WEBVTT - “Jailing is failing”: Claude Robinson Pt.2

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective see a side of life the average persons never

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<v Speaker 1>exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys staid,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public.

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<v Speaker 2>Into the world in which I operated.

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<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world.

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<v Speaker 1>Claud Robertson, Welcome back to I Catch Killers.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks Gerry.

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<v Speaker 1>Now in part one, Claude, We've got a very interesting

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<v Speaker 1>take on your life, and I've got to say it.

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<v Speaker 1>I've just been thinking about the.

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<v Speaker 2>Chaos of your life, the chaos of your life.

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<v Speaker 1>When it goes down a path that you're dependent on drugs.

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<v Speaker 1>You did seven years in prison, caught for different things,

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<v Speaker 1>made a lot of stupid decisions.

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<v Speaker 2>Yep, likely.

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<v Speaker 1>And I look at it the way that your life is,

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<v Speaker 1>the way we left you in and out the jail,

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<v Speaker 1>in there and just not learning, still your addictions carrying

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<v Speaker 1>through the prison system. I got to say, from my

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<v Speaker 1>point of view, it looked like you're going down the

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<v Speaker 1>one way straight. You're even going to end up dead

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<v Speaker 1>or in prison for the rest of your life.

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<v Speaker 2>That's funny you say that, because that was a pivotal moment.

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<v Speaker 2>I think. You know, we left the last time. My

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<v Speaker 2>dad had died at Gold and I was up for

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<v Speaker 2>a parole and I was going to Rainbow Lodge where

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<v Speaker 2>on our work, and I remember that last six months

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<v Speaker 2>coming up. I'd got my parole, I got the date,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was getting in some inheritance. And the insanity

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<v Speaker 2>was I thought this because through all that chaos, I

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<v Speaker 2>still had believe that a big bag of money or

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<v Speaker 2>a big bag of dope would fix it all. And

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<v Speaker 2>I thought this, and I was right, this was it.

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<v Speaker 1>I was going to get out, so the big bag

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<v Speaker 1>of money, to get the big bag of dope or

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<v Speaker 1>the big bag of money to invest wisely and become

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<v Speaker 1>a citizen.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah probably not, yeah, probably not invest wisely. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>I think you know when I was coming out. You

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<v Speaker 2>know what, I don't even think I thought about it

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<v Speaker 2>that much. This is it.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just I'm wondering when you've gone through that like

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<v Speaker 1>you did three years in gold when you were sold

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<v Speaker 1>of the prison officer in Cesnok, you're not having a

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<v Speaker 1>good time in Golden Goblin's not a fun place.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a horrible place. Do you so you were what

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<v Speaker 2>at this age you were thirty thirty six thirty six?

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<v Speaker 1>Do you have moments of reflection when you're sitting there,

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<v Speaker 1>because you've got a lot of time to time to

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<v Speaker 1>think when you're in prison, do you have moments and think,

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<v Speaker 1>why has my life gone down this path? Not?

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<v Speaker 2>At that stay, I think I was so focused on

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<v Speaker 2>that I was getting my inheritance, that this was going

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<v Speaker 2>to change everything, and still in huge.

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<v Speaker 1>Change everything, as in give you access to drugs?

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<v Speaker 2>What was the change? Well, I think still then I

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<v Speaker 2>was in a lot of denial and I still thought

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<v Speaker 2>I could use manageably if I had enough access and

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<v Speaker 2>I did it the right way.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, so I've got money, I can still have my drugs.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't have to be a criminal, and I live all.

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<v Speaker 2>Not do crime. That I'm not desperate crime insane, So

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I leave there and I end up at

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<v Speaker 2>Rainbow Lodge, and you know, two weeks later, I and

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<v Speaker 2>at this stage, I'm still on I think i'd reduce

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<v Speaker 2>I was only seventy five meals of a methadone because

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<v Speaker 2>they wouldn't let me on parole without still being on methodone.

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<v Speaker 2>Two weeks after that, you know, I get my inheritance,

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<v Speaker 2>and five weeks later I'm back in prison. But that

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<v Speaker 2>last day, you know, and I sat in the Estoria

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<v Speaker 2>with my girlfriend at the time, and I just shot

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<v Speaker 2>it all up on co in heroin, and I remember

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<v Speaker 2>the insanity of going, you know, when it gets to

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<v Speaker 2>thirty twenty ten, well stop, yeah, yeah, you're going down.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, we'll stop like well, you know. And what

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<v Speaker 2>happened was I wake up the last day and it

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<v Speaker 2>had all gone, and I was that crazy that I

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<v Speaker 2>jumped a cab with her because I again I just thought,

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<v Speaker 2>I need to get a shot of heroin to work

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<v Speaker 2>out what I'm going to do, just insane. So I

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<v Speaker 2>jump a cab. I go to the Leichhart Social Security

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<v Speaker 2>Office where I'm registered at because I've been at Rainbow

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<v Speaker 2>Lodge and I'm that insane I believe that. I go

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<v Speaker 2>up to the counter and I said to my girlfriend,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll get a counter check because I'll tell them i'm

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<v Speaker 2>on the run, which I was at this stage from parole,

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<v Speaker 2>and they'll give it to me because otherwise I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to have to rob someone.

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<v Speaker 3>And like I thought, that was that's your logic, that

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<v Speaker 3>was my logic.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I go up to the guy and you

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<v Speaker 2>can still get counter checks in those days, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>he said no, and I just jumped the counter and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, hit him and robbed him. And don't worry

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<v Speaker 2>about prison. The Airport centerally know more about you than

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<v Speaker 2>fucking anyway. It was the most in and it camera

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<v Speaker 2>like it was just so desperate, and I knew I

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<v Speaker 2>was in trouble because as we were running out with

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<v Speaker 2>this guy's will and phone my girlfriend, who unfortunately is

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<v Speaker 2>still up the cross using said to me, you're fucking fucked,

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<v Speaker 2>And I thought, well, I'm in trouble here because she's bad,

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<v Speaker 2>you know if she reckons. Yeah, so you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>jump another two cabs and it's like a movie because

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<v Speaker 2>we're going up Paramatta Road towards Kings Cross and all

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<v Speaker 2>the vans are coming towards like can't And I get

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<v Speaker 2>there and you know, I've got this phone and still

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<v Speaker 2>I'm thinking, I just got to get a shot at

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<v Speaker 2>Heroin to work out what I'm going to do, and pivotal,

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<v Speaker 2>very pertle moment at a moment of clarity, spiritual awaiting,

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<v Speaker 2>call it whatever you want. I saw the undercovers across

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<v Speaker 2>the road. My girlfriend goes, I think they've peggja. Something

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<v Speaker 2>just overcame. I said, I can't do this anymore. I

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<v Speaker 2>gave the wallet, the phone and kisser and said I'm

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<v Speaker 2>going to give myself up. And I remember walking across

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<v Speaker 2>the road and they're looking at me and I'm walking

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<v Speaker 2>towards it, and you know, I don't know what they thought,

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<v Speaker 2>but they're on, you know, And I said, oh, you're

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<v Speaker 2>looking for me. They gave them my name and they're

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<v Speaker 2>you know, And I was so defeated that he said,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't even need to carf your doing. I said, no,

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<v Speaker 2>you know.

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<v Speaker 1>Is that that watershed name of is that.

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<v Speaker 2>One hundred percent? One hundred percent? You know? And they

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<v Speaker 2>put me because at King's Cross they're not even cells

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<v Speaker 2>there like docs, and I just remember them put me

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<v Speaker 2>in there. And I just burst out crying and just thought,

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<v Speaker 2>fuck that. Fuck that's over, you know now, And I

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<v Speaker 2>just wanted to go back where there was no responsibility.

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<v Speaker 2>In prison.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well that's you can become institutionalized. Like I've said,

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<v Speaker 1>had a lot of people say to me when I

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<v Speaker 1>was in the cops that it's easier in there. Im fair,

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<v Speaker 1>I know what I'm doing, I know people in there.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't have to worry about where I'm going to

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<v Speaker 1>get my next dollar's.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, i'd left, you know, that was it. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>this was the moment I'd wait my whole life for,

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<v Speaker 2>and again it just ended in this disaster. Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>So, and I'm really interested in what's going through your

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<v Speaker 1>mind because I think people who have been listening to

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<v Speaker 1>this podcast will really get a sense of how desperate

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<v Speaker 1>and ridiculous the life of an addict is. Yeah, it's chaos. Yep,

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<v Speaker 1>you're giving yourself up. Did you just think, Okay, this

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<v Speaker 1>is going to be my life. Just send me back

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<v Speaker 1>back to prison because you get your drugs in prison.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah. I had access to drugs every single

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<v Speaker 2>not that I use them every day, but there's access.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's full of drugs. No, you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>just I didn't know what I thought. I just knew

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<v Speaker 2>I needed to be protected from myself, you know. And

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<v Speaker 2>so I end up back at MRC, and I remember,

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<v Speaker 2>it's embarrassing to even talk about it, and I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to the wing officer and saying, I want to see

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<v Speaker 2>the AOD you know, the drug worker, you know, And

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<v Speaker 2>he said to me about time Robert, and I was

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<v Speaker 2>quite offended. Yeah, you know, I'm the last to catch

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<v Speaker 2>on always.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, with any addiction, I think the first step

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<v Speaker 1>is you've got to want to give it up, isn't it.

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<v Speaker 1>You within yourself have got one to stop it. So

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<v Speaker 1>that's probably the first step you needed to take.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the first step. The second step is I'm walking

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<v Speaker 2>on doing laps in at MWRC. You know, I've been

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<v Speaker 2>back in a couple of weeks. I've got a sweeper's job,

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<v Speaker 2>I've got a one out with a TV full of cockroaches,

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<v Speaker 2>and I've got nikes on and me and this other

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<v Speaker 2>guy are hanging shit on this other guy because he's

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<v Speaker 2>went and done lot volleys and there's a guy on

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<v Speaker 2>the other side of him doing laps and that's I'm

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<v Speaker 2>like thirty six, got nikes and greens on, thinking I'm

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<v Speaker 2>killing it. We're hanging shit because that's what you're doing jail.

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<v Speaker 2>You have to hang shit on someone else to feel

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<v Speaker 2>better about itself. And there's the next guy across from him,

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<v Speaker 2>looked in his sixties, could have been younger, and I

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<v Speaker 2>just I just had this moment where I looked past

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<v Speaker 2>the guy in the dun lot Volleys and went, fuck,

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<v Speaker 2>it's that's it. It's this is gonna Is this it?

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<v Speaker 1>You know?

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<v Speaker 2>Is this it?

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<v Speaker 1>I've heard people have spent a lot of time in

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<v Speaker 1>prison when they come to the realization said when they

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<v Speaker 1>see the older prisoners, and it's all exciting when you're

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<v Speaker 1>a young gangster.

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<v Speaker 2>You know I'm going to make a mark. I'm a

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<v Speaker 2>tough guy.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm doing this, and there was some glory to it,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know you had the women, you had this,

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<v Speaker 1>you had that. And then then they see the people

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<v Speaker 1>that had been broken by the jail system and how

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<v Speaker 1>sad it really is. You look a look at that old,

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<v Speaker 1>old person. You're looking at that old person thinking, fuck,

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<v Speaker 1>that could be me very soon.

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<v Speaker 2>One hundred percent. So I've breached my paroles. I'm in

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<v Speaker 2>for a breach of parole and a new assault charge

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, I think that's still from personal they

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<v Speaker 2>caught they charged me with so but first of all,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't even I don't worry even about the charge

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<v Speaker 2>I got before the parole board. And I've seen the

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<v Speaker 2>AOD worker and I'm like, fuck, I'm ready to change.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to go rehab. And he writes a report

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<v Speaker 2>and all that, and I go before the parole b

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<v Speaker 2>and the parole board because I met mac. So it's

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<v Speaker 2>I'm in a booth like this and my lawyer and

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<v Speaker 2>the parole border in the city and I've just got

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<v Speaker 2>a phone to speak to my lawyer. I speak, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I want to go to who's aware of it? What

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<v Speaker 2>you know? And I'm thinking, yeah, they're gonna they're gonna

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<v Speaker 2>clap me, like insaying like and go oh about time,

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<v Speaker 2>robo what a good man. He's finally decided, Yeah, it

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<v Speaker 2>comes on. He you know, my lawyer does his bit,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and they go away for like ninety seconds

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<v Speaker 2>and come back and they just changed the parole laws

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<v Speaker 2>there so it was automatic one year then for breaching

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<v Speaker 2>for breaching automatic, So they came back and they just said,

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<v Speaker 2>may you're not going anywhere. You fucking you've been out

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<v Speaker 2>five six weeks. You're doing a year. We'll see you

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<v Speaker 2>in a year. I just broke down cry and it

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<v Speaker 2>saved me because the guard was he didn't know what

0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:53.280
<v Speaker 2>to do, so he didn't come and grab me. But

0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:56.480
<v Speaker 2>I grabbed the phone again and my lawyer was still there,

0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:00.120
<v Speaker 2>and like I just knew I just needed some and

0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:01.600
<v Speaker 2>I said to him, mate, you've got to get it.

0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:03.880
<v Speaker 2>You've got to get I need something. I need. Fuck,

0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:07.000
<v Speaker 2>I can't do this again. I need something. I need

0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:10.600
<v Speaker 2>it to be different. To this day, they still don't

0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:14.080
<v Speaker 2>know what he said to them because it was off.

0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:17.839
<v Speaker 2>The screen was off, you know, and you know because

0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:19.480
<v Speaker 2>I was crying the guard and then the guard says

0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:21.120
<v Speaker 2>that they're going to come back on. They come back

0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.600
<v Speaker 2>on the screen and they say to me, all right,

0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:28.160
<v Speaker 2>you know you're lawyers, but you're going to still do

0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:30.040
<v Speaker 2>a year in prison, but we're going to send you

0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:33.000
<v Speaker 2>to do a rehab in jail called Nara Nara. And

0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:35.600
<v Speaker 2>that was enough. Okay, that was I just thought, fuck,

0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:36.559
<v Speaker 2>all right, that was hope.

0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:38.600
<v Speaker 1>You know, that was enough as a program they're going

0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:39.720
<v Speaker 1>to put you on in prison.

0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:42.040
<v Speaker 2>They were saying, so the last six months because it

0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:44.160
<v Speaker 2>went for six months, I think it did. So you

0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:47.080
<v Speaker 2>do six months and then the last six months of

0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:50.000
<v Speaker 2>this period and by that, you know. So as soon

0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:51.480
<v Speaker 2>as I got that, you know, I speak to my line,

0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:54.360
<v Speaker 2>plead guilty to the charge, you know, and they don't

0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:54.679
<v Speaker 2>give me.

0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:56.400
<v Speaker 3>I don't know what they gave me eight months.

0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:58.400
<v Speaker 2>Or whatever it was. So you know, I wasn't going

0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:00.960
<v Speaker 2>to do any more time. So what was you said?

0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:04.800
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that was enough? That is that really the turning point? Yeah?

0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:08.439
<v Speaker 1>Is that your moment where you've gone, I'm going to

0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:09.240
<v Speaker 1>make this work.

0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:11.800
<v Speaker 2>It is. But I'll tell you addiction such a strong

0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:16.600
<v Speaker 2>thing because I then go to fifteen when they moved

0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:18.240
<v Speaker 2>me to Long Bay because that's where the program was.

0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:20.360
<v Speaker 2>So I'm at fifteen Wing, not where the program is,

0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:24.840
<v Speaker 2>pre the program, and I'm using every day.

0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:29.040
<v Speaker 1>Even so, this is a great new model, claud that

0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.280
<v Speaker 1>has pleaded with everyone, and there people are moving mountains

0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:33.640
<v Speaker 1>to put in this program.

0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:36.199
<v Speaker 2>But as you just said before, I was broken. That

0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:39.920
<v Speaker 2>was pathetic. So you know, the start shooting the wire

0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:43.120
<v Speaker 2>of the fence at Paramatta, you know, getting stabbed. Now

0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:45.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm swiping, I'm swapping my white ox for Sarah Wall

0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:47.640
<v Speaker 2>to take on top of my one hundred and fifty

0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:49.920
<v Speaker 2>mils A methodone to fucking wipe me out every night

0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:52.760
<v Speaker 2>and getting up every morning with my We used to

0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.560
<v Speaker 2>have they would put a video on in the wing,

0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:57.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, and your wake up a sh as a

0:12:57.840 --> 0:12:59.800
<v Speaker 2>video and I'd have porridge a'll owed me that I

0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:03.320
<v Speaker 2>can't remember making, and I go, oh fucking I'd see

0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:06.320
<v Speaker 2>the guy I bought the cerracle off. I go, you know, fuck,

0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:08.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm not doing that again. At three o'clock, I'd be

0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:10.760
<v Speaker 2>racing to his cell, thinking, fuck, I hope he hasn't

0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:12.720
<v Speaker 2>sold him and ever you go, I know you're always

0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:15.840
<v Speaker 2>coming back. Yeah, you know. And that was and that

0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:19.160
<v Speaker 2>was changed. But I couldn't stop. And then you know,

0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:23.600
<v Speaker 2>I got into Nara Noura, and then I made the

0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:27.560
<v Speaker 2>first serious decision. I just went all right because I

0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:31.439
<v Speaker 2>was on methadone. I've never been allowed to come off

0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.679
<v Speaker 2>methadone in jail because of the risk I posed. So

0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:37.120
<v Speaker 2>they were going to reduce me from one hundred and

0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:38.880
<v Speaker 2>fifty down to fifty before they.

0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:43.200
<v Speaker 1>And just explain for people. I think most people understand methadone,

0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:45.719
<v Speaker 1>but explain the science behind.

0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.319
<v Speaker 2>That, so they give it to you as a blocker

0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:52.160
<v Speaker 2>to stop you from using heroin. So it's the Germans invented,

0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:55.320
<v Speaker 2>and actually because they couldn't get access to opium because

0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:58.360
<v Speaker 2>the British rought India and Afghanistan in World War two.

0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:01.800
<v Speaker 2>So they need it because you know, you needed it

0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:04.080
<v Speaker 2>from all the wounded soldiers and stuff. So it's a

0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:05.880
<v Speaker 2>long acting so you can you drink it once a

0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:08.040
<v Speaker 2>day and it last twenty four hours and it takes

0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:12.080
<v Speaker 2>away the appetite for heroin. Or if I was on

0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:14.600
<v Speaker 2>that high, you couldn't use any heroin, it wouldn't make

0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:18.200
<v Speaker 2>any difference. So they started to reduce me. But that

0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.600
<v Speaker 2>was when I the first serious and I believe this

0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:24.280
<v Speaker 2>was the start of my recovery because I made it

0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:27.000
<v Speaker 2>not to anyone else, no one to myself. In my cell,

0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:28.880
<v Speaker 2>I went, or I'm just going to take my methodone

0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:32.400
<v Speaker 2>as prescribed, nothing else. That's it, because that's I couldn't

0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:34.160
<v Speaker 2>come off it. I knew that I had to accept

0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:37.960
<v Speaker 2>my circumstances, but I had to make a commitment, and

0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:40.400
<v Speaker 2>I did that and I got through that program. I

0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:44.640
<v Speaker 2>got down to fifty mils of methodone, and I couldn't

0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:47.680
<v Speaker 2>get parole because my family lived in a state my

0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:50.880
<v Speaker 2>parents were didn't because they changed the parole or so

0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:53.200
<v Speaker 2>you needed a suitable address, so you had to do

0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:55.280
<v Speaker 2>it an extra year and you needed a suit and

0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.280
<v Speaker 2>I couldn't get a suitable address, which I'm so glad

0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:01.920
<v Speaker 2>because the only place that I could go to And again,

0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:06.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, sliding door moment. You know, at that time,

0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:08.240
<v Speaker 2>there was two places in the world that brought you

0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:11.120
<v Speaker 2>off methadone. There was Who's in Sydney and there was

0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:14.280
<v Speaker 2>one in New York. And I was lucky. So you know,

0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:19.600
<v Speaker 2>I got parole to Who's, which was on Cleveland Street,

0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:21.960
<v Speaker 2>and I went back down to the methadone clinic that

0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:24.080
<v Speaker 2>I used to go to and I had to walk

0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:26.360
<v Speaker 2>down there, and you know, they took me to meetings

0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:31.720
<v Speaker 2>of Narcotics Anonymous, and they you know, reduced me off heroin,

0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:35.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, And but you know, it was there was

0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:38.480
<v Speaker 2>pivotal moments there because it was there was about eighteen

0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:40.280
<v Speaker 2>people in the house, I remember, but sitting out the

0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:44.320
<v Speaker 2>back one night and never one was winge. And at

0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.480
<v Speaker 2>this stage, you know how shit it was, I thought

0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:49.080
<v Speaker 2>it was the fucking best thing that had ever happened

0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:54.000
<v Speaker 2>to me, And it's crazy. The food, because the food

0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:56.480
<v Speaker 2>in jail shit, you know, and it's worse now than

0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:58.160
<v Speaker 2>when I was in there, but it was because we

0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:02.040
<v Speaker 2>could cook up the food. But I had three pellows

0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.800
<v Speaker 2>and I know that sounds insane, but I spent half

0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:07.840
<v Speaker 2>of my time in prison. They will give you a

0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:10.200
<v Speaker 2>pellow slip, but no pellow and you had to roll

0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.080
<v Speaker 2>up your tracksuit pants to put it inside the pellow

0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:13.840
<v Speaker 2>slip to sleep on.

0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:17.920
<v Speaker 3>So I seen it so little luxuries those and they

0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:18.800
<v Speaker 3>call me claude.

0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:21.400
<v Speaker 2>You know. I usually heard me at Parliament. You know.

0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:23.800
<v Speaker 2>I started my speech three five nine two three seven

0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:24.480
<v Speaker 2>my MIN number.

0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:27.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah you did, and you made a point and

0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:30.360
<v Speaker 1>I understood the point, but I think it hit people

0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:33.040
<v Speaker 1>pretty hard. That's your identification when you're in prison, you're

0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:33.840
<v Speaker 1>mid number.

0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:36.840
<v Speaker 2>And that's mine for life. No one will no one

0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:39.160
<v Speaker 2>else will ever get that number. You know, as I

0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:41.600
<v Speaker 2>said there, I don't remember my childhood phone number, but

0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:43.800
<v Speaker 2>my MIN number. And I haven't been in for seventeen years

0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:46.960
<v Speaker 2>because in prison you can't do anything without that. In

0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:50.240
<v Speaker 2>the moment, you know, that's what you become, that number.

0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:54.200
<v Speaker 2>So it's very dehumanizing. So yeah, so I was at

0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:57.120
<v Speaker 2>and I was on parole, and I was that rehabing parole.

0:16:57.120 --> 0:16:59.640
<v Speaker 2>It said to me, I had to do six months

0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:01.560
<v Speaker 2>in who And I remember before going there, I had

0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:04.480
<v Speaker 2>an argument with one of the staff at Nara Nura,

0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:08.440
<v Speaker 2>one of many along the way, you know, and I'm like, fuck,

0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:10.560
<v Speaker 2>I've just done all this time. It was fucking six

0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:13.240
<v Speaker 2>months and I didn't know but he was a recovering

0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:17.560
<v Speaker 2>addict too, and he just he said, you're a fucking idiot, CLRD,

0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:19.560
<v Speaker 2>You're a fucking idiot. You'll do two years for a

0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.600
<v Speaker 2>fifty dollar shot at heroin, but you won't do six

0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:25.359
<v Speaker 2>months to change your life. And I didn't have an answer.

0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:28.119
<v Speaker 1>When he breaks it down like that, it's a pretty

0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:29.880
<v Speaker 1>hard thing to come back again.

0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:32.159
<v Speaker 2>Fuck. I just grabbed my tail and walked out. And

0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:34.159
<v Speaker 2>it was one of those many moments that rehab I

0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:35.679
<v Speaker 2>went into. You know, they got me down to the

0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:38.800
<v Speaker 2>last mill of methadone and I'm like, you know, I

0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:41.240
<v Speaker 2>remember going up and seending the coordinator and going, fuck,

0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.080
<v Speaker 2>I don't need to do it. I can jump off now,

0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:48.800
<v Speaker 2>you know. And again, pivotal moment. He didn't say to me, no,

0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.680
<v Speaker 2>you've got to take it. These are the rules. He

0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:55.240
<v Speaker 2>asked me a question, He said, tell me what's happened

0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:59.080
<v Speaker 2>every other time you've come off methadone? And I went, fuck,

0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:03.360
<v Speaker 2>I've used Tehran every time. And he said, mate, we've

0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:06.639
<v Speaker 2>brought hundreds of people off methodone they've never used again.

0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:08.680
<v Speaker 2>Another moment of humility.

0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:13.720
<v Speaker 1>Okay, all these little moments. And it's interesting you say humility,

0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:18.240
<v Speaker 1>but it's almost acceptance of how low you've hit. And

0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:20.520
<v Speaker 1>you've got to start listening to people because your path

0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:23.120
<v Speaker 1>is not going to see you clear.

0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:28.520
<v Speaker 2>Look it. You know, people go, what happened? What changed?

0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:31.720
<v Speaker 2>You know? And you know they want you to say

0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:34.560
<v Speaker 2>I had this spiritual fucking did what I was told

0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:36.840
<v Speaker 2>for the first time in my life, simple as that

0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:39.399
<v Speaker 2>that's the only thing that changed. And I just was

0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:41.919
<v Speaker 2>at this point where as you heard like, you know,

0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:44.880
<v Speaker 2>the decisions I'd made for the last twenty five years

0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:49.440
<v Speaker 2>were fucking terrible. Yeah, oh, you got no argument, you

0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:51.000
<v Speaker 2>know what I mean? And I just thought like, there's

0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.760
<v Speaker 2>nothing these people can do to harm me more than

0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:56.800
<v Speaker 2>I harm myself. And then you know that guy, you know,

0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:59.360
<v Speaker 2>he said six months to change your life. He was right.

0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:03.359
<v Speaker 2>That guy who said, you know, stay on the method

0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:06.160
<v Speaker 2>in one more week. I've never had methodone again. I've

0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:09.159
<v Speaker 2>never used the drug since I followed his path. So

0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:13.360
<v Speaker 2>I started to not only listen to what people see,

0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:16.280
<v Speaker 2>because I'm a very practical person, like your shit doesn't change.

0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:18.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm not in want like I needed. I want to

0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.439
<v Speaker 2>get better. And it started to get better, you know,

0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:23.480
<v Speaker 2>And you know, my life started to get better. And

0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:27.080
<v Speaker 2>you know that rehab that I complained about going to

0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:29.920
<v Speaker 2>for six months and parole is really clear. You leave

0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:32.720
<v Speaker 2>one day for any reason before your six months, you're

0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:34.720
<v Speaker 2>doing your bop. And I think I had twenty months

0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:38.960
<v Speaker 2>left or eighteen, okay, so you needed to be that. Yeah,

0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:42.480
<v Speaker 2>they know, they knew. They were really strict, like you weren't,

0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:43.200
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean?

0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:45.119
<v Speaker 1>And I think I get a sense with a lot

0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:46.879
<v Speaker 1>of addicts when they come and try to pull the

0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:50.359
<v Speaker 1>wool over people's eyes or whatever. It's people like you,

0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:54.000
<v Speaker 1>like you've become and the like the people that did

0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:56.240
<v Speaker 1>this to you, the ones that have been there, done

0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:58.200
<v Speaker 1>that know all the bullshit that comes out of your mouth,

0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:00.600
<v Speaker 1>because bullshit just comes out of the people's mouths when

0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:02.080
<v Speaker 1>they're addicted to drugs.

0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:03.679
<v Speaker 2>How do you know when a junkies line, you know,

0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:08.120
<v Speaker 2>their lips move. Yeah, I've heard that before. That's so true.

0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:10.840
<v Speaker 2>You know it is true, and you know and you

0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:17.679
<v Speaker 2>believe it. The other thing that happened in that that

0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:19.679
<v Speaker 2>started to happen in that Nara and Nura program that

0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.679
<v Speaker 2>was pivotal, and is what I talk about now is

0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:27.040
<v Speaker 2>I've never ever, ever seen anyone punished out of her behavior.

0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:31.240
<v Speaker 2>Don't stop it, why the behavior is in place. The

0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:33.640
<v Speaker 2>only way I've seen people change what happening in Nara

0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:37.120
<v Speaker 2>and Nora was the guards. We had to call each

0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:38.280
<v Speaker 2>other by our first names.

0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:42.560
<v Speaker 1>Okay, that's interesting, and let's take take the conversation there

0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:45.520
<v Speaker 1>because you know, quite often prison is about rules. You

0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:49.439
<v Speaker 1>break the rules, you get punished. That what you're saying

0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:55.040
<v Speaker 1>is that with this Nara that it wasn't about punishment. No,

0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:55.760
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't.

0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:59.000
<v Speaker 2>It was about helping you along the path. Yeah, it

0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:01.400
<v Speaker 2>was so different. You know that the guards would tell

0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:03.600
<v Speaker 2>me that you know, when they went to because they

0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:05.879
<v Speaker 2>volunteered to work in there, that they would scratch the

0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:08.400
<v Speaker 2>other guards would scratch their cars, let their ties down.

0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:11.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, some of them would have to stop eating

0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:14.439
<v Speaker 2>in the cafeteria because they would spit in their burgers.

0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:17.119
<v Speaker 1>They were being ostracized, whether you being you're soft on

0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:18.080
<v Speaker 1>these crims.

0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:21.360
<v Speaker 2>Yep, yep, yep. And that program's the most successful program

0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:24.080
<v Speaker 2>ever run in New South Wales and then they closed

0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:25.280
<v Speaker 2>it in twenty ten.

0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:29.199
<v Speaker 1>Right, I think that's something you're beating on about in

0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:30.120
<v Speaker 1>one of your talks.

0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:32.640
<v Speaker 2>Well, I spoke at the closing and I think the

0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:35.520
<v Speaker 2>Deputy Commissioner was there and that's the last time I

0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:37.760
<v Speaker 2>opened a speech with my min number was there and

0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:41.440
<v Speaker 2>I thought that speech at Parliament House was the same gravity.

0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:43.720
<v Speaker 1>So that you're saying that it was one of the

0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:45.400
<v Speaker 1>most successful programs, yep.

0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:48.920
<v Speaker 2>The most It was shut down when twenty ten. Why

0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:51.080
<v Speaker 2>why do you think that they said it was too expensive?

0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:53.760
<v Speaker 1>Okay, which is and it brings us right back to

0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:57.600
<v Speaker 1>where we started at the start with about the fiscal

0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:00.480
<v Speaker 1>side of keeping the keeping the person in cus Well.

0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:03.000
<v Speaker 2>It's insane, you know, as I spoke about in Parliament,

0:22:04.119 --> 0:22:06.280
<v Speaker 2>the police budget in New South Wales for the current

0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:08.960
<v Speaker 2>financial year is five point two billion dollars and the

0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:11.480
<v Speaker 2>corrective services budget is two point one b and so

0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:15.800
<v Speaker 2>seven point three billion dollars. The whole budget for housing

0:22:15.840 --> 0:22:17.920
<v Speaker 2>and homeless in New South Wales for the current year

0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:19.240
<v Speaker 2>is seven hundred and eighty million.

0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:23.520
<v Speaker 1>That's pretty startling when you break it down that.

0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:26.800
<v Speaker 2>You know, like it's and people it's insane. You know,

0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:29.320
<v Speaker 2>it really does come down to that. You know, when

0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:32.840
<v Speaker 2>you in prison someone for a year and I'm sorry,

0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:36.359
<v Speaker 2>and this may upset people, but prison offers no value

0:22:36.359 --> 0:22:39.400
<v Speaker 2>to the community. Now I'm not soft on crime. There

0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:42.320
<v Speaker 2>is people that fucking should never get out. We still

0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:45.520
<v Speaker 2>let them out. You know, if the guys in prison

0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:47.960
<v Speaker 2>got to them, you know, they wouldn't go and be there.

0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:51.600
<v Speaker 1>I know what you're saying, and prisoners i've spoken to

0:22:51.680 --> 0:22:55.159
<v Speaker 1>about prison reform, all acknowledged is some people that shouldn't

0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:58.240
<v Speaker 1>get out. Not a society need to be protecting mate.

0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:01.359
<v Speaker 2>I was at the dentist at Golden when they brought

0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:04.600
<v Speaker 2>in Ivan Malatt you know from super Max in the

0:23:04.640 --> 0:23:07.159
<v Speaker 2>orange suit, you know, and made the play and in

0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:09.920
<v Speaker 2>goldwhen you didn't speak to the guards after he left

0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:11.400
<v Speaker 2>because there was a chill in the air.

0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:15.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I actually saw him down in Golden and.

0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:17.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if evils, but fuck, I don't know,

0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:21.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, what I mean. And you know in Golden

0:23:21.560 --> 0:23:23.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, I was in there with Glover, the Granny murderer,

0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:25.760
<v Speaker 2>and you know that yard. I think that there was

0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:29.200
<v Speaker 2>forty blakes and then that killed sixty five people. And

0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:30.800
<v Speaker 2>I look back now and think, funk, I was just

0:23:30.840 --> 0:23:33.680
<v Speaker 2>a kid from the suburb smoking pot. How the fuck?

0:23:34.359 --> 0:23:37.080
<v Speaker 2>How do you get there? How am I? Why am I? Even? Yeah?

0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:39.160
<v Speaker 2>It was you know when I look back, that there

0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:42.399
<v Speaker 2>was you know, the change took a while, but it

0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:44.880
<v Speaker 2>really was. You know, I thought, these people just kill

0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:49.040
<v Speaker 2>people for killing people, like that's rights.

0:23:49.680 --> 0:23:52.120
<v Speaker 1>And I think the message gets lost. And I think

0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:56.240
<v Speaker 1>when we've had Mindy Story speaking to she's been on

0:23:56.000 --> 0:24:00.240
<v Speaker 1>the podcast and a lot of people saw the pushback. Well,

0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:02.919
<v Speaker 1>you're trying to help prisoners, and they're not distinguishing between

0:24:02.920 --> 0:24:05.800
<v Speaker 1>the Ivan Malats or the Claude Robertson's. It's just they're

0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:08.840
<v Speaker 1>all prisoners. This is how they should be treated. What

0:24:08.880 --> 0:24:12.720
<v Speaker 1>you're saying, with this lived experience and now seven llion

0:24:12.760 --> 0:24:15.920
<v Speaker 1>years out, seventillion years clean, seventeen years doing good work

0:24:15.960 --> 0:24:19.480
<v Speaker 1>for society, you're saying, we've got to change the system.

0:24:19.520 --> 0:24:22.000
<v Speaker 1>We've got to look at things differently, break it down there.

0:24:22.119 --> 0:24:24.800
<v Speaker 1>A lot of people listen to the podcast. What messaging do.

0:24:24.800 --> 0:24:29.160
<v Speaker 2>You want to go? You know, and I'm a very

0:24:29.200 --> 0:24:33.960
<v Speaker 2>pragmatic so the pure economics don't make sense, you know

0:24:34.000 --> 0:24:36.760
<v Speaker 2>what I mean? Seven point three billion dollars and that

0:24:36.800 --> 0:24:38.600
<v Speaker 2>doesn't even take anto the courts. If you had the

0:24:38.640 --> 0:24:41.200
<v Speaker 2>courts and all that in New South Wales alone, probably

0:24:41.240 --> 0:24:44.679
<v Speaker 2>ten billion dollars a year. We've got a housing crisis,

0:24:44.840 --> 0:24:47.199
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean. You know, the Minister was

0:24:47.240 --> 0:24:49.200
<v Speaker 2>winging about the other day because you know, the government

0:24:49.200 --> 0:24:52.119
<v Speaker 2>they wanted an extra billion dollars over two years. We

0:24:52.200 --> 0:24:55.480
<v Speaker 2>could take half a billion from that tomorrow and build

0:24:55.520 --> 0:24:59.280
<v Speaker 2>as many houses as we needed. You know, people don't understand.

0:24:59.440 --> 0:25:02.280
<v Speaker 2>And it's our explayers. So we don't need any more money.

0:25:02.280 --> 0:25:04.520
<v Speaker 2>We need to spend it differently. And the thing is

0:25:04.560 --> 0:25:09.520
<v Speaker 2>why I say jail isn't of value to the communities

0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:12.240
<v Speaker 2>because and I've spoken at events. You know, I spoke

0:25:12.240 --> 0:25:16.359
<v Speaker 2>at an event up in Maribra, North queenslanda while, you know,

0:25:16.480 --> 0:25:19.200
<v Speaker 2>probably eight years ago, and you know, there was the

0:25:19.240 --> 0:25:22.240
<v Speaker 2>parents of their daughter had been murdered by the husband

0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:26.440
<v Speaker 2>and domestic violence, and there was a sister. Her sister

0:25:26.480 --> 0:25:28.600
<v Speaker 2>had been murdered by the boyfriend, and she was a

0:25:28.640 --> 0:25:31.320
<v Speaker 2>prison guard at the prison where the boyfriend was now incarcerated,

0:25:32.080 --> 0:25:36.880
<v Speaker 2>you know. And I spoke up there at the time

0:25:36.920 --> 0:25:39.159
<v Speaker 2>with the manager of the Rainbow Lodge, who was one

0:25:39.200 --> 0:25:42.479
<v Speaker 2>of the few men trained in men's at a PhD

0:25:42.680 --> 0:25:47.400
<v Speaker 2>or a Masters in men's change behavior. And people think,

0:25:47.520 --> 0:25:51.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, like, if I do crime related to drugs

0:25:51.119 --> 0:25:52.639
<v Speaker 2>when I go to jail, they made me to do

0:25:52.720 --> 0:25:56.200
<v Speaker 2>drug courses. No, they didn't. Don't make you do anything

0:25:56.240 --> 0:26:00.200
<v Speaker 2>if if people and you know, at the bad writer

0:26:00.200 --> 0:26:02.400
<v Speaker 2>is seeing. When I was talking a couple of years ago,

0:26:02.880 --> 0:26:05.000
<v Speaker 2>a lady asked me this question either but the prison

0:26:05.160 --> 0:26:07.600
<v Speaker 2>populations increase because they're locking up all these people on

0:26:08.000 --> 0:26:10.720
<v Speaker 2>a vohs. And I said, I've been in prison with them,

0:26:10.800 --> 0:26:12.840
<v Speaker 2>and I said to you, you know what happens. They're

0:26:12.840 --> 0:26:15.080
<v Speaker 2>in there with all the other guys on AVOs, getting

0:26:15.080 --> 0:26:18.000
<v Speaker 2>more angry, more violent, and then they come out and

0:26:18.040 --> 0:26:21.920
<v Speaker 2>their next victim is oblivious to their history. So we're

0:26:21.960 --> 0:26:25.200
<v Speaker 2>actually making them worse because they're not they don't have

0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:29.880
<v Speaker 2>to do anything, Okay. So I think that my experience

0:26:29.880 --> 0:26:33.080
<v Speaker 2>when I've spoken to the community, they're shocked because they

0:26:33.680 --> 0:26:36.160
<v Speaker 2>just blindly believe that there was an expectation that if

0:26:36.200 --> 0:26:40.720
<v Speaker 2>you commit this crime, that when we incarcerate you, that

0:26:40.800 --> 0:26:45.080
<v Speaker 2>you're being offered or made to address or at least

0:26:45.080 --> 0:26:46.520
<v Speaker 2>look at. And that's not the reality.

0:26:46.760 --> 0:26:49.280
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So breaking down what you're saying, So I haven't

0:26:49.320 --> 0:26:52.640
<v Speaker 1>misunderstood that someone goes in for a crime of violence.

0:26:53.280 --> 0:26:56.200
<v Speaker 1>You assume if someone just repeatedly goes back in the

0:26:56.280 --> 0:27:00.000
<v Speaker 1>prison because of violent actions, that when they're in print

0:27:00.160 --> 0:27:03.760
<v Speaker 1>and maybe there'll be someone there trying to address that.

0:27:03.760 --> 0:27:04.960
<v Speaker 2>That makes sense, doesn't it?

0:27:05.000 --> 0:27:07.760
<v Speaker 1>Like if someone, let's break it down, domestic violence at

0:27:07.840 --> 0:27:12.160
<v Speaker 1>such a topical subject, domestic violent offenders go in there,

0:27:12.400 --> 0:27:16.640
<v Speaker 1>you'd like to think something's being corrected in what causes

0:27:16.680 --> 0:27:18.560
<v Speaker 1>them to do that, rather than they've just been put

0:27:18.600 --> 0:27:20.880
<v Speaker 1>away cranky and as you said, sit there and get

0:27:21.080 --> 0:27:23.960
<v Speaker 1>quite angry and then come out, Well I'm back out, Now,

0:27:24.040 --> 0:27:24.960
<v Speaker 1>what are you going.

0:27:24.920 --> 0:27:25.359
<v Speaker 2>To do to me?

0:27:26.280 --> 0:27:28.600
<v Speaker 1>Drug addicts, like, how many people are in there with

0:27:28.600 --> 0:27:31.880
<v Speaker 1>the drug addictions that commit crimes to support their drug

0:27:31.920 --> 0:27:35.640
<v Speaker 1>addictions commit crimes because of the stupidity is you're demonstrated

0:27:36.040 --> 0:27:40.119
<v Speaker 1>that your mind plays when you're addicted to drugs. Are

0:27:40.119 --> 0:27:42.600
<v Speaker 1>they being treated for their drug problem? Are they they

0:27:42.720 --> 0:27:44.680
<v Speaker 1>getting help? They go into the core of the problem

0:27:44.760 --> 0:27:47.480
<v Speaker 1>that's for them in the prison. Now, when we break

0:27:47.520 --> 0:27:50.680
<v Speaker 1>it down like that, I'm with you. I think most

0:27:50.720 --> 0:27:54.480
<v Speaker 1>people will assume, well, a system that's spending that much money,

0:27:54.640 --> 0:27:57.080
<v Speaker 1>what are we invest in that. What you're saying here

0:27:57.400 --> 0:28:00.440
<v Speaker 1>with your T shirt that says jail is failing? Yep,

0:28:01.960 --> 0:28:04.199
<v Speaker 1>what you're saying here is it's not working.

0:28:04.320 --> 0:28:06.560
<v Speaker 2>It's not. You just need to look at the numbers

0:28:07.000 --> 0:28:10.840
<v Speaker 2>and these are box are government numbers. You know, the

0:28:10.880 --> 0:28:13.480
<v Speaker 2>average prison sentence in New South Wales is eight months.

0:28:14.440 --> 0:28:18.720
<v Speaker 2>Eight months is the average sentence. So they're not ivan malats,

0:28:18.920 --> 0:28:22.560
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean and anyone at the moment,

0:28:22.600 --> 0:28:25.720
<v Speaker 2>there's about twelve and a half thousand people in prison

0:28:25.800 --> 0:28:30.080
<v Speaker 2>today in New South Wales. Yet nineteen thousand people will

0:28:30.080 --> 0:28:33.480
<v Speaker 2>cycle through every year. Ten thousand of those will go

0:28:33.520 --> 0:28:35.240
<v Speaker 2>to homelessness.

0:28:34.960 --> 0:28:40.080
<v Speaker 1>Right go from prison to homelessness. Will break those figures

0:28:40.080 --> 0:28:41.080
<v Speaker 1>down again, because.

0:28:40.800 --> 0:28:44.680
<v Speaker 2>That's true, there's twelve about twelve and a half thousand

0:28:44.680 --> 0:28:47.480
<v Speaker 2>people in prison in prison today in New South Wales.

0:28:47.960 --> 0:28:51.520
<v Speaker 2>This year about nineteen thousand people will cycle through those

0:28:51.520 --> 0:28:55.360
<v Speaker 2>twelve and nine thousand beds and then ten thousand of

0:28:55.400 --> 0:29:01.360
<v Speaker 2>that nineteen thousand will be released to homelessness. So I

0:29:01.400 --> 0:29:01.760
<v Speaker 2>don't know.

0:29:01.800 --> 0:29:05.440
<v Speaker 1>I'm not, you know, a social commentator, but you have

0:29:05.560 --> 0:29:09.000
<v Speaker 1>people in jail and release them to homelessness. I'm thinking

0:29:09.040 --> 0:29:11.800
<v Speaker 1>there's probably good reason why these people are recycling back

0:29:11.800 --> 0:29:13.160
<v Speaker 1>into prison.

0:29:13.520 --> 0:29:15.800
<v Speaker 2>And not only were really and I know this because

0:29:15.800 --> 0:29:19.200
<v Speaker 2>I've met with Minister Jackson, the minister, and had this

0:29:19.320 --> 0:29:23.040
<v Speaker 2>conversation and you know, with her, you know they're being

0:29:23.200 --> 0:29:27.000
<v Speaker 2>dumped by corrections on her the homeless you know, So

0:29:27.440 --> 0:29:31.240
<v Speaker 2>the ministry with two point one billion dollars is dumping

0:29:31.840 --> 0:29:33.800
<v Speaker 2>the inmates because once they come out of prison, not

0:29:33.840 --> 0:29:37.760
<v Speaker 2>my responsibility, onto the homelessness budget, which has seven hundred

0:29:37.760 --> 0:29:40.800
<v Speaker 2>and eighty million dollars, and she is burning through money

0:29:40.800 --> 0:29:43.320
<v Speaker 2>because they give them three nights tenory accommodation and these

0:29:43.360 --> 0:29:47.120
<v Speaker 2>shith hostels in the city but are just crack dans. Yeah,

0:29:47.160 --> 0:29:48.560
<v Speaker 2>and like it's insane.

0:29:49.680 --> 0:29:52.880
<v Speaker 1>I've always had concerns about that because if they walk

0:29:52.960 --> 0:29:55.120
<v Speaker 1>out the prison gate, we've all got the image of

0:29:55.160 --> 0:29:57.520
<v Speaker 1>the person, yeah see you back here next week, and

0:29:57.600 --> 0:30:01.480
<v Speaker 1>walk out the gates and to lift to their own devices.

0:30:01.560 --> 0:30:02.920
<v Speaker 1>It's not that far from the truth.

0:30:03.200 --> 0:30:05.560
<v Speaker 2>It's not, it's not. You know, we're filming a four

0:30:05.600 --> 0:30:10.280
<v Speaker 2>corners documentary about our service at the moment, you know,

0:30:10.400 --> 0:30:13.080
<v Speaker 2>and you know one of the men who's going to

0:30:13.080 --> 0:30:15.160
<v Speaker 2>be the pivotal of that. You know, they filmed him

0:30:15.160 --> 0:30:17.800
<v Speaker 2>as he lodge. This is the Rainbow Lodge. So they

0:30:17.800 --> 0:30:20.280
<v Speaker 2>filmed him coming out of Coomba Prison a few weeks ago,

0:30:20.920 --> 0:30:24.640
<v Speaker 2>and he's been through Rainbow before, and you know, they

0:30:24.760 --> 0:30:26.880
<v Speaker 2>stopped and had to McDonald and had to chat with him,

0:30:26.920 --> 0:30:30.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, and the journalists asked him the question, you know,

0:30:30.880 --> 0:30:33.800
<v Speaker 2>what would be the perfect on our own? He would

0:30:33.800 --> 0:30:37.800
<v Speaker 2>say that I never leave Rainbow Lodge. Yeah, okay, you know,

0:30:37.840 --> 0:30:40.480
<v Speaker 2>because that's the other thing. So he came through us

0:30:40.480 --> 0:30:46.480
<v Speaker 2>previously and we housed him in a support in a

0:30:46.480 --> 0:30:49.560
<v Speaker 2>semi independence. He got a unit, but it was miles away.

0:30:49.600 --> 0:30:51.720
<v Speaker 2>It was down near La Peru's miles from US, no

0:30:51.840 --> 0:30:54.840
<v Speaker 2>public transport. He got so isolated, you know, it was

0:30:54.880 --> 0:30:56.960
<v Speaker 2>so sad. When we went back into the house, he

0:30:56.960 --> 0:30:59.360
<v Speaker 2>hadn't even said his furniture up and he just used

0:30:59.400 --> 0:31:00.600
<v Speaker 2>drugs and gone to prison.

0:31:01.240 --> 0:31:04.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah that is at set, I don't you know. We

0:31:05.360 --> 0:31:07.400
<v Speaker 1>can all be tough guys and go, well, we go

0:31:07.480 --> 0:31:09.760
<v Speaker 1>back where he deserves it. It's just said, if you

0:31:09.800 --> 0:31:11.520
<v Speaker 1>isolate people, and if.

0:31:11.440 --> 0:31:14.920
<v Speaker 2>You met this guy, he's like someone's grandfather. Yeah, you know,

0:31:15.480 --> 0:31:18.400
<v Speaker 2>like you know, yes, you know he breaks into people's houses,

0:31:18.400 --> 0:31:21.800
<v Speaker 2>but you know, he generally tries not to hurt anyone.

0:31:21.880 --> 0:31:26.920
<v Speaker 2>And you know, he he takes drugs because he's in pain.

0:31:26.920 --> 0:31:28.840
<v Speaker 2>Because I think one of the things that people need

0:31:28.880 --> 0:31:31.080
<v Speaker 2>to understand about the people that end up in prison,

0:31:31.960 --> 0:31:35.360
<v Speaker 2>and this is why society and the community needs to

0:31:35.360 --> 0:31:40.400
<v Speaker 2>take responsibility for my experience is that ninety eight percent

0:31:40.440 --> 0:31:43.120
<v Speaker 2>of the guys that come through my service have been

0:31:43.160 --> 0:31:48.160
<v Speaker 2>removed from their as children put into a government service,

0:31:48.280 --> 0:31:51.040
<v Speaker 2>whether they then being sexually abused, and you know we're

0:31:51.040 --> 0:31:54.120
<v Speaker 2>talking rape, they've been raped as children. You know, I

0:31:54.160 --> 0:31:57.200
<v Speaker 2>have one guy, an Aboriginal guy who told them most

0:31:57.280 --> 0:32:02.600
<v Speaker 2>horrific story, gets taken off his mum, sent to you know,

0:32:03.000 --> 0:32:06.320
<v Speaker 2>an orphanage that's run by a church. The priest starts

0:32:06.400 --> 0:32:10.120
<v Speaker 2>raping him. His younger brother, who's a couple of years younger, comes,

0:32:10.600 --> 0:32:14.400
<v Speaker 2>So this kid, he's eight years older, he gets an agreement,

0:32:14.480 --> 0:32:16.760
<v Speaker 2>he negotiates with the priest that you can rape me

0:32:16.840 --> 0:32:18.920
<v Speaker 2>and I won't tell anyone as long as you don't

0:32:19.000 --> 0:32:22.240
<v Speaker 2>rape my brother. It breaks your heart, doesn't he I'm

0:32:22.240 --> 0:32:25.520
<v Speaker 2>nearly crying talking about it. He then, you know, the

0:32:25.600 --> 0:32:27.760
<v Speaker 2>trauma that is so much that he starts acting out,

0:32:27.800 --> 0:32:30.479
<v Speaker 2>So they send him off to Minda, and the priest

0:32:30.800 --> 0:32:34.600
<v Speaker 2>starts raping the brother until he grows up starts acting out,

0:32:34.680 --> 0:32:36.360
<v Speaker 2>and then they send him off to Minda. Then they

0:32:36.400 --> 0:32:38.480
<v Speaker 2>both end up in jaw and the brother kills himself.

0:32:38.640 --> 0:32:40.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, so what this is?

0:32:41.400 --> 0:32:44.840
<v Speaker 1>Well, see stories like that, I think everyone just takes

0:32:44.840 --> 0:32:47.160
<v Speaker 1>a black and white attitude on things. When you hear

0:32:47.200 --> 0:32:51.240
<v Speaker 1>stories like that, You've got to have some humanity for

0:32:51.280 --> 0:32:52.040
<v Speaker 1>what's happening here.

0:32:52.080 --> 0:32:55.560
<v Speaker 2>You do, And like all I hear the same story.

0:32:55.840 --> 0:32:58.480
<v Speaker 2>And why I say that is because what we did

0:32:58.520 --> 0:33:01.560
<v Speaker 2>as a community is we let these children down and

0:33:01.880 --> 0:33:05.120
<v Speaker 2>to not take responsibility for we then criminalize their trauma

0:33:05.160 --> 0:33:08.160
<v Speaker 2>response behavior and send them to boys homes. And you

0:33:08.240 --> 0:33:10.920
<v Speaker 2>know that you dealt with the killers that it went

0:33:10.960 --> 0:33:13.680
<v Speaker 2>through all the boys hearts. They are a breathing ground. Yeah.

0:33:14.080 --> 0:33:18.320
<v Speaker 1>And I've also with the recent times of what we've

0:33:18.360 --> 0:33:20.760
<v Speaker 1>done here in time that I've spent in prison doing

0:33:20.800 --> 0:33:24.720
<v Speaker 1>that podcast series, got an appreciation of the amount of

0:33:24.800 --> 0:33:28.720
<v Speaker 1>people that A person that's a good friend of the podcast,

0:33:28.800 --> 0:33:33.480
<v Speaker 1>Russell Manster who sadly passed away. He made the point

0:33:33.560 --> 0:33:35.840
<v Speaker 1>that the amount of you want to reduce crime, look

0:33:35.880 --> 0:33:39.360
<v Speaker 1>at the trauma, these trauma, these people have suffered, been

0:33:39.680 --> 0:33:42.680
<v Speaker 1>victims of child sexual abuse, and how that plays out

0:33:42.960 --> 0:33:43.640
<v Speaker 1>in the future.

0:33:44.840 --> 0:33:47.600
<v Speaker 2>All of them, you know, all of them that come

0:33:47.640 --> 0:33:50.480
<v Speaker 2>across across my desk. You know, I think I think

0:33:50.520 --> 0:33:52.840
<v Speaker 2>I said it at at Parliament House. You know, seventy

0:33:52.880 --> 0:33:55.360
<v Speaker 2>eight point I think seventy eight point one percent of

0:33:55.400 --> 0:33:58.000
<v Speaker 2>the men that come through us had engagement in the

0:33:58.080 --> 0:34:01.120
<v Speaker 2>juvenile justice system. And I was saying that because they

0:34:01.160 --> 0:34:05.800
<v Speaker 2>just changed the bail laws and because there's two things

0:34:05.840 --> 0:34:06.880
<v Speaker 2>that the governments do.

0:34:06.800 --> 0:34:08.600
<v Speaker 1>You talk about the baile laws, because there's a lot

0:34:08.600 --> 0:34:09.600
<v Speaker 1>of anger in Parliament.

0:34:09.920 --> 0:34:13.640
<v Speaker 2>Well it's ridiculous because disproportionately going to affect First nations

0:34:13.640 --> 0:34:15.719
<v Speaker 2>people and at the moment, you know, my service we're

0:34:15.719 --> 0:34:17.960
<v Speaker 2>not a first nation's only service, but ninety eight percent

0:34:17.960 --> 0:34:20.600
<v Speaker 2>of the people in my service are First nation because

0:34:20.600 --> 0:34:22.239
<v Speaker 2>we've got a lot of funding to work with them.

0:34:22.600 --> 0:34:25.080
<v Speaker 2>You know, they make up thirty percent of the prison

0:34:25.120 --> 0:34:27.480
<v Speaker 2>population in New South Wales, but three percent of the

0:34:27.520 --> 0:34:32.040
<v Speaker 2>general population think of those figures like yeah, and it's disproportionate.

0:34:32.200 --> 0:34:35.640
<v Speaker 2>Even scarier, we incarcerate them at the highest So First

0:34:35.719 --> 0:34:38.960
<v Speaker 2>Nations people in New South Wales are incarcerated per hundred

0:34:38.960 --> 0:34:41.800
<v Speaker 2>thousand at the greatest rate in the world, four times

0:34:42.040 --> 0:34:45.439
<v Speaker 2>what African Americans are incarcerated, the second most incarcerated people

0:34:45.480 --> 0:34:47.399
<v Speaker 2>in the world. It's nothing to be proud of. Well,

0:34:47.960 --> 0:34:50.359
<v Speaker 2>not only we should be as I said in part,

0:34:50.400 --> 0:34:52.800
<v Speaker 2>we should be disgusted, like we've got a labor government

0:34:52.880 --> 0:34:55.560
<v Speaker 2>federally and a labor government state. They were telling us that,

0:34:55.680 --> 0:34:58.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, let's vote for a voice. Then they're bringing

0:34:58.680 --> 0:35:02.400
<v Speaker 2>in laws they're going to dispropose affect First Nations.

0:35:02.440 --> 0:35:05.200
<v Speaker 1>How do you see the bar laws doing that having

0:35:05.200 --> 0:35:05.680
<v Speaker 1>that effect.

0:35:06.040 --> 0:35:09.279
<v Speaker 2>I was having this debate with my friend last night

0:35:10.040 --> 0:35:13.239
<v Speaker 2>as an ex policeman. You may have it differently. The

0:35:13.239 --> 0:35:16.360
<v Speaker 2>insanity and it's like the decisions I made. The insanity

0:35:16.360 --> 0:35:19.200
<v Speaker 2>of government is you don't ask the police how to

0:35:19.239 --> 0:35:23.920
<v Speaker 2>stop crime. The police solve crime, that's their job, and

0:35:23.960 --> 0:35:26.359
<v Speaker 2>you don't ask corrections how to stop people coming to jail.

0:35:26.400 --> 0:35:28.440
<v Speaker 2>It's not their job. Their job is to keep people

0:35:28.480 --> 0:35:31.480
<v Speaker 2>in jail, and New South Wales do that really well,

0:35:31.640 --> 0:35:34.840
<v Speaker 2>like I said it, because you know Parliament, the Deputy

0:35:34.920 --> 0:35:37.799
<v Speaker 2>Commissioner was there and I'm not one of these you know,

0:35:38.000 --> 0:35:40.960
<v Speaker 2>fucking clothes. All the prisons defund the police. It's ridiculous.

0:35:41.760 --> 0:35:44.680
<v Speaker 2>You know, I've worked with the police really closely in

0:35:44.719 --> 0:35:47.200
<v Speaker 2>some of my jobs. And you know, as I said

0:35:47.239 --> 0:35:50.800
<v Speaker 2>to that, and I looked at the Deputy Commissioner, I said,

0:35:51.239 --> 0:35:54.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, we're in prison and a guy, so you're

0:35:54.280 --> 0:35:55.920
<v Speaker 2>having to go and deal with mental health because we

0:35:55.960 --> 0:35:58.399
<v Speaker 2>don't have a social worker at the hospital and you're

0:35:58.440 --> 0:36:01.799
<v Speaker 2>not trained for it. And put all this unreal expectation

0:36:01.920 --> 0:36:05.560
<v Speaker 2>on our police officers and and on our prison guards.

0:36:05.760 --> 0:36:08.480
<v Speaker 2>That's not their job. And we do the same with

0:36:08.560 --> 0:36:13.000
<v Speaker 2>our school teachers, you know. And my thing is we

0:36:13.160 --> 0:36:15.720
<v Speaker 2>do that because we waste all this money in prison

0:36:15.760 --> 0:36:17.919
<v Speaker 2>in people. Because I think about it, if you take

0:36:17.960 --> 0:36:21.239
<v Speaker 2>it right back, because I believe there should be a

0:36:21.280 --> 0:36:23.880
<v Speaker 2>five year moratorium in New South Wales'm building any new

0:36:23.880 --> 0:36:26.680
<v Speaker 2>prisons if we are seriously serious about doing it different.

0:36:26.960 --> 0:36:29.120
<v Speaker 2>We don't need any more prisons. Get rid of all

0:36:29.120 --> 0:36:31.800
<v Speaker 2>the private prisons. That's the other thing people don't realize

0:36:32.160 --> 0:36:35.319
<v Speaker 2>Australia incarcerates more people. So twenty five percent of our

0:36:35.360 --> 0:36:39.040
<v Speaker 2>prison population are incarcerating private prisons, highest in the world.

0:36:39.040 --> 0:36:40.920
<v Speaker 2>The US is second in seventeen percent.

0:36:41.320 --> 0:36:47.120
<v Speaker 1>I don't know anyone that speaks favorably of the principle

0:36:47.120 --> 0:36:51.279
<v Speaker 1>of privatizing prisons, running a prison for a profit. The

0:36:51.320 --> 0:36:53.600
<v Speaker 1>people that are in the prisons, I've never heard a

0:36:53.640 --> 0:36:55.680
<v Speaker 1>good thing said about private highest prisons.

0:36:55.880 --> 0:36:58.719
<v Speaker 2>Look, I think they just jumped on the wagon the

0:36:58.760 --> 0:37:01.319
<v Speaker 2>same as the right wing wagon, you know, when they

0:37:01.320 --> 0:37:03.600
<v Speaker 2>sold telecom and all those things, and said that the

0:37:03.960 --> 0:37:09.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, government bureaucuracy, you know, is it costs us money,

0:37:09.360 --> 0:37:11.759
<v Speaker 2>it's not efficient. And I think they just jumped on

0:37:11.800 --> 0:37:15.200
<v Speaker 2>the back of that and said that we can run

0:37:15.280 --> 0:37:19.640
<v Speaker 2>prisons more efficiently. But what we call them correction center,

0:37:19.719 --> 0:37:23.359
<v Speaker 2>so that the idea is we're correcting them. But who

0:37:23.480 --> 0:37:26.080
<v Speaker 2>runs a business for profit that puts yourself out of business?

0:37:26.320 --> 0:37:30.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well if her correction is private, you know, and

0:37:30.239 --> 0:37:32.280
<v Speaker 1>do their job, well, they won't have a business.

0:37:32.360 --> 0:37:35.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Like So it's so insane. And what we've seen

0:37:35.840 --> 0:37:38.600
<v Speaker 2>in New South Wales and around the country when we're

0:37:38.640 --> 0:37:42.520
<v Speaker 2>with the more private prisons, all the bail laws have

0:37:42.600 --> 0:37:42.960
<v Speaker 2>come so.

0:37:42.960 --> 0:37:44.880
<v Speaker 1>In new can I just bring you back on that

0:37:44.960 --> 0:37:47.600
<v Speaker 1>point to the bar laws? So the new bar laws.

0:37:48.000 --> 0:37:50.359
<v Speaker 1>When we were at Parliament was there was a lot

0:37:50.400 --> 0:37:53.840
<v Speaker 1>of huffing and puffing going on about specifically, why do

0:37:53.880 --> 0:37:56.919
<v Speaker 1>you think that's not going to be a good thing.

0:37:57.160 --> 0:38:00.000
<v Speaker 1>You said that police shouldn't be saying how to stop.

0:37:59.800 --> 0:38:04.799
<v Speaker 2>C Well, you know, the police have two things, more

0:38:04.840 --> 0:38:08.640
<v Speaker 2>reasons to arrest people and harsher bail. Like they're the

0:38:08.640 --> 0:38:11.720
<v Speaker 2>two tools you have as a really as a police officer,

0:38:12.120 --> 0:38:15.360
<v Speaker 2>more reasons to stop and arrest someone and more reasons

0:38:15.400 --> 0:38:17.240
<v Speaker 2>to not let them out on bail.

0:38:17.360 --> 0:38:21.520
<v Speaker 1>So if I'm silver cop, there's claud You're you're annoying me,

0:38:21.600 --> 0:38:24.560
<v Speaker 1>you're out, you're doing something, You've broken the window or whatever,

0:38:24.600 --> 0:38:27.080
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to arrest you. We're going to refuse. Refuse

0:38:27.120 --> 0:38:31.120
<v Speaker 1>Barlin an extreme and unlikely extreme. But you're you're saying

0:38:31.160 --> 0:38:33.960
<v Speaker 1>that something that, well, it makes it easier for us

0:38:33.960 --> 0:38:37.239
<v Speaker 1>police if people are in jail, because then we don't

0:38:37.239 --> 0:38:40.960
<v Speaker 1>have to look for them. So I acknowledge what you're saying,

0:38:41.000 --> 0:38:43.440
<v Speaker 1>like police shouldn't be involved in that it is easier.

0:38:43.719 --> 0:38:45.600
<v Speaker 2>But I have real life experience of this so my

0:38:45.760 --> 0:38:48.320
<v Speaker 2>previous job, I managed to use service over the Northern

0:38:48.360 --> 0:38:52.320
<v Speaker 2>Beaches and I met with the I think he was

0:38:52.600 --> 0:38:55.400
<v Speaker 2>the coman crime commander. Yeah, for the Northern Beach. I

0:38:55.520 --> 0:39:01.600
<v Speaker 2>love amazing guy. I think, you know, solution focused whatever

0:39:01.719 --> 0:39:09.000
<v Speaker 2>it takes, and community solutions, not like so I've had

0:39:09.080 --> 0:39:12.840
<v Speaker 2>lots of good ones. So there was at this stage

0:39:12.840 --> 0:39:14.920
<v Speaker 2>and people did know people when it's the Northern Beaches,

0:39:15.239 --> 0:39:21.200
<v Speaker 2>but the highest uptake of people in juvenile detention or

0:39:21.239 --> 0:39:23.240
<v Speaker 2>prison in New South Wales or from the Northern Beaches,

0:39:24.160 --> 0:39:27.480
<v Speaker 2>you know. So and there was lots of these kids,

0:39:27.520 --> 0:39:28.960
<v Speaker 2>you know. So I met with him and said, you know,

0:39:29.160 --> 0:39:30.800
<v Speaker 2>this is a problem. What can we do? And he

0:39:30.840 --> 0:39:34.239
<v Speaker 2>said to me, you know, on any Saturday night on

0:39:34.280 --> 0:39:38.480
<v Speaker 2>the Northern Beaches at anyone time, I got five cars babysitting.

0:39:38.520 --> 0:39:40.360
<v Speaker 2>Because people don't realize, he said it as soon as

0:39:40.440 --> 0:39:43.440
<v Speaker 2>I become have an interaction with a child under sixteen,

0:39:43.840 --> 0:39:47.080
<v Speaker 2>I become speaking of and I can't let them go

0:39:47.200 --> 0:39:50.320
<v Speaker 2>until I hand them over to a responsible person. So

0:39:50.440 --> 0:39:51.960
<v Speaker 2>he said, you know, I've got eight cars on the

0:39:52.000 --> 0:39:55.200
<v Speaker 2>beaches and five of them you know, so real crimes,

0:39:55.600 --> 0:39:57.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, the things that we want police to come

0:39:58.040 --> 0:40:00.759
<v Speaker 2>to they can't get to them because of these kids.

0:40:00.840 --> 0:40:02.719
<v Speaker 2>So you know, we came up with this scene called

0:40:02.760 --> 0:40:06.200
<v Speaker 2>Beach Reach where we went out with we had a

0:40:06.280 --> 0:40:08.520
<v Speaker 2>car with youth workers and they would call us up

0:40:09.120 --> 0:40:12.120
<v Speaker 2>and go, we've got these kids. Would ring mum, you know,

0:40:12.200 --> 0:40:14.520
<v Speaker 2>because the other thing we found was, you know, they

0:40:14.560 --> 0:40:16.239
<v Speaker 2>said to us, he ring mum and dad and on

0:40:16.360 --> 0:40:18.960
<v Speaker 2>the northern beaches they're smashed so they can't come and

0:40:19.000 --> 0:40:22.200
<v Speaker 2>pick up little Johnny, you know. So they were able

0:40:22.280 --> 0:40:24.759
<v Speaker 2>to the police, could you know, ring the parents and go, hey,

0:40:24.840 --> 0:40:30.359
<v Speaker 2>tell them money's here the youth workers and I tell

0:40:30.360 --> 0:40:32.600
<v Speaker 2>you and this is why I say that police don't

0:40:32.640 --> 0:40:35.480
<v Speaker 2>solve crime. Because he was I can't think of his

0:40:35.600 --> 0:40:37.840
<v Speaker 2>name out a Greek name, but he said to me,

0:40:37.920 --> 0:40:41.200
<v Speaker 2>he said, I know the moment I put a child

0:40:41.280 --> 0:40:43.320
<v Speaker 2>in a car, even to take them home to their parents,

0:40:43.400 --> 0:40:46.200
<v Speaker 2>I changed their relationship to the police instantly forever.

0:40:47.320 --> 0:40:50.600
<v Speaker 3>And I just went, wow, okay, well he's thinking, you

0:40:50.680 --> 0:40:51.120
<v Speaker 3>know what I mean.

0:40:51.480 --> 0:40:54.480
<v Speaker 2>So he said, if I can have you guys who

0:40:54.800 --> 0:40:56.600
<v Speaker 2>not only take them home so I don't have to

0:40:56.640 --> 0:41:00.960
<v Speaker 2>put them in a police car, you know, then we

0:41:01.080 --> 0:41:03.440
<v Speaker 2>have a therapeutic conversation. We can go, oh, what's going

0:41:03.480 --> 0:41:05.759
<v Speaker 2>on because while you're out, something's going on at Hount,

0:41:05.920 --> 0:41:07.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, and give them a card. And from that

0:41:08.200 --> 0:41:11.040
<v Speaker 2>guru that we went into chrome a high school, you know,

0:41:11.400 --> 0:41:13.759
<v Speaker 2>and we would say, look, where do you go high school?

0:41:13.840 --> 0:41:16.399
<v Speaker 2>We're here on a Tuesday. You just tell the teacher

0:41:16.400 --> 0:41:17.800
<v Speaker 2>and we'll call you out in class no one or

0:41:17.840 --> 0:41:22.160
<v Speaker 2>no you know. So there is solutions. And because he

0:41:22.320 --> 0:41:25.759
<v Speaker 2>knew that if we stop these kids now, we're working

0:41:25.840 --> 0:41:27.640
<v Speaker 2>with these kids now, he's not dealing with them in

0:41:27.719 --> 0:41:31.280
<v Speaker 2>five years when they're committing much more serious crimes.

0:41:31.320 --> 0:41:34.600
<v Speaker 1>Well, all the things that you're raising sort of I'll say,

0:41:34.680 --> 0:41:36.840
<v Speaker 1>thinking out of the square to a degree. It's not

0:41:37.000 --> 0:41:40.359
<v Speaker 1>that just okay, this happens, and just pushing against each

0:41:40.440 --> 0:41:42.720
<v Speaker 1>other the whole time. It's thinking, if it's not working,

0:41:42.880 --> 0:41:45.160
<v Speaker 1>why aren't we changing it back to.

0:41:45.160 --> 0:41:46.600
<v Speaker 2>Your T shirt? Jailing's failing.

0:41:46.800 --> 0:41:50.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, if the idea of putting people into jail correctional center,

0:41:50.840 --> 0:41:53.560
<v Speaker 1>as you say, it's a correctional center, so your behavior

0:41:53.680 --> 0:41:55.359
<v Speaker 1>is going to be corrected and then when you come

0:41:55.440 --> 0:41:58.440
<v Speaker 1>out into society, you're going to integrate.

0:41:58.080 --> 0:41:59.400
<v Speaker 2>Back into society better.

0:42:00.760 --> 0:42:03.880
<v Speaker 1>All the bad things about the prison system that I

0:42:04.040 --> 0:42:06.799
<v Speaker 1>hear from you, and when I talk to Mindy, that's

0:42:06.880 --> 0:42:09.759
<v Speaker 1>not what it's doing. And the high rate of recidivism,

0:42:10.840 --> 0:42:13.480
<v Speaker 1>it's ridiculous across the country.

0:42:13.880 --> 0:42:16.439
<v Speaker 2>Within two years, most people back in prison. And they're

0:42:16.480 --> 0:42:18.680
<v Speaker 2>not all bad. You know. We've just been funded by

0:42:18.719 --> 0:42:23.520
<v Speaker 2>the Paul Ramsey Foundation to take how Wallamus First Nation's

0:42:23.560 --> 0:42:27.520
<v Speaker 2>programs into John Maroney Prison. And you know, Jason Hodges

0:42:27.640 --> 0:42:30.080
<v Speaker 2>is the governor out there, and he thinks outside the box.

0:42:30.719 --> 0:42:34.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, he's got all these guys on remand you know,

0:42:35.239 --> 0:42:40.960
<v Speaker 2>and he's got ramand d V romand addictions, Romanda aggressions,

0:42:41.000 --> 0:42:42.399
<v Speaker 2>you know. And I was at a meeting with him

0:42:44.239 --> 0:42:46.000
<v Speaker 2>a little while about a couple of months ago, when

0:42:46.040 --> 0:42:48.719
<v Speaker 2>we're finalizing what we were going to do, and he said,

0:42:48.760 --> 0:42:51.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, we've had the first person on remand go

0:42:51.680 --> 0:42:54.320
<v Speaker 2>back before the judge. And because we'd offered them a

0:42:54.400 --> 0:42:57.040
<v Speaker 2>different solution and programs, the judge didn't have to send

0:42:57.080 --> 0:42:59.600
<v Speaker 2>into prison. He could sentence a person to.

0:42:59.719 --> 0:43:03.439
<v Speaker 1>Re yet, because when they're on romand they traditionally don't

0:43:03.480 --> 0:43:06.120
<v Speaker 1>get access, they don't get access to anything. That's something

0:43:06.200 --> 0:43:09.080
<v Speaker 1>that I hadn't even thought about, but one ex prisoner

0:43:09.200 --> 0:43:12.000
<v Speaker 1>raised it or some discussion on having I think it

0:43:12.080 --> 0:43:15.200
<v Speaker 1>was here that when you're on remand, and you can

0:43:15.239 --> 0:43:17.120
<v Speaker 1>be on remand for a very long time, you know,

0:43:17.200 --> 0:43:20.120
<v Speaker 1>the court system is not in the rush. You could

0:43:20.160 --> 0:43:22.080
<v Speaker 1>be there for years and you don't have access to

0:43:22.120 --> 0:43:22.719
<v Speaker 1>all these things.

0:43:22.880 --> 0:43:25.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know the scary thing is, you know today

0:43:25.840 --> 0:43:28.080
<v Speaker 2>this twelve and a half thousand people in prison. Today,

0:43:28.560 --> 0:43:31.719
<v Speaker 2>five thousand of them are on romand forty percent of

0:43:31.760 --> 0:43:34.920
<v Speaker 2>the population in prison. I didn't realize there's no presumption

0:43:35.000 --> 0:43:38.840
<v Speaker 2>of innocence. That's a fallacy because when we brought in

0:43:38.920 --> 0:43:42.480
<v Speaker 2>the private prisons, we had to change the bail laws

0:43:42.520 --> 0:43:45.520
<v Speaker 2>because we needed to keep them in business. And that's

0:43:45.520 --> 0:43:49.040
<v Speaker 2>what's happened. And we as a society we have figures.

0:43:49.080 --> 0:43:51.040
<v Speaker 2>Pass me again, you keep hitting me for these figures

0:43:51.120 --> 0:43:54.319
<v Speaker 2>on process. Today there is about twelve five hundred people

0:43:54.360 --> 0:43:57.000
<v Speaker 2>in prison and about five thousand of days are on RAN.

0:43:57.040 --> 0:43:59.080
<v Speaker 2>I think it's thirty nine point three percent of the

0:43:59.160 --> 0:44:01.240
<v Speaker 2>people in prison in your South Wales the wrong remarks

0:44:01.239 --> 0:44:02.600
<v Speaker 2>and not found guilty of which.

0:44:02.760 --> 0:44:05.400
<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't have thought that naively. I wouldn't have thought that.

0:44:05.480 --> 0:44:07.520
<v Speaker 1>Then I've been even brought it written down right, you've

0:44:07.560 --> 0:44:09.000
<v Speaker 1>got the notes. Okay, well it's proof.

0:44:09.600 --> 0:44:12.840
<v Speaker 2>No, no, this is available data to the governments everyone.

0:44:13.520 --> 0:44:16.040
<v Speaker 1>I'm not making that except what you're saying, but I'm

0:44:16.080 --> 0:44:18.800
<v Speaker 1>saying from a CoP's point of view, career cop. I

0:44:19.000 --> 0:44:21.520
<v Speaker 1>never thought about it, like I thought it would have

0:44:21.600 --> 0:44:23.759
<v Speaker 1>been a much smaller percentage onen.

0:44:23.719 --> 0:44:26.200
<v Speaker 2>Remark when I and it's changed now because you've got

0:44:26.239 --> 0:44:28.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, John Maroney and people like justin hostage. So

0:44:29.239 --> 0:44:31.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, as I said, with the police, you know,

0:44:31.719 --> 0:44:34.400
<v Speaker 2>corrections is the same. There's some good people trying to

0:44:34.480 --> 0:44:37.759
<v Speaker 2>do things different and you know to allow us, you know,

0:44:38.120 --> 0:44:40.799
<v Speaker 2>and that's taken the Deputy Commissioner lose Grant's approval too.

0:44:40.880 --> 0:44:41.680
<v Speaker 2>So there is people.

0:44:41.960 --> 0:44:45.840
<v Speaker 1>Look, I was I did that breaking badness in mcquarie

0:44:45.880 --> 0:44:48.680
<v Speaker 1>Correctional Center. I was blown away by what I saw there,

0:44:49.200 --> 0:44:52.120
<v Speaker 1>Like good people in corrective services trying to make a difference.

0:44:52.360 --> 0:44:55.120
<v Speaker 2>No, there is, but you know you're talking about your

0:44:55.520 --> 0:44:56.840
<v Speaker 2>yeah energy.

0:44:57.040 --> 0:44:59.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's a culture that you're trying to change, and.

0:44:59.760 --> 0:45:02.800
<v Speaker 2>It's really difficult. You know, you can highly unionize and

0:45:02.880 --> 0:45:05.759
<v Speaker 2>it's an old school thing, but there is, you know,

0:45:06.120 --> 0:45:10.080
<v Speaker 2>and where Rainbow with our Aboriginal partners, you know, Gammarata

0:45:10.680 --> 0:45:13.400
<v Speaker 2>in digital Resources in wimpitture to be able to the

0:45:13.560 --> 0:45:16.000
<v Speaker 2>chance to go out there and run this, and you know,

0:45:16.040 --> 0:45:19.319
<v Speaker 2>I had an amazing experience. I took Ivan Clark, who

0:45:19.400 --> 0:45:23.200
<v Speaker 2>runs our Healing the Warrior program from Wimpitcher. We took

0:45:23.239 --> 0:45:25.000
<v Speaker 2>out some guys who are going to run out there,

0:45:25.840 --> 0:45:29.319
<v Speaker 2>all ex criminals, all Aboriginal, and you know, we went

0:45:29.360 --> 0:45:31.239
<v Speaker 2>out to the jail and we came in and like,

0:45:33.360 --> 0:45:35.400
<v Speaker 2>because you have ideas, Like I have an idea, and

0:45:35.560 --> 0:45:38.800
<v Speaker 2>I thought, this is the environment I've met Jason that

0:45:38.880 --> 0:45:41.239
<v Speaker 2>we're running some programs. You know, a lot of the

0:45:41.320 --> 0:45:43.520
<v Speaker 2>Wellemer guys out there. I knew that thirty percent of

0:45:43.560 --> 0:45:47.279
<v Speaker 2>the people in John Moroni or Aboriginal, you know. I

0:45:47.360 --> 0:45:50.200
<v Speaker 2>thought this is the place, you know, and I thought

0:45:50.320 --> 0:45:53.920
<v Speaker 2>if we it was actually the DPP through the wallhemer

0:45:53.960 --> 0:45:56.239
<v Speaker 2>program was the one who said to me because he

0:45:56.360 --> 0:45:58.840
<v Speaker 2>met Ivan and the programs and started to see the impact,

0:45:58.880 --> 0:46:00.759
<v Speaker 2>and he said, oh, this would be great. Jail like

0:46:00.840 --> 0:46:03.319
<v Speaker 2>the guy, they should be doing this before they even

0:46:03.360 --> 0:46:07.719
<v Speaker 2>come for bail. You know how they didn't get make sense. Yeah,

0:46:07.840 --> 0:46:09.960
<v Speaker 2>so you know, but I had this idea, but you

0:46:10.000 --> 0:46:12.000
<v Speaker 2>don't know what's going to work. And then I took

0:46:12.040 --> 0:46:14.160
<v Speaker 2>them out there to tour the jail and to be

0:46:14.239 --> 0:46:18.719
<v Speaker 2>shown around and make the impact. Like the guys, you know,

0:46:18.880 --> 0:46:21.600
<v Speaker 2>the conversations they had because three hours we toured the

0:46:21.680 --> 0:46:25.000
<v Speaker 2>jail for you know, three hours, and I remember I

0:46:25.000 --> 0:46:26.560
<v Speaker 2>Evan said to me, you know, three hours and we

0:46:26.640 --> 0:46:29.800
<v Speaker 2>sat down with Jason Hodges, the governor out there for

0:46:29.880 --> 0:46:31.560
<v Speaker 2>half an hour, and you know, we had to go

0:46:31.680 --> 0:46:33.799
<v Speaker 2>and have lunch because the guys were so like I had.

0:46:34.040 --> 0:46:36.960
<v Speaker 2>You know, one guy, Paul Bird, who spent twenty years,

0:46:37.000 --> 0:46:39.440
<v Speaker 2>twenty five years, and Jay was in tears and you know,

0:46:40.239 --> 0:46:42.400
<v Speaker 2>and you can't bull as you said, you can't bullshit

0:46:42.480 --> 0:46:45.040
<v Speaker 2>these guys. These guys are tough guys. But you know,

0:46:45.160 --> 0:46:47.840
<v Speaker 2>Paul Bird's been like me nearly seventeen years. You know,

0:46:47.920 --> 0:46:50.759
<v Speaker 2>all these guys. You know Ivan his story, you know

0:46:50.880 --> 0:46:55.320
<v Speaker 2>he was taken from his mother, institutionalized raped, you know.

0:46:55.680 --> 0:46:58.520
<v Speaker 2>Now he's one of the foremost speakers on Aboriginal men's

0:46:58.640 --> 0:47:01.960
<v Speaker 2>change programs and his thing is and this goes back

0:47:02.000 --> 0:47:04.960
<v Speaker 2>to why I say, especially with the prevalence of the

0:47:05.080 --> 0:47:10.240
<v Speaker 2>conversations around domestic violence, women can't fix men and where's

0:47:10.239 --> 0:47:12.839
<v Speaker 2>a community you need to accept that. And it's very

0:47:12.920 --> 0:47:14.319
<v Speaker 2>difficult and doing it like it's.

0:47:15.040 --> 0:47:17.359
<v Speaker 1>And people will shout you down for that, going, oh, well,

0:47:17.480 --> 0:47:19.960
<v Speaker 1>maybe women should be the ones fixing men. But I

0:47:20.640 --> 0:47:21.680
<v Speaker 1>understand what you're saying.

0:47:21.760 --> 0:47:25.200
<v Speaker 2>Do we want justice or do we want revenge? That's

0:47:25.280 --> 0:47:28.640
<v Speaker 2>the question I asked. Obviously justice is, of course, because

0:47:28.640 --> 0:47:30.560
<v Speaker 2>if we want revenge, we end up with two lots

0:47:30.600 --> 0:47:34.320
<v Speaker 2>of trauma. And as we've talked about those people, you know,

0:47:35.280 --> 0:47:37.759
<v Speaker 2>very few I don't know, it'd be less than half

0:47:37.800 --> 0:47:41.279
<v Speaker 2>a percent of people in prison in Australia don't get released.

0:47:41.480 --> 0:47:44.279
<v Speaker 1>So we you know, they're all coming out, and that's

0:47:44.440 --> 0:47:47.120
<v Speaker 1>that's that's the point that I know when I was

0:47:47.200 --> 0:47:50.200
<v Speaker 1>talking about what they were doing in Macquarie and I

0:47:50.520 --> 0:47:52.440
<v Speaker 1>was I was sort of thinking, Okay, people are going

0:47:52.520 --> 0:47:54.719
<v Speaker 1>to push back on a pushback on this, so we're

0:47:54.760 --> 0:47:56.879
<v Speaker 1>getting soft. They're in jail for a reason, they've done

0:47:56.960 --> 0:47:59.359
<v Speaker 1>something bad. They're in there for a reason making break

0:47:59.480 --> 0:48:03.160
<v Speaker 1>rocks and bread. Who cares their prisoners? And I was

0:48:03.239 --> 0:48:05.920
<v Speaker 1>worried that what I was am I going soft? I've

0:48:05.920 --> 0:48:07.480
<v Speaker 1>been out of the cops. Am I looking at this

0:48:07.880 --> 0:48:12.000
<v Speaker 1>through the wrong lens? I spoke to Ken Marslew, whose son.

0:48:11.960 --> 0:48:12.880
<v Speaker 2>Was murdered and.

0:48:14.360 --> 0:48:17.560
<v Speaker 1>A terrible situation robbery out of pizza hut and his

0:48:17.840 --> 0:48:20.319
<v Speaker 1>son was shot and killed. He was working there. Ken

0:48:20.480 --> 0:48:23.520
<v Speaker 1>was angry. Ken was angry when it happened. The people

0:48:23.560 --> 0:48:25.920
<v Speaker 1>were responsible for it were caught, and he was pushing,

0:48:26.000 --> 0:48:29.920
<v Speaker 1>let's get tough on crime, blah blah blah. He's changed

0:48:29.960 --> 0:48:32.719
<v Speaker 1>his tune now. And I'm sure you've crossed paths with

0:48:32.840 --> 0:48:35.960
<v Speaker 1>him over the years. He's a good friend of Mindy's.

0:48:36.200 --> 0:48:37.920
<v Speaker 2>And I spoke to him.

0:48:37.920 --> 0:48:40.480
<v Speaker 1>I said, Ken, your thought on it, your thoughts like

0:48:40.640 --> 0:48:44.280
<v Speaker 1>you have the right to be angry. You are your

0:48:44.440 --> 0:48:47.200
<v Speaker 1>son has been murdered. You've felt the full pain of

0:48:47.280 --> 0:48:49.759
<v Speaker 1>what crime can do to a family. And he said,

0:48:49.880 --> 0:48:53.520
<v Speaker 1>I was angry. I was angry, and I'm still angry today.

0:48:53.560 --> 0:48:55.440
<v Speaker 1>But I'm not going to let the angers destroy me.

0:48:55.560 --> 0:48:58.040
<v Speaker 1>And I say this, Gary, I say this, but if

0:48:58.080 --> 0:49:00.400
<v Speaker 1>people are saying, well, you're just getting soft on crime.

0:49:01.080 --> 0:49:05.960
<v Speaker 1>If we're reducing crime, we're reducing victims. And agree the

0:49:06.040 --> 0:49:09.040
<v Speaker 1>moment he said that, I'm thinking, yeah, Well, sometimes the

0:49:09.760 --> 0:49:12.439
<v Speaker 1>simplest solution is the most obvious, and that's what he's saying.

0:49:12.600 --> 0:49:15.000
<v Speaker 1>We're not getting soft on crime, We're getting smart. On

0:49:15.160 --> 0:49:18.919
<v Speaker 1>crime and if you want to protect victims, reduce crime

0:49:18.960 --> 0:49:20.040
<v Speaker 1>and you protect victims.

0:49:20.120 --> 0:49:22.319
<v Speaker 2>So one hundreds I couldn't agree. No, And that's why

0:49:22.320 --> 0:49:24.839
<v Speaker 2>I say, do you want justice or do you want revenge? Yeah?

0:49:24.960 --> 0:49:26.920
<v Speaker 2>You know, because I think we get them mixed up

0:49:27.160 --> 0:49:32.000
<v Speaker 2>because you know, do you want to punish? And don't

0:49:32.040 --> 0:49:36.040
<v Speaker 2>get me wrong, you know, victims of crime have every right,

0:49:36.480 --> 0:49:39.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, and I imagine you know, the families the

0:49:39.600 --> 0:49:42.600
<v Speaker 2>victims of crime, you know, have every right to be angry,

0:49:42.960 --> 0:49:45.480
<v Speaker 2>to have all the normal human emotions. We're not saying that,

0:49:46.080 --> 0:49:49.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, but do they you know, if you're and

0:49:50.000 --> 0:49:51.759
<v Speaker 2>this is what I said to these people, you know,

0:49:51.920 --> 0:49:54.560
<v Speaker 2>up in Mareva. I said, you know, your daughter's been murdered.

0:49:54.560 --> 0:49:58.400
<v Speaker 2>There's nothing we can do to bring her back. But

0:49:58.560 --> 0:50:01.520
<v Speaker 2>do you want that person to be released and put

0:50:01.560 --> 0:50:04.560
<v Speaker 2>another family through what you have gone through? Or do

0:50:04.680 --> 0:50:07.440
<v Speaker 2>you want to have a system where that person is

0:50:07.480 --> 0:50:12.520
<v Speaker 2>held accountable but they're also supported to heal from their

0:50:12.600 --> 0:50:17.239
<v Speaker 2>trauma and to address their behaviors. So at least when

0:50:17.280 --> 0:50:22.399
<v Speaker 2>they get out, we're given ourselves, the community, a much

0:50:22.480 --> 0:50:24.400
<v Speaker 2>better chance that they're not going to perpetrate onto the

0:50:24.480 --> 0:50:25.040
<v Speaker 2>next victim.

0:50:25.280 --> 0:50:28.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And it's hard. It's hard to think through that.

0:50:29.000 --> 0:50:30.840
<v Speaker 1>But when you break it down, you strip all the

0:50:30.880 --> 0:50:33.200
<v Speaker 1>emotion away and all that it is the right thing

0:50:33.239 --> 0:50:33.400
<v Speaker 1>to do.

0:50:34.120 --> 0:50:37.800
<v Speaker 2>I think it is. You know, I was reading this

0:50:37.880 --> 0:50:42.600
<v Speaker 2>singing a little while ago. You know the the safest

0:50:42.680 --> 0:50:46.120
<v Speaker 2>communities have the least amount of police. Yeah, well, you

0:50:46.239 --> 0:50:49.719
<v Speaker 2>know what I mean. It makes and I remember a

0:50:49.800 --> 0:50:50.400
<v Speaker 2>while ago.

0:50:50.560 --> 0:50:53.840
<v Speaker 1>Heard some informed police, some senior police, say well, we

0:50:53.960 --> 0:50:56.920
<v Speaker 1>can't arrest our way out of the situation. No. I

0:50:57.160 --> 0:51:00.520
<v Speaker 1>like that attitude because sometimes the pub talking it will

0:51:00.560 --> 0:51:03.160
<v Speaker 1>put more police when stayed elections.

0:51:03.680 --> 0:51:04.520
<v Speaker 2>I was in the cops.

0:51:04.800 --> 0:51:06.319
<v Speaker 1>I used to hate it when there was a law

0:51:06.360 --> 0:51:08.759
<v Speaker 1>and order issue and what they'd say, well, we're going

0:51:08.840 --> 0:51:11.200
<v Speaker 1>to increase the police. And I look, they announced before

0:51:11.239 --> 0:51:14.680
<v Speaker 1>the election, we've increased five hundred new police. Nothing about

0:51:14.719 --> 0:51:16.719
<v Speaker 1>the quality of the five hundred that they've signed up.

0:51:16.800 --> 0:51:19.040
<v Speaker 1>We'll just give you numbers and then may cause problems

0:51:19.080 --> 0:51:21.520
<v Speaker 1>for the rest of their career until they retire for

0:51:22.040 --> 0:51:26.080
<v Speaker 1>some bizarre reason. That's not the way to reduce crime.

0:51:26.200 --> 0:51:29.640
<v Speaker 1>I always thought I said this throughout my police career,

0:51:29.680 --> 0:51:31.879
<v Speaker 1>and people thought it was a little bit strange. When yeah,

0:51:31.920 --> 0:51:33.719
<v Speaker 1>because people think a cop they're going to come up

0:51:33.760 --> 0:51:36.120
<v Speaker 1>to me go, yeah, let's get more police, and I go,

0:51:36.400 --> 0:51:38.360
<v Speaker 1>I would be putting the money. If we want to

0:51:38.400 --> 0:51:43.040
<v Speaker 1>reduce crime into education, I thought that was the way

0:51:43.120 --> 0:51:43.239
<v Speaker 1>to go.

0:51:43.480 --> 0:51:45.759
<v Speaker 2>Well can you you know I started on it before.

0:51:45.800 --> 0:51:49.040
<v Speaker 2>Can you imagine? You know, the average class now is

0:51:49.080 --> 0:51:53.120
<v Speaker 2>twenty six twenty eight. If you reduced the spend on crime,

0:51:53.400 --> 0:51:56.280
<v Speaker 2>on police and prisons, and you put that into education

0:51:56.960 --> 0:51:59.919
<v Speaker 2>and the teacher's got twenty kids, you know, those kids

0:52:00.320 --> 0:52:03.120
<v Speaker 2>that get more one on one, they don't slip through.

0:52:03.520 --> 0:52:06.480
<v Speaker 2>They can get if we catch them there, you know,

0:52:07.520 --> 0:52:11.359
<v Speaker 2>we can change the whole trajectory of And I'll tell

0:52:11.360 --> 0:52:13.680
<v Speaker 2>you this. So I did some quick mathematics. So you know,

0:52:13.840 --> 0:52:17.799
<v Speaker 2>twenty years engaged in the criminal justice system ire at

0:52:17.880 --> 0:52:21.239
<v Speaker 2>five million. That's the cost to the community that I

0:52:21.360 --> 0:52:25.440
<v Speaker 2>cost five million, you know to send someone to treatments

0:52:25.440 --> 0:52:29.880
<v Speaker 2>about twenty four thousand dollars. And you know, I'm laughing

0:52:29.920 --> 0:52:31.560
<v Speaker 2>because when you break it down like that, wall, No,

0:52:31.600 --> 0:52:33.839
<v Speaker 2>it's insane. The only you know, I say to people,

0:52:33.920 --> 0:52:36.799
<v Speaker 2>the only bed I can guarantee you is a prison bed.

0:52:37.160 --> 0:52:41.200
<v Speaker 2>I can't guarantee you tonight, are betting a mental health hospital.

0:52:41.360 --> 0:52:44.200
<v Speaker 2>I can't even guarantee you a betting a hospital. I

0:52:44.280 --> 0:52:47.560
<v Speaker 2>can't guarantee you a better at a domestic violence refuge.

0:52:47.800 --> 0:52:49.680
<v Speaker 2>That's where we should be able to, isn't it? The

0:52:49.760 --> 0:52:53.320
<v Speaker 2>systems upside down? The only bed and again, and this

0:52:53.440 --> 0:52:56.480
<v Speaker 2>is why, you know, I think it's easy for people

0:52:56.520 --> 0:52:59.560
<v Speaker 2>to blame the police and corrections. The politicians make the

0:52:59.640 --> 0:53:01.920
<v Speaker 2>laws that those two institutions implement.

0:53:02.160 --> 0:53:03.839
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, at the end of the day, I think there

0:53:03.920 --> 0:53:05.640
<v Speaker 3>needs to be accountability.

0:53:05.239 --> 0:53:07.239
<v Speaker 2>And there isn't you know, they just go, oh, you know,

0:53:07.320 --> 0:53:09.480
<v Speaker 2>it's the police. So we've got all this sort of stuff.

0:53:09.760 --> 0:53:11.759
<v Speaker 2>But as you said, like you know, the war on

0:53:11.880 --> 0:53:13.560
<v Speaker 2>drugs doesn't work, and now we've got a war on

0:53:13.640 --> 0:53:16.759
<v Speaker 2>domestic violence, and it's like, have we not you know

0:53:16.840 --> 0:53:20.040
<v Speaker 2>you heard how stupid I was. Yeah, it's you know

0:53:20.160 --> 0:53:22.120
<v Speaker 2>that the insanity is doing the same thing and thinking

0:53:22.200 --> 0:53:24.279
<v Speaker 2>we're going to get a different outcome, and we're doing

0:53:24.360 --> 0:53:25.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, I say to people.

0:53:26.200 --> 0:53:28.800
<v Speaker 1>And like the war on domestic violence, and it's a

0:53:28.880 --> 0:53:32.440
<v Speaker 1>complex one, that it's an emotional one, that it's scary

0:53:32.520 --> 0:53:34.759
<v Speaker 1>what's happened, and we see the results of it. Yep,

0:53:35.320 --> 0:53:38.440
<v Speaker 1>But let's break you down what we're saying here choosing

0:53:38.480 --> 0:53:41.279
<v Speaker 1>their words carefully. Okay, we're going to get tough on

0:53:41.400 --> 0:53:44.840
<v Speaker 1>domestic violence. You're you're at home, you say something, the

0:53:44.920 --> 0:53:47.640
<v Speaker 1>cops are going to come and lock you up. They're

0:53:47.680 --> 0:53:50.200
<v Speaker 1>going to get more powers for domestic violence. Lock you up,

0:53:50.440 --> 0:53:52.760
<v Speaker 1>you get put in the cell. You're an angry person.

0:53:53.160 --> 0:53:55.520
<v Speaker 1>Nothing to address what's caused the anger. You're just getting

0:53:55.560 --> 0:53:57.839
<v Speaker 1>more and more angry. And then you get let out.

0:53:58.600 --> 0:54:01.680
<v Speaker 2>And have you changed? No, you haven't changed.

0:54:01.719 --> 0:54:02.400
<v Speaker 3>You're just angry.

0:54:03.840 --> 0:54:08.400
<v Speaker 2>So let's address the problem. And there's no we've taken

0:54:08.400 --> 0:54:11.040
<v Speaker 2>away the discretionary power of our police and our court.

0:54:11.239 --> 0:54:13.839
<v Speaker 2>You know, I was on the board at Rainbow Lodge

0:54:13.880 --> 0:54:15.680
<v Speaker 2>for eight years and I sat on there with a

0:54:15.719 --> 0:54:18.680
<v Speaker 2>great man. He's no longer here, Judge Joe Moore. And

0:54:18.800 --> 0:54:20.640
<v Speaker 2>you know he said to me, you know two proud things,

0:54:20.800 --> 0:54:22.800
<v Speaker 2>claud You know I'm the most appealed judge in the

0:54:22.840 --> 0:54:25.600
<v Speaker 2>district Court. He said, I'm proud of that. And he

0:54:25.680 --> 0:54:28.239
<v Speaker 2>said the new South Wales Crime Act clearly states that

0:54:28.320 --> 0:54:31.280
<v Speaker 2>in prisonment is the last option, not the first, okay,

0:54:31.640 --> 0:54:35.240
<v Speaker 2>And so held on to that. Yeah, And he also

0:54:35.400 --> 0:54:37.759
<v Speaker 2>said to me, as a judge, he said, you know

0:54:37.880 --> 0:54:40.960
<v Speaker 2>The problem is with mandatory sentencing. He says, when the

0:54:41.040 --> 0:54:42.840
<v Speaker 2>guy comes to me first time, he needs to go

0:54:42.920 --> 0:54:44.879
<v Speaker 2>to jail. When he comes the second time, he needs

0:54:44.960 --> 0:54:48.000
<v Speaker 2>but the third time, I go, ah, I can't send

0:54:48.080 --> 0:54:50.400
<v Speaker 2>him to rehab because he's three times he's mandatory got

0:54:50.440 --> 0:54:52.600
<v Speaker 2>to go to jail. I lose the disc you know,

0:54:53.000 --> 0:54:56.200
<v Speaker 2>he said, I've spent my life practicing in learning law,

0:54:56.400 --> 0:54:57.799
<v Speaker 2>like I'm a judge there.

0:54:58.960 --> 0:54:59.120
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:55:00.080 --> 0:55:02.759
<v Speaker 2>We put them in these positions because they're trusted, so

0:55:02.960 --> 0:55:05.960
<v Speaker 2>we need to give them the discretionary power to make

0:55:06.080 --> 0:55:09.080
<v Speaker 2>the decisions. I look, I agree with you.

0:55:09.239 --> 0:55:12.000
<v Speaker 1>I never and a career as a policeman locking people up.

0:55:12.080 --> 0:55:15.840
<v Speaker 1>I never liked that mandatory sentencing. No, to me, it

0:55:15.960 --> 0:55:18.239
<v Speaker 1>didn't fit because every crime I did there was some

0:55:18.440 --> 0:55:19.160
<v Speaker 1>different factor.

0:55:19.239 --> 0:55:22.520
<v Speaker 2>There's a nuance. Yeah, we work with people whether they're

0:55:22.520 --> 0:55:24.359
<v Speaker 2>good or bad. Yeah, that's right.

0:55:24.560 --> 0:55:27.680
<v Speaker 1>But the mandatory sentence that never I always and I

0:55:27.840 --> 0:55:30.479
<v Speaker 1>know the pub test is people going, yeah, of course

0:55:30.520 --> 0:55:32.239
<v Speaker 1>they should get ten years electioneering.

0:55:32.520 --> 0:55:36.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's not based on evidence or and it doesn't

0:55:36.160 --> 0:55:39.840
<v Speaker 2>help anyone, you know. So that two things with the police.

0:55:40.640 --> 0:55:42.920
<v Speaker 2>When I was doing that thing on the Northern Beaches,

0:55:43.000 --> 0:55:47.680
<v Speaker 2>I watched you know, and don't get me wrong, like anything,

0:55:47.719 --> 0:55:50.800
<v Speaker 2>there's bad police, but I watched these police officers stabbed

0:55:51.400 --> 0:55:54.680
<v Speaker 2>on the body camp footage at Central Station and as

0:55:54.719 --> 0:55:57.120
<v Speaker 2>I was watching it, I'm going I would have shot

0:55:57.160 --> 0:55:59.719
<v Speaker 2>the guy three times. And the officer didn't and he

0:55:59.800 --> 0:56:03.680
<v Speaker 2>got that thankfully didn't die. But you know what I thought,

0:56:03.719 --> 0:56:06.120
<v Speaker 2>fucking like you know, and it's that thing you hear

0:56:06.200 --> 0:56:09.080
<v Speaker 2>the bad stuff, but you don't hear the good stuff.

0:56:11.239 --> 0:56:13.400
<v Speaker 2>I'll tell you a great story. So one of the

0:56:13.480 --> 0:56:18.760
<v Speaker 2>things we do is we transport Aboriginal people from treatment

0:56:18.800 --> 0:56:23.000
<v Speaker 2>centers around New South Wales from custody to treatment center

0:56:23.320 --> 0:56:25.480
<v Speaker 2>and we deal with our Aboriginal peer workers on that.

0:56:25.640 --> 0:56:28.600
<v Speaker 2>So one of my Aboriginal peer workers who's lived experience,

0:56:29.200 --> 0:56:32.080
<v Speaker 2>good old Raymond Salad, who finished his parole just the

0:56:32.200 --> 0:56:34.440
<v Speaker 2>other day. He did the Welcome to country at Parliament.

0:56:35.280 --> 0:56:37.680
<v Speaker 2>So he's transporting this guy from I think he was

0:56:37.760 --> 0:56:41.320
<v Speaker 2>going from Kemsi Mid Northcote prison to Iran, a haven

0:56:41.480 --> 0:56:46.160
<v Speaker 2>outside Wolgat forty k fifty k's out of whild but

0:56:46.280 --> 0:56:49.680
<v Speaker 2>he hits a wild pig. There's no reception out there.

0:56:50.360 --> 0:56:52.600
<v Speaker 2>The guides on Supreme Court Baale has to be at

0:56:52.600 --> 0:56:55.759
<v Speaker 2>this treatment center. He knows because it's his country, he's

0:56:55.800 --> 0:56:57.440
<v Speaker 2>been out there. He goes, fuck, I've got to ring

0:56:57.600 --> 0:57:00.479
<v Speaker 2>the police. No one else is coming in the middle

0:57:00.480 --> 0:57:02.960
<v Speaker 2>of nowhere. He rings. What they gets put through the

0:57:03.040 --> 0:57:06.320
<v Speaker 2>sergeant at WOLGA tells in the situation, they send a

0:57:06.440 --> 0:57:09.920
<v Speaker 2>car out, they pick him up. He explains, you know,

0:57:10.360 --> 0:57:13.440
<v Speaker 2>this guy's like six hours out of jail. Shouldn't instagram,

0:57:13.840 --> 0:57:18.640
<v Speaker 2>and Raymond's going nonah like this like when they come,

0:57:19.360 --> 0:57:21.800
<v Speaker 2>they're coming to help. They don't worry. This is you know,

0:57:22.440 --> 0:57:24.960
<v Speaker 2>and they the sergeant organized, they picked him up and

0:57:25.040 --> 0:57:27.080
<v Speaker 2>they drove them to that rehab. So he got to

0:57:27.160 --> 0:57:31.720
<v Speaker 2>that rehab within his bail and that that that action

0:57:32.360 --> 0:57:36.160
<v Speaker 2>changes the view or you know, I don't I shouldn't

0:57:36.160 --> 0:57:40.000
<v Speaker 2>say this, but I will. Raymond called me the other day,

0:57:40.000 --> 0:57:42.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't know the van our workban had run out.

0:57:43.280 --> 0:57:46.160
<v Speaker 2>He had five guys. He was one day off finish

0:57:46.200 --> 0:57:49.080
<v Speaker 2>in his parole. He had five six Aboriginal man in

0:57:49.120 --> 0:57:52.160
<v Speaker 2>a brand new car. I'm sorry, but there is racial profile.

0:57:52.360 --> 0:57:54.840
<v Speaker 2>There wasn't this time. So it came up and you know,

0:57:54.920 --> 0:57:56.760
<v Speaker 2>the cameras read the number plates that came up. There

0:57:56.840 --> 0:57:59.960
<v Speaker 2>was no regio. He pulled Raymond over. Raymond explained what

0:58:00.160 --> 0:58:02.040
<v Speaker 2>he was doing, and he said, I'll ring my boss

0:58:02.120 --> 0:58:06.080
<v Speaker 2>and I spoke to him and I don't know where,

0:58:06.160 --> 0:58:08.080
<v Speaker 2>and he didn't find us or anything. And I was

0:58:08.120 --> 0:58:12.040
<v Speaker 2>able to get on within fifteen minutes and get it registered. Now,

0:58:12.120 --> 0:58:14.320
<v Speaker 2>I don't know whether he made a conscious decision or not,

0:58:14.440 --> 0:58:17.600
<v Speaker 2>but those guys in that car, their experience of policing

0:58:17.720 --> 0:58:19.520
<v Speaker 2>isn't that you know, it's the same as the guy

0:58:19.560 --> 0:58:22.160
<v Speaker 2>who come and picked up the guys, you know at

0:58:22.240 --> 0:58:25.360
<v Speaker 2>the pig. Yeah, but the impact they have, like the

0:58:25.440 --> 0:58:27.720
<v Speaker 2>guys come back and they're talking about, oh he didn't

0:58:27.760 --> 0:58:30.720
<v Speaker 2>he was a cool cop. Well he saw you know,

0:58:30.880 --> 0:58:33.520
<v Speaker 2>Raymond said, this is what we're doing. The car's registered here.

0:58:33.560 --> 0:58:36.160
<v Speaker 2>And you know, I didn't have that conversation, but I

0:58:36.240 --> 0:58:38.520
<v Speaker 2>imagine he went, fuck, this is I need to do

0:58:38.640 --> 0:58:42.640
<v Speaker 2>the right thing. That's a discretionary. Yeah, a good policing.

0:58:42.720 --> 0:58:46.800
<v Speaker 1>You need discretionary. If you don't, the problems can go bad. Look,

0:58:47.040 --> 0:58:49.400
<v Speaker 1>I'm conscious of the time. We are running out of time.

0:58:49.680 --> 0:58:52.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm really enjoying the discussion. I just want you to

0:58:52.320 --> 0:58:54.800
<v Speaker 1>give me a quick rundown on Rainbow Lodge because you're

0:58:54.840 --> 0:58:56.760
<v Speaker 1>a manager there and they've been doing good work and

0:58:56.840 --> 0:58:58.160
<v Speaker 1>good work for a long time.

0:58:58.320 --> 0:59:02.280
<v Speaker 2>So yep, perhaps so Rainbow Lodge, it's this is our

0:59:02.360 --> 0:59:05.640
<v Speaker 2>sixtieth year. So we are now the longest continuous running

0:59:05.680 --> 0:59:07.840
<v Speaker 2>halfway house in the world. There was one in Canada,

0:59:07.920 --> 0:59:11.040
<v Speaker 2>unfortunately he didn't survive COVID, so we've run. We've been

0:59:11.080 --> 0:59:13.240
<v Speaker 2>open twenty four hours a day for sixty years. So

0:59:13.400 --> 0:59:18.640
<v Speaker 2>we work with men leaving a term of incarceration. Currently

0:59:19.560 --> 0:59:23.840
<v Speaker 2>we have we're partnered in a program called the Wallamullist

0:59:23.880 --> 0:59:25.800
<v Speaker 2>Trial in the district called a New South Wales is

0:59:25.960 --> 0:59:29.960
<v Speaker 2>like a circle sentencing type thing where because most of

0:59:30.000 --> 0:59:32.400
<v Speaker 2>the diversionary programs have been in the lower court, so

0:59:32.480 --> 0:59:35.400
<v Speaker 2>this is the first one for more serious district offenses.

0:59:35.440 --> 0:59:39.760
<v Speaker 2>And this is another you know, Justice Jaya had this

0:59:39.920 --> 0:59:42.040
<v Speaker 2>vision because this is another thing. Our laws have got

0:59:42.080 --> 0:59:45.720
<v Speaker 2>more punitive, so these guys are being charged in indictable

0:59:46.160 --> 0:59:49.480
<v Speaker 2>so they don't ever get a chance for merit drug court,

0:59:49.520 --> 0:59:52.520
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean. So we're part of that.

0:59:52.640 --> 0:59:54.920
<v Speaker 2>So you know, we've got some two beds there, so

0:59:55.200 --> 0:59:58.680
<v Speaker 2>we have eight beds funded and there's some figures here.

0:59:58.720 --> 1:00:03.360
<v Speaker 2>This I'm the largest provider of post incarceration support for

1:00:03.480 --> 1:00:05.840
<v Speaker 2>men in New South Wales. And I have eight beds

1:00:05.880 --> 1:00:09.120
<v Speaker 2>for thirty two places for the nineteen thousand people leaving.

1:00:10.600 --> 1:00:11.440
<v Speaker 2>It's not much, is it.

1:00:11.560 --> 1:00:11.600
<v Speaker 1>No?

1:00:12.120 --> 1:00:14.720
<v Speaker 2>No, And I have another two beds funded by the

1:00:14.760 --> 1:00:18.240
<v Speaker 2>Paul Ramsey Foundation for First Nations men engaged in the

1:00:18.280 --> 1:00:20.120
<v Speaker 2>Wallomer program and they funded.

1:00:19.880 --> 1:00:23.480
<v Speaker 1>Us, and this is a place where they get released

1:00:23.480 --> 1:00:24.440
<v Speaker 1>from prison they can go.

1:00:25.000 --> 1:00:27.400
<v Speaker 2>They come and we run programs and drug and alcohol

1:00:27.560 --> 1:00:31.040
<v Speaker 2>living skills. In the last year and a half, you know,

1:00:31.360 --> 1:00:33.720
<v Speaker 2>we've gone so three years ago we were at forty

1:00:33.720 --> 1:00:36.320
<v Speaker 2>percent First Nations. Last year we were sixty eight. Currently

1:00:36.360 --> 1:00:39.440
<v Speaker 2>we're ninety seven point one. Because of the programs, we've

1:00:39.480 --> 1:00:41.760
<v Speaker 2>been able to use this funding to bring Ivan clark

1:00:41.800 --> 1:00:45.280
<v Speaker 2>in and Gamma Rada, people like Raymond, you know, lived

1:00:45.320 --> 1:00:49.480
<v Speaker 2>experienced guys. You know, one of the guys who's come

1:00:49.560 --> 1:00:51.280
<v Speaker 2>through the well and my list now does peer work.

1:00:51.320 --> 1:00:52.959
<v Speaker 2>So when we go and pick up the Wallemer guys

1:00:53.000 --> 1:00:55.000
<v Speaker 2>and transport and there's an Aboriginal.

1:00:54.520 --> 1:00:57.120
<v Speaker 3>Guy who's on it, and how much difference that makes.

1:00:57.000 --> 1:01:00.640
<v Speaker 2>You the pride in him, so you know, rainbow, you know,

1:01:00.720 --> 1:01:03.680
<v Speaker 2>but we need half a dozen rainbows you know, and

1:01:03.800 --> 1:01:06.000
<v Speaker 2>there's you know, as Mindy said, you know, I think

1:01:06.040 --> 1:01:09.400
<v Speaker 2>in her report there's a list of one hundred services

1:01:09.960 --> 1:01:12.840
<v Speaker 2>doing great work. So you know, if there's anything I

1:01:12.960 --> 1:01:15.880
<v Speaker 2>have to say is the money we spend now is wasted.

1:01:16.440 --> 1:01:19.680
<v Speaker 2>We don't need any more data, research or anything. We

1:01:19.880 --> 1:01:22.200
<v Speaker 2>know what works, we know what doesn't work. What we need,

1:01:22.280 --> 1:01:24.320
<v Speaker 2>as I said in Parliament, is the political will to

1:01:24.400 --> 1:01:24.960
<v Speaker 2>implement it.

1:01:25.400 --> 1:01:28.600
<v Speaker 1>Okay, that's that's a very important message, isn't it It

1:01:28.760 --> 1:01:30.480
<v Speaker 1>is I've got all the research has been.

1:01:30.360 --> 1:01:32.560
<v Speaker 2>Done, we know what the solution is. Yeah, we don't

1:01:32.600 --> 1:01:35.680
<v Speaker 2>need any more committees, no more raw commissions. You know,

1:01:36.000 --> 1:01:38.720
<v Speaker 2>we actually need the political will to go. We're not

1:01:38.760 --> 1:01:40.800
<v Speaker 2>going to build any more prisons, as I said at

1:01:40.840 --> 1:01:43.480
<v Speaker 2>Parliament for five years, We're going to divert that funding

1:01:43.560 --> 1:01:47.200
<v Speaker 2>into diversionary programs pre and post and as I said

1:01:47.360 --> 1:01:49.960
<v Speaker 2>in parliament, if in five years it doesn't work, lock

1:01:50.040 --> 1:01:52.600
<v Speaker 2>them up, and you know, I'll go and do something else.

1:01:52.960 --> 1:01:55.720
<v Speaker 1>Well what what a novel idea crack down on law

1:01:55.760 --> 1:01:59.480
<v Speaker 1>and order and go down that path instead of increasing jails,

1:01:59.560 --> 1:02:03.440
<v Speaker 1>increasing police and making mandatory sentencing. Look at it a

1:02:03.480 --> 1:02:06.080
<v Speaker 1>little bit differently, Yeah, if it hasn't worked. Let's change it.

1:02:06.200 --> 1:02:09.040
<v Speaker 2>And clear thing because I never answered your question about

1:02:09.040 --> 1:02:11.280
<v Speaker 2>the new bail laws because I don't think what people understand.

1:02:11.600 --> 1:02:14.640
<v Speaker 2>So that the new bail laws were based on some

1:02:14.800 --> 1:02:16.800
<v Speaker 2>of the rural communities a rise in crime, but they

1:02:16.840 --> 1:02:20.480
<v Speaker 2>were specific to breaking enters and car theft.

1:02:20.840 --> 1:02:25.160
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so it's going to catch a certain yeah, but

1:02:25.640 --> 1:02:26.080
<v Speaker 1>we know.

1:02:26.560 --> 1:02:29.320
<v Speaker 2>And this is the outrage, that it's going to disproportionately

1:02:29.400 --> 1:02:32.360
<v Speaker 2>affect First Nations because they make up about eighty percent

1:02:32.400 --> 1:02:35.200
<v Speaker 2>of the juvenile country town especially in the country towns

1:02:35.240 --> 1:02:39.520
<v Speaker 2>and in the juvenile centers. And we know that the

1:02:39.600 --> 1:02:43.240
<v Speaker 2>evidence tells us that putting people into custody, as I said,

1:02:43.440 --> 1:02:45.720
<v Speaker 2>seventy eight point one percent of the men in my service,

1:02:46.040 --> 1:02:49.560
<v Speaker 2>we're all in the juvenile justice system. We know it's

1:02:49.600 --> 1:02:51.640
<v Speaker 2>the apprenticeship and sets them up for a lifetime of

1:02:51.680 --> 1:02:57.480
<v Speaker 2>our our incarceration. But it's like and it's politics for

1:02:58.880 --> 1:03:02.800
<v Speaker 2>re election. It's it's politics of fear. The premiere made

1:03:02.840 --> 1:03:05.720
<v Speaker 2>that this isn't based on fear because a part of

1:03:05.800 --> 1:03:08.040
<v Speaker 2>the community was outraised and it was on you know,

1:03:08.120 --> 1:03:10.520
<v Speaker 2>a current affair or you know one of those shock

1:03:10.640 --> 1:03:14.000
<v Speaker 2>jocks who you want to talk about the fear and

1:03:14.040 --> 1:03:17.080
<v Speaker 2>all that, but it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't

1:03:17.120 --> 1:03:18.640
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't solve the problem.

1:03:19.120 --> 1:03:21.560
<v Speaker 1>It's a shame we can't look at it as bipartisan

1:03:21.840 --> 1:03:25.400
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, it would make sense here, we're all on

1:03:25.520 --> 1:03:25.840
<v Speaker 1>board this.

1:03:26.600 --> 1:03:29.920
<v Speaker 2>Do we want safer communities? It is a community. And

1:03:30.600 --> 1:03:32.360
<v Speaker 2>you know you've been in the police and you know

1:03:32.640 --> 1:03:36.280
<v Speaker 2>the decent police I speak to go. You know, we

1:03:36.440 --> 1:03:39.600
<v Speaker 2>can't arrest our way out of drugs or domestic Like

1:03:39.680 --> 1:03:40.920
<v Speaker 2>it's a community solution.

1:03:41.160 --> 1:03:44.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I like it when police look at it

1:03:44.280 --> 1:03:48.120
<v Speaker 1>that way. There's other other ways of dealing with things. Look,

1:03:48.400 --> 1:03:51.040
<v Speaker 1>I just want to say thanks so much for what

1:03:51.200 --> 1:03:55.320
<v Speaker 1>you've done. Congratulation on how you've turned your life around. Like, yeah,

1:03:56.800 --> 1:03:58.800
<v Speaker 1>I sit here and laugh at some of your life

1:03:58.880 --> 1:04:03.960
<v Speaker 1>decisions in let's call it part part one. Yeah, yeah,

1:04:04.240 --> 1:04:07.800
<v Speaker 1>they are very concerning Part one. Who's some of the

1:04:07.920 --> 1:04:10.640
<v Speaker 1>decisions you make? But I think you've articulated very well

1:04:11.200 --> 1:04:14.840
<v Speaker 1>on what happens when you get in the system. You

1:04:14.960 --> 1:04:18.720
<v Speaker 1>become a drug addict, you become dependent, you make stupid decisions.

1:04:19.240 --> 1:04:22.040
<v Speaker 1>But what I find most interesting about our chat is

1:04:22.120 --> 1:04:24.920
<v Speaker 1>the way that you're looking at solutions to problems problems

1:04:24.920 --> 1:04:28.160
<v Speaker 1>that affect all of us. It's always in our face, Laura,

1:04:28.200 --> 1:04:32.120
<v Speaker 1>and all the crime. Everything's in our face about that money, homelessness,

1:04:32.200 --> 1:04:34.680
<v Speaker 1>that type of thing. And you're looking at solutions. And

1:04:34.840 --> 1:04:37.200
<v Speaker 1>I just like to sum up the bit as well

1:04:37.560 --> 1:04:39.760
<v Speaker 1>that you're saying, we don't need to review this again,

1:04:39.880 --> 1:04:41.960
<v Speaker 1>we don't need more committees, we don't need that.

1:04:42.440 --> 1:04:45.280
<v Speaker 2>We know what the solution is. Let's have the balls

1:04:45.320 --> 1:04:49.240
<v Speaker 2>to do it exactly. Yeah, yeah, okay, good pleasure. Thanks,

1:04:49.720 --> 1:04:56.480
<v Speaker 2>thanks very much. Well. Claude's an interesting character.

1:04:56.520 --> 1:04:59.120
<v Speaker 1>It really gave an insight into what goes through the

1:04:59.200 --> 1:05:02.280
<v Speaker 1>mind of an attic and the chaos of his life,

1:05:02.320 --> 1:05:05.520
<v Speaker 1>the decisions that he was making. Look, he comes across

1:05:05.560 --> 1:05:08.720
<v Speaker 1>as a nice person, but he's just making ridiculous decisions

1:05:09.080 --> 1:05:11.440
<v Speaker 1>and how driven he was because of his drug addiction.

1:05:11.800 --> 1:05:14.320
<v Speaker 1>I think some of the points he's made are very worthwhile.