Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Eye Catch Killers. Today I
Speaker 1: sat down with an extraordinary man who has seen and
Speaker 1: done things in life most of us could not comprehend,
Speaker 1: let alone understand when we talk of us to the country.
Speaker 1: Today's guest has my total respect. He served over ten
Speaker 1: years as an operator and patrol commander in the Special
Speaker 1: Air Services Regiment of the Australian Army. His service in
Speaker 1: the SAS Regiment between two thousand and three and twenty
Speaker 1: fifteen was spent whilst Australia was at war. He and
Speaker 1: his colleagues were a tip of the spear during the conflict.
Speaker 1: Anyone involved in fighting a war pays a price in
Speaker 1: some way. We talk about what it takes to become
Speaker 1: a member of one of the most elite fighting units
Speaker 1: in the world, what happens in the war zone, and
Speaker 1: the price that is paid. It was an honest and
Speaker 1: emotional conversation and it went into areas I didn't expect.
Speaker 1: Have a listen. I think it might go a long
Speaker 1: way to understanding who these men are and what they
Speaker 1: go through serving their country. Today's guest, who goes by
Speaker 1: the nickname of Horse, was suggested to me by someone
Speaker 1: who said I should talk to him, and I'm glad
Speaker 1: I did. Horse. Welcome to I catch killers.
Speaker 2: Thank you, good to be here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I know how busy you are, so thank
Speaker 1: you very much for taking the time to come in
Speaker 1: here and have a chat.
Speaker 2: I appreciate you making the time and so yeah, we've
Speaker 2: had a couple of false starts, and yeah the troubles
Speaker 2: and that good good to be here.
Speaker 1: Finally, well, how about I clarify why you called the
Speaker 1: horse at first. Now that's your nickname, and that's what
Speaker 1: we'll refer you as. But there's a lot of connotations
Speaker 1: that come with a nickname called horse, so you might
Speaker 1: set the records straight.
Speaker 2: I usually lead in that's a rumor I started, But
Speaker 2: now I grew up with horses and it was horse
Speaker 2: man and got shortened a horse. Really, so kind of
Speaker 2: a little bit boring. Yeah, okay, and it's that simple.
Speaker 2: And then I sort of just took it on and
Speaker 2: ran with it. Now nobody really knows my real name.
Speaker 1: How long have people been calling your horse for?
Speaker 2: Since I was a kid, right sixteen? Really kind of
Speaker 2: morphed into just horse.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, Well it makes it simple, doesn't it. Now
Speaker 1: we've also got two other I was going to say people,
Speaker 1: but they're not people, but two other participants in the
Speaker 1: podcast today. You've brought your dog, Presston in.
Speaker 2: Yep, Yeah, he's down here. He made it onto Sky
Speaker 2: News the other week and he's doing the same thing now,
Speaker 2: sleeping through it all.
Speaker 1: Well, I thought i'd bring my mate Spike in, who's
Speaker 1: down there and Pressing and Spike have met. There's been
Speaker 1: a little argie bargie, but no blows thrown, so hopefully
Speaker 1: it stays that way.
Speaker 2: Nothing too serious is usually well mannered.
Speaker 1: You have Preston as a companion dog, that's correct, Yeah,
Speaker 1: what's ago with that? So?
Speaker 2: Well, long story short, I'm certified with PTSD from the
Speaker 2: military service, and so my lifestyle, as you alluded to,
Speaker 2: is quite busy, and so to have a dog generally
Speaker 2: is not really viable. So I got him certified as
Speaker 2: an assistance animal, and so he can come everywhere with me.
Speaker 2: And say, it just allows me to travel on the
Speaker 2: plane with him. I don't have to spend the extra
Speaker 2: money put him in freight or you know his business.
Speaker 2: Especially we live on a boat now, and so we
Speaker 2: can go to national parks and some people say, well,
Speaker 2: it seem to be quite well adjusted. I don't really
Speaker 2: know me, and I thought maybe I'm taking a piss
Speaker 2: here and abusing, But really, when we go out in public,
Speaker 2: he sorts out the week from the chaff, so to speak,
Speaker 2: and you find out who you want to talk to
Speaker 2: pretty quickly, and so who's got manners around animals and
Speaker 2: so they're the ones. So I actually start to engage
Speaker 2: with people out in public where I normally wouldn't and
Speaker 2: so that that's pretty much what he does for me.
Speaker 2: It's not the classic traumatized and he is nurturing and
Speaker 2: I'm a little buddy. And because it's just me and him,
Speaker 2: that's very very important for me. Week life on the
Speaker 2: boat sounds like fun, but it would be a lot
Speaker 2: less fun without him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think having something like a dog in
Speaker 1: your life it gives a degree of stability. As chaotic
Speaker 1: as your life can be, you've got something that remains
Speaker 1: the same, some consistency there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's anchoring effects. So you've got you've got to
Speaker 2: get up, you've got to take him for a walk.
Speaker 2: And there's so that that responsibility is important. I think
Speaker 2: without responsibility in your life, you just fritter it away.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I first saw you a couple of months ago.
Speaker 1: There was a film that was invited along too, called
Speaker 1: Bravery and Betrayal. It was a documentary about the SAS
Speaker 1: and the work that the SAS did in Afghanistan, documentary
Speaker 1: that I found fascinating. Yourself and another person that was
Speaker 1: featured in the documentary spoke after the film and Simon Heath,
Speaker 1: the producer of the film, said, Hey, you want to
Speaker 1: check out what these guys are doing in the power
Speaker 1: of this documentary. How's that for you? The documentary, Well, we.
Speaker 2: Started off just thought, well, we've got sick of the
Speaker 2: narrative and Defense wasn't correcting it. So we thought, well,
Speaker 2: we'll get our story out there and booked five private
Speaker 2: cinemas like independent cinemas, and then they sold out. We'll
Speaker 2: put another screening on and that sold out, and I
Speaker 2: think we've done sixty five sold out cinemas on the
Speaker 2: first tour, and Simon Heath, the director, and myself are
Speaker 2: about to start tour two point zero and say back
Speaker 2: by popular demand, it's always good. It's been quite surprising
Speaker 2: and often confronting. As I said, just made this film
Speaker 2: because we thought, I want to get out side of
Speaker 2: the story out there because it's not being presented, and
Speaker 2: it's given us a voice, which has been good. And
Speaker 2: it's been quite cathartic journey because all the audiences have
Speaker 2: been very, very supportive of of us and and surprised,
Speaker 2: so they got they come up in tears and we didn't.
Speaker 2: We didn't know what you guys went through, what's been
Speaker 2: done to you. And then there's the one that really
Speaker 2: put on my mask was a tunnel wrap from Vietnam.
Speaker 2: He's come up in tears and hugging me, saying thank you.
Speaker 2: Nobody's nobody ever did this for us, And so it's
Speaker 2: grown to be a lot, a lot more. And the
Speaker 2: other thing that's been occurring to me is the family
Speaker 2: is the sacrifice of the families, and we we'd lost
Speaker 2: over that, and you know, it's one of the single
Speaker 2: guys throughout the whole thing. You know, I would, in hindsight,
Speaker 2: I would go and hang out with the families and
Speaker 2: live vicariously through that, that tight knit unit, those nuclear families,
Speaker 2: and and all the bonding that went went with that
Speaker 2: through the wives while we were away, and so they
Speaker 2: were extremely important. And obviously we've got interviews with a
Speaker 2: son who lost his dad, Keegan Locke, his mum Lee
Speaker 2: Ta did widow, and we've got the McCarthy's who lost
Speaker 2: a son, and so their sacrifice has been really been highlighted,
Speaker 2: I think, and hopefully everybody appreciates that, so we do
Speaker 2: get some thank you for your service. They're the ones
Speaker 2: that really sacrifice in the family. So there's a lot
Speaker 2: of things come home. Being driven home to me made
Speaker 2: me sit up and have a bit of a look
Speaker 2: at the wider space instead of just what I was
Speaker 2: doing downrange and getting after it.
Speaker 1: Well, I've got to say it was powerful and it
Speaker 1: doesn't surprise me. You say, people in tears after the
Speaker 1: documentary was shown the aim of the documentary, and I
Speaker 1: think it really hit the mark. But just when the
Speaker 1: documentary was made, this was the aim and I just
Speaker 1: read this out over in Betrayal highlights the courage of
Speaker 1: Australia and sas soldiers in Afghanistan while exposing what they
Speaker 1: perceive as a betrayal by politicians, media and senior defense
Speaker 1: leaders after their service. The film aims to set the
Speaker 1: records straight, honor the soldier's sacrifice, and advocate for better
Speaker 1: treatment of veterans. I think if you watch that movie,
Speaker 1: you're going to go, okay, well that's a fair call.
Speaker 1: And the narrative that you talk about is this, and
Speaker 1: it's been hanging around for a long time and probably
Speaker 1: too long, the allegations of war crimes that seem to
Speaker 1: have put a stain on all the work that you
Speaker 1: guys did, and bearing in mind they are any allegations
Speaker 1: at this stage, did you notice a shift, the change
Speaker 1: from the perception of the public when these allegations came out.
Speaker 2: So I've been living overseas for a little bit, so
Speaker 2: I didn't see a shift in the public when I
Speaker 2: have been back in Australia. Really the highlight is Ben
Speaker 2: Roberts Smith. So whenever that comes up and I have
Speaker 2: interactions with the public and they find out where my background,
Speaker 2: they're very supportive. Most of the public and this is
Speaker 2: what we found out with the film as well as
Speaker 2: general public are supporting us, and so this narrative is
Speaker 2: just from a very small part of the media and
Speaker 2: some of the public who they're ideologically predisposed to be
Speaker 2: against war of warfare, and so generally I hadn't noticed it,
Speaker 2: but I've felt it because I've seen it and obviously
Speaker 2: it's close to me. So you do pick up on
Speaker 2: these things from the media, and so I think it
Speaker 2: is felt throughout our community. And I've noticed what it's
Speaker 2: done the guys and the allegations and some of the
Speaker 2: subpoenas and obviously gag or put on people when they're
Speaker 2: involved with ongoing investigations, and it's just diminished them and
Speaker 2: they're sort of sitting there with this sort of damicles
Speaker 2: over their head. Just waiting in chronic stress just grinds
Speaker 2: guys down. You've got Tier one operators who are significantly
Speaker 2: diminished and just shells of their former And I went
Speaker 2: through some issues as well myself. Well, seeing seeing what
Speaker 2: it does to your mates really is one of the
Speaker 2: biggest issues.
Speaker 1: I think if you've been at the sharp end of
Speaker 1: the sphere like you guys were in the war that was.
Speaker 1: I think it's the longest running conflict Australia has been
Speaker 1: involved in a war zone. So there's enough damage that's done.
Speaker 1: You don't go the war coming back the same person
Speaker 1: that there's damage done. And something that really hit home
Speaker 1: to me that you mentioned, and I can relate to
Speaker 1: it in part where you said, where these allegations have
Speaker 1: been made people that had served overseas, mates that they
Speaker 1: relied upon aren't allowed to talk to each other because
Speaker 1: of subpoenas and different things and restrictions. That must add
Speaker 1: exponentially the pressure of not only dealing with coming back
Speaker 1: from war, but then dealing with the allegations.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean it's a classic interrogation isolation tactic
Speaker 2: where you put pressure on people and we know what
Speaker 2: isolation does two people and you've been involved with the
Speaker 2: Royal Commission into Veteran Suicide and that isolation is a
Speaker 2: massive impact upon mental health and increase his chance of
Speaker 2: suicidality for a start. So the authorities know this and
Speaker 2: they still go and do it to us and isolate
Speaker 2: We can talk and tay Olie Schultz because his name
Speaker 2: has been out in the public and he's the only
Speaker 2: one that's ever been charged, yes, and so yeah, he's
Speaker 2: been isolated from all of the guys, really.
Speaker 1: And that adds to adds so much pressure. And if
Speaker 1: I reference police matters, I always think what you guys
Speaker 1: have been through is policing, and what you guys have
Speaker 1: been through is on steroids compared to that. But when
Speaker 1: I felt foul of the police and allegations were made,
Speaker 1: I was isolated from the police. I wasn't allowed to
Speaker 1: talk to any police officer, and anyone that did talk
Speaker 1: to me was criticized. Some were transferred out of units
Speaker 1: because they were associated with me. And that isolation does
Speaker 1: add to the pressure of it. And you're in this
Speaker 1: world of going, what the fuck's what's going on?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And there's only so long you can put up
Speaker 2: with that, Yeah, yeah, Yeah, And as you found out firsthand. Yeah,
Speaker 2: well yeah, they did play those tactics right back on
Speaker 2: their own people's Yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 1: It is crazy. And also when there's allegations that are
Speaker 1: made that I know with the Police Royal Commission in
Speaker 1: the police corruption there were things that were uncovered, and yeah,
Speaker 1: things that needed to be addressed. But I remember a
Speaker 1: deputy commissioner coming out and saying that after that Royal Commission,
Speaker 1: I was a detective and I didn't get caught up
Speaker 1: in the Royal Commission, and I was proud of the
Speaker 1: work I did, and I was proud of the work
Speaker 1: that people I was working with the way they conducted themselves.
Speaker 1: And then you had a deputy commission to come out
Speaker 1: and say all the techniques are a disgrace and they
Speaker 1: should be sent back to uniform. That pissed me off,
Speaker 1: and that pissed me off for about twenty years. I
Speaker 1: made the point of really pushing the detective barrow and
Speaker 1: how dare you say that of all detectives?
Speaker 2: Yeh, it becomes personal. And I think interestingly the CDF
Speaker 2: Campbell came out and apologized to Afghanistan, for the Afghan people,
Speaker 2: for all of the injustice or improprieties. I can't remember
Speaker 2: the exact words, but he apologize for any war crimes
Speaker 2: that we committed when there's been nothing proven. It's just
Speaker 2: all allegations are blank and as you alluded to, a
Speaker 2: blanket cast of allegations or guilt, and so all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, you're all guilty, presumed guilty until proven innocence,
Speaker 2: whereas the opposite of what it's supposed to be. And
Speaker 2: so you guys haven't got due process. Yeah, and neither
Speaker 2: have we. And it seems to be something with government
Speaker 2: hierarchies that I'm willing to throw their people under the
Speaker 2: bus for some sort of personal gain. And I don't
Speaker 2: know what the motivations are, and I don't understand it either.
Speaker 1: I want to talk about you and your extraordinary career
Speaker 1: and the things that things that you've done, and I
Speaker 1: think it's pretty amazing. So just let me roat some
Speaker 1: of this stuff out. You join the Army in nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety three. You're in the SAS from two thousand and
Speaker 1: three to twenty fifteen. You've provided training and consultation for
Speaker 1: military law enforcement and African wildlife consultation. Soon you operate
Speaker 1: domestically and in conjunction with Australian Federal Police and State Police.
Speaker 1: You've worked in Southeast Asia and the Middle East. You
Speaker 1: delivered training for K nine units to La County Sheriff's Department,
Speaker 1: swat LAPD, Swedish Police, Danish Police, European Special Forces and
Speaker 1: Wildlife Ranger units throughout Africa. That's why I bought Spiking.
Speaker 1: I want to see if we can get him a job.
Speaker 1: He's been free lading for too long. Assisted teaching in
Speaker 1: Sweden to autistic spectrum diagnosed children. You even worked as
Speaker 1: a movie animal trainer, ensuring dogs were trained for their
Speaker 1: various roles. That's a job for Spike. Your academic qualifications
Speaker 1: include Master of Business Administration Advanced to Planner in Public
Speaker 1: Safety Emergency Management, the Plomer and Work Health and Safety,
Speaker 1: the Planer of Business Certificate for and Training and Assessment
Speaker 1: rya Professional day skipper license, and of course you've got
Speaker 1: your private pilot's license. You can fly a plane as well. Mate.
Speaker 1: That is a lot to do, and I wanted to
Speaker 1: put that out because I want people to understand who
Speaker 1: you are and when we're talking. But that's a hell
Speaker 1: of a lot of things to have done.
Speaker 2: That's my adhd I think right, which I do have
Speaker 2: it clearly, yeah, and slightly on the spectrum. But these
Speaker 2: things are actual superpowers, and we put it out there
Speaker 2: in society that these things are terrible to have. But
Speaker 2: if you allow these people to find find what interests
Speaker 2: them and go for it, then I guess that's what happens.
Speaker 1: Channel, channel and direction.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think you can probably relate to a
Speaker 2: lot of that with your people. Call you obsessed with
Speaker 2: your job, and then that extra links that you'll go to,
Speaker 2: And that's that's so where it ends up.
Speaker 1: It quite often separates, it, doesn't it. And when you've
Speaker 1: got a passion for something, passion with perspective, but the
Speaker 1: passion for something and you enjoy it and you've got
Speaker 1: an inquiring mind, that does push it that little bit further,
Speaker 1: doesn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's not like I set out to do
Speaker 2: any of that. It just it just happened. And so
Speaker 2: allow people to do what what interests them and go
Speaker 2: with it, maybe enable them and guide them, and obviously
Speaker 2: you'll follow follow your moral compass and and here we.
Speaker 1: Are, Well, that's it's interesting too, And maybe it's the
Speaker 1: way you positive outlook on things like adhd. I hear
Speaker 1: so many people use that as an excuse and you're saying, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's my superpower. It points me in the direction that
Speaker 1: drives me. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, there was issues growing up back in the seventies ages.
Speaker 2: Nobody really knew what this was. And so you're just
Speaker 2: that kid that's always hanging off the chandeliers.
Speaker 1: The little shit that's causing problems.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's pretty much what I became and identified
Speaker 2: as for years. And so you know we're here about
Speaker 2: coppers and crims not too similar. And I think it
Speaker 2: could have gone eat a way for me. And I
Speaker 2: think if I was growing up today with cameras on phones,
Speaker 2: I don't know if i'd have been even allowed to
Speaker 2: join the defense force and say that would have pushed
Speaker 2: me in not so wholesome direction. And so because I
Speaker 2: grew up always wanted to be a soldier and you're
Speaker 2: playing with guns, getting that stick out and that's a
Speaker 2: good stick, and so I always wanted to join the military.
Speaker 2: You know, without that, I dare say it would have
Speaker 2: gone the other way. I did end up bouncing for
Speaker 2: a little while in Melbourne and rubbing shoulders with criminal.
Speaker 1: Elements to drag you in the world.
Speaker 2: And yeah, well I did get in a spot of
Speaker 2: botic side and made he got locked up in perse
Speaker 2: once I joined the regiment, and friend said, oh, someone
Speaker 2: so he's in jail ere and go and visit him.
Speaker 2: So I linked up with a mate of his who's
Speaker 2: in the Outlaw Motorcycle Gang and went and visited him.
Speaker 2: And I think when Benji Venaman got knocked, they was
Speaker 2: looking to do his background and he was visiting this guy,
Speaker 2: and so who else is visiting him? And there's an
Speaker 2: essays operator with Outlaw Motorcycle Gang guys. I got called
Speaker 2: into headquarters and what's going on here? Maybe I'm going
Speaker 2: to get a medal. I walked in there and I
Speaker 2: saw their faces. I thought, I got a medal today,
Speaker 2: And yeah, I was sitting there with a cloud over
Speaker 2: my head for a year while I had investstigation went on. Fortunately, Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I did bring that on myself to associating with damage.
Speaker 2: So there's always that tendency there, and yeah, it could
Speaker 2: have gone either way. And even when I was in
Speaker 2: the regiments, I see still but I just decided, well,
Speaker 2: this is what I want to go. So I cut
Speaker 2: all those ties.
Speaker 1: Your childhood where did you Where did you grow.
Speaker 2: Up central Victoria? Yep, in the twenty acre farm about
Speaker 2: an hour north of Melbourne. So it's a geographical center
Speaker 2: of Victoria. Riding horses and playing with a dog, and
Speaker 2: so because of that, adhd a little bit of spectrum stuff.
Speaker 2: I was just always in trouble, so I would gravitate
Speaker 2: out onto the outside and hang out with dogs and horses,
Speaker 2: and so that's where I'm affinity for animals and that
Speaker 2: connection came from. And lo and behold thirty years later
Speaker 2: on heading up the dog capability at the regiment. So
Speaker 2: that that was really the serendill An interesting early days
Speaker 2: and carried all all the way through and the military space.
Speaker 2: The grandfather Blue Reata, they wrote a book about him.
Speaker 2: He's got the Military Cross and a military medal from
Speaker 2: World War Two. So bit of a legend there, and
Speaker 2: he was quite a mentor to me. So that was
Speaker 2: your grandfather grandfather mom's side. Okay, he always said all
Speaker 2: of their firstborn were a little bit crazy, and so
Speaker 2: that was he's telling me about my mum when I
Speaker 2: was ten, and so I think it's been passed on
Speaker 2: through his genes. When you came back from the war,
Speaker 2: got passed on, but I think you felt a little
Speaker 2: bit responsible for that, so did you.
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering the dynamics with your mum growing up
Speaker 1: with a dad that was a fighting soldier, did she
Speaker 1: have concerns about you following down that path.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Mom and dad did because.
Speaker 1: They were assumed the impact it had on your grandfather.
Speaker 2: I would the magine, Well, I don't know if they
Speaker 2: people understood that. When you're growing up with it, you
Speaker 2: just say, God, that's that's dad, and you know, but
Speaker 2: then they've been brought up by people who have been
Speaker 2: through World War Two, so you know there's got to
Speaker 2: be an impact there and whether they recognized it or not.
Speaker 2: But then I think the big factor was Vietnam. You
Speaker 2: know what they saw going on in Vietnam because it
Speaker 2: was their generation.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: Dad had hemophilia, so blood clotting problem, so he got
Speaker 2: called up. I said, no, you can't, can't come. That's
Speaker 2: going to be an issue down range. So he never went.
Speaker 2: But they saw what friends didud to friends and what
Speaker 2: went on during the Vietnam War and how they were
Speaker 2: treated when they came back too, and so you know
Speaker 2: you don't want that for your kid. All I ever
Speaker 2: wanted to do was join the military, and they tried
Speaker 2: to steer me into university, and I was just a
Speaker 2: disruptive influence in class, although I didn't enjoy school at all,
Speaker 2: and and even I went back to UNI a couple
Speaker 2: of years ago on a military scholarship, and I was
Speaker 2: still a disruptive influence. Nothing's changed.
Speaker 1: How old were you when you joined the army?
Speaker 2: Twenty one? Okay, So I got put off a little
Speaker 2: bit by their steering me into UNI, But in hindsight,
Speaker 2: it was just always going to happen.
Speaker 1: And basic training, once you're in there, did it fit
Speaker 1: like a glob for you? You felt this is where
Speaker 1: I belong.
Speaker 2: Yeah, recruit training, they get you in there and strip
Speaker 2: you of all yourself and break you down and build
Speaker 2: you up. I was a little bit resistant to that.
Speaker 2: So the first few weeks, first eight weeks in a
Speaker 2: spot of bother here and there and not getting good reports.
Speaker 2: But by the end I'd attain the standard they wanted
Speaker 2: and went on and then we went to infantry training
Speaker 2: and that's it. Thoroughly enjoyed that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. My son did the gap year in the army,
Speaker 1: so just after he left school and the gap year
Speaker 1: is sign up for twelve months, can't it deployed overseas,
Speaker 1: But the Army's got them for twelve months, and I
Speaker 1: think the trade off is the guys and girls signing
Speaker 1: up for that get a good wage and enjoy the
Speaker 1: army life. Then they leave or the army thinks will
Speaker 1: convert them if we keep them there long enough. But
Speaker 1: I remember the change of my son going down to
Speaker 1: I put it down to the best twelve months parenting
Speaker 1: I ever did, because I saw the change in him.
Speaker 1: He went down there and he went to UNI after
Speaker 1: that year. But if he went to UNI at that
Speaker 1: stage he wore a stuffed up like I don't think
Speaker 1: he was ready for it. He went to the Army,
Speaker 1: as you said, break him down, come out, and he
Speaker 1: went from Kapuka then the infantry came out a completely
Speaker 1: different person.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it changes you look, it does, and it built
Speaker 2: me up to achieve anyone of my looks or intellect
Speaker 2: should not expect to be able to achieve. Yeah, it's great.
Speaker 2: And I got friends here in Europe who Sweden, they
Speaker 2: used to have the National service and we didn't like
Speaker 2: doing it at first, but then two years they came
Speaker 2: out and they said, in hindsight, it's the best thing
Speaker 2: they ever did that set them up for life and
Speaker 2: gave him those structure and discipline and values that the
Speaker 2: military does. Shove down your throat the hierarchy. Don't emulate
Speaker 2: that always. What that gives you is just amazing, I think,
Speaker 2: and I fully support anybody going into the military, even
Speaker 2: if you just do your four years, it gives you
Speaker 2: life skills.
Speaker 1: Well in this day and age, and you know, lots
Speaker 1: of people have lost their way for a variety of reasons.
Speaker 1: And I just saw the impact it had on the
Speaker 1: some and I thought it was the best thing for him.
Speaker 1: And he's kept that discipline all the way through. And yeah,
Speaker 1: change the person. He isn't a different outlook.
Speaker 2: On life to good on him. That's pretty cool.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you've done, you went in, you.
Speaker 2: Go to a recruiting for defense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well when I went, when I went down there,
Speaker 1: and I was enjoyed. Actually it was funny because one
Speaker 1: of the my son had trained with the father. It
Speaker 1: was a father and son team that basically came in
Speaker 1: and he said that would you And I've always wanted
Speaker 1: to join the army. Maybe it was too late, but
Speaker 1: Jake was went through basic training with the father, then
Speaker 1: serve with the son or something something something weird, but
Speaker 1: yeah with it it changed. But after you've done your
Speaker 1: basic training, you you went to infantry. What where were
Speaker 1: you attached to it?
Speaker 2: I wanted to go to Parachute Britain, so it's three
Speaker 2: rur back in the time day, just down down in Holsworth.
Speaker 2: So I spent a couple of years there and then
Speaker 2: dadok crooked. So I went down to Melbourne to to
Speaker 2: Commando Company second Commander and came off a motorbike there
Speaker 2: and broke the pelvis. So I thought that that hurts, Yeah,
Speaker 2: because I wanted to go to the ESA. Yes and yeah,
Speaker 2: then broken pelvis. They said, well you're not going to
Speaker 2: run ever again, You'll be lucky to walk, so well
Speaker 2: we proved them wrong. Yeah, so that put things back
Speaker 2: a little bit. And then Team More came up and
Speaker 2: I was starting to get fit again, and so I
Speaker 2: went off with two Commando Team More in two thousand
Speaker 2: and one. Then came back from that and I was
Speaker 2: also wrestling and I tried out for the Australian team.
Speaker 2: Conwell's yeah, look I didn't make team was probably just
Speaker 2: as well. Because the standard of wrestling in Australia's a
Speaker 2: bit lower than overseas.
Speaker 1: If all the ones with just the beards and the mustache,
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, the scary ones.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Eastern Bloc guys.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you don't want to wrestle.
Speaker 2: No, So I was fortunate make the team and then
Speaker 2: that was two thousand and two. Then I did selection
Speaker 2: do three.
Speaker 1: Okay, your deployment in Team More, that was the first
Speaker 1: time we've been deployed in en mass like that the
Speaker 1: military in Team More. Tell us about that experience from
Speaker 1: I should clarify from Vietnam, it's been a bit of
Speaker 1: a quiet time.
Speaker 2: I think we had a wander in there as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: that was an interesting one, and so I think we
Speaker 2: were still doing Vietnam joels and it was just a
Speaker 2: different war. So learning where you can and can't go
Speaker 2: on what to do was interesting and it was largely
Speaker 2: a peacekeeping There were a few contacts here and there.
Speaker 2: It was kind of settled down by two thousand and one.
Speaker 1: You've been in the army since ninety three, training, practicing,
Speaker 1: getting ready that deployment was that something you look forward to, Yeah,
Speaker 1: actually put in in the practice. What you've been training for.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and so even though what's happened to us from Afghanistan,
Speaker 2: I'm glad and I feel myself consider myself lest that
Speaker 2: I got the opportunity to go down range on operations
Speaker 2: serve the country. But you get to scratch that itch
Speaker 2: to I can't imagine what it would have been like
Speaker 2: for the guys carrying that tort through the late seventies
Speaker 2: into the eighties that never got to go anywhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and when people say that it's misconstrued that you're
Speaker 1: warmonger you want to go the war, I don't look
Speaker 1: at it that way. Perhaps you could shed some light
Speaker 1: on it. But you're trained for something. This is the
Speaker 1: role that you've signed up for, and when you get
Speaker 1: it's like, on a lesser scale being a football player
Speaker 1: and not getting to play a game, training, training, and
Speaker 1: never get out on the field. So I can understand
Speaker 1: the desire to actually put all your training into practice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe you join up to go and serve
Speaker 2: the country and do these things. And it's a little
Speaker 2: bit of a boy's own adventure too, So young men
Speaker 2: going and testing themselves in DNA, and so it's not
Speaker 2: like you're a warmonger. In fact, you went over there
Speaker 2: to do good, to protect people while serving the country.
Speaker 2: So it's kind of an honorable cause you're going over
Speaker 2: there to do the thinking. People say, oh, how many
Speaker 2: people would you kill the billet? Yeah, okay, there is
Speaker 2: a number, but I think it's more important. There's a
Speaker 2: large number also the people that I could have killed
Speaker 2: and justified but didn't. And so we're there to rise
Speaker 2: above the chaos and the psychopaths that are out there.
Speaker 2: Because once again people say, oh, you're getting accused of
Speaker 2: war crimes. It's war you go over there and do anything.
Speaker 2: Well that that's not true. You know, we're over there
Speaker 2: and taking a higher moral ground. You know, as you
Speaker 2: would have experienced with the coppers. You're out there to
Speaker 2: do a job and provide a bit of stability because
Speaker 2: some of the people you're dealing with, you you would
Speaker 2: spit on them and you want to put a bullet
Speaker 2: in the head, but you don't. And there would have
Speaker 2: been times, no doubt for you and so for me,
Speaker 2: that you could have done it and got away with it.
Speaker 2: That's that's not what we're there for, because then you
Speaker 2: know it's Nietzsche's abyss. You know, or those that deal
Speaker 2: with monsters be where are becoming a monster? And so
Speaker 2: that's that's what my answer is to that one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I get what you're saying, and I can relate
Speaker 1: that I did some jobs in policing and it was
Speaker 1: about the restraint that you showed. And quite often I
Speaker 1: have people, you know, you locked up this person, what
Speaker 1: did you do? Did you bash them or whatever? That's
Speaker 1: not what it's about, like you're lowered to their standard.
Speaker 1: If you drop down to their.
Speaker 2: Stands, Yeah, you become part of the problem.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2: And then and then this is where we end up
Speaker 2: with royal commissions. Yeah, yeah, because that stuff it always
Speaker 2: comes out.
Speaker 1: You mentioned moral compass, and I've always said that because
Speaker 1: I was in organized crime major crime investigation before the
Speaker 1: Royal Commission, so as in the thick of it where
Speaker 1: things were going, and the moral compass is so important
Speaker 1: to hang on to your moral compass, and it can
Speaker 1: slide you don't keep it, keep it in check. So
Speaker 1: that's an important thing to hang on to, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it is difficult, absolutely, And so when you
Speaker 2: look at what the government asked of us, you're going
Speaker 2: back to the same area doing the same job. You're
Speaker 2: coming back and the purpose you've locked up, the terrorists
Speaker 2: we locked up have been released. You're taking some losses
Speaker 2: and going and doing a job we believe we did
Speaker 2: a really good job, and not having much of an
Speaker 2: outcome or effect. Essentially what the conditions the government putting
Speaker 2: us through or we were going under. Maybe not the government,
Speaker 2: they were asking defense for an outcome. So military hierarchy,
Speaker 2: and there's Burnsy in the movie in the documentary said
Speaker 2: we won every battle, and so we gave the hierarchy
Speaker 2: every chance is to succeed. But here we are. So
Speaker 2: essentially those conditions are very very similar to what the
Speaker 2: hunter kill missions in Vietnam were. And you've got these
Speaker 2: soldiers going through taking hits, going over the same area,
Speaker 2: doing the same job, not having an enduring effect while
Speaker 2: taking losses, and so you end up with the Malee massacre. Now,
Speaker 2: I don't know if everyone's form me with.
Speaker 1: That familiar with the US troops and the village inn.
Speaker 2: And so you're taking those hits and then all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, a good idea, the psychopath in the troop
Speaker 2: I says, let's do the village. And this is where
Speaker 2: good leadership comes in and no, we're not going to
Speaker 2: do the village. And so I think the conditions we
Speaker 2: were put under and the fact that we didn't do
Speaker 2: that is testament, which then when you come back and
Speaker 2: get accused of doing that, is it hurts.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does. We'll talk in more detail later on
Speaker 1: in the podcast about the leadership and their reaction. But leadership,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think leadership is lacking in so
Speaker 1: many different areas. And I can relate with police. Hard job.
Speaker 1: If it go out and do it, do all the
Speaker 1: hard work. If it's a success, you have all these
Speaker 1: people standing beside you. If there's a hint of problems,
Speaker 1: everyone distanced themselves and I got sick of that. I
Speaker 1: saw it in the police and again i'd reference at
Speaker 1: a lesser scale than what you guys were facing. And
Speaker 1: the other thing in the service in Afghanistan. In the
Speaker 1: few people who I've met that were in the SAS,
Speaker 1: I was surprised by the amount of deployments. And it
Speaker 1: was only having a one on one conversation where it
Speaker 1: really dawned on me how often new blokes were put
Speaker 1: down range. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Look, I've only just been able to admit in the
Speaker 2: last couple of years that maybe I did go a
Speaker 2: few too many times. So a in case where in
Speaker 2: two thousand and seven we were hunting Ronaldo and Team
Speaker 2: Or after he killed all those coppers and the soldiers,
Speaker 2: and so I went with one squadron to Team Or.
Speaker 2: That was January through to April and came back from there.
Speaker 2: I was up with a dog as a dog Hewler,
Speaker 2: and then I was seconded to three squadron and we
Speaker 2: went three weeks later we went off to Afghanistan a decompressor. No, well,
Speaker 2: I was very happy to do that at the time too,
Speaker 2: so you know, I think maybe the high rocky, we
Speaker 2: need to protect us from ourselves sometimes. And then two
Speaker 2: squadron came over to Afghanistan to replace three squadron, but
Speaker 2: they didn't have a dog Hawnler, so I stayed on.
Speaker 2: So I think I was in Australia for maybe four
Speaker 2: weeks that year, but I deployed bit all three squadrons,
Speaker 2: so I'm pretty proud of that too. And then from
Speaker 2: there I just kept rotating in twenty seven, eight eleven, nine,
Speaker 2: eleven twelve.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we talked about that the other day, and I
Speaker 1: use the analogy and I think it's apped for it.
Speaker 1: Then that you're a soldier. If there's something happening, you'll
Speaker 1: put your hand up for it. That's the in the
Speaker 1: nature of the makeup of you. Someone above you needs
Speaker 1: to look and go hold it. We do need this
Speaker 1: bloat to rest, We do need this bloat to just
Speaker 1: step back, clear his head before we deploy him again.
Speaker 1: But you're not never going to do that. That's that's
Speaker 1: the people above. And I think we use the analogy
Speaker 1: of a trainer in the fighter's corner. Do you want
Speaker 1: to still go out? The fighter is always going to
Speaker 1: say yes, it's up for the trainer. They say, nay,
Speaker 1: you've had nothing to throw the.
Speaker 2: Towel in for him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, and
Speaker 2: the fighter will get angry. And if they'd have told
Speaker 2: me that back in the day, I would have been
Speaker 2: pissed off too. Yeah, only toys out of the COT
Speaker 2: I understand.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's let's wind it back a little bit. The
Speaker 1: selection course for the sas what. Yeah, it's notoriously hard.
Speaker 1: The success rate miniscule compared to the amount of people
Speaker 1: that try out. And I should point out the people
Speaker 1: that try out for the selection course rate themselves to
Speaker 1: start with, It's not just Joe average. It's people that
Speaker 1: have been or should be training for it, pre pairing
Speaker 1: for it, and think they've got the attributes for it.
Speaker 1: What was it about you that thought I can do this?
Speaker 2: I don't know, It's just it was something that I'd
Speaker 2: always wanted to do from a little kid. So now
Speaker 2: I've spoken about my grandfather earlier. You know, he was
Speaker 2: commissioned in Egypt or some Middle East and came back
Speaker 2: to Australia and was sent off with the militia the
Speaker 2: reserves to Boganville where he wanted to join the Independent
Speaker 2: Company so Special Forces and some of his mates did,
Speaker 2: but they said no, we need experienced officers. And so
Speaker 2: that was always something that was interesting me. So you
Speaker 2: want to serve at the highest level that you can,
Speaker 2: and the ESAs was always it. So I grew up
Speaker 2: says magazines and books and military history, so it was
Speaker 2: always a goal. And so it was that was really
Speaker 2: my why, and so it was never like I'm a
Speaker 2: bit worried about this or I'm not going to do it.
Speaker 2: So it never really entered my mind. And this is
Speaker 2: where I'd say to people, I want to do selections
Speaker 2: and go, well, what's your why it's And it's a
Speaker 2: really interesting question. Well why it's a job. You can
Speaker 2: do any job for money, you really need to have
Speaker 2: it deep, deep, trenched entrenched in you. And so I
Speaker 2: went over there and said I'm here, I'm going to
Speaker 2: do this and going to and they take me or
Speaker 2: they don't. And I've done everything that I can beforehand
Speaker 2: to prep before it. And if in fact, you get
Speaker 2: this withdraw own request form and they give that to you,
Speaker 2: and I chucked it out. I'm here for three weeks.
Speaker 2: Whatever you need to do, you want me to do,
Speaker 2: and if you want to get rid of me, yeah,
Speaker 2: so be.
Speaker 1: It as a statement of it, then your back pocket,
Speaker 1: get rid of it.
Speaker 2: The mindset, I think I can't remember. Was it burnt
Speaker 2: all these ships?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah yeah, ancient history.
Speaker 2: Ancient history burned all the ships. So it gets the
Speaker 2: soldiers to fight.
Speaker 1: We've got nowhere to go now. Yeah, it's a good mentality.
Speaker 1: The perception is it's very physical, which it is, and
Speaker 1: you have to have mental toughness, but there's a lot
Speaker 1: more that goes into it. There's a psychological component. I
Speaker 1: would imagine that going through that three week selection course.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so look, I think anybody can finish selection. Where
Speaker 2: do you get picked up or not is a different
Speaker 2: kettle of fish. And soy a lot of the guys
Speaker 2: computer skills trainability. So you know, you get a whole
Speaker 2: lot of lessons in the first few days that you're
Speaker 2: there without much sleep. Then you're expected to recall those
Speaker 2: skills at different points throughout the course and replicate, like
Speaker 2: display those skills and you know you've just had a
Speaker 2: forty minute lesson on something, then replicate it over and
Speaker 2: over again with no sleep and food. And I remember
Speaker 2: setting up a Pulley system that we'd been taught early
Speaker 2: earlier in the course, and this is later in the course.
Speaker 2: We've had no sleep for a few days and no food,
Speaker 2: set it up, pulling a vehicle along, and then you've
Speaker 2: got to reset and reset it again, and then went
Speaker 2: to do it the third time and I've forgotten how
Speaker 2: to do it. So the sleep deprivation and every it
Speaker 2: just has that effect on it. So being able to
Speaker 2: replicate those skills to a certain extent is really important
Speaker 2: and tough too, because you know what what lack of
Speaker 2: sleep does to.
Speaker 1: You, just well under that, under that pressure and lack
Speaker 1: of sleep. It strips you down to its roorus, isn't it.
Speaker 1: And that's where the character of a person would come out,
Speaker 1: and the skill set and everything that you need.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's that's where you're truly exposed. And you
Speaker 2: have people that really just wanted to do it because
Speaker 2: they thought that it was a good idea or make
Speaker 2: somebody else proud, but it's not really something they wanted
Speaker 2: to do. And then they start going, oh, look, I
Speaker 2: don't want to do this anymore my family. You didn't
Speaker 2: think about that before, but these sort of things start
Speaker 2: to come up. And then once you get exposed, where
Speaker 2: do you recognize it yourself that you don't belong there?
Speaker 2: The staff recognized for you belong there or not pretty quickly.
Speaker 1: And you've made an interesting point. But I see where
Speaker 1: you're coming from in that what do you want to
Speaker 1: do it?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 1: I imagine how cool I'm in the SAS that people would
Speaker 1: be driven by that, what do you want to do
Speaker 1: or want to be in the sas? But without really
Speaker 1: thinking about it, but your mentality if I'm understanding that
Speaker 1: here is you were going to be in the SAS.
Speaker 1: This is what I've always wanted to do and failure
Speaker 1: was not an option for you.
Speaker 2: No, No, I had done a clearance diver selection and pasted.
Speaker 2: Previously I had to transfer into the Navy, but that's
Speaker 2: because so Command had lost my application for SAS and gone,
Speaker 2: stuff is I'm going to go and do this? And
Speaker 2: then they found it and said, oh, you're on pre
Speaker 2: selection in a few weeks, and then selections a couple
Speaker 2: weeks after that. Right, be Fortunately I was pretty fit.
Speaker 1: Okay, you got through selection, but that's not the end
Speaker 1: of you can't rest on your laurels. Then a lot
Speaker 1: of the training starts at that point.
Speaker 2: No, so then you've got an eighteen months hotline to
Speaker 2: go through.
Speaker 1: Quite I've been told to ignore you. I'm going to
Speaker 1: put it in practice. He breaks me down.
Speaker 2: Okay, oh yeah, that's a superpower. Where was I?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: So the selection course and then then it's about an
Speaker 2: eighteen month pipeline two before you get into the squadron.
Speaker 2: And so you've got all these different skill sets. So
Speaker 2: some are physical and then you've got mental ones. So
Speaker 2: I did medical, other guys to comp coms and driving, shooting, patrolling,
Speaker 2: counter terrorist studio, urban ops, yeah, CQB. And so at
Speaker 2: any point you can fail one of those and you
Speaker 2: might get invited back the next year, but it sort
Speaker 2: of sets you back till the next year, so it's constant.
Speaker 2: And so maintaining that focus and that the fitness without
Speaker 2: getting injured, and then assimilating those lessons and presenting the
Speaker 2: instructors with those skill sets to the required standard is
Speaker 2: it was the best couple of years of your life too,
Speaker 2: because you've got that one group of guys that you're
Speaker 2: always with and so it's quite a bonding experience. And
Speaker 2: so these friendships are forged under under under pressure.
Speaker 1: When you went for selection and got in the sas too,
Speaker 1: we were at war, so it was fairly clear where
Speaker 1: you would be going and where you would be deployed.
Speaker 1: That wasn't a case of okay, I'm going to practice
Speaker 1: and train and train, You're going to be deployed. Did
Speaker 1: that cross your mind? And you weighed all that.
Speaker 2: Up, couldn't wait, couldn't wait to get there? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: Now maybe that's not such a smart thing, but I
Speaker 2: wish for I do understand, yeah, and so yeah, you
Speaker 2: just want to get out there and put that I've
Speaker 2: done the training and I want to get after it.
Speaker 1: So how many times were you deployed in Afghanistan?
Speaker 2: Six or seven?
Speaker 1: With the essays, Yeah, and towards the latter part, you're
Speaker 1: as a commander patrol commanders.
Speaker 2: Too, I see. And then then kind of after I
Speaker 2: got promoted after our last rotation to patrol commander set right, Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: then I had surgery and I got two new hips, right,
Speaker 2: and that kind.
Speaker 1: Of you've moved around all right for two new hips.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well they're the best joints in my body.
Speaker 1: Upgraded, yep, graded, Okay, your first deployment, and I look,
Speaker 1: we're talking light about this, but I think something that
Speaker 1: came across in the documentary Bravery and Betrayal was the
Speaker 1: work that you're doing, Like it wasn't you weren't going
Speaker 1: over there and something might happen. You were going look
Speaker 1: looking for something to happen. That was the nature of
Speaker 1: your duties over there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we were hunting people essentially, So you
Speaker 2: don't go out there to avoid trouble, I guess. And
Speaker 2: at the start, you go outside the gate and you
Speaker 2: get into a gunfight, and then you have to go
Speaker 2: further to get a gunfight. So we were having a
Speaker 2: stabilizing effect which then enabled the regular forces to come
Speaker 2: in and start doing that mentoring and reconstructing. At the
Speaker 2: early days, we were doing a lot of reconnaissance with
Speaker 2: the vehicles and driving all around all over the countryside
Speaker 2: getting some situational awareness. And then as the bubble expanded
Speaker 2: of stability I guess you call it around Taran count,
Speaker 2: that sort of evolved into the kill capture missions where
Speaker 2: we were targeting hierarchy, and the American helicopters really really
Speaker 2: helped us with that. When we didn't have them. We
Speaker 2: drive out and you know, park up and then walk
Speaker 2: to ten kilometers to the target, so we're sort of
Speaker 2: offset and then walk in.
Speaker 1: So and that was again played out in the documentary.
Speaker 1: But initially you had vehicles that you had to get
Speaker 1: to your locations, and then you got the American helicopters
Speaker 1: dropping you in closer.
Speaker 2: And so, as I said before, I was lucky that
Speaker 2: I was there for so many rotations early days because
Speaker 2: I got the CD the spike in in the IED.
Speaker 2: So they're changing tactics body enemy. They went from well
Speaker 2: we're getting our asses kicked in gunfights, so let's start
Speaker 2: laying IEDs. And so I was riding around on a
Speaker 2: six yel motorbike with a dog box on the back.
Speaker 2: So I was very cognizant of that that rise in
Speaker 2: the threat, and so I found I rode around the
Speaker 2: IEDs instead of over them. Basically your homemade explosive. So
Speaker 2: they get ammonium nitrate and some fuel oil and then
Speaker 2: they'll make up that goes high order explodes. They'll have
Speaker 2: an initiating charge within that, and so that'll be buried
Speaker 2: under the ground with a pressure plate that as you
Speaker 2: drive over it, it'll make the contact with the batteries
Speaker 2: and set the charge off. But I was in nine
Speaker 2: vehicle packets that had to hit i EDS. I got
Speaker 2: to see where they were put and start to understand it.
Speaker 2: And that's played out the next year when I was
Speaker 2: in the vehicle in front of Sean McCarthy. But I
Speaker 2: drove around that spot right. Unfortunately they didn't see where
Speaker 2: we went and then hit that I ed it.
Speaker 1: It is the nature of war where there would be
Speaker 1: a psychological impact with the EDS. I would imagine every
Speaker 1: Yeah you're driving and a gun battle, you see it coming,
Speaker 1: you know, but there's never downtime. Yeah, you're always at
Speaker 1: that hyper alert.
Speaker 2: Yeah, every bump you hit or you don't quite have
Speaker 2: the clearance and your scrape over something and everyone just
Speaker 2: and then you laugh at each other and continue on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I reckon the question, and I'm asking this, and
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people would ask the same.
Speaker 1: Your first contact when you're downrange and bullets are coming
Speaker 1: back at you, and that did you know how you're
Speaker 1: going to react? Or do you wonder how you get react?
Speaker 1: Because I hear a lot of people talk about I
Speaker 1: wonder how I'll react in that situation.
Speaker 2: Yes, I was quite overwhelming. Yeah, you don't kind of
Speaker 2: think about that, and then it happens. I guess you
Speaker 2: do wonder about it. Yeah, you're scared, but it's what
Speaker 2: you do when you're scared, and so that that training
Speaker 2: sort of kicks in and then you get it after it.
Speaker 2: And so this is where in the teams it's not
Speaker 2: about you, it's about the guys to the left and
Speaker 2: the right of and so you get over that initial
Speaker 2: fear for yourself and then you step up and do
Speaker 2: it for the guys around you, which then when you
Speaker 2: get out of the military, that does become a bit
Speaker 2: of a problem because you're not doing those things.
Speaker 1: I would imagine to that your first gun battle, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of adrenaline running. Yeah, next one not that
Speaker 1: as much, and you get conditioned to it, desensitized to it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think. I think, so you learned to zig
Speaker 2: and zag when you're supposed to as opposed to Yeah,
Speaker 2: the first one, what the hell's going on here? And
Speaker 2: you too, audles, Yeah, sitting where's that coming from?
Speaker 1: All?
Speaker 2: What's going on? And then you know, fast forward to
Speaker 2: twenty twelve where I remember I was in a close
Speaker 2: contact with the guy and he had to be dead
Speaker 2: the rights except I did the old neo from the
Speaker 2: matrix and just jump back to and the bullets just
Speaker 2: went stray through. But I remember everything just slowed down
Speaker 2: and I was kind of ended this flow state, and
Speaker 2: so that that was where you end up being in
Speaker 2: contact as opposed to in the first one, it's just
Speaker 2: headless chuck.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Can we talk deployments? How long? If it's not
Speaker 1: giving away any classified stuff, but how long would you
Speaker 1: be deployed?
Speaker 2: It's deployment, Yeah, four four to six months. Obviously there's
Speaker 2: back to back once in two thousand and seven for me,
Speaker 2: so a bit longer. Yeah, So about four four months
Speaker 2: mark you start to get a little bit weary, right,
Speaker 2: So that was perfect. But then you've got Americans going
Speaker 2: away for twelve months, and you've got Ambertaians are out
Speaker 2: there for six six months, and so it's you get
Speaker 2: to that four months mark. And I remember even we
Speaker 2: did the six months in team or after four months,
Speaker 2: you start to get a little bit jaded and vary
Speaker 2: and so losing that edge and.
Speaker 1: When mistakes are made. Get to that point and in
Speaker 1: that deployment the average deployment and I know the nature
Speaker 1: of the war changed over the years, but you were
Speaker 1: out and about. That wasn't sitting around for four months.
Speaker 1: And you get one outside the gates. You're going out
Speaker 1: all the.
Speaker 2: Time, no, yeah, constantly hunting. Yeah, And so as you
Speaker 2: come back de service reservice and then start getting ready
Speaker 2: for the next job. And even the kill capture ones
Speaker 2: where time sensitive where we'd find out where they were
Speaker 2: and wheels up and off you go. You come back
Speaker 2: and then we rebomb and get ready for the next
Speaker 2: job where it was that afternoon the next day wherever
Speaker 2: we'll find a target.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're out and about and that's I think
Speaker 1: that's why I would encourage people to have a look
Speaker 1: at this film, because I think there's a misconception of
Speaker 1: what happens over there and they see going to wall.
Speaker 1: But you guys were at it the whole.
Speaker 2: Time, even early days two thousand and seven, I was
Speaker 2: actually kicked off to the Commandos because OC said I
Speaker 2: don't have any use for dogs, and I went to
Speaker 2: the Commandos, which that company that was there at the
Speaker 2: time was my old peer group from when I went
Speaker 2: to Team or with them, and so they were all
Speaker 2: now next level up. And so a big shout out
Speaker 2: to those guys for taking me on and helping develop
Speaker 2: the capabilit Because that was still early days, and because
Speaker 2: I was the only dog handler. We were out in
Speaker 2: the desert for a few weeks maneuvering around, and each
Speaker 2: each night we would do a hit and so and
Speaker 2: then sometimes it'd be one during the day. So one
Speaker 2: platoon would go out down and do the job while
Speaker 2: the other stayed in overwatch. But I would flip flop
Speaker 2: between platoons and so me, my dog did done I
Speaker 2: think sixteen hits in fourteen days.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, really after that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it has to has to take it. Stop with
Speaker 1: the dogs. Tell me how they're used in that type
Speaker 1: of environment.
Speaker 2: So in the early age, we didn't really know what
Speaker 2: we were doing because we went and did an Air
Speaker 2: Force dog handler course and so came back, how do
Speaker 2: we use it in special Forces? And so played around
Speaker 2: with it. Eventually, as the capability matured, we would use
Speaker 2: them out in front of the teams as an early
Speaker 2: warning when we're moving through a complex terrain.
Speaker 1: So to give an example of people that don't understand,
Speaker 1: you're out with how many in the unit and just
Speaker 1: roughly of us and you've got the dog out front.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so in vegetation, so we can't see through it,
Speaker 2: but their senses can hear and smell, detect, detect the
Speaker 2: enemy or any explosives that may be out there. So
Speaker 2: they'll give a change in behavior on that.
Speaker 1: And when you're working with the dog, you pick up
Speaker 1: on that change of behavior. It might be the years
Speaker 1: prick up or whatever.
Speaker 2: Yes, they'll give a definite change in behavior. I'll duck
Speaker 2: off casing something. And actually guys, other guys, as we
Speaker 2: got used to working with the teams, they would be
Speaker 2: able to go, I think her dog's onto something here.
Speaker 2: So everybody started to really get into that space with
Speaker 2: the animals as we got more for me and started
Speaker 2: to know what we were doing too, and that that
Speaker 2: early warning out front saved my life, saved many other lives,
Speaker 2: like I couldn't tell you how many, And the amount
Speaker 2: of explosives they found or munitions out on the Battle
Speaker 2: of Space, not necessarily IED's were after that was more
Speaker 2: the explosive detection dogs because it's only limited number hours
Speaker 2: the training can do in one day, and so just
Speaker 2: having dual purpose dogs was quite quite a lot of training.
Speaker 2: So we would find weapons cases around the place.
Speaker 1: And how the dogs when the bullets start flying and
Speaker 1: the chaos of a gun battle.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're quite excitable. They didn't worry about and so
Speaker 2: my boy, he would get very excited. He wanted to
Speaker 2: get after it. So sometimes we'd be punching on in
Speaker 2: the middle of a gunfight. I'm dealing with the dog
Speaker 2: and trying to return fire. It's like, now, okay, yeah
Speaker 2: I'm not the only one. So yeah, people would be
Speaker 2: looking at the dog hand of fighting with these dogs,
Speaker 2: what the hell are you do it? Yeah, they didn't
Speaker 2: have a problem, and they actually raised up in tempo
Speaker 2: because I guess they could feel our state. It was
Speaker 2: elevated as well, and so they feed off that he did.
Speaker 1: What about the searching premises or whatever, you send the
Speaker 1: dogs in there in that environment as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, only if we were going in obviously, if we
Speaker 2: found an empty compound, we had the dogs could find explosives.
Speaker 2: So there's an empty compound, there's nobody in there in
Speaker 2: a suspect area, Well, potentially that's got IEDs and stuff
Speaker 2: like that in there. So we might lower the dogs
Speaker 2: over the wall and send them around with the camera
Speaker 2: and they you know, we did find some explosives in
Speaker 2: some places, and then we pull the dog back out
Speaker 2: and tull the EOD Explosive Ordinance Protection guys or disposal
Speaker 2: guys to there's something in that compound there. It's secure,
Speaker 2: there's no enemy in there. So yours boys, we're going
Speaker 2: to be standing back one hundred meters. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: And that's the other thing. Whenever I had a change
Speaker 2: in behavior and a dog, I would recall.
Speaker 1: Him and you would have one dog. You were the
Speaker 1: dog's handler, so that the dog didn't share handlers. You
Speaker 1: and the dog were the unit.
Speaker 2: That's it. Yeah, And when you got promoted, potentially your
Speaker 2: dog would would be passed on to somebody else if
Speaker 2: he's still operating. And then when it came to retirement
Speaker 2: age for the dog, the primary handler would have have
Speaker 2: first DIBs. But if your home life or whatever it
Speaker 2: wasn't able to accommodate a dog, and then it would
Speaker 2: go to the second handler. Somebody would always pick those
Speaker 2: those dogs up and take them home if they were
Speaker 2: if we deemed them suitable. We had one one dog, Rex.
Speaker 2: He's a little bit too loose and I've got a
Speaker 2: big still got a big scar. Yeah, he won the
Speaker 2: first round, but I got over the top. I've got
Speaker 2: a probably what you call a standing eight count, but
Speaker 2: came back for the second round. I got him. But
Speaker 2: actually we had a really good relationship after that. But yeah,
Speaker 2: he was just too loose for us to deem him
Speaker 2: suitable for retirement. He's actually been stuffed and he's in
Speaker 2: the museum at Sash right.
Speaker 1: Well, there's a bond with the dogs, isn't there. And
Speaker 1: I know with their casual it hits home very hard.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was like I've carried a couple of coffins
Speaker 2: and of your mates remained staunch for carrying the coffins
Speaker 2: of the dogs. It just just broke me. Yeah, feeling
Speaker 2: your voice now. Yeah, so they excuse me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, understood, Yeah, it's just yeah.
Speaker 2: We're responsible for them. They they and I do bang
Speaker 2: on about this, use this word. It's unconditional. They've just
Speaker 2: been chosen. They are awesome, and so they're there for us.
Speaker 2: You know that That part of the movie gets me
Speaker 2: just about every time.
Speaker 1: I think for all of us, it was I'm glad
Speaker 1: it was. It was dark. There was a lot of
Speaker 1: tears when the dog was lost. But I suppose they
Speaker 1: put total trust in you. That's that's the thing. You're
Speaker 1: You're they're looking after him and they're looking after you.
Speaker 2: That's it. They're dished out there hunting. It's no different
Speaker 2: training or operations. So going back to the gunfire, it
Speaker 2: doesn't matter to them.
Speaker 1: How did they go when they were back away from conflicts?
Speaker 1: Just when did they decompress? How did they decompress? And
Speaker 1: did they change personalities from the war dog to the
Speaker 1: just the chilled out dog.
Speaker 2: So yeah, and so that's where the clear signals and
Speaker 2: consistence he comes in from us. I don't know if
Speaker 2: you've seen the movie Dog Who Changed They really captured
Speaker 2: it very well. And so you know that that dog's
Speaker 2: handler went and knocked himself. So then the dogs without
Speaker 2: that bond, without the stability our dogs, you know, we'd
Speaker 2: come back and my old boy Risha, who the kennel
Speaker 2: Bank at Swanbourne is named after. Now, when I first
Speaker 2: got he, I remember, he's just eating his ways, trying
Speaker 2: to easy way through the cage. How are we going
Speaker 2: to do with this? And then we got told by
Speaker 2: the OC that we're not allowed to. You know, I
Speaker 2: got no interest in you. And as we evolved, the
Speaker 2: dogs became as a bought criteria if you don't have
Speaker 2: a dog in the fee. As we knew what we
Speaker 2: were doing, and then the dogs and us evolved to
Speaker 2: the point where Legacy Camp said, yeah, that that dog's
Speaker 2: allowed to come on Legacy Camp, so he'd be playing
Speaker 2: with children, right turn around, yeah, turn around in a
Speaker 2: testament to the quality of the dogs, the stability of them,
Speaker 2: and so once again training and socialization so they're not
Speaker 2: just pulled out of the cage to go and do
Speaker 2: a job. So didn't it I'm out of the cage.
Speaker 2: I got to buy it something. I was socialized for
Speaker 2: the troops, and when we're chilling, they were with us
Speaker 2: the whole time, and so there's part of the pack.
Speaker 2: And you know, when we're putting our body armor on
Speaker 2: and their little harnesses on there like the rest of us,
Speaker 2: it's game on, and we're going to and then take
Speaker 2: that harness off and take our body armor off, and
Speaker 2: we're just we're just a fellow and they're just another
Speaker 2: a fun, fun dog to be around and quite stable.
Speaker 2: And yeah, as I said, we go to the kids
Speaker 2: legacy camps and you see some of the parents and
Speaker 2: my dog's got kids lying all over him. You just
Speaker 2: roll around getting fed bottom, training the kids to sneak
Speaker 2: food off to me and parents. Ah, this dog, we
Speaker 2: know what that one does. He was really good with kids. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: it is. So I think we don't understand or we
Speaker 2: don't give them credit for just what they are capable of.
Speaker 2: And so even this one here, I'm just learning so
Speaker 2: much more, just little things that he picks up on,
Speaker 2: so you.
Speaker 1: Can see why they value added to a team.
Speaker 2: And then and then you know, if somebody got knocked,
Speaker 2: I'd be like, we don't usually get everybody impacted with
Speaker 2: his harnesses on. You don't pack the dog it's business.
Speaker 2: Then you know we'll be downranged somebody get killed and
Speaker 2: you can pat the dog. So it made everybody feel
Speaker 2: a bit better. So that there was that and even
Speaker 2: to the extent when Sean got killed, some of the
Speaker 2: other guys and other cars, I hope that's not the
Speaker 2: car with a dog in it. That was the first fun.
Speaker 2: So yeah, they just have that effect and that's that bond,
Speaker 2: that unconditional service. We're responsible for him, and yeah, who
Speaker 2: doesn't love a dog.
Speaker 1: Losing colleagues over there and your mates, how did that
Speaker 1: impact on you personally? But there's a group to if
Speaker 1: you lose one of your own.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think more summed it up. It's just it's
Speaker 2: a really hard date, tough day at the office, and
Speaker 2: and yeah, when you're still out there on the ground
Speaker 2: and you've just lost them and the body's been backlogged
Speaker 2: because of act, you crack on because you've still got
Speaker 2: a job to do. And then yeah, you come back
Speaker 2: and it does impact your you know, once again, it's
Speaker 2: that autism innus comes out. It Also, you don't want
Speaker 2: to let your team mates down that are still alive,
Speaker 2: and so you suck it up and get back out
Speaker 2: after And I guess it's a risk that we accept
Speaker 2: it sounds like a bit of a throw away line.
Speaker 2: You Okay, that's that's pretty shit. Now we're confronted with
Speaker 2: the realities of it, but you've still got a job
Speaker 2: to do. Your mortality is really rammed home to your
Speaker 2: own so but you've still got got to get out
Speaker 2: there after it. And as once again, it's it's not
Speaker 2: about me, it's about those guys that left a variety
Speaker 2: and so you don't want to let them down, so
Speaker 2: you step up. That's why people talk about warrior culture
Speaker 2: is toxic and everything like that, but it's it's essentially
Speaker 2: it's shame based. You don't want let the team down.
Speaker 2: I don't want the mates down. I got to get
Speaker 2: out there, and that's really what drove me to create
Speaker 2: the dog capability. You never worked with children or animals
Speaker 2: in specs. I'm working with both.
Speaker 1: It's it's interesting, like you say, shame based, and you
Speaker 1: wouldn't think that would be part of it, But I understand,
Speaker 1: like in tactical policing, when I was doing jobs in
Speaker 1: tactical policing, I wasn't going in scared about being injured.
Speaker 1: You're going in worried that you might do the wrong thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was a greater fear than Okay, well if you
Speaker 1: got injured and then went shit, that's acceptable, But what
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been acceptable if you went in there and
Speaker 1: stuffed up or let your mate down. It's a funny
Speaker 1: thing that drives people.
Speaker 2: Isn't it. I know? And I think if we had
Speaker 2: a little bit more of that warrior culture in society,
Speaker 2: probably a little bit of a better place. And actually
Speaker 2: I believe that it would make coming home a lot
Speaker 2: easier because we know what we talk about when we
Speaker 2: say somebody has got no shame, and if the society
Speaker 2: doesn't have any shame and you come back, then it's
Speaker 2: really hard to contemplate. Okay, I went and did this
Speaker 2: for for that, you know, and so you know, people
Speaker 2: have a bit of gratitude and responsibility. Then then that
Speaker 2: is essentially you know you're talking about you young fellows,
Speaker 2: that responsibility that was he's taken on to from from
Speaker 2: his military service and then he's doing, well, well, you're
Speaker 2: proud to go and downrange for people like that and
Speaker 2: were responsible, and so I for everyone takes a bit
Speaker 2: more responsibility. Yeah, I'm happy to have gone and done
Speaker 2: that for them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I understand what.
Speaker 2: You're saying, there'll be no problems, but.
Speaker 1: Where you're coming from, there was another and it came
Speaker 1: up with the war crime allegations and played out in
Speaker 1: the media and that they're talking about, and there was
Speaker 1: films of you guys debriefing or de stressing at the
Speaker 1: Fat Lady's arms, and that issue was addressed in the documentary,
Speaker 1: and I think it put it in perspective. And you
Speaker 1: had former prime ministers saying that they went there, you
Speaker 1: had us pilots saying they went there and they respected
Speaker 1: things that were going on in that place, and it
Speaker 1: was just an area for you guys to decompress. I
Speaker 1: thought it told it well. I when it first came
Speaker 1: out and there was shock, horror. Look, everyone's misbehaving or drinking.
Speaker 1: You've got to see how police unmined after a stressful job,
Speaker 1: and if the cameras were on us, taken out of context,
Speaker 1: looked terrible and shameful. But I think it was explained
Speaker 1: very well. And for the life of me, I can't
Speaker 1: see how people can judge people destressing When you're gone
Speaker 1: out there serving the country following orders you got. You
Speaker 1: can't say no, I'm not going out tonight. Or whatever.
Speaker 1: You've got a job to do, and that seemed to
Speaker 1: me to be a way to decompress and find light
Speaker 1: or relief, take the pressure off. What am I reading
Speaker 1: it right?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, I didn't see. It was a little in
Speaker 2: a sanctum that we had that safe space where you
Speaker 2: could just unwind and whatever went on outside the why
Speaker 2: you could have a chat about it and find a
Speaker 2: light of sight in it and over a few beers
Speaker 2: and just decompress and then crack on. I mean, I'll
Speaker 2: say this in the film. Everybody that I this on
Speaker 2: a Friday Saturday night every week and they've just got
Speaker 2: office jobs or talking about the trials and tribulations that
Speaker 2: went on at work. And so it's culturally, it's a thing,
Speaker 2: and it's a thing everybody does. And so we just
Speaker 2: happened to do it downrange and it was in that
Speaker 2: small safe space, and we make sure that there was
Speaker 2: still people sober and make sure that we were still
Speaker 2: good to go for jobs potentially the next day, and
Speaker 2: so it was done as responsibly as we could. Yeah
Speaker 2: as well, So it was very important and that's a
Speaker 2: lot of the feedback from the prime ministers and anybody
Speaker 2: that went there this is awesome. So the pilots and
Speaker 2: everybody that came in from the outside, well, we got
Speaker 2: an invite to that in a sanctum.
Speaker 1: And they saw it as a privilege. And it's just
Speaker 1: something I wanted to raise because I just thought so
Speaker 1: unfair to expect you guys doing what you do and
Speaker 1: then what you just robots, go back clean your weapons
Speaker 1: and then just sit waiting to be deployed again. You've
Speaker 1: got to be able and to be able to talk
Speaker 1: to people that understand what you just experienced makes sense
Speaker 1: of it. I think that helps. I know it helped
Speaker 1: in policing. Like we'd see some shit and we'd go
Speaker 1: out and we'd get on the drink and you know,
Speaker 1: we got a bit tardy. But yeah, it helped you.
Speaker 1: That's how I found that. It was a way of
Speaker 1: caping with the stress. And we talk about black humor
Speaker 1: and we say things that, ye are inappropriate, but in
Speaker 1: context and how it was said and what was done
Speaker 1: is appropriate in the context. Yeah, well, the.
Speaker 2: Black humor, and I think what people call inappropriate or triggering,
Speaker 2: if you can go there without humor, you're pretty much
Speaker 2: not that. If you do a racist joke or a
Speaker 2: sexious joke. You can joke about things. I'm pretty confident
Speaker 2: that you're not that. It's the ones that get offended
Speaker 2: by that and go, that's that's what you probably are.
Speaker 2: Because people speak out loudest against that what they fear
Speaker 2: they are most run that.
Speaker 1: I like, that's that's a good way coming back in.
Speaker 2: And every time I get triggered by what the hell
Speaker 2: is the city, that weak person or whatever, that's what
Speaker 2: I'm scared of that I am too. So that's what
Speaker 2: also drove us to do amazing things. It's that that
Speaker 2: shame or I don't want to be that and so
Speaker 2: and then I see somebody that I really don't want
Speaker 2: to be or I'm afraid that I maybe I am,
Speaker 2: and speak out against it. So that's when people you
Speaker 2: can't talk about this, you can't say that. I think
Speaker 2: that's probably what you are. If I can make a
Speaker 2: joke about whatever, then it's a joke and we can
Speaker 2: playlight about it. It's a funny one.
Speaker 1: Well, you've touched on a couple of things about society
Speaker 1: be better off if we're this and that. It seems
Speaker 1: to me like the pendulum has swung so far it
Speaker 1: just needs a reset. To accountability and all sorts of
Speaker 1: things and responsibility and referencing him back to a young
Speaker 1: Feller going into the army and having values, instilled sense
Speaker 1: of responsibility and purpose. I think that's crying out for it.
Speaker 2: Well, well, I think what we're seeing is it's a
Speaker 2: lot of the end of empire's criteria symptoms. So you know,
Speaker 2: the neglected military, the descent into hedonism and plenty and entitlement,
Speaker 2: and so we've got people that aren't responsible for their
Speaker 2: lives and don't care about anybody else, and they just take, take, take,
Speaker 2: and that headingism. And we've seen it with the Babylonians,
Speaker 2: the Romans.
Speaker 1: The Greeks dictating where we're at this present time.
Speaker 2: And neglect of the military is a big one because
Speaker 2: then the other armies will just come in over the top.
Speaker 2: And so we see similarities with the Romans, the Barbarians.
Speaker 2: I don't worry about them. We'll just keep going on
Speaker 2: with our orgies and whatever done and the next thing
Speaker 2: you know, the Rome's been sacked. So you know, it's
Speaker 2: like when you're grow on a This is on a
Speaker 2: macro level, but on a micro level, you tell your kids,
Speaker 2: if you don't look after your toys, you won't have them.
Speaker 2: And so if you don't look after the country and
Speaker 2: protect and do and step up and take responsibility, then
Speaker 2: you'll lose it. And I think what we've got now
Speaker 2: is people will just vote for whoever handsome free money
Speaker 2: and it's a short term and nobody wants to tighten
Speaker 2: their belts to look after the future. I'm not saying nobody,
Speaker 2: there's quite a lot that do.
Speaker 1: It's at strange times. I looked at in recent times
Speaker 1: protests in the streets of Sydney and there were so
Speaker 1: many protests groups going around that it was just this
Speaker 1: person's protesting about that, that person's protesting about that, and
Speaker 1: it was just it seem chaotic and shambalie. That's a
Speaker 1: strange times chaos. We might take a break now when
Speaker 1: we get back and thank you for your insight into
Speaker 1: your service saver in Afghanistan and just a little bit
Speaker 1: about yourself and the tips have given me for making
Speaker 1: Spike a bigger and better dog come and possible future employment.
Speaker 1: We want to talk about your post army career. Post
Speaker 1: military career, and you've said that you've suffered from PTSD,
Speaker 1: the type of treatment that you're looking for getting your
Speaker 1: insight into that. Will also talk about the Royal Commission
Speaker 1: into Veteran Suicide and that is only recently played out
Speaker 1: and some of the recommendations. And I'm curious about all
Speaker 1: the other stuff that you've done too, like wildlife working
Speaker 1: over in Africa and poaching anti poaching.
Speaker 2: And it's been quite a rewarding journey that.
Speaker 1: Well, that that that would be fascinating, So a lot,
Speaker 1: a lot to talk about. If we take a break,
Speaker 1: might even take these two idiots for a walk and
Speaker 1: we'll be back soon. Cheers.