WEBVTT - Non-Monogamy Makes Liam & Abbey Their Most Authentic Selves 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:06.440 If you don't feel a connection to any nominogamous concepts, 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:08.560 and you've looked into it and you really make that 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:11.879 choice to be monogamous with your partner, that's a beautiful thing, 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:15.080 and that can be a wonderful and fulfilling and rich 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:17.840 way to live your life. But for us, the most, 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:20.480 you know, the authentic way that we can live our 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:25.159 life with ourselves is to be non monogamous. 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.560 Welcome to the heart of it. We would like to 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:34.040 acknowledge the gartical people of the or nation, the traditional 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:37.639 custodians of this land, and pay our respects to the elders, 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:42.280 both past and present. Today's episode is a conversation about 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:47.199 non monogamy, conscious relationships, and sexuality. We are joined by 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:51.520 the hosts of the Evolving Love podcast, Abby and Liam. 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:54.520 They still have been together for over thirteen years and 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:58.480 have been consensually non monogamous for eleven of those years, 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:00.520 and they are loving parents. 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:04.760 They are And it was a chat that I was 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:10.479 really really surprised by because I know we've had somewhat 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:13.440 similar guess some before, and it is a bit of 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:16.640 a touchy subject for a lot of people. You know, 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:21.320 it feels very dangerous. It feels wrong to some people, 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:27.160 and I really understand that point of view in one sense. 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:29.600 But after talking to Abby and. 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:33.280 Liam, it's not that I now want to be non monogamous, 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:36.119 but the way they talk about it with so much 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:41.200 love and care and consideration, and they why they are 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:47.119 in an ethical non monogamous relationship, it really makes sense. 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:50.920 And I think it's just in the it makes sense 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:52.280 for them, do you know what I mean? And I 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:56.240 think it's just about staying curious and open to all 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:59.120 sorts of relationships. And that's something that I know you 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:02.440 and I really want it encourage people to have, just 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:05.920 to had the curiosity to what other people's lives are about. 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:09.000 Indeed, indeed, well we got into the heart of it with. 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:09.760 This, we did. 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:10.480 We did. 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:18.799 Let's let's have a listen to Abby and Liam. 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:21.600 Okay, well, welcome you to the heart of it. Thank 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:24.200 you so much for coming in and just exploring this 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:25.600 really interesting topic. 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:28.160 We've we've had a couple of other couples on that. 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:32.040 Have explored non monogamy and been very positive about it. 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:35.120 They have very much felt felt so so we just 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:38.720 want to kind of get your journey into it. How 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:40.960 did it begin for the both of you. This this 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:43.400 ethical non monogamy B n M. 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:47.160 Yeah, it's part. That's part of when I've looked you 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:50.160 guys up, I'm looking at the all these new terms. 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:54.760 There's lots of there are a lot of the specificity 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:58.640 of it fascinating. Anyway, how did it go? How did 0:02:58.800 --> 0:02:59.880 how did how did it begin? 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:02.200 Well, first of all, thank you so much for having 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:06.360 us the way that this unfolded FILEAM and I was 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:10.320 when we first got together, we were in a monogamous relationship, 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:13.560 and that was back in twenty twelve, and from the 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:17.080 early days of our relationship we were very just open 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:21.080 with our communication and sort of we wanted to cultivate 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:24.160 and build a relationship where we could essentially talk about anything, 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:26.720 So anything that might come up, or if in the 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:29.640 future somebody might get a crush on somebody, or if 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:32.040 there's some sort of fear or you know that you 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:34.800 want to raise, or if there's some desire or kink 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:36.960 that maybe you can't you know, you might feel a 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:39.440 bit shy to talk about. We've always wanted to have 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:42.160 the type of relationship where we could at least have 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:45.440 those conversations, whether or not we act on them or not. 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:49.760 And it was actually from that place of sharing and 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:53.080 connecting and being really open with our communication that we 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:55.720 just sort of created a space where we could start to, 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.040 you know, have these conversations and then we just sort 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:05.320 of organically started cultivating our own type of relationship. But 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:07.960 the thing that was really interesting, I think for us 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:12.280 was without having the language and the terminology, we both 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:16.640 found that we were very compursive people, which compersian. It's 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:19.880 a big word in nominogamy. It's like often positioned as 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:23.679 the opposite of jealousy. It's like this sort of excitement. 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:25.880 The first time the other day, that's so interesting. 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:26.400 Yeah, great. 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:32.360 It's sort of a it's kind of a foundational sort 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:36.880 of emotional feeling where you feel, you know, if there's 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:40.840 a scenario that might often cause jealousy, instead of feeling 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:44.040 that jealousy, you might feel excitement or happiness for your 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:47.159 partner's you know, connection with somebody else, or pleasure. So 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:49.159 even though we weren't acting on that, we didn't have 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:52.719 the language around it, you know, certain scenarios that I 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:55.760 thought of that might make me jealous. I was like, actually, 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:59.200 I'm finding this to be quite a positive thing that 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:02.800 I'm experienced and then when I shared that with you 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:03.680 felt similarly. 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:05.600 Yeah, we both really felt on the same page. As 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:07.919 soon as we started to have those initial conversations, it 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:10.960 was amazing how aligned we actually were, and I think 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:13.800 from that kind of from that point, we started to 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:17.120 then look at how it would look actually exploring these 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:18.200 things with other people. 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:21.320 Does it do you think it comes from your upbringing? 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:23.719 Did you Did you have an upbringing that was extremely 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:26.880 strict or perhaps the opposite, like, where does that come from? 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:27.719 With the both of you? 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:33.960 For me, I've I've had a very like I wasn't 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.360 brought up in a you know, a religious family or 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:38.800 anything like that, and I've always had very clear lines 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:42.119 of communication about things with my parents, so I didn't 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:45.520 feel sort of concerned, you know, too much. And I 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:47.919 think because it was Liam and I together that I 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:49.919 didn't have a sort of an element of shame for 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:53.520 thinking about this. It felt like something just different and 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:55.200 interesting that we could explore. 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:58.400 And for Liam, you had Yeah, I never really had 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:01.040 this kind of a strong religious back, so there wasn't 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:03.280 anything that I had to unpack when it comes tom 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:06.120 like a religious standpoint, And I think I grew up 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:09.520 in a very kind of judgment free household about different relationships, 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:13.320 So I didn't necessarily feel any kind of strictures around 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:15.599 you know, it's a bad thing to think about these 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:17.640 things or so it really just allowed us to have 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:21.480 these very open conversations with each other without that element, 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:23.840 as Abby was saying, of that kind of any shame pieces. 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:28.120 Yeah, yeah, And how has your relationship changed since you 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:32.240 decided to be non monogamous? Has what's happened for the 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:32.760 both of you? 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:35.760 Well, a big thing for us was when you start 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:38.120 to explore these types of things, it's a very tempting 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:39.919 thing to kind of jump into the deep end of 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:42.680 non monogamy, so to go, I'm going to start dating everyone. 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:43.680 We're going to do all the things. 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:45.800 We're going to go to all the parties and just 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:48.600 be really explorative. But what we wanted to do was 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:52.039 very consciously move into those spaces. So for us, it 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:54.400 was actually very important to kind of talk about all 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:58.040 the theoretical things, like different kind of almost like game 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:00.159 planning what it would look like if we were to 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:02.719 invite someone else into the relationship or to have these 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.720 experiences with other people. So for us, it was like 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:08.320 we were trying to kind of temper some of our 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:11.720 initial excitement, because it isn't a really exciting thing when 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:14.320 you start to open up and to just have this 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:17.800 like very open line of communication so that we could really, 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:20.040 you know, get into the nitty gritty of how we 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:24.520 were responding, even hypothetically to situations that might arise, because. 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:27.280 At that point it would be hypothetical. And always when 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:30.000 you're faced with the actual truth of it, it's one 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:32.320 thing to say, yeah, honey, I'm fine with it. You 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:36.600 go and suddenly Barries in the picture. Yeah, or maybe 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.080 it's not Barry, maybe it could be Birthny, you know, 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:42.520 you know, and you're going, now, I'm actually, oh, this 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:45.480 is actually happening, and I haven't done it yet, but 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:49.400 I'm watching my partner do it. That's a different thing 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:53.040 to go from hypothetical to action. 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:55.880 Yeah, and sometimes it's hard to meet the right Barry. 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:58.920 You know. It's one of those things where like we 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:01.880 had a kind of a very solid unit with each other, 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:04.600 like a very monogamous unit, and then we were living 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:06.280 in New York at the time, and part of the 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:08.520 thing was like, how do we meet other people in 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:11.320 a really ethical way so that we can explore some 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:13.720 of these ideas, so to meet a barrier or a 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:15.920 birth or you know, whoever it might be. You know, 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:19.480 we were kind of initially started going to different events 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:21.760 and talks, and we went to some Estaprel talks and 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:25.240 she was talking about and we love esteprel and so 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.640 there was a lot of kind of meeting people organically 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:32.520 who also practice this type of relationship, which opened the 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:33.080 doors for us. 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:36.319 And that was something that really surprised us as well, 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:39.600 because it's when you hear about non monogamous relationships, you 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:42.400 can often think, oh, you know, it's looking out outwoods, 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:44.600 or it's only about sex or this or that. But 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:47.720 for us, it was like really looking deeper into our 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:51.000 own relationship and who we are and all of the 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:54.320 different things that come up when you're starting to explore 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:57.760 this and have these conversations, and it sort of, you know, 0:08:57.840 --> 0:08:59.800 let us down the path of just being so curious 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:02.040 relationships in general. 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:06.679 So you've been together thirteen years, yes, and you're eleven 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:10.120 years of that has been non monogamous, and you're still 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:13.920 clearly together very much, So yeah, what is it about 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.720 you that you want to stay together, you know, and 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:19.640 not just go off and be with those partners that 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:21.480 you have been with. What draws you back to each 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:22.280 other all the time? 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:27.800 Well, we have a deep companionship and a shared life together, 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:32.040 and we are lovers, we are a married couple. Like 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:36.480 we are very very close, and like we still hold 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:38.800 a lot of those like I want to grow old 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:41.120 with Liam, Like that is something that we treasure, that 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:44.160 is like very very dear to our heart and important 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:47.120 to us now because of who we are and because 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:51.400 we can, you know, navigate this in this way. I 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:54.880 feel like we can actually you know, we can hold 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:58.720 the space for non monogamy as well, and you know, 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:01.960 there is that deep commitment to each other that in 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:04.080 many ways, I feel like I'm very committed to Lim, 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:08.120 I'm not committed to monogamy, and that it's actually this 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:10.720 sort of the way that we navigate it, navigate our 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:14.559 relationship sort of reinforces that closeness. It's sort of like 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.160 not that it's an antidote to anything, but it's sort 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:21.200 of it For me. It brings us actually a sense 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:23.480 of deeper security into the relationship. 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:26.560 And in preparation for this interview, I was listening to 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:29.160 one of your episodes and Cam you made the point 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:31.320 that you every day you wake up and choose to 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:34.240 be married to each other. It's like a very conscious choice. 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:38.199 And I think for us any non monogamous explorations, it's 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:41.560 a very conscious discussion. We don't just fall into these situations. 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:44.400 It's very deliberate, and even our commitment to each other, 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:46.600 we're just consciously choosing every. 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:48.280 Day we wake up and go, this is great, this 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:49.160 is beautiful. 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:51.000 You know, we have so much love and support for 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.160 each other, like, let's just keep writing this beautiful thing out. 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:57.800 I can find it hard to get my head around 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:05.320 because the eye idea of sharing a physical or sex 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:09.320 sexual life with somebody else or having Ali do the 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:15.960 same thing, ow's my person, you know. So basically if 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:20.160 you're bringing someone else in like Aby, I'll use you 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:23.160 as an example. So Mel Barry is going to come 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:27.000 come in and come into the relationship. Do you how 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:31.320 do you how do you work on on being that 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:36.320 emotional intimacy? How do you do you temper that? And 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:40.920 then do you tell Barry stuff that you don't tell Liam? 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:45.120 And I would find that very hard and and and 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:47.360 then say if there's another one, you know, let's Chris 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:49.559 has joined as well. I mean I don't know how 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:52.719 that you can explain to me how that works. But 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:56.240 but that sort of sharing your heart and being there 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:59.320 clearly it's with you too. Is it also with Barry 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:01.280 and could it be with Chris? 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:02.520 Yeah. 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:05.679 So the way that we practice our non monogamy, it's 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:09.800 we're not in we're not full on practicing polyamory where 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:14.720 we're maintaining these you know, very in depth like partner 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.160 building relationships in the same way that we have our marriage. 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:21.440 Like we have our marriage, we have our partnership and 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:25.960 our connections with other people whilst very meaningful and quite 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:30.959 you know, long lasting, it's more like a deep friendship 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:33.800 that does have an intimacy element to it as well, 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:37.960 you know, and we're very honest with you know, anybody 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:40.840 who would potentially be dating with partners where it's like 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:42.720 I'm not going to be building a life in the 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:45.719 same way. And I think it's really understandable that you 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:48.680 would feel like you can't understand how we you know, 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:51.840 how to comprehend this because when you're in a monogamous 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:54.760 relationship and that sort of the framework that you understand, 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:57.960 sometimes people can think that it's like having double of that. 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:00.240 So it's like how do you have the time, how 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:02.600 do you have the emotional bandit? How do you have 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:06.040 double of that? We don't have double of this? Yeah, yeah, 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:07.360 this is our marriage. 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:09.680 Okay, do you feel the same way. 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:10.080 Yeah. 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:12.040 I mean there's so many things to talk about when 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:15.200 it comes to this, in particular with the masculinity piece 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:17.800 as well, because I think there's so much social conditioning 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.959 that teaches us to be super possessive of our partner, 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:23.080 you know, like the most in love we can be 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:26.160 is to fight off any possible suitors, Like if someone 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:28.480 looks at Abby in a weird way to you know, 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:31.679 there's this like kind of trope of chasing after that 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.560 person and proving your love for your partner. And I 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:37.400 think once you start to really interrogate some of those things, 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:40.160 you can start to think about, you know, like what 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:43.040 of that is like down to kind of patriarchy potentially, 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:45.920 or kind of the social conditioning of monogamy. Like we 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:48.600 grow up and we're just told, you know, you should 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.240 be in a monogamous relationship, and whether that's down to 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:54.600 religion or just society conditioning. And I think once you 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:57.680 start interrogating some of these things and trying to kind 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:00.920 of decouple it a little bits were saying, like we 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:04.319 think about things, we start at everything as a friendship level, 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:06.360 and when you were saying, you know, like you can 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:09.560 probably you probably have really beautiful conversations with your close 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:12.680 guy friends or female friends that you have in your life, 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:16.760 and for us, like you probably might not necessarily feel 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:19.880 threatened by those really beautiful emotional friendships that you have 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:23.480 with others, and for us that the sex or intimacy 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:25.720 on top of that is just really an extension of 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:28.840 that connection. So we're just open to that extension. I 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:31.360 guess I think. 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:34.520 It's probably it probably gets a bad name in the 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.640 sense that when you've got like the cults where it's 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:40.000 like one man, you know what I mean, the polyamory 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:43.400 cult where it's one man with twenty five sixteen year olds, 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:45.960 where it's like people immediately would probably go, oh, this 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:48.080 is what you're into, you know what I mean, Where 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:51.000 you're talking about something very very very different to that. 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:52.960 It's like the complete opposite end to that. 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:57.840 So yeah, it's getting past, you know, being open and 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.520 getting past what what the idea of it is in 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:02.880 a lot of ways, because. 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:06.000 People you get one chance at the first impression, you know, 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:10.360 and if the first impression is some Culty movie that 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:14.640 you've watched Jim Jones and think and the cordial the 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:16.640 look cool aid, you know, it's sort of that sort 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:18.560 of thing. Well, that's what this is. And it's a 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:22.640 lot easier, I think it's a lot easier to reconcile 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.880 something by throwing it into a label, throwing into that. 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.280 So what you're talking about, it's a lot more nuanced 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:35.480 and collaborative and collaborative, and the language is very specific. 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:37.760 Like when we talked to you, you said a lot of acronyms, 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:40.160 a lot of do you find yourself going, oh this 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:42.640 are you thinking about it a lot? Because there's so 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:45.680 many things that sort of we talk about it all 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:46.160 the time. 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:48.360 Look, we don't talk about it all the time. We 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:52.040 have other things happening in our life and parents as well. 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:55.120 So you want to see how that works. 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:57.440 So we don't talk about it all the time, but 0:15:57.520 --> 0:15:59.800 it is something that we enjoy talking about and we 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:03.880 like to, you know, push our edges a little bit 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:06.280 and you know, see where things are at. And in 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:08.760 the context of non monogamy, there is always something to 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:12.120 talk about. So you know, even if it's revisiting something, 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:14.440 you know, in our mind, a memory that happened years ago, 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:16.600 and how we would sort of connect with that now 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:18.080 if we were to do it, you know, if we 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:20.600 were to be different or not. So there is always 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:23.040 an interesting aspect of it. And I think you know 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:26.120 as well as you know, there is that cult association 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:29.240 as you were saying, I think that there can also 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:31.960 be that resistance to hearing about non monogamy too, because 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:34.000 often the only sort of framework that a lot of 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:37.040 people have for nonmennogamy is if there is you know, 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.440 it's a story of infidelity, it's a story of pain. 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:43.120 We only sort of hear about these specific types of 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:45.880 you know, scenarios where there's some sort of betrayal, and 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:48.320 I think it is one of the It is a 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:50.600 type of it is a way of being where when 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.680 people do hear it, they put themselves in that situation 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:57.720 and sort of imagine or just how they might feel 0:16:57.840 --> 0:16:59.960 if it was them. And because they don't have that 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.720 compersian and they don't have that understanding and that point 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:07.160 of reference, it can it can feel uncomfortable. And that's 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:09.080 why I think it is good to have a chat 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:11.760 about these things. Because nothing is black and white. 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:14.119 And it is important for there to be representation of 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:17.440 different relationship structures. And this is why we talk about 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:19.800 it through our podcasts and why we're really interested in 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:22.840 talking to people with you know, all across the spectrum. 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:25.000 We've had biblical scholars that we've talked to about non 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:27.320 monogamy and how they would feel about it, and you know, 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:29.840 we've talked to people who are monogamous because that's That's 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:34.000 another thing is the misconception that because we're talking about nominogamy, 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.359 we're like crusaders for like everyone joining the cult of 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:40.359 non monogamy, which is absolutely not the case. It's a 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:43.080 great name for a band that would Yeah, maybe our 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:49.120 next band, Oh there we go, We're going to steal 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:52.199 that for our new theme tune. But I think it 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:55.199 is really important that we say that because there we 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:59.800 know so many wonderful monogamous people in beautiful monogamous relationships, 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:01.760 and the thing that we really care about is that 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:04.560 people are consciously choosing monogamy. It's like you were saying, like, 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:07.760 if you don't feel a connection to any nom monogamous 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.200 concepts and you've looked into it, and you really make 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:12.879 that choice to be monogamous with your partner, that's a 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:15.800 beautiful thing, and that that can be a wonderful and 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:19.040 fulfilling and rich way to live your life. But for us, 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:21.600 the most, you know, the authentic way that we can 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:27.960 live our life with ourselves is to be non monogamous. 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:35.360 We had an amazing sex historian on the podcast, her 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:38.000 and her mum who wrote this amazing book like Sex 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:42.040 through the History, and they were both like, nothing is new. 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:45.320 What's happening now? Everyone thinks that like this is new, 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:48.240 this is a hot this has been going on, Well, monogamy, 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:49.800 isn't you monogamy? Yeah? Right? 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:53.160 Has the kinks have all been happening? 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:56.920 I mean those romans, Yeah, they were doing some crazy things, 0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:57.760 super stuff. 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:01.840 So it was it was so interesting hearing them talk. 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:03.920 It's like everyone thinks that this is this brand new 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:06.159 idea of this that or whatever, and it's like, no, 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:07.560 there's been. 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:08.720 All of this stuff happening. 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.320 And I mean they found you know, dil those that 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:14.240 were like two thousand years old that they're not usable still, 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:19.720 but you know they've been doing oh they'd be dusty. 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:22.400 Yeah. So it's it's interesting. 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:25.439 I find the whole exploration of it really interesting that 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:28.119 it's like people are thinking it's it's like, what's this 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:31.320 new idea. It's like it's been around a really long time. Yep, 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:32.800 that's very true. 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:37.160 I think I know the answer to this already. Can 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:39.720 you ever see a time when you might turn round 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:43.640 to each other and and go, you know what I think? 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:47.119 I think I just want you for sure? And what 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:49.439 if the other one says, yeah, I'm not ready for that? 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:52.800 Well, yeah, I think it's like anything, it would be 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:56.040 a conversation. You know, it would not be something that 0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:59.639 would take us off guard, Like we wouldn't accidentally end 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:02.560 up in a situation where we were not really seeing 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:05.040 I do I about talking about these things because it 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:07.679 is a communication we. 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:10.120 You know, in like the name of our podcast, Evolving Love. 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:13.760 It's like, evolving doesn't mean evolving to become more and 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:16.080 more and more open to the point of, you know, 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:20.159 having very separate lives with separate partners. It's just that 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:24.520 it's an unfolding, changing thing, also dependent on circumstances, what's 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:29.119 happening in life, how busy we might be, health, hormones, 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:31.919 like all of these things, you know, play into things. 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:35.199 So like we definitely have periods of time where we do, 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:38.280