WEBVTT - Jeremy Allen White on setting boundaries with Bruce Springsteen

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<v Speaker 1>Andrew. Have you seen the movie?

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<v Speaker 2>I got an exclusive screening in They open a whole

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<v Speaker 2>cinema just for me. Oh cool. That must have been weird,

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<v Speaker 2>very weird. Three hundred seats and me in the center

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<v Speaker 2>in the dark room.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you get popcorn?

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<v Speaker 2>They saw him out a coffee and popcorn and they

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<v Speaker 2>call it work.

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<v Speaker 1>From the Australian. This is the weekend edition of The Front.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Claire Harvey. There's a new movie out in cinemas,

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<v Speaker 1>a biopic of Bruce Springsteen called Springsteen Deliver Me from Nowhere.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's not about the Boss brancing around on stage

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<v Speaker 1>in tight jeans and a half buttoned cowboy shirt, sweating

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<v Speaker 1>and belting out one of his anthems like Born in

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<v Speaker 1>the USA. It's about Springsteen's sad, bastard pace back in

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<v Speaker 1>the early nineteen eighties, when he retreated to a bedroom

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<v Speaker 1>and wrote the album Nebraska, Ten beautiful songs, all complete downers.

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<v Speaker 1>For all the reasons, Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska is seen as

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<v Speaker 1>modern and relevant today, exploring ideas of isolation, loneliness, fatalism,

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<v Speaker 1>and hopelessness. All those very qualities made the album so

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<v Speaker 1>unorthodox and risky in nineteen eighty two, and that's not

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<v Speaker 1>even factoring in the fact Springsteen produced the album himself,

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<v Speaker 1>not in a commercial studio, but at home with a

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<v Speaker 1>four track recorder and a mental breakdown on the way.

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<v Speaker 1>Today I'm joined by the Australians National music writer Andrew McMillan.

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<v Speaker 1>His feature on the movie is live now at the

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<v Speaker 1>Australians newly launched Culture section. Go do the Australian dot

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<v Speaker 1>com dot u slash culture, or in the Australians app

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<v Speaker 1>tap the Culture tab at the top. It's full of

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<v Speaker 1>the very latest in visual art, music, film, TV, entertainment

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<v Speaker 1>and much more. Here's Jeremy ellen White speaking to Andrew McMillan.

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<v Speaker 2>What did you find were your most valuable resources when

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<v Speaker 2>preparing for the role.

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<v Speaker 3>Really, the most helpful was having access to Bruce and

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<v Speaker 3>really trying to understand on a human level, forget the

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<v Speaker 3>rock star, what was going on with him during this period.

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<v Speaker 3>And I'm very grateful to Bruce for being immediately, so

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<v Speaker 3>forthcoming and honest. It allowed me as an actor and

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<v Speaker 3>to start to draw connections and tethers, and then in

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<v Speaker 3>getting to know Bruce, I was able to find things

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<v Speaker 3>within him that I knew about myself that I could

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<v Speaker 3>kind of decide to expand on or grin to surface.

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<v Speaker 3>Will they blew a chicken Man and Philly last night?

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<v Speaker 2>Now they blew up his house?

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<v Speaker 1>To Andrew, we're talking today about an album that Bruce

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<v Speaker 1>Bringsteen super fans no one loved. The rest of us

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<v Speaker 1>who have a more casual relationship with the Boss might

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<v Speaker 1>not know about Nebraska. What's Nebraska all about? And where

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<v Speaker 1>did it come in Bruce Bringsteen's life.

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<v Speaker 2>Nebraska is an album that Bruce created not knowing he

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<v Speaker 2>was making an album. He finished the river and the

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<v Speaker 2>touring behind that album, playing to arenas full of fans,

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<v Speaker 2>big rock and roll shows with the East Street Band,

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<v Speaker 2>and then, rather than continuing on in that vein of

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<v Speaker 2>making upbeat rock and roll songs, he took himself away

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<v Speaker 2>to a rented ranch house in New Jersey by himself,

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<v Speaker 2>got a TIAC four track recorder, and he started creating

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<v Speaker 2>what he thought were demo songs for his next album potentially,

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<v Speaker 2>But in the process of writing and recording this album,

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<v Speaker 2>he came up with the quietest, darkest set of songs

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<v Speaker 2>that he had released certainly to that point in time.

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<v Speaker 2>In nineteen eighty two and still in twenty twenty five.

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<v Speaker 2>It's probably the case.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a very sad version of Bruce Bringsteen who we

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<v Speaker 1>hear on this album, and there are stories that he

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<v Speaker 1>tells in his songs that seem almost childlike to me.

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<v Speaker 1>You know. There's a song about a police officer with

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<v Speaker 1>a wayward brother who has to try and help his

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<v Speaker 1>brother avoid going to jail. Stories of heartbreak, and some

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<v Speaker 1>very powerful stories about being an outsider looking in. Mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>on the Hill is about a kid with his dad

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<v Speaker 1>looking up at the town's big grand house.

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<v Speaker 3>Who's a please sadsw.

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<v Speaker 1>That feels autobiographical, was it?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Nebraska is a blending of fact and fiction. It's

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<v Speaker 2>taken from the pages of Bruce's childhood, but he was

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<v Speaker 2>also researching and reading about things that had happened in

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<v Speaker 2>real time in nineteen eighty two and also in the

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<v Speaker 2>recent past, things like a serial killer named Charles Starkweather

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<v Speaker 2>who who had killed a bunch of people in Nebraska,

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<v Speaker 2>and when he was later caught, he couldn't give any

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<v Speaker 2>kind of reasonable explanation for why he had done that.

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<v Speaker 2>And Bruce, as a songwriter, found that fascinating and decided

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<v Speaker 2>to write a song from the perspective of that serial killer.

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<v Speaker 2>But Bruce himself much later in his twenty sixteen book

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<v Speaker 2>Worn to Run, he reflected on Nebraska and described it

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<v Speaker 2>as an unknowing meditation on my childhood and its mysteries,

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<v Speaker 2>and he wanted the songs to feel like awaking dream

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<v Speaker 2>and move like poetry. So it's a set of songs

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<v Speaker 2>which is rooted in reality, slightly fictionalized, but it's this

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<v Speaker 2>blend between his distant past, trying to understand his childhood,

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<v Speaker 2>trying to understand his really distant aloof father, and trying

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<v Speaker 2>to come to terms with the man he was then

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<v Speaker 2>in his early thirties.

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<v Speaker 3>I went directing to feel Different.

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<v Speaker 2>League Law. Once you have your first top ten, they

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<v Speaker 2>worked three for the next.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, we've never been about singles, but the whole story

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<v Speaker 3>just trying to break the little new grail.

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<v Speaker 1>We got a little time, just not a lot. The

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<v Speaker 1>creation of this album is now the subject of a

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<v Speaker 1>movie starring Jeremy Allen White as Bruce Bringsteen. Why did

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<v Speaker 1>the filmmakers choose this part of Bruce Bringsteen's life to

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<v Speaker 1>bring to the big screen.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's an adaptation of a great book called Deliver

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<v Speaker 2>Me from Nowhere by Warren Zan's and it's an unusual

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<v Speaker 2>music biography because it's based on a few months or

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<v Speaker 2>perhaps at most a year in an artist's life, and

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<v Speaker 2>that is the time surrounding the recording and later release

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<v Speaker 2>of Nebraska and the one that came next was Born

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<v Speaker 2>in the USA, his biggest collection of stadium filling hits.

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<v Speaker 2>The author Warren Zanes wanted to understand how that happened,

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<v Speaker 2>and there was a section Bruce Is Born to Run

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<v Speaker 2>sixteen memoir where Bruce talked about a mental breakdown that

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<v Speaker 2>happened immediately after the recording of Nebraska, and that was

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<v Speaker 2>the first time that Bruce had described that to anyone,

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<v Speaker 2>and he kind of covered in a few pages and

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<v Speaker 2>then moved on. But Warren Zane's the author of Deliver

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<v Speaker 2>Me from Nowhere, I wanted to know more so with

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<v Speaker 2>Bruce's corporation, he went deep on the time of his

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<v Speaker 2>life and what led to that mental breakdown. And then

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<v Speaker 2>the reason why it's ending up on screen is because

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<v Speaker 2>a writer director named Scott Cooper read Warren Zane's book

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<v Speaker 2>and thought, I need to make a movie based on this.

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<v Speaker 2>It was so gripping and so unusual, such a quiet

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<v Speaker 2>period of withdrawal one of the world's most known artists. Calm,

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<v Speaker 2>what's up?

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<v Speaker 1>You redid everything?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well I subtracted and I pushed.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, you want to spell out from me what exactly

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<v Speaker 1>you subtracted and what exactly you pushed.

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<v Speaker 2>We're going to get a star.

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<v Speaker 1>He cast Jeremy Allen White, who viewers would know as

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<v Speaker 1>Chef Kami from The Bear, as Bruce Springsteen. They're kind

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<v Speaker 1>of the same age. They physically look quite similar.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course.

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<v Speaker 1>Jeremy Allen White is ridiculously handsome, perhaps more handsome than

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<v Speaker 1>even Bruce Springsteen, but he comes across in his public

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<v Speaker 1>persona as a pretty soulful, kind of sensitive guy. What

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<v Speaker 1>were your impressions of Jeremy Allen White when you interviewed

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<v Speaker 1>him for The Australian.

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<v Speaker 2>A humble guy, for sure. I love The Bear. I've

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<v Speaker 2>been watching that show since it came out. But to

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<v Speaker 2>see him embody a big star like Bruce, that's a

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<v Speaker 2>major leap, And as Jeremy described it to me, it's

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<v Speaker 2>probably something he could not have done if he had

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<v Speaker 2>not previously played a real person, which he did in

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<v Speaker 2>the twenty twenty three film The Iron Claw.

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<v Speaker 3>Perry, I want you to join your brothers in the rack. Yes,

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<v Speaker 3>so I love that.

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<v Speaker 2>We all he plays a professional wrestler and a real

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<v Speaker 2>person Kerry Yvonne Eric. That gave him the confidence to

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<v Speaker 2>be able to try something that for any act would

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<v Speaker 2>be a much bigger leap, which is to play one

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<v Speaker 2>of the world's most recognizable rock stars.

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<v Speaker 1>Ever, it's interesting, isn't it when an actor is trying

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<v Speaker 1>to represent a real life person, especially in someone who

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<v Speaker 1>we know very well. You know, how much do you

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<v Speaker 1>try and kind of mimic their characteristics and adopt their

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<v Speaker 1>accent or interpret it your own way. Bruce Springsteen was

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<v Speaker 1>actually on set for a lot of the filming of

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<v Speaker 1>this movie. How did Jeremy Allen White deal with that?

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<v Speaker 2>How would anybody deal with that? Think about it. If

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<v Speaker 2>you're Jeremy trying to portray Bruce, while Bruce himself is

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<v Speaker 2>watching your every move on the camera, monitorsays, what a

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<v Speaker 2>freaky thing to try and achieve. So Jeremy described to

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<v Speaker 2>me that in that first week of filming, where Bruce

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<v Speaker 2>and his longtime manager John Landau was sitting outside watching,

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<v Speaker 2>he had to eventually go and ask Bruce, hey, can

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<v Speaker 2>you give me a bit of space here, just so

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<v Speaker 2>I can get my sea legs and get a feel

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<v Speaker 2>for how to do this thing, which Bruce understood, and

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<v Speaker 2>he went away for some time, but oddly he kept

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<v Speaker 2>coming back to the set. He wanted to be there.

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<v Speaker 2>He wanted to see them make it, which is a

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<v Speaker 2>really interesting decision for a now seventy six year old

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<v Speaker 2>man to make. To watch this really troubled, uncertain, pretty

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<v Speaker 2>dark period of his life where he physically isolated himself.

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<v Speaker 2>Bruce wanted to see that done again from a distance.

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<v Speaker 2>And I guess with all the experience and knowledge and

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<v Speaker 2>wisdom that he's gained since those.

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<v Speaker 1>Years, society has changed a lot in the forty years

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<v Speaker 1>since Bruce Bringsteen went through that. You know, in twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty five, it's pretty normal to talk about mental distress

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<v Speaker 1>or struggling with your emotions. That was pretty taboo in

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<v Speaker 1>the eighties. And I guess, especially if you're a rock star,

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<v Speaker 1>how do you think they've brought that to life, And

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<v Speaker 1>what was it like to recreate that for Jeremale and White.

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<v Speaker 2>You're right, Bruce had a breakdown which led to him

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<v Speaker 2>seeking professional help, which was therapy. I think that Bruce

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<v Speaker 2>was himself. I don't know if embarrassed is the right word,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'm sure about revealing that part of himself. He

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<v Speaker 2>described to Warren zanes the author of Delivering Me from Nowhere,

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<v Speaker 2>that he spent the first few years of his therapy

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<v Speaker 2>sneaking in and out of visiting the person who he

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<v Speaker 2>had chosen to speak to. So the question is, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>how do you show that on screen without it being

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<v Speaker 2>dull or boring or uninteresting. It requires a magnetic actor,

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<v Speaker 2>which they certainly have in Jeremy, but it requires a

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<v Speaker 2>really smart script, which Scott Cooper, the director wrote, based

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<v Speaker 2>on Warren Zaneser's a book.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up. So can Jeremy Allen White convincingly channel the boss.

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<v Speaker 2>A man stand or did well?

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<v Speaker 1>How if there was ever a time when it was

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<v Speaker 1>okay for actors to lip sync or to pretend to

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<v Speaker 1>be playing instruments if they're doing a movie about a musician,

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<v Speaker 1>it seems like it's over now. Timothy Shallamy sang and

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<v Speaker 1>played as Bob Dylan in the biopic that he made

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of years ago. Jeremy Allen White learned to

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<v Speaker 1>play the guitar and sang Bruce Bringsteen's songs in character

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<v Speaker 1>for this movie. How do you think he pulled it off?

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<v Speaker 1>And what do you think about that choice of instead

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<v Speaker 1>of using the original songs and lip syncing along to them,

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<v Speaker 1>recreating them like that, you know, with a whole new voice.

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<v Speaker 2>It's doing the whole thing on hardbone right. Easy mode

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<v Speaker 2>would be to just like you said, lip sync and

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<v Speaker 2>to fudge it and to have someone else's hands picking

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<v Speaker 2>those strings and playing those notes. But Jeremy, as a

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<v Speaker 2>committed actor, he started this project as a non musician.

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<v Speaker 2>He had never sung, nor played guitar, nor played harmonica.

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<v Speaker 2>He had to learn how to do those three things

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<v Speaker 2>in a pretty short space of time in order to

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<v Speaker 2>portray this very stark and vulnerable set of songs. There's

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<v Speaker 2>no hiding in Nebraska. The recordings themselves are bedroom recordings.

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<v Speaker 2>They're imperfect, and that is part of the charm and

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<v Speaker 2>appeal for fans who loved that work. But Jeremy, he

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<v Speaker 2>tasked himself with replicating exactly what Bruce did, and he

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<v Speaker 2>did such a good job that during the recording sessions,

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<v Speaker 2>Bruce himself said that he couldn't tell the difference between

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<v Speaker 2>Jeremy and he. So that shows you the dedication that

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<v Speaker 2>this man has taken to portraying Springsteen on film, And

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<v Speaker 2>to go even further, he recorded those songs professionally at

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<v Speaker 2>RCA Studios in Nashville, and Jeremy Allen White's recordings of

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<v Speaker 2>Bruce Springsteen's songs are going to be released for the

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<v Speaker 2>public to hear, so it's going to exist as an

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<v Speaker 2>audio document as well his performance on screen. I think

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<v Speaker 2>he's done a phenomenal job of playing those songs and

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<v Speaker 2>portraying Bruce in his fullness, not just in his gestures

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<v Speaker 2>and the way he speaks, but his way of phrasing

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<v Speaker 2>in songs, his way of playing guitar and harmonica. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think anyone who sees the film will agree it's

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<v Speaker 2>impossible not to be impressed by the dedication and devotion

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<v Speaker 2>that Jeremy has shown to the role.

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<v Speaker 1>Andrew McMillan is the Australian's national music writer. Springsteen Deliver

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<v Speaker 1>Me from Nowhere is out now. Warren Zane's book Deliver

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<v Speaker 1>Me from Nowhere was recently republished in paperback via Crown

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<v Speaker 1>Penguin Random House. Don't forget to check out our culture

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<v Speaker 1>section live right now at The Australian dot com. Dot au,

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<v Speaker 1>slash culture or in the Australians app. This episode of

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<v Speaker 1>the Front was hosted by me Claire Harvey and produced

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<v Speaker 1>by Jasper Leek. Thanks for joining us on the Front

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<v Speaker 1>this week. Our team also includes Kristen Amiot, Lee at Sammerglue,

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<v Speaker 1>Tiffany Dimak, Josh Burton and Stephanie Combs.