1: one point four million dollars. These are the starting prices
Speaker 1: for a two bedroom apartment, which is you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know, probably eight squares or something like that, ten
Speaker 1: squares maybe, which is like a thousand square feet, you know,
Speaker 1: give or take. I mean, yeah, it's crazy, and it's
Speaker 1: I think, I don't know, it's an interesting time for
Speaker 1: the specie. It's like it's an interesting time for humanity.
Speaker 1: Like I'm wondering, one if we're going to be here
Speaker 1: in a hundred years, I don't know, and two if
Speaker 1: we are as a species here in one hundred years
Speaker 1: what they're going to be saying about this time in history, you.
Speaker 2: Know, right right, Well, yeah, I don't think it's going
Speaker 2: to be anything good. I think there's going to be
Speaker 2: a lot of what the hell were they thinking? Well,
Speaker 2: you know, why were they being so stupid and ignoring
Speaker 2: you know what scientists and experts are saying about the world,
Speaker 2: you know, the dangers that are in front of us,
Speaker 2: and then just totally dismissing experts for for charlatans and
Speaker 2: you know, conspiracy theorists. It's just really difficult in this
Speaker 2: modern day and age to see this kind of medieval
Speaker 2: logic resurfacing. You know, it's just kind of it's downright scary,
Speaker 2: and if we don't get a handle on it, it could
Speaker 2: really spell disaster, a lot of suffering and death, very unnecessary.
Speaker 2: What scares me the most is the increasing inequality, and
Speaker 2: this is happening in all countries, where the very few
Speaker 2: people who are just ridiculously wealthy are going to get
Speaker 2: even wealthier at the expense of people who are trying
Speaker 2: to climb out of poverty or just hold their own
Speaker 2: in the middle class. I've studied quite a bit of
Speaker 2: history on this topic. And every civilization just prior to
Speaker 2: falling experience gross inequality that seemed to be one of
Speaker 2: the key factors that was a telltale sign of societal collapse.
Speaker 2: And it's getting worse every day. So we really need
Speaker 2: to rein in this inequality that exists throughout the world
Speaker 2: and getting rid of these billionaires. Millionaires should not exist
Speaker 2: when we still have people who are starving in this world.
Speaker 2: It's just such a gross, you know, distribution of the
Speaker 2: world's resources, and it just cannot be sustained.
Speaker 1: It must frustrate you as I mean, you're a proper scientist.
Speaker 1: I'm not. I'm a summer pretend one. But it like
Speaker 1: even for me on social media and people speaking out
Speaker 1: about stuff, so I kind of inhabit more the psychology
Speaker 1: or the more biology physiology. But when people come out
Speaker 1: and they're saying essentially pop psychology bullshitty, you know, misleading
Speaker 1: things about whatever about psychology or human behavior or the mind,
Speaker 1: or they're trying to you know, they're talking about something significant,
Speaker 1: like you know, trauma or grief or and you know,
Speaker 1: some three step solution, and I roll my eyes. But
Speaker 1: the truth is that a lot of people don't know
Speaker 1: the difference between basically an Instagram post and science or
Speaker 1: research or something that's you know, even people who so
Speaker 1: my other degree, as you know, is XI science. But
Speaker 1: people who will bring to me their supplements or their
Speaker 1: you know, a food product and they'll, you know, because
Speaker 1: it's got some tick or some star on the front,
Speaker 1: this is good, right, And I'm like, no, let's turn
Speaker 1: around and let's look at the back where the actual
Speaker 1: information is. And I have to say to people, so,
Speaker 1: what's on the front. This is not information. This is
Speaker 1: a sales pitch to get you to pick it up
Speaker 1: and buy it, right, That's not that's not information. The
Speaker 1: information that they don't want you to see is around here.
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is in the state it's
Speaker 1: been in Australia. It's in the tiniest font that you
Speaker 1: can't read in the bottom right hand or left hand corner.
Speaker 1: That they try to make this thing as obscure as
Speaker 1: possible because they don't want people to read it or
Speaker 1: understand it or know what they're actually putting in their body.
Speaker 1: I feel like that's going on a lot, and not
Speaker 1: with just nutritional psychology or exercise, but across the board,
Speaker 1: a version of that deception.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's and that's that's really where it's at.
Speaker 2: It's a deception. And people who market and you know,
Speaker 2: profit from this stuff, they're the real villains. It's really
Speaker 2: easy to blame people for not thinking or critically evaluating
Speaker 2: things because we have a lot of trust in the society.
Speaker 2: That's the way we're supposed to be functioning. But there's
Speaker 2: a lot of cheaters, and one of the roles of
Speaker 2: government is to neutralize these cheaters. So the real problem
Speaker 2: comes back full circle to where we began this conversation, Craig,
Speaker 2: is when you put cheaters into government, you really are
Speaker 2: setting society up for an absolute disaster. And that's what
Speaker 2: we've done in this country.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know whether to make one maniac
Speaker 1: steering this sheep.
Speaker 2: Never is a good idea as a leader in politics,
Speaker 2: in business, or in academia. It's just bad news any
Speaker 2: which way you try to slice it.
Speaker 1: M Well, speaking of bad news, Uh, speaking of bad news,
Speaker 1: what about this article that you wrote, A common parasite
Speaker 1: can decapitate human sperm with implications? Well, male fertility and
Speaker 1: sperm count has been plumbing for decades, hasn't it, And
Speaker 1: so give us a synopsis of the article that you wrote,
Speaker 1: if you would doc.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, before we I'm going to get right into that,
Speaker 2: but I'm going to frame this as good news because
Speaker 2: we've learned something here. You know, these studies are telling
Speaker 2: us something important and there's things we can do to
Speaker 2: prevent getting this infection. So we're going to spin this as, hey,
Speaker 2: this is remarkable finding, disturbing, but remarkable, and now we
Speaker 2: know what to do.
Speaker 1: And that's why you're the that's why you're the professor,
Speaker 1: and I'm the student.
Speaker 2: That's well, you're getting your PhD sudents so you can
Speaker 2: take me to school. But it also underscores you know,
Speaker 2: you say, we went down a rabbit hole with our
Speaker 2: little discussion, but it's really important and people in the
Speaker 2: States and other places in the world need to realize
Speaker 2: how important funding of basic science research is. It's what
Speaker 2: produces results like the one we're going to talk about today,
Speaker 2: so that society can take action to protect themselves from
Speaker 2: potential danger. The administration we have in the States has
Speaker 2: proposed it hasn't passed yet, but they propose to slash
Speaker 2: biomedical research funding. This is the funding that allows me
Speaker 2: to go to work and do experiments. They want to
Speaker 2: cut it forty four percent so they can have more
Speaker 2: money to feed these billionaires, you know, and this is
Speaker 2: just devastating to everybody. So I can say that from
Speaker 2: a very selfish angle. It's going to hurt me in
Speaker 2: my lab. I might have to fire students or postdocs
Speaker 2: as a result of this, Okay if it passes, and
Speaker 2: that's just heartbreaking to me. But think about, you know,
Speaker 2: the things that many scientific labs in the States are
Speaker 2: going to produce over the next couple of years. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, all sorts of wonderful things that could advance
Speaker 2: treatments towards everything from Alzheimer's to zecravirus and everything in between.
Speaker 2: And that's just not going to happen if the budget
Speaker 2: gets slashed almost fifty percent. It's just insanity. And it's
Speaker 2: even further insanity when you look at the money that
Speaker 2: science gets. It actually produces almost a three percent profit
Speaker 2: of economic activity in return. I mean, if you're going
Speaker 2: to invest your government dollars in something, scientific research is
Speaker 2: the most economically viable choice. So that's my soapbox. I'll
Speaker 2: get off it for now.
Speaker 1: No, I love it.
Speaker 2: Well, might get into we'll get into the study. That
Speaker 2: underscores how important it is that scientists are in their
Speaker 2: labs and working on problems like this common parasite, which
Speaker 2: we have talked about before. But for those of you
Speaker 2: you know, who haven't heard of Tosoplasma GANDHII, this is
Speaker 2: a parasite that's infected anywhere from thirty to fifty percent
Speaker 2: of the world's population. That's a huge number of people.
Speaker 2: We're talking billions now. Doesn't make people sick, you know,
Speaker 2: unless you're severely immune compromised, but it stays with you
Speaker 2: for life, gets into your brains as a cyst, gets
Speaker 2: into your heart and scale to muscle. And what this
Speaker 2: study that you alluded to, Craig, has just shown is
Speaker 2: that it can get into male testicles and possibly be
Speaker 2: affecting male fertility, which, as you said, over the past
Speaker 2: decades has just nosedived and scientists have absolutely no idea why.
Speaker 2: And to put that problem into perspective, here's one of
Speaker 2: the statistics. Male infertility rates have increased nearly eighty percent
Speaker 2: from nineteen ninety to twenty nineteen. Now that's crazy, and
Speaker 2: you know that is something that should alarm everyone, and
Speaker 2: it's something that scientists have really got to investigate more
Speaker 2: rigorously because we have no idea what the hell's going on?
Speaker 1: What about I know not much about this, well next
Speaker 1: to nothing, But I heard somebody talking about a correlation
Speaker 1: between plastics and thallites, you know, and all of the
Speaker 1: leeching from plastic into foods and into water bottles and
Speaker 1: into things that we cook in, and that in part
Speaker 1: having an impact on you know, testosterone levels and fertility
Speaker 1: and sperm count and all of those things. Is that
Speaker 1: anything in.
Speaker 2: That, Yeah, there's a lot of evidence to that effect.
Speaker 2: What you're referring to are so called endocrine disruptors, and
Speaker 2: these are chemicals that can get into our bodies and
Speaker 2: they're so called forever chemicals, so once they get out
Speaker 2: into the environment, they're very slow to break down, so
Speaker 2: they're kind of out there for good. And you know,
Speaker 2: they get into our tissues and disrupt our hormones, and
Speaker 2: that can clearly have an effect on fertility, and in
Speaker 2: some cases it seems to be heritable, you know, so
Speaker 2: if you do have a child, the next generation seems
Speaker 2: to be disadvantaged with respect to propagating the species. It's
Speaker 2: pretty scary. But some of the other more common culprits
Speaker 2: are obesity, poor diet, like malnutrition. You know, people eat
Speaker 2: a lot of calories, but they're not necessarily getting the
Speaker 2: nutrients they need. That can affect fertility for sure for
Speaker 2: men and women. And then of course environmental toxins, which
Speaker 2: includes the chemicals that you are talking about and a
Speaker 2: whole slew of other ones. You know, there's so many
Speaker 2: candidates out there that could be potentially hurting fertility. It's
Speaker 2: really hard to, uh, you know, pinpoint which one or
Speaker 2: which group is doing the most damage. And of course
Speaker 2: it could be a combination of all these things. Microplastics
Speaker 2: is coming into the picture now as another potential danger,
Speaker 2: but what gets underappreciated are infectious diseases. They could also
Speaker 2: be contributing to this problem, probably not to the same
Speaker 2: extent as some environmental toxin or you know, bad health. Yes,
Speaker 2: but I don't think it can be ignored, especially after
Speaker 2: we go over some of the results you know of
Speaker 2: this paper and studies that led up to it. But
Speaker 2: infectious diseases like toxoplasma, which like microplastics, kind of get
Speaker 2: in us and stay with us for life, but also
Speaker 2: kind of rita and chlamydia. These are sexually transmitted diseases
Speaker 2: that have a clear role in decreasing fertility or damaging fertility,
Speaker 2: and they're just not emphasized enough part of the equation
Speaker 2: and they just need to be talked about more.
Speaker 1: Is before we jump into the specifics of your article.
Speaker 1: If you've got a cat, everyone get rid of it.
Speaker 2: We don't want to do that. I'll be here to
Speaker 2: give you some guidelines on how to safely maintain a cat.
Speaker 1: All right, what about important?
Speaker 2: Why you said that? You know, we do have to
Speaker 2: talk about why you said that.
Speaker 1: We'll definitely talk about why I said that. But my
Speaker 1: last one before I get out of your why is
Speaker 1: is it would seem to me, I don't know if
Speaker 1: we just talk about it more or there's a higher
Speaker 1: incidence of people who don't seem to sleep well people
Speaker 1: there seems to be maybe there's just more awareness, but
Speaker 1: I think there's a high prevalence of anxiety and stress
Speaker 1: and mental health issues. I would think that would be
Speaker 1: that would have an impact on the endo crime system
Speaker 1: as well, like poor sleep, inadequate sleep, you know, chronically
Speaker 1: over time, so those things also would have a negative
Speaker 1: correlation peraps.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no question about it. I think they're all interrelated,
Speaker 2: you know, to an extent. I mean, if you just
Speaker 2: look at like poor diet and lack of exercise, that's
Speaker 2: going to snowball into a lot of other risk factors
Speaker 2: like obesity, some of the chemicals and ultraposit processed food.
Speaker 2: And you know, without exercise, you don't you know where
Speaker 2: the body out enough to get a good night sleep.
Speaker 2: That can also be detrimental. So yeah, it all kind
Speaker 2: of relates and snowballs together.
Speaker 1: All right, So toxoplasma gone, y'all are the suspect in
Speaker 1: the middle of all of this, all right? The focus
Speaker 1: of today's.
Speaker 2: Chat, a potentially new contributor to the male infertility problem
Speaker 2: is what this new study that came out in April
Speaker 2: is suggesting. And we do want to take it with
Speaker 2: a grain of salt. You know, it's still very preliminary research,
Speaker 2: but it's intriguing enough to warrant discussion and in my mind,
Speaker 2: much larger serious studies to see if there's some truth
Speaker 2: to toxoplasma possibly contributing to the male infertility problem. So
Speaker 2: a little bit about toxoplasma first, just as a quick
Speaker 2: review for people who don't listen to me being on
Speaker 2: your podcast in the past, which they should go do.
Speaker 2: Toxoplasma is transmitted in a number of ways, and that's
Speaker 2: why it is so predominant throughout the human species. Like
Speaker 2: we said, billions of people are infected because there's three
Speaker 2: major routes of infection, the first of which is the cat.
Speaker 2: So cats are the only organism where the parasite undergoes
Speaker 2: its sexual stages. So when cats go to the bathroom,
Speaker 2: they're releasing parasite eggs into the litter box, the sandbox,
Speaker 2: or the environment, so they can contaminate the food and
Speaker 2: water chain when they're infected with this parasite, and cat
Speaker 2: owners can become infected if they don't promptly clean their
Speaker 2: litter box and wash their hands very thoroughly afterwards. Kids
Speaker 2: playing in the yard or sandbox can pick it up,
Speaker 2: you know, people who garden can pick it up if
Speaker 2: a cat's been in the garden unwashed. Fruits and vegetables
Speaker 2: are a source of these parasite eggs, and these eggs,
Speaker 2: once they're released into the environment are stable for one
Speaker 2: to two years, so they don't go away quickly. They
Speaker 2: also contaminate water, so filter feeders like shellfish, clams, and oysters.
Speaker 2: They will trap these oasis into the tissues that people eat.
Speaker 2: So if you eat raw shellfish, you're basically inoculating yourself
Speaker 2: with this huge dose of toxoplasma. Eggs not a good idea.
Speaker 2: So that's just from the cat. Any animal gets infected,
Speaker 2: and like I said before, the parasite insists in brain, heart,
Speaker 2: muscle tissue. So if we have raw or undercooked meat
Speaker 2: almost any animal, pork, lamb, venison, steak, there's a chance
Speaker 2: that toxoplasma could infect you that way if you don't
Speaker 2: properly cook that animal. And then there's a really tragic
Speaker 2: rout of transmission congenital transmission. This is mother to child.
Speaker 2: So the reason why doctors tell people while they're pregnant
Speaker 2: not to change the litter box is because of talk plasma.
Speaker 2: If a woman becomes infected for the first time during
Speaker 2: her pregnancy, that can lead to miscarriage or congenital birth defects,
Speaker 2: and those can be quite devastating. Vision impairment, cognitive defects, defects,
Speaker 2: and motor skills. It really runs the gamut. So three
Speaker 2: major routes of transmission make toxoplasma a really common parasite.
Speaker 2: And then on top of all of that, there's no
Speaker 2: way to cure it. We can't get this parasite out
Speaker 2: of our brains or out of our bodies. We can
Speaker 2: control acute episodes of infection, so if the parasite reactivates
Speaker 2: and starts causing brain damage or heart damage, there are
Speaker 2: medications that people can take that will put the parasite
Speaker 2: into remission. You know, those can be life saving drugs. Unfortunately, though,
Speaker 2: they don't get rid of the parasite, they just put
Speaker 2: it into remission. So when we're talking about this fertility problem,
Speaker 2: you know, toxoplasma can get into men and one of
Speaker 2: the areas that this parasite likes to go to, and
Speaker 2: this has been confirmed not only in humans, but in
Speaker 2: rodent models like mice and rats as well as a
Speaker 2: few other species. This parasite goes to the testes within
Speaker 2: two days of infection, so it's really remarkable to be
Speaker 2: aware of that. So that's not good news. You know,
Speaker 2: if you're a guy and have these parasites that just
Speaker 2: kind of stay in your balls for the rest of
Speaker 2: your life, you know, it's not a good situation. And
Speaker 2: it raises the question if this parasite can invade male
Speaker 2: reproductive organs. Does it have an effect on fertility? Could
Speaker 2: it be contributing to this massive decline that we are
Speaker 2: seeing in male infertility. So that's what this news that
Speaker 2: he tried to address. But it was but it was
Speaker 2: it didn't, you know, just come out of the ether
Speaker 2: all of a sudden. There have been other studies done
Speaker 2: suggestive that toxoplasma could have some effect on fertility. So
Speaker 2: in one of the studies my own lab did, in
Speaker 2: collaboration with a few of my buddies at Indiana University
Speaker 2: School of Medicine, we found for the first time that
Speaker 2: toxoplasma can insist in the prostate too, So you have
Speaker 2: these parasite cysts sitting in the prostate and it actually
Speaker 2: induces a sustained inflammatory response. So inflammation of the prostate
Speaker 2: is one of the precursors to prostate cancer. So again
Speaker 2: this is not good news either. I wanted to call
Speaker 2: that paper great balls of Fire, but wouldn't let me
Speaker 2: do it. It was, you know, this parasite's called inflammation
Speaker 2: in the prostate. But you know, and that was in
Speaker 2: just twenty seventeen, So these are really new discoveries. Craig
Speaker 2: and a lot more work needs to be done, but
Speaker 2: I think there's enough data in place right now that
Speaker 2: says we've got to look at this problem a lot
Speaker 2: more seriously and give it a lot more attention. We
Speaker 2: certainly don't want to defund science up to fifty percent
Speaker 2: at this point. But toxo has been found, you know,
Speaker 2: in the semen of a variety of animals, including humans,
Speaker 2: so you know it's in the ejaculate, which raises another
Speaker 2: rather terrifying question. Is toxoplasma sexually transmitted? We don't have
Speaker 2: an answer for that, but the possibility is there. Perhaps
Speaker 2: during acute episodes they don't last too long, but during
Speaker 2: that window there is a possibility with toxoplasma being present
Speaker 2: in semen, it could be sexually admit it, you know,
Speaker 2: another another reason to engage in safe sex. So yeah, yes, sorry,
Speaker 2: go ahead and rambling.
Speaker 1: Go on here, I'm just trying to Yeah, I'm not
Speaker 1: terrified at all. Now, thanks for all of that. Back
Speaker 1: in the therapy for harps.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm here for.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no good, just to come and terrorize me in
Speaker 1: the masses. Okay, so a couple of things. I don't
Speaker 1: even know what questions to ask, but here's one. So
Speaker 1: thirty to fifty percent of people listening to their show
Speaker 1: statistically have got toxoplasma gondie. So right, statistically, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: In Australia, I believe the numbers hover around twenty five
Speaker 2: to thirty percent.
Speaker 1: Okay, And I mean you may or may not know
Speaker 1: the answer to this, but of the you know, if
Speaker 1: we get ten people who have got it, how many
Speaker 1: of them will ever show any symptoms or or be
Speaker 1: you know, detrimentally affected, like there's some physical problem that
Speaker 1: is because of that.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, that's a great question. And it depends
Speaker 2: if they were congenitally infected, which means they acquired it
Speaker 2: during birth. Yeah, those individuals tend to have problems throughout
Speaker 2: the rest of their lives. The parasite reactivates from time
Speaker 2: to time, and every time it does so, it does
Speaker 2: brain damage, it does eye damage, It can inflame the heart.
Speaker 2: Who knows, it might be damaging male reproductive organs as well,
Speaker 2: based on what we've been learning very recently.
Speaker 1: So and when people have episodes where things get in
Speaker 1: like what's the treatment, Like what do they.
Speaker 2: Do when you have an acute case of toxoplasmosis? There
Speaker 2: are drugs called antifolates that the person can take and
Speaker 2: they get the parasite under control fairly quickly, they'll stop
Speaker 2: it from growing, and they'll retreat back into these insistent forms. Now, unfortunately,
Speaker 2: the antifolates and no other drug that we know of
Speaker 2: can get rid of the inc form. So that's the
Speaker 2: obstacle to treatment.
Speaker 1: I love this. So twenty twenty five study exposed human
Speaker 1: sperm to T. Goondii in vitro. Twenty two point four
Speaker 1: percent of sperm lose their heads, that is, and then
Speaker 1: it says in brackets that is decapitated in just five minutes. Well,
Speaker 1: do we have to bring the word decapitated? So that's
Speaker 1: in vitro? Is that also representative in vivo? Like, is
Speaker 1: that that happen you know, out of the lab as well?
Speaker 1: Or we're not sure?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that that's that's something that needs to be followed up.
Speaker 2: But there is evidence that animals that are infected with
Speaker 2: toxoplasma have deformed sperm. Wow, up until the new study
Speaker 2: that you just mentioned, all of this was done in
Speaker 2: other species. Okay, However, there were a couple studies that
Speaker 2: were really interesting here that kind of led the group
Speaker 2: to look at this question. There was a small two
Speaker 2: thousand and five study that was done in China and
Speaker 2: it found that sterile men are more likely to test
Speaker 2: positive for toxoplasma than fertile men. So interesting correlation, but
Speaker 2: a small study. There was another small study done in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one in Czechoslovakia. Just about one hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty men or so, all of them were infected with
Speaker 2: toxoplasma and they looked at their semen, they looked at
Speaker 2: their sperm, and eighty six percent of them had defects
Speaker 2: in their sperm. Now there's there's not a direct test there.
Speaker 2: That's what the new study addresses. You know, the study
Speaker 2: that was just done that that I just mentioned in
Speaker 2: Czechoslovakia showed a correlation, didn't show that toxoplasma was responsible
Speaker 2: for those defects in the sperm. So that's where this
Speaker 2: new study came into play. And that's the new factor
Speaker 2: that it contributed. It said, all right, well, let's just
Speaker 2: cut to the chase. Let's take some toxoplasma parasites, mix
Speaker 2: them with some live human sperm in a test tube
Speaker 2: and see what happens. You know, maybe the parasites don't
Speaker 2: do anything to the sperm. But that wasn't true. Like
Speaker 2: you said, almost a quarter of the sperm lost their heads,
Speaker 2: so they're dead. You know that sperm would be dead.
Speaker 2: That's not a reversible feature. But if you go to
Speaker 2: the article that I wrote, you'll see some really awful
Speaker 2: pictures of what these parasites have done to the sperm.
Speaker 2: You will see if the sperm manages to keep its
Speaker 2: head okay, it'll usually have a hole in it where
Speaker 2: the parasite tried to invade that sperm cell okay, and
Speaker 2: then just left this gaping hole in the sperm head.
Speaker 2: That can't be good.
Speaker 1: The tails, I'm nice, sperm ex I'm nice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that can't be good. The tails of the sperm,
Speaker 2: which are critical for the sperm being able to move
Speaker 2: and get to the egg. They're all bent out of shape,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of looping back around. They look like
Speaker 2: they're almost snapped in places. The parasite's doing some really
Speaker 2: serious damage to both the head and the tail of
Speaker 2: these sperms. So it's not unreasonable to question, once you
Speaker 2: see the devastation as parasite can inflict on sperm, that
Speaker 2: it's going to lead to troubles in fertility. To what degree, Well,
Speaker 2: that still remains to be answered. You know, we don't
Speaker 2: know this. Sometimes maybe a misshape and sperm can still
Speaker 2: get to the egg and it's not a problem. But
Speaker 2: that is a question that needs to be more closely
Speaker 2: looked at. And we also don't know, like you said,
Speaker 2: in vivo in the body, can toxoplasma parasites gain access
Speaker 2: to sperm cells to do the type of damage that
Speaker 2: we saw in the test tube. That's really hard to address.
Speaker 2: But we do know for a fact that toxoplasma can
Speaker 2: invade the testes. It can get into the testicles, and
Speaker 2: the new study showed evidence that it also gets into
Speaker 2: a tube called the epididymous. This is where sperm cells
Speaker 2: mature and get stored. So if toxoplasma can get access
Speaker 2: to that tube, it could come in direct contact with sperm. Now,
Speaker 2: something we want to get across so that people aren't
Speaker 2: freaking out here, is that toxoplasma is not in its
Speaker 2: active state, you know, for very long. You know, if
Speaker 2: people become infected, you're usually you know, you usually can't
Speaker 2: even tell, you don't get a lot of symptoms. But
Speaker 2: the parasite develops into its cyst form very quickly, so
Speaker 2: there's not free parasites floating around in your body all
Speaker 2: the time. It would probably be limited to seven to
Speaker 2: fourteen days maximum where you might have free parasites in
Speaker 2: your body before they're all in the insisted stage. So
Speaker 2: it's hard to believe that once they're in the late
Speaker 2: and CIS stage that a lot of this sperm damage
Speaker 2: could be happening. But like I said before, we did
Speaker 2: show that at least in the prostate, even in its
Speaker 2: insistent form, there's a sustained low level of inflammation in
Speaker 2: these organs, and inflammation in male reproductive organs has been
Speaker 2: linked to infertility as well, So that's another mechanism by
Speaker 2: which toxoplasma could be adversely affecting fertility, not coming into
Speaker 2: contact with sperm directly, but just by inducing inflammation down
Speaker 2: in the gonad region.
Speaker 1: Oh, this is just ruined my hall day. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm going to be able to think.
Speaker 1: I have to kind of have a lie down and
Speaker 1: kill the cat. No, I'm not everyone, I'm joking everyone.
Speaker 1: I don't have a cat. If I did, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: kill it. I wonder if there's like a a toxoplasma
Speaker 1: dose threshold needed to harm sperm because it's got maybe
Speaker 1: under a certain point it doesn't do damage. But I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't even know if that makes sense.
Speaker 2: But that makes that makes perfect sense. That's one of
Speaker 2: the variables that needs to be tested in a future
Speaker 2: study because at the moment, you know, how do you
Speaker 2: know that the number of parasites that you put into
Speaker 2: that test tube with the sperm is anything close to
Speaker 2: what actually happens in the body. That's an unanswered question.
Speaker 2: We don't know that this is an artificial setup, right,
Speaker 2: and it's just to assess. It's to just answer the question,
Speaker 2: Ken toxoplasma damaged sperm, does it do it in the body? Maybe?
Speaker 1: Okay, So managing catlet a personal hygiene, washing fruit and veggies, produce,
Speaker 1: cooking meat, thoroughly avoiding raw shellfish, shout out to the
Speaker 1: shellfish eaters, and obviously just good hygiene in general. Are
Speaker 1: they that? Are they that kind of preventative pieces of advice?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you said that just as well as I do.
Speaker 2: You must have heard about toxoplasma before from somebody who
Speaker 2: could that.
Speaker 1: Or I might have notes on an article that you wrote.
Speaker 1: So I will I will take none of your praise.
Speaker 1: I just I just read what you wrote. And but
Speaker 1: also I mean, and I know telling someone not to
Speaker 1: worry doesn't stop anyone from worrying. But I mean, this
Speaker 1: is something that's been around. It's prevalent anyway, you know,
Speaker 1: half an hour earlier than right now, our audience, so
Speaker 1: many of them didn't know about it. So it's nothing
Speaker 1: to panic about, but just rather something to be aware of.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, if you follow the simple steps that Craig
Speaker 2: just outlined, your chances of getting toxoplasma go way down,
Speaker 2: so you really don't have anything to worry about if
Speaker 2: you take those simple precautions, and you know, it's not
Speaker 2: much of a big ask, so you'll be fine. And
Speaker 2: there's other reasons why you don't want toxoplasma. You know,
Speaker 2: we already talked about congenital infection. But this parasite insists
Speaker 2: in your brain, and there's evidence that it could cause
Speaker 2: personality and behavioral changes. There's links to schizophrenia, links to
Speaker 2: rage disorder. It's just a bad parasite to have in
Speaker 2: your body, despite the fact that most people do. So
Speaker 2: we are trying to do our best with educational campaigns
Speaker 2: to minimize transmission of this parasite, and they do seem
Speaker 2: to be working in a lot of countries around the world.
Speaker 2: In the States, for example, toxoplasma zero prevalence used to
Speaker 2: be twenty five percent in the nineties and the two thousands,
Speaker 2: and the latest figures, now that more people know about it,
Speaker 2: show in the United States toxoplasma zero prevalence is down
Speaker 2: to about eleven percent, So you know these these educational
Speaker 2: campaigns work. France used to have a zero prevalence of
Speaker 2: ninety percent. Wow, isn't that crazy? Almost everybody in France
Speaker 2: used to be infected with this parasite, but the latest
Speaker 2: numbers show that's down to fifty percent. So we're making
Speaker 2: a lot of progress, not with new cures, but just
Speaker 2: with prevention.
Speaker 1: Perfect Now you can find that article. It is a
Speaker 1: really good article. It's on the Conversation and the website
Speaker 1: address is all one word, the conversation dot com and
Speaker 1: the name of the article is a common parasite that
Speaker 1: can decapitite human sperm with implications for male fertility, and
Speaker 1: that's written on May twenty eight, So go have a
Speaker 1: look at that. And also for some of you, obviously
Speaker 1: you might want to share this conversation perhaps with somebody
Speaker 1: who you think might find it interesting, if not a
Speaker 1: little terrifying, send it to them anyway. But also that
Speaker 1: article is on the conversation dot com. We appreciate you, Doc,
Speaker 1: It's always enlightening, a little bit scary, and a lot
Speaker 1: of fun to chat with.
Speaker 2: You well as always thanks for having me on, Craig
Speaker 2: It's great to be here.
Speaker 1: And before we go, if people want to find you,
Speaker 1: follow you, connect with you, read more of your work
Speaker 1: where and how can they do that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, they can simply go to my website Wwwauthor Bill
Speaker 2: Sullivan dot com.
Speaker 1: Perfect. Thanks Doc, see you next time.