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Speaker 1: If you don't feel a connection to any nominogamous concepts,

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Speaker 1: and you've looked into it and you really make that

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Speaker 1: choice to be monogamous with your partner, that's a beautiful thing,

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Speaker 1: and that can be a wonderful and fulfilling and rich

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Speaker 1: way to live your life. But for us, the most,

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Speaker 1: you know, the authentic way that we can live our

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Speaker 1: life with ourselves is to be non monogamous.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the heart of it. We would like to

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Speaker 2: acknowledge the gartical people of the or nation, the traditional

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Speaker 2: custodians of this land, and pay our respects to the elders,

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Speaker 2: both past and present. Today's episode is a conversation about

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Speaker 2: non monogamy, conscious relationships, and sexuality. We are joined by

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Speaker 2: the hosts of the Evolving Love podcast, Abby and Liam.

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Speaker 2: They still have been together for over thirteen years and

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Speaker 2: have been consensually non monogamous for eleven of those years,

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Speaker 2: and they are loving parents.

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Speaker 3: They are And it was a chat that I was

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Speaker 3: really really surprised by because I know we've had somewhat

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Speaker 3: similar guess some before, and it is a bit of

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Speaker 3: a touchy subject for a lot of people. You know,

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Speaker 3: it feels very dangerous. It feels wrong to some people,

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Speaker 3: and I really understand that point of view in one sense.

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Speaker 4: But after talking to Abby and.

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Speaker 3: Liam, it's not that I now want to be non monogamous,

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Speaker 3: but the way they talk about it with so much

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Speaker 3: love and care and consideration, and they why they are

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Speaker 3: in an ethical non monogamous relationship, it really makes sense.

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Speaker 3: And I think it's just in the it makes sense

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Speaker 3: for them, do you know what I mean? And I

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Speaker 3: think it's just about staying curious and open to all

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Speaker 3: sorts of relationships. And that's something that I know you

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Speaker 3: and I really want it encourage people to have, just

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Speaker 3: to had the curiosity to what other people's lives are about.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, indeed, well we got into the heart of it with.

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Speaker 4: This, we did.

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Speaker 5: We did.

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Speaker 2: Let's let's have a listen to Abby and Liam.

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Speaker 3: Okay, well, welcome you to the heart of it. Thank

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Speaker 3: you so much for coming in and just exploring this

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Speaker 3: really interesting topic.

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Speaker 4: We've we've had a couple of other couples on that.

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Speaker 3: Have explored non monogamy and been very positive about it.

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Speaker 3: They have very much felt felt so so we just

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Speaker 3: want to kind of get your journey into it. How

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Speaker 3: did it begin for the both of you. This this

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Speaker 3: ethical non monogamy B n M.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's part. That's part of when I've looked you

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Speaker 2: guys up, I'm looking at the all these new terms.

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Speaker 2: There's lots of there are a lot of the specificity

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Speaker 2: of it fascinating. Anyway, how did it go? How did

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Speaker 2: how did how did it begin?

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Speaker 6: Well, first of all, thank you so much for having

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Speaker 6: us the way that this unfolded FILEAM and I was

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Speaker 6: when we first got together, we were in a monogamous relationship,

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Speaker 6: and that was back in twenty twelve, and from the

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Speaker 6: early days of our relationship we were very just open

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Speaker 6: with our communication and sort of we wanted to cultivate

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Speaker 6: and build a relationship where we could essentially talk about anything,

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Speaker 6: So anything that might come up, or if in the

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Speaker 6: future somebody might get a crush on somebody, or if

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Speaker 6: there's some sort of fear or you know that you

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Speaker 6: want to raise, or if there's some desire or kink

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Speaker 6: that maybe you can't you know, you might feel a

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Speaker 6: bit shy to talk about. We've always wanted to have

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Speaker 6: the type of relationship where we could at least have

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Speaker 6: those conversations, whether or not we act on them or not.

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Speaker 6: And it was actually from that place of sharing and

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Speaker 6: connecting and being really open with our communication that we

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Speaker 6: just sort of created a space where we could start to,

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Speaker 6: you know, have these conversations and then we just sort

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Speaker 6: of organically started cultivating our own type of relationship. But

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Speaker 6: the thing that was really interesting, I think for us

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Speaker 6: was without having the language and the terminology, we both

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Speaker 6: found that we were very compursive people, which compersian. It's

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Speaker 6: a big word in nominogamy. It's like often positioned as

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Speaker 6: the opposite of jealousy. It's like this sort of excitement.

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Speaker 3: The first time the other day, that's so interesting.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, great.

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Speaker 6: It's sort of a it's kind of a foundational sort

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Speaker 6: of emotional feeling where you feel, you know, if there's

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Speaker 6: a scenario that might often cause jealousy, instead of feeling

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Speaker 6: that jealousy, you might feel excitement or happiness for your

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Speaker 6: partner's you know, connection with somebody else, or pleasure. So

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Speaker 6: even though we weren't acting on that, we didn't have

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Speaker 6: the language around it, you know, certain scenarios that I

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Speaker 6: thought of that might make me jealous. I was like, actually,

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Speaker 6: I'm finding this to be quite a positive thing that

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Speaker 6: I'm experienced and then when I shared that with you

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Speaker 6: felt similarly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we both really felt on the same page. As

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Speaker 1: soon as we started to have those initial conversations, it

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Speaker 1: was amazing how aligned we actually were, and I think

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Speaker 1: from that kind of from that point, we started to

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Speaker 1: then look at how it would look actually exploring these

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Speaker 1: things with other people.

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Speaker 3: Does it do you think it comes from your upbringing?

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Speaker 3: Did you Did you have an upbringing that was extremely

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Speaker 3: strict or perhaps the opposite, like, where does that come from?

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Speaker 4: With the both of you?

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Speaker 6: For me, I've I've had a very like I wasn't

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Speaker 6: brought up in a you know, a religious family or

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Speaker 6: anything like that, and I've always had very clear lines

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Speaker 6: of communication about things with my parents, so I didn't

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Speaker 6: feel sort of concerned, you know, too much. And I

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Speaker 6: think because it was Liam and I together that I

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Speaker 6: didn't have a sort of an element of shame for

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Speaker 6: thinking about this. It felt like something just different and

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Speaker 6: interesting that we could explore.

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Speaker 1: And for Liam, you had Yeah, I never really had

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Speaker 1: this kind of a strong religious back, so there wasn't

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Speaker 1: anything that I had to unpack when it comes tom

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Speaker 1: like a religious standpoint, And I think I grew up

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Speaker 1: in a very kind of judgment free household about different relationships,

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Speaker 1: So I didn't necessarily feel any kind of strictures around

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Speaker 1: you know, it's a bad thing to think about these

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Speaker 1: things or so it really just allowed us to have

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Speaker 1: these very open conversations with each other without that element,

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Speaker 1: as Abby was saying, of that kind of any shame pieces.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And how has your relationship changed since you

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Speaker 3: decided to be non monogamous? Has what's happened for the

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Speaker 3: both of you?

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Speaker 1: Well, a big thing for us was when you start

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Speaker 1: to explore these types of things, it's a very tempting

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Speaker 1: thing to kind of jump into the deep end of

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Speaker 1: non monogamy, so to go, I'm going to start dating everyone.

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Speaker 5: We're going to do all the things.

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Speaker 1: We're going to go to all the parties and just

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Speaker 1: be really explorative. But what we wanted to do was

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Speaker 1: very consciously move into those spaces. So for us, it

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Speaker 1: was actually very important to kind of talk about all

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Speaker 1: the theoretical things, like different kind of almost like game

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Speaker 1: planning what it would look like if we were to

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Speaker 1: invite someone else into the relationship or to have these

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Speaker 1: experiences with other people. So for us, it was like

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Speaker 1: we were trying to kind of temper some of our

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Speaker 1: initial excitement, because it isn't a really exciting thing when

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Speaker 1: you start to open up and to just have this

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Speaker 1: like very open line of communication so that we could really,

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Speaker 1: you know, get into the nitty gritty of how we

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Speaker 1: were responding, even hypothetically to situations that might arise, because.

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Speaker 2: At that point it would be hypothetical. And always when

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Speaker 2: you're faced with the actual truth of it, it's one

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Speaker 2: thing to say, yeah, honey, I'm fine with it. You

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Speaker 2: go and suddenly Barries in the picture. Yeah, or maybe

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Speaker 2: it's not Barry, maybe it could be Birthny, you know,

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Speaker 2: you know, and you're going, now, I'm actually, oh, this

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Speaker 2: is actually happening, and I haven't done it yet, but

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Speaker 2: I'm watching my partner do it. That's a different thing

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Speaker 2: to go from hypothetical to action.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and sometimes it's hard to meet the right Barry.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's one of those things where like we

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Speaker 1: had a kind of a very solid unit with each other,

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Speaker 1: like a very monogamous unit, and then we were living

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Speaker 1: in New York at the time, and part of the

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Speaker 1: thing was like, how do we meet other people in

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Speaker 1: a really ethical way so that we can explore some

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Speaker 1: of these ideas, so to meet a barrier or a

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Speaker 1: birth or you know, whoever it might be. You know,

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Speaker 1: we were kind of initially started going to different events

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Speaker 1: and talks, and we went to some Estaprel talks and

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Speaker 1: she was talking about and we love esteprel and so

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of kind of meeting people organically

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Speaker 1: who also practice this type of relationship, which opened the

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Speaker 1: doors for us.

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Speaker 6: And that was something that really surprised us as well,

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Speaker 6: because it's when you hear about non monogamous relationships, you

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Speaker 6: can often think, oh, you know, it's looking out outwoods,

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Speaker 6: or it's only about sex or this or that. But

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Speaker 6: for us, it was like really looking deeper into our

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Speaker 6: own relationship and who we are and all of the

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Speaker 6: different things that come up when you're starting to explore

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Speaker 6: this and have these conversations, and it sort of, you know,

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Speaker 6: let us down the path of just being so curious

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Speaker 6: relationships in general.

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Speaker 3: So you've been together thirteen years, yes, and you're eleven

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Speaker 3: years of that has been non monogamous, and you're still

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Speaker 3: clearly together very much, So yeah, what is it about

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Speaker 3: you that you want to stay together, you know, and

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Speaker 3: not just go off and be with those partners that

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Speaker 3: you have been with. What draws you back to each

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Speaker 3: other all the time?

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Speaker 6: Well, we have a deep companionship and a shared life together,

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Speaker 6: and we are lovers, we are a married couple. Like

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Speaker 6: we are very very close, and like we still hold

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Speaker 6: a lot of those like I want to grow old

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Speaker 6: with Liam, Like that is something that we treasure, that

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Speaker 6: is like very very dear to our heart and important

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Speaker 6: to us now because of who we are and because

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Speaker 6: we can, you know, navigate this in this way. I

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Speaker 6: feel like we can actually you know, we can hold

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Speaker 6: the space for non monogamy as well, and you know,

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Speaker 6: there is that deep commitment to each other that in

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Speaker 6: many ways, I feel like I'm very committed to Lim,

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Speaker 6: I'm not committed to monogamy, and that it's actually this

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Speaker 6: sort of the way that we navigate it, navigate our

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Speaker 6: relationship sort of reinforces that closeness. It's sort of like

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Speaker 6: not that it's an antidote to anything, but it's sort

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Speaker 6: of it For me. It brings us actually a sense

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Speaker 6: of deeper security into the relationship.

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Speaker 1: And in preparation for this interview, I was listening to

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Speaker 1: one of your episodes and Cam you made the point

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Speaker 1: that you every day you wake up and choose to

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Speaker 1: be married to each other. It's like a very conscious choice.

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Speaker 1: And I think for us any non monogamous explorations, it's

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Speaker 1: a very conscious discussion. We don't just fall into these situations.

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Speaker 1: It's very deliberate, and even our commitment to each other,

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Speaker 1: we're just consciously choosing every.

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Speaker 5: Day we wake up and go, this is great, this

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Speaker 5: is beautiful.

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Speaker 1: You know, we have so much love and support for

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Speaker 1: each other, like, let's just keep writing this beautiful thing out.

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Speaker 2: I can find it hard to get my head around

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Speaker 2: because the eye idea of sharing a physical or sex

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Speaker 2: sexual life with somebody else or having Ali do the

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Speaker 2: same thing, ow's my person, you know. So basically if

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Speaker 2: you're bringing someone else in like Aby, I'll use you

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Speaker 2: as an example. So Mel Barry is going to come

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Speaker 2: come in and come into the relationship. Do you how

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Speaker 2: do you how do you work on on being that

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Speaker 2: emotional intimacy? How do you do you temper that? And

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Speaker 2: then do you tell Barry stuff that you don't tell Liam?

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Speaker 2: And I would find that very hard and and and

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Speaker 2: then say if there's another one, you know, let's Chris

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Speaker 2: has joined as well. I mean I don't know how

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Speaker 2: that you can explain to me how that works. But

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Speaker 2: but that sort of sharing your heart and being there

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Speaker 2: clearly it's with you too. Is it also with Barry

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Speaker 2: and could it be with Chris?

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: So the way that we practice our non monogamy, it's

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Speaker 6: we're not in we're not full on practicing polyamory where

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Speaker 6: we're maintaining these you know, very in depth like partner

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Speaker 6: building relationships in the same way that we have our marriage.

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Speaker 6: Like we have our marriage, we have our partnership and

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Speaker 6: our connections with other people whilst very meaningful and quite

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Speaker 6: you know, long lasting, it's more like a deep friendship

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Speaker 6: that does have an intimacy element to it as well,

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Speaker 6: you know, and we're very honest with you know, anybody

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Speaker 6: who would potentially be dating with partners where it's like

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Speaker 6: I'm not going to be building a life in the

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Speaker 6: same way. And I think it's really understandable that you

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Speaker 6: would feel like you can't understand how we you know,

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Speaker 6: how to comprehend this because when you're in a monogamous

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Speaker 6: relationship and that sort of the framework that you understand,

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Speaker 6: sometimes people can think that it's like having double of that.

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Speaker 6: So it's like how do you have the time, how

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Speaker 6: do you have the emotional bandit? How do you have

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Speaker 6: double of that? We don't have double of this? Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 6: this is our marriage.

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Speaker 2: Okay, do you feel the same way.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean there's so many things to talk about when

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Speaker 1: it comes to this, in particular with the masculinity piece

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Speaker 1: as well, because I think there's so much social conditioning

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Speaker 1: that teaches us to be super possessive of our partner,

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Speaker 1: you know, like the most in love we can be

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Speaker 1: is to fight off any possible suitors, Like if someone

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Speaker 1: looks at Abby in a weird way to you know,

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Speaker 1: there's this like kind of trope of chasing after that

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Speaker 1: person and proving your love for your partner. And I

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Speaker 1: think once you start to really interrogate some of those things,

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Speaker 1: you can start to think about, you know, like what

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Speaker 1: of that is like down to kind of patriarchy potentially,

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Speaker 1: or kind of the social conditioning of monogamy. Like we

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Speaker 1: grow up and we're just told, you know, you should

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Speaker 1: be in a monogamous relationship, and whether that's down to

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Speaker 1: religion or just society conditioning. And I think once you

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Speaker 1: start interrogating some of these things and trying to kind

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Speaker 1: of decouple it a little bits were saying, like we

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Speaker 1: think about things, we start at everything as a friendship level,

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Speaker 1: and when you were saying, you know, like you can

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Speaker 1: probably you probably have really beautiful conversations with your close

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Speaker 1: guy friends or female friends that you have in your life,

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Speaker 1: and for us, like you probably might not necessarily feel

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Speaker 1: threatened by those really beautiful emotional friendships that you have

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Speaker 1: with others, and for us that the sex or intimacy

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Speaker 1: on top of that is just really an extension of

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Speaker 1: that connection. So we're just open to that extension. I

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Speaker 1: guess I think.

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Speaker 3: It's probably it probably gets a bad name in the

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Speaker 3: sense that when you've got like the cults where it's

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Speaker 3: like one man, you know what I mean, the polyamory

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Speaker 3: cult where it's one man with twenty five sixteen year olds,

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Speaker 3: where it's like people immediately would probably go, oh, this

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Speaker 3: is what you're into, you know what I mean, Where

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Speaker 3: you're talking about something very very very different to that.

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Speaker 4: It's like the complete opposite end to that.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, it's getting past, you know, being open and

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Speaker 3: getting past what what the idea of it is in

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Speaker 3: a lot of ways, because.

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Speaker 2: People you get one chance at the first impression, you know,

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Speaker 2: and if the first impression is some Culty movie that

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Speaker 2: you've watched Jim Jones and think and the cordial the

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Speaker 2: look cool aid, you know, it's sort of that sort

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Speaker 2: of thing. Well, that's what this is. And it's a

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Speaker 2: lot easier, I think it's a lot easier to reconcile

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Speaker 2: something by throwing it into a label, throwing into that.

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Speaker 2: So what you're talking about, it's a lot more nuanced

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Speaker 2: and collaborative and collaborative, and the language is very specific.

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Speaker 2: Like when we talked to you, you said a lot of acronyms,

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Speaker 2: a lot of do you find yourself going, oh this

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Speaker 2: are you thinking about it a lot? Because there's so

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Speaker 2: many things that sort of we talk about it all

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Speaker 2: the time.

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Speaker 6: Look, we don't talk about it all the time. We

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Speaker 6: have other things happening in our life and parents as well.

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Speaker 2: So you want to see how that works.

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Speaker 6: So we don't talk about it all the time, but

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Speaker 6: it is something that we enjoy talking about and we

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Speaker 6: like to, you know, push our edges a little bit

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Speaker 6: and you know, see where things are at. And in

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Speaker 6: the context of non monogamy, there is always something to

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Speaker 6: talk about. So you know, even if it's revisiting something,

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Speaker 6: you know, in our mind, a memory that happened years ago,

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Speaker 6: and how we would sort of connect with that now

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Speaker 6: if we were to do it, you know, if we

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Speaker 6: were to be different or not. So there is always

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Speaker 6: an interesting aspect of it. And I think you know

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Speaker 6: as well as you know, there is that cult association

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Speaker 6: as you were saying, I think that there can also

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Speaker 6: be that resistance to hearing about non monogamy too, because

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Speaker 6: often the only sort of framework that a lot of

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Speaker 6: people have for nonmennogamy is if there is you know,

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Speaker 6: it's a story of infidelity, it's a story of pain.

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Speaker 6: We only sort of hear about these specific types of

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Speaker 6: you know, scenarios where there's some sort of betrayal, and

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Speaker 6: I think it is one of the It is a

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Speaker 6: type of it is a way of being where when

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Speaker 6: people do hear it, they put themselves in that situation

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Speaker 6: and sort of imagine or just how they might feel

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Speaker 6: if it was them. And because they don't have that

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Speaker 6: compersian and they don't have that understanding and that point

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Speaker 6: of reference, it can it can feel uncomfortable. And that's

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Speaker 6: why I think it is good to have a chat

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Speaker 6: about these things. Because nothing is black and white.

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Speaker 1: And it is important for there to be representation of

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Speaker 1: different relationship structures. And this is why we talk about

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Speaker 1: it through our podcasts and why we're really interested in

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Speaker 1: talking to people with you know, all across the spectrum.

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Speaker 1: We've had biblical scholars that we've talked to about non

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Speaker 1: monogamy and how they would feel about it, and you know,

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Speaker 1: we've talked to people who are monogamous because that's That's

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Speaker 1: another thing is the misconception that because we're talking about nominogamy,

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Speaker 1: we're like crusaders for like everyone joining the cult of

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Speaker 1: non monogamy, which is absolutely not the case. It's a

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Speaker 1: great name for a band that would Yeah, maybe our

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Speaker 1: next band, Oh there we go, We're going to steal

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Speaker 1: that for our new theme tune. But I think it

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Speaker 1: is really important that we say that because there we

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Speaker 1: know so many wonderful monogamous people in beautiful monogamous relationships,

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Speaker 1: and the thing that we really care about is that

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Speaker 1: people are consciously choosing monogamy. It's like you were saying, like,

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Speaker 1: if you don't feel a connection to any nom monogamous

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Speaker 1: concepts and you've looked into it, and you really make

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Speaker 1: that choice to be monogamous with your partner, that's a

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Speaker 1: beautiful thing, and that that can be a wonderful and

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Speaker 1: fulfilling and rich way to live your life. But for us,

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Speaker 1: the most, you know, the authentic way that we can

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Speaker 1: live our life with ourselves is to be non monogamous.

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Speaker 3: We had an amazing sex historian on the podcast, her

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Speaker 3: and her mum who wrote this amazing book like Sex

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Speaker 3: through the History, and they were both like, nothing is new.

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Speaker 3: What's happening now? Everyone thinks that like this is new,

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Speaker 3: this is a hot this has been going on, Well, monogamy,

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Speaker 3: isn't you monogamy? Yeah? Right?

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Speaker 4: Has the kinks have all been happening?

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Speaker 5: I mean those romans, Yeah, they were doing some crazy things,

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Speaker 5: super stuff.

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Speaker 3: So it was it was so interesting hearing them talk.

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Speaker 3: It's like everyone thinks that this is this brand new

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Speaker 3: idea of this that or whatever, and it's like, no,

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Speaker 3: there's been.

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Speaker 4: All of this stuff happening.

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Speaker 3: And I mean they found you know, dil those that

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Speaker 3: were like two thousand years old that they're not usable still,

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Speaker 3: but you know they've been doing oh they'd be dusty.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. So it's it's interesting.

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Speaker 3: I find the whole exploration of it really interesting that

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Speaker 3: it's like people are thinking it's it's like, what's this

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Speaker 3: new idea. It's like it's been around a really long time. Yep,

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Speaker 3: that's very true.

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Speaker 2: I think I know the answer to this already. Can

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Speaker 2: you ever see a time when you might turn round

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Speaker 2: to each other and and go, you know what I think?

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Speaker 2: I think I just want you for sure? And what

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Speaker 2: if the other one says, yeah, I'm not ready for that?

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I think it's like anything, it would be

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Speaker 1: a conversation. You know, it would not be something that

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Speaker 1: would take us off guard, Like we wouldn't accidentally end

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Speaker 1: up in a situation where we were not really seeing

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Speaker 1: I do I about talking about these things because it

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Speaker 1: is a communication we.

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Speaker 6: You know, in like the name of our podcast, Evolving Love.

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Speaker 6: It's like, evolving doesn't mean evolving to become more and

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Speaker 6: more and more open to the point of, you know,

396
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Speaker 6: having very separate lives with separate partners. It's just that

397
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Speaker 6: it's an unfolding, changing thing, also dependent on circumstances, what's

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Speaker 6: happening in life, how busy we might be, health, hormones,

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Speaker 6: like all of these things, you know, play into things.

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Speaker 6: So like we definitely have periods of time where we do,

401
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Speaker 6: you know, close up a bit and we become a

402
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Speaker 6: bit more monogamous, you know, during pregnancy and during you know,

403
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Speaker 6: having a newborn and all of that was a very

404
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Speaker 6: us time. And then as things felt a little more

405
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Speaker 6: you know, coming into a little bit more independence again,

406
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Speaker 6: in very slow ways, we started opening up again. So

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Speaker 6: you know, we're not always expanding to the point of

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Speaker 6: being extremely open. It's it's a very flexible, fluid situation.

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Speaker 3: And what's your how old is You've got a boy? Right, yeah,

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Speaker 3: he's six, he's six? What is you know, obviously you're

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Speaker 3: very open communicators. How is this something that you will

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Speaker 3: feel you need to share with him at some point?

413
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Speaker 3: I mean, does he meet your other partners or how

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Speaker 3: does that work in a parenting style.

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Speaker 6: So we have a very monogamous home. We don't live

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Speaker 6: with other partners. We're not really we're not affectionate with

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Speaker 6: other partners in front of him. It's not really, that's

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Speaker 6: not really what it's about for us, Not that we're

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Speaker 6: deliberately trying to keep people at bay. He has met

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Speaker 6: different partners of ours, but in the framework of you know,

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Speaker 6: there's a group of us with our friends and we're

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Speaker 6: getting together with their children. We're having a barbecue, we're

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Speaker 6: having that gathering. So everything is always age appropriate, you know,

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Speaker 6: Like Leam and I don't stand and make out with

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Speaker 6: each other in front of him, and we wouldn't do

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Speaker 6: that with other people in front of him. You know,

427
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Speaker 6: as he gets older, we will share with him in

428
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Speaker 6: gentle ways. You know, there's many different ways for people

429
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Speaker 6: to have a relationship, but to us, the important thing

430
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Speaker 6: is to be honest and to be in your integrity

431
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Speaker 6: and to also be who you are. So he knows that,

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Speaker 6: you know, he has he has a gay auntie and

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Speaker 6: her partner. That's just normal to him. He doesn't have

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Speaker 6: any shame on anything like that. So you know, we're

435
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,680
Speaker 6: hoping that would be the same for relationships.

436
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, So have you have you had any challenging situations

437
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 2: with like even well I'm sure not so much with

438
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:44,160
Speaker 2: the teachers, but certainly family members and possibly other parents

439
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,200
Speaker 2: or caregivers. You know, there have been situations where you've

440
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:52,800
Speaker 2: had challenges and even felt the need to explain or

441
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 2: how do you deal with those sort of things?

442
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 1: Well, I think because we have a public profile and

443
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 1: we do appear in the media, like people know, you know,

444
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 1: it's school drop off. They probably go, those are the

445
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 1: no monogamous parents.

446
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Canberra is a small town.

447
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 5: It is a small town.

448
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,400
Speaker 1: But what you start to realize with us speaking publicly

449
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 1: is people are much more open minded than you would think,

450
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:14,920
Speaker 1: you know. And sometimes it's the people that you think

451
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 1: would be the most close minded, like some of the

452
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 1: parents of our son's friends who are very religious. Once

453
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,199
Speaker 1: they found out we've had those discussions, we go, oh,

454
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 1: we have a podcast, you know, it's about non monogamy

455
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 1: and alternative relationships. They are beautifully inquisitive and they know

456
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: us as parents and they know that we are caring

457
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 1: and loving parents, and our son comes first. And the

458
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,400
Speaker 1: fact that we talk about this, you know, it's it's

459
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 1: not our whole life, you know, talking about nom monogamy

460
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,399
Speaker 1: isn't our whole life. And because they already have a

461
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 1: frame of reference for us as parents, they go, oh,

462
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 1: they just do things a little bit differently and kind

463
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 1: of move along with their day.

464
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

465
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, we haven't come up against anything negative in our

466
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:56,639
Speaker 6: day to day life.

467
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good.

468
00:23:57,800 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 5: It's online. That's where the craziest online.

469
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, people were sitting in the dark

470
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 2: on the keyboard stuff.

471
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 4: Do you get? What sort of stuff do you get?

472
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 4: Like does it really have?

473
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 6: Like you shouldn't be parents, This isn't love.

474
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: I'm Jesus without the morals, Without the morals, that's the thing.

475
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 5: That's a good one. That was a good one.

476
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 3: Sometimes let's go with that.

477
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:22,120
Speaker 5: We'll support your band.

478
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean sometimes sometimes the online commentary does range

479
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: from very sad to like, you know, funny and so

480
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 1: and the witty kind of takedowns of the other funny

481
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: ones like like we.

482
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 5: Were on the project.

483
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 1: We were on the project, and as part of the filming,

484
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: I had to play soccer with us son. But the

485
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: producer for the project all you could find was a

486
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 1: basketball and I was like, oh no, that's going to

487
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 1: look super weird playing basketball. And then so they filmed

488
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 1: it and then they put it on the project and

489
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: then all these comments were like this idiot doesn't even

490
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: know what a football.

491
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 5: Is, and I was thinking, I know what a football is,

492
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 5: like so I do yeah, yeah, And I was like madribl.

493
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 2: I know.

494
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 1: I was trying to like do I combat these comments?

495
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 1: And at a certain point you just have to and

496
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 1: I think it did affect like I'm a sensitive person

497
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: and that the criticisms on me.

498
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 5: As a father were very hard to hear, sure.

499
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 1: And because I really do that's a huge part of

500
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 1: my life and something I care deeply about. So I

501
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 1: think those were, in all seriousness, quite quite difficult to

502
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 1: kind of come across.

503
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 3: Who do you find it the most outspoken? Is it

504
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 3: the women or the men?

505
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 4: Is there? Or is it fairly balanced in a negative way?

506
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 6: In a negative way, Oh, I feel like it's quite balanced.

507
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's fairly even handed. But

508
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 1: there is a demographic like kind of shift. So it's

509
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 1: so in particular like on Facebook, I guess because it

510
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 1: captures a lot of you know, some older demographics. There

511
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 1: was you know, I would say a lot of the

512
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: people were fifties plus. And this is also because they

513
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have a frame of reference maybe for non monogamy.

514
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 1: So just seeing the title non monogamous Mother, I think

515
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 1: was the title of the video, just triggered them so much,

516
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: even without watching it, they would engage with it almost

517
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: as if they knew who we were, how we approached things.

518
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: And then they just have this kind of really intense

519
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: reaction because you know that maybe they had never had

520
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 1: examples of this before.

521
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I would imagine it's going to hit a

522
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 3: nerve for those people who've been cheated on. They're going

523
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 3: to go, oh, yeah, well my husband was non monogamous too,

524
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 3: because he cheated on me, which is very different to

525
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 3: your yes talking about in your agreement.

526
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 6: So yeah, for sure.

527
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 4: What inspired you to start I.

528
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 3: Think I kind of know this the Evolving Love podcast.

529
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,479
Speaker 6: Well, I started sharing with some other mum friends of

530
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 6: mine when we moved back to Canberra.

531
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 2: And when you said back and where did you move

532
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 2: back from?

533
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 6: We were in New York City.

534
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 5: That's a big shit.

535
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 2: It was a big it was New York City to camera,

536
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 2: yes there's no slot on camera, but just moving from

537
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 2: America to Australia is a big shop.

538
00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 6: Sure for sure.

539
00:26:58,920 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 5: Yeah.

540
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 6: So so moving back to Canberra, which is essentially a wonderful,

541
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 6: fantastic cultural town. You know, it's it's not a big city.

542
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 6: But yeah, just sharing with other mum friends and of course,

543
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 6: you know we're with the babies, we talk about relationships

544
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 6: and marriages and everything sort of comes up. And you know,

545
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 6: I had a few friends that were like do you

546
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 6: and Liam like things seem really good, like what's sort

547
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 6: of happening? And I decided to just be honest and

548
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 6: share a little bit about our non monogamous relationship. And

549
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 6: I thought that I would be quite heavily judged, you know,

550
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 6: these were the sort of the high school friends, and

551
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 6: instead I was met with a lot of curiosity, in

552
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 6: a lot of harh that kind of makes sense the

553
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 6: way the way you explain it, or I'd never considered

554
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 6: it like that. And then I started writing about it,

555
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 6: and I started a little private Instagram page, you know,

556
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 6: initially for women, and then that sort of grew and

557
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 6: you know, the thing with it was you could follow

558
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 6: if you were a friend of a friend. So I

559
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 6: liked the idea that a conversation would have had to

560
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 6: have happened to be able to sort of follow along. Yeah,

561
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 6: And I just started writing about it and sharing about it.

562
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 6: And I think the more that you can be yourself

563
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 6: and share about these things than other people who were,

564
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 6: you know, also non monogamous and just keeping it quite

565
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 6: under wraps, you know, felt like sharing as well and

566
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 6: reaching out. And there is a big community of non

567
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 6: monogamous people and non monogamous parents, but it's very underground

568
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 6: because the judgment is very high and people feel protective

569
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 6: of their love, they feel protective of their parenting.

570
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 1: But the community aspect is a big thing for us

571
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: as well. And you know, we run regular conversation nights

572
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: in Canberra and in Sydney as well, and we did

573
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: one last night actually in Newtown and what was incredible

574
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: was that we deliberately kind of capped them to about

575
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: twenty people come along and people it's for some of

576
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: them it's the first time they've ever been able to

577
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: share about their non monogamy in public without the feeling

578
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: of being judged. And it is a really powerful thing,

579
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: like people going you know, I grew up in the church.

580
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: Some of them are still involved in the church, but

581
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: they have this side of them that they feel they

582
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: can't really live authentic lives and it's such a shame

583
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: and I think it is really important and the work

584
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: that Abby does with her writing on sub Stack and

585
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: all this type of thing, like to destigmatize these alternative

586
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: ways of doing things and to make people do it

587
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: just to allow them to feel seen. You know, it's

588
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: such an important part of why we started Evolving Love

589
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: as well. I think, you know, just having these conversations

590
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: with people and just you know, allowing people to kind

591
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 1: of share these really unique experiences, it's been really powerful.

592
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 2: And I look, I imagine that through these sort of evenings

593
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 2: and the other community experiences with what you're talking about

594
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 2: with the Mother's group, that you've inspired people to open

595
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 2: up and bring that into their bring it into their lives.

596
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, there have been people that have you know, decided

597
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 6: to open up their relationship or they challenging their sort

598
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 6: of ideas that they'd had about monogamy because they can

599
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 6: be you know, when you start talking about this stuff,

600
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 6: then you can also turn to the well, why are

601
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,719
Speaker 6: we monogamous? Is it because mum and dad were monogamous?

602
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 6: Is it because you know all of the couples on

603
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 6: TV monogamous in Disney and all of that. So there

604
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 6: can be a lot of Yeah, there can be a

605
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 6: lot of sort of questioning that happens. But our conversation

606
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 6: evenings also attract monogamous people as well who like the

607
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 6: idea of the sort of emotional work or exploration of like,

608
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 6: you know, emotionally exploring non monogamy within the context of

609
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 6: their relationship because you know, sort of like living in

610
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 6: that fantasy land because it's like, just because something you like,

611
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 6: the idea of something, or it's a fantasy of that

612
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 6: you might have, you don't necessarily have to then bring

613
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 6: that into reality. What sometimes works in the fantasy doesn't translate.

614
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 2: So yeah, because my fantasy is always end that very bad.

615
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: I go down the road, and I'll go down that

616
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 2: road and go what would happen if me go, Yeah,

617
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 2: that's not good?

618
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, but it's enjoyable. Is it enjoyable going down the road?

619
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: Though?

620
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 2: Sometimes for a little bit and then and then it's like, yeah, no,

621
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 2: that's not what I want. Yeah, I want that. Yeah,

622
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: I want that, you know because.

623
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 4: Even if the fantasy is like me playing golf with.

624
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 2: You, Oh no, that's a definite. That's that's I stay

625
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 2: on that road. That's a strong fantasy, that's what we

626
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 2: might do. What we might do up in the bushes

627
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 2: on the thirteenth when we played that might be fun.

628
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 2: I can go with that one all the way.

629
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 3: Have you had any with the podcast? Have you had

630
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 3: any sort of surprising or particularly challenging guess that you

631
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 3: don't have to name them, but anything that's been really

632
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 3: hard or challenging to deal with.

633
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, we had we had a really profound conversation with

634
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: a guy called Andrew Gerzer. He's a disability advocate and

635
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: he's kind of a queer disabled. He's got multiple sclerosis,

636
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: so he's wheelchair bound, he's in carry and cerebral palsy. Sorry,

637
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: and so you know, it was quite an arresting conversation

638
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: for us to have talking about his ability to access

639
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: you know, sex workers for his mental health, because that's

640
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: the only way he can have these sexual interactions because

641
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: of his disability. And I think conversations like that, I

642
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: think we broke down in tears afterwards, like it was

643
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: such it was just so you know, affecting on an

644
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: emotional level and just kind of highlighted the importance of

645
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: talking to people who have very different experiences from your own.

646
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: I think that for me was a really big conversation.

647
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 6: And he also identifies as somebody who is non monogamous

648
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 6: but isn't practicing non monogamy, so it was very Yeah,

649
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 6: so many interesting insights from him. I would say some

650
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 6: of it hasn't happened often, but I think less so

651
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 6: on the podcast, but sometimes with some people I think

652
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 6: where I sort of struggle sometimes in the conversation is

653
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 6: if there are people who sort of say that this

654
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 6: is a better way, you know, if there are people

655
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 6: who are like, polyamory is a more evolved way of being,

656
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 6: it's a better way of being in a relationship, And

657
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 6: I just don't connect with that at all, you know,

658
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 6: it's such a Having a relationship is such an individual experience.

659
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 6: You bring your whole history into it, and everybody it's

660
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 6: going to be different for everybody. So yeah, I don't

661
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 6: connect with that.

662
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 2: Let's just assume for a moment that this is this

663
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 2: is one I one first episode. Can you can you

664
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 2: just you just mentioned because you're only I'm asking this speech,

665
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: you mentioned polyamory for me, who's not very well studied

666
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 2: in this certainly not experienced in it. What is the

667
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 2: difference between polyamory and non monogamous relationship?

668
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 6: So they all fall under the umbrella term of ethical

669
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 6: non monogamy, but people often use ethical non monogamy or

670
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 6: E and M now as this sort of way of

671
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 6: like having friends where you might be intimate like you'd

672
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 6: have lovers, but it's not necessarily full on building a

673
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 6: life together committed relationship. Polyamory which is like polyamory, is

674
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 6: like many loving relationships, like many ongoing loving relationships. So

675
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 6: the umbrella term is ethical non monogamy, but people casually

676
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 6: use it as something that's a little bit not as

677
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 6: escalated as polyamory as well, so different to swinging, like

678
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 6: a bit more of an ongoing connections. I would say, yeah, okay,

679
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 6: but not full on polyamory. And then there's open relationship,

680
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 6: and then there's don't ask, don't tell, And then.

681
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 2: I guess that's that's certain. Don't ask, don't tell. Is

682
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 2: that's there's an agreement there isn't there. It's just I

683
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 2: guess the shit hits the fan when someone finds out

684
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:41,919
Speaker 2: don't ask, don't tell.

685
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 5: Well, I mean it's an arrange.

686
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 2: Weird, wouldn't it what?

687
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: It's an interesting arrangement, and I mean it is very

688
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: ethically done in the sense that there's an agreement between

689
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: the couple.

690
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 5: Well that's the hope that they will get.

691
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: To experience this, you know, these relationships, but there's just

692
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 1: no kind of conversation directly dressing that with the partner.

693
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 1: So it is a very complex landscape to navigate, and

694
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: we don't practice that. Don't ask, don't tell obviously, Yeah,

695
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: we're I love to.

696
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 6: We love to share about things. You know, if Liam

697
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,320
Speaker 6: goes on a date with somebody and has a connection,

698
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,879
Speaker 6: I want to know about that. I'm interested and I'm

699
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 6: interested in what comes up for him or what he

700
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 6: might share. And you know, sometimes I see a different

701
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 6: aspect of Liam or he'll say, oh, you know, and

702
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 6: she asked me this, and we had this conversation and

703
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 6: then it made me think about that, and there's that

704
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 6: moment where I'm like, oh, gosh, you know, I hadn't

705
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 6: thought about you in that way, or we haven't spoken

706
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 6: about that in a while. So, you know, because I

707
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 6: guess the you know, a bit of a thing around

708
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 6: it is that, you know, when you connect with different people,

709
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 6: different people sort of you can share different aspects of

710
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 6: yourself with different people. So even though Liam and I

711
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 6: are so familiar and I feel like I know him,

712
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,720
Speaker 6: you know, so deeply, and I do, there might still

713
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 6: be you know, new things that come up for you

714
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 6: if you're in conversation with someone else, because they're a

715
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 6: different person and they're engaging with you in a different way.

716
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,399
Speaker 2: So which comes back to and I know that you

717
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 2: get asked this and about the jealousy aspect. And then

718
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 2: so for someone who's not has evolved, they're feeling they

719
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 2: still feel that that. I might say, I use the

720
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 2: word evolved in terms of evolving a jealous standpoint. You talk,

721
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:33,359
Speaker 2: what's the word calm Compersian? Right, So I imagine I'm

722
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 2: putting Ali and I in this situation, and Ow's now

723
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 2: sitting with another fellow, and he and she comes home,

724
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,959
Speaker 2: and I go, how to go, you know, with old mate?

725
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 2: And already I can feel myself done. How to go

726
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 2: with old mate? You know, you weren't with me sort

727
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 2: of being oh, he was great. He asked me about

728
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 2: X y Z. Now I'm already self flagellating, going fuck,

729
00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 2: I should have asked her about why she's gonna like

730
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 2: him way better than me. I'm going to be out

731
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 2: the door now.

732
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 1: I would almost take the hypothetical back a step. I

733
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: would say, let's say we're on the golf course and

734
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:13,399
Speaker 1: Barry is playing. Yeah exactly, we're going to start, okay,

735
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 1: and you guys are playing around together, and you are

736
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,800
Speaker 1: at the thirteenth hole okay, and Barry is. Barry is

737
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: on the other other green, but he can kind of

738
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: see over to you guys on the thirteenth hole. That

739
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: would be the moment to start to be like, how

740
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,720
Speaker 1: would you feel if Barry was just on another hole

741
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: seeing what's going on in the you know, on the

742
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: thirteenth hole. You know, that would be the moment to

743
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: be like, how do we feel about like the exhibitionism

744
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,879
Speaker 1: of that, and how would we howoud we feel about

745
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 1: that inside ourselves before jumping to like the most intense

746
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 1: version of the scenario, where it's like, you know, because

747
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: because sometimes like that could be really exciting once you

748
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: start to kind of dip your feet into those conversational

749
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 1: fantasy territories. And I would say, you know, something that

750
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: we say to people is like, just explore that. It

751
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be full send. You know, you don't

752
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: have to imagine being in an orgy of two hundred people.

753
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: You know, It's it's like you can really just kind

754
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 1: of explore these concepts.

755
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, there we go. That can happen to the golf

756
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 5: course at the club afterwards.

757
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:21,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, both of you. Is it exciting sexually when

758
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 3: you're like, when you're attracted to another woman and you're

759
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 3: having a great time with her, does that excite you sexually?

760
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 3: Or is it more just you're happy that that Liam's happy.

761
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 3: Is there a sexual excitement to it as well?

762
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean everybody is different. For me, there is.

763
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 6: That is sort of how Compersian looks for me, more

764
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 6: so than the thought of Liam forming a deep loving

765
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 6: bond where they're like, you know, having They're having big

766
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 6: getaways and going for picnics and all these sort of

767
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 6: non sexual activities. While I think that's really lovely and

768
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 6: I'm not I'm not like against it, it's not really

769
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 6: that's a more neutral space for me. And then depend

770
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 6: and if I'm say I'm pre menstrual or things like that,

771
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 6: those jealousy feelings that come up for nearly everybody will

772
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 6: get exacerbated. So it's also very interesting for me with

773
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 6: my hormonal landscape sort of how I sort of it's

774
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 6: like the Compersian and the jealousy knobs. You know, they're

775
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 6: going up and down and you know all of that.

776
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 6: So trying to be gentle on myself with that. And

777
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 6: Liam's always been aware of that too, so being sensitive

778
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,399
Speaker 6: to each other. But I think a lot of it

779
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 6: also comes down to who the person is, you know,

780
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 6: who who you know at the moment you know, and

781
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 6: for a while now, Liam has a wonderful lover and

782
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 6: she's also our friend, and she dates other people, but

783
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 6: we also we go for coffee together, the three of us.

784
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 6: Sometimes her and I go and right together. We have

785
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 6: that baseline of friendship. I trust her, I have that

786
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 6: Metamoor connection. So Metamore your partner's partner, and that's and

787
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,760
Speaker 6: that's really lovely and I feel really safe in that connection.

788
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 6: So you know, she's not moving into our family, she's

789
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 6: not trying to pull our marriage apart or anything like that.

790
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 2: What would happen if that did enter in? You've got

791
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 2: you've got a whiff of that. I mean, you're clearly

792
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 2: an emotionally intelligent, sensitive person. You pick up a whiff

793
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 2: of that. I feel getting what happens.

794
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 6: Then we're pretty intuitive people. I would say I would

795
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 6: pick up on that very early on. And I think

796
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,240
Speaker 6: a lot of that also comes down to what somebody

797
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 6: is looking for. You know, she's not looking for this

798
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 6: particular primary person. She's really enjoying being a solo polyamorous

799
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 6: so she first and foremost dates herself and then dates

800
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 6: other people. So if she was looking to like build

801
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 6: family and find her husband, and she was looking towards

802
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 6: Liam for that not compatible because that's not available in

803
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,879
Speaker 6: our way of being non monogamous.

804
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: And I think it's about compatibility with partners. You know,

805
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 1: sometimes what we're looking for might not be compatible with

806
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 1: other partners. And that's a question about communicating with each

807
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: other what we're looking for, but also communicating with other

808
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 1: potential partners and saying, look, if this is exactly what

809
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,839
Speaker 1: you're looking for, I don't think even if we may

810
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 1: be aligned on a bunch of things, there might be

811
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 1: it might not be the greatest of fits.

812
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

813
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can tell if someone's looking for more or yeah,

814
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 3: and then it's yeah, someone's going to get hurt.

815
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 6: Yeah in the yeah, do.

816
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 3: You feel a responsibility to advocate and educate people on

817
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 3: non monogamous relationships?

818
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:49,240
Speaker 6: Look, I don't see us as educators, but we're storytellers

819
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 6: and were happy to share our own personal experience because

820
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 6: we're in a privileged place to be able to do that.

821
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 6: And when I say privileged, I mean we have the

822
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 6: love and board of our families, we have our friends,

823
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 6: we have that security. We're not going to be sort

824
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 6: of excommunicated from our you know, from our parents or anything.

825
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 6: So with that, we feel comfortable to talk about our

826
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 6: relationship and then, you know, hope to open up a

827
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 6: space where other people can share about their relationship. But

828
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 6: we're not educators, we're not therapists, we're storytellers, I would say,

829
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 6: in that space.

830
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 5: So, yeah, is.

831
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:27,720
Speaker 2: That you feel the same way.

832
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's really spot on.

833
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,399
Speaker 1: I think the sense of responsibility comes with a bit

834
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: of a bigger platform and the importance of making sure

835
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: that all the conversations we have remains centered around like

836
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: ethics and doing things ethically and also destigmatizing alternative things.

837
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: I think if we can do whatever we can to

838
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 1: kind of push the conversation forward a little bit, and

839
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,919
Speaker 1: maybe actors like you know, an example of people doing

840
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,879
Speaker 1: things ethically that are non monogamous, I think that's there

841
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 1: is some responsibility that comes with that that I think

842
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 1: we both feel, and just to make sure that we're

843
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 1: having conversations in good faith, you know, across the spectrum.

844
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 2: Can I ask you this, what advice do you have

845
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 2: for couples who are considering this opening of a relationship.

846
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 6: I would say, look into other people's stories, hear how

847
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 6: they're doing it, Listen to some non monogamous podcasts. There

848
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 6: are some really great ones out there. We have one,

849
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 6: but there are others as well. You know, there are

850
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 6: some fantastic books poly Secure by Jessica Fern, Sex at

851
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 6: Dawn by doctor Christopher Ryan and Cecilda Jetha. There are

852
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 6: some fantastic books out there. There are researchers. But you

853
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 6: also don't need to rush into things. I would say,

854
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 6: go slow, keep it in the fantasy, talk about the hypotheticals,

855
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 6: sort of have a process of you know, talk through

856
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 6: what might come up as you're discussing it, Sit with it.

857
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 6: Don't rush because you don't want to shock yourself. It's

858
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 6: not an end race, you know, it's not just sort

859
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 6: of it's a process, like any relationship is not an

860
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 6: end goal.

861
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 1: And also to come to it from a place of strength.

862
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: You never want to use non monogamy as like, oh,

863
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: you know there's been infidelity, so let's open up the relationship,

864
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 1: or you know the relationship isn't going great, maybe non

865
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: monogamy will solve everything. I think a bit of advice

866
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 1: that when we were starting to open up, someone said

867
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: that no monogamy is almost like a magnifying glass, you know,

868
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 1: and if you hold it over your relationship, and if

869
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: your relationship is already strong and you have strong communication,

870
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 1: these things will blossom and bloom within a non monogamous context.

871
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: But if there are cracks, if you don't have great communication,

872
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:48,919
Speaker 1: if you take each other for granted, or you're using

873
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 1: it as a band aid, you know, it's almost it's

874
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,240
Speaker 1: going to be very difficult and could you know, completely

875
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 1: implode the relationship. So just really understanding where you're coming

876
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: from within your current relationship before or kind of looking outwards.

877
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, so interesting when you began and did someone tell

878
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:07,839
Speaker 2: you to take them? I think what you just said,

879
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:14,800
Speaker 2: Abby was absolutely beautiful. Just small steps, be gentle, patient, kind,

880
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 2: I guess kind with yourself and your partner did was

881
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 2: that your was that what you were, how you were

882
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 2: being mentored when you first came in.

883
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:26,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, that was how we approached it. We spoke about

884
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 6: potentially opening up our relationship for almost a year before

885
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 6: we acted on that, and then we started going to

886
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 6: some talks about non monogamy and different discussions, so, you know,

887
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 6: not diving into that sort of sexual experiences of it,

888
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 6: but learning about it and meeting other people was really important.

889
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 1: And finding great examples of no monogamous relationships because we

890
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 1: were so fortunate to meet people who'd been married thirty

891
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: years and no monogamous for twenty years, like people who

892
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: had really had so much life experience, and we just

893
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 1: gravitated towards just like A were saying about storytelling, We're

894
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 1: gravitated towards the stories, you know, and that's what we

895
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: try to do in regards to anything like monogamous relationships

896
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: that are beautiful and fruitful. And your story is also

897
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 1: an incredible one, and so I think just looking for

898
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 1: those beautiful like stories of connection and trying to take

899
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 1: as much as we can from those.

900
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 4: I think, for me, the.

901
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 3: Thing about the both of you that really strikes me is,

902
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 3: you know, monogamy, non monogamy, whatever, it's just you know,

903
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,760
Speaker 3: I think if everyone just took took home, the amount

904
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 3: of communication that you both have is really actually inspiring

905
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 3: and incredibly beautiful. And this is why you can be

906
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 3: whoever you want to be in this marriage, because you're

907
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,479
Speaker 3: so open with each other. And that's everything. I mean,

908
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,439
Speaker 3: you know, relationship one on one is communication. No one

909
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 3: says anything different than how do I get on the

910
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 3: same playing with my husband wife? It's communication and you've

911
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,320
Speaker 3: got it so beautifly happening within the two of you.

912
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 4: So it's it's to you. Kudos to both of you.

913
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 6: Thanks aally, thank you.

914
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 2: Let's do the pulse, so we'll do a little thing

915
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 2: at the end.

916
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 5: We're all excited.

917
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 2: Short, short answers, but we both can you both.

918
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 6: Answer the same question at the same time.

919
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 2: We want to hear your answer. William's got a big voice. Okay,

920
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 2: for question number one? What brings you.

921
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 6: Joy, curiosity and.

922
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 5: Fun?

923
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 6: Yeah, like I guess specific examples talking family.

924
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 1: Times, family, parenting each other, creativity, curiosity.

925
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:44,720
Speaker 3: Is there one time that you would love to revisit

926
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 3: in your life?

927
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 5: I think the New York New York chapter, New York chapter.

928
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,439
Speaker 1: We love New York and we I proposed to Abby

929
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 1: in New York at the Met Opera in the in

930
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:59,399
Speaker 1: the foyer, like you know, those those moments are hold

931
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:00,359
Speaker 1: a deep place my heart.

932
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I would say the same thing. The New

933
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 6: York chapter. We miss it dearly. It almost feels like Narnia. Now, yeah,

934
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 6: that's how I think about it.

935
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 5: The bagels, O, yes, every day I missed those bagels.

936
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 2: Gods, the New York bagels.

937
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 5: So I heard.

938
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:18,879
Speaker 2: You know why why they taste so good? It's the water.

939
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's the water. It's the New York water.

940
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,879
Speaker 2: It's the same with Guinness beer. Send to concentrate over

941
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 2: from from from Dublin and they mix it with the

942
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 2: New York water.

943
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 3: Not the same.

944
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 2: It tastes really great.

945
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 4: The No, the Guinness is best in Ireland. Don't tell me.

946
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 3: What is me? Yeah, I'm hearing the Irish.

947
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 4: Irish people screaming.

948
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 2: The Irish people are happy about That's why they love

949
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 2: New York so much. Because the beer tastes just as

950
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 2: good because it's the New York water which makes the

951
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,280
Speaker 2: bagels and the pizza bases taste. I love New York pizza.

952
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 2: What do you miss when you die, Chris? What do

953
00:48:58,560 --> 00:48:59,800
Speaker 2: you miss when you're not together?

954
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 6: Oh? Look, we're always in charge.

955
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 5: We have.

956
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,359
Speaker 1: We do message each other a lot, like you know,

957
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 1: there's like twenty thousand photos in our camera roll just

958
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 1: to each other and WhatsApp, like you know, it's.

959
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 6: It's we're never not in contact, right, there's always something happening.

960
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but but I think I definitely there's been moments,

961
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 1: you know, there's been times where you know, we haven't chatted,

962
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: you know, for I'd probably say the longest is like

963
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: a day or two, Like, yeah, it's really it's really

964
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 1: not that long that we're apart from each other. But

965
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 1: I think there's certainly an amount of time where I

966
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 1: just find myself missing, like you know, the companionship. You know,

967
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 1: we have so much fun together. We're always laughing. There's

968
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 1: always something funny happening, like no monogamy. Also, there's so

969
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 1: many constellations of different things to talk about, and.

970
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 5: You know, so it's there's just funny things. There's a

971
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 5: lot of funny things that go on.

972
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: So I think I think whenever we don't talk, you know,

973
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 1: for an extended period of time, it's kind of for me,

974
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 1: it's the humor and just the communication.

975
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 3: Okay, last question. One word to describe each other.

976
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 5: Oh so many words. That's a hard question.

977
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:20,839
Speaker 6: So I would say wise, for you, even from when

978
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 6: we first met, when you were a young man of

979
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:27,239
Speaker 6: twenty one, you've always had a bit of a you've

980
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 6: had wisdom, an intuition, but also you're hilarious.

981
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 5: I just feel like you are.

982
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 6: I know, that's a weird thing to say about it.

983
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:41,959
Speaker 5: You know, your man, but you are that's very kind.

984
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 1: I would say curious and something that I'm endlessly attracted

985
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 1: to in Abby is just this sense of curiosity, not

986
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 1: just for relationships, but for life, you know, for the

987
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 1: way she moves through the world, her friendships. She's always

988
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 1: curious about other people. She's interested in connecting. I think

989
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 1: the curiosity feeds into that, it feeds into being a

990
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: creative person. So I would say curiosity.

991
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 2: Can you just share a couple of funny Is there

992
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 2: funny experiences in monogamy?

993
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 3: Oh?

994
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, always, can you share?

995
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 1: I think one of the funniest experiences when when we

996
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: were kind of initially opening up and we were meeting

997
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 1: up with a couple up in Boston. Yes, and so

998
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:28,320
Speaker 1: we became kind of started. We met these people online.

999
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 1: We were down in Nashville at the time, and we

1000
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 1: kind of met online and we're going to catch up

1001
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: in Nashville cross paths, and we weren't able to meet

1002
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 1: up in Nashville, so they lived in Boston.

1003
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 5: We were in New York.

1004
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 1: We were ships in the night, but we were ships

1005
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 1: in the night, so we're like, Okay, let's catch up

1006
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: in Boston. And so everything was online. We were talking

1007
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 1: lots we're sending photos. They were lovely, you know, and

1008
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 1: then we started to get a little bit convinced that

1009
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:53,959
Speaker 1: they were catfishing us and that they.

1010
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:54,720
Speaker 5: Weren't real people.

1011
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,720
Speaker 1: Yes, so we drive four hours up to Boston, right

1012
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 1: and where at this restaurant where they told us to

1013
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 1: kind of meet them. And then the excuses start coming in,

1014
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:11,280
Speaker 1: like running a little bit late, you know, well, something's

1015
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 1: come up, will be there soon.

1016
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:15,959
Speaker 6: And I started to get paranoid and I was looking

1017
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 6: around this restaurant. There was this man sitting in the

1018
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 6: corner and I said.

1019
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:21,399
Speaker 5: I bet it's that's him. That's the cat bit right

1020
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:21,959
Speaker 5: over there.

1021
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 6: There's something definitely going on.

1022
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 1: And the excuses also became even more elaborate, like like

1023
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 1: we knew that he was a firefighter, and he was like, oh,

1024
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 1: you know, I had to go to a firefighter funeral,

1025
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 1: so this is why I'm late. And we're like okay,

1026
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 1: like no worries, like no rush, you know. And it

1027
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 1: got to the point where they were like an hour.

1028
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 5: Over an hour, we're about to leave.

1029
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: We were about to leave. We're like we're going to

1030
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: finish our drink and then we're out of here because

1031
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:46,800
Speaker 1: someone is watching us. And this is like some crazy

1032
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 1: joke and we had a nice airban bit anyway, so

1033
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:50,839
Speaker 1: we're like, oh, we're going to have a great time.

1034
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 5: This is just a funny experience.

1035
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:55,839
Speaker 1: And then they rock up and it was actually they

1036
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,359
Speaker 1: were real, and they were also just we're very good

1037
00:52:58,360 --> 00:52:58,839
Speaker 1: friends of this.

1038
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 5: Day and the absolutely beautiful. This lovely cos absolutely lovely.

1039
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:05,280
Speaker 1: And the amazing part about that story is the reason

1040
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 1: they were late, and they hadn't shared this with us.

1041
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 1: They and they shared with us the next day because

1042
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 1: we exchanged kind of social media handles and they said,

1043
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,280
Speaker 1: you know, the reason we didn't exchange social media handles

1044
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: with you guys before is we're actually parents, and we

1045
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 1: didn't we thought we felt too embarrassed to say that

1046
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 1: we were non monogamous and parents because we thought you

1047
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: might judge us. So just so you know, our instagrams

1048
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 1: are full of you know us, you know, going to

1049
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 1: fire fighting functions and with our kids and.

1050
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 5: So and so.

1051
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 1: And the reason they were late was because they had

1052
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:38,920
Speaker 1: babysitter problems and they couldn't.

1053
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 5: Get that taking too long. It was taken too long,

1054
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 5: but they.

1055
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 1: Hadn't told us the reason, so they they were just

1056
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 1: freaking out about like all the possible all the possible

1057
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 1: kind of excuses they could come up with, and so.

1058
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,319
Speaker 6: But that was really interesting because it also you know,

1059
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 6: showed us the level of sort of judgment that there

1060
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 6: can be, you know, for them as parents to other

1061
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,440
Speaker 6: non monogamous people, I think because we weren't parents at

1062
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 6: the time.

1063
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 1: Then and then they also formed as beautiful examples of

1064
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 1: people who were non monogamous who also had a beautiful

1065
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 1: family life, and that started the conversations inspiring. Yeah, we

1066
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: found them to be super inspiring in credit conversations with us,

1067
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 1: where we thought, maybe, you know, we can be non

1068
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:20,439
Speaker 1: monogamous and great parents as well.

1069
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 5: This is a great example of that. And and you know,

1070
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 5: it was. It was a crazy story and there's so

1071
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 5: many things came out of it, exciting.

1072
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:33,479
Speaker 2: Curious and wise. Abby and Liam, thank you so much.

1073
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 2: I feel wiser and more experienced just being around you

1074
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 2: and experiencing this today. So thanks, really appreciate your time.

1075
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 6: Thank you for having us, Thanks for having us being

1076
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:48,760
Speaker 6: great chat