WEBVTT - Hidden scars of an SAS dog handler: Horse Pt.1

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never

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<v Speaker 1>exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to another episode of Eye Catch Killers. Today I

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<v Speaker 1>sat down with an extraordinary man who has seen and

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<v Speaker 1>done things in life most of us could not comprehend,

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<v Speaker 1>let alone understand when we talk of us to the country.

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<v Speaker 1>Today's guest has my total respect. He served over ten

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<v Speaker 1>years as an operator and patrol commander in the Special

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<v Speaker 1>Air Services Regiment of the Australian Army. His service in

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<v Speaker 1>the SAS Regiment between two thousand and three and twenty

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<v Speaker 1>fifteen was spent whilst Australia was at war. He and

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<v Speaker 1>his colleagues were a tip of the spear during the conflict.

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<v Speaker 1>Anyone involved in fighting a war pays a price in

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<v Speaker 1>some way. We talk about what it takes to become

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<v Speaker 1>a member of one of the most elite fighting units

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<v Speaker 1>in the world, what happens in the war zone, and

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<v Speaker 1>the price that is paid. It was an honest and

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<v Speaker 1>emotional conversation and it went into areas I didn't expect.

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<v Speaker 1>Have a listen. I think it might go a long

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<v Speaker 1>way to understanding who these men are and what they

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<v Speaker 1>go through serving their country. Today's guest, who goes by

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<v Speaker 1>the nickname of Horse, was suggested to me by someone

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<v Speaker 1>who said I should talk to him, and I'm glad

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<v Speaker 1>I did. Horse. Welcome to I catch killers.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, good to be here.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, I know how busy you are, so thank

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<v Speaker 1>you very much for taking the time to come in

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<v Speaker 1>here and have a chat.

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<v Speaker 2>I appreciate you making the time and so yeah, we've

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<v Speaker 2>had a couple of false starts, and yeah the troubles

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<v Speaker 2>and that good good to be here.

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<v Speaker 1>Finally, well, how about I clarify why you called the

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<v Speaker 1>horse at first. Now that's your nickname, and that's what

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<v Speaker 1>we'll refer you as. But there's a lot of connotations

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<v Speaker 1>that come with a nickname called horse, so you might

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<v Speaker 1>set the records straight.

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<v Speaker 2>I usually lead in that's a rumor I started, But

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<v Speaker 2>now I grew up with horses and it was horse

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<v Speaker 2>man and got shortened a horse. Really, so kind of

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit boring. Yeah, okay, and it's that simple.

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<v Speaker 2>And then I sort of just took it on and

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<v Speaker 2>ran with it. Now nobody really knows my real name.

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<v Speaker 1>How long have people been calling your horse for?

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<v Speaker 2>Since I was a kid, right sixteen? Really kind of

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<v Speaker 2>morphed into just horse.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, Well it makes it simple, doesn't it. Now

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<v Speaker 1>we've also got two other I was going to say people,

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<v Speaker 1>but they're not people, but two other participants in the

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<v Speaker 1>podcast today. You've brought your dog, Presston in.

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<v Speaker 2>Yep, Yeah, he's down here. He made it onto Sky

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<v Speaker 2>News the other week and he's doing the same thing now,

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<v Speaker 2>sleeping through it all.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I thought i'd bring my mate Spike in, who's

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<v Speaker 1>down there and Pressing and Spike have met. There's been

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<v Speaker 1>a little argie bargie, but no blows thrown, so hopefully

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<v Speaker 1>it stays that way.

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<v Speaker 2>Nothing too serious is usually well mannered.

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<v Speaker 1>You have Preston as a companion dog, that's correct, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>what's ago with that? So?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, long story short, I'm certified with PTSD from the

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<v Speaker 2>military service, and so my lifestyle, as you alluded to,

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<v Speaker 2>is quite busy, and so to have a dog generally

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<v Speaker 2>is not really viable. So I got him certified as

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<v Speaker 2>an assistance animal, and so he can come everywhere with me.

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<v Speaker 2>And say, it just allows me to travel on the

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<v Speaker 2>plane with him. I don't have to spend the extra

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<v Speaker 2>money put him in freight or you know his business.

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<v Speaker 2>Especially we live on a boat now, and so we

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<v Speaker 2>can go to national parks and some people say, well,

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<v Speaker 2>it seem to be quite well adjusted. I don't really

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<v Speaker 2>know me, and I thought maybe I'm taking a piss

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<v Speaker 2>here and abusing, But really, when we go out in public,

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<v Speaker 2>he sorts out the week from the chaff, so to speak,

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<v Speaker 2>and you find out who you want to talk to

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<v Speaker 2>pretty quickly, and so who's got manners around animals and

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<v Speaker 2>so they're the ones. So I actually start to engage

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<v Speaker 2>with people out in public where I normally wouldn't and

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<v Speaker 2>so that that's pretty much what he does for me.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not the classic traumatized and he is nurturing and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a little buddy. And because it's just me and him,

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<v Speaker 2>that's very very important for me. Week life on the

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<v Speaker 2>boat sounds like fun, but it would be a lot

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<v Speaker 2>less fun without him.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I think having something like a dog in

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<v Speaker 1>your life it gives a degree of stability. As chaotic

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<v Speaker 1>as your life can be, you've got something that remains

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<v Speaker 1>the same, some consistency there.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he's anchoring effects. So you've got you've got to

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<v Speaker 2>get up, you've got to take him for a walk.

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<v Speaker 2>And there's so that that responsibility is important. I think

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<v Speaker 2>without responsibility in your life, you just fritter it away.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I first saw you a couple of months ago.

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<v Speaker 1>There was a film that was invited along too, called

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<v Speaker 1>Bravery and Betrayal. It was a documentary about the SAS

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<v Speaker 1>and the work that the SAS did in Afghanistan, documentary

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<v Speaker 1>that I found fascinating. Yourself and another person that was

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<v Speaker 1>featured in the documentary spoke after the film and Simon Heath,

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<v Speaker 1>the producer of the film, said, Hey, you want to

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<v Speaker 1>check out what these guys are doing in the power

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<v Speaker 1>of this documentary. How's that for you? The documentary, Well, we.

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<v Speaker 2>Started off just thought, well, we've got sick of the

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<v Speaker 2>narrative and Defense wasn't correcting it. So we thought, well,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll get our story out there and booked five private

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<v Speaker 2>cinemas like independent cinemas, and then they sold out. We'll

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<v Speaker 2>put another screening on and that sold out, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think we've done sixty five sold out cinemas on the

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<v Speaker 2>first tour, and Simon Heath, the director, and myself are

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<v Speaker 2>about to start tour two point zero and say back

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<v Speaker 2>by popular demand, it's always good. It's been quite surprising

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<v Speaker 2>and often confronting. As I said, just made this film

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<v Speaker 2>because we thought, I want to get out side of

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<v Speaker 2>the story out there because it's not being presented, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's given us a voice, which has been good. And

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<v Speaker 2>it's been quite cathartic journey because all the audiences have

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<v Speaker 2>been very, very supportive of of us and and surprised,

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<v Speaker 2>so they got they come up in tears and we didn't.

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<v Speaker 2>We didn't know what you guys went through, what's been

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<v Speaker 2>done to you. And then there's the one that really

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<v Speaker 2>put on my mask was a tunnel wrap from Vietnam.

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<v Speaker 2>He's come up in tears and hugging me, saying thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>Nobody's nobody ever did this for us, And so it's

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<v Speaker 2>grown to be a lot, a lot more. And the

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<v Speaker 2>other thing that's been occurring to me is the family

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<v Speaker 2>is the sacrifice of the families, and we we'd lost

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<v Speaker 2>over that, and you know, it's one of the single

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<v Speaker 2>guys throughout the whole thing. You know, I would, in hindsight,

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<v Speaker 2>I would go and hang out with the families and

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<v Speaker 2>live vicariously through that, that tight knit unit, those nuclear families,

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<v Speaker 2>and and all the bonding that went went with that

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<v Speaker 2>through the wives while we were away, and so they

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<v Speaker 2>were extremely important. And obviously we've got interviews with a

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<v Speaker 2>son who lost his dad, Keegan Locke, his mum Lee

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<v Speaker 2>Ta did widow, and we've got the McCarthy's who lost

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<v Speaker 2>a son, and so their sacrifice has been really been highlighted,

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<v Speaker 2>I think, and hopefully everybody appreciates that, so we do

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<v Speaker 2>get some thank you for your service. They're the ones

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<v Speaker 2>that really sacrifice in the family. So there's a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of things come home. Being driven home to me made

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<v Speaker 2>me sit up and have a bit of a look

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<v Speaker 2>at the wider space instead of just what I was

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<v Speaker 2>doing downrange and getting after it.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I've got to say it was powerful and it

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't surprise me. You say, people in tears after the

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<v Speaker 1>documentary was shown the aim of the documentary, and I

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<v Speaker 1>think it really hit the mark. But just when the

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<v Speaker 1>documentary was made, this was the aim and I just

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<v Speaker 1>read this out over in Betrayal highlights the courage of

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<v Speaker 1>Australia and sas soldiers in Afghanistan while exposing what they

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<v Speaker 1>perceive as a betrayal by politicians, media and senior defense

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<v Speaker 1>leaders after their service. The film aims to set the

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<v Speaker 1>records straight, honor the soldier's sacrifice, and advocate for better

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<v Speaker 1>treatment of veterans. I think if you watch that movie,

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<v Speaker 1>you're going to go, okay, well that's a fair call.

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<v Speaker 1>And the narrative that you talk about is this, and

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<v Speaker 1>it's been hanging around for a long time and probably

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<v Speaker 1>too long, the allegations of war crimes that seem to

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<v Speaker 1>have put a stain on all the work that you

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<v Speaker 1>guys did, and bearing in mind they are any allegations

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<v Speaker 1>at this stage, did you notice a shift, the change

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<v Speaker 1>from the perception of the public when these allegations came out.

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<v Speaker 2>So I've been living overseas for a little bit, so

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't see a shift in the public when I

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<v Speaker 2>have been back in Australia. Really the highlight is Ben

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<v Speaker 2>Roberts Smith. So whenever that comes up and I have

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<v Speaker 2>interactions with the public and they find out where my background,

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<v Speaker 2>they're very supportive. Most of the public and this is

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<v Speaker 2>what we found out with the film as well as

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<v Speaker 2>general public are supporting us, and so this narrative is

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<v Speaker 2>just from a very small part of the media and

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<v Speaker 2>some of the public who they're ideologically predisposed to be

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<v Speaker 2>against war of warfare, and so generally I hadn't noticed it,

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<v Speaker 2>but I've felt it because I've seen it and obviously

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<v Speaker 2>it's close to me. So you do pick up on

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<v Speaker 2>these things from the media, and so I think it

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<v Speaker 2>is felt throughout our community. And I've noticed what it's

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<v Speaker 2>done the guys and the allegations and some of the

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<v Speaker 2>subpoenas and obviously gag or put on people when they're

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<v Speaker 2>involved with ongoing investigations, and it's just diminished them and

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<v Speaker 2>they're sort of sitting there with this sort of damicles

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<v Speaker 2>over their head. Just waiting in chronic stress just grinds

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<v Speaker 2>guys down. You've got Tier one operators who are significantly

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<v Speaker 2>diminished and just shells of their former And I went

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<v Speaker 2>through some issues as well myself. Well, seeing seeing what

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<v Speaker 2>it does to your mates really is one of the

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<v Speaker 2>biggest issues.

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<v Speaker 1>I think if you've been at the sharp end of

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<v Speaker 1>the sphere like you guys were in the war that was.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's the longest running conflict Australia has been

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<v Speaker 1>involved in a war zone. So there's enough damage that's done.

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<v Speaker 1>You don't go the war coming back the same person

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<v Speaker 1>that there's damage done. And something that really hit home

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<v Speaker 1>to me that you mentioned, and I can relate to

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<v Speaker 1>it in part where you said, where these allegations have

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<v Speaker 1>been made people that had served overseas, mates that they

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<v Speaker 1>relied upon aren't allowed to talk to each other because

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<v Speaker 1>of subpoenas and different things and restrictions. That must add

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<v Speaker 1>exponentially the pressure of not only dealing with coming back

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<v Speaker 1>from war, but then dealing with the allegations.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, I mean it's a classic interrogation isolation tactic

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<v Speaker 2>where you put pressure on people and we know what

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<v Speaker 2>isolation does two people and you've been involved with the

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<v Speaker 2>Royal Commission into Veteran Suicide and that isolation is a

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<v Speaker 2>massive impact upon mental health and increase his chance of

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<v Speaker 2>suicidality for a start. So the authorities know this and

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<v Speaker 2>they still go and do it to us and isolate

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<v Speaker 2>We can talk and tay Olie Schultz because his name

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<v Speaker 2>has been out in the public and he's the only

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<v Speaker 2>one that's ever been charged, yes, and so yeah, he's

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<v Speaker 2>been isolated from all of the guys, really.

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<v Speaker 1>And that adds to adds so much pressure. And if

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<v Speaker 1>I reference police matters, I always think what you guys

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<v Speaker 1>have been through is policing, and what you guys have

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<v Speaker 1>been through is on steroids compared to that. But when

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<v Speaker 1>I felt foul of the police and allegations were made,

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<v Speaker 1>I was isolated from the police. I wasn't allowed to

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<v Speaker 1>talk to any police officer, and anyone that did talk

0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:05.840
<v Speaker 1>to me was criticized. Some were transferred out of units

0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:10.120
<v Speaker 1>because they were associated with me. And that isolation does

0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:13.080
<v Speaker 1>add to the pressure of it. And you're in this

0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:16.360
<v Speaker 1>world of going, what the fuck's what's going on?

0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:18.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And there's only so long you can put up

0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:22.840
<v Speaker 2>with that, Yeah, yeah, Yeah, And as you found out firsthand. Yeah,

0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:26.280
<v Speaker 2>well yeah, they did play those tactics right back on

0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:29.000
<v Speaker 2>their own people's Yeah, it's crazy.

0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:33.760
<v Speaker 1>It is crazy. And also when there's allegations that are

0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:37.840
<v Speaker 1>made that I know with the Police Royal Commission in

0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:41.280
<v Speaker 1>the police corruption there were things that were uncovered, and yeah,

0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:44.320
<v Speaker 1>things that needed to be addressed. But I remember a

0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:48.200
<v Speaker 1>deputy commissioner coming out and saying that after that Royal Commission,

0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:50.360
<v Speaker 1>I was a detective and I didn't get caught up

0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:52.360
<v Speaker 1>in the Royal Commission, and I was proud of the

0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:53.800
<v Speaker 1>work I did, and I was proud of the work

0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:56.800
<v Speaker 1>that people I was working with the way they conducted themselves.

0:13:57.200 --> 0:13:59.559
<v Speaker 1>And then you had a deputy commission to come out

0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:01.320
<v Speaker 1>and say all the techniques are a disgrace and they

0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:03.800
<v Speaker 1>should be sent back to uniform. That pissed me off,

0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:05.760
<v Speaker 1>and that pissed me off for about twenty years. I

0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:09.599
<v Speaker 1>made the point of really pushing the detective barrow and

0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:11.680
<v Speaker 1>how dare you say that of all detectives?

0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:17.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeh, it becomes personal. And I think interestingly the CDF

0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:22.720
<v Speaker 2>Campbell came out and apologized to Afghanistan, for the Afghan people,

0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:27.080
<v Speaker 2>for all of the injustice or improprieties. I can't remember

0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:29.760
<v Speaker 2>the exact words, but he apologize for any war crimes

0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:33.360
<v Speaker 2>that we committed when there's been nothing proven. It's just

0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:37.760
<v Speaker 2>all allegations are blank and as you alluded to, a

0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:43.360
<v Speaker 2>blanket cast of allegations or guilt, and so all of

0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:48.520
<v Speaker 2>a sudden, you're all guilty, presumed guilty until proven innocence,

0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:52.360
<v Speaker 2>whereas the opposite of what it's supposed to be. And

0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:59.040
<v Speaker 2>so you guys haven't got due process. Yeah, and neither

0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:02.600
<v Speaker 2>have we. And it seems to be something with government

0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:06.160
<v Speaker 2>hierarchies that I'm willing to throw their people under the

0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:11.400
<v Speaker 2>bus for some sort of personal gain. And I don't

0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:14.840
<v Speaker 2>know what the motivations are, and I don't understand it either.

0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:18.520
<v Speaker 1>I want to talk about you and your extraordinary career

0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.760
<v Speaker 1>and the things that things that you've done, and I

0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:24.280
<v Speaker 1>think it's pretty amazing. So just let me roat some

0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:27.120
<v Speaker 1>of this stuff out. You join the Army in nineteen

0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:29.800
<v Speaker 1>ninety three. You're in the SAS from two thousand and

0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:34.200
<v Speaker 1>three to twenty fifteen. You've provided training and consultation for

0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:38.960
<v Speaker 1>military law enforcement and African wildlife consultation. Soon you operate

0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:42.440
<v Speaker 1>domestically and in conjunction with Australian Federal Police and State Police.

0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:45.240
<v Speaker 1>You've worked in Southeast Asia and the Middle East. You

0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:49.320
<v Speaker 1>delivered training for K nine units to La County Sheriff's Department,

0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:54.040
<v Speaker 1>swat LAPD, Swedish Police, Danish Police, European Special Forces and

0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:57.640
<v Speaker 1>Wildlife Ranger units throughout Africa. That's why I bought Spiking.

0:15:57.840 --> 0:15:59.600
<v Speaker 1>I want to see if we can get him a job.

0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:04.360
<v Speaker 1>He's been free lading for too long. Assisted teaching in

0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:08.280
<v Speaker 1>Sweden to autistic spectrum diagnosed children. You even worked as

0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:10.960
<v Speaker 1>a movie animal trainer, ensuring dogs were trained for their

0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:15.160
<v Speaker 1>various roles. That's a job for Spike. Your academic qualifications

0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:19.120
<v Speaker 1>include Master of Business Administration Advanced to Planner in Public

0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:22.800
<v Speaker 1>Safety Emergency Management, the Plomer and Work Health and Safety,

0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:26.240
<v Speaker 1>the Planer of Business Certificate for and Training and Assessment

0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:31.240
<v Speaker 1>rya Professional day skipper license, and of course you've got

0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:35.160
<v Speaker 1>your private pilot's license. You can fly a plane as well. Mate.

0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:39.120
<v Speaker 1>That is a lot to do, and I wanted to

0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:42.040
<v Speaker 1>put that out because I want people to understand who

0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:44.160
<v Speaker 1>you are and when we're talking. But that's a hell

0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:46.040
<v Speaker 1>of a lot of things to have done.

0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:51.600
<v Speaker 2>That's my adhd I think right, which I do have

0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:55.360
<v Speaker 2>it clearly, yeah, and slightly on the spectrum. But these

0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:58.960
<v Speaker 2>things are actual superpowers, and we put it out there

0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.240
<v Speaker 2>in society that these things are terrible to have. But

0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:05.280
<v Speaker 2>if you allow these people to find find what interests

0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:08.040
<v Speaker 2>them and go for it, then I guess that's what happens.

0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:10.520
<v Speaker 1>Channel, channel and direction.

0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:13.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I think you can probably relate to a

0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:18.119
<v Speaker 2>lot of that with your people. Call you obsessed with

0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:20.720
<v Speaker 2>your job, and then that extra links that you'll go to,

0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:23.359
<v Speaker 2>And that's that's so where it ends up.

0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:26.520
<v Speaker 1>It quite often separates, it, doesn't it. And when you've

0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:29.000
<v Speaker 1>got a passion for something, passion with perspective, but the

0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:31.439
<v Speaker 1>passion for something and you enjoy it and you've got

0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:34.000
<v Speaker 1>an inquiring mind, that does push it that little bit further,

0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:34.560
<v Speaker 1>doesn't it.

0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:37.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And it's not like I set out to do

0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:40.960
<v Speaker 2>any of that. It just it just happened. And so

0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:44.880
<v Speaker 2>allow people to do what what interests them and go

0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:50.200
<v Speaker 2>with it, maybe enable them and guide them, and obviously

0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:53.439
<v Speaker 2>you'll follow follow your moral compass and and here we.

0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:56.960
<v Speaker 1>Are, Well, that's it's interesting too, And maybe it's the

0:17:57.000 --> 0:18:00.399
<v Speaker 1>way you positive outlook on things like adhd. I hear

0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:04.920
<v Speaker 1>so many people use that as an excuse and you're saying, well, yeah,

0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:07.200
<v Speaker 1>it's my superpower. It points me in the direction that

0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:08.200
<v Speaker 1>drives me. Yeah.

0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:12.920
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, there was issues growing up back in the seventies ages.

0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:15.439
<v Speaker 2>Nobody really knew what this was. And so you're just

0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:18.719
<v Speaker 2>that kid that's always hanging off the chandeliers.

0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:20.960
<v Speaker 1>The little shit that's causing problems.

0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:24.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that's pretty much what I became and identified

0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:27.159
<v Speaker 2>as for years. And so you know we're here about

0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:32.280
<v Speaker 2>coppers and crims not too similar. And I think it

0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:34.480
<v Speaker 2>could have gone eat a way for me. And I

0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:38.640
<v Speaker 2>think if I was growing up today with cameras on phones,

0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:41.359
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if i'd have been even allowed to

0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:43.480
<v Speaker 2>join the defense force and say that would have pushed

0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:49.080
<v Speaker 2>me in not so wholesome direction. And so because I

0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:52.640
<v Speaker 2>grew up always wanted to be a soldier and you're

0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:56.720
<v Speaker 2>playing with guns, getting that stick out and that's a

0:18:56.720 --> 0:19:02.840
<v Speaker 2>good stick, and so I always wanted to join the military.

0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:05.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, without that, I dare say it would have

0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:08.320
<v Speaker 2>gone the other way. I did end up bouncing for

0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:12.920
<v Speaker 2>a little while in Melbourne and rubbing shoulders with criminal.

0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:14.080
<v Speaker 1>Elements to drag you in the world.

0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:16.200
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, well I did get in a spot of

0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:18.240
<v Speaker 2>botic side and made he got locked up in perse

0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:21.720
<v Speaker 2>once I joined the regiment, and friend said, oh, someone

0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:24.080
<v Speaker 2>so he's in jail ere and go and visit him.

0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:27.960
<v Speaker 2>So I linked up with a mate of his who's

0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:31.560
<v Speaker 2>in the Outlaw Motorcycle Gang and went and visited him.

0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:35.840
<v Speaker 2>And I think when Benji Venaman got knocked, they was

0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:38.400
<v Speaker 2>looking to do his background and he was visiting this guy,

0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:41.480
<v Speaker 2>and so who else is visiting him? And there's an

0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:47.359
<v Speaker 2>essays operator with Outlaw Motorcycle Gang guys. I got called

0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:51.280
<v Speaker 2>into headquarters and what's going on here? Maybe I'm going

0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:53.320
<v Speaker 2>to get a medal. I walked in there and I

0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:55.840
<v Speaker 2>saw their faces. I thought, I got a medal today,

0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:58.560
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, I was sitting there with a cloud over

0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:02.680
<v Speaker 2>my head for a year while I had investstigation went on. Fortunately, Yeah,

0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:05.520
<v Speaker 2>and I did bring that on myself to associating with damage.

0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:09.800
<v Speaker 2>So there's always that tendency there, and yeah, it could

0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:12.040
<v Speaker 2>have gone either way. And even when I was in

0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:17.320
<v Speaker 2>the regiments, I see still but I just decided, well,

0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:19.600
<v Speaker 2>this is what I want to go. So I cut

0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:20.600
<v Speaker 2>all those ties.

0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:23.440
<v Speaker 1>Your childhood where did you Where did you grow.

0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:28.160
<v Speaker 2>Up central Victoria? Yep, in the twenty acre farm about

0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:32.200
<v Speaker 2>an hour north of Melbourne. So it's a geographical center

0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:36.879
<v Speaker 2>of Victoria. Riding horses and playing with a dog, and

0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:40.119
<v Speaker 2>so because of that, adhd a little bit of spectrum stuff.

0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:42.960
<v Speaker 2>I was just always in trouble, so I would gravitate

0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:47.920
<v Speaker 2>out onto the outside and hang out with dogs and horses,

0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:51.000
<v Speaker 2>and so that's where I'm affinity for animals and that

0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:55.560
<v Speaker 2>connection came from. And lo and behold thirty years later

0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:58.480
<v Speaker 2>on heading up the dog capability at the regiment. So

0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:03.760
<v Speaker 2>that that was really the serendill An interesting early days

0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:08.600
<v Speaker 2>and carried all all the way through and the military space.

0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:12.480
<v Speaker 2>The grandfather Blue Reata, they wrote a book about him.

0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:14.760
<v Speaker 2>He's got the Military Cross and a military medal from

0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:18.639
<v Speaker 2>World War Two. So bit of a legend there, and

0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:21.879
<v Speaker 2>he was quite a mentor to me. So that was

0:21:21.920 --> 0:21:26.960
<v Speaker 2>your grandfather grandfather mom's side. Okay, he always said all

0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:29.119
<v Speaker 2>of their firstborn were a little bit crazy, and so

0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:31.040
<v Speaker 2>that was he's telling me about my mum when I

0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:34.840
<v Speaker 2>was ten, and so I think it's been passed on

0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:37.400
<v Speaker 2>through his genes. When you came back from the war,

0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:40.440
<v Speaker 2>got passed on, but I think you felt a little

0:21:40.440 --> 0:21:42.400
<v Speaker 2>bit responsible for that, so did you.

0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:45.840
<v Speaker 1>I'm just wondering the dynamics with your mum growing up

0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:49.280
<v Speaker 1>with a dad that was a fighting soldier, did she

0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:52.399
<v Speaker 1>have concerns about you following down that path.

0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:54.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Mom and dad did because.

0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:58.480
<v Speaker 1>They were assumed the impact it had on your grandfather.

0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:00.520
<v Speaker 2>I would the magine, Well, I don't know if they

0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:03.679
<v Speaker 2>people understood that. When you're growing up with it, you

0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:05.959
<v Speaker 2>just say, God, that's that's dad, and you know, but

0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:08.720
<v Speaker 2>then they've been brought up by people who have been

0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:11.200
<v Speaker 2>through World War Two, so you know there's got to

0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:13.719
<v Speaker 2>be an impact there and whether they recognized it or not.

0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:18.040
<v Speaker 2>But then I think the big factor was Vietnam. You

0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:20.639
<v Speaker 2>know what they saw going on in Vietnam because it

0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:21.520
<v Speaker 2>was their generation.

0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:22.320
<v Speaker 1>Now.

0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:27.400
<v Speaker 2>Dad had hemophilia, so blood clotting problem, so he got

0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:31.120
<v Speaker 2>called up. I said, no, you can't, can't come. That's

0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:33.840
<v Speaker 2>going to be an issue down range. So he never went.

0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:37.920
<v Speaker 2>But they saw what friends didud to friends and what

0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:39.800
<v Speaker 2>went on during the Vietnam War and how they were

0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:42.679
<v Speaker 2>treated when they came back too, and so you know

0:22:42.760 --> 0:22:45.159
<v Speaker 2>you don't want that for your kid. All I ever

0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:47.080
<v Speaker 2>wanted to do was join the military, and they tried

0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:52.080
<v Speaker 2>to steer me into university, and I was just a

0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:55.600
<v Speaker 2>disruptive influence in class, although I didn't enjoy school at all,

0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:58.400
<v Speaker 2>and and even I went back to UNI a couple

0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:02.119
<v Speaker 2>of years ago on a military scholarship, and I was

0:23:02.160 --> 0:23:05.760
<v Speaker 2>still a disruptive influence. Nothing's changed.

0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:08.280
<v Speaker 1>How old were you when you joined the army?

0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:12.280
<v Speaker 2>Twenty one? Okay, So I got put off a little

0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:16.200
<v Speaker 2>bit by their steering me into UNI, But in hindsight,

0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:17.399
<v Speaker 2>it was just always going to happen.

0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:20.440
<v Speaker 1>And basic training, once you're in there, did it fit

0:23:20.520 --> 0:23:22.720
<v Speaker 1>like a glob for you? You felt this is where

0:23:22.720 --> 0:23:23.160
<v Speaker 1>I belong.

0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:28.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, recruit training, they get you in there and strip

0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:32.280
<v Speaker 2>you of all yourself and break you down and build

0:23:32.359 --> 0:23:35.000
<v Speaker 2>you up. I was a little bit resistant to that.

0:23:35.080 --> 0:23:38.800
<v Speaker 2>So the first few weeks, first eight weeks in a

0:23:38.840 --> 0:23:41.560
<v Speaker 2>spot of bother here and there and not getting good reports.

0:23:41.560 --> 0:23:45.720
<v Speaker 2>But by the end I'd attain the standard they wanted

0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:48.439
<v Speaker 2>and went on and then we went to infantry training

0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:50.760
<v Speaker 2>and that's it. Thoroughly enjoyed that.

0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:54.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. My son did the gap year in the army,

0:23:54.560 --> 0:23:57.040
<v Speaker 1>so just after he left school and the gap year

0:23:57.119 --> 0:24:01.240
<v Speaker 1>is sign up for twelve months, can't it deployed overseas,

0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:03.720
<v Speaker 1>But the Army's got them for twelve months, and I

0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:07.560
<v Speaker 1>think the trade off is the guys and girls signing

0:24:07.600 --> 0:24:10.919
<v Speaker 1>up for that get a good wage and enjoy the

0:24:11.240 --> 0:24:14.680
<v Speaker 1>army life. Then they leave or the army thinks will

0:24:14.680 --> 0:24:16.560
<v Speaker 1>convert them if we keep them there long enough. But

0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:19.359
<v Speaker 1>I remember the change of my son going down to

0:24:19.720 --> 0:24:22.120
<v Speaker 1>I put it down to the best twelve months parenting

0:24:22.160 --> 0:24:25.959
<v Speaker 1>I ever did, because I saw the change in him.

0:24:26.160 --> 0:24:28.760
<v Speaker 1>He went down there and he went to UNI after

0:24:28.960 --> 0:24:31.520
<v Speaker 1>that year. But if he went to UNI at that

0:24:31.640 --> 0:24:34.120
<v Speaker 1>stage he wore a stuffed up like I don't think

0:24:34.160 --> 0:24:35.840
<v Speaker 1>he was ready for it. He went to the Army,

0:24:36.240 --> 0:24:38.639
<v Speaker 1>as you said, break him down, come out, and he

0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:42.119
<v Speaker 1>went from Kapuka then the infantry came out a completely

0:24:42.200 --> 0:24:42.840
<v Speaker 1>different person.

0:24:43.480 --> 0:24:49.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it changes you look, it does, and it built

0:24:49.720 --> 0:24:53.879
<v Speaker 2>me up to achieve anyone of my looks or intellect

0:24:53.880 --> 0:24:58.320
<v Speaker 2>should not expect to be able to achieve. Yeah, it's great.

0:24:58.840 --> 0:25:03.639
<v Speaker 2>And I got friends here in Europe who Sweden, they

0:25:03.720 --> 0:25:07.439
<v Speaker 2>used to have the National service and we didn't like

0:25:07.520 --> 0:25:10.400
<v Speaker 2>doing it at first, but then two years they came

0:25:10.440 --> 0:25:12.359
<v Speaker 2>out and they said, in hindsight, it's the best thing

0:25:12.400 --> 0:25:14.320
<v Speaker 2>they ever did that set them up for life and

0:25:14.359 --> 0:25:20.280
<v Speaker 2>gave him those structure and discipline and values that the

0:25:20.280 --> 0:25:24.240
<v Speaker 2>military does. Shove down your throat the hierarchy. Don't emulate

0:25:24.320 --> 0:25:28.160
<v Speaker 2>that always. What that gives you is just amazing, I think,

0:25:28.240 --> 0:25:32.120
<v Speaker 2>and I fully support anybody going into the military, even

0:25:32.160 --> 0:25:35.320
<v Speaker 2>if you just do your four years, it gives you

0:25:35.520 --> 0:25:36.240
<v Speaker 2>life skills.

0:25:36.760 --> 0:25:39.320
<v Speaker 1>Well in this day and age, and you know, lots

0:25:39.320 --> 0:25:42.200
<v Speaker 1>of people have lost their way for a variety of reasons.

0:25:42.280 --> 0:25:45.480
<v Speaker 1>And I just saw the impact it had on the

0:25:45.520 --> 0:25:47.479
<v Speaker 1>some and I thought it was the best thing for him.

0:25:47.520 --> 0:25:51.440
<v Speaker 1>And he's kept that discipline all the way through. And yeah,

0:25:52.240 --> 0:25:54.440
<v Speaker 1>change the person. He isn't a different outlook.

0:25:54.080 --> 0:25:56.560
<v Speaker 2>On life to good on him. That's pretty cool.

0:25:56.920 --> 0:25:58.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you've done, you went in, you.

0:25:58.960 --> 0:26:01.280
<v Speaker 2>Go to a recruiting for defense.

0:26:01.480 --> 0:26:04.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well when I went, when I went down there,

0:26:04.680 --> 0:26:08.040
<v Speaker 1>and I was enjoyed. Actually it was funny because one

0:26:08.040 --> 0:26:12.080
<v Speaker 1>of the my son had trained with the father. It

0:26:12.160 --> 0:26:14.760
<v Speaker 1>was a father and son team that basically came in

0:26:15.119 --> 0:26:18.200
<v Speaker 1>and he said that would you And I've always wanted

0:26:18.200 --> 0:26:20.359
<v Speaker 1>to join the army. Maybe it was too late, but

0:26:20.760 --> 0:26:24.360
<v Speaker 1>Jake was went through basic training with the father, then

0:26:24.760 --> 0:26:28.520
<v Speaker 1>serve with the son or something something something weird, but

0:26:29.680 --> 0:26:32.479
<v Speaker 1>yeah with it it changed. But after you've done your

0:26:32.480 --> 0:26:35.840
<v Speaker 1>basic training, you you went to infantry. What where were

0:26:35.840 --> 0:26:36.840
<v Speaker 1>you attached to it?

0:26:37.840 --> 0:26:40.400
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to go to Parachute Britain, so it's three

0:26:40.520 --> 0:26:43.320
<v Speaker 2>rur back in the time day, just down down in Holsworth.

0:26:44.080 --> 0:26:46.000
<v Speaker 2>So I spent a couple of years there and then

0:26:46.560 --> 0:26:50.480
<v Speaker 2>dadok crooked. So I went down to Melbourne to to

0:26:50.680 --> 0:26:55.240
<v Speaker 2>Commando Company second Commander and came off a motorbike there

0:26:55.280 --> 0:26:59.000
<v Speaker 2>and broke the pelvis. So I thought that that hurts, Yeah,

0:26:59.280 --> 0:27:03.040
<v Speaker 2>because I wanted to go to the ESA. Yes and yeah,

0:27:03.080 --> 0:27:06.040
<v Speaker 2>then broken pelvis. They said, well you're not going to

0:27:06.119 --> 0:27:09.400
<v Speaker 2>run ever again, You'll be lucky to walk, so well

0:27:10.040 --> 0:27:13.640
<v Speaker 2>we proved them wrong. Yeah, so that put things back

0:27:13.680 --> 0:27:16.480
<v Speaker 2>a little bit. And then Team More came up and

0:27:16.520 --> 0:27:18.639
<v Speaker 2>I was starting to get fit again, and so I

0:27:18.680 --> 0:27:23.160
<v Speaker 2>went off with two Commando Team More in two thousand

0:27:23.200 --> 0:27:25.720
<v Speaker 2>and one. Then came back from that and I was

0:27:25.760 --> 0:27:29.520
<v Speaker 2>also wrestling and I tried out for the Australian team.

0:27:29.680 --> 0:27:37.679
<v Speaker 2>Conwell's yeah, look I didn't make team was probably just

0:27:37.720 --> 0:27:39.960
<v Speaker 2>as well. Because the standard of wrestling in Australia's a

0:27:39.960 --> 0:27:44.320
<v Speaker 2>bit lower than overseas.

0:27:41.520 --> 0:27:46.760
<v Speaker 1>If all the ones with just the beards and the mustache,

0:27:46.920 --> 0:27:49.120
<v Speaker 1>yeah yeah, the scary ones.

0:27:49.000 --> 0:27:50.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Eastern Bloc guys.

0:27:51.119 --> 0:27:52.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, you don't want to wrestle.

0:27:53.000 --> 0:27:57.479
<v Speaker 2>No, So I was fortunate make the team and then

0:27:58.200 --> 0:28:00.639
<v Speaker 2>that was two thousand and two. Then I did selection

0:28:00.760 --> 0:28:01.160
<v Speaker 2>do three.

0:28:01.480 --> 0:28:05.720
<v Speaker 1>Okay, your deployment in Team More, that was the first

0:28:05.760 --> 0:28:08.520
<v Speaker 1>time we've been deployed in en mass like that the

0:28:08.560 --> 0:28:12.480
<v Speaker 1>military in Team More. Tell us about that experience from

0:28:12.640 --> 0:28:15.760
<v Speaker 1>I should clarify from Vietnam, it's been a bit of

0:28:15.760 --> 0:28:16.600
<v Speaker 1>a quiet time.

0:28:16.840 --> 0:28:21.520
<v Speaker 2>I think we had a wander in there as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

0:28:21.560 --> 0:28:24.720
<v Speaker 2>that was an interesting one, and so I think we

0:28:24.720 --> 0:28:28.359
<v Speaker 2>were still doing Vietnam joels and it was just a

0:28:28.359 --> 0:28:32.480
<v Speaker 2>different war. So learning where you can and can't go

0:28:32.560 --> 0:28:35.119
<v Speaker 2>on what to do was interesting and it was largely

0:28:35.160 --> 0:28:37.959
<v Speaker 2>a peacekeeping There were a few contacts here and there.

0:28:38.080 --> 0:28:40.920
<v Speaker 2>It was kind of settled down by two thousand and one.

0:28:41.320 --> 0:28:45.240
<v Speaker 1>You've been in the army since ninety three, training, practicing,

0:28:45.320 --> 0:28:49.200
<v Speaker 1>getting ready that deployment was that something you look forward to, Yeah,

0:28:49.440 --> 0:28:52.000
<v Speaker 1>actually put in in the practice. What you've been training for.

0:28:51.960 --> 0:28:56.760
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, and so even though what's happened to us from Afghanistan,

0:28:56.920 --> 0:29:00.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm glad and I feel myself consider myself lest that

0:29:00.920 --> 0:29:03.960
<v Speaker 2>I got the opportunity to go down range on operations

0:29:04.920 --> 0:29:07.720
<v Speaker 2>serve the country. But you get to scratch that itch

0:29:07.800 --> 0:29:11.840
<v Speaker 2>to I can't imagine what it would have been like

0:29:11.920 --> 0:29:16.960
<v Speaker 2>for the guys carrying that tort through the late seventies

0:29:17.000 --> 0:29:19.880
<v Speaker 2>into the eighties that never got to go anywhere.

0:29:20.080 --> 0:29:23.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and when people say that it's misconstrued that you're

0:29:23.920 --> 0:29:27.040
<v Speaker 1>warmonger you want to go the war, I don't look

0:29:27.080 --> 0:29:29.320
<v Speaker 1>at it that way. Perhaps you could shed some light

0:29:29.360 --> 0:29:31.680
<v Speaker 1>on it. But you're trained for something. This is the

0:29:31.800 --> 0:29:34.440
<v Speaker 1>role that you've signed up for, and when you get

0:29:35.040 --> 0:29:38.080
<v Speaker 1>it's like, on a lesser scale being a football player

0:29:38.120 --> 0:29:40.200
<v Speaker 1>and not getting to play a game, training, training, and

0:29:40.400 --> 0:29:43.040
<v Speaker 1>never get out on the field. So I can understand

0:29:43.160 --> 0:29:46.680
<v Speaker 1>the desire to actually put all your training into practice.

0:29:47.000 --> 0:29:52.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I believe you join up to go and serve

0:29:52.240 --> 0:29:54.960
<v Speaker 2>the country and do these things. And it's a little

0:29:54.960 --> 0:29:58.200
<v Speaker 2>bit of a boy's own adventure too, So young men

0:29:58.400 --> 0:30:01.800
<v Speaker 2>going and testing themselves in DNA, and so it's not

0:30:02.040 --> 0:30:06.000
<v Speaker 2>like you're a warmonger. In fact, you went over there

0:30:06.040 --> 0:30:10.400
<v Speaker 2>to do good, to protect people while serving the country.

0:30:10.720 --> 0:30:14.360
<v Speaker 2>So it's kind of an honorable cause you're going over

0:30:14.400 --> 0:30:17.000
<v Speaker 2>there to do the thinking. People say, oh, how many

0:30:17.040 --> 0:30:19.080
<v Speaker 2>people would you kill the billet? Yeah, okay, there is

0:30:19.120 --> 0:30:24.200
<v Speaker 2>a number, but I think it's more important. There's a

0:30:24.280 --> 0:30:26.960
<v Speaker 2>large number also the people that I could have killed

0:30:27.760 --> 0:30:33.360
<v Speaker 2>and justified but didn't. And so we're there to rise

0:30:33.400 --> 0:30:37.480
<v Speaker 2>above the chaos and the psychopaths that are out there.

0:30:37.560 --> 0:30:40.680
<v Speaker 2>Because once again people say, oh, you're getting accused of

0:30:40.720 --> 0:30:43.160
<v Speaker 2>war crimes. It's war you go over there and do anything.

0:30:43.160 --> 0:30:46.160
<v Speaker 2>Well that that's not true. You know, we're over there

0:30:46.560 --> 0:30:49.640
<v Speaker 2>and taking a higher moral ground. You know, as you

0:30:49.680 --> 0:30:52.880
<v Speaker 2>would have experienced with the coppers. You're out there to

0:30:52.920 --> 0:30:56.480
<v Speaker 2>do a job and provide a bit of stability because

0:30:57.200 --> 0:30:59.840
<v Speaker 2>some of the people you're dealing with, you you would

0:31:00.320 --> 0:31:02.440
<v Speaker 2>spit on them and you want to put a bullet

0:31:02.440 --> 0:31:04.320
<v Speaker 2>in the head, but you don't. And there would have

0:31:04.360 --> 0:31:06.880
<v Speaker 2>been times, no doubt for you and so for me,

0:31:07.360 --> 0:31:09.400
<v Speaker 2>that you could have done it and got away with it.

0:31:09.640 --> 0:31:12.600
<v Speaker 2>That's that's not what we're there for, because then you

0:31:12.600 --> 0:31:15.520
<v Speaker 2>know it's Nietzsche's abyss. You know, or those that deal

0:31:15.560 --> 0:31:17.760
<v Speaker 2>with monsters be where are becoming a monster? And so

0:31:18.280 --> 0:31:21.280
<v Speaker 2>that's that's what my answer is to that one.

0:31:21.600 --> 0:31:25.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I get what you're saying, and I can relate

0:31:25.280 --> 0:31:28.040
<v Speaker 1>that I did some jobs in policing and it was

0:31:28.080 --> 0:31:30.520
<v Speaker 1>about the restraint that you showed. And quite often I

0:31:30.640 --> 0:31:33.280
<v Speaker 1>have people, you know, you locked up this person, what

0:31:33.320 --> 0:31:36.040
<v Speaker 1>did you do? Did you bash them or whatever? That's

0:31:36.040 --> 0:31:40.120
<v Speaker 1>not what it's about, like you're lowered to their standard.

0:31:40.160 --> 0:31:41.400
<v Speaker 1>If you drop down to their.

0:31:41.320 --> 0:31:42.959
<v Speaker 2>Stands, Yeah, you become part of the problem.

0:31:43.040 --> 0:31:44.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, for sure.

0:31:44.360 --> 0:31:46.880
<v Speaker 2>And then and then this is where we end up

0:31:46.920 --> 0:31:52.160
<v Speaker 2>with royal commissions. Yeah, yeah, because that stuff it always

0:31:52.240 --> 0:31:52.640
<v Speaker 2>comes out.

0:31:53.120 --> 0:31:56.320
<v Speaker 1>You mentioned moral compass, and I've always said that because

0:31:56.320 --> 0:32:00.760
<v Speaker 1>I was in organized crime major crime investigation before the

0:32:00.800 --> 0:32:03.440
<v Speaker 1>Royal Commission, so as in the thick of it where

0:32:03.520 --> 0:32:07.160
<v Speaker 1>things were going, and the moral compass is so important

0:32:07.200 --> 0:32:09.400
<v Speaker 1>to hang on to your moral compass, and it can

0:32:09.440 --> 0:32:11.800
<v Speaker 1>slide you don't keep it, keep it in check. So

0:32:11.880 --> 0:32:13.720
<v Speaker 1>that's an important thing to hang on to, isn't it.

0:32:13.960 --> 0:32:17.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And it is difficult, absolutely, And so when you

0:32:17.960 --> 0:32:22.160
<v Speaker 2>look at what the government asked of us, you're going

0:32:22.560 --> 0:32:25.080
<v Speaker 2>back to the same area doing the same job. You're

0:32:25.080 --> 0:32:29.440
<v Speaker 2>coming back and the purpose you've locked up, the terrorists

0:32:29.480 --> 0:32:32.640
<v Speaker 2>we locked up have been released. You're taking some losses

0:32:33.560 --> 0:32:37.200
<v Speaker 2>and going and doing a job we believe we did

0:32:37.240 --> 0:32:40.560
<v Speaker 2>a really good job, and not having much of an

0:32:40.560 --> 0:32:45.040
<v Speaker 2>outcome or effect. Essentially what the conditions the government putting

0:32:45.120 --> 0:32:48.120
<v Speaker 2>us through or we were going under. Maybe not the government,

0:32:48.160 --> 0:32:52.959
<v Speaker 2>they were asking defense for an outcome. So military hierarchy,

0:32:53.320 --> 0:32:56.840
<v Speaker 2>and there's Burnsy in the movie in the documentary said

0:32:57.000 --> 0:32:59.960
<v Speaker 2>we won every battle, and so we gave the hierarchy

0:33:00.680 --> 0:33:04.400
<v Speaker 2>every chance is to succeed. But here we are. So

0:33:04.520 --> 0:33:09.280
<v Speaker 2>essentially those conditions are very very similar to what the

0:33:09.360 --> 0:33:14.160
<v Speaker 2>hunter kill missions in Vietnam were. And you've got these

0:33:15.520 --> 0:33:19.560
<v Speaker 2>soldiers going through taking hits, going over the same area,

0:33:19.640 --> 0:33:23.520
<v Speaker 2>doing the same job, not having an enduring effect while

0:33:23.560 --> 0:33:27.400
<v Speaker 2>taking losses, and so you end up with the Malee massacre. Now,

0:33:27.400 --> 0:33:28.640
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if everyone's form me with.

0:33:28.640 --> 0:33:33.440
<v Speaker 1>That familiar with the US troops and the village inn.

0:33:33.240 --> 0:33:34.920
<v Speaker 2>And so you're taking those hits and then all of

0:33:34.960 --> 0:33:37.640
<v Speaker 2>a sudden, a good idea, the psychopath in the troop

0:33:38.080 --> 0:33:42.160
<v Speaker 2>I says, let's do the village. And this is where

0:33:42.200 --> 0:33:44.960
<v Speaker 2>good leadership comes in and no, we're not going to

0:33:45.000 --> 0:33:48.480
<v Speaker 2>do the village. And so I think the conditions we

0:33:48.560 --> 0:33:50.840
<v Speaker 2>were put under and the fact that we didn't do

0:33:50.920 --> 0:33:54.520
<v Speaker 2>that is testament, which then when you come back and

0:33:54.560 --> 0:33:57.680
<v Speaker 2>get accused of doing that, is it hurts.

0:33:58.280 --> 0:34:02.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it does. We'll talk in more detail later on

0:34:02.480 --> 0:34:06.920
<v Speaker 1>in the podcast about the leadership and their reaction. But leadership,

0:34:07.680 --> 0:34:11.359
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. I think leadership is lacking in so

0:34:11.400 --> 0:34:16.759
<v Speaker 1>many different areas. And I can relate with police. Hard job.

0:34:16.960 --> 0:34:18.640
<v Speaker 1>If it go out and do it, do all the

0:34:18.680 --> 0:34:21.160
<v Speaker 1>hard work. If it's a success, you have all these

0:34:21.160 --> 0:34:24.240
<v Speaker 1>people standing beside you. If there's a hint of problems,

0:34:24.239 --> 0:34:28.120
<v Speaker 1>everyone distanced themselves and I got sick of that. I

0:34:28.120 --> 0:34:31.200
<v Speaker 1>saw it in the police and again i'd reference at

0:34:31.200 --> 0:34:34.160
<v Speaker 1>a lesser scale than what you guys were facing. And

0:34:34.200 --> 0:34:38.160
<v Speaker 1>the other thing in the service in Afghanistan. In the

0:34:38.200 --> 0:34:40.920
<v Speaker 1>few people who I've met that were in the SAS,

0:34:40.960 --> 0:34:43.239
<v Speaker 1>I was surprised by the amount of deployments. And it

0:34:43.280 --> 0:34:45.840
<v Speaker 1>was only having a one on one conversation where it

0:34:45.920 --> 0:34:49.719
<v Speaker 1>really dawned on me how often new blokes were put

0:34:50.040 --> 0:34:51.479
<v Speaker 1>down range. Yeah.

0:34:51.520 --> 0:34:54.880
<v Speaker 2>Look, I've only just been able to admit in the

0:34:54.920 --> 0:34:57.120
<v Speaker 2>last couple of years that maybe I did go a

0:34:57.120 --> 0:35:02.279
<v Speaker 2>few too many times. So a in case where in

0:35:02.320 --> 0:35:05.239
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and seven we were hunting Ronaldo and Team

0:35:05.360 --> 0:35:08.520
<v Speaker 2>Or after he killed all those coppers and the soldiers,

0:35:09.160 --> 0:35:11.960
<v Speaker 2>and so I went with one squadron to Team Or.

0:35:14.680 --> 0:35:18.040
<v Speaker 2>That was January through to April and came back from there.

0:35:18.560 --> 0:35:20.240
<v Speaker 2>I was up with a dog as a dog Hewler,

0:35:20.239 --> 0:35:23.600
<v Speaker 2>and then I was seconded to three squadron and we

0:35:23.640 --> 0:35:29.200
<v Speaker 2>went three weeks later we went off to Afghanistan a decompressor. No, well,

0:35:29.800 --> 0:35:31.839
<v Speaker 2>I was very happy to do that at the time too,

0:35:31.960 --> 0:35:35.640
<v Speaker 2>so you know, I think maybe the high rocky, we

0:35:35.640 --> 0:35:39.239
<v Speaker 2>need to protect us from ourselves sometimes. And then two

0:35:39.239 --> 0:35:43.000
<v Speaker 2>squadron came over to Afghanistan to replace three squadron, but

0:35:43.000 --> 0:35:45.200
<v Speaker 2>they didn't have a dog Hawnler, so I stayed on.

0:35:45.280 --> 0:35:49.040
<v Speaker 2>So I think I was in Australia for maybe four

0:35:49.080 --> 0:35:51.759
<v Speaker 2>weeks that year, but I deployed bit all three squadrons,

0:35:51.760 --> 0:35:54.960
<v Speaker 2>so I'm pretty proud of that too. And then from

0:35:55.040 --> 0:35:59.279
<v Speaker 2>there I just kept rotating in twenty seven, eight eleven, nine,

0:35:59.360 --> 0:35:59.960
<v Speaker 2>eleven twelve.

0:36:00.120 --> 0:36:03.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we talked about that the other day, and I

0:36:03.600 --> 0:36:05.719
<v Speaker 1>use the analogy and I think it's apped for it.

0:36:05.800 --> 0:36:09.759
<v Speaker 1>Then that you're a soldier. If there's something happening, you'll

0:36:09.760 --> 0:36:11.400
<v Speaker 1>put your hand up for it. That's the in the

0:36:11.520 --> 0:36:14.240
<v Speaker 1>nature of the makeup of you. Someone above you needs

0:36:14.239 --> 0:36:16.880
<v Speaker 1>to look and go hold it. We do need this

0:36:16.960 --> 0:36:19.279
<v Speaker 1>bloat to rest, We do need this bloat to just

0:36:19.600 --> 0:36:22.319
<v Speaker 1>step back, clear his head before we deploy him again.

0:36:22.360 --> 0:36:24.719
<v Speaker 1>But you're not never going to do that. That's that's

0:36:24.760 --> 0:36:26.960
<v Speaker 1>the people above. And I think we use the analogy

0:36:27.000 --> 0:36:31.040
<v Speaker 1>of a trainer in the fighter's corner. Do you want

0:36:31.040 --> 0:36:32.759
<v Speaker 1>to still go out? The fighter is always going to

0:36:32.760 --> 0:36:36.120
<v Speaker 1>say yes, it's up for the trainer. They say, nay,

0:36:36.160 --> 0:36:37.359
<v Speaker 1>you've had nothing to throw the.

0:36:37.320 --> 0:36:40.480
<v Speaker 2>Towel in for him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, and

0:36:40.520 --> 0:36:43.040
<v Speaker 2>the fighter will get angry. And if they'd have told

0:36:43.080 --> 0:36:44.360
<v Speaker 2>me that back in the day, I would have been

0:36:44.400 --> 0:36:48.439
<v Speaker 2>pissed off too. Yeah, only toys out of the COT

0:36:49.560 --> 0:36:50.520
<v Speaker 2>I understand.

0:36:51.080 --> 0:36:54.080
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's let's wind it back a little bit. The

0:36:54.120 --> 0:36:58.560
<v Speaker 1>selection course for the sas what. Yeah, it's notoriously hard.

0:36:58.800 --> 0:37:02.200
<v Speaker 1>The success rate miniscule compared to the amount of people

0:37:02.200 --> 0:37:04.480
<v Speaker 1>that try out. And I should point out the people

0:37:04.480 --> 0:37:07.920
<v Speaker 1>that try out for the selection course rate themselves to

0:37:07.960 --> 0:37:10.360
<v Speaker 1>start with, It's not just Joe average. It's people that

0:37:10.400 --> 0:37:13.200
<v Speaker 1>have been or should be training for it, pre pairing

0:37:13.239 --> 0:37:15.120
<v Speaker 1>for it, and think they've got the attributes for it.

0:37:15.600 --> 0:37:17.759
<v Speaker 1>What was it about you that thought I can do this?

0:37:19.040 --> 0:37:21.759
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, It's just it was something that I'd

0:37:21.760 --> 0:37:24.879
<v Speaker 2>always wanted to do from a little kid. So now

0:37:24.960 --> 0:37:29.719
<v Speaker 2>I've spoken about my grandfather earlier. You know, he was

0:37:29.800 --> 0:37:36.200
<v Speaker 2>commissioned in Egypt or some Middle East and came back

0:37:36.239 --> 0:37:40.160
<v Speaker 2>to Australia and was sent off with the militia the

0:37:40.280 --> 0:37:45.000
<v Speaker 2>reserves to Boganville where he wanted to join the Independent

0:37:45.040 --> 0:37:48.200
<v Speaker 2>Company so Special Forces and some of his mates did,

0:37:48.239 --> 0:37:50.680
<v Speaker 2>but they said no, we need experienced officers. And so

0:37:50.800 --> 0:37:53.680
<v Speaker 2>that was always something that was interesting me. So you

0:37:53.760 --> 0:37:55.879
<v Speaker 2>want to serve at the highest level that you can,

0:37:56.640 --> 0:37:59.600
<v Speaker 2>and the ESAs was always it. So I grew up

0:38:00.120 --> 0:38:03.759
<v Speaker 2>says magazines and books and military history, so it was

0:38:03.920 --> 0:38:06.640
<v Speaker 2>always a goal. And so it was that was really

0:38:06.680 --> 0:38:11.719
<v Speaker 2>my why, and so it was never like I'm a

0:38:11.719 --> 0:38:13.560
<v Speaker 2>bit worried about this or I'm not going to do it.

0:38:13.560 --> 0:38:15.600
<v Speaker 2>So it never really entered my mind. And this is

0:38:15.600 --> 0:38:18.640
<v Speaker 2>where I'd say to people, I want to do selections

0:38:18.719 --> 0:38:22.000
<v Speaker 2>and go, well, what's your why it's And it's a

0:38:22.080 --> 0:38:25.600
<v Speaker 2>really interesting question. Well why it's a job. You can

0:38:25.640 --> 0:38:28.560
<v Speaker 2>do any job for money, you really need to have

0:38:28.640 --> 0:38:32.400
<v Speaker 2>it deep, deep, trenched entrenched in you. And so I

0:38:32.440 --> 0:38:35.080
<v Speaker 2>went over there and said I'm here, I'm going to

0:38:35.120 --> 0:38:38.120
<v Speaker 2>do this and going to and they take me or

0:38:38.160 --> 0:38:41.640
<v Speaker 2>they don't. And I've done everything that I can beforehand

0:38:42.160 --> 0:38:44.399
<v Speaker 2>to prep before it. And if in fact, you get

0:38:44.400 --> 0:38:48.600
<v Speaker 2>this withdraw own request form and they give that to you,

0:38:49.360 --> 0:38:53.840
<v Speaker 2>and I chucked it out. I'm here for three weeks.

0:38:53.880 --> 0:38:56.040
<v Speaker 2>Whatever you need to do, you want me to do,

0:38:56.400 --> 0:38:58.239
<v Speaker 2>and if you want to get rid of me, yeah,

0:38:58.360 --> 0:38:58.759
<v Speaker 2>so be.

0:38:58.719 --> 0:39:00.879
<v Speaker 1>It as a statement of it, then your back pocket,

0:39:00.960 --> 0:39:02.400
<v Speaker 1>get rid of it.

0:39:02.800 --> 0:39:05.920
<v Speaker 2>The mindset, I think I can't remember. Was it burnt

0:39:05.920 --> 0:39:06.640
<v Speaker 2>all these ships?

0:39:08.120 --> 0:39:10.880
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah yeah, ancient history.

0:39:10.960 --> 0:39:13.759
<v Speaker 2>Ancient history burned all the ships. So it gets the

0:39:13.800 --> 0:39:14.520
<v Speaker 2>soldiers to fight.

0:39:15.239 --> 0:39:18.400
<v Speaker 1>We've got nowhere to go now. Yeah, it's a good mentality.

0:39:19.000 --> 0:39:22.080
<v Speaker 1>The perception is it's very physical, which it is, and

0:39:22.320 --> 0:39:24.439
<v Speaker 1>you have to have mental toughness, but there's a lot

0:39:24.480 --> 0:39:27.160
<v Speaker 1>more that goes into it. There's a psychological component. I

0:39:27.160 --> 0:39:30.880
<v Speaker 1>would imagine that going through that three week selection course.

0:39:31.320 --> 0:39:34.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so look, I think anybody can finish selection. Where

0:39:34.960 --> 0:39:36.880
<v Speaker 2>do you get picked up or not is a different

0:39:36.960 --> 0:39:39.600
<v Speaker 2>kettle of fish. And soy a lot of the guys

0:39:40.640 --> 0:39:45.200
<v Speaker 2>computer skills trainability. So you know, you get a whole

0:39:45.200 --> 0:39:47.480
<v Speaker 2>lot of lessons in the first few days that you're

0:39:47.520 --> 0:39:51.719
<v Speaker 2>there without much sleep. Then you're expected to recall those

0:39:51.760 --> 0:39:58.000
<v Speaker 2>skills at different points throughout the course and replicate, like

0:39:58.200 --> 0:40:01.319
<v Speaker 2>display those skills and you know you've just had a

0:40:01.320 --> 0:40:05.000
<v Speaker 2>forty minute lesson on something, then replicate it over and

0:40:05.000 --> 0:40:07.720
<v Speaker 2>over again with no sleep and food. And I remember

0:40:08.160 --> 0:40:11.160
<v Speaker 2>setting up a Pulley system that we'd been taught early

0:40:11.640 --> 0:40:14.840
<v Speaker 2>earlier in the course, and this is later in the course.

0:40:15.080 --> 0:40:18.000
<v Speaker 2>We've had no sleep for a few days and no food,

0:40:18.520 --> 0:40:23.399
<v Speaker 2>set it up, pulling a vehicle along, and then you've

0:40:23.440 --> 0:40:25.879
<v Speaker 2>got to reset and reset it again, and then went

0:40:25.920 --> 0:40:27.920
<v Speaker 2>to do it the third time and I've forgotten how

0:40:27.960 --> 0:40:30.839
<v Speaker 2>to do it. So the sleep deprivation and every it

0:40:30.960 --> 0:40:33.880
<v Speaker 2>just has that effect on it. So being able to

0:40:33.920 --> 0:40:37.600
<v Speaker 2>replicate those skills to a certain extent is really important

0:40:37.760 --> 0:40:41.000
<v Speaker 2>and tough too, because you know what what lack of

0:40:41.040 --> 0:40:41.719
<v Speaker 2>sleep does to.

0:40:41.719 --> 0:40:44.759
<v Speaker 1>You, just well under that, under that pressure and lack

0:40:44.760 --> 0:40:47.640
<v Speaker 1>of sleep. It strips you down to its roorus, isn't it.

0:40:47.719 --> 0:40:49.919
<v Speaker 1>And that's where the character of a person would come out,

0:40:49.960 --> 0:40:53.080
<v Speaker 1>and the skill set and everything that you need.

0:40:53.280 --> 0:40:55.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that's that's where you're truly exposed. And you

0:40:55.760 --> 0:40:58.600
<v Speaker 2>have people that really just wanted to do it because

0:40:58.600 --> 0:41:01.000
<v Speaker 2>they thought that it was a good idea or make

0:41:01.080 --> 0:41:04.040
<v Speaker 2>somebody else proud, but it's not really something they wanted

0:41:04.080 --> 0:41:06.759
<v Speaker 2>to do. And then they start going, oh, look, I

0:41:06.760 --> 0:41:09.200
<v Speaker 2>don't want to do this anymore my family. You didn't

0:41:09.239 --> 0:41:12.200
<v Speaker 2>think about that before, but these sort of things start

0:41:12.239 --> 0:41:15.359
<v Speaker 2>to come up. And then once you get exposed, where

0:41:15.360 --> 0:41:17.759
<v Speaker 2>do you recognize it yourself that you don't belong there?

0:41:18.200 --> 0:41:21.760
<v Speaker 2>The staff recognized for you belong there or not pretty quickly.

0:41:22.200 --> 0:41:25.279
<v Speaker 1>And you've made an interesting point. But I see where

0:41:25.400 --> 0:41:27.440
<v Speaker 1>you're coming from in that what do you want to

0:41:27.440 --> 0:41:27.600
<v Speaker 1>do it?

0:41:27.680 --> 0:41:27.799
<v Speaker 2>Now?

0:41:27.840 --> 0:41:32.239
<v Speaker 1>I imagine how cool I'm in the SAS that people would

0:41:32.239 --> 0:41:33.880
<v Speaker 1>be driven by that, what do you want to do

0:41:34.000 --> 0:41:35.880
<v Speaker 1>or want to be in the sas? But without really

0:41:35.880 --> 0:41:39.359
<v Speaker 1>thinking about it, but your mentality if I'm understanding that

0:41:39.400 --> 0:41:42.080
<v Speaker 1>here is you were going to be in the SAS.

0:41:42.160 --> 0:41:44.560
<v Speaker 1>This is what I've always wanted to do and failure

0:41:44.640 --> 0:41:45.800
<v Speaker 1>was not an option for you.

0:41:45.840 --> 0:41:49.440
<v Speaker 2>No, No, I had done a clearance diver selection and pasted.

0:41:50.239 --> 0:41:54.239
<v Speaker 2>Previously I had to transfer into the Navy, but that's

0:41:54.320 --> 0:41:58.680
<v Speaker 2>because so Command had lost my application for SAS and gone,

0:41:58.680 --> 0:42:00.080
<v Speaker 2>stuff is I'm going to go and do this? And

0:42:00.080 --> 0:42:02.600
<v Speaker 2>then they found it and said, oh, you're on pre

0:42:02.680 --> 0:42:04.919
<v Speaker 2>selection in a few weeks, and then selections a couple

0:42:04.920 --> 0:42:07.160
<v Speaker 2>weeks after that. Right, be Fortunately I was pretty fit.

0:42:07.520 --> 0:42:11.960
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you got through selection, but that's not the end

0:42:12.000 --> 0:42:14.640
<v Speaker 1>of you can't rest on your laurels. Then a lot

0:42:14.640 --> 0:42:16.240
<v Speaker 1>of the training starts at that point.

0:42:16.480 --> 0:42:20.200
<v Speaker 2>No, so then you've got an eighteen months hotline to

0:42:20.239 --> 0:42:20.640
<v Speaker 2>go through.

0:42:21.160 --> 0:42:24.560
<v Speaker 1>Quite I've been told to ignore you. I'm going to

0:42:24.560 --> 0:42:26.640
<v Speaker 1>put it in practice. He breaks me down.

0:42:26.840 --> 0:42:31.239
<v Speaker 2>Okay, oh yeah, that's a superpower. Where was I?

0:42:31.360 --> 0:42:31.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

0:42:31.600 --> 0:42:35.360
<v Speaker 2>So the selection course and then then it's about an

0:42:35.400 --> 0:42:38.360
<v Speaker 2>eighteen month pipeline two before you get into the squadron.

0:42:38.520 --> 0:42:41.400
<v Speaker 2>And so you've got all these different skill sets. So

0:42:41.960 --> 0:42:44.839
<v Speaker 2>some are physical and then you've got mental ones. So

0:42:45.560 --> 0:42:53.120
<v Speaker 2>I did medical, other guys to comp coms and driving, shooting, patrolling,

0:42:53.600 --> 0:42:58.759
<v Speaker 2>counter terrorist studio, urban ops, yeah, CQB. And so at

0:42:58.800 --> 0:43:01.319
<v Speaker 2>any point you can fail one of those and you

0:43:01.360 --> 0:43:03.319
<v Speaker 2>might get invited back the next year, but it sort

0:43:03.360 --> 0:43:09.400
<v Speaker 2>of sets you back till the next year, so it's constant.

0:43:09.400 --> 0:43:14.280
<v Speaker 2>And so maintaining that focus and that the fitness without

0:43:14.280 --> 0:43:19.520
<v Speaker 2>getting injured, and then assimilating those lessons and presenting the

0:43:19.600 --> 0:43:23.360
<v Speaker 2>instructors with those skill sets to the required standard is

0:43:25.280 --> 0:43:27.319
<v Speaker 2>it was the best couple of years of your life too,

0:43:27.400 --> 0:43:30.040
<v Speaker 2>because you've got that one group of guys that you're

0:43:30.080 --> 0:43:33.880
<v Speaker 2>always with and so it's quite a bonding experience. And

0:43:33.920 --> 0:43:40.120
<v Speaker 2>so these friendships are forged under under under pressure.

0:43:39.880 --> 0:43:44.200
<v Speaker 1>When you went for selection and got in the sas too,

0:43:44.560 --> 0:43:47.319
<v Speaker 1>we were at war, so it was fairly clear where

0:43:47.360 --> 0:43:49.560
<v Speaker 1>you would be going and where you would be deployed.

0:43:49.560 --> 0:43:52.120
<v Speaker 1>That wasn't a case of okay, I'm going to practice

0:43:52.120 --> 0:43:55.560
<v Speaker 1>and train and train, You're going to be deployed. Did

0:43:55.600 --> 0:43:57.880
<v Speaker 1>that cross your mind? And you weighed all that.

0:43:58.040 --> 0:44:01.480
<v Speaker 2>Up, couldn't wait, couldn't wait to get there? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah,

0:44:01.560 --> 0:44:05.600
<v Speaker 2>Now maybe that's not such a smart thing, but I

0:44:05.640 --> 0:44:08.640
<v Speaker 2>wish for I do understand, yeah, and so yeah, you

0:44:08.719 --> 0:44:11.680
<v Speaker 2>just want to get out there and put that I've

0:44:11.680 --> 0:44:13.560
<v Speaker 2>done the training and I want to get after it.

0:44:14.160 --> 0:44:17.360
<v Speaker 1>So how many times were you deployed in Afghanistan?

0:44:18.080 --> 0:44:18.800
<v Speaker 2>Six or seven?

0:44:19.120 --> 0:44:23.200
<v Speaker 1>With the essays, Yeah, and towards the latter part, you're

0:44:23.239 --> 0:44:26.000
<v Speaker 1>as a commander patrol commanders.

0:44:25.640 --> 0:44:28.560
<v Speaker 2>Too, I see. And then then kind of after I

0:44:28.600 --> 0:44:33.600
<v Speaker 2>got promoted after our last rotation to patrol commander set right, Unfortunately,

0:44:33.680 --> 0:44:36.560
<v Speaker 2>then I had surgery and I got two new hips, right,

0:44:36.880 --> 0:44:37.640
<v Speaker 2>and that kind.

0:44:37.440 --> 0:44:40.840
<v Speaker 1>Of you've moved around all right for two new hips.

0:44:41.040 --> 0:44:43.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well they're the best joints in my body.

0:44:44.080 --> 0:44:47.919
<v Speaker 1>Upgraded, yep, graded, Okay, your first deployment, and I look,

0:44:47.960 --> 0:44:50.920
<v Speaker 1>we're talking light about this, but I think something that

0:44:51.000 --> 0:44:55.279
<v Speaker 1>came across in the documentary Bravery and Betrayal was the

0:44:55.280 --> 0:44:57.600
<v Speaker 1>work that you're doing, Like it wasn't you weren't going

0:44:57.640 --> 0:44:59.960
<v Speaker 1>over there and something might happen. You were going look

0:45:00.000 --> 0:45:02.719
<v Speaker 1>looking for something to happen. That was the nature of

0:45:03.320 --> 0:45:04.399
<v Speaker 1>your duties over there.

0:45:05.000 --> 0:45:11.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean we were hunting people essentially, So you

0:45:11.239 --> 0:45:14.080
<v Speaker 2>don't go out there to avoid trouble, I guess. And

0:45:14.440 --> 0:45:16.960
<v Speaker 2>at the start, you go outside the gate and you

0:45:17.080 --> 0:45:19.080
<v Speaker 2>get into a gunfight, and then you have to go

0:45:19.160 --> 0:45:21.239
<v Speaker 2>further to get a gunfight. So we were having a

0:45:21.280 --> 0:45:25.600
<v Speaker 2>stabilizing effect which then enabled the regular forces to come

0:45:25.640 --> 0:45:30.640
<v Speaker 2>in and start doing that mentoring and reconstructing. At the

0:45:30.640 --> 0:45:34.239
<v Speaker 2>early days, we were doing a lot of reconnaissance with

0:45:34.360 --> 0:45:38.520
<v Speaker 2>the vehicles and driving all around all over the countryside

0:45:38.960 --> 0:45:44.080
<v Speaker 2>getting some situational awareness. And then as the bubble expanded

0:45:45.400 --> 0:45:48.240
<v Speaker 2>of stability I guess you call it around Taran count,

0:45:48.719 --> 0:45:52.719
<v Speaker 2>that sort of evolved into the kill capture missions where

0:45:52.719 --> 0:45:58.040
<v Speaker 2>we were targeting hierarchy, and the American helicopters really really

0:45:58.120 --> 0:46:00.560
<v Speaker 2>helped us with that. When we didn't have them. We

0:46:01.560 --> 0:46:05.359
<v Speaker 2>drive out and you know, park up and then walk

0:46:06.040 --> 0:46:08.799
<v Speaker 2>to ten kilometers to the target, so we're sort of

0:46:08.800 --> 0:46:10.279
<v Speaker 2>offset and then walk in.

0:46:10.440 --> 0:46:15.160
<v Speaker 1>So and that was again played out in the documentary.

0:46:15.160 --> 0:46:17.879
<v Speaker 1>But initially you had vehicles that you had to get

0:46:17.920 --> 0:46:21.759
<v Speaker 1>to your locations, and then you got the American helicopters

0:46:22.440 --> 0:46:23.400
<v Speaker 1>dropping you in closer.

0:46:23.600 --> 0:46:26.239
<v Speaker 2>And so, as I said before, I was lucky that

0:46:26.320 --> 0:46:29.040
<v Speaker 2>I was there for so many rotations early days because

0:46:29.200 --> 0:46:32.480
<v Speaker 2>I got the CD the spike in in the IED.

0:46:32.719 --> 0:46:36.160
<v Speaker 2>So they're changing tactics body enemy. They went from well

0:46:36.160 --> 0:46:38.799
<v Speaker 2>we're getting our asses kicked in gunfights, so let's start

0:46:38.880 --> 0:46:42.080
<v Speaker 2>laying IEDs. And so I was riding around on a

0:46:42.080 --> 0:46:44.160
<v Speaker 2>six yel motorbike with a dog box on the back.

0:46:44.239 --> 0:46:47.120
<v Speaker 2>So I was very cognizant of that that rise in

0:46:47.160 --> 0:46:49.440
<v Speaker 2>the threat, and so I found I rode around the

0:46:49.480 --> 0:46:53.640
<v Speaker 2>IEDs instead of over them. Basically your homemade explosive. So

0:46:53.880 --> 0:46:58.759
<v Speaker 2>they get ammonium nitrate and some fuel oil and then

0:46:58.800 --> 0:47:02.799
<v Speaker 2>they'll make up that goes high order explodes. They'll have

0:47:03.360 --> 0:47:06.480
<v Speaker 2>an initiating charge within that, and so that'll be buried

0:47:06.560 --> 0:47:10.279
<v Speaker 2>under the ground with a pressure plate that as you

0:47:10.400 --> 0:47:13.080
<v Speaker 2>drive over it, it'll make the contact with the batteries

0:47:13.239 --> 0:47:16.800
<v Speaker 2>and set the charge off. But I was in nine

0:47:17.080 --> 0:47:20.239
<v Speaker 2>vehicle packets that had to hit i EDS. I got

0:47:20.239 --> 0:47:23.440
<v Speaker 2>to see where they were put and start to understand it.

0:47:23.480 --> 0:47:26.880
<v Speaker 2>And that's played out the next year when I was

0:47:26.920 --> 0:47:29.280
<v Speaker 2>in the vehicle in front of Sean McCarthy. But I

0:47:29.400 --> 0:47:33.239
<v Speaker 2>drove around that spot right. Unfortunately they didn't see where

0:47:33.239 --> 0:47:36.320
<v Speaker 2>we went and then hit that I ed it.

0:47:37.280 --> 0:47:40.040
<v Speaker 1>It is the nature of war where there would be

0:47:40.080 --> 0:47:43.040
<v Speaker 1>a psychological impact with the EDS. I would imagine every

0:47:43.239 --> 0:47:47.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah you're driving and a gun battle, you see it coming,

0:47:47.239 --> 0:47:52.880
<v Speaker 1>you know, but there's never downtime. Yeah, you're always at

0:47:52.960 --> 0:47:54.320
<v Speaker 1>that hyper alert.

0:47:54.640 --> 0:47:58.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, every bump you hit or you don't quite have

0:47:58.320 --> 0:48:00.880
<v Speaker 2>the clearance and your scrape over something and everyone just

0:48:01.800 --> 0:48:03.799
<v Speaker 2>and then you laugh at each other and continue on.

0:48:04.200 --> 0:48:08.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I reckon the question, and I'm asking this, and

0:48:08.600 --> 0:48:10.520
<v Speaker 1>I think a lot of people would ask the same.

0:48:11.360 --> 0:48:14.399
<v Speaker 1>Your first contact when you're downrange and bullets are coming

0:48:14.440 --> 0:48:17.040
<v Speaker 1>back at you, and that did you know how you're

0:48:17.080 --> 0:48:19.400
<v Speaker 1>going to react? Or do you wonder how you get react?

0:48:19.440 --> 0:48:21.560
<v Speaker 1>Because I hear a lot of people talk about I

0:48:21.640 --> 0:48:23.560
<v Speaker 1>wonder how I'll react in that situation.

0:48:24.160 --> 0:48:29.120
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I was quite overwhelming. Yeah, you don't kind of

0:48:29.120 --> 0:48:32.360
<v Speaker 2>think about that, and then it happens. I guess you

0:48:32.400 --> 0:48:35.279
<v Speaker 2>do wonder about it. Yeah, you're scared, but it's what

0:48:35.320 --> 0:48:37.560
<v Speaker 2>you do when you're scared, and so that that training

0:48:37.680 --> 0:48:40.680
<v Speaker 2>sort of kicks in and then you get it after it.

0:48:40.719 --> 0:48:44.520
<v Speaker 2>And so this is where in the teams it's not

0:48:44.600 --> 0:48:46.759
<v Speaker 2>about you, it's about the guys to the left and

0:48:46.800 --> 0:48:49.760
<v Speaker 2>the right of and so you get over that initial

0:48:49.760 --> 0:48:52.080
<v Speaker 2>fear for yourself and then you step up and do

0:48:52.120 --> 0:48:55.040
<v Speaker 2>it for the guys around you, which then when you

0:48:55.120 --> 0:48:57.200
<v Speaker 2>get out of the military, that does become a bit

0:48:57.200 --> 0:48:59.320
<v Speaker 2>of a problem because you're not doing those things.

0:49:00.200 --> 0:49:03.759
<v Speaker 1>I would imagine to that your first gun battle, there's

0:49:03.760 --> 0:49:07.200
<v Speaker 1>a lot of adrenaline running. Yeah, next one not that

0:49:07.239 --> 0:49:10.880
<v Speaker 1>as much, and you get conditioned to it, desensitized to it.

0:49:11.000 --> 0:49:14.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think. I think, so you learned to zig

0:49:14.920 --> 0:49:17.480
<v Speaker 2>and zag when you're supposed to as opposed to Yeah,

0:49:17.520 --> 0:49:20.359
<v Speaker 2>the first one, what the hell's going on here? And

0:49:20.480 --> 0:49:25.239
<v Speaker 2>you too, audles, Yeah, sitting where's that coming from?

0:49:25.320 --> 0:49:25.440
<v Speaker 1>All?

0:49:25.440 --> 0:49:28.120
<v Speaker 2>What's going on? And then you know, fast forward to

0:49:28.200 --> 0:49:32.040
<v Speaker 2>twenty twelve where I remember I was in a close

0:49:32.120 --> 0:49:36.200
<v Speaker 2>contact with the guy and he had to be dead

0:49:36.200 --> 0:49:38.120
<v Speaker 2>the rights except I did the old neo from the

0:49:38.120 --> 0:49:42.200
<v Speaker 2>matrix and just jump back to and the bullets just

0:49:42.320 --> 0:49:46.080
<v Speaker 2>went stray through. But I remember everything just slowed down

0:49:46.120 --> 0:49:48.320
<v Speaker 2>and I was kind of ended this flow state, and

0:49:49.239 --> 0:49:52.600
<v Speaker 2>so that that was where you end up being in

0:49:52.640 --> 0:49:56.960
<v Speaker 2>contact as opposed to in the first one, it's just

0:49:57.200 --> 0:49:57.879
<v Speaker 2>headless chuck.

0:49:58.120 --> 0:50:02.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Can we talk deployments? How long? If it's not

0:50:03.120 --> 0:50:05.960
<v Speaker 1>giving away any classified stuff, but how long would you

0:50:06.000 --> 0:50:06.560
<v Speaker 1>be deployed?

0:50:06.800 --> 0:50:11.960
<v Speaker 2>It's deployment, Yeah, four four to six months. Obviously there's

0:50:12.480 --> 0:50:14.680
<v Speaker 2>back to back once in two thousand and seven for me,

0:50:14.800 --> 0:50:19.960
<v Speaker 2>so a bit longer. Yeah, So about four four months

0:50:20.000 --> 0:50:23.799
<v Speaker 2>mark you start to get a little bit weary, right,

0:50:24.239 --> 0:50:27.319
<v Speaker 2>So that was perfect. But then you've got Americans going

0:50:27.360 --> 0:50:30.319
<v Speaker 2>away for twelve months, and you've got Ambertaians are out

0:50:30.360 --> 0:50:33.600
<v Speaker 2>there for six six months, and so it's you get

0:50:33.600 --> 0:50:35.920
<v Speaker 2>to that four months mark. And I remember even we

0:50:35.960 --> 0:50:38.240
<v Speaker 2>did the six months in team or after four months,

0:50:38.239 --> 0:50:41.080
<v Speaker 2>you start to get a little bit jaded and vary

0:50:41.160 --> 0:50:44.000
<v Speaker 2>and so losing that edge and.

0:50:43.920 --> 0:50:48.279
<v Speaker 1>When mistakes are made. Get to that point and in

0:50:48.320 --> 0:50:51.400
<v Speaker 1>that deployment the average deployment and I know the nature

0:50:51.400 --> 0:50:54.719
<v Speaker 1>of the war changed over the years, but you were

0:50:54.719 --> 0:50:57.280
<v Speaker 1>out and about. That wasn't sitting around for four months.

0:50:57.280 --> 0:51:00.759
<v Speaker 1>And you get one outside the gates. You're going out

0:51:00.800 --> 0:51:01.080
<v Speaker 1>all the.

0:51:01.040 --> 0:51:04.920
<v Speaker 2>Time, no, yeah, constantly hunting. Yeah, And so as you

0:51:05.000 --> 0:51:09.640
<v Speaker 2>come back de service reservice and then start getting ready

0:51:09.680 --> 0:51:13.319
<v Speaker 2>for the next job. And even the kill capture ones

0:51:13.360 --> 0:51:17.440
<v Speaker 2>where time sensitive where we'd find out where they were

0:51:17.800 --> 0:51:19.719
<v Speaker 2>and wheels up and off you go. You come back

0:51:19.760 --> 0:51:22.839
<v Speaker 2>and then we rebomb and get ready for the next

0:51:22.920 --> 0:51:26.240
<v Speaker 2>job where it was that afternoon the next day wherever

0:51:26.320 --> 0:51:27.320
<v Speaker 2>we'll find a target.

0:51:27.680 --> 0:51:30.560
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you're out and about and that's I think

0:51:30.600 --> 0:51:33.919
<v Speaker 1>that's why I would encourage people to have a look

0:51:33.920 --> 0:51:36.400
<v Speaker 1>at this film, because I think there's a misconception of

0:51:36.400 --> 0:51:39.520
<v Speaker 1>what happens over there and they see going to wall.

0:51:39.560 --> 0:51:41.160
<v Speaker 1>But you guys were at it the whole.

0:51:40.960 --> 0:51:46.040
<v Speaker 2>Time, even early days two thousand and seven, I was

0:51:46.360 --> 0:51:50.360
<v Speaker 2>actually kicked off to the Commandos because OC said I

0:51:50.360 --> 0:51:52.000
<v Speaker 2>don't have any use for dogs, and I went to

0:51:52.040 --> 0:51:55.200
<v Speaker 2>the Commandos, which that company that was there at the

0:51:55.200 --> 0:51:57.399
<v Speaker 2>time was my old peer group from when I went

0:51:57.440 --> 0:51:59.759
<v Speaker 2>to Team or with them, and so they were all

0:51:59.800 --> 0:52:03.080
<v Speaker 2>now next level up. And so a big shout out

0:52:03.080 --> 0:52:06.560
<v Speaker 2>to those guys for taking me on and helping develop

0:52:06.560 --> 0:52:10.440
<v Speaker 2>the capabilit Because that was still early days, and because

0:52:10.480 --> 0:52:13.719
<v Speaker 2>I was the only dog handler. We were out in

0:52:13.719 --> 0:52:17.799
<v Speaker 2>the desert for a few weeks maneuvering around, and each

0:52:17.960 --> 0:52:22.200
<v Speaker 2>each night we would do a hit and so and

0:52:22.239 --> 0:52:24.839
<v Speaker 2>then sometimes it'd be one during the day. So one

0:52:24.920 --> 0:52:28.040
<v Speaker 2>platoon would go out down and do the job while

0:52:28.040 --> 0:52:31.040
<v Speaker 2>the other stayed in overwatch. But I would flip flop

0:52:31.080 --> 0:52:34.040
<v Speaker 2>between platoons and so me, my dog did done I

0:52:34.080 --> 0:52:35.920
<v Speaker 2>think sixteen hits in fourteen days.

0:52:36.239 --> 0:52:36.520
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

0:52:36.600 --> 0:52:39.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, really after that.

0:52:39.400 --> 0:52:42.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it has to has to take it. Stop with

0:52:42.760 --> 0:52:46.000
<v Speaker 1>the dogs. Tell me how they're used in that type

0:52:46.000 --> 0:52:46.640
<v Speaker 1>of environment.

0:52:47.239 --> 0:52:50.239
<v Speaker 2>So in the early age, we didn't really know what

0:52:50.280 --> 0:52:51.839
<v Speaker 2>we were doing because we went and did an Air

0:52:51.880 --> 0:52:56.440
<v Speaker 2>Force dog handler course and so came back, how do

0:52:56.520 --> 0:53:00.000
<v Speaker 2>we use it in special Forces? And so played around

0:53:00.160 --> 0:53:04.480
<v Speaker 2>with it. Eventually, as the capability matured, we would use

0:53:04.520 --> 0:53:08.640
<v Speaker 2>them out in front of the teams as an early

0:53:08.680 --> 0:53:11.320
<v Speaker 2>warning when we're moving through a complex terrain.

0:53:12.320 --> 0:53:15.240
<v Speaker 1>So to give an example of people that don't understand,

0:53:15.239 --> 0:53:19.520
<v Speaker 1>you're out with how many in the unit and just

0:53:19.600 --> 0:53:24.120
<v Speaker 1>roughly of us and you've got the dog out front.

0:53:24.920 --> 0:53:28.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so in vegetation, so we can't see through it,

0:53:28.600 --> 0:53:33.360
<v Speaker 2>but their senses can hear and smell, detect, detect the

0:53:33.480 --> 0:53:37.319
<v Speaker 2>enemy or any explosives that may be out there. So

0:53:37.640 --> 0:53:39.560
<v Speaker 2>they'll give a change in behavior on that.

0:53:40.120 --> 0:53:43.880
<v Speaker 1>And when you're working with the dog, you pick up

0:53:43.880 --> 0:53:45.759
<v Speaker 1>on that change of behavior. It might be the years

0:53:45.800 --> 0:53:47.080
<v Speaker 1>prick up or whatever.

0:53:47.280 --> 0:53:50.560
<v Speaker 2>Yes, they'll give a definite change in behavior. I'll duck

0:53:50.560 --> 0:53:56.279
<v Speaker 2>off casing something. And actually guys, other guys, as we

0:53:56.400 --> 0:53:59.560
<v Speaker 2>got used to working with the teams, they would be

0:53:59.560 --> 0:54:02.000
<v Speaker 2>able to go, I think her dog's onto something here.

0:54:02.280 --> 0:54:05.759
<v Speaker 2>So everybody started to really get into that space with

0:54:06.239 --> 0:54:09.200
<v Speaker 2>the animals as we got more for me and started

0:54:09.239 --> 0:54:11.680
<v Speaker 2>to know what we were doing too, and that that

0:54:11.760 --> 0:54:15.600
<v Speaker 2>early warning out front saved my life, saved many other lives,

0:54:15.680 --> 0:54:18.280
<v Speaker 2>like I couldn't tell you how many, And the amount

0:54:18.320 --> 0:54:22.160
<v Speaker 2>of explosives they found or munitions out on the Battle

0:54:22.160 --> 0:54:25.560
<v Speaker 2>of Space, not necessarily IED's were after that was more

0:54:25.600 --> 0:54:29.840
<v Speaker 2>the explosive detection dogs because it's only limited number hours

0:54:29.840 --> 0:54:32.560
<v Speaker 2>the training can do in one day, and so just

0:54:32.640 --> 0:54:37.880
<v Speaker 2>having dual purpose dogs was quite quite a lot of training.

0:54:37.920 --> 0:54:41.600
<v Speaker 2>So we would find weapons cases around the place.

0:54:41.360 --> 0:54:43.640
<v Speaker 1>And how the dogs when the bullets start flying and

0:54:43.880 --> 0:54:45.480
<v Speaker 1>the chaos of a gun battle.

0:54:45.640 --> 0:54:49.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they're quite excitable. They didn't worry about and so

0:54:50.200 --> 0:54:52.320
<v Speaker 2>my boy, he would get very excited. He wanted to

0:54:52.320 --> 0:54:54.840
<v Speaker 2>get after it. So sometimes we'd be punching on in

0:54:54.880 --> 0:54:57.359
<v Speaker 2>the middle of a gunfight. I'm dealing with the dog

0:54:57.400 --> 0:55:02.120
<v Speaker 2>and trying to return fire. It's like, now, okay, yeah

0:55:02.320 --> 0:55:04.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm not the only one. So yeah, people would be

0:55:04.960 --> 0:55:07.200
<v Speaker 2>looking at the dog hand of fighting with these dogs,

0:55:07.880 --> 0:55:12.600
<v Speaker 2>what the hell are you do it? Yeah, they didn't

0:55:12.640 --> 0:55:15.840
<v Speaker 2>have a problem, and they actually raised up in tempo

0:55:15.840 --> 0:55:20.440
<v Speaker 2>because I guess they could feel our state. It was

0:55:20.920 --> 0:55:25.239
<v Speaker 2>elevated as well, and so they feed off that he did.

0:55:25.480 --> 0:55:29.040
<v Speaker 1>What about the searching premises or whatever, you send the

0:55:29.040 --> 0:55:31.000
<v Speaker 1>dogs in there in that environment as well.

0:55:31.320 --> 0:55:34.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, only if we were going in obviously, if we

0:55:34.320 --> 0:55:39.319
<v Speaker 2>found an empty compound, we had the dogs could find explosives.

0:55:39.320 --> 0:55:41.799
<v Speaker 2>So there's an empty compound, there's nobody in there in

0:55:41.800 --> 0:55:46.240
<v Speaker 2>a suspect area, Well, potentially that's got IEDs and stuff

0:55:46.280 --> 0:55:48.400
<v Speaker 2>like that in there. So we might lower the dogs

0:55:48.400 --> 0:55:50.600
<v Speaker 2>over the wall and send them around with the camera

0:55:50.640 --> 0:55:54.120
<v Speaker 2>and they you know, we did find some explosives in

0:55:54.200 --> 0:55:56.680
<v Speaker 2>some places, and then we pull the dog back out

0:55:56.719 --> 0:56:01.320
<v Speaker 2>and tull the EOD Explosive Ordinance Protection guys or disposal

0:56:01.400 --> 0:56:04.920
<v Speaker 2>guys to there's something in that compound there. It's secure,

0:56:04.960 --> 0:56:08.080
<v Speaker 2>there's no enemy in there. So yours boys, we're going

0:56:08.120 --> 0:56:12.080
<v Speaker 2>to be standing back one hundred meters. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:56:12.280 --> 0:56:14.759
<v Speaker 2>And that's the other thing. Whenever I had a change

0:56:14.760 --> 0:56:16.719
<v Speaker 2>in behavior and a dog, I would recall.

0:56:16.480 --> 0:56:19.239
<v Speaker 1>Him and you would have one dog. You were the

0:56:19.280 --> 0:56:22.759
<v Speaker 1>dog's handler, so that the dog didn't share handlers. You

0:56:22.840 --> 0:56:24.120
<v Speaker 1>and the dog were the unit.

0:56:24.360 --> 0:56:27.279
<v Speaker 2>That's it. Yeah, And when you got promoted, potentially your

0:56:27.280 --> 0:56:30.359
<v Speaker 2>dog would would be passed on to somebody else if

0:56:30.719 --> 0:56:34.040
<v Speaker 2>he's still operating. And then when it came to retirement

0:56:34.120 --> 0:56:37.360
<v Speaker 2>age for the dog, the primary handler would have have

0:56:37.480 --> 0:56:39.919
<v Speaker 2>first DIBs. But if your home life or whatever it

0:56:40.000 --> 0:56:44.200
<v Speaker 2>wasn't able to accommodate a dog, and then it would

0:56:44.200 --> 0:56:47.680
<v Speaker 2>go to the second handler. Somebody would always pick those

0:56:47.760 --> 0:56:49.920
<v Speaker 2>those dogs up and take them home if they were

0:56:50.080 --> 0:56:53.600
<v Speaker 2>if we deemed them suitable. We had one one dog, Rex.

0:56:53.640 --> 0:56:55.880
<v Speaker 2>He's a little bit too loose and I've got a

0:56:55.880 --> 0:57:01.160
<v Speaker 2>big still got a big scar. Yeah, he won the

0:57:01.200 --> 0:57:03.480
<v Speaker 2>first round, but I got over the top. I've got

0:57:03.480 --> 0:57:05.640
<v Speaker 2>a probably what you call a standing eight count, but

0:57:06.360 --> 0:57:08.799
<v Speaker 2>came back for the second round. I got him. But

0:57:09.760 --> 0:57:12.520
<v Speaker 2>actually we had a really good relationship after that. But yeah,

0:57:12.520 --> 0:57:15.200
<v Speaker 2>he was just too loose for us to deem him

0:57:15.239 --> 0:57:19.840
<v Speaker 2>suitable for retirement. He's actually been stuffed and he's in

0:57:19.880 --> 0:57:21.680
<v Speaker 2>the museum at Sash right.

0:57:23.200 --> 0:57:25.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, there's a bond with the dogs, isn't there. And

0:57:25.960 --> 0:57:29.800
<v Speaker 1>I know with their casual it hits home very hard.

0:57:30.480 --> 0:57:34.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was like I've carried a couple of coffins

0:57:34.720 --> 0:57:40.160
<v Speaker 2>and of your mates remained staunch for carrying the coffins

0:57:40.200 --> 0:57:43.240
<v Speaker 2>of the dogs. It just just broke me. Yeah, feeling

0:57:43.240 --> 0:57:47.280
<v Speaker 2>your voice now. Yeah, so they excuse me.

0:57:47.400 --> 0:57:52.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, understood, Yeah, it's just yeah.

0:57:52.160 --> 0:57:56.160
<v Speaker 2>We're responsible for them. They they and I do bang

0:57:56.200 --> 0:57:59.240
<v Speaker 2>on about this, use this word. It's unconditional. They've just

0:57:59.280 --> 0:58:02.040
<v Speaker 2>been chosen. They are awesome, and so they're there for us.

0:58:02.760 --> 0:58:04.480
<v Speaker 2>You know that That part of the movie gets me

0:58:04.600 --> 0:58:05.520
<v Speaker 2>just about every time.

0:58:06.480 --> 0:58:08.360
<v Speaker 1>I think for all of us, it was I'm glad

0:58:08.400 --> 0:58:09.960
<v Speaker 1>it was. It was dark. There was a lot of

0:58:09.960 --> 0:58:13.440
<v Speaker 1>tears when the dog was lost. But I suppose they

0:58:13.480 --> 0:58:16.920
<v Speaker 1>put total trust in you. That's that's the thing. You're

0:58:17.000 --> 0:58:20.360
<v Speaker 1>You're they're looking after him and they're looking after you.

0:58:20.520 --> 0:58:23.280
<v Speaker 2>That's it. They're dished out there hunting. It's no different

0:58:23.640 --> 0:58:27.240
<v Speaker 2>training or operations. So going back to the gunfire, it

0:58:27.240 --> 0:58:28.360
<v Speaker 2>doesn't matter to them.

0:58:28.600 --> 0:58:32.000
<v Speaker 1>How did they go when they were back away from conflicts?

0:58:32.360 --> 0:58:35.280
<v Speaker 1>Just when did they decompress? How did they decompress? And

0:58:35.360 --> 0:58:39.080
<v Speaker 1>did they change personalities from the war dog to the

0:58:39.720 --> 0:58:41.040
<v Speaker 1>just the chilled out dog.

0:58:41.440 --> 0:58:43.800
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, and so that's where the clear signals and

0:58:43.880 --> 0:58:46.760
<v Speaker 2>consistence he comes in from us. I don't know if

0:58:46.760 --> 0:58:50.600
<v Speaker 2>you've seen the movie Dog Who Changed They really captured

0:58:50.600 --> 0:58:53.400
<v Speaker 2>it very well. And so you know that that dog's

0:58:53.400 --> 0:58:55.960
<v Speaker 2>handler went and knocked himself. So then the dogs without

0:58:56.160 --> 0:59:00.880
<v Speaker 2>that bond, without the stability our dogs, you know, we'd

0:59:00.920 --> 0:59:04.760
<v Speaker 2>come back and my old boy Risha, who the kennel

0:59:04.760 --> 0:59:09.960
<v Speaker 2>Bank at Swanbourne is named after. Now, when I first

0:59:09.960 --> 0:59:12.439
<v Speaker 2>got he, I remember, he's just eating his ways, trying

0:59:12.440 --> 0:59:14.640
<v Speaker 2>to easy way through the cage. How are we going

0:59:14.680 --> 0:59:17.160
<v Speaker 2>to do with this? And then we got told by

0:59:17.200 --> 0:59:19.000
<v Speaker 2>the OC that we're not allowed to. You know, I

0:59:19.080 --> 0:59:22.040
<v Speaker 2>got no interest in you. And as we evolved, the

0:59:22.080 --> 0:59:25.680
<v Speaker 2>dogs became as a bought criteria if you don't have

0:59:25.720 --> 0:59:28.600
<v Speaker 2>a dog in the fee. As we knew what we

0:59:28.680 --> 0:59:31.360
<v Speaker 2>were doing, and then the dogs and us evolved to

0:59:31.400 --> 0:59:35.800
<v Speaker 2>the point where Legacy Camp said, yeah, that that dog's

0:59:35.840 --> 0:59:37.760
<v Speaker 2>allowed to come on Legacy Camp, so he'd be playing

0:59:37.800 --> 0:59:42.320
<v Speaker 2>with children, right turn around, yeah, turn around in a

0:59:42.400 --> 0:59:45.919
<v Speaker 2>testament to the quality of the dogs, the stability of them,

0:59:46.440 --> 0:59:50.720
<v Speaker 2>and so once again training and socialization so they're not

0:59:51.240 --> 0:59:53.120
<v Speaker 2>just pulled out of the cage to go and do

0:59:53.160 --> 0:59:54.880
<v Speaker 2>a job. So didn't it I'm out of the cage.

0:59:54.920 --> 0:59:57.240
<v Speaker 2>I got to buy it something. I was socialized for

0:59:57.280 --> 0:59:59.720
<v Speaker 2>the troops, and when we're chilling, they were with us

1:00:00.320 --> 1:00:02.280
<v Speaker 2>the whole time, and so there's part of the pack.

1:00:02.360 --> 1:00:05.120
<v Speaker 2>And you know, when we're putting our body armor on

1:00:05.160 --> 1:00:08.440
<v Speaker 2>and their little harnesses on there like the rest of us,

1:00:08.680 --> 1:00:12.880
<v Speaker 2>it's game on, and we're going to and then take

1:00:12.920 --> 1:00:16.320
<v Speaker 2>that harness off and take our body armor off, and

1:00:16.360 --> 1:00:18.840
<v Speaker 2>we're just we're just a fellow and they're just another

1:00:19.160 --> 1:00:22.720
<v Speaker 2>a fun, fun dog to be around and quite stable.

1:00:23.200 --> 1:00:25.640
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, as I said, we go to the kids

1:00:25.920 --> 1:00:29.560
<v Speaker 2>legacy camps and you see some of the parents and

1:00:29.560 --> 1:00:31.720
<v Speaker 2>my dog's got kids lying all over him. You just

1:00:31.800 --> 1:00:36.440
<v Speaker 2>roll around getting fed bottom, training the kids to sneak

1:00:36.480 --> 1:00:40.760
<v Speaker 2>food off to me and parents. Ah, this dog, we

1:00:40.880 --> 1:00:45.720
<v Speaker 2>know what that one does. He was really good with kids. Yeah, yeah,

1:00:45.760 --> 1:00:50.360
<v Speaker 2>it is. So I think we don't understand or we

1:00:50.400 --> 1:00:53.600
<v Speaker 2>don't give them credit for just what they are capable of.

1:00:53.760 --> 1:00:57.160
<v Speaker 2>And so even this one here, I'm just learning so

1:00:57.280 --> 1:00:59.880
<v Speaker 2>much more, just little things that he picks up on,

1:01:00.120 --> 1:01:00.800
<v Speaker 2>so you.

1:01:00.760 --> 1:01:03.160
<v Speaker 1>Can see why they value added to a team.

1:01:03.640 --> 1:01:06.240
<v Speaker 2>And then and then you know, if somebody got knocked,

1:01:06.800 --> 1:01:10.320
<v Speaker 2>I'd be like, we don't usually get everybody impacted with

1:01:10.360 --> 1:01:13.000
<v Speaker 2>his harnesses on. You don't pack the dog it's business.

1:01:13.160 --> 1:01:15.920
<v Speaker 2>Then you know we'll be downranged somebody get killed and

1:01:16.280 --> 1:01:19.040
<v Speaker 2>you can pat the dog. So it made everybody feel

1:01:19.080 --> 1:01:21.800
<v Speaker 2>a bit better. So that there was that and even

1:01:22.000 --> 1:01:25.960
<v Speaker 2>to the extent when Sean got killed, some of the

1:01:26.000 --> 1:01:29.360
<v Speaker 2>other guys and other cars, I hope that's not the

1:01:29.400 --> 1:01:31.840
<v Speaker 2>car with a dog in it. That was the first fun.

1:01:33.280 --> 1:01:37.080
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, they just have that effect and that's that bond,

1:01:38.000 --> 1:01:41.840
<v Speaker 2>that unconditional service. We're responsible for him, and yeah, who

1:01:41.880 --> 1:01:42.640
<v Speaker 2>doesn't love a dog.

1:01:44.080 --> 1:01:48.000
<v Speaker 1>Losing colleagues over there and your mates, how did that

1:01:48.120 --> 1:01:51.520
<v Speaker 1>impact on you personally? But there's a group to if

1:01:51.560 --> 1:01:53.400
<v Speaker 1>you lose one of your own.

1:01:53.600 --> 1:01:55.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think more summed it up. It's just it's

1:01:55.920 --> 1:02:00.200
<v Speaker 2>a really hard date, tough day at the office, and

1:02:00.200 --> 1:02:03.040
<v Speaker 2>and yeah, when you're still out there on the ground

1:02:03.120 --> 1:02:07.040
<v Speaker 2>and you've just lost them and the body's been backlogged

1:02:07.360 --> 1:02:10.160
<v Speaker 2>because of act, you crack on because you've still got

1:02:10.200 --> 1:02:13.280
<v Speaker 2>a job to do. And then yeah, you come back

1:02:13.960 --> 1:02:16.800
<v Speaker 2>and it does impact your you know, once again, it's

1:02:16.800 --> 1:02:21.000
<v Speaker 2>that autism innus comes out. It Also, you don't want

1:02:21.000 --> 1:02:23.000
<v Speaker 2>to let your team mates down that are still alive,

1:02:23.080 --> 1:02:25.320
<v Speaker 2>and so you suck it up and get back out

1:02:25.360 --> 1:02:28.160
<v Speaker 2>after And I guess it's a risk that we accept

1:02:28.840 --> 1:02:30.600
<v Speaker 2>it sounds like a bit of a throw away line.

1:02:31.280 --> 1:02:35.120
<v Speaker 2>You Okay, that's that's pretty shit. Now we're confronted with

1:02:35.240 --> 1:02:37.280
<v Speaker 2>the realities of it, but you've still got a job

1:02:37.320 --> 1:02:41.840
<v Speaker 2>to do. Your mortality is really rammed home to your

1:02:41.840 --> 1:02:44.640
<v Speaker 2>own so but you've still got got to get out

1:02:44.640 --> 1:02:46.880
<v Speaker 2>there after it. And as once again, it's it's not

1:02:46.920 --> 1:02:49.240
<v Speaker 2>about me, it's about those guys that left a variety

1:02:49.280 --> 1:02:51.520
<v Speaker 2>and so you don't want to let them down, so

1:02:51.840 --> 1:02:55.280
<v Speaker 2>you step up. That's why people talk about warrior culture

1:02:55.360 --> 1:02:58.120
<v Speaker 2>is toxic and everything like that, but it's it's essentially

1:02:58.160 --> 1:03:00.960
<v Speaker 2>it's shame based. You don't want let the team down.

1:03:00.960 --> 1:03:02.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't want the mates down. I got to get

1:03:02.320 --> 1:03:05.720
<v Speaker 2>out there, and that's really what drove me to create

1:03:05.760 --> 1:03:09.840
<v Speaker 2>the dog capability. You never worked with children or animals

1:03:10.360 --> 1:03:12.240
<v Speaker 2>in specs. I'm working with both.

1:03:13.040 --> 1:03:17.040
<v Speaker 1>It's it's interesting, like you say, shame based, and you

1:03:17.040 --> 1:03:19.440
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't think that would be part of it, But I understand,

1:03:19.520 --> 1:03:22.960
<v Speaker 1>like in tactical policing, when I was doing jobs in

1:03:23.000 --> 1:03:26.960
<v Speaker 1>tactical policing, I wasn't going in scared about being injured.

1:03:26.960 --> 1:03:29.959
<v Speaker 1>You're going in worried that you might do the wrong thing. Yeah,

1:03:30.320 --> 1:03:33.640
<v Speaker 1>that was a greater fear than Okay, well if you

1:03:33.760 --> 1:03:37.600
<v Speaker 1>got injured and then went shit, that's acceptable, But what

1:03:37.640 --> 1:03:39.720
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't have been acceptable if you went in there and

1:03:39.720 --> 1:03:42.440
<v Speaker 1>stuffed up or let your mate down. It's a funny

1:03:42.520 --> 1:03:44.200
<v Speaker 1>thing that drives people.

1:03:43.960 --> 1:03:45.920
<v Speaker 2>Isn't it. I know? And I think if we had

1:03:45.960 --> 1:03:48.200
<v Speaker 2>a little bit more of that warrior culture in society,

1:03:48.640 --> 1:03:50.680
<v Speaker 2>probably a little bit of a better place. And actually

1:03:51.080 --> 1:03:54.400
<v Speaker 2>I believe that it would make coming home a lot

1:03:54.440 --> 1:03:57.560
<v Speaker 2>easier because we know what we talk about when we

1:03:57.680 --> 1:04:00.880
<v Speaker 2>say somebody has got no shame, and if the society

1:04:00.960 --> 1:04:04.320
<v Speaker 2>doesn't have any shame and you come back, then it's

1:04:04.400 --> 1:04:08.800
<v Speaker 2>really hard to contemplate. Okay, I went and did this

1:04:09.120 --> 1:04:13.360
<v Speaker 2>for for that, you know, and so you know, people

1:04:13.520 --> 1:04:17.720
<v Speaker 2>have a bit of gratitude and responsibility. Then then that

1:04:17.880 --> 1:04:20.840
<v Speaker 2>is essentially you know you're talking about you young fellows,

1:04:21.320 --> 1:04:25.760
<v Speaker 2>that responsibility that was he's taken on to from from

1:04:25.800 --> 1:04:29.600
<v Speaker 2>his military service and then he's doing, well, well, you're

1:04:29.640 --> 1:04:32.960
<v Speaker 2>proud to go and downrange for people like that and

1:04:33.560 --> 1:04:36.240
<v Speaker 2>were responsible, and so I for everyone takes a bit

1:04:36.280 --> 1:04:39.360
<v Speaker 2>more responsibility. Yeah, I'm happy to have gone and done

1:04:39.400 --> 1:04:40.040
<v Speaker 2>that for them.

1:04:40.160 --> 1:04:42.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, I understand what.

1:04:42.160 --> 1:04:43.840
<v Speaker 2>You're saying, there'll be no problems, but.

1:04:44.000 --> 1:04:47.040
<v Speaker 1>Where you're coming from, there was another and it came

1:04:47.120 --> 1:04:50.840
<v Speaker 1>up with the war crime allegations and played out in

1:04:50.880 --> 1:04:53.440
<v Speaker 1>the media and that they're talking about, and there was

1:04:53.960 --> 1:04:58.600
<v Speaker 1>films of you guys debriefing or de stressing at the

1:04:58.720 --> 1:05:03.320
<v Speaker 1>Fat Lady's arms, and that issue was addressed in the documentary,

1:05:03.320 --> 1:05:05.560
<v Speaker 1>and I think it put it in perspective. And you

1:05:05.680 --> 1:05:09.520
<v Speaker 1>had former prime ministers saying that they went there, you

1:05:09.640 --> 1:05:13.800
<v Speaker 1>had us pilots saying they went there and they respected

1:05:13.920 --> 1:05:16.240
<v Speaker 1>things that were going on in that place, and it

1:05:16.280 --> 1:05:20.760
<v Speaker 1>was just an area for you guys to decompress. I

1:05:21.280 --> 1:05:24.160
<v Speaker 1>thought it told it well. I when it first came

1:05:24.200 --> 1:05:28.520
<v Speaker 1>out and there was shock, horror. Look, everyone's misbehaving or drinking.

1:05:29.080 --> 1:05:32.040
<v Speaker 1>You've got to see how police unmined after a stressful job,

1:05:32.400 --> 1:05:35.200
<v Speaker 1>and if the cameras were on us, taken out of context,

1:05:36.040 --> 1:05:40.960
<v Speaker 1>looked terrible and shameful. But I think it was explained

1:05:41.240 --> 1:05:43.800
<v Speaker 1>very well. And for the life of me, I can't

1:05:43.840 --> 1:05:47.760
<v Speaker 1>see how people can judge people destressing When you're gone

1:05:47.800 --> 1:05:50.760
<v Speaker 1>out there serving the country following orders you got. You

1:05:50.800 --> 1:05:53.600
<v Speaker 1>can't say no, I'm not going out tonight. Or whatever.

1:05:54.000 --> 1:05:56.280
<v Speaker 1>You've got a job to do, and that seemed to

1:05:56.320 --> 1:06:00.720
<v Speaker 1>me to be a way to decompress and find light

1:06:01.160 --> 1:06:04.720
<v Speaker 1>or relief, take the pressure off. What am I reading

1:06:04.800 --> 1:06:05.160
<v Speaker 1>it right?

1:06:05.560 --> 1:06:08.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Absolutely, I didn't see. It was a little in

1:06:08.880 --> 1:06:11.920
<v Speaker 2>a sanctum that we had that safe space where you

1:06:11.920 --> 1:06:16.360
<v Speaker 2>could just unwind and whatever went on outside the why

1:06:16.520 --> 1:06:19.720
<v Speaker 2>you could have a chat about it and find a

1:06:19.800 --> 1:06:22.040
<v Speaker 2>light of sight in it and over a few beers

1:06:22.080 --> 1:06:27.320
<v Speaker 2>and just decompress and then crack on. I mean, I'll

1:06:27.320 --> 1:06:30.600
<v Speaker 2>say this in the film. Everybody that I this on

1:06:30.600 --> 1:06:34.120
<v Speaker 2>a Friday Saturday night every week and they've just got

1:06:34.120 --> 1:06:37.640
<v Speaker 2>office jobs or talking about the trials and tribulations that

1:06:37.680 --> 1:06:41.160
<v Speaker 2>went on at work. And so it's culturally, it's a thing,

1:06:41.200 --> 1:06:43.600
<v Speaker 2>and it's a thing everybody does. And so we just

1:06:43.640 --> 1:06:47.000
<v Speaker 2>happened to do it downrange and it was in that

1:06:47.040 --> 1:06:50.360
<v Speaker 2>small safe space, and we make sure that there was

1:06:50.400 --> 1:06:55.000
<v Speaker 2>still people sober and make sure that we were still

1:06:55.000 --> 1:06:59.480
<v Speaker 2>good to go for jobs potentially the next day, and

1:06:59.600 --> 1:07:03.400
<v Speaker 2>so it was done as responsibly as we could. Yeah

1:07:03.600 --> 1:07:07.400
<v Speaker 2>as well, So it was very important and that's a

1:07:07.440 --> 1:07:11.360
<v Speaker 2>lot of the feedback from the prime ministers and anybody

1:07:11.360 --> 1:07:15.640
<v Speaker 2>that went there this is awesome. So the pilots and

1:07:15.680 --> 1:07:19.200
<v Speaker 2>everybody that came in from the outside, well, we got

1:07:19.240 --> 1:07:22.600
<v Speaker 2>an invite to that in a sanctum.

1:07:22.040 --> 1:07:25.800
<v Speaker 1>And they saw it as a privilege. And it's just

1:07:25.840 --> 1:07:28.800
<v Speaker 1>something I wanted to raise because I just thought so

1:07:29.000 --> 1:07:32.920
<v Speaker 1>unfair to expect you guys doing what you do and

1:07:32.960 --> 1:07:36.480
<v Speaker 1>then what you just robots, go back clean your weapons

1:07:36.520 --> 1:07:38.800
<v Speaker 1>and then just sit waiting to be deployed again. You've

1:07:38.800 --> 1:07:40.640
<v Speaker 1>got to be able and to be able to talk

1:07:40.680 --> 1:07:44.240
<v Speaker 1>to people that understand what you just experienced makes sense

1:07:44.240 --> 1:07:47.200
<v Speaker 1>of it. I think that helps. I know it helped

1:07:47.200 --> 1:07:50.360
<v Speaker 1>in policing. Like we'd see some shit and we'd go

1:07:50.440 --> 1:07:52.040
<v Speaker 1>out and we'd get on the drink and you know,

1:07:52.280 --> 1:07:55.880
<v Speaker 1>we got a bit tardy. But yeah, it helped you.

1:07:56.080 --> 1:07:57.880
<v Speaker 1>That's how I found that. It was a way of

1:07:57.920 --> 1:08:00.400
<v Speaker 1>caping with the stress. And we talk about black humor

1:08:00.400 --> 1:08:03.040
<v Speaker 1>and we say things that, ye are inappropriate, but in

1:08:03.240 --> 1:08:06.400
<v Speaker 1>context and how it was said and what was done

1:08:06.800 --> 1:08:09.160
<v Speaker 1>is appropriate in the context. Yeah, well, the.

1:08:09.600 --> 1:08:13.200
<v Speaker 2>Black humor, and I think what people call inappropriate or triggering,

1:08:14.480 --> 1:08:17.680
<v Speaker 2>if you can go there without humor, you're pretty much

1:08:17.760 --> 1:08:19.599
<v Speaker 2>not that. If you do a racist joke or a

1:08:19.600 --> 1:08:23.559
<v Speaker 2>sexious joke. You can joke about things. I'm pretty confident

1:08:23.600 --> 1:08:25.840
<v Speaker 2>that you're not that. It's the ones that get offended

1:08:26.120 --> 1:08:29.280
<v Speaker 2>by that and go, that's that's what you probably are.

1:08:29.400 --> 1:08:32.200
<v Speaker 2>Because people speak out loudest against that what they fear

1:08:32.200 --> 1:08:33.680
<v Speaker 2>they are most run that.

1:08:34.360 --> 1:08:36.600
<v Speaker 1>I like, that's that's a good way coming back in.

1:08:36.960 --> 1:08:39.000
<v Speaker 2>And every time I get triggered by what the hell

1:08:39.120 --> 1:08:42.200
<v Speaker 2>is the city, that weak person or whatever, that's what

1:08:42.280 --> 1:08:44.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm scared of that I am too. So that's what

1:08:44.920 --> 1:08:49.160
<v Speaker 2>also drove us to do amazing things. It's that that

1:08:49.439 --> 1:08:52.400
<v Speaker 2>shame or I don't want to be that and so

1:08:52.600 --> 1:08:55.360
<v Speaker 2>and then I see somebody that I really don't want

1:08:55.360 --> 1:08:57.639
<v Speaker 2>to be or I'm afraid that I maybe I am,

1:08:57.920 --> 1:09:02.559
<v Speaker 2>and speak out against it. So that's when people you

1:09:02.640 --> 1:09:06.400
<v Speaker 2>can't talk about this, you can't say that. I think

1:09:06.439 --> 1:09:09.280
<v Speaker 2>that's probably what you are. If I can make a

1:09:09.360 --> 1:09:13.320
<v Speaker 2>joke about whatever, then it's a joke and we can

1:09:13.360 --> 1:09:16.720
<v Speaker 2>playlight about it. It's a funny one.

1:09:16.840 --> 1:09:19.759
<v Speaker 1>Well, you've touched on a couple of things about society

1:09:19.840 --> 1:09:22.719
<v Speaker 1>be better off if we're this and that. It seems

1:09:22.720 --> 1:09:25.080
<v Speaker 1>to me like the pendulum has swung so far it

1:09:25.160 --> 1:09:29.240
<v Speaker 1>just needs a reset. To accountability and all sorts of

1:09:29.320 --> 1:09:33.679
<v Speaker 1>things and responsibility and referencing him back to a young

1:09:33.720 --> 1:09:38.320
<v Speaker 1>Feller going into the army and having values, instilled sense

1:09:38.320 --> 1:09:42.040
<v Speaker 1>of responsibility and purpose. I think that's crying out for it.

1:09:42.240 --> 1:09:45.160
<v Speaker 2>Well, well, I think what we're seeing is it's a

1:09:45.160 --> 1:09:49.080
<v Speaker 2>lot of the end of empire's criteria symptoms. So you know,

1:09:49.920 --> 1:09:55.120
<v Speaker 2>the neglected military, the descent into hedonism and plenty and entitlement,

1:09:55.720 --> 1:09:58.400
<v Speaker 2>and so we've got people that aren't responsible for their

1:09:59.160 --> 1:10:02.599
<v Speaker 2>lives and don't care about anybody else, and they just take, take, take,

1:10:03.360 --> 1:10:08.080
<v Speaker 2>and that headingism. And we've seen it with the Babylonians,

1:10:08.160 --> 1:10:09.240
<v Speaker 2>the Romans.

1:10:09.520 --> 1:10:14.920
<v Speaker 1>The Greeks dictating where we're at this present time.

1:10:15.400 --> 1:10:17.519
<v Speaker 2>And neglect of the military is a big one because

1:10:17.560 --> 1:10:21.160
<v Speaker 2>then the other armies will just come in over the top.

1:10:21.200 --> 1:10:24.800
<v Speaker 2>And so we see similarities with the Romans, the Barbarians.

1:10:25.200 --> 1:10:27.120
<v Speaker 2>I don't worry about them. We'll just keep going on

1:10:27.160 --> 1:10:30.000
<v Speaker 2>with our orgies and whatever done and the next thing

1:10:30.040 --> 1:10:33.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, the Rome's been sacked. So you know, it's

1:10:33.240 --> 1:10:35.559
<v Speaker 2>like when you're grow on a This is on a

1:10:35.600 --> 1:10:38.840
<v Speaker 2>macro level, but on a micro level, you tell your kids,

1:10:38.920 --> 1:10:41.720
<v Speaker 2>if you don't look after your toys, you won't have them.

1:10:41.760 --> 1:10:43.600
<v Speaker 2>And so if you don't look after the country and

1:10:43.640 --> 1:10:47.800
<v Speaker 2>protect and do and step up and take responsibility, then

1:10:47.880 --> 1:10:51.360
<v Speaker 2>you'll lose it. And I think what we've got now

1:10:51.479 --> 1:10:56.200
<v Speaker 2>is people will just vote for whoever handsome free money

1:10:56.240 --> 1:10:58.840
<v Speaker 2>and it's a short term and nobody wants to tighten

1:10:58.880 --> 1:11:01.960
<v Speaker 2>their belts to look after the future. I'm not saying nobody,

1:11:02.000 --> 1:11:03.240
<v Speaker 2>there's quite a lot that do.

1:11:03.880 --> 1:11:07.360
<v Speaker 1>It's at strange times. I looked at in recent times

1:11:07.400 --> 1:11:09.360
<v Speaker 1>protests in the streets of Sydney and there were so

1:11:09.479 --> 1:11:13.559
<v Speaker 1>many protests groups going around that it was just this

1:11:13.560 --> 1:11:16.600
<v Speaker 1>person's protesting about that, that person's protesting about that, and

1:11:16.640 --> 1:11:20.120
<v Speaker 1>it was just it seem chaotic and shambalie. That's a

1:11:20.200 --> 1:11:24.160
<v Speaker 1>strange times chaos. We might take a break now when

1:11:24.200 --> 1:11:27.439
<v Speaker 1>we get back and thank you for your insight into

1:11:27.760 --> 1:11:30.599
<v Speaker 1>your service saver in Afghanistan and just a little bit

1:11:30.640 --> 1:11:33.200
<v Speaker 1>about yourself and the tips have given me for making

1:11:33.240 --> 1:11:37.600
<v Speaker 1>Spike a bigger and better dog come and possible future employment.

1:11:39.000 --> 1:11:42.599
<v Speaker 1>We want to talk about your post army career. Post

1:11:42.600 --> 1:11:47.360
<v Speaker 1>military career, and you've said that you've suffered from PTSD,

1:11:47.880 --> 1:11:50.519
<v Speaker 1>the type of treatment that you're looking for getting your

1:11:50.800 --> 1:11:54.080
<v Speaker 1>insight into that. Will also talk about the Royal Commission

1:11:54.160 --> 1:11:58.960
<v Speaker 1>into Veteran Suicide and that is only recently played out

1:11:59.000 --> 1:12:03.240
<v Speaker 1>and some of the recommendations. And I'm curious about all

1:12:03.240 --> 1:12:06.960
<v Speaker 1>the other stuff that you've done too, like wildlife working

1:12:07.000 --> 1:12:10.960
<v Speaker 1>over in Africa and poaching anti poaching.

1:12:11.160 --> 1:12:14.920
<v Speaker 2>And it's been quite a rewarding journey that.

1:12:15.160 --> 1:12:17.280
<v Speaker 1>Well, that that that would be fascinating, So a lot,

1:12:17.320 --> 1:12:19.120
<v Speaker 1>a lot to talk about. If we take a break,

1:12:19.520 --> 1:12:21.640
<v Speaker 1>might even take these two idiots for a walk and

1:12:22.439 --> 1:12:24.440
<v Speaker 1>we'll be back soon. Cheers.