Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to separate bathrooms.
Speaker 2: We'd like to acknowledge the Gadigal people of the Eor nation,
Speaker 2: the traditional custodians of this land, and pay our respects
Speaker 2: to the elders, both past and present.
Speaker 3: And I'm Ali Daddo, I'm cam Dado.
Speaker 4: We were so blessed to have Maggie Dent in the
Speaker 4: studio last week.
Speaker 3: The conversation we couldn't speaking stuff.
Speaker 4: We're going to cut it off at forty minutes because
Speaker 4: she's so full of wonderful stories and advice and just
Speaker 4: great information for parents and for kids.
Speaker 3: So we decided to make it a two parter.
Speaker 2: So if you haven't listened, go back and listen to
Speaker 2: the one last week and follow along for this week's episode.
Speaker 3: Enjoy.
Speaker 4: I have found that, like I love the idea of
Speaker 4: planting the seed for me in my parenting with our kids,
Speaker 4: it's been if I've planted the seed, it's actually having
Speaker 4: the wherewithal to stop there.
Speaker 5: Yes, we want a big conversation so much, many conversations.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that's it. Many conversations, I think that's yeah.
Speaker 4: Little just step by. I call them doable chunks and
Speaker 4: just do them in doable chunks rather than if you
Speaker 4: look at that whole big picture, it's really hard, but
Speaker 4: if you break it down into those doable chunks, it
Speaker 4: makes it a lot easier.
Speaker 1: And also what.
Speaker 5: Really is helpful is that you've also had awkward conversations
Speaker 5: over many years before they've become a teen about our
Speaker 5: expectations and it's going to it could be a bit bumpy,
Speaker 5: you know, and I've heard that there is this is happening,
Speaker 5: and I just need to have a conversation about you know,
Speaker 5: your private parts or your body awareness, and I to
Speaker 5: know have you got the idea of consent yet? I
Speaker 5: know you're just going to have a million conversations. So
Speaker 5: often there are times that parents says to me, O, Meggie,
Speaker 5: So when do I have the chat to my son
Speaker 5: about sex? And I said, how old is he? Fourteen?
Speaker 5: I went, oh, given that eighty percent of boys by
Speaker 5: fourteen have been watching pornography, I'm a bit concerned. You
Speaker 5: may have left it a.
Speaker 2: Little later, but start nowt now.
Speaker 5: And usually with that one, when you start that seed
Speaker 5: about you know, sex and all that, I reckon you
Speaker 5: sow the seed in the car doing one hundred and
Speaker 5: ten k an hour because I can't get out. You're
Speaker 5: just going to say something like do you know one day,
Speaker 5: I hope you have fantastic sex because it's a fabulous
Speaker 5: thing to share your body with another person with joy
Speaker 5: and enthusiasm, And you just keep driving. You say nothing else.
Speaker 3: That's the kids go ah, I don't want.
Speaker 1: To know that, right.
Speaker 2: The thing that always fascinates me about parents too, is
Speaker 2: that it's like they gotten that they were ever teenager,
Speaker 2: and it's like a minute.
Speaker 1: You did this and you did that, and you've done
Speaker 1: way worse than what our kids doing. Sorry, I'm like.
Speaker 2: And like, remember when you were a teenager, Remember the
Speaker 2: actions that you were doing, the things you were doing.
Speaker 2: What our kids doing is completely normal. It's what it's
Speaker 2: what they're meant to do.
Speaker 1: In a way.
Speaker 4: So agreed, and so Maggie, just before because my brain
Speaker 4: will let this slip through to the keypar you did
Speaker 4: say fourteen you might have left a little bit late.
Speaker 3: What actually is the age? Is it ten? You dropping
Speaker 3: that seat ten eleven?
Speaker 5: Or what is it even before that? You know, like
Speaker 5: think you follow your children's leads, okay, you know that
Speaker 5: they'll come to you and say I saw this and
Speaker 5: it was a bit gross, So sometimes we have to
Speaker 5: let them know. You might see pictures or videos online
Speaker 5: that are with people with no clothes on doing things.
Speaker 5: Let me know about that, and we can. So you
Speaker 5: have to sew a few little seat along the way.
Speaker 5: But I think the one about I think sex is
Speaker 5: we so often and we think, oh, sex, it's been
Speaker 5: covered in school in year five, six and seven. Great,
Speaker 5: But I think you could probably remember that most of
Speaker 5: the time, you know, they were just putting condoms on
Speaker 5: bananas and carrots, which that's actually not sexual intimacy. And
Speaker 5: I think we're shifting now in our world that you know,
Speaker 5: you can be sexually intimate with another human with great consent.
Speaker 5: You know that doesn't necessarily have to be the person
Speaker 5: you live with for the rest of your life. So
Speaker 5: it's shifted. The hook up culture is shifted. And what
Speaker 5: we do know is, unfortunately, you know, the way that
Speaker 5: many of our boys are marinated with this misogynistic kind
Speaker 5: of stuff, which is of course the algorithms of big
Speaker 5: tech means that developing a very different awareness around it
Speaker 5: to what you would have had as a boy, probably
Speaker 5: wanting to find where they adult books were in the
Speaker 5: news agent, because that was about it does that make sense.
Speaker 5: So we're really counteracting a very different perception of the
Speaker 5: role of males and females in intimacy. And I think
Speaker 5: that's a big challenge for us, that sense of entitlement,
Speaker 5: that sense of you know, you know, that's what And
Speaker 5: in the book there were girls that said, this is
Speaker 5: just what you have to do nowadays in oral sex
Speaker 5: is just what we have to do with the boys
Speaker 5: now and I'm going home, excuse me. So it's a
Speaker 5: big world. Even though we know statistically they are having
Speaker 5: the majority are having sex later many of them are
Speaker 5: not drinking and around twenty to twenty three percent I
Speaker 5: heard that from our brilliant researcher recently, just not touching
Speaker 5: alcohol to their twenties, whereas that was very different people. So,
Speaker 5: you know, as I said, we can't just paint it
Speaker 5: all bad. But what we are seeing is an increase
Speaker 5: in sexual violence and increase in sexual harassment, particularly in
Speaker 5: our schools, towards girls and female teachers, which is at
Speaker 5: a different level, you know. I mean there was always
Speaker 5: the crazy banter, Hey, Hoti, you come and lay your
Speaker 5: body against me, all that sort of stuff. Now there
Speaker 5: are rape threats and there are sexual groaning, and there
Speaker 5: are boys pushing themselves up against girls and groping them
Speaker 5: on stairways. That did not happen about three years ago.
Speaker 5: So all of those that are in our school. That's
Speaker 5: another reason why female teachers are leaving. So we've got
Speaker 5: to we have to be part of that solution. We
Speaker 5: can't just rely on the school getting somebody in to
Speaker 5: talk about it. We all have to be putting forward
Speaker 5: that conversation about respectful relationships, you know, so that they
Speaker 5: get an idea that that's actually not okay. But I
Speaker 5: don't even know what is okay, you know. And our modeling,
Speaker 5: there's no question our modeling and our homes is huge,
Speaker 5: but we do both have to have those conversations about
Speaker 5: what I expect you to be when you grow up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and you know, obviously you would know
Speaker 2: that the levels of you know, partner violence is just
Speaker 2: you know through the roof at the moment, where do we, like,
Speaker 2: what would be your best I mean, obviously you're talking
Speaker 2: about modeling at home. Where do we start with our
Speaker 2: with our boys? Because you know, we can we can
Speaker 2: talk to our girls about consent. But if we've got
Speaker 2: a boy and I you know, our youngest has talked
Speaker 2: about that.
Speaker 1: He's like, oh, he just thought he could wear me down.
Speaker 2: And he had all of his mates telling him that,
Speaker 2: you know, even dad, you know, his dad was saying,
Speaker 2: just keep asking until she says yes. It's like, that's
Speaker 2: coercive control. So it's like, how do we shift it
Speaker 2: away from where we're traveling with this?
Speaker 1: Is it?
Speaker 2: Is it a as you said, Is it a whole
Speaker 2: issue within school home society? Do we need a program
Speaker 2: in schools where do we go?
Speaker 5: Well? I think it's you know, the reason I've become
Speaker 5: a boy champion was that there are things we can
Speaker 5: do in the first five years around healthy boundaries. That
Speaker 5: means that is a no, and a no is no,
Speaker 5: so you it'll be a no. So if your boundaries
Speaker 5: are weak around whoever's been your significant cares, then you
Speaker 5: just think, well you just keep adam to lay cave.
Speaker 5: So it does start quite early, You're quite right. But
Speaker 5: it is a specific conversation that you know, and there's
Speaker 5: some beautiful stuff out there about consent that you know,
Speaker 5: like it's this. It starts really early with when people
Speaker 5: want to, you know, grab your baby and give them
Speaker 5: a hug and your baby's got their face gone like this,
Speaker 5: or you know grandparents who want to pounce in and
Speaker 5: hug you without the kids being ready or wanting it.
Speaker 5: So there are some really awkward ways that we move
Speaker 5: towards that later. But I think that one about about
Speaker 5: you know, wearing them down in coercive control, that has
Speaker 5: obviously been a part of what they've seen as acceptable. Yeah,
Speaker 5: and so what is what often works better is you know,
Speaker 5: watching a show, watching a movie, and there are some
Speaker 5: teenage based programs, you know, like Heartbreak High and things
Speaker 5: that you could watch with your team and go, wow,
Speaker 5: that's crossing a line. I talk about crossing the line,
Speaker 5: and I think that metaphor really resonates the same with banter.
Speaker 5: You know, it doesn't camera, and there's times banter and
Speaker 5: teasing crosses a line, right, And I think that's a
Speaker 5: conversation we have to have many, many times with our boys.
Speaker 5: And that's why, you know, when they stop listening to
Speaker 5: Mum and dad because they don't know what they're talking
Speaker 5: about in this window. That is when we need those
Speaker 5: other lighthouse figures who are significant uncles, grandparents, coaches, or
Speaker 5: really awesome teachers who you might have a whisper in
Speaker 5: their ear, and they will have the conversation for you around.
Speaker 5: I really don't like the way that you're speaking to
Speaker 5: the girls in the class at the moment. I know
Speaker 5: you can do better than that, mate, So we don't
Speaker 5: shame them. We got we just so a seedde a
Speaker 5: positivity because boys respond to that so much more than
Speaker 5: they do with punishment and shame. And yet that's still
Speaker 5: mostly what they cop and as soon as you push back,
Speaker 5: like nobody, nobody, even a tiny toddler of two, likes
Speaker 5: being told what to do. Because we had this thing
Speaker 5: called counter will. So I think what we keep doing
Speaker 5: in the teenage years, we keep telling what we don't
Speaker 5: want instead of turning and this is what is a
Speaker 5: much better option, This is a better choice, or this
Speaker 5: is a way of saying that, And therefore we show
Speaker 5: them what's better rather than just keep punishing what's not okay,
Speaker 5: because technically behaviorism works best for rats.
Speaker 4: One of the things that I do struggle with.
Speaker 3: Is in my friendship group.
Speaker 4: And like when I play golf and I'm in my
Speaker 4: foursome and I hear comments from other golfers, We'll be
Speaker 4: sitting in there having a beer afterwards, and that's the
Speaker 4: banter that happens. And I have moments where I've actually
Speaker 4: had to say, if you're going to keep going on
Speaker 4: this line, I'm going to I've got to. I can't
Speaker 4: be here for this. I can't be listening. And unfortunately
Speaker 4: there's been times where oh, well he's a dickare Cams
Speaker 4: a dicka or whatever? And I get I'm the one
Speaker 4: on the outer and I'm not invited anymore because we've
Speaker 4: got to watch what we say around him. And the
Speaker 4: complaint with men my age who were raised a certain
Speaker 4: way by fathers of a certain generation is that they're
Speaker 4: pretty bitter about we can't make the same jokes anymore.
Speaker 4: We can't do this, and we can't see this or
Speaker 4: behave like that anymore. And it's it's really tricky for
Speaker 4: some guys, I think, because they want to they want
Speaker 4: to have their friendships.
Speaker 1: That's their way.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and it's it's to do it, but there
Speaker 4: is a cost to it if there other people are
Speaker 4: unwilling to have a look at it. So this idea
Speaker 4: of planning seeds or it's great and modeling for modeling
Speaker 4: that for the younger men coming through, I think it's
Speaker 4: really important. It's just a it can be really tricky
Speaker 4: and sometimes it's like I don't want to do that anymore.
Speaker 5: Also, those social norms are so deep, clear embedded, and
Speaker 5: you'll tend to find you know, we talk about grumpy
Speaker 5: old men. You know, there is a perception as men
Speaker 5: get older that they get even more resistant to change.
Speaker 5: And so in that situation, you're absolutely right, you will
Speaker 5: be the woke guy.
Speaker 3: I'm the guy. I'm that guy.
Speaker 5: You're the woke guy, right. And what I'm going to
Speaker 5: tell you was really good news is that there was
Speaker 5: a time that when men met for a beer, they
Speaker 5: would never speak about parenting or you know, their kids.
Speaker 5: They might say something derogatory about their wife. That was
Speaker 5: kind of how the bonding. But I'm going to tell
Speaker 5: you there's a big shift happening and that not only
Speaker 5: are dad's joining up with PRAM groups, walking together, they
Speaker 5: meet for coffee and they talk about everything. They're even
Speaker 5: talking about their mental health. So I feel that the
Speaker 5: older generation you're talking about, sadly, you know, over fifty,
Speaker 5: are gradually they're going to be replaced by a much
Speaker 5: more aware you know, you know, like if you've been
Speaker 5: to a playground lately because yours are older. Just wander around.
Speaker 5: There aren't any women there. There are dads with babies
Speaker 5: tied on and toddlers and just they're out there right,
Speaker 5: and these are the ones who are changing those those
Speaker 5: conversations because they're actually really, you know, really seeking some support.
Speaker 5: And I'm you know, one of the most interesting things
Speaker 5: is that, you know, when I do a sellout night
Speaker 5: for dads, they are hungry to be among other men
Speaker 5: who are putting their kids and their partners at the beginning,
Speaker 5: you know, in their life right in the front because
Speaker 5: they want to be a different man. And I think
Speaker 5: will gradually outgrow it. But it's so interesting that also
Speaker 5: on the good Enough Dad, the podcast where I did
Speaker 5: twenty excepts, oh my god, there were these beautiful moments
Speaker 5: when you know, these are men from all walks of life,
Speaker 5: have been very vulnerable about their muck ups and their
Speaker 5: moments where they just thought it's just too hard, And
Speaker 5: what it was that really made them stick is the
Speaker 5: love they have for their kids and their partner.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: And the more that men hear of that, then that
Speaker 5: that type of man, I think you'll find starts to
Speaker 5: soften around the edges, but it's really it really is
Speaker 5: actually happening at a grassroots level, so you kind of, yeah,
Speaker 5: there's a new type. I mean sometimes without saying anything,
Speaker 5: I think they've spoken to men who said the same
Speaker 5: thing you said, Cam, and they said, I just get
Speaker 5: up and I pretend I'm going to the toilet and
Speaker 5: I'm just not there and just disappear. So I don't
Speaker 5: make a comment about I just leave. Therefore, I'm making
Speaker 5: a silent statement that they you know, guys, they often
Speaker 5: can tune in to silence, but when they hear you,
Speaker 5: they feel very judged and they get even more defensive.
Speaker 5: But getting up and leaving or just make a yeah
Speaker 5: I need to get home.
Speaker 4: Yeah I'm a bit more of that guy now where
Speaker 4: I'll just get up and walk away. Because yeah, it's
Speaker 4: like you said, no one likes to be told what
Speaker 4: to do. And I set up a thing called my
Speaker 4: Men's Team, which was for guys to get together and
Speaker 4: do this talk. And you're not allowed to give advice
Speaker 4: in the Men's Team unless you asked for it, and
Speaker 4: so it was just that you can only give your
Speaker 4: experience about a situation. So you listening, We're learning to
Speaker 4: listen basically, and it's great to hear that this shift
Speaker 4: is happening.
Speaker 5: It's really good good and especially around mental health as well.
Speaker 5: Cam is that because you know, I've worked a lot
Speaker 5: around men who struggle after the loss of a partner
Speaker 5: or the loss of a child, because that was my specialty.
Speaker 5: And one of the things that men told me was
Speaker 5: that I don't want to break down in front of
Speaker 5: my wife because I and I, when you dig under it,
Speaker 5: it is so wound into social norms that guys think
Speaker 5: I'm meant to be the big protector and defender of
Speaker 5: my partner and if I'm vulnerable, I don't think she
Speaker 5: could love me. And it was interesting because I had
Speaker 5: this chat with Sarah Konovski about mother and our boys,
Speaker 5: and I shared this, how you know, I spoke about
Speaker 5: a couple of the men who who just found it
Speaker 5: really hard to tell their wife as she was dying
Speaker 5: in the last days of her life that he loved her,
Speaker 5: and it just used to get stuck. And after her
Speaker 5: funeral he was so angry at himself. And I said, look,
Speaker 5: she knew that because you turned up every day, you
Speaker 5: were there every day, and your two beautiful sons could
Speaker 5: say the words you couldn't say, and that that's you are,
Speaker 5: You've done it right. And then what happened was I
Speaker 5: kept getting all these emails and messages of how many
Speaker 5: guys are in a car with either their wife or
Speaker 5: their daughter had to pull over because they were sobbing
Speaker 5: because something that had happened to them when they were
Speaker 5: a little boy that they were punished with they'd never
Speaker 5: shared because they felt they would just be looking like
Speaker 5: they weren't strong enough for that, and that a woman
Speaker 5: couldn't love me if she knew the mistake I made.
Speaker 5: And once that starts shifting, we have these much more
Speaker 5: powerful and stronger, genuinely intimate relationships because no one is perfect,
Speaker 5: and if we have someone who can hold a safe
Speaker 5: space for us as we share those big, dark moments,
Speaker 5: it's not about being tough, and I can tell you
Speaker 5: that there are a lot of really tough women out
Speaker 5: there who struggle with the same shap not because of
Speaker 5: what gender you're in. It's because what story I've been
Speaker 5: told about how I deal with failure and disappointment and culture.
Speaker 2: Culture is pushes out on boys. You know you're the
Speaker 2: man of the house now at the age of eight,
Speaker 2: because dad's away.
Speaker 1: No he's not. He's not the man at the house.
Speaker 1: He's an eight year old boy. He doesn't have to
Speaker 1: look another half enough. And you're a pussy.
Speaker 2: You're gay if you cry like wow, I mean that's
Speaker 2: just said over and over again.
Speaker 1: But I was just thinking of that one of out.
Speaker 1: That's a lot of my generation, that's all your generation.
Speaker 3: That's how I got that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, dad went away and I was eight and there
Speaker 4: were four brothers and the sister and you are.
Speaker 2: You know so no, but one of our favorite shows.
Speaker 2: Did you ever watch Ted Lasso?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 2: Right, like that main character did more I think to
Speaker 2: prove the importance of having a panic attack and crying
Speaker 2: and the kindness he showed and the vulnerability. It was
Speaker 2: just so beautiful and I think so many people connected
Speaker 2: on however they connected, But what a beautiful example of
Speaker 2: a man.
Speaker 1: And he was not any less attractive or.
Speaker 5: Strong war he also demonstrated incredible integrity. Yeah, he was
Speaker 5: who he was, and his values around respecting others and
Speaker 5: things were just it was Yeah, I must have met.
Speaker 5: It was a good tonic, wasn't that. They can't watched
Speaker 5: the first one during COVID, so it was exactly what
Speaker 5: I needed was a.
Speaker 3: Storm of ted.
Speaker 1: Yes, how many people loved it really good.
Speaker 5: I think that's a challenge that sometimes we were, especially
Speaker 5: when we've got teens and then they're all in this
Speaker 5: crazy state, the pressure on them, and that's what came
Speaker 5: from so many of the voices from the boys and
Speaker 5: the girls. Isn't that interesting? About forty percent of the
Speaker 5: survey were from boys. I just put it out for
Speaker 5: any team, which is That's what I'm saying. There's a
Speaker 5: shift and boys wanting to be heard, and they feel
Speaker 5: that the pressure on them, you know, to achieve grades
Speaker 5: or awards that make their parents feel like they can
Speaker 5: love them more that they are. They're aware of it,
Speaker 5: and there are several that said that, you know, I'm
Speaker 5: in a really expensive school. They keep telling me how
Speaker 5: much it shit cake me. That's a big burden for
Speaker 5: me to carry.
Speaker 6: And I'm going, oh, what do teens specifically need from
Speaker 6: their parents to grow into emotionally intelligent people?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 5: Oh, that's beautiful, And the first thing they need is
Speaker 5: that absolutely need to know that their parents are going
Speaker 5: to have their back no matter what. That's a really
Speaker 5: important one because we want to be able to know
Speaker 5: when we muck up, we've always got a safe base
Speaker 5: of land. There's no question that resilience is actually about relationships,
Speaker 5: not about capacity. And also that we've over our childhood
Speaker 5: we've been modeled those moments with our parents of what
Speaker 5: happens when things get hard, that we gather together, that
Speaker 5: we don't blame and shame, we just come together and
Speaker 5: work out a plan to go forward. That's incredibly important.
Speaker 5: I think we celebrate moments of failure and muck up
Speaker 5: the failed test or whatever it is. We just don't
Speaker 5: make it a sign there's something wrong with you. Because
Speaker 5: the three most common things to come from a team
Speaker 5: who's contemplating dying by suicide is no one cares, so
Speaker 5: we can fix that, I don't matter, and they be
Speaker 5: better off without me. Right, So they're really easy things
Speaker 5: for parents to so I keep thinking sometimes in this journey,
Speaker 5: can we all just lighten the hell up? We focus
Speaker 5: on having more fun? Can we eat more cupcakes and
Speaker 5: pancakes and have fun movie nights? Can we play games
Speaker 5: together like we did when they were younger? Just around
Speaker 5: the edges to know that we can shift the neurochemicals
Speaker 5: that are causing them stress by the choices we make,
Speaker 5: and I think that's an incredibly important part as we
Speaker 5: move forward into that space. They also don't want you
Speaker 5: to shoot on them. You know, it's so easy, isn't it.
Speaker 5: They don't want any lecturing, they don't want any shooting,
Speaker 5: and they don't always want you to tell them what
Speaker 5: not to do. They're the three main things that came up.
Speaker 5: Stop shooting on us. And also we just we just
Speaker 5: want to know that you can genuinely care for us
Speaker 5: and also my friends, So that notion of a tribe
Speaker 5: where I want you to know that you don't just
Speaker 5: care for me, but you care for my you know,
Speaker 5: my friends, mine much doesn't matter what it is that
Speaker 5: sometimes having them around for a feed, or feeding them randomly,
Speaker 5: or picking them up and giving them rides home, you
Speaker 5: are showing and modeling something really profound in as they
Speaker 5: go forward in life, that they will value those connections
Speaker 5: and know that those connections make a difference because we
Speaker 5: are a social species and we're meant to be connected
Speaker 5: to other humans. And when we facilitate that for them,
Speaker 5: especially after major friendship breakups and heartaches and all those things,
Speaker 5: it's huge, absolutely huge.
Speaker 2: How do we know child is being bullied, What are
Speaker 2: the signs and how as parents do we step in
Speaker 2: and help that child.
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a long list of those things. There's usually
Speaker 5: changes in behavior that gradually happen over time. So you'll
Speaker 5: find that they will start withdrawing a bit more into
Speaker 5: their bedrooms. They will be withdrawing from normal activities. Sometimes
Speaker 5: it impacts that whether they're eating sometimes it's that, or
Speaker 5: sometimes they start not wanting to hang out with their
Speaker 5: real friends, like you'll notice the shift in that. But
Speaker 5: then you've got to look at their sleep. If they're
Speaker 5: walking around the house at all hours of the night,
Speaker 5: you can trust your gut instinct something's not okay. And
Speaker 5: that's why I keep saying, we're just so aceved you
Speaker 5: don't seem yourself. Can we have a chat to see
Speaker 5: what's going down? Just so asceeved you don't seem yourself okay.
Speaker 5: But the big one I think in all of this
Speaker 5: is that the bullying that we used to experience was
Speaker 5: face to face. Yes, So what's happening now, of course,
Speaker 5: is they're really frightened. You're going to take their phone
Speaker 5: off them? Yes, if I tell you that it's going
Speaker 5: on downline rather than coming to me and saying, look,
Speaker 5: these girls are being really awful and they can be
Speaker 5: so cruel that mum and dad might race out and
Speaker 5: confront them or confront the parent or make it worse,
Speaker 5: which it often does. So they just want to push
Speaker 5: it under. I don't want to bother them, I don't
Speaker 5: want to upset them, and then they just as you
Speaker 5: can see that, there's a point where we just can't
Speaker 5: deal with the pain of and it is profound, you know,
Speaker 5: because your capacity to see it logically is impaired because
Speaker 5: you're only young.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't see.
Speaker 5: And also the pylon that can happen is all of
Speaker 5: the others in that environment have to kind of be
Speaker 5: a part of it to stay in the group. So
Speaker 5: it's tied up with so much, you know, cognitive immaturity,
Speaker 5: and often when we confront those sorts of girls at
Speaker 5: different times, I've worked through some of these things. In
Speaker 5: the early days, we're just having fun, but of course
Speaker 5: it's actually you know, being there's being mean, saying something mean,
Speaker 5: and there's being a bit nasty, but the bullying is
Speaker 5: an intention to cause harm that's repeated, and I think
Speaker 5: we have to have conversations in our homes about the
Speaker 5: difference and being you know, if it happens to another person,
Speaker 5: you know, step forward and see if we can you know,
Speaker 5: create some sort of an ally for that kid. And
Speaker 5: there are times that we do, you know, we do
Speaker 5: need to move schools. We do need to be able
Speaker 5: to bring them home for a while, because it is
Speaker 5: the potential in that window when they're biologically wide to
Speaker 5: be developing friendships and connections. It can absolutely have that
Speaker 5: fatal consequence. And you know, at the end of the day,
Speaker 5: one of the things that schools can struggle with is
Speaker 5: the fact that when all that cyber bullying is happening
Speaker 5: at nights technically not during school time, but the playout
Speaker 5: is happening at school time right right, and so often
Speaker 5: you know, that's where there's a bit of a mix up.
Speaker 5: Some schools handle it brilliantly. However, he's also that culture
Speaker 5: you know that we've talked about, you know, no bullying
Speaker 5: war happens, and I think, don't think of a blue elephant.
Speaker 5: We're not encouraging you know, friendships or being civil or
Speaker 5: being respectful. You know, it's so many of those conversations
Speaker 5: need to happen in our home because you know, it
Speaker 5: can be your kid that's doing it, and that might
Speaker 5: have started off as a bit of a thing that
Speaker 5: it's then developed and then they can't get out of it.
Speaker 5: Because I work with a boy that was a bully
Speaker 5: at a school, and I did some very you know
Speaker 5: in my class. I make sure everyone has lots of
Speaker 5: paired conversations to get to know each other in the class,
Speaker 5: very short, bit funny, and over time that boy actually
Speaker 5: you know, kids would sit with him whereas no one
Speaker 5: wanted to go near him, and I realized he wasn't
Speaker 5: who we thought he was. But that takes some you
Speaker 5: know energy, and a lot of teachers and school leaders
Speaker 5: just have not got the time to follow through everything
Speaker 5: even if they hear it. But every child thuw it up. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: they cover it up. There's so many ways they hide
Speaker 5: all their awful trolling online. But we have to teach
Speaker 5: them about how to block it. And the e Safety
Speaker 5: Commissioner has fabulous stuff. You go straight to that site.
Speaker 5: We take evidence, we keep it when we teach our
Speaker 5: kids to do that when they first get a phone,
Speaker 5: We've actually got a chance of making these kids accountable earlier.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, I mean and what you're talking about too.
Speaker 4: I love what you said about mattering that have the
Speaker 4: kids know that they matter and in that situation that
Speaker 4: you may, as a parent have to pull your child
Speaker 4: out or extricate them from a situation, that's further enhancing
Speaker 4: to them that they will know that they matter to you,
Speaker 4: You are that they are important to you. And I
Speaker 4: guess the fine line with that is is as a parent,
Speaker 4: when do I step in?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, they're stepping in. Is we go to the
Speaker 5: school and we get the school leadership in the school
Speaker 5: student services team to be the ones that do the process,
Speaker 5: and we do not step in to confront. Either way,
Speaker 5: it doesn't matter. You know, if you have the best
Speaker 5: intentions in the world, you're going into bat for your kid,
Speaker 5: and there's a chance you're going to be emotionally volatile
Speaker 5: and you can make everything seriously worse for everybody. So again,
Speaker 5: even though it makes sense, and you may even know
Speaker 5: them casually, yeah, what their child's doing is not that
Speaker 5: adults you know, you know they're not doing it. Yeah,
Speaker 5: And they may not even know it's happening either. And
Speaker 5: then you've leapt in and kind of threatened, and you
Speaker 5: know it's just not it's just not mature behavior.
Speaker 2: We went through our own experience with one of our kids,
Speaker 2: and that was during COVID, which is exactly what you
Speaker 2: were saying, because they were not they weren't physically in school,
Speaker 2: so everything was online learning. So for that for the parent,
Speaker 2: for the sorry, for the school to be taking action
Speaker 2: on that was it was. It was outside of school hours.
Speaker 2: They are on totally on the screens all the time.
Speaker 2: I mean that mental health issue. Yes, kids are still
Speaker 2: struggling with that time, aren't they a certain age cap
Speaker 2: who what they at that age?
Speaker 1: She was in year nine, which was.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, the perfect storm of events, you know, COVID,
Speaker 2: online bullying and yeah, yeah it was really rough when
Speaker 2: it is.
Speaker 5: We did really really kind of say that we do
Speaker 5: see a lot of bullying with growing ups, right, you
Speaker 5: look at what happens in parliament, you see what you know,
Speaker 5: there are growing ups who do really poor behavior. So
Speaker 5: we really needed to call some of that out as
Speaker 5: we go forward.
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, for sure, for sure, what's been the
Speaker 2: most rewarding part of your work with family and children
Speaker 2: over the years.
Speaker 5: Oh, look, it happens. Just yeah, it's beautiful because I've
Speaker 5: been around so long. Yeah, every now and then I
Speaker 5: run into somebody who recognizes me. It comes up and
Speaker 5: gives me a big hug and says, oh my god,
Speaker 5: you saved my life. Particularly the ones who mums have died, Yeah,
Speaker 5: and I became their like surrogate mum figure. They just
Speaker 5: followed what I said, and they've raised these exceptional kids.
Speaker 5: Or the ones the moms particularly who didn't kind of
Speaker 5: understand their boys and then get out with mothering that went,
Speaker 5: oh man, they're a lot more sensitive than I thought,
Speaker 5: who have now got these wonderful teenage boys with a
Speaker 5: great relationship. And the other one that's really really special,
Speaker 5: I think is when I run into a lot of
Speaker 5: the dads who now want to hug and their selfie
Speaker 5: and they tell me that in their home they look
Speaker 5: at each other when the schmick's going down and just go,
Speaker 5: what would Maggie do? Yes, let's just go and put
Speaker 5: a kettle on, Let's go and eat chocolate, Let's just
Speaker 5: go for a walk around the backyard. What would Maggie do?
Speaker 5: And that really does kind of because it's that common
Speaker 5: sense thing that you know, at the end of the day,
Speaker 5: you know, stuff happens that is just hard work. But
Speaker 5: when we can co parents and kind of no, we're
Speaker 5: both trying hard and we're gonna have good days and
Speaker 5: bad days, that's pretty special.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I love that we need T shirts.
Speaker 3: There was that bracelet that the Christians were wearing, you know,
Speaker 3: w W j D. What would Jesus do? Yeah, what
Speaker 3: would Maggie do?
Speaker 5: No? I think I've got the T shirt that says, no.
Speaker 2: Matter what, no matter what, you loved you I loved
Speaker 2: no matter what.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I love no matter what, nothing, no matter what.
Speaker 5: We're just going to have to get some merch, don't we.
Speaker 4: Guys, Yeah, it would be great. Got one question for you.
Speaker 4: I'll pull this up just from one of our listeners.
Speaker 4: One of our listeners wrote, what do you say to
Speaker 4: all the parents that here you speak and love your
Speaker 4: message so much, but they feel guilt for the mistakes
Speaker 4: that they've made along the way?
Speaker 5: Oh gully, if they haven't been to one of my seminars,
Speaker 5: I haven't heard all mine, as dakes. I think the
Speaker 5: more that you know there is we're all going to
Speaker 5: hold some guilt. There's no question we wish we'd meet
Speaker 5: and the perfect parent in the moment, but oh my God,
Speaker 5: my cockups is so long and extended. And what's really
Speaker 5: beautiful is that especially when I own, you know, some
Speaker 5: of the main ones, particularly for getting book week because
Speaker 5: it's an international sport now and I make fun of
Speaker 5: those things. Apparently it makes their guilt disappear again. So
Speaker 5: please just put the guilt stick down. Put it down.
Speaker 5: You know, we've had a day where we forgot and
Speaker 5: I even forgot. We left one at the pool once.
Speaker 5: Fortunately was a state swimmer, so he didn't drown, but
Speaker 5: I thought Dad had him. Dad thought I had him,
Speaker 5: like you know, at the end of the day. Yeah,
Speaker 5: it's just how life goes. But do a head count, probably,
Speaker 5: But I am going to say, you know, every parent
Speaker 5: has got regrets. But if we focus on what we've
Speaker 5: done that that's worked. We focus on the joyful moments,
Speaker 5: the focus on the fun, we can let the guilt go. Yeah,
Speaker 5: so that's my that's my suggestion.
Speaker 2: And it's never too late, is it to have healing
Speaker 2: as well? But no matter how old you're.
Speaker 5: Yeah, as I say, the rupture, we all have ruptures. Yeah,
Speaker 5: we can come back in now and just go, holy heck,
Speaker 5: that wasn't me In a very good moment, I'm going
Speaker 5: to have a do over. I'm going to try and
Speaker 5: do a little bit better around that. Yeah, absolutely, which
Speaker 5: wasn't something that happened in previous generations.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah, Maggie, you make me feel like
Speaker 2: it's so much better about my parenting.
Speaker 1: I got my kids, and it's like, oh, what would
Speaker 1: Maggie do? Maggie makes you feel better?
Speaker 5: Yeah. I always recommend a really good block of high
Speaker 5: quality fruit nut chocolate in the bedroom for those moments
Speaker 5: because it is a health food.
Speaker 3: Got it your health, the sweetness, and it.
Speaker 5: Creates serotonin, so you'll come out a better parent.
Speaker 2: Now it says I've got this written down that your
Speaker 2: this is your final parenting.
Speaker 5: Vinyl locked the gate. You have no more parents shutting up.
Speaker 5: I might write fiction, but I feel it's time to
Speaker 5: hand a batton over to all the other educators coming up,
Speaker 5: some of them who I really love and respect. So
Speaker 5: as an old wise crone, it's time to hand over
Speaker 5: the baton. And I feel really good about it because
Speaker 5: I turned seventy in a few months, so it felt
Speaker 5: like a good time. Ten's a good number. We love
Speaker 5: the mighty phone number.
Speaker 2: Train's going help me, help my teens. Supporting our teens
Speaker 2: through tough times? Is your your latest and last book
Speaker 2: on parenting, because there's a brilliant library of them.
Speaker 1: So thank you so.
Speaker 5: Much, thank you for having a chat with me. I
Speaker 5: really looked at you guys from a distance to go
Speaker 5: and you've done some fabulous stuff.
Speaker 2: Well done, Thank you, Thank you so much. We've so
Speaker 2: enjoyed this chat with you today.
Speaker 1: Wonderful.
Speaker 2: Thanks for your time, mate, Maggie superhero, superhero cheers.
Speaker 5: You're the one who called me a train, remember get
Speaker 5: on the train.
Speaker 2: Well that's the end of our two partera with Maggie Dent,
Speaker 2: which could have been a ten part.
Speaker 3: I love her grace.
Speaker 4: She would say, you know what I've done ten books.
Speaker 4: You don't need to hear from me anymore. There's a
Speaker 4: whole lot of new yeah.
Speaker 3: Coming up from incredibly insightful people.
Speaker 2: And that is insightful in itself. She knows about herself
Speaker 2: and also without ego.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because she is the Queen of common sense Yeah,
Speaker 4: which was absolutely on has been on show for the
Speaker 4: last two of these episodes that we've spoken to her.
Speaker 2: I mean, I really mean that, like I feel I
Speaker 2: feel like we did we did good as parents like,
Speaker 2: I'm like all those things that I've felt guilt over
Speaker 2: and worried over, I'm like, you know, it's okay, You're okay.
Speaker 3: Look.
Speaker 1: I so hope you've enjoyed our double set with Maggie.
Speaker 1: We sure have.
Speaker 2: You can get all of her books, but her last
Speaker 2: one is help me Help my teens, supporting our teens
Speaker 2: through tough times, and you may just learn a lot
Speaker 2: about yourself as well.
Speaker 1: I did, Yeah did you?
Speaker 4: I did corrupt it all right, we'll catch up with
Speaker 4: the next time on separate bathroom.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.