1 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: Executions make good newspaper headlines, and you look through the 2 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: newspapers and the editorials really hype up for days beforehand, 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: you know, the execution of this vile fiends and the 4 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 1: gallows and Old Melbourne and stuff like that, and then 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 1: immediately the day after they'll talk about the appalling behavior 6 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: of the crowd at this execution that they just hyped up. 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,119 Speaker 2: I'm Jen Kelly from The Herald Son and this is 8 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 2: in Black and White, a podcast about some of Australia's 9 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 2: forgotten characters. Today we're back for part two of the 10 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 2: story of Jean Lee, the last woman executed in Australia, 11 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 2: with Damian Beard, a tour guide a Penridge Prison Tours. 12 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 2: Make sure you listen to part one first. As we 13 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 2: heard at the end of part one, Jean Lee confessed 14 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 2: to the murder of seventy three year old Pop Kent. 15 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 2: But was she guilty or did she confess to save 16 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 2: her lover. Let's jump back in to find out what 17 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 2: happened next, and then what happened at the trial. 18 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: They all changed their stories. Clayton said he wasn't in 19 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: his right mind. You sleep, deprivation and interrogation and Tan 20 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: Yellow like a dog and Jean, but she'd signed anything 21 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: to get some peace. Now, Andrew's is an interesting part 22 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: of this story because he remains quite silent at the 23 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: trial and the newspaper articles they really only focus on 24 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: Lee and Clayton, which sort of says to me that 25 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: they were the ones that were giving good copy, you know, 26 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 1: they were the ones that were speaking. 27 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 3: Out at the trial and stuff like that. And then 28 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 3: a later story. 29 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: Emerges, now I'm not one hundred percent sure where, because 30 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: I haven't found this in any of the media coverage 31 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: of the time, but that Jean did sign the confession 32 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: because she thought that if she signed, if she was 33 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: implicated in the murder, if she was the one that 34 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: actually committed the crime, well, if Clayton and Andrews were convicted 35 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: of the crime, it's murder at the time, that's a 36 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: death sentence and they'll hanged. But she believes that if 37 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: she signs, if she says, no, I am the one 38 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: that actually murdered Kent, well they'll be much more reluctant 39 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: to give a woman the death sentence. However, on the 40 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: morning of the Saturday, the twenty fifth of March nineteen fifty, 41 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: the jury retires for two and a half hours before 42 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: returning a verdict of guilty and the sentence of death 43 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: is pronounced on all of them. And there is quite 44 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: a wild scene in the courtroom as this happens. 45 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 2: And what was Jane's reaction? 46 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: So as the guilty verdict has pronounced, Jane collapse into 47 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: the arms of Clayton and she starts screaming I didn't 48 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: do it, over and over again. The judge, Justice Gavin 49 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,119 Speaker 1: Duffy then asks them if they have anything to say, 50 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,239 Speaker 1: is why the sentence of death should not be passed 51 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: on them? And Clayton he approaches the rail of the 52 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: dock and he mutters what I say could fill a book. 53 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 3: And then he turns to jury. 54 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: Then he says, you idiots, you team of idiots. Andrews, 55 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: remaining more stoic because he did throughout the trial, he 56 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: says not at this juncture. 57 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 3: No. 58 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: Then Clayton returns to the rail of the dock and 59 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: he says, may your next feed choky swine and spits 60 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: it them. Gavin Duffy, he says, I can only say 61 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: that the verdict is based on the strongest evidence and 62 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 1: that I thoroughly agree with the verdict and Clayton. He 63 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: finally gets one last shot in. He's like, why don't 64 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: you hang those lying swine Cura and those bastards talking 65 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: about the detectives. So again, this could be the words 66 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:31,959 Speaker 1: of a condemned man, you know, desperately trying to save 67 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: his neck, or it could be the words of someone 68 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: who experienced an interrogation where things didn't go the way 69 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: they ended up being reported. All three of them are 70 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: sent us to death. It's very unexpected. In the case 71 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: of Gene, the two men are quietly led from the court, 72 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: but Gene, she spent some time leaning on the shoulder 73 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: of her matron, which is what the female waters were 74 00:03:54,200 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: referred to, and sobbing. A Lodgen appeal, though, in a 75 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: two to three decision on the nineteenth of May nineteen fifty, 76 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: the Court of Criminal Appeal quashed all three convictions because 77 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: they said, HARKing back to what we've been talking about 78 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: for the last ten minutes, so that those confessions were 79 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: maintained by improper methods. Now, I'm not a lawyer, I'm 80 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: not one hundred percent sure what legal representation they were 81 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: entitled to at the time and things like that, but 82 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: you know, it's clear that they were put in situations 83 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: where they could not be of could have been argued 84 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: that they were not of sound mind and body, they 85 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: are drunk, they're sleep deprived, all that kind of thing. 86 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: And so the confessions were ruled invalid in a two 87 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: three High Court decision, and in particular they said that 88 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: Gene's confession should absolutely not have been entered into evidence 89 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: at the trial, and you know that Gavin Duffy should. 90 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 3: Not have allowed it. So they are granted a retrial. 91 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 2: They had to go through it all over again, so fresh. 92 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: Jury, fresh jury, fresh trial, And on Friday, the twenty 93 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: third of June nineteen fifty, the High Court reinstates the 94 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: convictions in the sentence were Yeah. 95 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 2: So, but a lot of people still believe that she 96 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 2: shouldn't hang because she was a woman. 97 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely so. 98 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: That it comes from several different circles. So, you know, 99 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: putting aside the debate about capital punishment and how we 100 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: believe about it today and whether you know, I'm sure 101 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: everyone else has their own opinions about it, I definitely do. 102 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: There needs to be this argument of whether this threshold 103 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: was crushed, you know, was it deliberate, was it premeditated? 104 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: Was it an accident, been the robbery gone wrong, all 105 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: those kinds of things, And was jan the one that 106 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: actually committed the act that killed Popkin? And if you 107 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 1: look at the coroner's report, the coroner at the time 108 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: said that the only way that he could have been 109 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 1: strangled to death, the hand that did the strangling could 110 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: have only been. 111 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 3: A man's hand. 112 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,679 Speaker 1: So there's that argument coming from more of this legal 113 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: technicality of this, that you know, should any of them 114 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: be sentenced to death because was it premeditated? But also 115 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: in Genie in particularly she didn't kill pop Yes, she 116 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: was part of the crime where this actually happened, but 117 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: she didn't commit the act herself. And then there was 118 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: also just coming from several sides, particularly like a labor 119 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: women's caucus and stuff like that, the idea of also 120 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: executing a woman. Now, no one had been hanged in 121 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: Victorious since nineteen forty two when Eddie Leonski was hanged, 122 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: and notably he was sent to death under American military law, 123 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 1: not Victorian state law. And so we're starting to see 124 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: a lot of rumblings against the death penalty as it is, 125 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: but especially being carried out on a woman. It's just 126 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: sort of starting to be seen this is absolutely something 127 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 1: that should not be done. 128 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 3: And that's not a new debate either. 129 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: Five women were executed in Victoria, and all of them 130 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 1: received agitation from some quarters that they should not be 131 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: hanged because of their sex. So all five of those women, 132 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: it's interesting because all five of them were seen to 133 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 1: have somehow betrayed their gender or their sex in some way. Now, 134 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: these women were poisoners of their family, they were baby farmers, 135 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: they were women who murdered their husbands, all kinds of 136 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: things like that, but they are all seen according to 137 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: the morals of the time of you know, and these 138 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: changed over time, but all seen as somehow failing in 139 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: their womanly duties and stuff like that. And this becomes 140 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: in particular with Gene and how she was an unmarried 141 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: single mother, not looking after her child and worst of 142 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:31,239 Speaker 1: all things, a sex worker. 143 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 2: So tell us more about that. What was the significance 144 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 2: of the fact that Jane was a sex worker. 145 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: So there's a concept that's sort of come about with 146 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: the rise of the things like true crime and stuff 147 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: like that, with this idea of the less dead, and 148 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: that is that marginalized people like sex workers, like itinerant. 149 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: You know, homeless people stuff like that somehow are less 150 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: dead than so called innocent people. 151 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 3: You know. 152 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: It's you see the cliche about how much press coverage 153 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: of a young white woman would get over the murderer 154 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: of a sex worker of a different ethnicity or something 155 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: like that, or a transperson. And I can absolutely see 156 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: this in placing here because Jane she turned to sex 157 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: work at certain points in her life, and that comes 158 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: to define her even as we talk about her today. 159 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: As you look her up on the internet, it's prostitute 160 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: Jean Lee. And now she wasn't just a sex worker, 161 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: she did all kinds of other work as well. I 162 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: find this quite an insane concept for really. I mean 163 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 1: I was talking with someone about this the other day 164 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: and I said, you know, I worked in a skate 165 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: shop for two weeks. You're going to advertise this podcast 166 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:47,959 Speaker 1: as skateboard shop employee. Damian Beard talks about Jean Lee. 167 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: But because these people they leave these so called risk 168 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: risky occupations, they somehow bear some kind of guilt and 169 00:08:55,480 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: responsibility for their own fates. And this makes it easier 170 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: for Gene to be seen as someone more deserving of punishment, 171 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: someone who has failed the obligations and expectations of her gender. 172 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 3: And you know, when I see. 173 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: People talk about her as a sex worker, or more 174 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 1: frequently they use the term prostitute, which can be quite 175 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: a pejorative term, I feel like it's missing, like a 176 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: just or an only at the front of that term, 177 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: you know, like she's just a sex worker. Only a 178 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: sex worker. She's not really as worth as much as 179 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 1: a normal human being. And that's one of the reasons 180 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: that I find a case quite tragic, but also I 181 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: believe one of the reasons she meant the fate that 182 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: she did. 183 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,439 Speaker 2: And this issue comes up in stories about Jack the 184 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 2: Ripper as well. 185 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, there's Halle Rubinholdt has an excellent book called 186 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,599 Speaker 1: The Five, which is about the five canonical victims of 187 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper, and you know, all the ways they're 188 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: presented in media again sex workers, and is often quite 189 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 1: a titillating perspective. You know, they're shown as young, you know, busty. 190 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: In course, it's a kind stuff like that. And if 191 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: you read this book, you find actually had incredibly complex lives. 192 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: I believe several of them actually weren't even sex workers, 193 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: or there's no proof that. 194 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 3: They were only one of them. 195 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,719 Speaker 1: Mary Kelly was one who really had any convictions for 196 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: it in any longstanding sort of manner. But it was 197 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: just something that was a part of life Victoria and London. 198 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: You know, everyone was available for a price. And so 199 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: I see in this Genes story as well, she's a 200 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: much much more complex, quite tragic figure beyond what she 201 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: did to put food on the table. 202 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 2: And Damien, can you tell us about the public reaction 203 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 2: to the verdict. 204 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, so sixty seven percent of people in one poll 205 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: considered her guilty in deserving the fate, and you know, 206 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: maybe that has something to do with what we've just 207 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: talked about. There was some debate over capital punishment, but 208 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: nothing like Ryan sixteen years later. And look, even going 209 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: back to the very first executions in Victoria, there was 210 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: debate in the press about these kind of things, about 211 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: whether they were necessary, about whether civilized people hang other people, 212 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. But we're in the fifties now. 213 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 1: The reality of the fifties is probably different from how 214 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: we view it these days. You know, coming out of 215 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: the Howard era, we had this kind of conservative, nuclear family, heterosexual, 216 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: white pick at fence vision of the fifties, which never 217 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: really existed because you have to consider the fifties is 218 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: there was a time when a lot of people had 219 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: just come back from a war and were like, what 220 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: the hell did we just fight that war for. So 221 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: there's a lot of trade union movements, as anarchists, as 222 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: queer as there's feminists fighting back. But the dominant culture, 223 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 1: the people who wrote the newspapers, who did the radio broadcasts, 224 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: they were very much conservative at the time. You know, 225 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: you can almost imagine it in the newsreal voice talking 226 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: about the family at the time. You know, here we 227 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 1: see that in some abon you know, give us away kids, 228 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. But it was framed at the 229 00:11:55,200 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: time as necessary, you know, perhaps not quite a enjoyable duty, 230 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: but a necessary duty because jails were considered too nice 231 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: for criminals. Again, do we hear that today? Absolutely? 232 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 3: Yes. 233 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: Have I found newspapers from eighteen sixty three saying the 234 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: exact same thing, Yes, but really oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 235 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: It's always been a thing of jails are too nice. 236 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: People commit crimes just to get in there. 237 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 3: It just. 238 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: So, you know, one editorial I read said that jails 239 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: were too nice and the jail cell holds no fear 240 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: for the criminal, whereas the rope does. And this same 241 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: editorial also said that murder in Victoria was considered almost 242 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: commonplace at the time. Now I haven't had a look 243 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: into statistics to back that up, but it just gives 244 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: you an idea of. 245 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 3: How Victoria was seen at the time. 246 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: It was a hotbed of crime and murder and all 247 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: this kind of stuff, and to me, that just illustrates 248 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: that tension between this mass culture, top down viewpoint of 249 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: conservative Australia in the Menzies era versus what was actually 250 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: happening at street level. So they did make a further 251 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,079 Speaker 1: appeal to the Privy Council in England, like Ryan did 252 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: sixteen years later, but this was useless. 253 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 2: We'll be back soon to find out what happened next 254 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 2: to Jean Lee. So stay with us now. Tell us 255 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 2: about Jean Lee's last days. 256 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: She was distraught at her fate. Now, Clayton was apparently 257 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: quite angry, Andrews took refuge in prayer. Andrews is an 258 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: interesting character, appears to me from the trial onwards, he 259 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: seemed to have been quite stoic and accepting of everything 260 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 1: that was happening to him. But Jean was absolutely distraught. 261 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: She apparently went berserk, trashing her cell and attacking waters 262 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: things like that, until finally male waters had to be 263 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: brought in to overpower her and sedate her. Particularly, this 264 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: all happened when she found out that the appeal had 265 00:13:55,920 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: been useless. What about visitors, They visitors on their last weekend. 266 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, did generally get to see her daughter in the end? 267 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 3: I don't know. 268 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 1: That's not a fact that's mentioned anywhere. And this is 269 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 1: again one of those things that leads me to believe 270 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: that she was kept out of the press. 271 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 3: Now I could easily. 272 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: Conceive of something like her mother, her Jean's mother, her 273 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: daughter's mother, even saying, not even protecting her from what 274 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: had happened at the time, although she would probably be 275 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: odd enough to understand by this point. But if she did, 276 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: I haven't been able to find anything about it. The 277 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: only record I have, visitors, is that three friends flew 278 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: down from Sydney to see her on the Sunday before 279 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: her execution. 280 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 2: Okay, and tell us about the day of the execution. 281 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: So one hundred and eighty seven people were executed in Victoria, 282 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: and kind of need to just talk a little bit 283 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: about that before we talk about the last day. See, 284 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: executions have always been public in somewhere and under the 285 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: first six were conducted right out front of the old 286 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: Melbourne Jail in a temporary gallows and there is a 287 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: memorial to the city men executed out their skill in 288 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: that space to this day. But they were always a 289 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: big spectacle. First they moved inside the walls of Old 290 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: Melbourne Jail and then actually inside the cell block that 291 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: still exists where the gallows is there. From a belief, 292 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: from eighteen sixty five onwards, people were executed on the 293 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: gallows up there, and then when Old Melbourne Jail closes 294 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty four, from nineteen twenty eight onwards the 295 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: gallows is installed in D Division at Pintridge Prison. But 296 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: even as they're inside the walls of the jail, people 297 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: are brought into witnesses witnesses and need to be there 298 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: to see the arm of the state moving and justice 299 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: being done, and there is in some ways still a spectacle. 300 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: See new executions make good newspaper headlines. And it's interesting 301 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: if you go back into the sort of the colony 302 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: of Port philip Airea and you talk about you look 303 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: through the newspapers and the editorials really hype up for 304 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: days beforehand, you know, the execution of this vile fiend 305 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: on the gallows and Old Melbourne and stuff like that. 306 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: And then immediately the day after they'll talk about the 307 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: appalling behavior of the crowd at this execution that they 308 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: just typed up. But as we move into the twentieth century, 309 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: these become more somber affairs, and the witnesses are usually 310 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: state officials and reporters. Now the hangman himself, we could 311 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: have a whole kind of podcast about that, and instead 312 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: I just suggest you read the late and dearly Miss 313 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: Trevor Putney's excellent book sin. 314 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 3: Hemp about that. 315 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: But the hangman in the last few executions in Victoria, 316 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: we don't actually know who they were. By this point 317 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: in time, they were very much trying to protect and 318 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: hide their identities, and we don't know who the hangman was. 319 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: In this case, he wore a disguise, as did his assistant, 320 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: and the members of the press were inside d Division 321 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: waiting for the execution. They hangman and his assistant kept 322 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: their backs to them all the time. So nineteenth February 323 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty one, the executions take place at ten Am 324 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: and Andrews go to their deaths together on the scaffold very quietly. 325 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: Apparently they'd say goodbye to each other. That's their last words, 326 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,880 Speaker 1: and that's it. But two hours beforehand, Jeane had met 327 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: her fate. And her fate is very interesting because she 328 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: went through the gallows tied to a chair. She was 329 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: handcuffed to a chair with the hood over her head. 330 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: The chair was secured by a length of chain to 331 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: the gallows uprights itself so it wouldn't fall to the ground. 332 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 1: And at eight o'clock in the morning she went through 333 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: sitting tied to that chair. 334 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 2: Why was that done? 335 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 3: Well? 336 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: Herein lies one of the most interesting parts of the story. 337 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: There is an apocryphal story that Jean died of fright 338 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: when she was brought in and saw the gallows. I 339 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: have heard this story many many times from different people 340 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:47,439 Speaker 1: as they come on the tours at Pantride. You know 341 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: what about the woman executed there, didn't she die of 342 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: fright when she saw the gallows? 343 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 3: And as far as the. 344 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: Story goes, that the wheels of justice still had to 345 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: turn and they still had to go through the act 346 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: of hanging an already dead woman. Yeah, that's the story, 347 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: and I guess it appeals to some people because it's 348 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: quite dark, and to other people who sort of sums 349 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: up this kind of caff caress hidebound bureaucracy of you know, 350 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: going through with a completely pointless act because it's required, 351 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: and the thing is it's just not true. Unfortunately, it's 352 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: just not and the truth is much much sadder. Jeane 353 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: was absolutely distraught at her fate and she was sedated 354 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: the night before so she could have some sleep now, 355 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: according to Governor j Edwards, governor of Petridge at the time, 356 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: that was the only sedative she received. According to the 357 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: witnesses who witnessed the execution, she was stumbling, she was 358 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: being carried essentially by matrons to the execution. She was 359 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: completely out of it as the hangman put the noose 360 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: around her neck. Her head was lolling on its shoulders. 361 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: And so it's quite probable in my opinion that she 362 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 1: was sedated before being taken to the gallows. And interesting, 363 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: only sixteen years later, when Ryan is hanged, he has 364 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: actually offered a sedative as well before his execution, so 365 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: you know, possibly precedent there. But we also have had 366 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: people come on the tours. One who was a matron 367 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: who was there at the time, and according to that person, 368 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: according to family members of another matron who was there 369 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 1: at the time, they actually Jane was so distraught that 370 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 1: they kept her sedated and drunk for up to weeks 371 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 1: before her execution. 372 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 3: They just kept constantly kept applied with drugs and alcohol. 373 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 1: So yeah, that's unfortunately, you know, we have this dark 374 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: story of her dying of fright, but unfortunately the truth 375 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: is much much sadder. 376 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 2: Such a tragic tale. 377 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:42,199 Speaker 3: It is. 378 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, an innocent woman. I mean, she wasn't completely innocent. 379 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 2: She was part of the crime, but she certainly, she said, 380 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 2: was not guilty of murder. 381 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, so, according to the Kronas reports, her death and 382 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: Andrews were instantaneous. Unfortunately, Clayton, he didn't suffer such a 383 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 1: quick death. According to the coroner's report, he died of 384 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: exphyxiation and brain hemorrhage. So there's no time given for that, 385 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: like there is for Ryan, who was apparently alive although 386 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: not conscious, for thirteen minutes after his hanging. But yeah, 387 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 1: Clayton did not die instantly. Although the way hanging works, 388 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: it's quite possible that, you know, like with Ryan, you're 389 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: probably not conscious, so you're probably not feeling it, but 390 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 1: you definitely don't die instantly. A week beforehand, unmarked graves 391 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: had been dug for all three of them out behind 392 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: D Division and they were buried in these graves. And 393 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 1: as far as I've been able to ascertain, Gene definitely, 394 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 1: I'm not sure about Clayton and Andrews. 395 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 3: They're still there. They're still there behind D Division. 396 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, so there's still just a graveyard there with 397 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 2: unmarked graves, lots of unmarked graves. 398 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: It's just a patch of land and there are at 399 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: least twelve, possibly thirteen bodies in that land. As far 400 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: as we've been able to tell, it was a graveyard 401 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: at Pintridge when Old Melbourne Jail clothes there were forty 402 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: four bodies buried there, including Ned Kelly, roughly at the 403 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: side of where the o Mit basketball court is now, 404 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: and those bodies were taken up to Penridge buried in 405 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: three mass graves. 406 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 3: And when Pentridgh. 407 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: Closed sort of two thousand and nine to twenty ten, 408 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:17,360 Speaker 1: eleven thirteen excavation works those graveyards were found. The bodies 409 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 1: from Old Melbourne Wood Jail were exhumed and sent to 410 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: the Coroner's Court to be identified. That's famously how Ned 411 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: was identified, and he's now buried next to his mum. 412 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 1: But the bodies from Penridge, those had all markers and 413 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 1: identifies on their coffins, so they were reburied. Some of 414 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: them have been sent back to their families. But I 415 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 1: almost certain Gene is still there. I'm pretty sure I 416 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 1: know exactly where she is behind d Division. 417 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 3: You can actually if you. 418 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 1: Google prov Losing the plot. The report on the excavation 419 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: about this is very, very good and very easy to read. 420 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 2: Any final thoughts about the story of Jean Lee before 421 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 2: I ask you a couple of other questions. 422 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: I just think she is so interesting because, yes, like 423 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: we talked at the start, she is the only woman 424 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 1: executed at Penridge, which is I work at Pantridge and 425 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,199 Speaker 1: Old Melbourne Jail, of course, but Pentridge is kind of 426 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: It's where I started it for the National Trust. It's 427 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: kind of my baby still with what goes on there. 428 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: I just recently did a Heritage Month tool where I 429 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: took people down to see where I believe jeans grave 430 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: is located and told them her story and stuff like that, 431 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: and also just that it speaks to so much of 432 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: what goes on with the story of women in the 433 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 1: prison system, you know, the idea of them failing their 434 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: gender and things like that, and then there are the 435 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: folk tale aspects of it that she died of fright, 436 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: that she confessed to save her lover, and also just 437 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: the fact that she's still there. 438 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 3: You know, I know where she is. 439 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: I know certain other people who suggested she. 440 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 3: Deserves a memorial, and I agree. I believe she deserves 441 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 3: a memorial. 442 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: You know, she was definitely a criminal, and like other people, 443 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: I could tell you stories about it Penridge, but again, 444 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: she wasn't the one that did the crime. We don't 445 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: do capital punishment in Australia and probably never will ever again. 446 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,679 Speaker 1: And you know we all have her opinions about that. 447 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,159 Speaker 1: I'm extremely anti the death penalty, and so as the 448 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: last woman executed in Australia, which she was, I feel 449 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: like her tail is quite tragic, but one that definitely 450 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: shouldn't be forgotten. 451 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 2: Now, her story also has an interesting parallel to another woman, 452 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Scott. Can you tell us about that? 453 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely so, Elizabeth. She was the first woman executed 454 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: in Australia in eighteen sixty three. 455 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 3: Now Elizabeth. 456 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: She was born Elizabeth Luckett and in eighteen fifty three, 457 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 1: at the age of only thirteen, she was married to 458 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: a man named Bob Scott who was in his late thirties, 459 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: and he was a belligerent drunk and Elizabeth alleged that 460 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: he beat her. They ran a bar, and Elizabeth was 461 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 1: quite an attractive, vivacious, popular bar made and she attracted 462 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: the attention of a man named David Gedge, and David 463 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: Gedge ended up murdering elizabeth husband. 464 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 3: He did this with the help of a man named 465 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 3: Julian Cross. 466 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: Now, according to what I've been able to find out, 467 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: at the time, Elizabeth was actually not present when the 468 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: murder was committed. But in the trial, again Elizabeth's character 469 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: comes into question. She it's noted that whenever her husband 470 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: was sick, Robert Scott, she did nothing to help him, 471 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: nothing to try and make him better or stuff like that, 472 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: almost like she wanted him to die. And you have 473 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: to remember women at this time had no right to divorce. 474 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: So look, maybe she did want her thirty year old, 475 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: er abusive husband to die, but she ended up also 476 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 1: in custody. And when she's in custody in the old Melbourne, Joe. 477 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: She made several jokes and she did not seem that 478 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: concerned about the fate of her husband, and so she 479 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: was sentenced to death alongside her boyfriend and his accomplice. 480 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: I believe that on the gallows she actually turned to 481 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 1: her boyfriend and her last words were, David, will you 482 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: not clear me now? Because her boyfriend and his accomplice 483 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: made no attempt to say that Elizabeth wasn't there at 484 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: the time that the murder was committed. So again this 485 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: parallel of did she confess to potentially save these men 486 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: because she was a woman and would not be hanged, 487 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: But then again, she's not a real woman in the 488 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: eyes of society and all kinds of things like that, 489 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 1: So she also meets her fates on the rope. And 490 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 1: it's just really interesting that these these parallels between these 491 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,679 Speaker 1: two women. One was the first and one was the last. 492 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is interesting. Now, Damien, people in Melbourne can 493 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 2: actually do tours at the old Penridge Prison out at 494 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 2: Coburg and learn more about stories like you've told us today. 495 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 2: Can you tell us more about the tours? 496 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 3: Sure? Can. 497 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: We are open Thursday to Monday. The tours start at 498 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: ten thirty. They finish at two thirty or four to thirty, 499 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 1: depending on the day, and on Thursday, Friday and Saturday 500 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: nights there are six thirty and eight thirty night tours. 501 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: You come up to Penridge, come into our office which 502 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: is just inside the main gate, or you can book 503 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: online and we have two tours. There is the B 504 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: Division tour, which is a tour that covers more just 505 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: general history of the place and takes you into B 506 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: Division where you can have some time to explore B 507 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: and finishes up in the exercise yard where you can 508 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: see where Ronald Ryan escape from. Or there's the H 509 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: Division tour, which takes you down into the notorious H Division, 510 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: which was set up in nineteen fifty eight as a 511 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: punishment and high security division, and H has been left 512 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: pretty much as exactly as it was when it was 513 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 1: abandoned in nineteen ninety seven. So it's a lot more 514 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: like exploring an old abandon in prison if you're looking 515 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: to replicate the experience of sneaking into Pentridge, like lots 516 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: of people did, not saying that one of them or anything. 517 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,360 Speaker 2: So is there still quite a lot of the old 518 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 2: prison that you can see, because obviously a lot of 519 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 2: it has been redeveloped into housing and a cinema and 520 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 2: shop since it closed what was it nearly thirty years ago. 521 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, closed in nineteen ninety seven. Yeah, so there is 522 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 1: still quite a bit. Yeah, a lot of the buildings 523 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: have been converted. We only work with the northern half 524 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: of it for the most part, and most of that 525 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: that's up there now is heritage listed. So I believe 526 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: they're going to be opening up what's now a division 527 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 1: at some point for some future use and things like that. 528 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: But we have access to B and H and the 529 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: way the tool works, you spend about thirty thirty five 530 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: minutes with a guide like myself. We work around, We 531 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: take you through the grounds and tell you all about 532 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: what those buildings we used for, point out what buildings 533 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: were there at certain points in time and things like that. 534 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: Then you get forty five minutes exploring inside one of 535 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: the divisions using interactive audio content that where former waters 536 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: former prisoners tell you stories in their own words, and 537 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 1: then there's a little sort of ten to fifteen minutes 538 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 1: summing up. At the end, we'll we'll tell you more stories. 539 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,199 Speaker 1: So a lot of it is left, but you do 540 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: get to hear about a lot of what's not there in. 541 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 3: The words of the people who were there. 542 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: And I also I find a thing that people don't 543 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: realize this Puntries operated for one hundred and forty seven years. 544 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: It was constantly changing and renovating and operating that whole time. 545 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,120 Speaker 1: So for instance, where the shopping center in the movie 546 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,239 Speaker 1: theater is now, people talk about how they you know, 547 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 1: they knocked down Sea Division to make way for that. 548 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 1: Well they knocked down Sea Division in nineteen seventy four, 549 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: so you know, there were just kitchens and basketball courts 550 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 1: and stuff there at times. Pentridge is very much a living, 551 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: breathing thing the whole time it operated. It changed all 552 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: the time. It was one hundred and thirty eight is 553 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 1: as biggest point. So lots of change going on there 554 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: all the time, and we're keeping what's happened there alive, 555 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: but still a part of just the continuous process of 556 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: change that happened on that side. 557 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 3: You know. 558 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: That's also not getting to the fact that that was 559 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: a sacred site for the ware and duru Wo Wrong 560 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: people for sixty thousand years before then as well. So 561 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: it is very much a changing landscape. 562 00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for coming and sharing the 563 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 2: story of Jean Lee with us today. Damien really appreciate it. 564 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 3: You're so welcome. Thank you so much for having me. 565 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. This has been In Black and White, 566 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 2: a podcast about some of Australia's forgotten characters, written and 567 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,239 Speaker 2: hosted by me Jen Kelly, edited by Nina Young and 568 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 2: produced by John ty Burton. You can find all the 569 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 2: stories and photos associated with our episodes at haroldsun dot 570 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 2: com dot au slash ibaw. 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