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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Eye Catch Killers. Today I

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Speaker 1: sat down with an extraordinary man who has seen and

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Speaker 1: done things in life most of us could not comprehend,

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Speaker 1: let alone understand when we talk of us to the country.

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Speaker 1: Today's guest has my total respect. He served over ten

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Speaker 1: years as an operator and patrol commander in the Special

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Speaker 1: Air Services Regiment of the Australian Army. His service in

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Speaker 1: the SAS Regiment between two thousand and three and twenty

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Speaker 1: fifteen was spent whilst Australia was at war. He and

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Speaker 1: his colleagues were a tip of the spear during the conflict.

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Speaker 1: Anyone involved in fighting a war pays a price in

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Speaker 1: some way. We talk about what it takes to become

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Speaker 1: a member of one of the most elite fighting units

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Speaker 1: in the world, what happens in the war zone, and

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Speaker 1: the price that is paid. It was an honest and

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Speaker 1: emotional conversation and it went into areas I didn't expect.

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Speaker 1: Have a listen. I think it might go a long

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Speaker 1: way to understanding who these men are and what they

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Speaker 1: go through serving their country. Today's guest, who goes by

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Speaker 1: the nickname of Horse, was suggested to me by someone

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Speaker 1: who said I should talk to him, and I'm glad

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Speaker 1: I did. Horse. Welcome to I catch killers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, good to be here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I know how busy you are, so thank

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Speaker 1: you very much for taking the time to come in

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Speaker 1: here and have a chat.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate you making the time and so yeah, we've

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Speaker 2: had a couple of false starts, and yeah the troubles

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Speaker 2: and that good good to be here.

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Speaker 1: Finally, well, how about I clarify why you called the

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Speaker 1: horse at first. Now that's your nickname, and that's what

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Speaker 1: we'll refer you as. But there's a lot of connotations

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Speaker 1: that come with a nickname called horse, so you might

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Speaker 1: set the records straight.

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Speaker 2: I usually lead in that's a rumor I started, But

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Speaker 2: now I grew up with horses and it was horse

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Speaker 2: man and got shortened a horse. Really, so kind of

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Speaker 2: a little bit boring. Yeah, okay, and it's that simple.

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Speaker 2: And then I sort of just took it on and

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Speaker 2: ran with it. Now nobody really knows my real name.

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Speaker 1: How long have people been calling your horse for?

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Speaker 2: Since I was a kid, right sixteen? Really kind of

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Speaker 2: morphed into just horse.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, Well it makes it simple, doesn't it. Now

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Speaker 1: we've also got two other I was going to say people,

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Speaker 1: but they're not people, but two other participants in the

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Speaker 1: podcast today. You've brought your dog, Presston in.

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Speaker 2: Yep, Yeah, he's down here. He made it onto Sky

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Speaker 2: News the other week and he's doing the same thing now,

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Speaker 2: sleeping through it all.

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Speaker 1: Well, I thought i'd bring my mate Spike in, who's

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Speaker 1: down there and Pressing and Spike have met. There's been

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Speaker 1: a little argie bargie, but no blows thrown, so hopefully

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Speaker 1: it stays that way.

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Speaker 2: Nothing too serious is usually well mannered.

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Speaker 1: You have Preston as a companion dog, that's correct, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what's ago with that? So?

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Speaker 2: Well, long story short, I'm certified with PTSD from the

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Speaker 2: military service, and so my lifestyle, as you alluded to,

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Speaker 2: is quite busy, and so to have a dog generally

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Speaker 2: is not really viable. So I got him certified as

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Speaker 2: an assistance animal, and so he can come everywhere with me.

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Speaker 2: And say, it just allows me to travel on the

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Speaker 2: plane with him. I don't have to spend the extra

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Speaker 2: money put him in freight or you know his business.

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Speaker 2: Especially we live on a boat now, and so we

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Speaker 2: can go to national parks and some people say, well,

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Speaker 2: it seem to be quite well adjusted. I don't really

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Speaker 2: know me, and I thought maybe I'm taking a piss

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Speaker 2: here and abusing, But really, when we go out in public,

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Speaker 2: he sorts out the week from the chaff, so to speak,

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Speaker 2: and you find out who you want to talk to

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Speaker 2: pretty quickly, and so who's got manners around animals and

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Speaker 2: so they're the ones. So I actually start to engage

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Speaker 2: with people out in public where I normally wouldn't and

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Speaker 2: so that that's pretty much what he does for me.

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Speaker 2: It's not the classic traumatized and he is nurturing and

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Speaker 2: I'm a little buddy. And because it's just me and him,

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Speaker 2: that's very very important for me. Week life on the

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Speaker 2: boat sounds like fun, but it would be a lot

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Speaker 2: less fun without him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think having something like a dog in

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Speaker 1: your life it gives a degree of stability. As chaotic

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Speaker 1: as your life can be, you've got something that remains

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Speaker 1: the same, some consistency there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's anchoring effects. So you've got you've got to

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Speaker 2: get up, you've got to take him for a walk.

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Speaker 2: And there's so that that responsibility is important. I think

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Speaker 2: without responsibility in your life, you just fritter it away.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I first saw you a couple of months ago.

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Speaker 1: There was a film that was invited along too, called

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Speaker 1: Bravery and Betrayal. It was a documentary about the SAS

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Speaker 1: and the work that the SAS did in Afghanistan, documentary

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Speaker 1: that I found fascinating. Yourself and another person that was

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Speaker 1: featured in the documentary spoke after the film and Simon Heath,

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Speaker 1: the producer of the film, said, Hey, you want to

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Speaker 1: check out what these guys are doing in the power

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Speaker 1: of this documentary. How's that for you? The documentary, Well, we.

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Speaker 2: Started off just thought, well, we've got sick of the

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Speaker 2: narrative and Defense wasn't correcting it. So we thought, well,

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Speaker 2: we'll get our story out there and booked five private

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Speaker 2: cinemas like independent cinemas, and then they sold out. We'll

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Speaker 2: put another screening on and that sold out, and I

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Speaker 2: think we've done sixty five sold out cinemas on the

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Speaker 2: first tour, and Simon Heath, the director, and myself are

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Speaker 2: about to start tour two point zero and say back

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Speaker 2: by popular demand, it's always good. It's been quite surprising

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Speaker 2: and often confronting. As I said, just made this film

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Speaker 2: because we thought, I want to get out side of

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Speaker 2: the story out there because it's not being presented, and

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Speaker 2: it's given us a voice, which has been good. And

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Speaker 2: it's been quite cathartic journey because all the audiences have

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Speaker 2: been very, very supportive of of us and and surprised,

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Speaker 2: so they got they come up in tears and we didn't.

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Speaker 2: We didn't know what you guys went through, what's been

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Speaker 2: done to you. And then there's the one that really

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Speaker 2: put on my mask was a tunnel wrap from Vietnam.

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Speaker 2: He's come up in tears and hugging me, saying thank you.

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Speaker 2: Nobody's nobody ever did this for us, And so it's

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Speaker 2: grown to be a lot, a lot more. And the

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Speaker 2: other thing that's been occurring to me is the family

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Speaker 2: is the sacrifice of the families, and we we'd lost

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Speaker 2: over that, and you know, it's one of the single

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Speaker 2: guys throughout the whole thing. You know, I would, in hindsight,

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Speaker 2: I would go and hang out with the families and

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Speaker 2: live vicariously through that, that tight knit unit, those nuclear families,

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Speaker 2: and and all the bonding that went went with that

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Speaker 2: through the wives while we were away, and so they

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Speaker 2: were extremely important. And obviously we've got interviews with a

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Speaker 2: son who lost his dad, Keegan Locke, his mum Lee

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Speaker 2: Ta did widow, and we've got the McCarthy's who lost

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Speaker 2: a son, and so their sacrifice has been really been highlighted,

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Speaker 2: I think, and hopefully everybody appreciates that, so we do

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Speaker 2: get some thank you for your service. They're the ones

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Speaker 2: that really sacrifice in the family. So there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of things come home. Being driven home to me made

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Speaker 2: me sit up and have a bit of a look

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Speaker 2: at the wider space instead of just what I was

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Speaker 2: doing downrange and getting after it.

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Speaker 1: Well, I've got to say it was powerful and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't surprise me. You say, people in tears after the

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Speaker 1: documentary was shown the aim of the documentary, and I

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Speaker 1: think it really hit the mark. But just when the

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Speaker 1: documentary was made, this was the aim and I just

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Speaker 1: read this out over in Betrayal highlights the courage of

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Speaker 1: Australia and sas soldiers in Afghanistan while exposing what they

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Speaker 1: perceive as a betrayal by politicians, media and senior defense

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Speaker 1: leaders after their service. The film aims to set the

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Speaker 1: records straight, honor the soldier's sacrifice, and advocate for better

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Speaker 1: treatment of veterans. I think if you watch that movie,

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Speaker 1: you're going to go, okay, well that's a fair call.

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Speaker 1: And the narrative that you talk about is this, and

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Speaker 1: it's been hanging around for a long time and probably

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Speaker 1: too long, the allegations of war crimes that seem to

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Speaker 1: have put a stain on all the work that you

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Speaker 1: guys did, and bearing in mind they are any allegations

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Speaker 1: at this stage, did you notice a shift, the change

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Speaker 1: from the perception of the public when these allegations came out.

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Speaker 2: So I've been living overseas for a little bit, so

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Speaker 2: I didn't see a shift in the public when I

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Speaker 2: have been back in Australia. Really the highlight is Ben

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Speaker 2: Roberts Smith. So whenever that comes up and I have

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Speaker 2: interactions with the public and they find out where my background,

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Speaker 2: they're very supportive. Most of the public and this is

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Speaker 2: what we found out with the film as well as

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Speaker 2: general public are supporting us, and so this narrative is

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Speaker 2: just from a very small part of the media and

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Speaker 2: some of the public who they're ideologically predisposed to be

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Speaker 2: against war of warfare, and so generally I hadn't noticed it,

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Speaker 2: but I've felt it because I've seen it and obviously

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Speaker 2: it's close to me. So you do pick up on

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Speaker 2: these things from the media, and so I think it

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Speaker 2: is felt throughout our community. And I've noticed what it's

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Speaker 2: done the guys and the allegations and some of the

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Speaker 2: subpoenas and obviously gag or put on people when they're

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Speaker 2: involved with ongoing investigations, and it's just diminished them and

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Speaker 2: they're sort of sitting there with this sort of damicles

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Speaker 2: over their head. Just waiting in chronic stress just grinds

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Speaker 2: guys down. You've got Tier one operators who are significantly

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Speaker 2: diminished and just shells of their former And I went

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Speaker 2: through some issues as well myself. Well, seeing seeing what

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Speaker 2: it does to your mates really is one of the

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Speaker 2: biggest issues.

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Speaker 1: I think if you've been at the sharp end of

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Speaker 1: the sphere like you guys were in the war that was.

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Speaker 1: I think it's the longest running conflict Australia has been

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Speaker 1: involved in a war zone. So there's enough damage that's done.

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Speaker 1: You don't go the war coming back the same person

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Speaker 1: that there's damage done. And something that really hit home

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Speaker 1: to me that you mentioned, and I can relate to

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Speaker 1: it in part where you said, where these allegations have

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Speaker 1: been made people that had served overseas, mates that they

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Speaker 1: relied upon aren't allowed to talk to each other because

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Speaker 1: of subpoenas and different things and restrictions. That must add

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Speaker 1: exponentially the pressure of not only dealing with coming back

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Speaker 1: from war, but then dealing with the allegations.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean it's a classic interrogation isolation tactic

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Speaker 2: where you put pressure on people and we know what

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Speaker 2: isolation does two people and you've been involved with the

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Speaker 2: Royal Commission into Veteran Suicide and that isolation is a

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Speaker 2: massive impact upon mental health and increase his chance of

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Speaker 2: suicidality for a start. So the authorities know this and

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Speaker 2: they still go and do it to us and isolate

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Speaker 2: We can talk and tay Olie Schultz because his name

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Speaker 2: has been out in the public and he's the only

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Speaker 2: one that's ever been charged, yes, and so yeah, he's

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Speaker 2: been isolated from all of the guys, really.

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Speaker 1: And that adds to adds so much pressure. And if

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Speaker 1: I reference police matters, I always think what you guys

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Speaker 1: have been through is policing, and what you guys have

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Speaker 1: been through is on steroids compared to that. But when

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Speaker 1: I felt foul of the police and allegations were made,

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Speaker 1: I was isolated from the police. I wasn't allowed to

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Speaker 1: talk to any police officer, and anyone that did talk

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Speaker 1: to me was criticized. Some were transferred out of units

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Speaker 1: because they were associated with me. And that isolation does

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Speaker 1: add to the pressure of it. And you're in this

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Speaker 1: world of going, what the fuck's what's going on?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And there's only so long you can put up

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Speaker 2: with that, Yeah, yeah, Yeah, And as you found out firsthand. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: well yeah, they did play those tactics right back on

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Speaker 2: their own people's Yeah, it's crazy.

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Speaker 1: It is crazy. And also when there's allegations that are

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Speaker 1: made that I know with the Police Royal Commission in

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Speaker 1: the police corruption there were things that were uncovered, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: things that needed to be addressed. But I remember a

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Speaker 1: deputy commissioner coming out and saying that after that Royal Commission,

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Speaker 1: I was a detective and I didn't get caught up

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Speaker 1: in the Royal Commission, and I was proud of the

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Speaker 1: work I did, and I was proud of the work

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Speaker 1: that people I was working with the way they conducted themselves.

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Speaker 1: And then you had a deputy commission to come out

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Speaker 1: and say all the techniques are a disgrace and they

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Speaker 1: should be sent back to uniform. That pissed me off,

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Speaker 1: and that pissed me off for about twenty years. I

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Speaker 1: made the point of really pushing the detective barrow and

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Speaker 1: how dare you say that of all detectives?

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Speaker 2: Yeh, it becomes personal. And I think interestingly the CDF

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Speaker 2: Campbell came out and apologized to Afghanistan, for the Afghan people,

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Speaker 2: for all of the injustice or improprieties. I can't remember

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Speaker 2: the exact words, but he apologize for any war crimes

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Speaker 2: that we committed when there's been nothing proven. It's just

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Speaker 2: all allegations are blank and as you alluded to, a

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Speaker 2: blanket cast of allegations or guilt, and so all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden, you're all guilty, presumed guilty until proven innocence,

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Speaker 2: whereas the opposite of what it's supposed to be. And

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Speaker 2: so you guys haven't got due process. Yeah, and neither

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Speaker 2: have we. And it seems to be something with government

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Speaker 2: hierarchies that I'm willing to throw their people under the

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Speaker 2: bus for some sort of personal gain. And I don't

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Speaker 2: know what the motivations are, and I don't understand it either.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about you and your extraordinary career

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Speaker 1: and the things that things that you've done, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's pretty amazing. So just let me roat some

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Speaker 1: of this stuff out. You join the Army in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety three. You're in the SAS from two thousand and

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Speaker 1: three to twenty fifteen. You've provided training and consultation for

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Speaker 1: military law enforcement and African wildlife consultation. Soon you operate

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Speaker 1: domestically and in conjunction with Australian Federal Police and State Police.

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Speaker 1: You've worked in Southeast Asia and the Middle East. You

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Speaker 1: delivered training for K nine units to La County Sheriff's Department,

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Speaker 1: swat LAPD, Swedish Police, Danish Police, European Special Forces and

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Speaker 1: Wildlife Ranger units throughout Africa. That's why I bought Spiking.

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Speaker 1: I want to see if we can get him a job.

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Speaker 1: He's been free lading for too long. Assisted teaching in

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Speaker 1: Sweden to autistic spectrum diagnosed children. You even worked as

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Speaker 1: a movie animal trainer, ensuring dogs were trained for their

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Speaker 1: various roles. That's a job for Spike. Your academic qualifications

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Speaker 1: include Master of Business Administration Advanced to Planner in Public

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Speaker 1: Safety Emergency Management, the Plomer and Work Health and Safety,

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Speaker 1: the Planer of Business Certificate for and Training and Assessment

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Speaker 1: rya Professional day skipper license, and of course you've got

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Speaker 1: your private pilot's license. You can fly a plane as well. Mate.

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Speaker 1: That is a lot to do, and I wanted to

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Speaker 1: put that out because I want people to understand who

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Speaker 1: you are and when we're talking. But that's a hell

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Speaker 1: of a lot of things to have done.

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Speaker 2: That's my adhd I think right, which I do have

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Speaker 2: it clearly, yeah, and slightly on the spectrum. But these

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Speaker 2: things are actual superpowers, and we put it out there

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Speaker 2: in society that these things are terrible to have. But

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Speaker 2: if you allow these people to find find what interests

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Speaker 2: them and go for it, then I guess that's what happens.

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Speaker 1: Channel, channel and direction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think you can probably relate to a

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Speaker 2: lot of that with your people. Call you obsessed with

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Speaker 2: your job, and then that extra links that you'll go to,

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Speaker 2: And that's that's so where it ends up.

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Speaker 1: It quite often separates, it, doesn't it. And when you've

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Speaker 1: got a passion for something, passion with perspective, but the

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Speaker 1: passion for something and you enjoy it and you've got

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Speaker 1: an inquiring mind, that does push it that little bit further,

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Speaker 1: doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's not like I set out to do

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Speaker 2: any of that. It just it just happened. And so

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Speaker 2: allow people to do what what interests them and go

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Speaker 2: with it, maybe enable them and guide them, and obviously

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Speaker 2: you'll follow follow your moral compass and and here we.

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Speaker 1: Are, Well, that's it's interesting too, And maybe it's the

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Speaker 1: way you positive outlook on things like adhd. I hear

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Speaker 1: so many people use that as an excuse and you're saying, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's my superpower. It points me in the direction that

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Speaker 1: drives me. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, there was issues growing up back in the seventies ages.

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Speaker 2: Nobody really knew what this was. And so you're just

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Speaker 2: that kid that's always hanging off the chandeliers.

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Speaker 1: The little shit that's causing problems.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's pretty much what I became and identified

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Speaker 2: as for years. And so you know we're here about

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Speaker 2: coppers and crims not too similar. And I think it

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Speaker 2: could have gone eat a way for me. And I

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Speaker 2: think if I was growing up today with cameras on phones,

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Speaker 2: I don't know if i'd have been even allowed to

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Speaker 2: join the defense force and say that would have pushed

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Speaker 2: me in not so wholesome direction. And so because I

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Speaker 2: grew up always wanted to be a soldier and you're

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Speaker 2: playing with guns, getting that stick out and that's a

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Speaker 2: good stick, and so I always wanted to join the military.

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Speaker 2: You know, without that, I dare say it would have

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Speaker 2: gone the other way. I did end up bouncing for

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Speaker 2: a little while in Melbourne and rubbing shoulders with criminal.

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Speaker 1: Elements to drag you in the world.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, well I did get in a spot of

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Speaker 2: botic side and made he got locked up in perse

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Speaker 2: once I joined the regiment, and friend said, oh, someone

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Speaker 2: so he's in jail ere and go and visit him.

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Speaker 2: So I linked up with a mate of his who's

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Speaker 2: in the Outlaw Motorcycle Gang and went and visited him.

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Speaker 2: And I think when Benji Venaman got knocked, they was

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Speaker 2: looking to do his background and he was visiting this guy,

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Speaker 2: and so who else is visiting him? And there's an

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Speaker 2: essays operator with Outlaw Motorcycle Gang guys. I got called

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Speaker 2: into headquarters and what's going on here? Maybe I'm going

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Speaker 2: to get a medal. I walked in there and I

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Speaker 2: saw their faces. I thought, I got a medal today,

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I was sitting there with a cloud over

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Speaker 2: my head for a year while I had investstigation went on. Fortunately, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I did bring that on myself to associating with damage.

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Speaker 2: So there's always that tendency there, and yeah, it could

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Speaker 2: have gone either way. And even when I was in

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Speaker 2: the regiments, I see still but I just decided, well,

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Speaker 2: this is what I want to go. So I cut

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Speaker 2: all those ties.

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Speaker 1: Your childhood where did you Where did you grow.

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Speaker 2: Up central Victoria? Yep, in the twenty acre farm about

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Speaker 2: an hour north of Melbourne. So it's a geographical center

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Speaker 2: of Victoria. Riding horses and playing with a dog, and

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Speaker 2: so because of that, adhd a little bit of spectrum stuff.

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Speaker 2: I was just always in trouble, so I would gravitate

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Speaker 2: out onto the outside and hang out with dogs and horses,

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Speaker 2: and so that's where I'm affinity for animals and that

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Speaker 2: connection came from. And lo and behold thirty years later

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Speaker 2: on heading up the dog capability at the regiment. So

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Speaker 2: that that was really the serendill An interesting early days

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Speaker 2: and carried all all the way through and the military space.

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Speaker 2: The grandfather Blue Reata, they wrote a book about him.

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Speaker 2: He's got the Military Cross and a military medal from

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Speaker 2: World War Two. So bit of a legend there, and

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Speaker 2: he was quite a mentor to me. So that was

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Speaker 2: your grandfather grandfather mom's side. Okay, he always said all

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Speaker 2: of their firstborn were a little bit crazy, and so

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Speaker 2: that was he's telling me about my mum when I

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Speaker 2: was ten, and so I think it's been passed on

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Speaker 2: through his genes. When you came back from the war,

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Speaker 2: got passed on, but I think you felt a little

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Speaker 2: bit responsible for that, so did you.

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Speaker 1: I'm just wondering the dynamics with your mum growing up

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Speaker 1: with a dad that was a fighting soldier, did she

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Speaker 1: have concerns about you following down that path.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Mom and dad did because.

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Speaker 1: They were assumed the impact it had on your grandfather.

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Speaker 2: I would the magine, Well, I don't know if they

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Speaker 2: people understood that. When you're growing up with it, you

387
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Speaker 2: just say, God, that's that's dad, and you know, but

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Speaker 2: then they've been brought up by people who have been

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Speaker 2: through World War Two, so you know there's got to

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Speaker 2: be an impact there and whether they recognized it or not.

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Speaker 2: But then I think the big factor was Vietnam. You

392
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Speaker 2: know what they saw going on in Vietnam because it

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Speaker 2: was their generation.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: Dad had hemophilia, so blood clotting problem, so he got

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Speaker 2: called up. I said, no, you can't, can't come. That's

397
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Speaker 2: going to be an issue down range. So he never went.

398
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Speaker 2: But they saw what friends didud to friends and what

399
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Speaker 2: went on during the Vietnam War and how they were

400
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Speaker 2: treated when they came back too, and so you know

401
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Speaker 2: you don't want that for your kid. All I ever

402
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Speaker 2: wanted to do was join the military, and they tried

403
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Speaker 2: to steer me into university, and I was just a

404
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 2: disruptive influence in class, although I didn't enjoy school at all,

405
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Speaker 2: and and even I went back to UNI a couple

406
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Speaker 2: of years ago on a military scholarship, and I was

407
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Speaker 2: still a disruptive influence. Nothing's changed.

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Speaker 1: How old were you when you joined the army?

409
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Speaker 2: Twenty one? Okay, So I got put off a little

410
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Speaker 2: bit by their steering me into UNI, But in hindsight,

411
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Speaker 2: it was just always going to happen.

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Speaker 1: And basic training, once you're in there, did it fit

413
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Speaker 1: like a glob for you? You felt this is where

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Speaker 1: I belong.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, recruit training, they get you in there and strip

416
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Speaker 2: you of all yourself and break you down and build

417
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Speaker 2: you up. I was a little bit resistant to that.

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Speaker 2: So the first few weeks, first eight weeks in a

419
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Speaker 2: spot of bother here and there and not getting good reports.

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Speaker 2: But by the end I'd attain the standard they wanted

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Speaker 2: and went on and then we went to infantry training

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Speaker 2: and that's it. Thoroughly enjoyed that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. My son did the gap year in the army,

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Speaker 1: so just after he left school and the gap year

425
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Speaker 1: is sign up for twelve months, can't it deployed overseas,

426
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Speaker 1: But the Army's got them for twelve months, and I

427
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Speaker 1: think the trade off is the guys and girls signing

428
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Speaker 1: up for that get a good wage and enjoy the

429
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Speaker 1: army life. Then they leave or the army thinks will

430
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Speaker 1: convert them if we keep them there long enough. But

431
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Speaker 1: I remember the change of my son going down to

432
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Speaker 1: I put it down to the best twelve months parenting

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Speaker 1: I ever did, because I saw the change in him.

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00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 1: He went down there and he went to UNI after

435
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: that year. But if he went to UNI at that

436
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 1: stage he wore a stuffed up like I don't think

437
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 1: he was ready for it. He went to the Army,

438
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 1: as you said, break him down, come out, and he

439
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 1: went from Kapuka then the infantry came out a completely

440
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 1: different person.

441
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it changes you look, it does, and it built

442
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 2: me up to achieve anyone of my looks or intellect

443
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 2: should not expect to be able to achieve. Yeah, it's great.

444
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 2: And I got friends here in Europe who Sweden, they

445
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 2: used to have the National service and we didn't like

446
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 2: doing it at first, but then two years they came

447
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 2: out and they said, in hindsight, it's the best thing

448
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 2: they ever did that set them up for life and

449
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 2: gave him those structure and discipline and values that the

450
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 2: military does. Shove down your throat the hierarchy. Don't emulate

451
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 2: that always. What that gives you is just amazing, I think,

452
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 2: and I fully support anybody going into the military, even

453
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 2: if you just do your four years, it gives you

454
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 2: life skills.

455
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: Well in this day and age, and you know, lots

456
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 1: of people have lost their way for a variety of reasons.

457
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: And I just saw the impact it had on the

458
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,479
Speaker 1: some and I thought it was the best thing for him.

459
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 1: And he's kept that discipline all the way through. And yeah,

460
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 1: change the person. He isn't a different outlook.

461
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 2: On life to good on him. That's pretty cool.

462
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: Okay, so you've done, you went in, you.

463
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 2: Go to a recruiting for defense.

464
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, well when I went, when I went down there,

465
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: and I was enjoyed. Actually it was funny because one

466
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: of the my son had trained with the father. It

467
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: was a father and son team that basically came in

468
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: and he said that would you And I've always wanted

469
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 1: to join the army. Maybe it was too late, but

470
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,360
Speaker 1: Jake was went through basic training with the father, then

471
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: serve with the son or something something something weird, but

472
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,479
Speaker 1: yeah with it it changed. But after you've done your

473
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: basic training, you you went to infantry. What where were

474
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: you attached to it?

475
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 2: I wanted to go to Parachute Britain, so it's three

476
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: rur back in the time day, just down down in Holsworth.

477
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 2: So I spent a couple of years there and then

478
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 2: dadok crooked. So I went down to Melbourne to to

479
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 2: Commando Company second Commander and came off a motorbike there

480
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 2: and broke the pelvis. So I thought that that hurts, Yeah,

481
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 2: because I wanted to go to the ESA. Yes and yeah,

482
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 2: then broken pelvis. They said, well you're not going to

483
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 2: run ever again, You'll be lucky to walk, so well

484
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 2: we proved them wrong. Yeah, so that put things back

485
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 2: a little bit. And then Team More came up and

486
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 2: I was starting to get fit again, and so I

487
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 2: went off with two Commando Team More in two thousand

488
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 2: and one. Then came back from that and I was

489
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 2: also wrestling and I tried out for the Australian team.

490
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:37,679
Speaker 2: Conwell's yeah, look I didn't make team was probably just

491
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 2: as well. Because the standard of wrestling in Australia's a

492
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 2: bit lower than overseas.

493
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: If all the ones with just the beards and the mustache,

494
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, the scary ones.

495
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, Eastern Bloc guys.

496
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you don't want to wrestle.

497
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,479
Speaker 2: No, So I was fortunate make the team and then

498
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 2: that was two thousand and two. Then I did selection

499
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 2: do three.

500
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 1: Okay, your deployment in Team More, that was the first

501
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: time we've been deployed in en mass like that the

502
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: military in Team More. Tell us about that experience from

503
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: I should clarify from Vietnam, it's been a bit of

504
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: a quiet time.

505
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 2: I think we had a wander in there as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

506
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 2: that was an interesting one, and so I think we

507
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 2: were still doing Vietnam joels and it was just a

508
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 2: different war. So learning where you can and can't go

509
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 2: on what to do was interesting and it was largely

510
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,959
Speaker 2: a peacekeeping There were a few contacts here and there.

511
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 2: It was kind of settled down by two thousand and one.

512
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: You've been in the army since ninety three, training, practicing,

513
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: getting ready that deployment was that something you look forward to, Yeah,

514
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: actually put in in the practice. What you've been training for.

515
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and so even though what's happened to us from Afghanistan,

516
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 2: I'm glad and I feel myself consider myself lest that

517
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 2: I got the opportunity to go down range on operations

518
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 2: serve the country. But you get to scratch that itch

519
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 2: to I can't imagine what it would have been like

520
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 2: for the guys carrying that tort through the late seventies

521
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 2: into the eighties that never got to go anywhere.

522
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and when people say that it's misconstrued that you're

523
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: warmonger you want to go the war, I don't look

524
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: at it that way. Perhaps you could shed some light

525
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: on it. But you're trained for something. This is the

526
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: role that you've signed up for, and when you get

527
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: it's like, on a lesser scale being a football player

528
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: and not getting to play a game, training, training, and

529
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: never get out on the field. So I can understand

530
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: the desire to actually put all your training into practice.

531
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe you join up to go and serve

532
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 2: the country and do these things. And it's a little

533
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 2: bit of a boy's own adventure too, So young men

534
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 2: going and testing themselves in DNA, and so it's not

535
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 2: like you're a warmonger. In fact, you went over there

536
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 2: to do good, to protect people while serving the country.

537
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 2: So it's kind of an honorable cause you're going over

538
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 2: there to do the thinking. People say, oh, how many

539
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 2: people would you kill the billet? Yeah, okay, there is

540
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 2: a number, but I think it's more important. There's a

541
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 2: large number also the people that I could have killed

542
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 2: and justified but didn't. And so we're there to rise

543
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 2: above the chaos and the psychopaths that are out there.

544
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 2: Because once again people say, oh, you're getting accused of

545
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: war crimes. It's war you go over there and do anything.

546
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 2: Well that that's not true. You know, we're over there

547
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 2: and taking a higher moral ground. You know, as you

548
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 2: would have experienced with the coppers. You're out there to

549
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 2: do a job and provide a bit of stability because

550
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 2: some of the people you're dealing with, you you would

551
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 2: spit on them and you want to put a bullet

552
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 2: in the head, but you don't. And there would have

553
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: been times, no doubt for you and so for me,

554
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 2: that you could have done it and got away with it.

555
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: That's that's not what we're there for, because then you

556
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 2: know it's Nietzsche's abyss. You know, or those that deal

557
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 2: with monsters be where are becoming a monster? And so

558
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 2: that's that's what my answer is to that one.

559
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I get what you're saying, and I can relate

560
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: that I did some jobs in policing and it was

561
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: about the restraint that you showed. And quite often I

562
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: have people, you know, you locked up this person, what

563
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: did you do? Did you bash them or whatever? That's

564
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: not what it's about, like you're lowered to their standard.

565
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: If you drop down to their.

566
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:42,959
Speaker 2: Stands, Yeah, you become part of the problem.

567
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

568
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 2: And then and then this is where we end up

569
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 2: with royal commissions. Yeah, yeah, because that stuff it always

570
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 2: comes out.

571
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: You mentioned moral compass, and I've always said that because

572
00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: I was in organized crime major crime investigation before the

573
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: Royal Commission, so as in the thick of it where

574
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: things were going, and the moral compass is so important

575
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 1: to hang on to your moral compass, and it can

576
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: slide you don't keep it, keep it in check. So

577
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: that's an important thing to hang on to, isn't it.

578
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it is difficult, absolutely, And so when you

579
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 2: look at what the government asked of us, you're going

580
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 2: back to the same area doing the same job. You're

581
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 2: coming back and the purpose you've locked up, the terrorists

582
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 2: we locked up have been released. You're taking some losses

583
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: and going and doing a job we believe we did

584
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 2: a really good job, and not having much of an

585
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 2: outcome or effect. Essentially what the conditions the government putting

586
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 2: us through or we were going under. Maybe not the government,

587
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:52,959
Speaker 2: they were asking defense for an outcome. So military hierarchy,

588
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: and there's Burnsy in the movie in the documentary said

589
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 2: we won every battle, and so we gave the hierarchy

590
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: every chance is to succeed. But here we are. So

591
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 2: essentially those conditions are very very similar to what the

592
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 2: hunter kill missions in Vietnam were. And you've got these

593
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 2: soldiers going through taking hits, going over the same area,

594
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 2: doing the same job, not having an enduring effect while

595
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 2: taking losses, and so you end up with the Malee massacre. Now,

596
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 2: I don't know if everyone's form me with.

597
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: That familiar with the US troops and the village inn.

598
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 2: And so you're taking those hits and then all of

599
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 2: a sudden, a good idea, the psychopath in the troop

600
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 2: I says, let's do the village. And this is where

601
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 2: good leadership comes in and no, we're not going to

602
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 2: do the village. And so I think the conditions we

603
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 2: were put under and the fact that we didn't do

604
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 2: that is testament, which then when you come back and

605
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 2: get accused of doing that, is it hurts.

606
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does. We'll talk in more detail later on

607
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: in the podcast about the leadership and their reaction. But leadership,

608
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think leadership is lacking in so

609
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: many different areas. And I can relate with police. Hard job.

610
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: If it go out and do it, do all the

611
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: hard work. If it's a success, you have all these

612
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,240
Speaker 1: people standing beside you. If there's a hint of problems,

613
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: everyone distanced themselves and I got sick of that. I

614
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: saw it in the police and again i'd reference at

615
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: a lesser scale than what you guys were facing. And

616
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: the other thing in the service in Afghanistan. In the

617
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: few people who I've met that were in the SAS,

618
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 1: I was surprised by the amount of deployments. And it

619
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 1: was only having a one on one conversation where it

620
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: really dawned on me how often new blokes were put

621
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:51,479
Speaker 1: down range. Yeah.

622
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 2: Look, I've only just been able to admit in the

623
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 2: last couple of years that maybe I did go a

624
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 2: few too many times. So a in case where in

625
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 2: two thousand and seven we were hunting Ronaldo and Team

626
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 2: Or after he killed all those coppers and the soldiers,

627
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 2: and so I went with one squadron to Team Or.

628
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 2: That was January through to April and came back from there.

629
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:20,240
Speaker 2: I was up with a dog as a dog Hewler,

630
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 2: and then I was seconded to three squadron and we

631
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 2: went three weeks later we went off to Afghanistan a decompressor. No, well,

632
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 2: I was very happy to do that at the time too,

633
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 2: so you know, I think maybe the high rocky, we

634
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 2: need to protect us from ourselves sometimes. And then two

635
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 2: squadron came over to Afghanistan to replace three squadron, but

636
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 2: they didn't have a dog Hawnler, so I stayed on.

637
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 2: So I think I was in Australia for maybe four

638
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 2: weeks that year, but I deployed bit all three squadrons,

639
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 2: so I'm pretty proud of that too. And then from

640
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 2: there I just kept rotating in twenty seven, eight eleven, nine,

641
00:35:59,360 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 2: eleven twelve.

642
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, we talked about that the other day, and I

643
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 1: use the analogy and I think it's apped for it.

644
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 1: Then that you're a soldier. If there's something happening, you'll

645
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 1: put your hand up for it. That's the in the

646
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 1: nature of the makeup of you. Someone above you needs

647
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 1: to look and go hold it. We do need this

648
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: bloat to rest, We do need this bloat to just

649
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 1: step back, clear his head before we deploy him again.

650
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: But you're not never going to do that. That's that's

651
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: the people above. And I think we use the analogy

652
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: of a trainer in the fighter's corner. Do you want

653
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 1: to still go out? The fighter is always going to

654
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: say yes, it's up for the trainer. They say, nay,

655
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 1: you've had nothing to throw the.

656
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 2: Towel in for him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, and

657
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 2: the fighter will get angry. And if they'd have told

658
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 2: me that back in the day, I would have been

659
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,439
Speaker 2: pissed off too. Yeah, only toys out of the COT

660
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 2: I understand.

661
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: Okay, let's let's wind it back a little bit. The

662
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: selection course for the sas what. Yeah, it's notoriously hard.

663
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: The success rate miniscule compared to the amount of people

664
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: that try out. And I should point out the people

665
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: that try out for the selection course rate themselves to

666
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 1: start with, It's not just Joe average. It's people that

667
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: have been or should be training for it, pre pairing

668
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: for it, and think they've got the attributes for it.

669
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 1: What was it about you that thought I can do this?

670
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 2: I don't know, It's just it was something that I'd

671
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,879
Speaker 2: always wanted to do from a little kid. So now

672
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 2: I've spoken about my grandfather earlier. You know, he was

673
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: commissioned in Egypt or some Middle East and came back

674
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 2: to Australia and was sent off with the militia the

675
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: reserves to Boganville where he wanted to join the Independent

676
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 2: Company so Special Forces and some of his mates did,

677
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 2: but they said no, we need experienced officers. And so

678
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 2: that was always something that was interesting me. So you

679
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:55,879
Speaker 2: want to serve at the highest level that you can,

680
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 2: and the ESAs was always it. So I grew up

681
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 2: says magazines and books and military history, so it was

682
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 2: always a goal. And so it was that was really

683
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 2: my why, and so it was never like I'm a

684
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 2: bit worried about this or I'm not going to do it.

685
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 2: So it never really entered my mind. And this is

686
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 2: where I'd say to people, I want to do selections

687
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 2: and go, well, what's your why it's And it's a

688
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 2: really interesting question. Well why it's a job. You can

689
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: do any job for money, you really need to have

690
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 2: it deep, deep, trenched entrenched in you. And so I

691
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 2: went over there and said I'm here, I'm going to

692
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 2: do this and going to and they take me or

693
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 2: they don't. And I've done everything that I can beforehand

694
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,399
Speaker 2: to prep before it. And if in fact, you get

695
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 2: this withdraw own request form and they give that to you,

696
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 2: and I chucked it out. I'm here for three weeks.

697
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 2: Whatever you need to do, you want me to do,

698
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 2: and if you want to get rid of me, yeah,

699
00:38:58,360 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 2: so be.

700
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 1: It as a statement of it, then your back pocket,

701
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: get rid of it.

702
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 2: The mindset, I think I can't remember. Was it burnt

703
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 2: all these ships?

704
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 1: Oh yeah yeah, ancient history.

705
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 2: Ancient history burned all the ships. So it gets the

706
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 2: soldiers to fight.

707
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 1: We've got nowhere to go now. Yeah, it's a good mentality.

708
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: The perception is it's very physical, which it is, and

709
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,439
Speaker 1: you have to have mental toughness, but there's a lot

710
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: more that goes into it. There's a psychological component. I

711
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: would imagine that going through that three week selection course.

712
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, so look, I think anybody can finish selection. Where

713
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 2: do you get picked up or not is a different

714
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 2: kettle of fish. And soy a lot of the guys

715
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 2: computer skills trainability. So you know, you get a whole

716
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 2: lot of lessons in the first few days that you're

717
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 2: there without much sleep. Then you're expected to recall those

718
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 2: skills at different points throughout the course and replicate, like

719
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 2: display those skills and you know you've just had a

720
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 2: forty minute lesson on something, then replicate it over and

721
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,720
Speaker 2: over again with no sleep and food. And I remember

722
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 2: setting up a Pulley system that we'd been taught early

723
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 2: earlier in the course, and this is later in the course.

724
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: We've had no sleep for a few days and no food,

725
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 2: set it up, pulling a vehicle along, and then you've

726
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,879
Speaker 2: got to reset and reset it again, and then went

727
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 2: to do it the third time and I've forgotten how

728
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 2: to do it. So the sleep deprivation and every it

729
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 2: just has that effect on it. So being able to

730
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 2: replicate those skills to a certain extent is really important

731
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 2: and tough too, because you know what what lack of

732
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 2: sleep does to.

733
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 1: You, just well under that, under that pressure and lack

734
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: of sleep. It strips you down to its roorus, isn't it.

735
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:49,919
Speaker 1: And that's where the character of a person would come out,

736
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: and the skill set and everything that you need.

737
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's that's where you're truly exposed. And you

738
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 2: have people that really just wanted to do it because

739
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 2: they thought that it was a good idea or make

740
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 2: somebody else proud, but it's not really something they wanted

741
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 2: to do. And then they start going, oh, look, I

742
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 2: don't want to do this anymore my family. You didn't

743
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 2: think about that before, but these sort of things start

744
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 2: to come up. And then once you get exposed, where

745
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 2: do you recognize it yourself that you don't belong there?

746
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 2: The staff recognized for you belong there or not pretty quickly.

747
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: And you've made an interesting point. But I see where

748
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 1: you're coming from in that what do you want to

749
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 1: do it?

750
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 2: Now?

751
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 1: I imagine how cool I'm in the SAS that people would

752
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 1: be driven by that, what do you want to do

753
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 1: or want to be in the sas? But without really

754
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,359
Speaker 1: thinking about it, but your mentality if I'm understanding that

755
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: here is you were going to be in the SAS.

756
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: This is what I've always wanted to do and failure

757
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:45,800
Speaker 1: was not an option for you.

758
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 2: No, No, I had done a clearance diver selection and pasted.

759
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 2: Previously I had to transfer into the Navy, but that's

760
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 2: because so Command had lost my application for SAS and gone,

761
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:00,080
Speaker 2: stuff is I'm going to go and do this? And

762
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 2: then they found it and said, oh, you're on pre

763
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:04,919
Speaker 2: selection in a few weeks, and then selections a couple

764
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 2: weeks after that. Right, be Fortunately I was pretty fit.

765
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: Okay, you got through selection, but that's not the end

766
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: of you can't rest on your laurels. Then a lot

767
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:16,240
Speaker 1: of the training starts at that point.

768
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 2: No, so then you've got an eighteen months hotline to

769
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 2: go through.

770
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: Quite I've been told to ignore you. I'm going to

771
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: put it in practice. He breaks me down.

772
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 2: Okay, oh yeah, that's a superpower. Where was I?

773
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 1: Yeah?

774
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 2: So the selection course and then then it's about an

775
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 2: eighteen month pipeline two before you get into the squadron.

776
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 2: And so you've got all these different skill sets. So

777
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 2: some are physical and then you've got mental ones. So

778
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 2: I did medical, other guys to comp coms and driving, shooting, patrolling,

779
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 2: counter terrorist studio, urban ops, yeah, CQB. And so at

780
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 2: any point you can fail one of those and you

781
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 2: might get invited back the next year, but it sort

782
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 2: of sets you back till the next year, so it's constant.

783
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:14,280
Speaker 2: And so maintaining that focus and that the fitness without

784
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 2: getting injured, and then assimilating those lessons and presenting the

785
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 2: instructors with those skill sets to the required standard is

786
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 2: it was the best couple of years of your life too,

787
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 2: because you've got that one group of guys that you're

788
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 2: always with and so it's quite a bonding experience. And

789
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 2: so these friendships are forged under under under pressure.

790
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 1: When you went for selection and got in the sas too,

791
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 1: we were at war, so it was fairly clear where

792
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: you would be going and where you would be deployed.

793
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: That wasn't a case of okay, I'm going to practice

794
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: and train and train, You're going to be deployed. Did

795
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 1: that cross your mind? And you weighed all that.

796
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 2: Up, couldn't wait, couldn't wait to get there? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah,

797
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 2: Now maybe that's not such a smart thing, but I

798
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 2: wish for I do understand, yeah, and so yeah, you

799
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 2: just want to get out there and put that I've

800
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 2: done the training and I want to get after it.

801
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 1: So how many times were you deployed in Afghanistan?

802
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:18,800
Speaker 2: Six or seven?

803
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: With the essays, Yeah, and towards the latter part, you're

804
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 1: as a commander patrol commanders.

805
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 2: Too, I see. And then then kind of after I

806
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 2: got promoted after our last rotation to patrol commander set right, Unfortunately,

807
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 2: then I had surgery and I got two new hips, right,

808
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 2: and that kind.

809
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,840
Speaker 1: Of you've moved around all right for two new hips.

810
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, well they're the best joints in my body.

811
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,919
Speaker 1: Upgraded, yep, graded, Okay, your first deployment, and I look,

812
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 1: we're talking light about this, but I think something that

813
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 1: came across in the documentary Bravery and Betrayal was the

814
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: work that you're doing, Like it wasn't you weren't going

815
00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 1: over there and something might happen. You were going look

816
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 1: looking for something to happen. That was the nature of

817
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 1: your duties over there.

818
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we were hunting people essentially, So you

819
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 2: don't go out there to avoid trouble, I guess. And

820
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 2: at the start, you go outside the gate and you

821
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 2: get into a gunfight, and then you have to go

822
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 2: further to get a gunfight. So we were having a

823
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 2: stabilizing effect which then enabled the regular forces to come

824
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 2: in and start doing that mentoring and reconstructing. At the

825
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 2: early days, we were doing a lot of reconnaissance with

826
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 2: the vehicles and driving all around all over the countryside

827
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 2: getting some situational awareness. And then as the bubble expanded

828
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,240
Speaker 2: of stability I guess you call it around Taran count,

829
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 2: that sort of evolved into the kill capture missions where

830
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 2: we were targeting hierarchy, and the American helicopters really really

831
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 2: helped us with that. When we didn't have them. We

832
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 2: drive out and you know, park up and then walk

833
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 2: to ten kilometers to the target, so we're sort of

834
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 2: offset and then walk in.

835
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: So and that was again played out in the documentary.

836
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,879
Speaker 1: But initially you had vehicles that you had to get

837
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 1: to your locations, and then you got the American helicopters

838
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 1: dropping you in closer.

839
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 2: And so, as I said before, I was lucky that

840
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 2: I was there for so many rotations early days because

841
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 2: I got the CD the spike in in the IED.

842
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 2: So they're changing tactics body enemy. They went from well

843
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 2: we're getting our asses kicked in gunfights, so let's start

844
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 2: laying IEDs. And so I was riding around on a

845
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 2: six yel motorbike with a dog box on the back.

846
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 2: So I was very cognizant of that that rise in

847
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 2: the threat, and so I found I rode around the

848
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 2: IEDs instead of over them. Basically your homemade explosive. So

849
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 2: they get ammonium nitrate and some fuel oil and then

850
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 2: they'll make up that goes high order explodes. They'll have

851
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 2: an initiating charge within that, and so that'll be buried

852
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 2: under the ground with a pressure plate that as you

853
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 2: drive over it, it'll make the contact with the batteries

854
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,800
Speaker 2: and set the charge off. But I was in nine

855
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 2: vehicle packets that had to hit i EDS. I got

856
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 2: to see where they were put and start to understand it.

857
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 2: And that's played out the next year when I was

858
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,280
Speaker 2: in the vehicle in front of Sean McCarthy. But I

859
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 2: drove around that spot right. Unfortunately they didn't see where

860
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,320
Speaker 2: we went and then hit that I ed it.

861
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 1: It is the nature of war where there would be

862
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: a psychological impact with the EDS. I would imagine every

863
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 1: Yeah you're driving and a gun battle, you see it coming,

864
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 1: you know, but there's never downtime. Yeah, you're always at

865
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:54,320
Speaker 1: that hyper alert.

866
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, every bump you hit or you don't quite have

867
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 2: the clearance and your scrape over something and everyone just

868
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 2: and then you laugh at each other and continue on.

869
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I reckon the question, and I'm asking this, and

870
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people would ask the same.

871
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,399
Speaker 1: Your first contact when you're downrange and bullets are coming

872
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: back at you, and that did you know how you're

873
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 1: going to react? Or do you wonder how you get react?

874
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 1: Because I hear a lot of people talk about I

875
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 1: wonder how I'll react in that situation.

876
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 2: Yes, I was quite overwhelming. Yeah, you don't kind of

877
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 2: think about that, and then it happens. I guess you

878
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 2: do wonder about it. Yeah, you're scared, but it's what

879
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 2: you do when you're scared, and so that that training

880
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 2: sort of kicks in and then you get it after it.

881
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 2: And so this is where in the teams it's not

882
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 2: about you, it's about the guys to the left and

883
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:49,760
Speaker 2: the right of and so you get over that initial

884
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 2: fear for yourself and then you step up and do

885
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 2: it for the guys around you, which then when you

886
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 2: get out of the military, that does become a bit

887
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:59,320
Speaker 2: of a problem because you're not doing those things.

888
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,759
Speaker 1: I would imagine to that your first gun battle, there's

889
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 1: a lot of adrenaline running. Yeah, next one not that

890
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: as much, and you get conditioned to it, desensitized to it.

891
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think. I think, so you learned to zig

892
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 2: and zag when you're supposed to as opposed to Yeah,

893
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,359
Speaker 2: the first one, what the hell's going on here? And

894
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 2: you too, audles, Yeah, sitting where's that coming from?

895
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 1: All?

896
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 2: What's going on? And then you know, fast forward to

897
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 2: twenty twelve where I remember I was in a close

898
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 2: contact with the guy and he had to be dead

899
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 2: the rights except I did the old neo from the

900
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 2: matrix and just jump back to and the bullets just

901
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 2: went stray through. But I remember everything just slowed down

902
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:48,320
Speaker 2: and I was kind of ended this flow state, and

903
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 2: so that that was where you end up being in

904
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 2: contact as opposed to in the first one, it's just

905
00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:57,879
Speaker 2: headless chuck.

906
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. Can we talk deployments? How long? If it's not

907
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: giving away any classified stuff, but how long would you

908
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: be deployed?

909
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 2: It's deployment, Yeah, four four to six months. Obviously there's

910
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 2: back to back once in two thousand and seven for me,

911
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 2: so a bit longer. Yeah, So about four four months

912
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 2: mark you start to get a little bit weary, right,

913
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 2: So that was perfect. But then you've got Americans going

914
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 2: away for twelve months, and you've got Ambertaians are out

915
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 2: there for six six months, and so it's you get

916
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 2: to that four months mark. And I remember even we

917
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,240
Speaker 2: did the six months in team or after four months,

918
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 2: you start to get a little bit jaded and vary

919
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 2: and so losing that edge and.

920
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:48,279
Speaker 1: When mistakes are made. Get to that point and in

921
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 1: that deployment the average deployment and I know the nature

922
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 1: of the war changed over the years, but you were

923
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:57,280
Speaker 1: out and about. That wasn't sitting around for four months.

924
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 1: And you get one outside the gates. You're going out

925
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 1: all the.

926
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 2: Time, no, yeah, constantly hunting. Yeah, And so as you

927
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 2: come back de service reservice and then start getting ready

928
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 2: for the next job. And even the kill capture ones

929
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 2: where time sensitive where we'd find out where they were

930
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 2: and wheels up and off you go. You come back

931
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,839
Speaker 2: and then we rebomb and get ready for the next

932
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:26,240
Speaker 2: job where it was that afternoon the next day wherever

933
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:27,320
Speaker 2: we'll find a target.

934
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're out and about and that's I think

935
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,919
Speaker 1: that's why I would encourage people to have a look

936
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 1: at this film, because I think there's a misconception of

937
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: what happens over there and they see going to wall.

938
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 1: But you guys were at it the whole.

939
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 2: Time, even early days two thousand and seven, I was

940
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 2: actually kicked off to the Commandos because OC said I

941
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 2: don't have any use for dogs, and I went to

942
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 2: the Commandos, which that company that was there at the

943
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,399
Speaker 2: time was my old peer group from when I went

944
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 2: to Team or with them, and so they were all

945
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 2: now next level up. And so a big shout out

946
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 2: to those guys for taking me on and helping develop

947
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 2: the capabilit Because that was still early days, and because

948
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 2: I was the only dog handler. We were out in

949
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:17,799
Speaker 2: the desert for a few weeks maneuvering around, and each

950
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 2: each night we would do a hit and so and

951
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,839
Speaker 2: then sometimes it'd be one during the day. So one

952
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 2: platoon would go out down and do the job while

953
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 2: the other stayed in overwatch. But I would flip flop

954
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 2: between platoons and so me, my dog did done I

955
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 2: think sixteen hits in fourteen days.

956
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 1: Wow.

957
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, really after that.

958
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, it has to has to take it. Stop with

959
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 1: the dogs. Tell me how they're used in that type

960
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 1: of environment.

961
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 2: So in the early age, we didn't really know what

962
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:51,839
Speaker 2: we were doing because we went and did an Air

963
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 2: Force dog handler course and so came back, how do

964
00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 2: we use it in special Forces? And so played around

965
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 2: with it. Eventually, as the capability matured, we would use

966
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 2: them out in front of the teams as an early

967
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,320
Speaker 2: warning when we're moving through a complex terrain.

968
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:15,240
Speaker 1: So to give an example of people that don't understand,

969
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 1: you're out with how many in the unit and just

970
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 1: roughly of us and you've got the dog out front.

971
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, so in vegetation, so we can't see through it,

972
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:33,360
Speaker 2: but their senses can hear and smell, detect, detect the

973
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 2: enemy or any explosives that may be out there. So

974
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 2: they'll give a change in behavior on that.

975
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 1: And when you're working with the dog, you pick up

976
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 1: on that change of behavior. It might be the years

977
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 1: prick up or whatever.

978
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 2: Yes, they'll give a definite change in behavior. I'll duck

979
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 2: off casing something. And actually guys, other guys, as we

980
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 2: got used to working with the teams, they would be

981
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 2: able to go, I think her dog's onto something here.

982
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 2: So everybody started to really get into that space with

983
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 2: the animals as we got more for me and started

984
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 2: to know what we were doing too, and that that

985
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 2: early warning out front saved my life, saved many other lives,

986
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:18,280
Speaker 2: like I couldn't tell you how many, And the amount

987
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 2: of explosives they found or munitions out on the Battle

988
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 2: of Space, not necessarily IED's were after that was more

989
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:29,840
Speaker 2: the explosive detection dogs because it's only limited number hours

990
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 2: the training can do in one day, and so just

991
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 2: having dual purpose dogs was quite quite a lot of training.

992
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 2: So we would find weapons cases around the place.

993
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 1: And how the dogs when the bullets start flying and

994
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 1: the chaos of a gun battle.

995
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're quite excitable. They didn't worry about and so

996
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:52,320
Speaker 2: my boy, he would get very excited. He wanted to

997
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 2: get after it. So sometimes we'd be punching on in

998
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,359
Speaker 2: the middle of a gunfight. I'm dealing with the dog

999
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 2: and trying to return fire. It's like, now, okay, yeah

1000
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 2: I'm not the only one. So yeah, people would be

1001
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 2: looking at the dog hand of fighting with these dogs,

1002
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 2: what the hell are you do it? Yeah, they didn't

1003
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 2: have a problem, and they actually raised up in tempo

1004
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:20,440
Speaker 2: because I guess they could feel our state. It was

1005
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:25,239
Speaker 2: elevated as well, and so they feed off that he did.

1006
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 1: What about the searching premises or whatever, you send the

1007
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 1: dogs in there in that environment as well.

1008
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:34,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, only if we were going in obviously, if we

1009
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 2: found an empty compound, we had the dogs could find explosives.

1010
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 2: So there's an empty compound, there's nobody in there in

1011
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:46,240
Speaker 2: a suspect area, Well, potentially that's got IEDs and stuff

1012
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,400
Speaker 2: like that in there. So we might lower the dogs

1013
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 2: over the wall and send them around with the camera

1014
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 2: and they you know, we did find some explosives in

1015
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 2: some places, and then we pull the dog back out

1016
00:55:56,719 --> 00:56:01,320
Speaker 2: and tull the EOD Explosive Ordinance Protection guys or disposal

1017
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 2: guys to there's something in that compound there. It's secure,

1018
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 2: there's no enemy in there. So yours boys, we're going

1019
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 2: to be standing back one hundred meters. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1020
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:14,759
Speaker 2: And that's the other thing. Whenever I had a change

1021
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 2: in behavior and a dog, I would recall.

1022
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 1: Him and you would have one dog. You were the

1023
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,759
Speaker 1: dog's handler, so that the dog didn't share handlers. You

1024
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 1: and the dog were the unit.

1025
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:27,279
Speaker 2: That's it. Yeah, And when you got promoted, potentially your

1026
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:30,359
Speaker 2: dog would would be passed on to somebody else if

1027
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:34,040
Speaker 2: he's still operating. And then when it came to retirement

1028
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:37,360
Speaker 2: age for the dog, the primary handler would have have

1029
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:39,919
Speaker 2: first DIBs. But if your home life or whatever it

1030
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 2: wasn't able to accommodate a dog, and then it would

1031
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 2: go to the second handler. Somebody would always pick those

1032
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 2: those dogs up and take them home if they were

1033
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:53,600
Speaker 2: if we deemed them suitable. We had one one dog, Rex.

1034
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:55,880
Speaker 2: He's a little bit too loose and I've got a

1035
00:56:55,880 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 2: big still got a big scar. Yeah, he won the

1036
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 2: first round, but I got over the top. I've got

1037
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:05,640
Speaker 2: a probably what you call a standing eight count, but

1038
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:08,799
Speaker 2: came back for the second round. I got him. But

1039
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 2: actually we had a really good relationship after that. But yeah,

1040
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 2: he was just too loose for us to deem him

1041
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 2: suitable for retirement. He's actually been stuffed and he's in

1042
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:21,680
Speaker 2: the museum at Sash right.

1043
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 1: Well, there's a bond with the dogs, isn't there. And

1044
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 1: I know with their casual it hits home very hard.

1045
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was like I've carried a couple of coffins

1046
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 2: and of your mates remained staunch for carrying the coffins

1047
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:43,240
Speaker 2: of the dogs. It just just broke me. Yeah, feeling

1048
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 2: your voice now. Yeah, so they excuse me.

1049
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, understood, Yeah, it's just yeah.

1050
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:56,160
Speaker 2: We're responsible for them. They they and I do bang

1051
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:59,240
Speaker 2: on about this, use this word. It's unconditional. They've just

1052
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 2: been chosen. They are awesome, and so they're there for us.

1053
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 2: You know that That part of the movie gets me

1054
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 2: just about every time.

1055
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:08,360
Speaker 1: I think for all of us, it was I'm glad

1056
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 1: it was. It was dark. There was a lot of

1057
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:13,440
Speaker 1: tears when the dog was lost. But I suppose they

1058
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 1: put total trust in you. That's that's the thing. You're

1059
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 1: You're they're looking after him and they're looking after you.

1060
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:23,280
Speaker 2: That's it. They're dished out there hunting. It's no different

1061
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 2: training or operations. So going back to the gunfire, it

1062
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 2: doesn't matter to them.

1063
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:32,000
Speaker 1: How did they go when they were back away from conflicts?

1064
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 1: Just when did they decompress? How did they decompress? And

1065
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:39,080
Speaker 1: did they change personalities from the war dog to the

1066
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 1: just the chilled out dog.

1067
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 2: So yeah, and so that's where the clear signals and

1068
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 2: consistence he comes in from us. I don't know if

1069
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 2: you've seen the movie Dog Who Changed They really captured

1070
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 2: it very well. And so you know that that dog's

1071
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 2: handler went and knocked himself. So then the dogs without

1072
00:58:56,160 --> 00:59:00,880
Speaker 2: that bond, without the stability our dogs, you know, we'd

1073
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 2: come back and my old boy Risha, who the kennel

1074
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 2: Bank at Swanbourne is named after. Now, when I first

1075
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:12,439
Speaker 2: got he, I remember, he's just eating his ways, trying

1076
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 2: to easy way through the cage. How are we going

1077
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 2: to do with this? And then we got told by

1078
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 2: the OC that we're not allowed to. You know, I

1079
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 2: got no interest in you. And as we evolved, the

1080
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 2: dogs became as a bought criteria if you don't have

1081
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 2: a dog in the fee. As we knew what we

1082
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 2: were doing, and then the dogs and us evolved to

1083
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 2: the point where Legacy Camp said, yeah, that that dog's

1084
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 2: allowed to come on Legacy Camp, so he'd be playing

1085
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 2: with children, right turn around, yeah, turn around in a

1086
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:45,919
Speaker 2: testament to the quality of the dogs, the stability of them,

1087
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:50,720
Speaker 2: and so once again training and socialization so they're not

1088
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 2: just pulled out of the cage to go and do

1089
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 2: a job. So didn't it I'm out of the cage.

1090
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:57,240
Speaker 2: I got to buy it something. I was socialized for

1091
00:59:57,280 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 2: the troops, and when we're chilling, they were with us

1092
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 2: the whole time, and so there's part of the pack.

1093
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 2: And you know, when we're putting our body armor on

1094
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:08,440
Speaker 2: and their little harnesses on there like the rest of us,

1095
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 2: it's game on, and we're going to and then take

1096
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:16,320
Speaker 2: that harness off and take our body armor off, and

1097
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 2: we're just we're just a fellow and they're just another

1098
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:22,720
Speaker 2: a fun, fun dog to be around and quite stable.

1099
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 2: And yeah, as I said, we go to the kids

1100
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 2: legacy camps and you see some of the parents and

1101
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 2: my dog's got kids lying all over him. You just

1102
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:36,440
Speaker 2: roll around getting fed bottom, training the kids to sneak

1103
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 2: food off to me and parents. Ah, this dog, we

1104
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 2: know what that one does. He was really good with kids. Yeah, yeah,

1105
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:50,360
Speaker 2: it is. So I think we don't understand or we

1106
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 2: don't give them credit for just what they are capable of.

1107
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:57,160
Speaker 2: And so even this one here, I'm just learning so

1108
01:00:57,280 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 2: much more, just little things that he picks up on,

1109
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:00,800
Speaker 2: so you.

1110
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:03,160
Speaker 1: Can see why they value added to a team.

1111
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 2: And then and then you know, if somebody got knocked,

1112
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 2: I'd be like, we don't usually get everybody impacted with

1113
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 2: his harnesses on. You don't pack the dog it's business.

1114
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:15,920
Speaker 2: Then you know we'll be downranged somebody get killed and

1115
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 2: you can pat the dog. So it made everybody feel

1116
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 2: a bit better. So that there was that and even

1117
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 2: to the extent when Sean got killed, some of the

1118
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:29,360
Speaker 2: other guys and other cars, I hope that's not the

1119
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:31,840
Speaker 2: car with a dog in it. That was the first fun.

1120
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:37,080
Speaker 2: So yeah, they just have that effect and that's that bond,

1121
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:41,840
Speaker 2: that unconditional service. We're responsible for him, and yeah, who

1122
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 2: doesn't love a dog.

1123
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 1: Losing colleagues over there and your mates, how did that

1124
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 1: impact on you personally? But there's a group to if

1125
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 1: you lose one of your own.

1126
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think more summed it up. It's just it's

1127
01:01:55,920 --> 01:02:00,200
Speaker 2: a really hard date, tough day at the office, and

1128
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:03,040
Speaker 2: and yeah, when you're still out there on the ground

1129
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:07,040
Speaker 2: and you've just lost them and the body's been backlogged

1130
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:10,160
Speaker 2: because of act, you crack on because you've still got

1131
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 2: a job to do. And then yeah, you come back

1132
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 2: and it does impact your you know, once again, it's

1133
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:21,000
Speaker 2: that autism innus comes out. It Also, you don't want

1134
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:23,000
Speaker 2: to let your team mates down that are still alive,

1135
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:25,320
Speaker 2: and so you suck it up and get back out

1136
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:28,160
Speaker 2: after And I guess it's a risk that we accept

1137
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:30,600
Speaker 2: it sounds like a bit of a throw away line.

1138
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 2: You Okay, that's that's pretty shit. Now we're confronted with

1139
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 2: the realities of it, but you've still got a job

1140
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 2: to do. Your mortality is really rammed home to your

1141
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 2: own so but you've still got got to get out

1142
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:46,880
Speaker 2: there after it. And as once again, it's it's not

1143
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:49,240
Speaker 2: about me, it's about those guys that left a variety

1144
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 2: and so you don't want to let them down, so

1145
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 2: you step up. That's why people talk about warrior culture

1146
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:58,120
Speaker 2: is toxic and everything like that, but it's it's essentially

1147
01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:00,960
Speaker 2: it's shame based. You don't want let the team down.

1148
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 2: I don't want the mates down. I got to get

1149
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:05,720
Speaker 2: out there, and that's really what drove me to create

1150
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:09,840
Speaker 2: the dog capability. You never worked with children or animals

1151
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:12,240
Speaker 2: in specs. I'm working with both.

1152
01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:17,040
Speaker 1: It's it's interesting, like you say, shame based, and you

1153
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:19,440
Speaker 1: wouldn't think that would be part of it, But I understand,

1154
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 1: like in tactical policing, when I was doing jobs in

1155
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 1: tactical policing, I wasn't going in scared about being injured.

1156
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:29,959
Speaker 1: You're going in worried that you might do the wrong thing. Yeah,

1157
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:33,640
Speaker 1: that was a greater fear than Okay, well if you

1158
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:37,600
Speaker 1: got injured and then went shit, that's acceptable, But what

1159
01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:39,720
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been acceptable if you went in there and

1160
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:42,440
Speaker 1: stuffed up or let your mate down. It's a funny

1161
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:44,200
Speaker 1: thing that drives people.

1162
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:45,920
Speaker 2: Isn't it. I know? And I think if we had

1163
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:48,200
Speaker 2: a little bit more of that warrior culture in society,

1164
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:50,680
Speaker 2: probably a little bit of a better place. And actually

1165
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:54,400
Speaker 2: I believe that it would make coming home a lot

1166
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:57,560
Speaker 2: easier because we know what we talk about when we

1167
01:03:57,680 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 2: say somebody has got no shame, and if the society

1168
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:04,320
Speaker 2: doesn't have any shame and you come back, then it's

1169
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:08,800
Speaker 2: really hard to contemplate. Okay, I went and did this

1170
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:13,360
Speaker 2: for for that, you know, and so you know, people

1171
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:17,720
Speaker 2: have a bit of gratitude and responsibility. Then then that

1172
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:20,840
Speaker 2: is essentially you know you're talking about you young fellows,

1173
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 2: that responsibility that was he's taken on to from from

1174
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 2: his military service and then he's doing, well, well, you're

1175
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:32,960
Speaker 2: proud to go and downrange for people like that and

1176
01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:36,240
Speaker 2: were responsible, and so I for everyone takes a bit

1177
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 2: more responsibility. Yeah, I'm happy to have gone and done

1178
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 2: that for them.

1179
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:42,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I understand what.

1180
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 2: You're saying, there'll be no problems, but.

1181
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:47,040
Speaker 1: Where you're coming from, there was another and it came

1182
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:50,840
Speaker 1: up with the war crime allegations and played out in

1183
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:53,440
Speaker 1: the media and that they're talking about, and there was

1184
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:58,600
Speaker 1: films of you guys debriefing or de stressing at the

1185
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:03,320
Speaker 1: Fat Lady's arms, and that issue was addressed in the documentary,

1186
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:05,560
Speaker 1: and I think it put it in perspective. And you

1187
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:09,520
Speaker 1: had former prime ministers saying that they went there, you

1188
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:13,800
Speaker 1: had us pilots saying they went there and they respected

1189
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:16,240
Speaker 1: things that were going on in that place, and it

1190
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:20,760
Speaker 1: was just an area for you guys to decompress. I

1191
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:24,160
Speaker 1: thought it told it well. I when it first came

1192
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:28,520
Speaker 1: out and there was shock, horror. Look, everyone's misbehaving or drinking.

1193
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:32,040
Speaker 1: You've got to see how police unmined after a stressful job,

1194
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:35,200
Speaker 1: and if the cameras were on us, taken out of context,

1195
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:40,960
Speaker 1: looked terrible and shameful. But I think it was explained

1196
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:43,800
Speaker 1: very well. And for the life of me, I can't

1197
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:47,760
Speaker 1: see how people can judge people destressing When you're gone

1198
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:50,760
Speaker 1: out there serving the country following orders you got. You

1199
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:53,600
Speaker 1: can't say no, I'm not going out tonight. Or whatever.

1200
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 1: You've got a job to do, and that seemed to

1201
01:05:56,320 --> 01:06:00,720
Speaker 1: me to be a way to decompress and find light

1202
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:04,720
Speaker 1: or relief, take the pressure off. What am I reading

1203
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 1: it right?

1204
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:08,840
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, I didn't see. It was a little in

1205
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:11,920
Speaker 2: a sanctum that we had that safe space where you

1206
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:16,360
Speaker 2: could just unwind and whatever went on outside the why

1207
01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 2: you could have a chat about it and find a

1208
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:22,040
Speaker 2: light of sight in it and over a few beers

1209
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:27,320
Speaker 2: and just decompress and then crack on. I mean, I'll

1210
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:30,600
Speaker 2: say this in the film. Everybody that I this on

1211
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:34,120
Speaker 2: a Friday Saturday night every week and they've just got

1212
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:37,640
Speaker 2: office jobs or talking about the trials and tribulations that

1213
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 2: went on at work. And so it's culturally, it's a thing,

1214
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:43,600
Speaker 2: and it's a thing everybody does. And so we just

1215
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:47,000
Speaker 2: happened to do it downrange and it was in that

1216
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:50,360
Speaker 2: small safe space, and we make sure that there was

1217
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:55,000
Speaker 2: still people sober and make sure that we were still

1218
01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:59,480
Speaker 2: good to go for jobs potentially the next day, and

1219
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 2: so it was done as responsibly as we could. Yeah

1220
01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:07,400
Speaker 2: as well, So it was very important and that's a

1221
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 2: lot of the feedback from the prime ministers and anybody

1222
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:15,640
Speaker 2: that went there this is awesome. So the pilots and

1223
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:19,200
Speaker 2: everybody that came in from the outside, well, we got

1224
01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:22,600
Speaker 2: an invite to that in a sanctum.

1225
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:25,800
Speaker 1: And they saw it as a privilege. And it's just

1226
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:28,800
Speaker 1: something I wanted to raise because I just thought so

1227
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:32,920
Speaker 1: unfair to expect you guys doing what you do and

1228
01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:36,480
Speaker 1: then what you just robots, go back clean your weapons

1229
01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:38,800
Speaker 1: and then just sit waiting to be deployed again. You've

1230
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:40,640
Speaker 1: got to be able and to be able to talk

1231
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:44,240
Speaker 1: to people that understand what you just experienced makes sense

1232
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:47,200
Speaker 1: of it. I think that helps. I know it helped

1233
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:50,360
Speaker 1: in policing. Like we'd see some shit and we'd go

1234
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:52,040
Speaker 1: out and we'd get on the drink and you know,

1235
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:55,880
Speaker 1: we got a bit tardy. But yeah, it helped you.

1236
01:07:56,080 --> 01:07:57,880
Speaker 1: That's how I found that. It was a way of

1237
01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:00,400
Speaker 1: caping with the stress. And we talk about black humor

1238
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:03,040
Speaker 1: and we say things that, ye are inappropriate, but in

1239
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:06,400
Speaker 1: context and how it was said and what was done

1240
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:09,160
Speaker 1: is appropriate in the context. Yeah, well, the.

1241
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:13,200
Speaker 2: Black humor, and I think what people call inappropriate or triggering,

1242
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:17,680
Speaker 2: if you can go there without humor, you're pretty much

1243
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:19,599
Speaker 2: not that. If you do a racist joke or a

1244
01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:23,559
Speaker 2: sexious joke. You can joke about things. I'm pretty confident

1245
01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:25,840
Speaker 2: that you're not that. It's the ones that get offended

1246
01:08:26,120 --> 01:08:29,280
Speaker 2: by that and go, that's that's what you probably are.

1247
01:08:29,400 --> 01:08:32,200
Speaker 2: Because people speak out loudest against that what they fear

1248
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:33,680
Speaker 2: they are most run that.

1249
01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:36,600
Speaker 1: I like, that's that's a good way coming back in.

1250
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:39,000
Speaker 2: And every time I get triggered by what the hell

1251
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:42,200
Speaker 2: is the city, that weak person or whatever, that's what

1252
01:08:42,280 --> 01:08:44,760
Speaker 2: I'm scared of that I am too. So that's what

1253
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:49,160
Speaker 2: also drove us to do amazing things. It's that that

1254
01:08:49,439 --> 01:08:52,400
Speaker 2: shame or I don't want to be that and so

1255
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:55,360
Speaker 2: and then I see somebody that I really don't want

1256
01:08:55,360 --> 01:08:57,639
Speaker 2: to be or I'm afraid that I maybe I am,

1257
01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:02,559
Speaker 2: and speak out against it. So that's when people you

1258
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:06,400
Speaker 2: can't talk about this, you can't say that. I think

1259
01:09:06,439 --> 01:09:09,280
Speaker 2: that's probably what you are. If I can make a

1260
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:13,320
Speaker 2: joke about whatever, then it's a joke and we can

1261
01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:16,720
Speaker 2: playlight about it. It's a funny one.

1262
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:19,759
Speaker 1: Well, you've touched on a couple of things about society

1263
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:22,719
Speaker 1: be better off if we're this and that. It seems

1264
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:25,080
Speaker 1: to me like the pendulum has swung so far it

1265
01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:29,240
Speaker 1: just needs a reset. To accountability and all sorts of

1266
01:09:29,320 --> 01:09:33,679
Speaker 1: things and responsibility and referencing him back to a young

1267
01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:38,320
Speaker 1: Feller going into the army and having values, instilled sense

1268
01:09:38,320 --> 01:09:42,040
Speaker 1: of responsibility and purpose. I think that's crying out for it.

1269
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:45,160
Speaker 2: Well, well, I think what we're seeing is it's a

1270
01:09:45,160 --> 01:09:49,080
Speaker 2: lot of the end of empire's criteria symptoms. So you know,

1271
01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:55,120
Speaker 2: the neglected military, the descent into hedonism and plenty and entitlement,

1272
01:09:55,720 --> 01:09:58,400
Speaker 2: and so we've got people that aren't responsible for their

1273
01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:02,599
Speaker 2: lives and don't care about anybody else, and they just take, take, take,

1274
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:08,080
Speaker 2: and that headingism. And we've seen it with the Babylonians,

1275
01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:09,240
Speaker 2: the Romans.

1276
01:10:09,520 --> 01:10:14,920
Speaker 1: The Greeks dictating where we're at this present time.

1277
01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:17,519
Speaker 2: And neglect of the military is a big one because

1278
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:21,160
Speaker 2: then the other armies will just come in over the top.

1279
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:24,800
Speaker 2: And so we see similarities with the Romans, the Barbarians.

1280
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:27,120
Speaker 2: I don't worry about them. We'll just keep going on

1281
01:10:27,160 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 2: with our orgies and whatever done and the next thing

1282
01:10:30,040 --> 01:10:33,200
Speaker 2: you know, the Rome's been sacked. So you know, it's

1283
01:10:33,240 --> 01:10:35,559
Speaker 2: like when you're grow on a This is on a

1284
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:38,840
Speaker 2: macro level, but on a micro level, you tell your kids,

1285
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:41,720
Speaker 2: if you don't look after your toys, you won't have them.

1286
01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:43,600
Speaker 2: And so if you don't look after the country and

1287
01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:47,800
Speaker 2: protect and do and step up and take responsibility, then

1288
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:51,360
Speaker 2: you'll lose it. And I think what we've got now

1289
01:10:51,479 --> 01:10:56,200
Speaker 2: is people will just vote for whoever handsome free money

1290
01:10:56,240 --> 01:10:58,840
Speaker 2: and it's a short term and nobody wants to tighten

1291
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:01,960
Speaker 2: their belts to look after the future. I'm not saying nobody,

1292
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:03,240
Speaker 2: there's quite a lot that do.

1293
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:07,360
Speaker 1: It's at strange times. I looked at in recent times

1294
01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:09,360
Speaker 1: protests in the streets of Sydney and there were so

1295
01:11:09,479 --> 01:11:13,559
Speaker 1: many protests groups going around that it was just this

1296
01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:16,600
Speaker 1: person's protesting about that, that person's protesting about that, and

1297
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:20,120
Speaker 1: it was just it seem chaotic and shambalie. That's a

1298
01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:24,160
Speaker 1: strange times chaos. We might take a break now when

1299
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:27,439
Speaker 1: we get back and thank you for your insight into

1300
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:30,599
Speaker 1: your service saver in Afghanistan and just a little bit

1301
01:11:30,640 --> 01:11:33,200
Speaker 1: about yourself and the tips have given me for making

1302
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:37,600
Speaker 1: Spike a bigger and better dog come and possible future employment.

1303
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:42,599
Speaker 1: We want to talk about your post army career. Post

1304
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:47,360
Speaker 1: military career, and you've said that you've suffered from PTSD,

1305
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:50,519
Speaker 1: the type of treatment that you're looking for getting your

1306
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:54,080
Speaker 1: insight into that. Will also talk about the Royal Commission

1307
01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:58,960
Speaker 1: into Veteran Suicide and that is only recently played out

1308
01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:03,240
Speaker 1: and some of the recommendations. And I'm curious about all

1309
01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:06,960
Speaker 1: the other stuff that you've done too, like wildlife working

1310
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:10,960
Speaker 1: over in Africa and poaching anti poaching.

1311
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:14,920
Speaker 2: And it's been quite a rewarding journey that.

1312
01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:17,280
Speaker 1: Well, that that that would be fascinating, So a lot,

1313
01:12:17,320 --> 01:12:19,120
Speaker 1: a lot to talk about. If we take a break,

1314
01:12:19,520 --> 01:12:21,640
Speaker 1: might even take these two idiots for a walk and

1315
01:12:22,439 --> 01:12:24,440
Speaker 1: we'll be back soon. Cheers.