1 00:00:05,790 --> 00:00:08,728 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear & Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:08,730 --> 00:00:12,209 Sean Aylmer: Australia is shifting towards renewable energy with a commitment to 3 00:00:12,210 --> 00:00:16,139 Sean Aylmer: reach net- zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. But that 4 00:00:16,139 --> 00:00:18,810 Sean Aylmer: transition comes with plenty of challenges, and one of the 5 00:00:18,810 --> 00:00:21,779 Sean Aylmer: biggest is ensuring there's enough power, not just to keep 6 00:00:21,780 --> 00:00:25,050 Sean Aylmer: the lights on, but to keep business and heavy industry 7 00:00:25,050 --> 00:00:28,409 Sean Aylmer: running. There are short- term fixes like the extensions to coal- 8 00:00:28,410 --> 00:00:31,769 Sean Aylmer: fired power plants as they're gradually phased out. Then there 9 00:00:31,770 --> 00:00:34,289 Sean Aylmer: are long- term plans like the federal government's Future Gas 10 00:00:34,289 --> 00:00:37,199 Sean Aylmer: Strategy, which outlines how natural gas will be used for 11 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,370 Sean Aylmer: energy security during the transition. Samantha McCulloch is the chief 12 00:00:41,370 --> 00:00:45,150 Sean Aylmer: executive of Australian Energy Producers, which is a supporter of 13 00:00:45,150 --> 00:00:48,990 Sean Aylmer: this podcast. Australian Energy Producers is the peak body representing 14 00:00:48,990 --> 00:00:52,859 Sean Aylmer: Australia's oil and gas exploration and production industry. Sam, welcome 15 00:00:52,859 --> 00:00:53,580 Sean Aylmer: to Fear & Greed. 16 00:00:53,789 --> 00:00:55,500 Samantha McCulloch: Hi, Sean. Thanks so much for having me. 17 00:00:56,250 --> 00:00:59,730 Sean Aylmer: To put it simply, what's the main priority here? Is 18 00:00:59,730 --> 00:01:02,639 Sean Aylmer: it energy security, ensuring we have enough power during the 19 00:01:02,639 --> 00:01:04,380 Sean Aylmer: transition; is that what this is about? 20 00:01:05,190 --> 00:01:07,049 Samantha McCulloch: Look, it has to be about all of the above, 21 00:01:07,049 --> 00:01:09,839 Samantha McCulloch: really. And this is where natural gas plays a really 22 00:01:09,839 --> 00:01:12,869 Samantha McCulloch: important role in terms of supporting the transition to net- 23 00:01:12,870 --> 00:01:16,709 Samantha McCulloch: zero, but also ensuring that reliability and affordability of the 24 00:01:16,709 --> 00:01:20,729 Samantha McCulloch: transition along the way. We've spoken already about the power 25 00:01:20,730 --> 00:01:24,059 Samantha McCulloch: generation sector and here we see natural gas being that 26 00:01:24,059 --> 00:01:27,299 Samantha McCulloch: sort of reliable backup as we deploy more renewables into 27 00:01:27,299 --> 00:01:30,658 Samantha McCulloch: the system and supporting the shift away from coal. And 28 00:01:31,109 --> 00:01:34,319 Samantha McCulloch: natural gas is also supplying around 42% of the energy 29 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,289 Samantha McCulloch: needed by our manufacturing sector. So it's playing a really 30 00:01:37,290 --> 00:01:39,450 Samantha McCulloch: key role in terms of our economy, in terms of 31 00:01:39,450 --> 00:01:43,139 Samantha McCulloch: energy security, but also in terms of emissions reductions as 32 00:01:43,139 --> 00:01:45,449 Samantha McCulloch: we transition towards net- zero by 2050. 33 00:01:45,450 --> 00:01:49,980 Sean Aylmer: Okay. I think it's important to highlight this point. Gas 34 00:01:49,980 --> 00:01:53,550 Sean Aylmer: and coal are different when it comes to carbon emissions. 35 00:01:53,550 --> 00:01:54,690 Sean Aylmer: How different are they? 36 00:01:55,260 --> 00:01:58,529 Samantha McCulloch: Well, when you're talking about power generation, the emissions on 37 00:01:58,530 --> 00:02:01,590 Samantha McCulloch: average from gas- fired power generation are about half that 38 00:02:01,590 --> 00:02:04,529 Samantha McCulloch: of coal. So you can actually get very significant emissions 39 00:02:04,529 --> 00:02:08,490 Samantha McCulloch: reductions, and we've seen this internationally, including in countries like 40 00:02:08,490 --> 00:02:11,370 Samantha McCulloch: the United States, where that coal- to- gas switching has 41 00:02:11,370 --> 00:02:15,599 Samantha McCulloch: had a really significant impact on overall emissions reductions. Gas 42 00:02:15,599 --> 00:02:19,560 Samantha McCulloch: is also supporting backing up renewables. So it provides that 43 00:02:19,770 --> 00:02:22,829 Samantha McCulloch: reliable source of power that enables us to deploy more 44 00:02:22,829 --> 00:02:26,250 Samantha McCulloch: renewables into the system, but still have that reliability so 45 00:02:26,250 --> 00:02:29,280 Samantha McCulloch: that when the sun's not shining and the wind's not blowing, we 46 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,429 Samantha McCulloch: do still have that reliable power going to households, going 47 00:02:32,429 --> 00:02:33,809 Samantha McCulloch: to Australian businesses. 48 00:02:34,710 --> 00:02:37,169 Sean Aylmer: The government's clearly identified gas as being key to the 49 00:02:37,169 --> 00:02:41,190 Sean Aylmer: transition with its Future Gas Strategy. It's a very difficult 50 00:02:41,190 --> 00:02:45,150 Sean Aylmer: area to make policy in because it's impossible to satisfy 51 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,090 Sean Aylmer: everyone. But can you run me through the key parts 52 00:02:48,090 --> 00:02:49,018 Sean Aylmer: of that strategy? 53 00:02:49,650 --> 00:02:51,990 Samantha McCulloch: Well, what we need here is an evidence- based and 54 00:02:51,990 --> 00:02:55,770 Samantha McCulloch: pragmatic discussion about the energy mix and the transition to net- 55 00:02:55,770 --> 00:02:59,010 Samantha McCulloch: zero. Our industry is firmly committed to net- zero and 56 00:02:59,010 --> 00:03:02,520 Samantha McCulloch: we see ourselves as partners in that transition. The Future 57 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,149 Samantha McCulloch: Gas Strategy was released by the federal government last month, 58 00:03:06,210 --> 00:03:09,150 Samantha McCulloch: and it was very welcome in terms of the very 59 00:03:09,150 --> 00:03:12,089 Samantha McCulloch: clear messages that it sent about the long- term role 60 00:03:12,090 --> 00:03:15,508 Samantha McCulloch: of gas in our energy mix to 2050 and beyond. 61 00:03:15,870 --> 00:03:18,090 Samantha McCulloch: This is, again, because of that role of gas in 62 00:03:18,150 --> 00:03:22,260 Samantha McCulloch: electricity generation, also in manufacturing. If we want to capture 63 00:03:22,260 --> 00:03:26,220 Samantha McCulloch: those new opportunities around net- zero, including processing critical minerals, 64 00:03:26,490 --> 00:03:29,160 Samantha McCulloch: that actually will need more gas because it relies on 65 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:34,168 Samantha McCulloch: high temperature, reliable, controllable heat. The Future Gas Strategy, in 66 00:03:34,169 --> 00:03:37,830 Samantha McCulloch: addition to setting that clear pathway for gas long- term, 67 00:03:38,310 --> 00:03:41,850 Samantha McCulloch: was very important in also confirming our commitment to be 68 00:03:41,850 --> 00:03:45,180 Samantha McCulloch: a reliable and stable supplier of LNG to the region. 69 00:03:45,630 --> 00:03:49,410 Samantha McCulloch: We have very longstanding trading relationships with countries like Japan 70 00:03:49,410 --> 00:03:52,980 Samantha McCulloch: and Korea. Until recently, we were the world's largest exporter 71 00:03:52,980 --> 00:03:57,030 Samantha McCulloch: of LNG, and it's vital that we're maintaining those relationships long- 72 00:03:57,030 --> 00:04:02,250 Samantha McCulloch: term. The Future Gas Strategy was also important in underscoring 73 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:07,650 Samantha McCulloch: the role of carbon capture and storage technologies in supporting the decarbonisation 74 00:04:07,650 --> 00:04:10,650 Samantha McCulloch: of our economy. These are technologies that are important not 75 00:04:10,650 --> 00:04:14,010 Samantha McCulloch: just for our industry, but for the heavy industry: steel, 76 00:04:14,010 --> 00:04:18,930 Samantha McCulloch: cement, chemicals processing. And in fact, the International Energy Agency 77 00:04:18,930 --> 00:04:22,139 Samantha McCulloch: has found that getting to net- zero without CCS is 78 00:04:22,139 --> 00:04:25,380 Samantha McCulloch: virtually impossible. So it was welcome that the Future Gas 79 00:04:25,380 --> 00:04:29,909 Samantha McCulloch: Strategy did put emphasis on those opportunities for Australia to 80 00:04:29,969 --> 00:04:33,120 Samantha McCulloch: create new industries but also support decarbonisation. 81 00:04:34,500 --> 00:04:36,750 Sean Aylmer: I want to get to carbon capture and storage in a moment, 82 00:04:36,930 --> 00:04:38,969 Sean Aylmer: but I need you to dumb this down for me 83 00:04:38,970 --> 00:04:41,909 Sean Aylmer: a little bit. How's it actually work in practice? So 84 00:04:41,910 --> 00:04:47,129 Sean Aylmer: we have wind and solar being sources and eventually primary 85 00:04:47,129 --> 00:04:51,210 Sean Aylmer: sources, and then gas filling the gaps. That might be 86 00:04:51,210 --> 00:04:54,450 Sean Aylmer: a huge gap and in some sectors might be particularly 87 00:04:54,450 --> 00:04:58,950 Sean Aylmer: large, in other areas, less so. And it's around peak 88 00:04:58,950 --> 00:05:02,099 Sean Aylmer: demand. I get that. Is it as simple as that, 89 00:05:02,099 --> 00:05:05,310 Sean Aylmer: that the actual grid is able to get the input 90 00:05:05,339 --> 00:05:08,789 Sean Aylmer: of these different power sources and mix and match as 91 00:05:08,790 --> 00:05:13,080 Sean Aylmer: necessary? I've got to say that the process, the logistics 92 00:05:14,190 --> 00:05:15,089 Sean Aylmer: always confuse me. 93 00:05:15,719 --> 00:05:18,509 Samantha McCulloch: So when we are talking about the electricity system, which 94 00:05:18,509 --> 00:05:21,178 Samantha McCulloch: is just one part of our energy mix, gas plays 95 00:05:21,178 --> 00:05:24,000 Samantha McCulloch: that important role in being able to switch on and off 96 00:05:24,150 --> 00:05:27,510 Samantha McCulloch: very quickly. So if there's an increase in demand or 97 00:05:27,510 --> 00:05:31,589 Samantha McCulloch: a decline in production of energy from other sources, including 98 00:05:31,589 --> 00:05:34,469 Samantha McCulloch: renewables, gas can step in and be that safety net. 99 00:05:34,529 --> 00:05:36,809 Samantha McCulloch: And so that's why it's so important that we have 100 00:05:36,809 --> 00:05:40,469 Samantha McCulloch: that gas- fired power generation there to fill those gaps, 101 00:05:40,469 --> 00:05:43,830 Samantha McCulloch: essentially. But of course, gas will also continue to be 102 00:05:43,830 --> 00:05:46,800 Samantha McCulloch: really important in other parts of the economy, and that includes 103 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,488 Samantha McCulloch: in terms of home heating where it's used directly, but 104 00:05:50,490 --> 00:05:54,089 Samantha McCulloch: also in industry where it's used either as a feedstock 105 00:05:54,089 --> 00:05:57,900 Samantha McCulloch: in some applications or for really high temperature heat. And 106 00:05:57,900 --> 00:06:01,769 Samantha McCulloch: these are applications that can't be electrified, so renewables aren't 107 00:06:01,769 --> 00:06:04,560 Samantha McCulloch: ready to step in and replace a role for gas. 108 00:06:05,100 --> 00:06:07,260 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Samantha. We'll be back in a minute. 109 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:18,210 Sean Aylmer: I'm speaking to Sam McCulloch, CEO of Australian Energy Producers. 110 00:06:19,860 --> 00:06:23,610 Sean Aylmer: So do you think there's a role for gas, certainly for decades, but for 111 00:06:23,610 --> 00:06:24,659 Sean Aylmer: longer than decades? 112 00:06:25,529 --> 00:06:29,759 Samantha McCulloch: Certainly all of the analysis domestically in Australia, but also 113 00:06:29,759 --> 00:06:32,669 Samantha McCulloch: when you look at global pathways to net- zero, there's 114 00:06:32,670 --> 00:06:36,118 Samantha McCulloch: a misconception, I think, that net- zero means that we 115 00:06:36,119 --> 00:06:38,760 Samantha McCulloch: have no fossil fuels in the mix. But even in 116 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,510 Samantha McCulloch: really ambitious scenarios, you still have almost 20% of the 117 00:06:42,510 --> 00:06:47,609 Samantha McCulloch: energy mix coming from fossil fuels in 2050. And that's 118 00:06:47,610 --> 00:06:51,360 Samantha McCulloch: predominantly gas, and that's because gas is irreplaceable in so 119 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,140 Samantha McCulloch: many applications, and because we'll continue to need gas in 120 00:06:55,140 --> 00:06:58,620 Samantha McCulloch: power generation as that reliable backup. So gas will be 121 00:06:58,620 --> 00:07:01,289 Samantha McCulloch: with us for some time, and it's really important that 122 00:07:01,290 --> 00:07:04,018 Samantha McCulloch: we're investing today in the supply that we need to 123 00:07:04,020 --> 00:07:06,900 Samantha McCulloch: meet that demand. That was the key finding of the 124 00:07:06,900 --> 00:07:10,019 Samantha McCulloch: Future Gas Strategy, that we need to be investing urgently 125 00:07:10,020 --> 00:07:12,900 Samantha McCulloch: now in new supply to ensure that we can meet 126 00:07:12,900 --> 00:07:17,400 Samantha McCulloch: demand, not just in the power sector, but for industrial applications 127 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:18,900 Samantha McCulloch: and households across Australia. 128 00:07:19,530 --> 00:07:23,910 Sean Aylmer: Okay. You mentioned carbon capture and storage. More correctly, it's 129 00:07:23,910 --> 00:07:29,400 Sean Aylmer: actually carbon capture utilization and storage, CCUS. The International Energy 130 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,120 Sean Aylmer: Agency has said that getting to net- zero without CCUS 131 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:37,620 Sean Aylmer: is virtually impossible. You just highlighted that point there. You 132 00:07:37,620 --> 00:07:40,979 Sean Aylmer: see a big opportunity here for Australia and for the 133 00:07:40,980 --> 00:07:46,320 Sean Aylmer: gas industry specifically. Firstly, how does it work in terms 134 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,070 Sean Aylmer: of CCS/CCUS, and then how can you roll it out? 135 00:07:51,270 --> 00:07:54,540 Samantha McCulloch: CCS is a really key technology for net- zero. It 136 00:07:54,540 --> 00:07:58,170 Samantha McCulloch: involves capturing CO₂ from point sources -- so that could be 137 00:07:58,170 --> 00:08:02,819 Samantha McCulloch: industrial facilities or a power station -- and safely and permanently 138 00:08:02,820 --> 00:08:06,900 Samantha McCulloch: storing the CCO₂ deep underground, up to two kilometers underground. 139 00:08:07,260 --> 00:08:11,250 Samantha McCulloch: This is often in depleted oil and gas reservoirs that 140 00:08:11,250 --> 00:08:14,340 Samantha McCulloch: have already held gas for millions of years. So in 141 00:08:14,340 --> 00:08:16,109 Samantha McCulloch: some ways, you can think about it as the oil 142 00:08:16,110 --> 00:08:18,960 Samantha McCulloch: and gas industry in reverse, where we're putting the gases 143 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,680 Samantha McCulloch: back down underground. It's a key technology for net- zero 144 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:27,390 Samantha McCulloch: because there are few alternatives to CCS in some sectors, including 145 00:08:27,750 --> 00:08:32,010 Samantha McCulloch: in heavy industry; cement production, for example. So we know 146 00:08:32,010 --> 00:08:35,069 Samantha McCulloch: we'll need CCS also for carbon removal. So you can 147 00:08:35,070 --> 00:08:38,730 Samantha McCulloch: now take CO2 directly out of the atmosphere and store 148 00:08:38,730 --> 00:08:42,150 Samantha McCulloch: it, so emissions that have already been emitted can now 149 00:08:42,150 --> 00:08:45,360 Samantha McCulloch: be captured directly from the air and stored. And those 150 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,590 Samantha McCulloch: carbon removal opportunities are actually the key for getting the 151 00:08:49,590 --> 00:08:52,530 Samantha McCulloch: net in net- zero and striking that balance that we 152 00:08:52,530 --> 00:08:56,759 Samantha McCulloch: need. In terms of Australia's opportunity, we have all of 153 00:08:56,759 --> 00:09:00,478 Samantha McCulloch: the tools that we need to deploy CCS effectively. And 154 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,020 Samantha McCulloch: in fact, we already are home to one of the largest CCS projects in 155 00:09:04,020 --> 00:09:07,260 Samantha McCulloch: the world at the Gorgon CCS facility. We'll have another 156 00:09:07,260 --> 00:09:11,040 Samantha McCulloch: major CCS facility in operation later this year at Moomba. 157 00:09:11,490 --> 00:09:13,978 Samantha McCulloch: And there are about six or seven other large scout 158 00:09:13,980 --> 00:09:18,569 Samantha McCulloch: facilities under development around Australia. This is really important, not 159 00:09:18,570 --> 00:09:20,850 Samantha McCulloch: just for the oil and gas industry, but for those 160 00:09:20,850 --> 00:09:24,120 Samantha McCulloch: other heavy industries that will need to rely on CCS 161 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:28,349 Samantha McCulloch: to be consistent with net- zero targets. Importantly, CCS is 162 00:09:28,349 --> 00:09:31,589 Samantha McCulloch: also an opportunity for us to expand our trading relationships, 163 00:09:31,889 --> 00:09:35,370 Samantha McCulloch: including with our existing trading partners of Japan and Korea. 164 00:09:36,150 --> 00:09:39,390 Samantha McCulloch: These countries are not blessed with the same geological storage 165 00:09:39,390 --> 00:09:42,988 Samantha McCulloch: that we are, and they're looking for partners, including with 166 00:09:42,990 --> 00:09:45,839 Samantha McCulloch: Australia, to be able to ship their CO₂ back and 167 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:50,610 Samantha McCulloch: safely and permanently store it to meet their own decarbonisation objectives. 168 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,299 Samantha McCulloch: We recently released some studies that actually highlighted that this 169 00:09:54,299 --> 00:09:57,390 Samantha McCulloch: could be a revenue generator in the order of $ 600 170 00:09:57,390 --> 00:10:01,920 Samantha McCulloch: billion, according to Wood Mackenzie, for Australia, because of the 171 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,410 Samantha McCulloch: demand for CO₂ storage in our region. 172 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,129 Sean Aylmer: The logistics of this works too? You can somehow get 173 00:10:09,299 --> 00:10:12,479 Sean Aylmer: carbon to some sort of form that you can transport 174 00:10:12,780 --> 00:10:16,530 Sean Aylmer: long distances to Gorgon or from overseas? 175 00:10:16,650 --> 00:10:20,730 Samantha McCulloch: Absolutely. You can compress the CO₂. This is a technology 176 00:10:20,730 --> 00:10:24,240 Samantha McCulloch: that's been used for decades and there are more than 7, 177 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:28,078 Samantha McCulloch: 000 kilometers of pipelines in the U. S. where CO₂ 178 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,320 Samantha McCulloch: is moved around. It's a technology that's been used for 179 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,718 Samantha McCulloch: decades, so we know it's proven, we know we can 180 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,598 Samantha McCulloch: do it. Now the challenge is really ensuring we can 181 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:38,670 Samantha McCulloch: roll it out at the scale and pace that we 182 00:10:38,670 --> 00:10:40,680 Samantha McCulloch: need to meet our net- zero targets. 183 00:10:41,490 --> 00:10:43,950 Sean Aylmer: So wrapping all this up, we will see less coal- 184 00:10:43,950 --> 00:10:49,439 Sean Aylmer: fired power stations, and we're seeing that, and we have 185 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:51,990 Sean Aylmer: dates for some of those to close. In terms of 186 00:10:51,990 --> 00:10:56,069 Sean Aylmer: gas products, we may not actually see less. We may 187 00:10:56,070 --> 00:10:59,040 Sean Aylmer: actually need more of it, at least in coming decades 188 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,070 Sean Aylmer: as we head towards net- zero, and then renewables will 189 00:11:02,070 --> 00:11:04,769 Sean Aylmer: increase over time. Is that kind of the big picture? 190 00:11:05,369 --> 00:11:09,240 Samantha McCulloch: Certainly. Even our Australian energy market operator is signaling that 191 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,598 Samantha McCulloch: we need to build another 13 gigawatts of new gas- 192 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,598 Samantha McCulloch: fired power generation just on the East Coast, to be 193 00:11:15,599 --> 00:11:19,289 Samantha McCulloch: able to ensure that we have that reliable electricity supply 194 00:11:19,290 --> 00:11:22,740 Samantha McCulloch: for Australian households and businesses. So there's an important role 195 00:11:22,740 --> 00:11:27,270 Samantha McCulloch: for gas going forward long- term in power generation. There's 196 00:11:27,270 --> 00:11:30,958 Samantha McCulloch: also new opportunities, I should say, to use gas domestically. 197 00:11:31,020 --> 00:11:35,279 Samantha McCulloch: That includes producing low- carbon hydrogen, so you can produce low- 198 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:39,270 Samantha McCulloch: carbon hydrogen from natural gas combined with carbon capturing storage 199 00:11:39,270 --> 00:11:43,319 Samantha McCulloch: technologies. And this is a pathway that's between two and 200 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:47,940 Samantha McCulloch: six times cheaper than renewable- based hydrogen currently. So it's 201 00:11:47,940 --> 00:11:50,429 Samantha McCulloch: a really key way for us to start to develop 202 00:11:50,429 --> 00:11:55,230 Samantha McCulloch: those hydrogen markets and hydrogen supply for our industrial sector, 203 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,739 Samantha McCulloch: but it does rely on a steady supply of natural gas. 204 00:11:59,879 --> 00:12:01,950 Sean Aylmer: Sam, do you think one of the big challenges here 205 00:12:02,429 --> 00:12:07,140 Sean Aylmer: is understanding what you're talking about? You talk to me 206 00:12:07,140 --> 00:12:08,580 Sean Aylmer: and I get it, and I'm a big fan of 207 00:12:08,580 --> 00:12:11,458 Sean Aylmer: CCS, and I truly believe that you do need gas 208 00:12:11,490 --> 00:12:13,710 Sean Aylmer: in the transition because otherwise the lights are going to 209 00:12:13,710 --> 00:12:16,650 Sean Aylmer: go out, literally. Do you think that point, though, is 210 00:12:16,650 --> 00:12:20,309 Sean Aylmer: clear enough to the general population? And all the debate 211 00:12:20,309 --> 00:12:24,570 Sean Aylmer: we have around it, political or non- political, sometimes I 212 00:12:24,570 --> 00:12:26,999 Sean Aylmer: think the education piece there might be missing a little bit. 213 00:12:27,540 --> 00:12:30,719 Samantha McCulloch: Well, certainly I think it's important that we're communicating with 214 00:12:30,719 --> 00:12:34,889 Samantha McCulloch: the broader community about the energy transitions, the challenges inherent 215 00:12:34,889 --> 00:12:38,130 Samantha McCulloch: in the energy transition, and the role for gas in 216 00:12:38,309 --> 00:12:43,320 Samantha McCulloch: providing that reliable and stable electricity and energy supply. As 217 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,899 Samantha McCulloch: an organization, we're trying to support that. We have a 218 00:12:45,900 --> 00:12:49,469 Samantha McCulloch: national campaign running that's highlighting the role of gas in 219 00:12:49,469 --> 00:12:54,000 Samantha McCulloch: particular in electricity generation. But it's key that we have 220 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,800 Samantha McCulloch: a informed and balanced debate and discussion about the energy 221 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,098 Samantha McCulloch: mix going forward. It's clear from all of the analysis 222 00:13:02,099 --> 00:13:04,830 Samantha McCulloch: from the Future Gas Strategy that gas will play a 223 00:13:04,830 --> 00:13:08,520 Samantha McCulloch: really important and growing and evolving role to 2050 and 224 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,910 Samantha McCulloch: beyond, and we need to ensure that we're communicating that 225 00:13:12,059 --> 00:13:16,050 Samantha McCulloch: effectively to the broader community, who do need to and 226 00:13:16,050 --> 00:13:19,530 Samantha McCulloch: rightly expect reliable and affordable energy. And gas will be 227 00:13:19,530 --> 00:13:20,130 Samantha McCulloch: part of that. 228 00:13:20,790 --> 00:13:22,529 Sean Aylmer: Sam, thank you for talking to Fear & Greed. 229 00:13:22,950 --> 00:13:23,730 Samantha McCulloch: Thanks so much, Sean. 230 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,289 Sean Aylmer: That's Samantha McCulloch, chief executive of Australian Energy Producers, a 231 00:13:28,289 --> 00:13:30,990 Sean Aylmer: great supporter of this podcast. This is the Fear & Greed 232 00:13:30,990 --> 00:13:33,449 Sean Aylmer: Business Interview. Join us every morning for the full episode 233 00:13:33,450 --> 00:13:36,000 Sean Aylmer: of Fear & Greed, daily business news for people who make 234 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,790 Sean Aylmer: their own decisions. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.