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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys staid,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public.

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Speaker 2: Into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Claud Robertson, Welcome back to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Gerry.

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Speaker 1: Now in part one, Claude, We've got a very interesting

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Speaker 1: take on your life, and I've got to say it.

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Speaker 1: I've just been thinking about the.

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Speaker 2: Chaos of your life, the chaos of your life.

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Speaker 1: When it goes down a path that you're dependent on drugs.

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Speaker 1: You did seven years in prison, caught for different things,

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Speaker 1: made a lot of stupid decisions.

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Speaker 2: Yep, likely.

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Speaker 1: And I look at it the way that your life is,

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Speaker 1: the way we left you in and out the jail,

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Speaker 1: in there and just not learning, still your addictions carrying

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Speaker 1: through the prison system. I got to say, from my

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Speaker 1: point of view, it looked like you're going down the

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Speaker 1: one way straight. You're even going to end up dead

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Speaker 1: or in prison for the rest of your life.

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Speaker 2: That's funny you say that, because that was a pivotal moment.

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Speaker 2: I think. You know, we left the last time. My

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Speaker 2: dad had died at Gold and I was up for

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Speaker 2: a parole and I was going to Rainbow Lodge where

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Speaker 2: on our work, and I remember that last six months

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Speaker 2: coming up. I'd got my parole, I got the date,

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Speaker 2: and I was getting in some inheritance. And the insanity

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Speaker 2: was I thought this because through all that chaos, I

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Speaker 2: still had believe that a big bag of money or

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Speaker 2: a big bag of dope would fix it all. And

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Speaker 2: I thought this, and I was right, this was it.

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Speaker 1: I was going to get out, so the big bag

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Speaker 1: of money, to get the big bag of dope or

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Speaker 1: the big bag of money to invest wisely and become

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Speaker 1: a citizen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah probably not, yeah, probably not invest wisely. You know,

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Speaker 2: I think you know when I was coming out. You

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Speaker 2: know what, I don't even think I thought about it

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Speaker 2: that much. This is it.

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Speaker 1: I'm just I'm wondering when you've gone through that like

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Speaker 1: you did three years in gold when you were sold

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Speaker 1: of the prison officer in Cesnok, you're not having a

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Speaker 1: good time in Golden Goblin's not a fun place.

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Speaker 2: It's a horrible place. Do you so you were what

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Speaker 2: at this age you were thirty thirty six thirty six?

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Speaker 1: Do you have moments of reflection when you're sitting there,

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Speaker 1: because you've got a lot of time to time to

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Speaker 1: think when you're in prison, do you have moments and think,

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Speaker 1: why has my life gone down this path? Not?

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Speaker 2: At that stay, I think I was so focused on

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Speaker 2: that I was getting my inheritance, that this was going

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Speaker 2: to change everything, and still in huge.

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Speaker 1: Change everything, as in give you access to drugs?

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Speaker 2: What was the change? Well, I think still then I

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Speaker 2: was in a lot of denial and I still thought

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Speaker 2: I could use manageably if I had enough access and

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Speaker 2: I did it the right way.

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Speaker 1: Right, so I've got money, I can still have my drugs.

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Speaker 1: I don't have to be a criminal, and I live all.

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Speaker 2: Not do crime. That I'm not desperate crime insane, So

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Speaker 2: you know, I leave there and I end up at

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Speaker 2: Rainbow Lodge, and you know, two weeks later, I and

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Speaker 2: at this stage, I'm still on I think i'd reduce

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Speaker 2: I was only seventy five meals of a methadone because

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Speaker 2: they wouldn't let me on parole without still being on methodone.

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Speaker 2: Two weeks after that, you know, I get my inheritance,

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Speaker 2: and five weeks later I'm back in prison. But that

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Speaker 2: last day, you know, and I sat in the Estoria

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Speaker 2: with my girlfriend at the time, and I just shot

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Speaker 2: it all up on co in heroin, and I remember

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Speaker 2: the insanity of going, you know, when it gets to

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Speaker 2: thirty twenty ten, well stop, yeah, yeah, you're going down.

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Speaker 2: You know, we'll stop like well, you know. And what

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Speaker 2: happened was I wake up the last day and it

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Speaker 2: had all gone, and I was that crazy that I

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Speaker 2: jumped a cab with her because I again I just thought,

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Speaker 2: I need to get a shot of heroin to work

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Speaker 2: out what I'm going to do, just insane. So I

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Speaker 2: jump a cab. I go to the Leichhart Social Security

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Speaker 2: Office where I'm registered at because I've been at Rainbow

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Speaker 2: Lodge and I'm that insane I believe that. I go

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Speaker 2: up to the counter and I said to my girlfriend,

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Speaker 2: I'll get a counter check because I'll tell them i'm

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Speaker 2: on the run, which I was at this stage from parole,

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Speaker 2: and they'll give it to me because otherwise I'm going

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Speaker 2: to have to rob someone.

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Speaker 3: And like I thought, that was that's your logic, that

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Speaker 3: was my logic.

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Speaker 2: And so I go up to the guy and you

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Speaker 2: can still get counter checks in those days, and you know,

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Speaker 2: he said no, and I just jumped the counter and

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Speaker 2: you know, hit him and robbed him. And don't worry

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Speaker 2: about prison. The Airport centerally know more about you than

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Speaker 2: fucking anyway. It was the most in and it camera

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Speaker 2: like it was just so desperate, and I knew I

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Speaker 2: was in trouble because as we were running out with

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Speaker 2: this guy's will and phone my girlfriend, who unfortunately is

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Speaker 2: still up the cross using said to me, you're fucking fucked,

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Speaker 2: And I thought, well, I'm in trouble here because she's bad,

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Speaker 2: you know if she reckons. Yeah, so you know, I

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Speaker 2: jump another two cabs and it's like a movie because

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Speaker 2: we're going up Paramatta Road towards Kings Cross and all

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Speaker 2: the vans are coming towards like can't And I get

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Speaker 2: there and you know, I've got this phone and still

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking, I just got to get a shot at

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Speaker 2: Heroin to work out what I'm going to do, and pivotal,

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Speaker 2: very pertle moment at a moment of clarity, spiritual awaiting,

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Speaker 2: call it whatever you want. I saw the undercovers across

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Speaker 2: the road. My girlfriend goes, I think they've peggja. Something

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Speaker 2: just overcame. I said, I can't do this anymore. I

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Speaker 2: gave the wallet, the phone and kisser and said I'm

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Speaker 2: going to give myself up. And I remember walking across

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Speaker 2: the road and they're looking at me and I'm walking

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Speaker 2: towards it, and you know, I don't know what they thought,

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Speaker 2: but they're on, you know, And I said, oh, you're

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Speaker 2: looking for me. They gave them my name and they're

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Speaker 2: you know, And I was so defeated that he said,

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Speaker 2: I don't even need to carf your doing. I said, no,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: Is that that watershed name of is that.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent? One hundred percent? You know? And they

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Speaker 2: put me because at King's Cross they're not even cells

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Speaker 2: there like docs, and I just remember them put me

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Speaker 2: in there. And I just burst out crying and just thought,

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Speaker 2: fuck that. Fuck that's over, you know now, And I

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Speaker 2: just wanted to go back where there was no responsibility.

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Speaker 2: In prison.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's you can become institutionalized. Like I've said,

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Speaker 1: had a lot of people say to me when I

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Speaker 1: was in the cops that it's easier in there. Im fair,

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Speaker 1: I know what I'm doing, I know people in there.

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Speaker 1: I don't have to worry about where I'm going to

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Speaker 1: get my next dollar's.

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Speaker 2: Well, i'd left, you know, that was it. You know,

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Speaker 2: this was the moment I'd wait my whole life for,

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Speaker 2: and again it just ended in this disaster. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So, and I'm really interested in what's going through your

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Speaker 1: mind because I think people who have been listening to

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Speaker 1: this podcast will really get a sense of how desperate

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Speaker 1: and ridiculous the life of an addict is. Yeah, it's chaos. Yep,

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Speaker 1: you're giving yourself up. Did you just think, Okay, this

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Speaker 1: is going to be my life. Just send me back

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Speaker 1: back to prison because you get your drugs in prison.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah. I had access to drugs every single

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Speaker 2: not that I use them every day, but there's access.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's full of drugs. No, you know, I

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Speaker 2: just I didn't know what I thought. I just knew

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Speaker 2: I needed to be protected from myself, you know. And

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Speaker 2: so I end up back at MRC, and I remember,

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Speaker 2: it's embarrassing to even talk about it, and I'm going

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Speaker 2: to the wing officer and saying, I want to see

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Speaker 2: the AOD you know, the drug worker, you know, And

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Speaker 2: he said to me about time Robert, and I was

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Speaker 2: quite offended. Yeah, you know, I'm the last to catch

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Speaker 2: on always.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, with any addiction, I think the first step

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Speaker 1: is you've got to want to give it up, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: You within yourself have got one to stop it. So

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Speaker 1: that's probably the first step you needed to take.

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Speaker 2: That's the first step. The second step is I'm walking

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Speaker 2: on doing laps in at MWRC. You know, I've been

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Speaker 2: back in a couple of weeks. I've got a sweeper's job,

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Speaker 2: I've got a one out with a TV full of cockroaches,

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Speaker 2: and I've got nikes on and me and this other

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Speaker 2: guy are hanging shit on this other guy because he's

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Speaker 2: went and done lot volleys and there's a guy on

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Speaker 2: the other side of him doing laps and that's I'm

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Speaker 2: like thirty six, got nikes and greens on, thinking I'm

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Speaker 2: killing it. We're hanging shit because that's what you're doing jail.

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Speaker 2: You have to hang shit on someone else to feel

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Speaker 2: better about itself. And there's the next guy across from him,

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Speaker 2: looked in his sixties, could have been younger, and I

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Speaker 2: just I just had this moment where I looked past

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Speaker 2: the guy in the dun lot Volleys and went, fuck,

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Speaker 2: it's that's it. It's this is gonna Is this it?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: Is this it?

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Speaker 1: I've heard people have spent a lot of time in

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Speaker 1: prison when they come to the realization said when they

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Speaker 1: see the older prisoners, and it's all exciting when you're

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Speaker 1: a young gangster.

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Speaker 2: You know I'm going to make a mark. I'm a

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Speaker 2: tough guy.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing this, and there was some glory to it,

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Speaker 1: and you know you had the women, you had this,

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Speaker 1: you had that. And then then they see the people

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Speaker 1: that had been broken by the jail system and how

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Speaker 1: sad it really is. You look a look at that old,

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Speaker 1: old person. You're looking at that old person thinking, fuck,

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Speaker 1: that could be me very soon.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent. So I've breached my paroles. I'm in

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Speaker 2: for a breach of parole and a new assault charge

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Speaker 2: and you know, I think that's still from personal they

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Speaker 2: caught they charged me with so but first of all,

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Speaker 2: I don't even I don't worry even about the charge

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Speaker 2: I got before the parole board. And I've seen the

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Speaker 2: AOD worker and I'm like, fuck, I'm ready to change.

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Speaker 2: I want to go rehab. And he writes a report

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Speaker 2: and all that, and I go before the parole b

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Speaker 2: and the parole board because I met mac. So it's

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Speaker 2: I'm in a booth like this and my lawyer and

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Speaker 2: the parole border in the city and I've just got

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Speaker 2: a phone to speak to my lawyer. I speak, you know,

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Speaker 2: I want to go to who's aware of it? What

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Speaker 2: you know? And I'm thinking, yeah, they're gonna they're gonna

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Speaker 2: clap me, like insaying like and go oh about time,

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Speaker 2: robo what a good man. He's finally decided, Yeah, it

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Speaker 2: comes on. He you know, my lawyer does his bit,

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Speaker 2: you know, and they go away for like ninety seconds

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Speaker 2: and come back and they just changed the parole laws

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Speaker 2: there so it was automatic one year then for breaching

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Speaker 2: for breaching automatic, So they came back and they just said,

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Speaker 2: may you're not going anywhere. You fucking you've been out

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Speaker 2: five six weeks. You're doing a year. We'll see you

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Speaker 2: in a year. I just broke down cry and it

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Speaker 2: saved me because the guard was he didn't know what

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Speaker 2: to do, so he didn't come and grab me. But

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Speaker 2: I grabbed the phone again and my lawyer was still there,

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Speaker 2: and like I just knew I just needed some and

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Speaker 2: I said to him, mate, you've got to get it.

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Speaker 2: You've got to get I need something. I need. Fuck,

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Speaker 2: I can't do this again. I need something. I need

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Speaker 2: it to be different. To this day, they still don't

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Speaker 2: know what he said to them because it was off.

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Speaker 2: The screen was off, you know, and you know because

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Speaker 2: I was crying the guard and then the guard says

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Speaker 2: that they're going to come back on. They come back

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Speaker 2: on the screen and they say to me, all right,

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Speaker 2: you know you're lawyers, but you're going to still do

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Speaker 2: a year in prison, but we're going to send you

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Speaker 2: to do a rehab in jail called Nara Nara. And

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Speaker 2: that was enough. Okay, that was I just thought, fuck,

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Speaker 2: all right, that was hope.

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Speaker 1: You know, that was enough as a program they're going

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Speaker 1: to put you on in prison.

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Speaker 2: They were saying, so the last six months because it

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Speaker 2: went for six months, I think it did. So you

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Speaker 2: do six months and then the last six months of

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Speaker 2: this period and by that, you know. So as soon

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Speaker 2: as I got that, you know, I speak to my line,

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Speaker 2: plead guilty to the charge, you know, and they don't

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Speaker 2: give me.

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Speaker 3: I don't know what they gave me eight months.

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Speaker 2: Or whatever it was. So you know, I wasn't going

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Speaker 2: to do any more time. So what was you said?

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Speaker 1: Yes, that was enough? That is that really the turning point? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Is that your moment where you've gone, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: make this work.

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Speaker 2: It is. But I'll tell you addiction such a strong

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Speaker 2: thing because I then go to fifteen when they moved

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Speaker 2: me to Long Bay because that's where the program was.

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Speaker 2: So I'm at fifteen Wing, not where the program is,

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Speaker 2: pre the program, and I'm using every day.

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Speaker 1: Even so, this is a great new model, claud that

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Speaker 1: has pleaded with everyone, and there people are moving mountains

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Speaker 1: to put in this program.

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Speaker 2: But as you just said before, I was broken. That

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Speaker 2: was pathetic. So you know, the start shooting the wire

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Speaker 2: of the fence at Paramatta, you know, getting stabbed. Now

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Speaker 2: I'm swiping, I'm swapping my white ox for Sarah Wall

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Speaker 2: to take on top of my one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 2: mils A methodone to fucking wipe me out every night

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Speaker 2: and getting up every morning with my We used to

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Speaker 2: have they would put a video on in the wing,

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Speaker 2: you know, and your wake up a sh as a

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Speaker 2: video and I'd have porridge a'll owed me that I

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Speaker 2: can't remember making, and I go, oh fucking I'd see

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Speaker 2: the guy I bought the cerracle off. I go, you know, fuck,

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Speaker 2: I'm not doing that again. At three o'clock, I'd be

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Speaker 2: racing to his cell, thinking, fuck, I hope he hasn't

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Speaker 2: sold him and ever you go, I know you're always

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Speaker 2: coming back. Yeah, you know. And that was and that

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Speaker 2: was changed. But I couldn't stop. And then you know,

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Speaker 2: I got into Nara Noura, and then I made the

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Speaker 2: first serious decision. I just went all right because I

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Speaker 2: was on methadone. I've never been allowed to come off

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Speaker 2: methadone in jail because of the risk I posed. So

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Speaker 2: they were going to reduce me from one hundred and

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Speaker 2: fifty down to fifty before they.

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Speaker 1: And just explain for people. I think most people understand methadone,

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Speaker 1: but explain the science behind.

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Speaker 2: That, so they give it to you as a blocker

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Speaker 2: to stop you from using heroin. So it's the Germans invented,

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Speaker 2: and actually because they couldn't get access to opium because

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Speaker 2: the British rought India and Afghanistan in World War two.

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Speaker 2: So they need it because you know, you needed it

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Speaker 2: from all the wounded soldiers and stuff. So it's a

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Speaker 2: long acting so you can you drink it once a

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Speaker 2: day and it last twenty four hours and it takes

301
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Speaker 2: away the appetite for heroin. Or if I was on

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Speaker 2: that high, you couldn't use any heroin, it wouldn't make

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Speaker 2: any difference. So they started to reduce me. But that

304
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Speaker 2: was when I the first serious and I believe this

305
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Speaker 2: was the start of my recovery because I made it

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Speaker 2: not to anyone else, no one to myself. In my cell,

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Speaker 2: I went, or I'm just going to take my methodone

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Speaker 2: as prescribed, nothing else. That's it, because that's I couldn't

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Speaker 2: come off it. I knew that I had to accept

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Speaker 2: my circumstances, but I had to make a commitment, and

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Speaker 2: I did that and I got through that program. I

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Speaker 2: got down to fifty mils of methodone, and I couldn't

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Speaker 2: get parole because my family lived in a state my

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00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,880
Speaker 2: parents were didn't because they changed the parole or so

315
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,200
Speaker 2: you needed a suitable address, so you had to do

316
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Speaker 2: it an extra year and you needed a suit and

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Speaker 2: I couldn't get a suitable address, which I'm so glad

318
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Speaker 2: because the only place that I could go to And again,

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Speaker 2: you know, sliding door moment. You know, at that time,

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Speaker 2: there was two places in the world that brought you

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Speaker 2: off methadone. There was Who's in Sydney and there was

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Speaker 2: one in New York. And I was lucky. So you know,

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Speaker 2: I got parole to Who's, which was on Cleveland Street,

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Speaker 2: and I went back down to the methadone clinic that

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Speaker 2: I used to go to and I had to walk

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Speaker 2: down there, and you know, they took me to meetings

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Speaker 2: of Narcotics Anonymous, and they you know, reduced me off heroin,

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Speaker 2: you know, And but you know, it was there was

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Speaker 2: pivotal moments there because it was there was about eighteen

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Speaker 2: people in the house, I remember, but sitting out the

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Speaker 2: back one night and never one was winge. And at

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Speaker 2: this stage, you know how shit it was, I thought

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Speaker 2: it was the fucking best thing that had ever happened

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Speaker 2: to me, And it's crazy. The food, because the food

335
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Speaker 2: in jail shit, you know, and it's worse now than

336
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Speaker 2: when I was in there, but it was because we

337
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Speaker 2: could cook up the food. But I had three pellows

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Speaker 2: and I know that sounds insane, but I spent half

339
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Speaker 2: of my time in prison. They will give you a

340
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Speaker 2: pellow slip, but no pellow and you had to roll

341
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Speaker 2: up your tracksuit pants to put it inside the pellow

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Speaker 2: slip to sleep on.

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Speaker 3: So I seen it so little luxuries those and they

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Speaker 3: call me claude.

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Speaker 2: You know. I usually heard me at Parliament. You know.

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Speaker 2: I started my speech three five nine two three seven

347
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Speaker 2: my MIN number.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah you did, and you made a point and

349
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Speaker 1: I understood the point, but I think it hit people

350
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Speaker 1: pretty hard. That's your identification when you're in prison, you're

351
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Speaker 1: mid number.

352
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Speaker 2: And that's mine for life. No one will no one

353
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Speaker 2: else will ever get that number. You know, as I

354
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Speaker 2: said there, I don't remember my childhood phone number, but

355
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Speaker 2: my MIN number. And I haven't been in for seventeen years

356
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Speaker 2: because in prison you can't do anything without that. In

357
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Speaker 2: the moment, you know, that's what you become, that number.

358
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Speaker 2: So it's very dehumanizing. So yeah, so I was at

359
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Speaker 2: and I was on parole, and I was that rehabing parole.

360
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Speaker 2: It said to me, I had to do six months

361
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Speaker 2: in who And I remember before going there, I had

362
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Speaker 2: an argument with one of the staff at Nara Nura,

363
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Speaker 2: one of many along the way, you know, and I'm like, fuck,

364
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Speaker 2: I've just done all this time. It was fucking six

365
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Speaker 2: months and I didn't know but he was a recovering

366
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Speaker 2: addict too, and he just he said, you're a fucking idiot, CLRD,

367
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Speaker 2: You're a fucking idiot. You'll do two years for a

368
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Speaker 2: fifty dollar shot at heroin, but you won't do six

369
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Speaker 2: months to change your life. And I didn't have an answer.

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Speaker 1: When he breaks it down like that, it's a pretty

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Speaker 1: hard thing to come back again.

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Speaker 2: Fuck. I just grabbed my tail and walked out. And

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Speaker 2: it was one of those many moments that rehab I

374
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Speaker 2: went into. You know, they got me down to the

375
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Speaker 2: last mill of methadone and I'm like, you know, I

376
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Speaker 2: remember going up and seending the coordinator and going, fuck,

377
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Speaker 2: I don't need to do it. I can jump off now,

378
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,800
Speaker 2: you know. And again, pivotal moment. He didn't say to me, no,

379
00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,680
Speaker 2: you've got to take it. These are the rules. He

380
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,240
Speaker 2: asked me a question, He said, tell me what's happened

381
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Speaker 2: every other time you've come off methadone? And I went, fuck,

382
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Speaker 2: I've used Tehran every time. And he said, mate, we've

383
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Speaker 2: brought hundreds of people off methodone they've never used again.

384
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Speaker 2: Another moment of humility.

385
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Speaker 1: Okay, all these little moments. And it's interesting you say humility,

386
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Speaker 1: but it's almost acceptance of how low you've hit. And

387
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:20,520
Speaker 1: you've got to start listening to people because your path

388
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Speaker 1: is not going to see you clear.

389
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Speaker 2: Look it. You know, people go, what happened? What changed?

390
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,720
Speaker 2: You know? And you know they want you to say

391
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,560
Speaker 2: I had this spiritual fucking did what I was told

392
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Speaker 2: for the first time in my life, simple as that

393
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,399
Speaker 2: that's the only thing that changed. And I just was

394
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Speaker 2: at this point where as you heard like, you know,

395
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Speaker 2: the decisions I'd made for the last twenty five years

396
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:49,440
Speaker 2: were fucking terrible. Yeah, oh, you got no argument, you

397
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,000
Speaker 2: know what I mean? And I just thought like, there's

398
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,760
Speaker 2: nothing these people can do to harm me more than

399
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,800
Speaker 2: I harm myself. And then you know that guy, you know,

400
00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,360
Speaker 2: he said six months to change your life. He was right.

401
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,359
Speaker 2: That guy who said, you know, stay on the method

402
00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,160
Speaker 2: in one more week. I've never had methodone again. I've

403
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,159
Speaker 2: never used the drug since I followed his path. So

404
00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:13,360
Speaker 2: I started to not only listen to what people see,

405
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,280
Speaker 2: because I'm a very practical person, like your shit doesn't change.

406
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,560
Speaker 2: I'm not in want like I needed. I want to

407
00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,439
Speaker 2: get better. And it started to get better, you know,

408
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:23,480
Speaker 2: And you know, my life started to get better. And

409
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,080
Speaker 2: you know that rehab that I complained about going to

410
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,920
Speaker 2: for six months and parole is really clear. You leave

411
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,720
Speaker 2: one day for any reason before your six months, you're

412
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:34,720
Speaker 2: doing your bop. And I think I had twenty months

413
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,960
Speaker 2: left or eighteen, okay, so you needed to be that. Yeah,

414
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,480
Speaker 2: they know, they knew. They were really strict, like you weren't,

415
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:43,200
Speaker 2: you know what I mean?

416
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Speaker 1: And I think I get a sense with a lot

417
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:46,879
Speaker 1: of addicts when they come and try to pull the

418
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,359
Speaker 1: wool over people's eyes or whatever. It's people like you,

419
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 1: like you've become and the like the people that did

420
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,240
Speaker 1: this to you, the ones that have been there, done

421
00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,200
Speaker 1: that know all the bullshit that comes out of your mouth,

422
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,600
Speaker 1: because bullshit just comes out of the people's mouths when

423
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:02,080
Speaker 1: they're addicted to drugs.

424
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Speaker 2: How do you know when a junkies line, you know,

425
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:08,120
Speaker 2: their lips move. Yeah, I've heard that before. That's so true.

426
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,840
Speaker 2: You know it is true, and you know and you

427
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:17,679
Speaker 2: believe it. The other thing that happened in that that

428
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:19,679
Speaker 2: started to happen in that Nara and Nura program that

429
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,679
Speaker 2: was pivotal, and is what I talk about now is

430
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,040
Speaker 2: I've never ever, ever seen anyone punished out of her behavior.

431
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,240
Speaker 2: Don't stop it, why the behavior is in place. The

432
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,640
Speaker 2: only way I've seen people change what happening in Nara

433
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,120
Speaker 2: and Nora was the guards. We had to call each

434
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 2: other by our first names.

435
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,560
Speaker 1: Okay, that's interesting, and let's take take the conversation there

436
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,520
Speaker 1: because you know, quite often prison is about rules. You

437
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,439
Speaker 1: break the rules, you get punished. That what you're saying

438
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 1: is that with this Nara that it wasn't about punishment. No,

439
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:55,760
Speaker 1: it wasn't.

440
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,000
Speaker 2: It was about helping you along the path. Yeah, it

441
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,400
Speaker 2: was so different. You know that the guards would tell

442
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 2: me that you know, when they went to because they

443
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:05,879
Speaker 2: volunteered to work in there, that they would scratch the

444
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,400
Speaker 2: other guards would scratch their cars, let their ties down.

445
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 2: You know, some of them would have to stop eating

446
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,439
Speaker 2: in the cafeteria because they would spit in their burgers.

447
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,119
Speaker 1: They were being ostracized, whether you being you're soft on

448
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:18,080
Speaker 1: these crims.

449
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,360
Speaker 2: Yep, yep, yep. And that program's the most successful program

450
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,080
Speaker 2: ever run in New South Wales and then they closed

451
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:25,280
Speaker 2: it in twenty ten.

452
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,199
Speaker 1: Right, I think that's something you're beating on about in

453
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:30,120
Speaker 1: one of your talks.

454
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,640
Speaker 2: Well, I spoke at the closing and I think the

455
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 2: Deputy Commissioner was there and that's the last time I

456
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:37,760
Speaker 2: opened a speech with my min number was there and

457
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,440
Speaker 2: I thought that speech at Parliament House was the same gravity.

458
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,720
Speaker 1: So that you're saying that it was one of the

459
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:45,400
Speaker 1: most successful programs, yep.

460
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,920
Speaker 2: The most It was shut down when twenty ten. Why

461
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,080
Speaker 2: why do you think that they said it was too expensive?

462
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 1: Okay, which is and it brings us right back to

463
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 1: where we started at the start with about the fiscal

464
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 1: side of keeping the keeping the person in cus Well.

465
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 2: It's insane, you know, as I spoke about in Parliament,

466
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 2: the police budget in New South Wales for the current

467
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 2: financial year is five point two billion dollars and the

468
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 2: corrective services budget is two point one b and so

469
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,800
Speaker 2: seven point three billion dollars. The whole budget for housing

470
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:17,920
Speaker 2: and homeless in New South Wales for the current year

471
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 2: is seven hundred and eighty million.

472
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 1: That's pretty startling when you break it down that.

473
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 2: You know, like it's and people it's insane. You know,

474
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 2: it really does come down to that. You know, when

475
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,840
Speaker 2: you in prison someone for a year and I'm sorry,

476
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 2: and this may upset people, but prison offers no value

477
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,400
Speaker 2: to the community. Now I'm not soft on crime. There

478
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 2: is people that fucking should never get out. We still

479
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 2: let them out. You know, if the guys in prison

480
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 2: got to them, you know, they wouldn't go and be there.

481
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 1: I know what you're saying, and prisoners i've spoken to

482
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,159
Speaker 1: about prison reform, all acknowledged is some people that shouldn't

483
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 1: get out. Not a society need to be protecting mate.

484
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 2: I was at the dentist at Golden when they brought

485
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 2: in Ivan Malatt you know from super Max in the

486
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,159
Speaker 2: orange suit, you know, and made the play and in

487
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 2: goldwhen you didn't speak to the guards after he left

488
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 2: because there was a chill in the air.

489
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I actually saw him down in Golden and.

490
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 2: I don't know if evils, but fuck, I don't know,

491
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 2: you know, what I mean. And you know in Golden

492
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 2: you know, I was in there with Glover, the Granny murderer,

493
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 2: and you know that yard. I think that there was

494
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 2: forty blakes and then that killed sixty five people. And

495
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 2: I look back now and think, funk, I was just

496
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,680
Speaker 2: a kid from the suburb smoking pot. How the fuck?

497
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 2: How do you get there? How am I? Why am I? Even? Yeah?

498
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,160
Speaker 2: It was you know when I look back, that there

499
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,399
Speaker 2: was you know, the change took a while, but it

500
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,880
Speaker 2: really was. You know, I thought, these people just kill

501
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 2: people for killing people, like that's rights.

502
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 1: And I think the message gets lost. And I think

503
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 1: when we've had Mindy Story speaking to she's been on

504
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 1: the podcast and a lot of people saw the pushback. Well,

505
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 1: you're trying to help prisoners, and they're not distinguishing between

506
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 1: the Ivan Malats or the Claude Robertson's. It's just they're

507
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 1: all prisoners. This is how they should be treated. What

508
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 1: you're saying, with this lived experience and now seven llion

509
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 1: years out, seventillion years clean, seventeen years doing good work

510
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 1: for society, you're saying, we've got to change the system.

511
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: We've got to look at things differently, break it down there.

512
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: A lot of people listen to the podcast. What messaging do.

513
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,160
Speaker 2: You want to go? You know, and I'm a very

514
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 2: pragmatic so the pure economics don't make sense, you know

515
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 2: what I mean? Seven point three billion dollars and that

516
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 2: doesn't even take anto the courts. If you had the

517
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 2: courts and all that in New South Wales alone, probably

518
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,679
Speaker 2: ten billion dollars a year. We've got a housing crisis,

519
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,199
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. You know, the Minister was

520
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 2: winging about the other day because you know, the government

521
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 2: they wanted an extra billion dollars over two years. We

522
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 2: could take half a billion from that tomorrow and build

523
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 2: as many houses as we needed. You know, people don't understand.

524
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 2: And it's our explayers. So we don't need any more money.

525
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 2: We need to spend it differently. And the thing is

526
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 2: why I say jail isn't of value to the communities

527
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 2: because and I've spoken at events. You know, I spoke

528
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 2: at an event up in Maribra, North queenslanda while, you know,

529
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 2: probably eight years ago, and you know, there was the

530
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 2: parents of their daughter had been murdered by the husband

531
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 2: and domestic violence, and there was a sister. Her sister

532
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 2: had been murdered by the boyfriend, and she was a

533
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 2: prison guard at the prison where the boyfriend was now incarcerated,

534
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 2: you know. And I spoke up there at the time

535
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 2: with the manager of the Rainbow Lodge, who was one

536
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,479
Speaker 2: of the few men trained in men's at a PhD

537
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 2: or a Masters in men's change behavior. And people think,

538
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 2: you know, like, if I do crime related to drugs

539
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 2: when I go to jail, they made me to do

540
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 2: drug courses. No, they didn't. Don't make you do anything

541
00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 2: if if people and you know, at the bad writer

542
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,400
Speaker 2: is seeing. When I was talking a couple of years ago,

543
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 2: a lady asked me this question either but the prison

544
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 2: populations increase because they're locking up all these people on

545
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 2: a vohs. And I said, I've been in prison with them,

546
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: and I said to you, you know what happens. They're

547
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 2: in there with all the other guys on AVOs, getting

548
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 2: more angry, more violent, and then they come out and

549
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 2: their next victim is oblivious to their history. So we're

550
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 2: actually making them worse because they're not they don't have

551
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 2: to do anything, Okay. So I think that my experience

552
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: when I've spoken to the community, they're shocked because they

553
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 2: just blindly believe that there was an expectation that if

554
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 2: you commit this crime, that when we incarcerate you, that

555
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 2: you're being offered or made to address or at least

556
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 2: look at. And that's not the reality.

557
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: Okay, So breaking down what you're saying, So I haven't

558
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 1: misunderstood that someone goes in for a crime of violence.

559
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: You assume if someone just repeatedly goes back in the

560
00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: prison because of violent actions, that when they're in print

561
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: and maybe there'll be someone there trying to address that.

562
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 2: That makes sense, doesn't it?

563
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: Like if someone, let's break it down, domestic violence at

564
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 1: such a topical subject, domestic violent offenders go in there,

565
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 1: you'd like to think something's being corrected in what causes

566
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: them to do that, rather than they've just been put

567
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 1: away cranky and as you said, sit there and get

568
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: quite angry and then come out, Well I'm back out, Now,

569
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: what are you going.

570
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 2: To do to me?

571
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: Drug addicts, like, how many people are in there with

572
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 1: the drug addictions that commit crimes to support their drug

573
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 1: addictions commit crimes because of the stupidity is you're demonstrated

574
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 1: that your mind plays when you're addicted to drugs. Are

575
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: they being treated for their drug problem? Are they they

576
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 1: getting help? They go into the core of the problem

577
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: that's for them in the prison. Now, when we break

578
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 1: it down like that, I'm with you. I think most

579
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 1: people will assume, well, a system that's spending that much money,

580
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: what are we invest in that. What you're saying here

581
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 1: with your T shirt that says jail is failing? Yep,

582
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,199
Speaker 1: what you're saying here is it's not working.

583
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 2: It's not. You just need to look at the numbers

584
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 2: and these are box are government numbers. You know, the

585
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 2: average prison sentence in New South Wales is eight months.

586
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 2: Eight months is the average sentence. So they're not ivan malats,

587
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 2: you know what I mean and anyone at the moment,

588
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 2: there's about twelve and a half thousand people in prison

589
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 2: today in New South Wales. Yet nineteen thousand people will

590
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 2: cycle through every year. Ten thousand of those will go

591
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 2: to homelessness.

592
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: Right go from prison to homelessness. Will break those figures

593
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: down again, because.

594
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 2: That's true, there's twelve about twelve and a half thousand

595
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 2: people in prison in prison today in New South Wales.

596
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 2: This year about nineteen thousand people will cycle through those

597
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 2: twelve and nine thousand beds and then ten thousand of

598
00:28:55,400 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 2: that nineteen thousand will be released to homelessness. So I

599
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 2: don't know.

600
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: I'm not, you know, a social commentator, but you have

601
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: people in jail and release them to homelessness. I'm thinking

602
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: there's probably good reason why these people are recycling back

603
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: into prison.

604
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 2: And not only were really and I know this because

605
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 2: I've met with Minister Jackson, the minister, and had this

606
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 2: conversation and you know, with her, you know they're being

607
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 2: dumped by corrections on her the homeless you know, So

608
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 2: the ministry with two point one billion dollars is dumping

609
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 2: the inmates because once they come out of prison, not

610
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 2: my responsibility, onto the homelessness budget, which has seven hundred

611
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 2: and eighty million dollars, and she is burning through money

612
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 2: because they give them three nights tenory accommodation and these

613
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 2: shith hostels in the city but are just crack dans. Yeah,

614
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: and like it's insane.

615
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: I've always had concerns about that because if they walk

616
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: out the prison gate, we've all got the image of

617
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: the person, yeah see you back here next week, and

618
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: walk out the gates and to lift to their own devices.

619
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: It's not that far from the truth.

620
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 2: It's not, it's not. You know, we're filming a four

621
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 2: corners documentary about our service at the moment, you know,

622
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 2: and you know one of the men who's going to

623
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 2: be the pivotal of that. You know, they filmed him

624
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 2: as he lodge. This is the Rainbow Lodge. So they

625
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 2: filmed him coming out of Coomba Prison a few weeks ago,

626
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 2: and he's been through Rainbow before, and you know, they

627
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 2: stopped and had to McDonald and had to chat with him,

628
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: you know, and the journalists asked him the question, you know,

629
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 2: what would be the perfect on our own? He would

630
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 2: say that I never leave Rainbow Lodge. Yeah, okay, you know,

631
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 2: because that's the other thing. So he came through us

632
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 2: previously and we housed him in a support in a

633
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: semi independence. He got a unit, but it was miles away.

634
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 2: It was down near La Peru's miles from US, no

635
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 2: public transport. He got so isolated, you know, it was

636
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 2: so sad. When we went back into the house, he

637
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 2: hadn't even said his furniture up and he just used

638
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 2: drugs and gone to prison.

639
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: Yeah that is at set, I don't you know. We

640
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: can all be tough guys and go, well, we go

641
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: back where he deserves it. It's just said, if you

642
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 1: isolate people, and if.

643
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 2: You met this guy, he's like someone's grandfather. Yeah, you know,

644
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 2: like you know, yes, you know he breaks into people's houses,

645
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 2: but you know, he generally tries not to hurt anyone.

646
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 2: And you know, he he takes drugs because he's in pain.

647
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 2: Because I think one of the things that people need

648
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 2: to understand about the people that end up in prison,

649
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 2: and this is why society and the community needs to

650
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 2: take responsibility for my experience is that ninety eight percent

651
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 2: of the guys that come through my service have been

652
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 2: removed from their as children put into a government service,

653
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 2: whether they then being sexually abused, and you know we're

654
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 2: talking rape, they've been raped as children. You know, I

655
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 2: have one guy, an Aboriginal guy who told them most

656
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 2: horrific story, gets taken off his mum, sent to you know,

657
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 2: an orphanage that's run by a church. The priest starts

658
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 2: raping him. His younger brother, who's a couple of years younger, comes,

659
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 2: So this kid, he's eight years older, he gets an agreement,

660
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 2: he negotiates with the priest that you can rape me

661
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 2: and I won't tell anyone as long as you don't

662
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 2: rape my brother. It breaks your heart, doesn't he I'm

663
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 2: nearly crying talking about it. He then, you know, the

664
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 2: trauma that is so much that he starts acting out,

665
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,479
Speaker 2: So they send him off to Minda, and the priest

666
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 2: starts raping the brother until he grows up starts acting out,

667
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 2: and then they send him off to Minda. Then they

668
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 2: both end up in jaw and the brother kills himself.

669
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 2: You know, so what this is?

670
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: Well, see stories like that, I think everyone just takes

671
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: a black and white attitude on things. When you hear

672
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: stories like that, You've got to have some humanity for

673
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: what's happening here.

674
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 2: You do, And like all I hear the same story.

675
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 2: And why I say that is because what we did

676
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 2: as a community is we let these children down and

677
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 2: to not take responsibility for we then criminalize their trauma

678
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 2: response behavior and send them to boys homes. And you

679
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 2: know that you dealt with the killers that it went

680
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 2: through all the boys hearts. They are a breathing ground. Yeah.

681
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: And I've also with the recent times of what we've

682
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: done here in time that I've spent in prison doing

683
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: that podcast series, got an appreciation of the amount of

684
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: people that A person that's a good friend of the podcast,

685
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: Russell Manster who sadly passed away. He made the point

686
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: that the amount of you want to reduce crime, look

687
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: at the trauma, these trauma, these people have suffered, been

688
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: victims of child sexual abuse, and how that plays out

689
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: in the future.

690
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 2: All of them, you know, all of them that come

691
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 2: across across my desk. You know, I think I think

692
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 2: I said it at at Parliament House. You know, seventy

693
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 2: eight point I think seventy eight point one percent of

694
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 2: the men that come through us had engagement in the

695
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 2: juvenile justice system. And I was saying that because they

696
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 2: just changed the bail laws and because there's two things

697
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 2: that the governments do.

698
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: You talk about the baile laws, because there's a lot

699
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: of anger in Parliament.

700
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 2: Well it's ridiculous because disproportionately going to affect First nations

701
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 2: people and at the moment, you know, my service we're

702
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 2: not a first nation's only service, but ninety eight percent

703
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: of the people in my service are First nation because

704
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 2: we've got a lot of funding to work with them.

705
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 2: You know, they make up thirty percent of the prison

706
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 2: population in New South Wales, but three percent of the

707
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 2: general population think of those figures like yeah, and it's disproportionate.

708
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 2: Even scarier, we incarcerate them at the highest So First

709
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 2: Nations people in New South Wales are incarcerated per hundred

710
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 2: thousand at the greatest rate in the world, four times

711
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,439
Speaker 2: what African Americans are incarcerated, the second most incarcerated people

712
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 2: in the world. It's nothing to be proud of. Well,

713
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 2: not only we should be as I said in part,

714
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,800
Speaker 2: we should be disgusted, like we've got a labor government

715
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 2: federally and a labor government state. They were telling us that,

716
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 2: you know, let's vote for a voice. Then they're bringing

717
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 2: in laws they're going to dispropose affect First Nations.

718
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 1: How do you see the bar laws doing that having

719
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: that effect.

720
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 2: I was having this debate with my friend last night

721
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 2: as an ex policeman. You may have it differently. The

722
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 2: insanity and it's like the decisions I made. The insanity

723
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 2: of government is you don't ask the police how to

724
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 2: stop crime. The police solve crime, that's their job, and

725
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 2: you don't ask corrections how to stop people coming to jail.

726
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 2: It's not their job. Their job is to keep people

727
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 2: in jail, and New South Wales do that really well,

728
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 2: like I said it, because you know Parliament, the Deputy

729
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 2: Commissioner was there and I'm not one of these you know,

730
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 2: fucking clothes. All the prisons defund the police. It's ridiculous.

731
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 2: You know, I've worked with the police really closely in

732
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 2: some of my jobs. And you know, as I said

733
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 2: to that, and I looked at the Deputy Commissioner, I said,

734
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 2: you know, we're in prison and a guy, so you're

735
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 2: having to go and deal with mental health because we

736
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,399
Speaker 2: don't have a social worker at the hospital and you're

737
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 2: not trained for it. And put all this unreal expectation

738
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 2: on our police officers and and on our prison guards.

739
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 2: That's not their job. And we do the same with

740
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 2: our school teachers, you know. And my thing is we

741
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,720
Speaker 2: do that because we waste all this money in prison

742
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:17,919
Speaker 2: in people. Because I think about it, if you take

743
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 2: it right back, because I believe there should be a

744
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 2: five year moratorium in New South Wales'm building any new

745
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: prisons if we are seriously serious about doing it different.

746
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 2: We don't need any more prisons. Get rid of all

747
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,800
Speaker 2: the private prisons. That's the other thing people don't realize

748
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 2: Australia incarcerates more people. So twenty five percent of our

749
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 2: prison population are incarcerating private prisons, highest in the world.

750
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 2: The US is second in seventeen percent.

751
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: I don't know anyone that speaks favorably of the principle

752
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: of privatizing prisons, running a prison for a profit. The

753
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: people that are in the prisons, I've never heard a

754
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: good thing said about private highest prisons.

755
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 2: Look, I think they just jumped on the wagon the

756
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 2: same as the right wing wagon, you know, when they

757
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 2: sold telecom and all those things, and said that the

758
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 2: you know, government bureaucuracy, you know, is it costs us money,

759
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 2: it's not efficient. And I think they just jumped on

760
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 2: the back of that and said that we can run

761
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 2: prisons more efficiently. But what we call them correction center,

762
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 2: so that the idea is we're correcting them. But who

763
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 2: runs a business for profit that puts yourself out of business?

764
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, well if her correction is private, you know, and

765
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,280
Speaker 1: do their job, well, they won't have a business.

766
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. Like So it's so insane. And what we've seen

767
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 2: in New South Wales and around the country when we're

768
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 2: with the more private prisons, all the bail laws have

769
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 2: come so.

770
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 1: In new can I just bring you back on that

771
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: point to the bar laws? So the new bar laws.

772
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,359
Speaker 1: When we were at Parliament was there was a lot

773
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 1: of huffing and puffing going on about specifically, why do

774
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,919
Speaker 1: you think that's not going to be a good thing.

775
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: You said that police shouldn't be saying how to stop.

776
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 2: C Well, you know, the police have two things, more

777
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 2: reasons to arrest people and harsher bail. Like they're the

778
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,720
Speaker 2: two tools you have as a really as a police officer,

779
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 2: more reasons to stop and arrest someone and more reasons

780
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,240
Speaker 2: to not let them out on bail.

781
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 1: So if I'm silver cop, there's claud You're you're annoying me,

782
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: you're out, you're doing something, You've broken the window or whatever,

783
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to arrest you. We're going to refuse. Refuse

784
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: Barlin an extreme and unlikely extreme. But you're you're saying

785
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 1: that something that, well, it makes it easier for us

786
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: police if people are in jail, because then we don't

787
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 1: have to look for them. So I acknowledge what you're saying,

788
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 1: like police shouldn't be involved in that it is easier.

789
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 2: But I have real life experience of this so my

790
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 2: previous job, I managed to use service over the Northern

791
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 2: Beaches and I met with the I think he was

792
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 2: the coman crime commander. Yeah, for the Northern Beach. I

793
00:38:55,520 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 2: love amazing guy. I think, you know, solution focused whatever

794
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 2: it takes, and community solutions, not like so I've had

795
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 2: lots of good ones. So there was at this stage

796
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 2: and people did know people when it's the Northern Beaches,

797
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 2: but the highest uptake of people in juvenile detention or

798
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 2: prison in New South Wales or from the Northern Beaches,

799
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 2: you know. So and there was lots of these kids,

800
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 2: you know. So I met with him and said, you know,

801
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:30,800
Speaker 2: this is a problem. What can we do? And he

802
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 2: said to me, you know, on any Saturday night on

803
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 2: the Northern Beaches at anyone time, I got five cars babysitting.

804
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 2: Because people don't realize, he said it as soon as

805
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 2: I become have an interaction with a child under sixteen,

806
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 2: I become speaking of and I can't let them go

807
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,320
Speaker 2: until I hand them over to a responsible person. So

808
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 2: he said, you know, I've got eight cars on the

809
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 2: beaches and five of them you know, so real crimes,

810
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 2: you know, the things that we want police to come

811
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 2: to they can't get to them because of these kids.

812
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 2: So you know, we came up with this scene called

813
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 2: Beach Reach where we went out with we had a

814
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 2: car with youth workers and they would call us up

815
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 2: and go, we've got these kids. Would ring mum, you know,

816
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 2: because the other thing we found was, you know, they

817
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 2: said to us, he ring mum and dad and on

818
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 2: the northern beaches they're smashed so they can't come and

819
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 2: pick up little Johnny, you know. So they were able

820
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 2: to the police, could you know, ring the parents and go, hey,

821
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:30,359
Speaker 2: tell them money's here the youth workers and I tell

822
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 2: you and this is why I say that police don't

823
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 2: solve crime. Because he was I can't think of his

824
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:37,840
Speaker 2: name out a Greek name, but he said to me,

825
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 2: he said, I know the moment I put a child

826
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 2: in a car, even to take them home to their parents,

827
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 2: I changed their relationship to the police instantly forever.

828
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 3: And I just went, wow, okay, well he's thinking, you

829
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 3: know what I mean.

830
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 2: So he said, if I can have you guys who

831
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 2: not only take them home so I don't have to

832
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 2: put them in a police car, you know, then we

833
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 2: have a therapeutic conversation. We can go, oh, what's going

834
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 2: on because while you're out, something's going on at Hount,

835
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 2: you know, and give them a card. And from that

836
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 2: guru that we went into chrome a high school, you know,

837
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 2: and we would say, look, where do you go high school?

838
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,399
Speaker 2: We're here on a Tuesday. You just tell the teacher

839
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 2: and we'll call you out in class no one or

840
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 2: no you know. So there is solutions. And because he

841
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 2: knew that if we stop these kids now, we're working

842
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 2: with these kids now, he's not dealing with them in

843
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,280
Speaker 2: five years when they're committing much more serious crimes.

844
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 1: Well, all the things that you're raising sort of I'll say,

845
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 1: thinking out of the square to a degree. It's not

846
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 1: that just okay, this happens, and just pushing against each

847
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,720
Speaker 1: other the whole time. It's thinking, if it's not working,

848
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 1: why aren't we changing it back to.

849
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 2: Your T shirt? Jailing's failing.

850
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, if the idea of putting people into jail correctional center,

851
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 1: as you say, it's a correctional center, so your behavior

852
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 1: is going to be corrected and then when you come

853
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 1: out into society, you're going to integrate.

854
00:41:58,080 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 2: Back into society better.

855
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 1: All the bad things about the prison system that I

856
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 1: hear from you, and when I talk to Mindy, that's

857
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 1: not what it's doing. And the high rate of recidivism,

858
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: it's ridiculous across the country.

859
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,439
Speaker 2: Within two years, most people back in prison. And they're

860
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 2: not all bad. You know. We've just been funded by

861
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 2: the Paul Ramsey Foundation to take how Wallamus First Nation's

862
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 2: programs into John Maroney Prison. And you know, Jason Hodges

863
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 2: is the governor out there, and he thinks outside the box.

864
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 2: You know, he's got all these guys on remand you know,

865
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 2: and he's got ramand d V romand addictions, Romanda aggressions,

866
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:42,399
Speaker 2: you know. And I was at a meeting with him

867
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 2: a little while about a couple of months ago, when

868
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 2: we're finalizing what we were going to do, and he said,

869
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 2: you know, we've had the first person on remand go

870
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,320
Speaker 2: back before the judge. And because we'd offered them a

871
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 2: different solution and programs, the judge didn't have to send

872
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 2: into prison. He could sentence a person to.

873
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,439
Speaker 1: Re yet, because when they're on romand they traditionally don't

874
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: get access, they don't get access to anything. That's something

875
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: that I hadn't even thought about, but one ex prisoner

876
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: raised it or some discussion on having I think it

877
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 1: was here that when you're on remand, and you can

878
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: be on remand for a very long time, you know,

879
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: the court system is not in the rush. You could

880
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: be there for years and you don't have access to

881
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 1: all these things.

882
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 2: Well, you know the scary thing is, you know today

883
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 2: this twelve and a half thousand people in prison. Today,

884
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 2: five thousand of them are on romand forty percent of

885
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 2: the population in prison. I didn't realize there's no presumption

886
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 2: of innocence. That's a fallacy because when we brought in

887
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 2: the private prisons, we had to change the bail laws

888
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 2: because we needed to keep them in business. And that's

889
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 2: what's happened. And we as a society we have figures.

890
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 2: Pass me again, you keep hitting me for these figures

891
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 2: on process. Today there is about twelve five hundred people

892
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 2: in prison and about five thousand of days are on RAN.

893
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 2: I think it's thirty nine point three percent of the

894
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,240
Speaker 2: people in prison in your South Wales the wrong remarks

895
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 2: and not found guilty of which.

896
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have thought that naively. I wouldn't have thought that.

897
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: Then I've been even brought it written down right, you've

898
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 1: got the notes. Okay, well it's proof.

899
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 2: No, no, this is available data to the governments everyone.

900
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 1: I'm not making that except what you're saying, but I'm

901
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,800
Speaker 1: saying from a CoP's point of view, career cop. I

902
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: never thought about it, like I thought it would have

903
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 1: been a much smaller percentage onen.

904
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 2: Remark when I and it's changed now because you've got

905
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 2: you know, John Maroney and people like justin hostage. So

906
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 2: you know, as I said, with the police, you know,

907
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 2: corrections is the same. There's some good people trying to

908
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 2: do things different and you know to allow us, you know,

909
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 2: and that's taken the Deputy Commissioner lose Grant's approval too.

910
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 2: So there is people.

911
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 1: Look, I was I did that breaking badness in mcquarie

912
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 1: Correctional Center. I was blown away by what I saw there,

913
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: Like good people in corrective services trying to make a difference.

914
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 2: No, there is, but you know you're talking about your

915
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:56,840
Speaker 2: yeah energy.

916
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a culture that you're trying to change, and.

917
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 2: It's really difficult. You know, you can highly unionize and

918
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 2: it's an old school thing, but there is, you know,

919
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 2: and where Rainbow with our Aboriginal partners, you know, Gammarata

920
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 2: in digital Resources in wimpitture to be able to the

921
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 2: chance to go out there and run this, and you know,

922
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 2: I had an amazing experience. I took Ivan Clark, who

923
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 2: runs our Healing the Warrior program from Wimpitcher. We took

924
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 2: out some guys who are going to run out there,

925
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 2: all ex criminals, all Aboriginal, and you know, we went

926
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 2: out to the jail and we came in and like,

927
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 2: because you have ideas, Like I have an idea, and

928
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,800
Speaker 2: I thought, this is the environment I've met Jason that

929
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 2: we're running some programs. You know, a lot of the

930
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 2: Wellemer guys out there. I knew that thirty percent of

931
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 2: the people in John Moroni or Aboriginal, you know. I

932
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 2: thought this is the place, you know, and I thought

933
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 2: if we it was actually the DPP through the wallhemer

934
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 2: program was the one who said to me because he

935
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 2: met Ivan and the programs and started to see the impact,

936
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 2: and he said, oh, this would be great. Jail like

937
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 2: the guy, they should be doing this before they even

938
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 2: come for bail. You know how they didn't get make sense. Yeah,

939
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 2: so you know, but I had this idea, but you

940
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 2: don't know what's going to work. And then I took

941
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 2: them out there to tour the jail and to be

942
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 2: shown around and make the impact. Like the guys, you know,

943
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 2: the conversations they had because three hours we toured the

944
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 2: jail for you know, three hours, and I remember I

945
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 2: Evan said to me, you know, three hours and we

946
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,800
Speaker 2: sat down with Jason Hodges, the governor out there for

947
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 2: half an hour, and you know, we had to go

948
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 2: and have lunch because the guys were so like I had.

949
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 2: You know, one guy, Paul Bird, who spent twenty years,

950
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 2: twenty five years, and Jay was in tears and you know,

951
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 2: and you can't bull as you said, you can't bullshit

952
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 2: these guys. These guys are tough guys. But you know,

953
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 2: Paul Bird's been like me nearly seventeen years. You know,

954
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 2: all these guys. You know Ivan his story, you know

955
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:55,320
Speaker 2: he was taken from his mother, institutionalized raped, you know.

956
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 2: Now he's one of the foremost speakers on Aboriginal men's

957
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 2: change programs and his thing is and this goes back

958
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 2: to why I say, especially with the prevalence of the

959
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:10,240
Speaker 2: conversations around domestic violence, women can't fix men and where's

960
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,839
Speaker 2: a community you need to accept that. And it's very

961
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 2: difficult and doing it like it's.

962
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,359
Speaker 1: And people will shout you down for that, going, oh, well,

963
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: maybe women should be the ones fixing men. But I

964
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 1: understand what you're saying.

965
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 2: Do we want justice or do we want revenge? That's

966
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 2: the question I asked. Obviously justice is, of course, because

967
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 2: if we want revenge, we end up with two lots

968
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:34,320
Speaker 2: of trauma. And as we've talked about those people, you know,

969
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 2: very few I don't know, it'd be less than half

970
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 2: a percent of people in prison in Australia don't get released.

971
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 1: So we you know, they're all coming out, and that's

972
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 1: that's that's the point that I know when I was

973
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: talking about what they were doing in Macquarie and I

974
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 1: was I was sort of thinking, Okay, people are going

975
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 1: to push back on a pushback on this, so we're

976
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:56,879
Speaker 1: getting soft. They're in jail for a reason, they've done

977
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,359
Speaker 1: something bad. They're in there for a reason making break

978
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 1: rocks and bread. Who cares their prisoners? And I was

979
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 1: worried that what I was am I going soft? I've

980
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 1: been out of the cops. Am I looking at this

981
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: through the wrong lens? I spoke to Ken Marslew, whose son.

982
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 2: Was murdered and.

983
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 1: A terrible situation robbery out of pizza hut and his

984
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 1: son was shot and killed. He was working there. Ken

985
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: was angry. Ken was angry when it happened. The people

986
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: were responsible for it were caught, and he was pushing,

987
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 1: let's get tough on crime, blah blah blah. He's changed

988
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: his tune now. And I'm sure you've crossed paths with

989
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: him over the years. He's a good friend of Mindy's.

990
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 2: And I spoke to him.

991
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: I said, Ken, your thought on it, your thoughts like

992
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,280
Speaker 1: you have the right to be angry. You are your

993
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 1: son has been murdered. You've felt the full pain of

994
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 1: what crime can do to a family. And he said,

995
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: I was angry. I was angry, and I'm still angry today.

996
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 1: But I'm not going to let the angers destroy me.

997
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: And I say this, Gary, I say this, but if

998
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 1: people are saying, well, you're just getting soft on crime.

999
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 1: If we're reducing crime, we're reducing victims. And agree the

1000
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 1: moment he said that, I'm thinking, yeah, Well, sometimes the

1001
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,439
Speaker 1: simplest solution is the most obvious, and that's what he's saying.

1002
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: We're not getting soft on crime, We're getting smart. On

1003
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:18,919
Speaker 1: crime and if you want to protect victims, reduce crime

1004
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: and you protect victims.

1005
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 2: So one hundreds I couldn't agree. No, And that's why

1006
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,839
Speaker 2: I say, do you want justice or do you want revenge? Yeah?

1007
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 2: You know, because I think we get them mixed up

1008
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 2: because you know, do you want to punish? And don't

1009
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 2: get me wrong, you know, victims of crime have every right,

1010
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 2: you know, and I imagine you know, the families the

1011
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 2: victims of crime, you know, have every right to be angry,

1012
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 2: to have all the normal human emotions. We're not saying that,

1013
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 2: you know, but do they you know, if you're and

1014
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 2: this is what I said to these people, you know,

1015
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 2: up in Mareva. I said, you know, your daughter's been murdered.

1016
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 2: There's nothing we can do to bring her back. But

1017
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 2: do you want that person to be released and put

1018
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 2: another family through what you have gone through? Or do

1019
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 2: you want to have a system where that person is

1020
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 2: held accountable but they're also supported to heal from their

1021
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 2: trauma and to address their behaviors. So at least when

1022
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:22,399
Speaker 2: they get out, we're given ourselves, the community, a much

1023
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 2: better chance that they're not going to perpetrate onto the

1024
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 2: next victim.

1025
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's hard. It's hard to think through that.

1026
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:30,840
Speaker 1: But when you break it down, you strip all the

1027
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: emotion away and all that it is the right thing

1028
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 1: to do.

1029
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,800
Speaker 2: I think it is. You know, I was reading this

1030
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 2: singing a little while ago. You know the the safest

1031
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 2: communities have the least amount of police. Yeah, well, you

1032
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 2: know what I mean. It makes and I remember a

1033
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 2: while ago.

1034
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,840
Speaker 1: Heard some informed police, some senior police, say well, we

1035
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 1: can't arrest our way out of the situation. No. I

1036
00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 1: like that attitude because sometimes the pub talking it will

1037
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 1: put more police when stayed elections.

1038
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 2: I was in the cops.

1039
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 1: I used to hate it when there was a law

1040
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 1: and order issue and what they'd say, well, we're going

1041
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 1: to increase the police. And I look, they announced before

1042
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: the election, we've increased five hundred new police. Nothing about

1043
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: the quality of the five hundred that they've signed up.

1044
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 1: We'll just give you numbers and then may cause problems

1045
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 1: for the rest of their career until they retire for

1046
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: some bizarre reason. That's not the way to reduce crime.

1047
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 1: I always thought I said this throughout my police career,

1048
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:31,879
Speaker 1: and people thought it was a little bit strange. When yeah,

1049
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 1: because people think a cop they're going to come up

1050
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: to me go, yeah, let's get more police, and I go,

1051
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 1: I would be putting the money. If we want to

1052
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: reduce crime into education, I thought that was the way

1053
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 1: to go.

1054
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 2: Well can you you know I started on it before.

1055
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 2: Can you imagine? You know, the average class now is

1056
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 2: twenty six twenty eight. If you reduced the spend on crime,

1057
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,280
Speaker 2: on police and prisons, and you put that into education

1058
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:59,919
Speaker 2: and the teacher's got twenty kids, you know, those kids

1059
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 2: that get more one on one, they don't slip through.

1060
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 2: They can get if we catch them there, you know,

1061
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 2: we can change the whole trajectory of And I'll tell

1062
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 2: you this. So I did some quick mathematics. So you know,

1063
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:17,799
Speaker 2: twenty years engaged in the criminal justice system ire at

1064
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 2: five million. That's the cost to the community that I

1065
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 2: cost five million, you know to send someone to treatments

1066
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 2: about twenty four thousand dollars. And you know, I'm laughing

1067
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 2: because when you break it down like that, wall, No,

1068
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:33,839
Speaker 2: it's insane. The only you know, I say to people,

1069
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:36,799
Speaker 2: the only bed I can guarantee you is a prison bed.

1070
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 2: I can't guarantee you tonight, are betting a mental health hospital.

1071
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 2: I can't even guarantee you a betting a hospital. I

1072
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 2: can't guarantee you a better at a domestic violence refuge.

1073
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 2: That's where we should be able to, isn't it? The

1074
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:53,320
Speaker 2: systems upside down? The only bed and again, and this

1075
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 2: is why, you know, I think it's easy for people

1076
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 2: to blame the police and corrections. The politicians make the

1077
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 2: laws that those two institutions implement.

1078
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:03,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, at the end of the day, I think there

1079
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 3: needs to be accountability.

1080
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 2: And there isn't you know, they just go, oh, you know,

1081
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 2: it's the police. So we've got all this sort of stuff.

1082
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:11,759
Speaker 2: But as you said, like you know, the war on

1083
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 2: drugs doesn't work, and now we've got a war on

1084
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 2: domestic violence, and it's like, have we not you know

1085
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 2: you heard how stupid I was. Yeah, it's you know

1086
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 2: that the insanity is doing the same thing and thinking

1087
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 2: we're going to get a different outcome, and we're doing

1088
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 2: you know, I say to people.

1089
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:28,800
Speaker 1: And like the war on domestic violence, and it's a

1090
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 1: complex one, that it's an emotional one, that it's scary

1091
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:34,759
Speaker 1: what's happened, and we see the results of it. Yep,

1092
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 1: But let's break you down what we're saying here choosing

1093
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 1: their words carefully. Okay, we're going to get tough on

1094
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 1: domestic violence. You're you're at home, you say something, the

1095
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: cops are going to come and lock you up. They're

1096
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: going to get more powers for domestic violence. Lock you up,

1097
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:52,760
Speaker 1: you get put in the cell. You're an angry person.

1098
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 1: Nothing to address what's caused the anger. You're just getting

1099
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:57,839
Speaker 1: more and more angry. And then you get let out.

1100
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 2: And have you changed? No, you haven't changed.

1101
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 3: You're just angry.

1102
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 2: So let's address the problem. And there's no we've taken

1103
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 2: away the discretionary power of our police and our court.

1104
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:13,839
Speaker 2: You know, I was on the board at Rainbow Lodge

1105
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 2: for eight years and I sat on there with a

1106
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 2: great man. He's no longer here, Judge Joe Moore. And

1107
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 2: you know he said to me, you know two proud things,

1108
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:22,800
Speaker 2: claud You know I'm the most appealed judge in the

1109
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 2: district Court. He said, I'm proud of that. And he

1110
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 2: said the new South Wales Crime Act clearly states that

1111
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,280
Speaker 2: in prisonment is the last option, not the first, okay,

1112
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:35,240
Speaker 2: And so held on to that. Yeah, And he also

1113
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 2: said to me, as a judge, he said, you know

1114
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 2: The problem is with mandatory sentencing. He says, when the

1115
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 2: guy comes to me first time, he needs to go

1116
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:44,879
Speaker 2: to jail. When he comes the second time, he needs

1117
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 2: but the third time, I go, ah, I can't send

1118
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 2: him to rehab because he's three times he's mandatory got

1119
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 2: to go to jail. I lose the disc you know,

1120
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 2: he said, I've spent my life practicing in learning law,

1121
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 2: like I'm a judge there.

1122
00:54:58,960 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 1: You know.

1123
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 2: We put them in these positions because they're trusted, so

1124
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 2: we need to give them the discretionary power to make

1125
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 2: the decisions. I look, I agree with you.

1126
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 1: I never and a career as a policeman locking people up.

1127
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 1: I never liked that mandatory sentencing. No, to me, it

1128
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,239
Speaker 1: didn't fit because every crime I did there was some

1129
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 1: different factor.

1130
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 2: There's a nuance. Yeah, we work with people whether they're

1131
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:24,359
Speaker 2: good or bad. Yeah, that's right.

1132
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:27,680
Speaker 1: But the mandatory sentence that never I always and I

1133
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,479
Speaker 1: know the pub test is people going, yeah, of course

1134
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:32,239
Speaker 1: they should get ten years electioneering.

1135
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not based on evidence or and it doesn't

1136
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 2: help anyone, you know. So that two things with the police.

1137
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 2: When I was doing that thing on the Northern Beaches,

1138
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 2: I watched you know, and don't get me wrong, like anything,

1139
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:50,800
Speaker 2: there's bad police, but I watched these police officers stabbed

1140
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 2: on the body camp footage at Central Station and as

1141
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 2: I was watching it, I'm going I would have shot

1142
00:55:57,160 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 2: the guy three times. And the officer didn't and he

1143
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 2: got that thankfully didn't die. But you know what I thought,

1144
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 2: fucking like you know, and it's that thing you hear

1145
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 2: the bad stuff, but you don't hear the good stuff.

1146
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:13,400
Speaker 2: I'll tell you a great story. So one of the

1147
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:18,760
Speaker 2: things we do is we transport Aboriginal people from treatment

1148
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 2: centers around New South Wales from custody to treatment center

1149
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 2: and we deal with our Aboriginal peer workers on that.

1150
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 2: So one of my Aboriginal peer workers who's lived experience,

1151
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 2: good old Raymond Salad, who finished his parole just the

1152
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 2: other day. He did the Welcome to country at Parliament.

1153
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 2: So he's transporting this guy from I think he was

1154
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:41,320
Speaker 2: going from Kemsi Mid Northcote prison to Iran, a haven

1155
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 2: outside Wolgat forty k fifty k's out of whild but

1156
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 2: he hits a wild pig. There's no reception out there.

1157
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 2: The guides on Supreme Court Baale has to be at

1158
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 2: this treatment center. He knows because it's his country, he's

1159
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 2: been out there. He goes, fuck, I've got to ring

1160
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:00,479
Speaker 2: the police. No one else is coming in the middle

1161
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 2: of nowhere. He rings. What they gets put through the

1162
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:06,320
Speaker 2: sergeant at WOLGA tells in the situation, they send a

1163
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:09,920
Speaker 2: car out, they pick him up. He explains, you know,

1164
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 2: this guy's like six hours out of jail. Shouldn't instagram,

1165
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 2: and Raymond's going nonah like this like when they come,

1166
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 2: they're coming to help. They don't worry. This is you know,

1167
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 2: and they the sergeant organized, they picked him up and

1168
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 2: they drove them to that rehab. So he got to

1169
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 2: that rehab within his bail and that that that action

1170
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 2: changes the view or you know, I don't I shouldn't

1171
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 2: say this, but I will. Raymond called me the other day,

1172
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 2: I don't know the van our workban had run out.

1173
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 2: He had five guys. He was one day off finish

1174
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 2: in his parole. He had five six Aboriginal man in

1175
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 2: a brand new car. I'm sorry, but there is racial profile.

1176
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 2: There wasn't this time. So it came up and you know,

1177
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:56,760
Speaker 2: the cameras read the number plates that came up. There

1178
00:57:56,840 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 2: was no regio. He pulled Raymond over. Raymond explained what

1179
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 2: he was doing, and he said, I'll ring my boss

1180
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 2: and I spoke to him and I don't know where,

1181
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 2: and he didn't find us or anything. And I was

1182
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 2: able to get on within fifteen minutes and get it registered. Now,

1183
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 2: I don't know whether he made a conscious decision or not,

1184
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 2: but those guys in that car, their experience of policing

1185
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 2: isn't that you know, it's the same as the guy

1186
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 2: who come and picked up the guys, you know at

1187
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 2: the pig. Yeah, but the impact they have, like the

1188
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:27,720
Speaker 2: guys come back and they're talking about, oh he didn't

1189
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 2: he was a cool cop. Well he saw you know,

1190
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 2: Raymond said, this is what we're doing. The car's registered here.

1191
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 2: And you know, I didn't have that conversation, but I

1192
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:38,520
Speaker 2: imagine he went, fuck, this is I need to do

1193
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 2: the right thing. That's a discretionary. Yeah, a good policing.

1194
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 1: You need discretionary. If you don't, the problems can go bad. Look,

1195
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 1: I'm conscious of the time. We are running out of time.

1196
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 1: I'm really enjoying the discussion. I just want you to

1197
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 1: give me a quick rundown on Rainbow Lodge because you're

1198
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:56,760
Speaker 1: a manager there and they've been doing good work and

1199
00:58:56,840 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 1: good work for a long time.

1200
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 2: So yep, perhaps so Rainbow Lodge, it's this is our

1201
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 2: sixtieth year. So we are now the longest continuous running

1202
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 2: halfway house in the world. There was one in Canada,

1203
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:11,040
Speaker 2: unfortunately he didn't survive COVID, so we've run. We've been

1204
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:13,240
Speaker 2: open twenty four hours a day for sixty years. So

1205
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 2: we work with men leaving a term of incarceration. Currently

1206
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 2: we have we're partnered in a program called the Wallamullist

1207
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 2: Trial in the district called a New South Wales is

1208
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:29,960
Speaker 2: like a circle sentencing type thing where because most of

1209
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 2: the diversionary programs have been in the lower court, so

1210
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 2: this is the first one for more serious district offenses.

1211
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 2: And this is another you know, Justice Jaya had this

1212
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:42,040
Speaker 2: vision because this is another thing. Our laws have got

1213
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 2: more punitive, so these guys are being charged in indictable

1214
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 2: so they don't ever get a chance for merit drug court,

1215
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. So we're part of that.

1216
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:54,920
Speaker 2: So you know, we've got some two beds there, so

1217
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:58,680
Speaker 2: we have eight beds funded and there's some figures here.

1218
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 2: This I'm the largest provider of post incarceration support for

1219
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 2: men in New South Wales. And I have eight beds

1220
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:09,120
Speaker 2: for thirty two places for the nineteen thousand people leaving.

1221
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 2: It's not much, is it.

1222
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 1: No?

1223
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 2: No, And I have another two beds funded by the

1224
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 2: Paul Ramsey Foundation for First Nations men engaged in the

1225
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:20,120
Speaker 2: Wallomer program and they funded.

1226
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 1: Us, and this is a place where they get released

1227
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:24,440
Speaker 1: from prison they can go.

1228
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 2: They come and we run programs and drug and alcohol

1229
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 2: living skills. In the last year and a half, you know,

1230
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 2: we've gone so three years ago we were at forty

1231
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:36,320
Speaker 2: percent First Nations. Last year we were sixty eight. Currently

1232
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:39,440
Speaker 2: we're ninety seven point one. Because of the programs, we've

1233
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 2: been able to use this funding to bring Ivan clark

1234
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 2: in and Gamma Rada, people like Raymond, you know, lived

1235
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 2: experienced guys. You know, one of the guys who's come

1236
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 2: through the well and my list now does peer work.

1237
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:52,959
Speaker 2: So when we go and pick up the Wallemer guys

1238
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 2: and transport and there's an Aboriginal.

1239
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 3: Guy who's on it, and how much difference that makes.

1240
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 2: You the pride in him, so you know, rainbow, you know,

1241
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 2: but we need half a dozen rainbows you know, and

1242
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 2: there's you know, as Mindy said, you know, I think

1243
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 2: in her report there's a list of one hundred services

1244
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:12,840
Speaker 2: doing great work. So you know, if there's anything I

1245
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:15,880
Speaker 2: have to say is the money we spend now is wasted.

1246
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 2: We don't need any more data, research or anything. We

1247
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 2: know what works, we know what doesn't work. What we need,

1248
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:24,320
Speaker 2: as I said in Parliament, is the political will to

1249
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:24,960
Speaker 2: implement it.

1250
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:28,600
Speaker 1: Okay, that's that's a very important message, isn't it It

1251
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:30,480
Speaker 1: is I've got all the research has been.

1252
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 2: Done, we know what the solution is. Yeah, we don't

1253
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 2: need any more committees, no more raw commissions. You know,

1254
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 2: we actually need the political will to go. We're not

1255
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 2: going to build any more prisons, as I said at

1256
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 2: Parliament for five years, We're going to divert that funding

1257
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:47,200
Speaker 2: into diversionary programs pre and post and as I said

1258
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:49,960
Speaker 2: in parliament, if in five years it doesn't work, lock

1259
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 2: them up, and you know, I'll go and do something else.

1260
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:55,720
Speaker 1: Well what what a novel idea crack down on law

1261
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 1: and order and go down that path instead of increasing jails,

1262
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:03,440
Speaker 1: increasing police and making mandatory sentencing. Look at it a

1263
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:06,080
Speaker 1: little bit differently, Yeah, if it hasn't worked. Let's change it.

1264
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:09,040
Speaker 2: And clear thing because I never answered your question about

1265
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:11,280
Speaker 2: the new bail laws because I don't think what people understand.

1266
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 2: So that the new bail laws were based on some

1267
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 2: of the rural communities a rise in crime, but they

1268
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 2: were specific to breaking enters and car theft.

1269
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 1: Okay, so it's going to catch a certain yeah, but

1270
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:26,080
Speaker 1: we know.

1271
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:29,320
Speaker 2: And this is the outrage, that it's going to disproportionately

1272
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 2: affect First Nations because they make up about eighty percent

1273
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 2: of the juvenile country town especially in the country towns

1274
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:39,520
Speaker 2: and in the juvenile centers. And we know that the

1275
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:43,240
Speaker 2: evidence tells us that putting people into custody, as I said,

1276
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:45,720
Speaker 2: seventy eight point one percent of the men in my service,

1277
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:49,560
Speaker 2: we're all in the juvenile justice system. We know it's

1278
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 2: the apprenticeship and sets them up for a lifetime of

1279
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 2: our our incarceration. But it's like and it's politics for

1280
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:02,800
Speaker 2: re election. It's it's politics of fear. The premiere made

1281
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:05,720
Speaker 2: that this isn't based on fear because a part of

1282
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:08,040
Speaker 2: the community was outraised and it was on you know,

1283
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:10,520
Speaker 2: a current affair or you know one of those shock

1284
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 2: jocks who you want to talk about the fear and

1285
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 2: all that, but it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't

1286
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 2: It doesn't solve the problem.

1287
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 1: It's a shame we can't look at it as bipartisan

1288
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:25,400
Speaker 1: And yeah, it would make sense here, we're all on

1289
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:25,840
Speaker 1: board this.

1290
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:29,920
Speaker 2: Do we want safer communities? It is a community. And

1291
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 2: you know you've been in the police and you know

1292
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:36,280
Speaker 2: the decent police I speak to go. You know, we

1293
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 2: can't arrest our way out of drugs or domestic Like

1294
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:40,920
Speaker 2: it's a community solution.

1295
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:44,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I like it when police look at it

1296
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:48,120
Speaker 1: that way. There's other other ways of dealing with things. Look,

1297
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 1: I just want to say thanks so much for what

1298
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:55,320
Speaker 1: you've done. Congratulation on how you've turned your life around. Like, yeah,

1299
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:58,800
Speaker 1: I sit here and laugh at some of your life

1300
01:03:58,880 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 1: decisions in let's call it part part one. Yeah, yeah,

1301
01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 1: they are very concerning Part one. Who's some of the

1302
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:10,640
Speaker 1: decisions you make? But I think you've articulated very well

1303
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 1: on what happens when you get in the system. You

1304
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:18,720
Speaker 1: become a drug addict, you become dependent, you make stupid decisions.

1305
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:22,040
Speaker 1: But what I find most interesting about our chat is

1306
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:24,920
Speaker 1: the way that you're looking at solutions to problems problems

1307
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 1: that affect all of us. It's always in our face, Laura,

1308
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 1: and all the crime. Everything's in our face about that money, homelessness,

1309
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:34,680
Speaker 1: that type of thing. And you're looking at solutions. And

1310
01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:37,200
Speaker 1: I just like to sum up the bit as well

1311
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:39,760
Speaker 1: that you're saying, we don't need to review this again,

1312
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:41,960
Speaker 1: we don't need more committees, we don't need that.

1313
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:45,280
Speaker 2: We know what the solution is. Let's have the balls

1314
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 2: to do it exactly. Yeah, yeah, okay, good pleasure. Thanks,

1315
01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:56,480
Speaker 2: thanks very much. Well. Claude's an interesting character.

1316
01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:59,120
Speaker 1: It really gave an insight into what goes through the

1317
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:02,280
Speaker 1: mind of an attic and the chaos of his life,

1318
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 1: the decisions that he was making. Look, he comes across

1319
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:08,720
Speaker 1: as a nice person, but he's just making ridiculous decisions

1320
01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:11,440
Speaker 1: and how driven he was because of his drug addiction.

1321
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 1: I think some of the points he's made are very worthwhile.