WEBVTT - Why recognising Palestine is a 'hollow gesture'

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<v Speaker 1>From the Australian Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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<v Speaker 1>Australia is recognizing Palestinian statehood, a dramatic announcement from Prime

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<v Speaker 1>Minister Anthony Albanezi and Penny Wall, who say this is

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<v Speaker 1>the only way to isolate Hermas and end the suffering

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<v Speaker 1>of ordinary Palestinians.

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<v Speaker 2>A two state solution is humanity's best hope to break

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<v Speaker 2>the cycle of violence in the Middle East and to

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<v Speaker 2>bring an end to the conflict, suffering and starvation in Gaza.

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<v Speaker 1>The Prime Minister says the recognition is conditional on significant

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<v Speaker 1>moves by the Palestinian Authority, which controls the West Bank

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<v Speaker 1>but not the Gaza Strip, to remove Harmas from power,

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<v Speaker 1>demilitarize any future Palestinian state, allow international forces to participate

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<v Speaker 1>in security, and to hold elections. The announcement comes after

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<v Speaker 1>a furious denunciation from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Nettania, who

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<v Speaker 1>who has effectively accused Australia of hypocrisy.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, first of all, those are saying that Israel has

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<v Speaker 3>a right to defend itself are also saying, but don't

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<v Speaker 3>exercise outright when we do what any country we do

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<v Speaker 3>faced with US ten, a stitle terrorist organization that has

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<v Speaker 3>performed the worst attack on Jill since the Holocaust. I

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<v Speaker 3>think we're actually applying forced judiciously and they know it.

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<v Speaker 1>LETNYA, who is forging ahead with a plan approved by

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<v Speaker 1>Israel's security cabinet to dismantle Hamas in Gaza's refugee camps

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<v Speaker 1>and Gaza City. You can read all our analysis and

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<v Speaker 1>reporting right now at the Australian dot com. Today foreign

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<v Speaker 1>editor Greg Sheridan walks us through the news. Greg Sheridan

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<v Speaker 1>is The Australian's Foreign editor. Greg. We saw this announcement

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<v Speaker 1>with a lot of emotion from Anthony Albanezi and Penny.

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<v Speaker 4>Want across the world.

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<v Speaker 1>Nations have agreed that we cannot keep doing the same

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<v Speaker 1>thing and hoping for a different outcome.

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<v Speaker 3>We can't keep waiting for the end.

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<v Speaker 1>Of a peace process that has ground to a halt.

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<v Speaker 1>What does it actually mean, Well.

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<v Speaker 4>Claire, it means almost nothing. What it reflects is growing

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<v Speaker 4>isolation of Israel internationally.

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<v Speaker 3>And while like most.

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<v Speaker 4>Commentators, I thought Israel is completely justified in retaliating after

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<v Speaker 4>October seven, I don't think the new escalation of the

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<v Speaker 4>campaign makes sense at all. It's just going to result

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<v Speaker 4>in a lot of innocent dead Garzans and a lot

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<v Speaker 4>of innocent dead Israeli soldiers, and it's not likely to

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<v Speaker 4>make any difference in six months time. But in the meantime, Nedegnahu,

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<v Speaker 4>apart from those human costs, is costing Israel enormous support

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<v Speaker 4>politically internationally. Now, what should be a completely unrelated question

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<v Speaker 4>about early recognition of a Palestinian state has been conflated

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<v Speaker 4>with this unpopularity of Israel. But the recognition of a

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<v Speaker 4>Palestinian state by countries like France and Australia will make

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<v Speaker 4>no difference at all in reality to the realities on

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<v Speaker 4>the ground, and it won't hasten the coming about of

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<v Speaker 4>an independent Palestinian state.

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<v Speaker 2>I've said it publicly, and I've said it directly to

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<v Speaker 2>Prime Minister Netanyahu. The situation in Gaza has gone beyond

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<v Speaker 2>the world's worst fears. Far too many innocent lives have

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<v Speaker 2>been lost. The Israeli government continues to defy international law

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<v Speaker 2>and deny sufficient aid, food and water to desperate people,

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<v Speaker 2>including children. This vital aid must be allowed to get

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<v Speaker 2>to the people who need it most. This is about

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<v Speaker 2>much more than drawing a line on a map. This

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<v Speaker 2>is about delivering a lifeline to the people of Gaza.

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<v Speaker 1>Is your view that Benjamin Etna, who has effectively created

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<v Speaker 1>this situation by overplaying his hand.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes to some extent. Yes, there was a move for

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<v Speaker 4>early recognition of a Palestinian state amongst the global left. Anyway,

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<v Speaker 4>it's been formal ALP policy for seven or eight years now.

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<v Speaker 4>The ALP leaders knew that policy was complete nonsense, and

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<v Speaker 4>their strategy always was how to contain enough ambiguity in

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<v Speaker 4>the policy that would allow them simply to put it

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<v Speaker 4>off forever. So the policy would say something like at

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<v Speaker 4>a time which is appropriate, or when both sides are ready,

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<v Speaker 4>or when certain preconditions are met. But if I can

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<v Speaker 4>explain just why the whole policy is nutty, it's just

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<v Speaker 4>completely nutty. It's just your politics of the global left.

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<v Speaker 4>When you are creating a new state, a brand new

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<v Speaker 4>state like South Sudan broke away from North Sudan or

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<v Speaker 4>something like that, you have to negotiate between the parties involved,

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<v Speaker 4>but you can't recognize it in advance. That just does

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<v Speaker 4>make any sense. These are matters of negotia for the

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<v Speaker 4>parties involved. So this is really hollow performative symbolism at

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<v Speaker 4>its absolute worst, just the sort of thing the international

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<v Speaker 4>left delights in, and the fact that a lot of

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<v Speaker 4>left wing leaders under terrible pressure from their own far

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<v Speaker 4>left and their own Muslim populations. Macron in France, Starmer

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<v Speaker 4>in Britain. I think it's a great idea doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 4>it's a great idea. It just means it's fashionable amongst

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<v Speaker 4>the failing left of center governments for the moment.

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<v Speaker 2>This is an opportunity to deliver self determination for the

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<v Speaker 2>people of Palestine in a way that isolates the mass,

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<v Speaker 2>disarms it and drives it out of the region once

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<v Speaker 2>and for all. Ha Maas is not just an enemy

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<v Speaker 2>of Israelis, it's an enemy of the Palestinian people as well,

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<v Speaker 2>and their actions, including during the current conflict where opposition

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<v Speaker 2>to Hamas has been met with brutality, is recognized by no,

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<v Speaker 2>not just by Australia, but by the international community.

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<v Speaker 1>Is it possible that those governments know that this is

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<v Speaker 1>a gesture, but think that this is the gesture that

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<v Speaker 1>will make Benjamin Netanya who pull back.

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<v Speaker 4>No, that's not remotely possible. What is possible is that

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<v Speaker 4>the leaders of these governments know that this is a futile, hollow,

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<v Speaker 4>meaningless gesture, but it's necessary for their domestic politics. And

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<v Speaker 4>what you're witnessing here is Western domestic politics. People talk

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<v Speaker 4>about their humanity being outraged by what's happening. Some half

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<v Speaker 4>a million people were killed in the Syrians of a war.

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<v Speaker 4>Nobody's humanity was outraged by that in the alp left.

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<v Speaker 4>But there is in the West on the left an

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<v Speaker 4>extreme obsession with Israel and a hatred for Israel.

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<v Speaker 3>Now.

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<v Speaker 4>I think Israel is making grievous moral mistakes now and

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<v Speaker 4>is legitimately subject to criticism. But the idea that you

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<v Speaker 4>must make some sort of extraordinary gesture, it's all tied

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<v Speaker 4>up in Western identity politics, the Western politics of the left,

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<v Speaker 4>Western politics of New Muslim immigrant communities. This will have

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<v Speaker 4>more effect on Marrickville and Glee than it will ever

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<v Speaker 4>have on Bethlehem or Gaza City. And this is directed

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<v Speaker 4>at Marrickville and Glee. The Alberanesi government may as well

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<v Speaker 4>recognize Palestinian state in Kalgoli or something, at least it

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<v Speaker 4>has some jurisdiction there. It has no jurisdiction in Palestine,

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<v Speaker 4>and the Palestinians are not going to pay a blind

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<v Speaker 4>bit of attention to anything an Australian government tells them do,

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<v Speaker 4>nor will the Israelis. It has significance in the sense

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<v Speaker 4>that it contributes to the further isolation of Israel, and

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<v Speaker 4>it has two other levels of significance as well. So

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<v Speaker 4>Marco Rubio, the US Secretary of State, said that the

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<v Speaker 4>day the French announced unilateral recognition of Palestine as a state,

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<v Speaker 4>Hummas walked away from the ceasefire negotiations because Hummas sees

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<v Speaker 4>this as a tremendous victory. They're delighted at the Albanese

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<v Speaker 4>government's action. They can say, look, we murdered twelve hundred

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<v Speaker 4>Jews and all these Weston countries recognized a Palestinian state,

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<v Speaker 4>isn't that fantastic? And we took two hundred and fifty hostages,

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<v Speaker 4>killed a lot of them, released some of them, and

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<v Speaker 4>have kept at least twenty of them alive. And they

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<v Speaker 4>are our leverage. And the Western world doesn't care about that.

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<v Speaker 4>They are willing to become alienated from Israel. So what

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<v Speaker 4>a fantastic win for us. And at the same time,

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<v Speaker 4>those extremists who form a small minority in Israel but

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<v Speaker 4>a significant minority who want to just occupy all Palestinian

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<v Speaker 4>land forever. They say, well, look, the Western world hates

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<v Speaker 4>us anyway, so what can we do about it. We

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<v Speaker 4>just should maximize our position while we've got this moment,

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<v Speaker 4>this opportunity, while our conflict is underway. So, insofar as

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<v Speaker 4>this gesture has any consequence at all, it is to

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<v Speaker 4>embolden the extremists on both sides, which is not to

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<v Speaker 4>equate the extremists on both sides. But it emboldeness hum

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<v Speaker 4>us to never have a ceasefire, never make a concession,

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<v Speaker 4>as long as they can keep hold of them a

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<v Speaker 4>few living Israeli hostages. And it emboldens the far right

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<v Speaker 4>of Israeli politics to make their maximal position as soon

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<v Speaker 4>as possible. In other words, like most things that the

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<v Speaker 4>left does internationally, is completely counterproductive.

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<v Speaker 3>They know what they would do if right next to

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<v Speaker 3>Melbourne or right next to Sydney you had this soleretic ATTAXA.

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<v Speaker 3>I think you would do it at least what we're doing.

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<v Speaker 3>Probably maybe not as efficiently and as precisely as we're

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<v Speaker 3>doing it. We've lost quite a few soldiers in that effort.

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<v Speaker 1>There are effectively two governments of Palestine, which is two

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<v Speaker 1>chunks of land on either side of Israel. One is

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<v Speaker 1>the Palestinian Authority, which governs the West Bank, that is,

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<v Speaker 1>the territory west of the Jordan River. The Palestinian Authority

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<v Speaker 1>is dominated by a political party called Fatar, which was

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<v Speaker 1>founded by Yaser Arafat and is now run by Makhmud Abbas.

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<v Speaker 1>He was elected president in two thousand and five. On

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<v Speaker 1>the other side, on the western side of his Israel,

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<v Speaker 1>close to the shore of the Mediterranean Sea, is the

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<v Speaker 1>Gaza Strip that's run by Hamas, which won legislative elections

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<v Speaker 1>in two thousand and six and has refused to hold

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<v Speaker 1>elections ever since. Hamas and Fatar are effectively enemies. That's

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<v Speaker 1>one of the reasons there haven't been elections in nearly

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<v Speaker 1>two decades. The person whom Anthony Albanesi and Penny Wong

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<v Speaker 1>are talking to in Palestine is Makhmud Abbas, the president

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<v Speaker 1>of the Palestinian Authority, who of course only has control

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<v Speaker 1>over the West Bank. One of the things that Makmudabuses

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<v Speaker 1>agreed to as a condition of these is to remove

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<v Speaker 1>her mass from power. Does he have any power to

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<v Speaker 1>do that, of course not.

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<v Speaker 4>When the Mass won an election in Gaza. They killed

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<v Speaker 4>the Palestinian authority people. They found anyone who was gay

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<v Speaker 4>and threw them off the top of the building, and

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<v Speaker 4>they murdered Palestinian Authority officials. And indeed, in the recent

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<v Speaker 4>war there were demonstrations against Hummas by Ghazan civilians who

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<v Speaker 4>were subsequently murdered, harassed and beaten up and persecuted and

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<v Speaker 4>so on by Hummas thugs. Marc Mondabas has very little power.

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<v Speaker 4>He's in the twentieth year of a four year term.

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<v Speaker 4>The Palestinian authority is very corrupt, very incompetent. Nonetheless, there's

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<v Speaker 4>a sort of uneasy compromise. Life in the West Bank

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<v Speaker 4>is generally speaking not too bad. You know, people have

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<v Speaker 4>a standard of living there which is not bad by

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<v Speaker 4>the standards of the Arab Middle East. And the Palestinian

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<v Speaker 4>authority is corrupt and incompetent, but it gets lots of taxes,

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<v Speaker 4>lots of money from Israel and so forth, and there's

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<v Speaker 4>an uneasy calm. Not too many people get killed. The

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<v Speaker 4>situation is being managed. Marc Mondabas is a very old leader.

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<v Speaker 4>He has a long history of his own antisemitism. He

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<v Speaker 4>read a bizarre PhD thesis on how the Jews were

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<v Speaker 4>in league with the Artzis to perpetrate the Holocaust of

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<v Speaker 4>the Second World War. The Fatah movement has its own

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<v Speaker 4>history of terrorism and hatred of Jews and so forth,

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<v Speaker 4>and all these new commitments he's made, well, a logical

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<v Speaker 4>thing would be to say, well, let's see five years

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<v Speaker 4>of those commitments being lived out, and then let's see

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<v Speaker 4>what we can do after that. If you had five

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<v Speaker 4>years of normalization, you'd have a very strong argument for

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<v Speaker 4>movement towards a state. But remember, the Israelis have offered

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<v Speaker 4>the Palestinians a state, but on four previous occasions, on

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<v Speaker 4>pretty much the maximum terms that are allowable, and the

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<v Speaker 4>Palestinians have always walked away from it because they know

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<v Speaker 4>any leader who agrees to it will be killed by

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<v Speaker 4>his own extremists, and they demonize Israel in a way

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<v Speaker 4>which means they would never accept a Jewish state in

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<v Speaker 4>the heart of the Middle East, on defensible borders and

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<v Speaker 4>so forth. So for the moment, Macmodobas is smart enough

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<v Speaker 4>that he'll agree to anything. At the moment, co education

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<v Speaker 4>and I don't know, college sports for girls, anything you like,

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<v Speaker 4>you can probably get him to agree to anything, paid

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<v Speaker 4>maternity leave, whatever you like. But what record of implementation

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<v Speaker 4>do we see from the Palestinian authority on any of

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<v Speaker 4>these matters. And in any event, even if he commits

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<v Speaker 4>to everything in the world, he is still going to

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<v Speaker 4>have to negotiate a state with Israel, not with the

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<v Speaker 4>Albanesi government. The Alberanzi government has no business recognizing a

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<v Speaker 4>Palestinian state when no state exists. It's not morally offensive

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<v Speaker 4>so much, it's just completely illogical. Let's recognize Mars as

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<v Speaker 4>the state or something just has no meaning. You know,

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<v Speaker 4>what is going to happen in the physical universe that

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<v Speaker 4>is different because of this nothing at all. This is

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<v Speaker 4>just politics's theater in the hope that it helps stave

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<v Speaker 4>off the Greens in various federal seats, and it placates

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<v Speaker 4>the Muslim immigrant community, and it leads to less tension

0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.240
<v Speaker 4>with the left within the Labor Party, and it leads

0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:58.439
<v Speaker 4>to a bit of grandstanding internationally.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up, how does settler violence in the West Bank

0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:20.840
<v Speaker 1>play into this complex story? How does settler violence in

0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:23.360
<v Speaker 1>the West Bank fit into this picture? Greg This is

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<v Speaker 1>where Israeli communities that have established themselves in the West

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<v Speaker 1>Bank on the west Bank of the Jordan River engaged

0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:32.080
<v Speaker 1>in conflict with Palestinian locals.

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<v Speaker 4>I do think one of the significant failures of Israeli

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<v Speaker 4>policy in recent decades has been a failure to police

0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:43.680
<v Speaker 4>fully their own people in the West Bank. The last

0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:47.560
<v Speaker 4>time the Israelis made a full fledged offer of statehood

0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:51.440
<v Speaker 4>to the Palestinians was under Prime Minister aehod olmut In.

0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:54.400
<v Speaker 4>I think it was two thousand and eight, and they

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<v Speaker 4>offered I think ninety four or ninety five percent of

0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:00.840
<v Speaker 4>the West Bank for a Palestinian state, and they would

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<v Speaker 4>keep only the huge settlement blocks right next to Jerusalem,

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<v Speaker 4>which perform a sort of a security function for making

0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:12.960
<v Speaker 4>Jerusalem much harder to attack. And that involved then that

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<v Speaker 4>they would have uprooted a number of Jewish settlements, especially

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<v Speaker 4>illegal settlements, by which I mean not illegal under international law,

0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:26.080
<v Speaker 4>but illegal under Israeli law. Now, in recent years, the

0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:31.080
<v Speaker 4>Israelis have not enforced their own laws adequately, so illegal

0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:35.760
<v Speaker 4>settlements get established, and then once they're established, they get protected.

0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:38.960
<v Speaker 4>Now they still make up a very small amount of

0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:43.800
<v Speaker 4>West Bank territory, but in the event of a proper

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<v Speaker 4>two state solution, they'd have to be removed. And I

0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:51.360
<v Speaker 4>think the Israelis should enforce their own law and remove

0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:56.880
<v Speaker 4>them anyway. Israel was founded as a left wing nation.

0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:00.680
<v Speaker 4>The kibbutz were a socialist movement. In anyways, it was

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<v Speaker 4>a secular nation. It was Jews taking secular control of

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<v Speaker 4>their own destiny rather than just relying on ultimate religious consolation.

0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:14.160
<v Speaker 4>And part of that was a desire to live in

0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:19.200
<v Speaker 4>peace with their Arab neighbors and the two States solution

0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:24.040
<v Speaker 4>was first offered to Arabs when the territory was partitioned

0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:27.160
<v Speaker 4>in nineteen forty seven, and then it was offered twice

0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:30.040
<v Speaker 4>as a result of the Oslo Accords, and every time

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<v Speaker 4>the Palestinians got close to accepting and then ran away

0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:36.240
<v Speaker 4>because they couldn't bear the idea that they would have

0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:39.120
<v Speaker 4>to have an end of claims on Israel, that they'd

0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:41.600
<v Speaker 4>have to live in peace with a Jewish state, that

0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.360
<v Speaker 4>they could mount no more attacks on Israel, that they'd

0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:48.080
<v Speaker 4>have to stop the antisemitism in their education systems, and

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<v Speaker 4>so on. But that continued record of rejectionism and terrorism

0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:59.760
<v Speaker 4>heardened Israeli politics and led to the view there never

0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:04.159
<v Speaker 4>to be partners for peace. Therefore, and this is a

0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:07.040
<v Speaker 4>view of a minority of Israelis, but nonetheless a significant

0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:11.720
<v Speaker 4>minority the Palestinians will never be a partner of peace. Therefore,

0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:15.040
<v Speaker 4>we should simply take the land that we can get

0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:20.440
<v Speaker 4>in order to create the most secure, military, defensible territory

0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:24.760
<v Speaker 4>for Israel. And some Israelis are definitely signed up to

0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:28.879
<v Speaker 4>the idea that all of that land belongs to the

0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:33.040
<v Speaker 4>Jewish state for biblical reasons. Now I think that's wrong,

0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:39.320
<v Speaker 4>but the more the international community isolates Israel, the more

0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:44.280
<v Speaker 4>it provokes that kind of reaction. Now, this can lead

0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:47.400
<v Speaker 4>to all kinds of tragedies in all kinds of circumstances,

0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:51.320
<v Speaker 4>but emotional and hysterical actions like we're seeing from the

0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:56.200
<v Speaker 4>Albanese government make the tragedy more likely, not less likely.

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<v Speaker 1>Greck Sheridan is The Australian's Foreign editor. You can read

0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:06.800
<v Speaker 1>his analysis plus all our reporting right now at The

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<v Speaker 1>Australian dot com dot au