Speaker 1: If you don't feel a connection to any nominogamous concepts,
Speaker 1: and you've looked into it and you really make that
Speaker 1: choice to be monogamous with your partner, that's a beautiful thing,
Speaker 1: and that can be a wonderful and fulfilling and rich
Speaker 1: way to live your life. But for us, the most,
Speaker 1: you know, the authentic way that we can live our
Speaker 1: life with ourselves is to be non monogamous.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the heart of it. We would like to
Speaker 2: acknowledge the gartical people of the or nation, the traditional
Speaker 2: custodians of this land, and pay our respects to the elders,
Speaker 2: both past and present. Today's episode is a conversation about
Speaker 2: non monogamy, conscious relationships, and sexuality. We are joined by
Speaker 2: the hosts of the Evolving Love podcast, Abby and Liam.
Speaker 2: They still have been together for over thirteen years and
Speaker 2: have been consensually non monogamous for eleven of those years,
Speaker 2: and they are loving parents.
Speaker 3: They are And it was a chat that I was
Speaker 3: really really surprised by because I know we've had somewhat
Speaker 3: similar guess some before, and it is a bit of
Speaker 3: a touchy subject for a lot of people. You know,
Speaker 3: it feels very dangerous. It feels wrong to some people,
Speaker 3: and I really understand that point of view in one sense.
Speaker 4: But after talking to Abby and.
Speaker 3: Liam, it's not that I now want to be non monogamous,
Speaker 3: but the way they talk about it with so much
Speaker 3: love and care and consideration, and they why they are
Speaker 3: in an ethical non monogamous relationship, it really makes sense.
Speaker 3: And I think it's just in the it makes sense
Speaker 3: for them, do you know what I mean? And I
Speaker 3: think it's just about staying curious and open to all
Speaker 3: sorts of relationships. And that's something that I know you
Speaker 3: and I really want it encourage people to have, just
Speaker 3: to had the curiosity to what other people's lives are about.
Speaker 2: Indeed, indeed, well we got into the heart of it with.
Speaker 4: This, we did.
Speaker 5: We did.
Speaker 2: Let's let's have a listen to Abby and Liam.
Speaker 3: Okay, well, welcome you to the heart of it. Thank
Speaker 3: you so much for coming in and just exploring this
Speaker 3: really interesting topic.
Speaker 4: We've we've had a couple of other couples on that.
Speaker 3: Have explored non monogamy and been very positive about it.
Speaker 3: They have very much felt felt so so we just
Speaker 3: want to kind of get your journey into it. How
Speaker 3: did it begin for the both of you. This this
Speaker 3: ethical non monogamy B n M.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's part. That's part of when I've looked you
Speaker 2: guys up, I'm looking at the all these new terms.
Speaker 2: There's lots of there are a lot of the specificity
Speaker 2: of it fascinating. Anyway, how did it go? How did
Speaker 2: how did how did it begin?
Speaker 6: Well, first of all, thank you so much for having
Speaker 6: us the way that this unfolded FILEAM and I was
Speaker 6: when we first got together, we were in a monogamous relationship,
Speaker 6: and that was back in twenty twelve, and from the
Speaker 6: early days of our relationship we were very just open
Speaker 6: with our communication and sort of we wanted to cultivate
Speaker 6: and build a relationship where we could essentially talk about anything,
Speaker 6: So anything that might come up, or if in the
Speaker 6: future somebody might get a crush on somebody, or if
Speaker 6: there's some sort of fear or you know that you
Speaker 6: want to raise, or if there's some desire or kink
Speaker 6: that maybe you can't you know, you might feel a
Speaker 6: bit shy to talk about. We've always wanted to have
Speaker 6: the type of relationship where we could at least have
Speaker 6: those conversations, whether or not we act on them or not.
Speaker 6: And it was actually from that place of sharing and
Speaker 6: connecting and being really open with our communication that we
Speaker 6: just sort of created a space where we could start to,
Speaker 6: you know, have these conversations and then we just sort
Speaker 6: of organically started cultivating our own type of relationship. But
Speaker 6: the thing that was really interesting, I think for us
Speaker 6: was without having the language and the terminology, we both
Speaker 6: found that we were very compursive people, which compersian. It's
Speaker 6: a big word in nominogamy. It's like often positioned as
Speaker 6: the opposite of jealousy. It's like this sort of excitement.
Speaker 3: The first time the other day, that's so interesting.
Speaker 4: Yeah, great.
Speaker 6: It's sort of a it's kind of a foundational sort
Speaker 6: of emotional feeling where you feel, you know, if there's
Speaker 6: a scenario that might often cause jealousy, instead of feeling
Speaker 6: that jealousy, you might feel excitement or happiness for your
Speaker 6: partner's you know, connection with somebody else, or pleasure. So
Speaker 6: even though we weren't acting on that, we didn't have
Speaker 6: the language around it, you know, certain scenarios that I
Speaker 6: thought of that might make me jealous. I was like, actually,
Speaker 6: I'm finding this to be quite a positive thing that
Speaker 6: I'm experienced and then when I shared that with you
Speaker 6: felt similarly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we both really felt on the same page. As
Speaker 1: soon as we started to have those initial conversations, it
Speaker 1: was amazing how aligned we actually were, and I think
Speaker 1: from that kind of from that point, we started to
Speaker 1: then look at how it would look actually exploring these
Speaker 1: things with other people.
Speaker 3: Does it do you think it comes from your upbringing?
Speaker 3: Did you Did you have an upbringing that was extremely
Speaker 3: strict or perhaps the opposite, like, where does that come from?
Speaker 4: With the both of you?
Speaker 6: For me, I've I've had a very like I wasn't
Speaker 6: brought up in a you know, a religious family or
Speaker 6: anything like that, and I've always had very clear lines
Speaker 6: of communication about things with my parents, so I didn't
Speaker 6: feel sort of concerned, you know, too much. And I
Speaker 6: think because it was Liam and I together that I
Speaker 6: didn't have a sort of an element of shame for
Speaker 6: thinking about this. It felt like something just different and
Speaker 6: interesting that we could explore.
Speaker 1: And for Liam, you had Yeah, I never really had
Speaker 1: this kind of a strong religious back, so there wasn't
Speaker 1: anything that I had to unpack when it comes tom
Speaker 1: like a religious standpoint, And I think I grew up
Speaker 1: in a very kind of judgment free household about different relationships,
Speaker 1: So I didn't necessarily feel any kind of strictures around
Speaker 1: you know, it's a bad thing to think about these
Speaker 1: things or so it really just allowed us to have
Speaker 1: these very open conversations with each other without that element,
Speaker 1: as Abby was saying, of that kind of any shame pieces.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And how has your relationship changed since you
Speaker 3: decided to be non monogamous? Has what's happened for the
Speaker 3: both of you?
Speaker 1: Well, a big thing for us was when you start
Speaker 1: to explore these types of things, it's a very tempting
Speaker 1: thing to kind of jump into the deep end of
Speaker 1: non monogamy, so to go, I'm going to start dating everyone.
Speaker 5: We're going to do all the things.
Speaker 1: We're going to go to all the parties and just
Speaker 1: be really explorative. But what we wanted to do was
Speaker 1: very consciously move into those spaces. So for us, it
Speaker 1: was actually very important to kind of talk about all
Speaker 1: the theoretical things, like different kind of almost like game
Speaker 1: planning what it would look like if we were to
Speaker 1: invite someone else into the relationship or to have these
Speaker 1: experiences with other people. So for us, it was like
Speaker 1: we were trying to kind of temper some of our
Speaker 1: initial excitement, because it isn't a really exciting thing when
Speaker 1: you start to open up and to just have this
Speaker 1: like very open line of communication so that we could really,
Speaker 1: you know, get into the nitty gritty of how we
Speaker 1: were responding, even hypothetically to situations that might arise, because.
Speaker 2: At that point it would be hypothetical. And always when
Speaker 2: you're faced with the actual truth of it, it's one
Speaker 2: thing to say, yeah, honey, I'm fine with it. You
Speaker 2: go and suddenly Barries in the picture. Yeah, or maybe
Speaker 2: it's not Barry, maybe it could be Birthny, you know,
Speaker 2: you know, and you're going, now, I'm actually, oh, this
Speaker 2: is actually happening, and I haven't done it yet, but
Speaker 2: I'm watching my partner do it. That's a different thing
Speaker 2: to go from hypothetical to action.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and sometimes it's hard to meet the right Barry.
Speaker 1: You know. It's one of those things where like we
Speaker 1: had a kind of a very solid unit with each other,
Speaker 1: like a very monogamous unit, and then we were living
Speaker 1: in New York at the time, and part of the
Speaker 1: thing was like, how do we meet other people in
Speaker 1: a really ethical way so that we can explore some
Speaker 1: of these ideas, so to meet a barrier or a
Speaker 1: birth or you know, whoever it might be. You know,
Speaker 1: we were kind of initially started going to different events
Speaker 1: and talks, and we went to some Estaprel talks and
Speaker 1: she was talking about and we love esteprel and so
Speaker 1: there was a lot of kind of meeting people organically
Speaker 1: who also practice this type of relationship, which opened the
Speaker 1: doors for us.
Speaker 6: And that was something that really surprised us as well,
Speaker 6: because it's when you hear about non monogamous relationships, you
Speaker 6: can often think, oh, you know, it's looking out outwoods,
Speaker 6: or it's only about sex or this or that. But
Speaker 6: for us, it was like really looking deeper into our
Speaker 6: own relationship and who we are and all of the
Speaker 6: different things that come up when you're starting to explore
Speaker 6: this and have these conversations, and it sort of, you know,
Speaker 6: let us down the path of just being so curious
Speaker 6: relationships in general.
Speaker 3: So you've been together thirteen years, yes, and you're eleven
Speaker 3: years of that has been non monogamous, and you're still
Speaker 3: clearly together very much, So yeah, what is it about
Speaker 3: you that you want to stay together, you know, and
Speaker 3: not just go off and be with those partners that
Speaker 3: you have been with. What draws you back to each
Speaker 3: other all the time?
Speaker 6: Well, we have a deep companionship and a shared life together,
Speaker 6: and we are lovers, we are a married couple. Like
Speaker 6: we are very very close, and like we still hold
Speaker 6: a lot of those like I want to grow old
Speaker 6: with Liam, Like that is something that we treasure, that
Speaker 6: is like very very dear to our heart and important
Speaker 6: to us now because of who we are and because
Speaker 6: we can, you know, navigate this in this way. I
Speaker 6: feel like we can actually you know, we can hold
Speaker 6: the space for non monogamy as well, and you know,
Speaker 6: there is that deep commitment to each other that in
Speaker 6: many ways, I feel like I'm very committed to Lim,
Speaker 6: I'm not committed to monogamy, and that it's actually this
Speaker 6: sort of the way that we navigate it, navigate our
Speaker 6: relationship sort of reinforces that closeness. It's sort of like
Speaker 6: not that it's an antidote to anything, but it's sort
Speaker 6: of it For me. It brings us actually a sense
Speaker 6: of deeper security into the relationship.
Speaker 1: And in preparation for this interview, I was listening to
Speaker 1: one of your episodes and Cam you made the point
Speaker 1: that you every day you wake up and choose to
Speaker 1: be married to each other. It's like a very conscious choice.
Speaker 1: And I think for us any non monogamous explorations, it's
Speaker 1: a very conscious discussion. We don't just fall into these situations.
Speaker 1: It's very deliberate, and even our commitment to each other,
Speaker 1: we're just consciously choosing every.
Speaker 5: Day we wake up and go, this is great, this
Speaker 5: is beautiful.
Speaker 1: You know, we have so much love and support for
Speaker 1: each other, like, let's just keep writing this beautiful thing out.
Speaker 2: I can find it hard to get my head around
Speaker 2: because the eye idea of sharing a physical or sex
Speaker 2: sexual life with somebody else or having Ali do the
Speaker 2: same thing, ow's my person, you know. So basically if
Speaker 2: you're bringing someone else in like Aby, I'll use you
Speaker 2: as an example. So Mel Barry is going to come
Speaker 2: come in and come into the relationship. Do you how
Speaker 2: do you how do you work on on being that
Speaker 2: emotional intimacy? How do you do you temper that? And
Speaker 2: then do you tell Barry stuff that you don't tell Liam?
Speaker 2: And I would find that very hard and and and
Speaker 2: then say if there's another one, you know, let's Chris
Speaker 2: has joined as well. I mean I don't know how
Speaker 2: that you can explain to me how that works. But
Speaker 2: but that sort of sharing your heart and being there
Speaker 2: clearly it's with you too. Is it also with Barry
Speaker 2: and could it be with Chris?
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 6: So the way that we practice our non monogamy, it's
Speaker 6: we're not in we're not full on practicing polyamory where
Speaker 6: we're maintaining these you know, very in depth like partner
Speaker 6: building relationships in the same way that we have our marriage.
Speaker 6: Like we have our marriage, we have our partnership and
Speaker 6: our connections with other people whilst very meaningful and quite
Speaker 6: you know, long lasting, it's more like a deep friendship
Speaker 6: that does have an intimacy element to it as well,
Speaker 6: you know, and we're very honest with you know, anybody
Speaker 6: who would potentially be dating with partners where it's like
Speaker 6: I'm not going to be building a life in the
Speaker 6: same way. And I think it's really understandable that you
Speaker 6: would feel like you can't understand how we you know,
Speaker 6: how to comprehend this because when you're in a monogamous
Speaker 6: relationship and that sort of the framework that you understand,
Speaker 6: sometimes people can think that it's like having double of that.
Speaker 6: So it's like how do you have the time, how
Speaker 6: do you have the emotional bandit? How do you have
Speaker 6: double of that? We don't have double of this? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 6: this is our marriage.
Speaker 2: Okay, do you feel the same way.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean there's so many things to talk about when
Speaker 1: it comes to this, in particular with the masculinity piece
Speaker 1: as well, because I think there's so much social conditioning
Speaker 1: that teaches us to be super possessive of our partner,
Speaker 1: you know, like the most in love we can be
Speaker 1: is to fight off any possible suitors, Like if someone
Speaker 1: looks at Abby in a weird way to you know,
Speaker 1: there's this like kind of trope of chasing after that
Speaker 1: person and proving your love for your partner. And I
Speaker 1: think once you start to really interrogate some of those things,
Speaker 1: you can start to think about, you know, like what
Speaker 1: of that is like down to kind of patriarchy potentially,
Speaker 1: or kind of the social conditioning of monogamy. Like we
Speaker 1: grow up and we're just told, you know, you should
Speaker 1: be in a monogamous relationship, and whether that's down to
Speaker 1: religion or just society conditioning. And I think once you
Speaker 1: start interrogating some of these things and trying to kind
Speaker 1: of decouple it a little bits were saying, like we
Speaker 1: think about things, we start at everything as a friendship level,
Speaker 1: and when you were saying, you know, like you can
Speaker 1: probably you probably have really beautiful conversations with your close
Speaker 1: guy friends or female friends that you have in your life,
Speaker 1: and for us, like you probably might not necessarily feel
Speaker 1: threatened by those really beautiful emotional friendships that you have
Speaker 1: with others, and for us that the sex or intimacy
Speaker 1: on top of that is just really an extension of
Speaker 1: that connection. So we're just open to that extension. I
Speaker 1: guess I think.
Speaker 3: It's probably it probably gets a bad name in the
Speaker 3: sense that when you've got like the cults where it's
Speaker 3: like one man, you know what I mean, the polyamory
Speaker 3: cult where it's one man with twenty five sixteen year olds,
Speaker 3: where it's like people immediately would probably go, oh, this
Speaker 3: is what you're into, you know what I mean, Where
Speaker 3: you're talking about something very very very different to that.
Speaker 4: It's like the complete opposite end to that.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's getting past, you know, being open and
Speaker 3: getting past what what the idea of it is in
Speaker 3: a lot of ways, because.
Speaker 2: People you get one chance at the first impression, you know,
Speaker 2: and if the first impression is some Culty movie that
Speaker 2: you've watched Jim Jones and think and the cordial the
Speaker 2: look cool aid, you know, it's sort of that sort
Speaker 2: of thing. Well, that's what this is. And it's a
Speaker 2: lot easier, I think it's a lot easier to reconcile
Speaker 2: something by throwing it into a label, throwing into that.
Speaker 2: So what you're talking about, it's a lot more nuanced
Speaker 2: and collaborative and collaborative, and the language is very specific.
Speaker 2: Like when we talked to you, you said a lot of acronyms,
Speaker 2: a lot of do you find yourself going, oh this
Speaker 2: are you thinking about it a lot? Because there's so
Speaker 2: many things that sort of we talk about it all
Speaker 2: the time.
Speaker 6: Look, we don't talk about it all the time. We
Speaker 6: have other things happening in our life and parents as well.
Speaker 2: So you want to see how that works.
Speaker 6: So we don't talk about it all the time, but
Speaker 6: it is something that we enjoy talking about and we
Speaker 6: like to, you know, push our edges a little bit
Speaker 6: and you know, see where things are at. And in
Speaker 6: the context of non monogamy, there is always something to
Speaker 6: talk about. So you know, even if it's revisiting something,
Speaker 6: you know, in our mind, a memory that happened years ago,
Speaker 6: and how we would sort of connect with that now
Speaker 6: if we were to do it, you know, if we
Speaker 6: were to be different or not. So there is always
Speaker 6: an interesting aspect of it. And I think you know
Speaker 6: as well as you know, there is that cult association
Speaker 6: as you were saying, I think that there can also
Speaker 6: be that resistance to hearing about non monogamy too, because
Speaker 6: often the only sort of framework that a lot of
Speaker 6: people have for nonmennogamy is if there is you know,
Speaker 6: it's a story of infidelity, it's a story of pain.
Speaker 6: We only sort of hear about these specific types of
Speaker 6: you know, scenarios where there's some sort of betrayal, and
Speaker 6: I think it is one of the It is a
Speaker 6: type of it is a way of being where when
Speaker 6: people do hear it, they put themselves in that situation
Speaker 6: and sort of imagine or just how they might feel
Speaker 6: if it was them. And because they don't have that
Speaker 6: compersian and they don't have that understanding and that point
Speaker 6: of reference, it can it can feel uncomfortable. And that's
Speaker 6: why I think it is good to have a chat
Speaker 6: about these things. Because nothing is black and white.
Speaker 1: And it is important for there to be representation of
Speaker 1: different relationship structures. And this is why we talk about
Speaker 1: it through our podcasts and why we're really interested in
Speaker 1: talking to people with you know, all across the spectrum.
Speaker 1: We've had biblical scholars that we've talked to about non
Speaker 1: monogamy and how they would feel about it, and you know,
Speaker 1: we've talked to people who are monogamous because that's That's
Speaker 1: another thing is the misconception that because we're talking about nominogamy,
Speaker 1: we're like crusaders for like everyone joining the cult of
Speaker 1: non monogamy, which is absolutely not the case. It's a
Speaker 1: great name for a band that would Yeah, maybe our
Speaker 1: next band, Oh there we go, We're going to steal
Speaker 1: that for our new theme tune. But I think it
Speaker 1: is really important that we say that because there we
Speaker 1: know so many wonderful monogamous people in beautiful monogamous relationships,
Speaker 1: and the thing that we really care about is that
Speaker 1: people are consciously choosing monogamy. It's like you were saying, like,
Speaker 1: if you don't feel a connection to any nom monogamous
Speaker 1: concepts and you've looked into it, and you really make
Speaker 1: that choice to be monogamous with your partner, that's a
Speaker 1: beautiful thing, and that that can be a wonderful and
Speaker 1: fulfilling and rich way to live your life. But for us,
Speaker 1: the most, you know, the authentic way that we can
Speaker 1: live our life with ourselves is to be non monogamous.
Speaker 3: We had an amazing sex historian on the podcast, her
Speaker 3: and her mum who wrote this amazing book like Sex
Speaker 3: through the History, and they were both like, nothing is new.
Speaker 3: What's happening now? Everyone thinks that like this is new,
Speaker 3: this is a hot this has been going on, Well, monogamy,
Speaker 3: isn't you monogamy? Yeah? Right?
Speaker 4: Has the kinks have all been happening?
Speaker 5: I mean those romans, Yeah, they were doing some crazy things,
Speaker 5: super stuff.
Speaker 3: So it was it was so interesting hearing them talk.
Speaker 3: It's like everyone thinks that this is this brand new
Speaker 3: idea of this that or whatever, and it's like, no,
Speaker 3: there's been.
Speaker 4: All of this stuff happening.
Speaker 3: And I mean they found you know, dil those that
Speaker 3: were like two thousand years old that they're not usable still,
Speaker 3: but you know they've been doing oh they'd be dusty.
Speaker 4: Yeah. So it's it's interesting.
Speaker 3: I find the whole exploration of it really interesting that
Speaker 3: it's like people are thinking it's it's like, what's this
Speaker 3: new idea. It's like it's been around a really long time. Yep,
Speaker 3: that's very true.
Speaker 2: I think I know the answer to this already. Can
Speaker 2: you ever see a time when you might turn round
Speaker 2: to each other and and go, you know what I think?
Speaker 2: I think I just want you for sure? And what
Speaker 2: if the other one says, yeah, I'm not ready for that?
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I think it's like anything, it would be
Speaker 1: a conversation. You know, it would not be something that
Speaker 1: would take us off guard, Like we wouldn't accidentally end
Speaker 1: up in a situation where we were not really seeing
Speaker 1: I do I about talking about these things because it
Speaker 1: is a communication we.
Speaker 6: You know, in like the name of our podcast, Evolving Love.
Speaker 6: It's like, evolving doesn't mean evolving to become more and
Speaker 6: more and more open to the point of, you know,
Speaker 6: having very separate lives with separate partners. It's just that
Speaker 6: it's an unfolding, changing thing, also dependent on circumstances, what's
Speaker 6: happening in life, how busy we might be, health, hormones,
Speaker 6: like all of these things, you know, play into things.
Speaker 6: So like we definitely have periods of time where we do,
Speaker 6: you know, close up a bit and we become a
Speaker 6: bit more monogamous, you know, during pregnancy and during you know,
Speaker 6: having a newborn and all of that was a very
Speaker 6: us time. And then as things felt a little more
Speaker 6: you know, coming into a little bit more independence again,
Speaker 6: in very slow ways, we started opening up again. So
Speaker 6: you know, we're not always expanding to the point of
Speaker 6: being extremely open. It's it's a very flexible, fluid situation.
Speaker 3: And what's your how old is You've got a boy? Right, yeah,
Speaker 3: he's six, he's six? What is you know, obviously you're
Speaker 3: very open communicators. How is this something that you will
Speaker 3: feel you need to share with him at some point?
Speaker 3: I mean, does he meet your other partners or how
Speaker 3: does that work in a parenting style.
Speaker 6: So we have a very monogamous home. We don't live
Speaker 6: with other partners. We're not really we're not affectionate with
Speaker 6: other partners in front of him. It's not really, that's
Speaker 6: not really what it's about for us, Not that we're
Speaker 6: deliberately trying to keep people at bay. He has met
Speaker 6: different partners of ours, but in the framework of you know,
Speaker 6: there's a group of us with our friends and we're
Speaker 6: getting together with their children. We're having a barbecue, we're
Speaker 6: having that gathering. So everything is always age appropriate, you know,
Speaker 6: Like Leam and I don't stand and make out with
Speaker 6: each other in front of him, and we wouldn't do
Speaker 6: that with other people in front of him. You know,
Speaker 6: as he gets older, we will share with him in
Speaker 6: gentle ways. You know, there's many different ways for people
Speaker 6: to have a relationship, but to us, the important thing
Speaker 6: is to be honest and to be in your integrity
Speaker 6: and to also be who you are. So he knows that,
Speaker 6: you know, he has he has a gay auntie and
Speaker 6: her partner. That's just normal to him. He doesn't have
Speaker 6: any shame on anything like that. So you know, we're
Speaker 6: hoping that would be the same for relationships.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So have you have you had any challenging situations
Speaker 2: with like even well I'm sure not so much with
Speaker 2: the teachers, but certainly family members and possibly other parents
Speaker 2: or caregivers. You know, there have been situations where you've
Speaker 2: had challenges and even felt the need to explain or
Speaker 2: how do you deal with those sort of things?
Speaker 1: Well, I think because we have a public profile and
Speaker 1: we do appear in the media, like people know, you know,
Speaker 1: it's school drop off. They probably go, those are the
Speaker 1: no monogamous parents.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Canberra is a small town.
Speaker 5: It is a small town.
Speaker 1: But what you start to realize with us speaking publicly
Speaker 1: is people are much more open minded than you would think,
Speaker 1: you know. And sometimes it's the people that you think
Speaker 1: would be the most close minded, like some of the
Speaker 1: parents of our son's friends who are very religious. Once
Speaker 1: they found out we've had those discussions, we go, oh,
Speaker 1: we have a podcast, you know, it's about non monogamy
Speaker 1: and alternative relationships. They are beautifully inquisitive and they know
Speaker 1: us as parents and they know that we are caring
Speaker 1: and loving parents, and our son comes first. And the
Speaker 1: fact that we talk about this, you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: not our whole life, you know, talking about nom monogamy
Speaker 1: isn't our whole life. And because they already have a
Speaker 1: frame of reference for us as parents, they go, oh,
Speaker 1: they just do things a little bit differently and kind
Speaker 1: of move along with their day.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, we haven't come up against anything negative in our
Speaker 6: day to day life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 5: It's online. That's where the craziest online.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, people were sitting in the dark
Speaker 2: on the keyboard stuff.
Speaker 4: Do you get? What sort of stuff do you get?
Speaker 4: Like does it really have?
Speaker 6: Like you shouldn't be parents, This isn't love.
Speaker 1: I'm Jesus without the morals, Without the morals, that's the thing.
Speaker 5: That's a good one. That was a good one.
Speaker 3: Sometimes let's go with that.
Speaker 5: We'll support your band.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean sometimes sometimes the online commentary does range
Speaker 1: from very sad to like, you know, funny and so
Speaker 1: and the witty kind of takedowns of the other funny
Speaker 1: ones like like we.
Speaker 5: Were on the project.
Speaker 1: We were on the project, and as part of the filming,
Speaker 1: I had to play soccer with us son. But the
Speaker 1: producer for the project all you could find was a
Speaker 1: basketball and I was like, oh no, that's going to
Speaker 1: look super weird playing basketball. And then so they filmed
Speaker 1: it and then they put it on the project and
Speaker 1: then all these comments were like this idiot doesn't even
Speaker 1: know what a football.
Speaker 5: Is, and I was thinking, I know what a football is,
Speaker 5: like so I do yeah, yeah, And I was like madribl.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 1: I was trying to like do I combat these comments?
Speaker 1: And at a certain point you just have to and
Speaker 1: I think it did affect like I'm a sensitive person
Speaker 1: and that the criticisms on me.
Speaker 5: As a father were very hard to hear, sure.
Speaker 1: And because I really do that's a huge part of
Speaker 1: my life and something I care deeply about. So I
Speaker 1: think those were, in all seriousness, quite quite difficult to
Speaker 1: kind of come across.
Speaker 3: Who do you find it the most outspoken? Is it
Speaker 3: the women or the men?
Speaker 4: Is there? Or is it fairly balanced in a negative way?
Speaker 6: In a negative way, Oh, I feel like it's quite balanced.
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's fairly even handed. But
Speaker 1: there is a demographic like kind of shift. So it's
Speaker 1: so in particular like on Facebook, I guess because it
Speaker 1: captures a lot of you know, some older demographics. There
Speaker 1: was you know, I would say a lot of the
Speaker 1: people were fifties plus. And this is also because they
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have a frame of reference maybe for non monogamy.
Speaker 1: So just seeing the title non monogamous Mother, I think
Speaker 1: was the title of the video, just triggered them so much,
Speaker 1: even without watching it, they would engage with it almost
Speaker 1: as if they knew who we were, how we approached things.
Speaker 1: And then they just have this kind of really intense
Speaker 1: reaction because you know that maybe they had never had
Speaker 1: examples of this before.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I would imagine it's going to hit a
Speaker 3: nerve for those people who've been cheated on. They're going
Speaker 3: to go, oh, yeah, well my husband was non monogamous too,
Speaker 3: because he cheated on me, which is very different to
Speaker 3: your yes talking about in your agreement.
Speaker 6: So yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4: What inspired you to start I.
Speaker 3: Think I kind of know this the Evolving Love podcast.
Speaker 6: Well, I started sharing with some other mum friends of
Speaker 6: mine when we moved back to Canberra.
Speaker 2: And when you said back and where did you move
Speaker 2: back from?
Speaker 6: We were in New York City.
Speaker 5: That's a big shit.
Speaker 2: It was a big it was New York City to camera,
Speaker 2: yes there's no slot on camera, but just moving from
Speaker 2: America to Australia is a big shop.
Speaker 6: Sure for sure.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 6: So so moving back to Canberra, which is essentially a wonderful,
Speaker 6: fantastic cultural town. You know, it's it's not a big city.
Speaker 6: But yeah, just sharing with other mum friends and of course,
Speaker 6: you know we're with the babies, we talk about relationships
Speaker 6: and marriages and everything sort of comes up. And you know,
Speaker 6: I had a few friends that were like do you
Speaker 6: and Liam like things seem really good, like what's sort
Speaker 6: of happening? And I decided to just be honest and
Speaker 6: share a little bit about our non monogamous relationship. And
Speaker 6: I thought that I would be quite heavily judged, you know,
Speaker 6: these were the sort of the high school friends, and
Speaker 6: instead I was met with a lot of curiosity, in
Speaker 6: a lot of harh that kind of makes sense the
Speaker 6: way the way you explain it, or I'd never considered
Speaker 6: it like that. And then I started writing about it,
Speaker 6: and I started a little private Instagram page, you know,
Speaker 6: initially for women, and then that sort of grew and
Speaker 6: you know, the thing with it was you could follow
Speaker 6: if you were a friend of a friend. So I
Speaker 6: liked the idea that a conversation would have had to
Speaker 6: have happened to be able to sort of follow along. Yeah,
Speaker 6: And I just started writing about it and sharing about it.
Speaker 6: And I think the more that you can be yourself
Speaker 6: and share about these things than other people who were,
Speaker 6: you know, also non monogamous and just keeping it quite
Speaker 6: under wraps, you know, felt like sharing as well and
Speaker 6: reaching out. And there is a big community of non
Speaker 6: monogamous people and non monogamous parents, but it's very underground
Speaker 6: because the judgment is very high and people feel protective
Speaker 6: of their love, they feel protective of their parenting.
Speaker 1: But the community aspect is a big thing for us
Speaker 1: as well. And you know, we run regular conversation nights
Speaker 1: in Canberra and in Sydney as well, and we did
Speaker 1: one last night actually in Newtown and what was incredible
Speaker 1: was that we deliberately kind of capped them to about
Speaker 1: twenty people come along and people it's for some of
Speaker 1: them it's the first time they've ever been able to
Speaker 1: share about their non monogamy in public without the feeling
Speaker 1: of being judged. And it is a really powerful thing,
Speaker 1: like people going you know, I grew up in the church.
Speaker 1: Some of them are still involved in the church, but
Speaker 1: they have this side of them that they feel they
Speaker 1: can't really live authentic lives and it's such a shame
Speaker 1: and I think it is really important and the work
Speaker 1: that Abby does with her writing on sub Stack and
Speaker 1: all this type of thing, like to destigmatize these alternative
Speaker 1: ways of doing things and to make people do it
Speaker 1: just to allow them to feel seen. You know, it's
Speaker 1: such an important part of why we started Evolving Love
Speaker 1: as well. I think, you know, just having these conversations
Speaker 1: with people and just you know, allowing people to kind
Speaker 1: of share these really unique experiences, it's been really powerful.
Speaker 2: And I look, I imagine that through these sort of evenings
Speaker 2: and the other community experiences with what you're talking about
Speaker 2: with the Mother's group, that you've inspired people to open
Speaker 2: up and bring that into their bring it into their lives.
Speaker 6: Yeah, there have been people that have you know, decided
Speaker 6: to open up their relationship or they challenging their sort
Speaker 6: of ideas that they'd had about monogamy because they can
Speaker 6: be you know, when you start talking about this stuff,
Speaker 6: then you can also turn to the well, why are
Speaker 6: we monogamous? Is it because mum and dad were monogamous?
Speaker 6: Is it because you know all of the couples on
Speaker 6: TV monogamous in Disney and all of that. So there
Speaker 6: can be a lot of Yeah, there can be a
Speaker 6: lot of sort of questioning that happens. But our conversation
Speaker 6: evenings also attract monogamous people as well who like the
Speaker 6: idea of the sort of emotional work or exploration of like,
Speaker 6: you know, emotionally exploring non monogamy within the context of
Speaker 6: their relationship because you know, sort of like living in
Speaker 6: that fantasy land because it's like, just because something you like,
Speaker 6: the idea of something, or it's a fantasy of that
Speaker 6: you might have, you don't necessarily have to then bring
Speaker 6: that into reality. What sometimes works in the fantasy doesn't translate.
Speaker 2: So yeah, because my fantasy is always end that very bad.
Speaker 2: I go down the road, and I'll go down that
Speaker 2: road and go what would happen if me go, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's not good?
Speaker 5: Yeah, but it's enjoyable. Is it enjoyable going down the road?
Speaker 1: Though?
Speaker 2: Sometimes for a little bit and then and then it's like, yeah, no,
Speaker 2: that's not what I want. Yeah, I want that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I want that, you know because.
Speaker 4: Even if the fantasy is like me playing golf with.
Speaker 2: You, Oh no, that's a definite. That's that's I stay
Speaker 2: on that road. That's a strong fantasy, that's what we
Speaker 2: might do. What we might do up in the bushes
Speaker 2: on the thirteenth when we played that might be fun.
Speaker 2: I can go with that one all the way.
Speaker 3: Have you had any with the podcast? Have you had
Speaker 3: any sort of surprising or particularly challenging guess that you
Speaker 3: don't have to name them, but anything that's been really
Speaker 3: hard or challenging to deal with.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we had we had a really profound conversation with
Speaker 1: a guy called Andrew Gerzer. He's a disability advocate and
Speaker 1: he's kind of a queer disabled. He's got multiple sclerosis,
Speaker 1: so he's wheelchair bound, he's in carry and cerebral palsy. Sorry,
Speaker 1: and so you know, it was quite an arresting conversation
Speaker 1: for us to have talking about his ability to access
Speaker 1: you know, sex workers for his mental health, because that's
Speaker 1: the only way he can have these sexual interactions because
Speaker 1: of his disability. And I think conversations like that, I
Speaker 1: think we broke down in tears afterwards, like it was
Speaker 1: such it was just so you know, affecting on an
Speaker 1: emotional level and just kind of highlighted the importance of
Speaker 1: talking to people who have very different experiences from your own.
Speaker 1: I think that for me was a really big conversation.
Speaker 6: And he also identifies as somebody who is non monogamous
Speaker 6: but isn't practicing non monogamy, so it was very Yeah,
Speaker 6: so many interesting insights from him. I would say some
Speaker 6: of it hasn't happened often, but I think less so
Speaker 6: on the podcast, but sometimes with some people I think
Speaker 6: where I sort of struggle sometimes in the conversation is
Speaker 6: if there are people who sort of say that this
Speaker 6: is a better way, you know, if there are people
Speaker 6: who are like, polyamory is a more evolved way of being,
Speaker 6: it's a better way of being in a relationship, And
Speaker 6: I just don't connect with that at all, you know,
Speaker 6: it's such a Having a relationship is such an individual experience.
Speaker 6: You bring your whole history into it, and everybody it's
Speaker 6: going to be different for everybody. So yeah, I don't
Speaker 6: connect with that.
Speaker 2: Let's just assume for a moment that this is this
Speaker 2: is one I one first episode. Can you can you
Speaker 2: just you just mentioned because you're only I'm asking this speech,
Speaker 2: you mentioned polyamory for me, who's not very well studied
Speaker 2: in this certainly not experienced in it. What is the
Speaker 2: difference between polyamory and non monogamous relationship?
Speaker 6: So they all fall under the umbrella term of ethical
Speaker 6: non monogamy, but people often use ethical non monogamy or
Speaker 6: E and M now as this sort of way of
Speaker 6: like having friends where you might be intimate like you'd
Speaker 6: have lovers, but it's not necessarily full on building a
Speaker 6: life together committed relationship. Polyamory which is like polyamory, is
Speaker 6: like many loving relationships, like many ongoing loving relationships. So
Speaker 6: the umbrella term is ethical non monogamy, but people casually
Speaker 6: use it as something that's a little bit not as
Speaker 6: escalated as polyamory as well, so different to swinging, like
Speaker 6: a bit more of an ongoing connections. I would say, yeah, okay,
Speaker 6: but not full on polyamory. And then there's open relationship,
Speaker 6: and then there's don't ask, don't tell, And then.
Speaker 2: I guess that's that's certain. Don't ask, don't tell. Is
Speaker 2: that's there's an agreement there isn't there. It's just I
Speaker 2: guess the shit hits the fan when someone finds out
Speaker 2: don't ask, don't tell.
Speaker 5: Well, I mean it's an arrange.
Speaker 2: Weird, wouldn't it what?
Speaker 1: It's an interesting arrangement, and I mean it is very
Speaker 1: ethically done in the sense that there's an agreement between
Speaker 1: the couple.
Speaker 5: Well that's the hope that they will get.
Speaker 1: To experience this, you know, these relationships, but there's just
Speaker 1: no kind of conversation directly dressing that with the partner.
Speaker 1: So it is a very complex landscape to navigate, and
Speaker 1: we don't practice that. Don't ask, don't tell obviously, Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're I love to.
Speaker 6: We love to share about things. You know, if Liam
Speaker 6: goes on a date with somebody and has a connection,
Speaker 6: I want to know about that. I'm interested and I'm
Speaker 6: interested in what comes up for him or what he
Speaker 6: might share. And you know, sometimes I see a different
Speaker 6: aspect of Liam or he'll say, oh, you know, and
Speaker 6: she asked me this, and we had this conversation and
Speaker 6: then it made me think about that, and there's that
Speaker 6: moment where I'm like, oh, gosh, you know, I hadn't
Speaker 6: thought about you in that way, or we haven't spoken
Speaker 6: about that in a while. So, you know, because I
Speaker 6: guess the you know, a bit of a thing around
Speaker 6: it is that, you know, when you connect with different people,
Speaker 6: different people sort of you can share different aspects of
Speaker 6: yourself with different people. So even though Liam and I
Speaker 6: are so familiar and I feel like I know him,
Speaker 6: you know, so deeply, and I do, there might still
Speaker 6: be you know, new things that come up for you
Speaker 6: if you're in conversation with someone else, because they're a
Speaker 6: different person and they're engaging with you in a different way.
Speaker 2: So which comes back to and I know that you
Speaker 2: get asked this and about the jealousy aspect. And then
Speaker 2: so for someone who's not has evolved, they're feeling they
Speaker 2: still feel that that. I might say, I use the
Speaker 2: word evolved in terms of evolving a jealous standpoint. You talk,
Speaker 2: what's the word calm Compersian? Right, So I imagine I'm
Speaker 2: putting Ali and I in this situation, and Ow's now
Speaker 2: sitting with another fellow, and he and she comes home,
Speaker 2: and I go, how to go, you know, with old mate?
Speaker 2: And already I can feel myself done. How to go
Speaker 2: with old mate? You know, you weren't with me sort
Speaker 2: of being oh, he was great. He asked me about
Speaker 2: X y Z. Now I'm already self flagellating, going fuck,
Speaker 2: I should have asked her about why she's gonna like
Speaker 2: him way better than me. I'm going to be out
Speaker 2: the door now.
Speaker 1: I would almost take the hypothetical back a step. I
Speaker 1: would say, let's say we're on the golf course and
Speaker 1: Barry is playing. Yeah exactly, we're going to start, okay,
Speaker 1: and you guys are playing around together, and you are
Speaker 1: at the thirteenth hole okay, and Barry is. Barry is
Speaker 1: on the other other green, but he can kind of
Speaker 1: see over to you guys on the thirteenth hole. That
Speaker 1: would be the moment to start to be like, how
Speaker 1: would you feel if Barry was just on another hole
Speaker 1: seeing what's going on in the you know, on the
Speaker 1: thirteenth hole. You know, that would be the moment to
Speaker 1: be like, how do we feel about like the exhibitionism
Speaker 1: of that, and how would we howoud we feel about
Speaker 1: that inside ourselves before jumping to like the most intense
Speaker 1: version of the scenario, where it's like, you know, because
Speaker 1: because sometimes like that could be really exciting once you
Speaker 1: start to kind of dip your feet into those conversational
Speaker 1: fantasy territories. And I would say, you know, something that
Speaker 1: we say to people is like, just explore that. It
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be full send. You know, you don't
Speaker 1: have to imagine being in an orgy of two hundred people.
Speaker 1: You know, It's it's like you can really just kind
Speaker 1: of explore these concepts.
Speaker 5: Yeah, there we go. That can happen to the golf
Speaker 5: course at the club afterwards.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, both of you. Is it exciting sexually when
Speaker 3: you're like, when you're attracted to another woman and you're
Speaker 3: having a great time with her, does that excite you sexually?
Speaker 3: Or is it more just you're happy that that Liam's happy.
Speaker 3: Is there a sexual excitement to it as well?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean everybody is different. For me, there is.
Speaker 6: That is sort of how Compersian looks for me, more
Speaker 6: so than the thought of Liam forming a deep loving
Speaker 6: bond where they're like, you know, having They're having big
Speaker 6: getaways and going for picnics and all these sort of
Speaker 6: non sexual activities. While I think that's really lovely and
Speaker 6: I'm not I'm not like against it, it's not really
Speaker 6: that's a more neutral space for me. And then depend
Speaker 6: and if I'm say I'm pre menstrual or things like that,
Speaker 6: those jealousy feelings that come up for nearly everybody will
Speaker 6: get exacerbated. So it's also very interesting for me with
Speaker 6: my hormonal landscape sort of how I sort of it's
Speaker 6: like the Compersian and the jealousy knobs. You know, they're
Speaker 6: going up and down and you know all of that.
Speaker 6: So trying to be gentle on myself with that. And
Speaker 6: Liam's always been aware of that too, so being sensitive
Speaker 6: to each other. But I think a lot of it
Speaker 6: also comes down to who the person is, you know,
Speaker 6: who who you know at the moment you know, and
Speaker 6: for a while now, Liam has a wonderful lover and
Speaker 6: she's also our friend, and she dates other people, but
Speaker 6: we also we go for coffee together, the three of us.
Speaker 6: Sometimes her and I go and right together. We have
Speaker 6: that baseline of friendship. I trust her, I have that
Speaker 6: Metamoor connection. So Metamore your partner's partner, and that's and
Speaker 6: that's really lovely and I feel really safe in that connection.
Speaker 6: So you know, she's not moving into our family, she's
Speaker 6: not trying to pull our marriage apart or anything like that.
Speaker 2: What would happen if that did enter in? You've got
Speaker 2: you've got a whiff of that. I mean, you're clearly
Speaker 2: an emotionally intelligent, sensitive person. You pick up a whiff
Speaker 2: of that. I feel getting what happens.
Speaker 6: Then we're pretty intuitive people. I would say I would
Speaker 6: pick up on that very early on. And I think
Speaker 6: a lot of that also comes down to what somebody
Speaker 6: is looking for. You know, she's not looking for this
Speaker 6: particular primary person. She's really enjoying being a solo polyamorous
Speaker 6: so she first and foremost dates herself and then dates
Speaker 6: other people. So if she was looking to like build
Speaker 6: family and find her husband, and she was looking towards
Speaker 6: Liam for that not compatible because that's not available in
Speaker 6: our way of being non monogamous.
Speaker 1: And I think it's about compatibility with partners. You know,
Speaker 1: sometimes what we're looking for might not be compatible with
Speaker 1: other partners. And that's a question about communicating with each
Speaker 1: other what we're looking for, but also communicating with other
Speaker 1: potential partners and saying, look, if this is exactly what
Speaker 1: you're looking for, I don't think even if we may
Speaker 1: be aligned on a bunch of things, there might be
Speaker 1: it might not be the greatest of fits.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can tell if someone's looking for more or yeah,
Speaker 3: and then it's yeah, someone's going to get hurt.
Speaker 6: Yeah in the yeah, do.
Speaker 3: You feel a responsibility to advocate and educate people on
Speaker 3: non monogamous relationships?
Speaker 6: Look, I don't see us as educators, but we're storytellers
Speaker 6: and were happy to share our own personal experience because
Speaker 6: we're in a privileged place to be able to do that.
Speaker 6: And when I say privileged, I mean we have the
Speaker 6: love and board of our families, we have our friends,
Speaker 6: we have that security. We're not going to be sort
Speaker 6: of excommunicated from our you know, from our parents or anything.
Speaker 6: So with that, we feel comfortable to talk about our
Speaker 6: relationship and then, you know, hope to open up a
Speaker 6: space where other people can share about their relationship. But
Speaker 6: we're not educators, we're not therapists, we're storytellers, I would say,
Speaker 6: in that space.
Speaker 5: So, yeah, is.
Speaker 2: That you feel the same way.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's really spot on.
Speaker 1: I think the sense of responsibility comes with a bit
Speaker 1: of a bigger platform and the importance of making sure
Speaker 1: that all the conversations we have remains centered around like
Speaker 1: ethics and doing things ethically and also destigmatizing alternative things.
Speaker 1: I think if we can do whatever we can to
Speaker 1: kind of push the conversation forward a little bit, and
Speaker 1: maybe actors like you know, an example of people doing
Speaker 1: things ethically that are non monogamous, I think that's there
Speaker 1: is some responsibility that comes with that that I think
Speaker 1: we both feel, and just to make sure that we're
Speaker 1: having conversations in good faith, you know, across the spectrum.
Speaker 2: Can I ask you this, what advice do you have
Speaker 2: for couples who are considering this opening of a relationship.
Speaker 6: I would say, look into other people's stories, hear how
Speaker 6: they're doing it, Listen to some non monogamous podcasts. There
Speaker 6: are some really great ones out there. We have one,
Speaker 6: but there are others as well. You know, there are
Speaker 6: some fantastic books poly Secure by Jessica Fern, Sex at
Speaker 6: Dawn by doctor Christopher Ryan and Cecilda Jetha. There are
Speaker 6: some fantastic books out there. There are researchers. But you
Speaker 6: also don't need to rush into things. I would say,
Speaker 6: go slow, keep it in the fantasy, talk about the hypotheticals,
Speaker 6: sort of have a process of you know, talk through
Speaker 6: what might come up as you're discussing it, Sit with it.
Speaker 6: Don't rush because you don't want to shock yourself. It's
Speaker 6: not an end race, you know, it's not just sort
Speaker 6: of it's a process, like any relationship is not an
Speaker 6: end goal.
Speaker 1: And also to come to it from a place of strength.
Speaker 1: You never want to use non monogamy as like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know there's been infidelity, so let's open up the relationship,
Speaker 1: or you know the relationship isn't going great, maybe non
Speaker 1: monogamy will solve everything. I think a bit of advice
Speaker 1: that when we were starting to open up, someone said
Speaker 1: that no monogamy is almost like a magnifying glass, you know,
Speaker 1: and if you hold it over your relationship, and if
Speaker 1: your relationship is already strong and you have strong communication,
Speaker 1: these things will blossom and bloom within a non monogamous context.
Speaker 1: But if there are cracks, if you don't have great communication,
Speaker 1: if you take each other for granted, or you're using
Speaker 1: it as a band aid, you know, it's almost it's
Speaker 1: going to be very difficult and could you know, completely
Speaker 1: implode the relationship. So just really understanding where you're coming
Speaker 1: from within your current relationship before or kind of looking outwards.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so interesting when you began and did someone tell
Speaker 2: you to take them? I think what you just said,
Speaker 2: Abby was absolutely beautiful. Just small steps, be gentle, patient, kind,
Speaker 2: I guess kind with yourself and your partner did was
Speaker 2: that your was that what you were, how you were
Speaker 2: being mentored when you first came in.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that was how we approached it. We spoke about
Speaker 6: potentially opening up our relationship for almost a year before
Speaker 6: we acted on that, and then we started going to
Speaker 6: some talks about non monogamy and different discussions, so, you know,
Speaker 6: not diving into that sort of sexual experiences of it,
Speaker 6: but learning about it and meeting other people was really important.
Speaker 1: And finding great examples of no monogamous relationships because we
Speaker 1: were so fortunate to meet people who'd been married thirty
Speaker 1: years and no monogamous for twenty years, like people who
Speaker 1: had really had so much life experience, and we just
Speaker 1: gravitated towards just like A were saying about storytelling, We're
Speaker 1: gravitated towards the stories, you know, and that's what we
Speaker 1: try to do in regards to anything like monogamous relationships
Speaker 1: that are beautiful and fruitful. And your story is also
Speaker 1: an incredible one, and so I think just looking for
Speaker 1: those beautiful like stories of connection and trying to take
Speaker 1: as much as we can from those.
Speaker 4: I think, for me, the.
Speaker 3: Thing about the both of you that really strikes me is,
Speaker 3: you know, monogamy, non monogamy, whatever, it's just you know,
Speaker 3: I think if everyone just took took home, the amount
Speaker 3: of communication that you both have is really actually inspiring
Speaker 3: and incredibly beautiful. And this is why you can be
Speaker 3: whoever you want to be in this marriage, because you're
Speaker 3: so open with each other. And that's everything. I mean,
Speaker 3: you know, relationship one on one is communication. No one
Speaker 3: says anything different than how do I get on the
Speaker 3: same playing with my husband wife? It's communication and you've
Speaker 3: got it so beautifly happening within the two of you.
Speaker 4: So it's it's to you. Kudos to both of you.
Speaker 6: Thanks aally, thank you.
Speaker 2: Let's do the pulse, so we'll do a little thing
Speaker 2: at the end.
Speaker 5: We're all excited.
Speaker 2: Short, short answers, but we both can you both.
Speaker 6: Answer the same question at the same time.
Speaker 2: We want to hear your answer. William's got a big voice. Okay,
Speaker 2: for question number one? What brings you.
Speaker 6: Joy, curiosity and.
Speaker 5: Fun?
Speaker 6: Yeah, like I guess specific examples talking family.
Speaker 1: Times, family, parenting each other, creativity, curiosity.
Speaker 3: Is there one time that you would love to revisit
Speaker 3: in your life?
Speaker 5: I think the New York New York chapter, New York chapter.
Speaker 1: We love New York and we I proposed to Abby
Speaker 1: in New York at the Met Opera in the in
Speaker 1: the foyer, like you know, those those moments are hold
Speaker 1: a deep place my heart.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I would say the same thing. The New
Speaker 6: York chapter. We miss it dearly. It almost feels like Narnia. Now, yeah,
Speaker 6: that's how I think about it.
Speaker 5: The bagels, O, yes, every day I missed those bagels.
Speaker 2: Gods, the New York bagels.
Speaker 5: So I heard.
Speaker 2: You know why why they taste so good? It's the water.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's the water. It's the New York water.
Speaker 2: It's the same with Guinness beer. Send to concentrate over
Speaker 2: from from from Dublin and they mix it with the
Speaker 2: New York water.
Speaker 3: Not the same.
Speaker 2: It tastes really great.
Speaker 4: The No, the Guinness is best in Ireland. Don't tell me.
Speaker 3: What is me? Yeah, I'm hearing the Irish.
Speaker 4: Irish people screaming.
Speaker 2: The Irish people are happy about That's why they love
Speaker 2: New York so much. Because the beer tastes just as
Speaker 2: good because it's the New York water which makes the
Speaker 2: bagels and the pizza bases taste. I love New York pizza.
Speaker 2: What do you miss when you die, Chris? What do
Speaker 2: you miss when you're not together?
Speaker 6: Oh? Look, we're always in charge.
Speaker 5: We have.
Speaker 1: We do message each other a lot, like you know,
Speaker 1: there's like twenty thousand photos in our camera roll just
Speaker 1: to each other and WhatsApp, like you know, it's.
Speaker 6: It's we're never not in contact, right, there's always something happening.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but but I think I definitely there's been moments,
Speaker 1: you know, there's been times where you know, we haven't chatted,
Speaker 1: you know, for I'd probably say the longest is like
Speaker 1: a day or two, Like, yeah, it's really it's really
Speaker 1: not that long that we're apart from each other. But
Speaker 1: I think there's certainly an amount of time where I
Speaker 1: just find myself missing, like you know, the companionship. You know,
Speaker 1: we have so much fun together. We're always laughing. There's
Speaker 1: always something funny happening, like no monogamy. Also, there's so
Speaker 1: many constellations of different things to talk about, and.
Speaker 5: You know, so it's there's just funny things. There's a
Speaker 5: lot of funny things that go on.
Speaker 1: So I think I think whenever we don't talk, you know,
Speaker 1: for an extended period of time, it's kind of for me,
Speaker 1: it's the humor and just the communication.
Speaker 3: Okay, last question. One word to describe each other.
Speaker 5: Oh so many words. That's a hard question.
Speaker 6: So I would say wise, for you, even from when
Speaker 6: we first met, when you were a young man of
Speaker 6: twenty one, you've always had a bit of a you've
Speaker 6: had wisdom, an intuition, but also you're hilarious.
Speaker 5: I just feel like you are.
Speaker 6: I know, that's a weird thing to say about it.
Speaker 5: You know, your man, but you are that's very kind.
Speaker 1: I would say curious and something that I'm endlessly attracted
Speaker 1: to in Abby is just this sense of curiosity, not
Speaker 1: just for relationships, but for life, you know, for the
Speaker 1: way she moves through the world, her friendships. She's always
Speaker 1: curious about other people. She's interested in connecting. I think
Speaker 1: the curiosity feeds into that, it feeds into being a
Speaker 1: creative person. So I would say curiosity.
Speaker 2: Can you just share a couple of funny Is there
Speaker 2: funny experiences in monogamy?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 5: Yeah, always, can you share?
Speaker 1: I think one of the funniest experiences when when we
Speaker 1: were kind of initially opening up and we were meeting
Speaker 1: up with a couple up in Boston. Yes, and so
Speaker 1: we became kind of started. We met these people online.
Speaker 1: We were down in Nashville at the time, and we
Speaker 1: kind of met online and we're going to catch up
Speaker 1: in Nashville cross paths, and we weren't able to meet
Speaker 1: up in Nashville, so they lived in Boston.
Speaker 5: We were in New York.
Speaker 1: We were ships in the night, but we were ships
Speaker 1: in the night, so we're like, Okay, let's catch up
Speaker 1: in Boston. And so everything was online. We were talking
Speaker 1: lots we're sending photos. They were lovely, you know, and
Speaker 1: then we started to get a little bit convinced that
Speaker 1: they were catfishing us and that they.
Speaker 5: Weren't real people.
Speaker 1: Yes, so we drive four hours up to Boston, right
Speaker 1: and where at this restaurant where they told us to
Speaker 1: kind of meet them. And then the excuses start coming in,
Speaker 1: like running a little bit late, you know, well, something's
Speaker 1: come up, will be there soon.
Speaker 6: And I started to get paranoid and I was looking
Speaker 6: around this restaurant. There was this man sitting in the
Speaker 6: corner and I said.
Speaker 5: I bet it's that's him. That's the cat bit right
Speaker 5: over there.
Speaker 6: There's something definitely going on.
Speaker 1: And the excuses also became even more elaborate, like like
Speaker 1: we knew that he was a firefighter, and he was like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, I had to go to a firefighter funeral,
Speaker 1: so this is why I'm late. And we're like okay,
Speaker 1: like no worries, like no rush, you know. And it
Speaker 1: got to the point where they were like an hour.
Speaker 5: Over an hour, we're about to leave.
Speaker 1: We were about to leave. We're like we're going to
Speaker 1: finish our drink and then we're out of here because
Speaker 1: someone is watching us. And this is like some crazy
Speaker 1: joke and we had a nice airban bit anyway, so
Speaker 1: we're like, oh, we're going to have a great time.
Speaker 5: This is just a funny experience.
Speaker 1: And then they rock up and it was actually they
Speaker 1: were real, and they were also just we're very good
Speaker 1: friends of this.
Speaker 5: Day and the absolutely beautiful. This lovely cos absolutely lovely.
Speaker 1: And the amazing part about that story is the reason
Speaker 1: they were late, and they hadn't shared this with us.
Speaker 1: They and they shared with us the next day because
Speaker 1: we exchanged kind of social media handles and they said,
Speaker 1: you know, the reason we didn't exchange social media handles
Speaker 1: with you guys before is we're actually parents, and we
Speaker 1: didn't we thought we felt too embarrassed to say that
Speaker 1: we were non monogamous and parents because we thought you
Speaker 1: might judge us. So just so you know, our instagrams
Speaker 1: are full of you know us, you know, going to
Speaker 1: fire fighting functions and with our kids and.
Speaker 5: So and so.
Speaker 1: And the reason they were late was because they had
Speaker 1: babysitter problems and they couldn't.
Speaker 5: Get that taking too long. It was taken too long,
Speaker 5: but they.
Speaker 1: Hadn't told us the reason, so they they were just
Speaker 1: freaking out about like all the possible all the possible
Speaker 1: kind of excuses they could come up with, and so.
Speaker 6: But that was really interesting because it also you know,
Speaker 6: showed us the level of sort of judgment that there
Speaker 6: can be, you know, for them as parents to other
Speaker 6: non monogamous people, I think because we weren't parents at
Speaker 6: the time.
Speaker 1: Then and then they also formed as beautiful examples of
Speaker 1: people who were non monogamous who also had a beautiful
Speaker 1: family life, and that started the conversations inspiring. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: found them to be super inspiring in credit conversations with us,
Speaker 1: where we thought, maybe, you know, we can be non
Speaker 1: monogamous and great parents as well.
Speaker 5: This is a great example of that. And and you know,
Speaker 5: it was. It was a crazy story and there's so
Speaker 5: many things came out of it, exciting.
Speaker 2: Curious and wise. Abby and Liam, thank you so much.
Speaker 2: I feel wiser and more experienced just being around you
Speaker 2: and experiencing this today. So thanks, really appreciate your time.
Speaker 6: Thank you for having us, Thanks for having us being
Speaker 6: great chat