1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:04,560 Speaker 1: Open for public consultation from today. Companies that fail to 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: protect their customers from scams could be forced to pay 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: compensation under proposed new laws. You can have your say 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: on this if you like. The federal government will today 5 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 1: announce and has today announced major anti scam reforms and 6 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 1: this means social media platforms, banks telcodes will have to 7 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: take greater action to stop Australians being exploited. The fines 8 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: could total millions. This is a good move, I think. 9 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: Assistant Treasurer Stephen Jones is on the line. Assistant Treasurer, 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: Good morning, Matthew, good to be with you. So how 11 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: will this work? 12 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,160 Speaker 2: So what we've looked at is how what's the best 13 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 2: mechanism possible to provide greater protections for Australian And so 14 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 2: we've looked at the ecosystem that scams operate in. They 15 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 2: come to us via a telecommunications network for as service 16 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 2: manage or a phone call. They come to us via 17 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 2: a social media platform via and ad and what's that message? 18 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 2: And obviously the bank is the money at the end 19 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 2: of the transaction. So we need all of these parts 20 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 2: in the ecosystem to lift their protection, do much much 21 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,199 Speaker 2: more to keep their customers safe. So the new law 22 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 2: will put in place obligations on these designated industries to prevent, 23 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:25,839 Speaker 2: to detect, to disrupt, to respond to reports of scams, 24 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 2: and to report scams themselves to others, to the government, 25 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 2: to other agencies within the network. All of it aim 26 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 2: to keeping customers safe and preventing a scam from occurring. 27 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 2: But if one does get through the system because one 28 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 2: of these businesses has done the wrong thing and fail 29 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 2: to meet their obligations finds penalties, compensation will follow. 30 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: Okay with banks, and banks will tell you, the ABA 31 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: will certainly tell you they've put in all sorts of 32 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: procedures and improve their security and try to stop people. 33 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: You know, the last the question, why are you're using 34 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: the money while you're taking out this much more? If 35 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: you're in a branch, And that's all very well and good, 36 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: but are they they're the last door, I suppose, the 37 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 1: last possible way of stopping somebody handing out cash unwillingly, 38 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: unknowingly to a scammer. Have they done enough? I mean, 39 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: how do we get to the point where you just 40 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: can't give your money to a scam? Or is that impossible? 41 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 2: Well, the law of the moment is a bit vague. 42 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 2: In some areas, the banks under current law must refund 43 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 2: your money if money has left your account and it 44 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 2: wasn't an authorized transaction. The problem with scams is so 45 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 2: often they're authorized and people have been lured into making 46 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 2: these transactions because somebody is pretending to be who they aren't. 47 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 2: So we need to improve the law and the protections 48 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 2: in these areas. We don't want to get to a 49 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 2: situation where a bank will always refuse to honor what 50 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 2: a customer has asked them to do, because when you 51 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 2: and I put our money in a bank, we do 52 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 2: it on the condition the bank let's just take it 53 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 2: out when we want to, and let's move it some let' 54 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 2: us buy things with it, because it's our money. So 55 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 2: we've got to get the balance right between having obligations 56 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 2: on them to detect, to prevent and to respond to 57 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 2: scams in their ecosystem, but also on the other players 58 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 2: within the system as well, because you know, Facebook takes 59 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 2: money from advertising and having things on Facebook marketplace, and 60 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 2: they're not the only ones. Other social media platforms do 61 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 2: as well, so it's a bit odd that they're making 62 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 2: money and Australians are losing money out of posting these 63 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 2: scam advertising. So we've got to lift the bar there 64 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 2: and put new obligations in place there as well. So 65 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 2: everybody needs to lift the bar. We'll start with banks 66 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 2: and telco's and social media platforms. When we get that 67 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 2: nailed out, we'll have to move to other areas of 68 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 2: the economy, because we know scams all moved to where 69 00:03:58,160 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 2: the easiest door is to open. 70 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: All right, now, certainly what you're saying about social media 71 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: and the David Koshas of the world, Dick Smiths, Twiggy Forest, 72 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: who's taking Meta to court over the fake AI videos 73 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: which look and sound real. They look and sound like 74 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: the person they're representing telling people to invest their money 75 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 1: in cryptocurrency or whatever it might be. Get involved in 76 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: this ground floor, and I trust it and it's got 77 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 1: my approval. I mean, that's just unconscionable for the social 78 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: media companies to leave these up and for it to 79 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: go to court for goodness. 80 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 2: Sake, exactly exactly, And one of the obligations we'll have 81 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 2: upon them is to pull down that fake material, that 82 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 2: criminal content, so report and respond. A key part of 83 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 2: the architecture of our new laws and if they don't 84 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 2: do it, obviously find some penalties apply. It's unconscionable. But 85 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 2: if you're a high profile Australian Twiggies in the US 86 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: at the moment, he might have the resources to Yeah, 87 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 2: that's I think the most Australian stones than whether you're 88 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 2: an Olympian or a footballer or whatever. They've all had 89 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 2: their identity stolen by the by these gangs to lure 90 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 2: Australians into losing money, and we can't tolerate it. We've 91 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 2: got to improve the protection. 92 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: Is this been done around the world, I imagine other 93 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: countries would be taking similar steps, So we doing anything 94 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: different in that regard In this. 95 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 2: I've had a look around the world and I've spoken 96 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 2: to my counterparts in other countries. None of them have 97 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,559 Speaker 2: nailed it. In my view. Some of them just jumped 98 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 2: straight to compensation and say, well, somebody loses money, then 99 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 2: we'll just make the bank pay. And I can see 100 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 2: the superficial attraction in that, but it'll create a honeypot. 101 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 2: You'll get every scammer in the world saying, come to Australia. 102 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 2: You know it's a victimless crime because the bank will 103 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 2: always pay and I think the better approach is to 104 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 2: have prevention in place, So that's what we're doing. That's 105 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 2: different having new laws which are consumer focused, which are 106 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: putting obligations for prevention. Yes, compensations are part of it. 107 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 2: For the first loomurs prevention. So I think what we're 108 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 2: doing is different, and I would argue better than any 109 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 2: other country in the world. 110 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: Okay, telecommunication companies telcos would have the obligation I imagine 111 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 1: under your proposals to try and stop the text that 112 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 1: I often get at two or three in the morning 113 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: telling me I've driven on a toll road and haven't paid, 114 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: or there's no toll road exactly. Well, there's your big 115 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: tip number one, but also the parcel that you know 116 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: is on the way but the address is wrong or whatever, 117 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: and again haven't ordered anything for ages, so not a problem. 118 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: But that's the sort of thing I imagine you're trying 119 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: to stop out to get the tilcos on top of that, 120 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: but it's hard when the numbers are massed, So how 121 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: do you how do you get on that and stop 122 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: the text from coming through. 123 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 2: So we're going to have we've got essentially a blacklist 124 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 2: at the moment where we're filtering out millions of calls 125 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 2: and messages every week, but still lots coming through because 126 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 2: as soon as we create a we put a number 127 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 2: on a blacklist and another one pops up. So the 128 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 2: under the new arrangements, we're going to have a white 129 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 2: less So if you want to send a message out 130 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 2: and you say you're a bank, or you say you're 131 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 2: a Telko, you say your Australia Post, your name has 132 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 2: to be on the register, and the name and the 133 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 2: number has to match. And if you try and send 134 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 2: something out and it doesn't match with the names on 135 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 2: the register, it's blocked. So that's the new approach that 136 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 2: we'll be implementing through these arrangements. But you know, as 137 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 2: technology is evolves and as new things evolve, we'll want 138 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: to continually upgrade the requirements on telcos and others to 139 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 2: be honest about what we expect is reasonable to keep 140 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 2: customers safe. 141 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I suppose to. The thing we've all got 142 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: to keep in mind is not to be so trusting 143 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: because and I think older people without any disrespect, meant 144 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: overly trusting when it came and that's the world they 145 00:07:57,920 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: were raised in. You know, we could leave doors open 146 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: and all the rest in Haim's way back when. But 147 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: times have changed, and if somebody tells you something on 148 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: the phone or online, it's ain't necessarily say exactly. 149 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 2: A few tips that I always give when I'm talking 150 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 2: about this. Don't press those bloody blue links on your SMS, 151 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 2: because that's how scammers lure you off to a fake website. 152 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: Don't give your information out to an unsolicited call. Don't 153 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: let somebody remote access into your computer. The scam where 154 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 2: they say we've we've noticed, we've detected some suspicious activity 155 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 2: on your internet. You just got to let us in 156 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 2: there to stop this happening. They're not trying to stop 157 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 2: it happening. They're actually the bad guys trying to get 158 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 2: into your computer and your bank account and your personal details. 159 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 2: So those three things good tips for your listeners to 160 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 2: keep themselves safe. 161 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: Yep. And so see Consumer the ahable, see the Competition 162 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: and Consumer Commission that'll be undertaking this and imposing the 163 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: law here, trying to put it into practice. 164 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 2: They'll be the system wide regulator to ensure that everyone 165 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 2: is obeying the law. But we'll also be having a 166 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 2: role for the other regulators in the place, in the 167 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 2: space as well to ensure they're looking after their part 168 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 2: of the ecosystem. If I could use this expression, this 169 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,199 Speaker 2: is all about raising the bar to ensure we are 170 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 2: doing more right across the economy to keep Australian safe. 171 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: And you'll expect this to be in place later this 172 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: year early next. 173 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, so quick consultation period, like I've been talking to 174 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 2: people for quite some time about it, but a consultation 175 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 2: period formally over the next three weeks just to make 176 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 2: sure we've got the details of the legislation right. I'll 177 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 2: make some changes based on that and then getting into 178 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 2: Parliament this year as hopefully through as soon as possible. 179 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 2: I want this in place. Australians are losing, you know, 180 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 2: two point seventy five billion dollars in scams last year 181 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 2: and every one of those dollars as a tragedy behind it. 182 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. All right, Stephen Jones, appreciate your time. 183 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: Thank you, good to talk, Assistant Treasurer and Financial Services Minister. 184 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 1: Scam legislation going before Parliament which will put the onus 185 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: on companies to take greater steps to protect customers and 186 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: will be forced to pay compensation under proposed new laws. 187 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: So these anti scam reforms will have social media giants, 188 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: banks Turcos having to take a greater action to stop 189 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:28,199 Speaker 1: the exploitation through scams. It is unbelievable what these people 190 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: will try and do and there's just no conscience behind them, 191 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: just no soul to these people.