1 00:00:03,430 --> 00:00:07,220 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear & Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. With a property 2 00:00:07,220 --> 00:00:09,899 Sean Aylmer: market red hot for some time now, it's little wonder 3 00:00:09,900 --> 00:00:13,660 Sean Aylmer: that online property group, Domain reported big jumps in revenue 4 00:00:13,740 --> 00:00:17,960 Sean Aylmer: last half up 27%, but interest rates are set to 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,439 Sean Aylmer: rise and the market is already showing just a few 6 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:24,500 Sean Aylmer: signs of cooling. Jason Pellegrino is the Chief Executive Officer 7 00:00:24,530 --> 00:00:26,750 Sean Aylmer: of Domain. Jason, welcome to Fear And Greed. 8 00:00:27,300 --> 00:00:28,040 Jason Pellegrino: Thank you for having me. 9 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,270 Sean Aylmer: Now. I want to get onto Domain itself in a moment, but I 10 00:00:31,270 --> 00:00:33,450 Sean Aylmer: can't have someone like you on the show without asking 11 00:00:33,450 --> 00:00:36,180 Sean Aylmer: upfront, what is happening in the housing market. What's your 12 00:00:36,180 --> 00:00:36,760 Sean Aylmer: take on it? 13 00:00:37,229 --> 00:00:39,840 Jason Pellegrino: Yeah. Every Australian wants to go to their next barbecue and know exactly 14 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,080 Jason Pellegrino: what's going on, because that's the topic of conversation. 15 00:00:42,270 --> 00:00:42,570 Sean Aylmer: Absolutely. 16 00:00:42,570 --> 00:00:46,440 Jason Pellegrino: Look, it's been an extraordinary couple of years, and obviously 17 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,960 Jason Pellegrino: through COVID and even previous to that, the Royal Commission 18 00:00:50,250 --> 00:00:53,430 Jason Pellegrino: impacted banks and constrained credit. And so we've had three years 19 00:00:53,430 --> 00:00:58,060 Jason Pellegrino: of very suppressed listing volume activity. And in the last 20 00:00:58,060 --> 00:01:00,810 Jason Pellegrino: six months we've seen a fairly strong explosion of that 21 00:01:00,890 --> 00:01:05,160 Jason Pellegrino: listing volume activity. Price growth over the 12 months has been extraordinary 22 00:01:05,540 --> 00:01:07,390 Jason Pellegrino: in terms of going through. I think where we are 23 00:01:07,390 --> 00:01:11,850 Jason Pellegrino: right now is moving back to a much more normalized 24 00:01:12,110 --> 00:01:17,330 Jason Pellegrino: position where buyer demand supply is all starting to normalize. 25 00:01:17,500 --> 00:01:20,600 Jason Pellegrino: We're seeing this sort of contraction down to sort of more normalized 26 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:25,610 Jason Pellegrino: price growth. I think that there might be a little bit of normalization of prices in some suburbs, but 27 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,619 Jason Pellegrino: I'm not one of the big believers in a material 28 00:01:28,620 --> 00:01:31,090 Jason Pellegrino: price contraction. Overall, I think what we'll see is sort 29 00:01:31,130 --> 00:01:33,720 Jason Pellegrino: of much more subdued activity there. So really what we're heading back to, is after three years 30 00:01:35,290 --> 00:01:39,589 Jason Pellegrino: of incredible abnormality is a period of sort of a more normal property market. 31 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,810 Sean Aylmer: Are you worried that interest rates will hurt the market 32 00:01:42,810 --> 00:01:44,940 Sean Aylmer: or are you confident that... I mean, even a 2% 33 00:01:45,290 --> 00:01:47,380 Sean Aylmer: lift in the official cash rate still means people are 34 00:01:47,380 --> 00:01:51,100 Sean Aylmer: paying variable rates of 4% or 5%. It's not like 35 00:01:51,100 --> 00:01:51,760 Sean Aylmer: they're at 10%. 36 00:01:52,410 --> 00:01:55,620 Jason Pellegrino: I agree. Like we are off historic lows, and even 37 00:01:55,620 --> 00:02:01,880 Jason Pellegrino: the most hawkish interest rate forecasters are talking about those interest rates moving to maybe not historic lows, 38 00:02:02,110 --> 00:02:05,310 Jason Pellegrino: but low on a historical level. So, I think with 39 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,100 Jason Pellegrino: the cash savings that are built up in the economy 40 00:02:08,500 --> 00:02:11,380 Jason Pellegrino: and also what looks like wage growth starting to kick 41 00:02:11,380 --> 00:02:14,649 Jason Pellegrino: through, and that has a positive impact on affordability. I 42 00:02:14,650 --> 00:02:17,450 Jason Pellegrino: think that there is a lot of jitters in the 43 00:02:17,450 --> 00:02:20,790 Jason Pellegrino: market around the impact on the property market, particularly around 44 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,880 Jason Pellegrino: listing volumes that is unwarranted. What I would say is, 45 00:02:24,020 --> 00:02:26,310 Jason Pellegrino: let's go back all the way to 2000, and we've 46 00:02:26,310 --> 00:02:30,350 Jason Pellegrino: had really strong listing environments when prices have gone up, 47 00:02:30,350 --> 00:02:32,930 Jason Pellegrino: when prices have gone down. We've had really strong listings 48 00:02:32,930 --> 00:02:36,650 Jason Pellegrino: environments when mortgage rates have been north of 7%, and 49 00:02:36,650 --> 00:02:40,359 Jason Pellegrino: we've had strong listings environments with inflation higher than what 50 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:42,270 Jason Pellegrino: it is now. So I think it's quite a long 51 00:02:42,270 --> 00:02:45,100 Jason Pellegrino: boat to draw to try to get a direct correlation between 52 00:02:45,100 --> 00:02:48,919 Jason Pellegrino: price, growth and property, interest rates, and even inflation and 53 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,860 Jason Pellegrino: directly on listing volumes. It's just, there's no historical precedent 54 00:02:51,860 --> 00:02:52,500 Jason Pellegrino: for that to happen. 55 00:02:52,910 --> 00:02:56,100 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So Domain itself, the business, do you do better 56 00:02:56,100 --> 00:02:57,570 Sean Aylmer: when there are more listings? 57 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,650 Jason Pellegrino: Yeah. Our business is fundamentally driven by listing volume rather than price 58 00:03:01,710 --> 00:03:05,050 Jason Pellegrino: or interest rates or the like. So I think through the last couple 59 00:03:05,050 --> 00:03:08,329 Jason Pellegrino: of years when listing turnover moved well below, the sort 60 00:03:08,330 --> 00:03:12,150 Jason Pellegrino: of average turnover rate is around about 5%, and we saw 61 00:03:12,150 --> 00:03:16,560 Jason Pellegrino: that contract to 4% and below through COVID. Right now it's 62 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,510 Jason Pellegrino: tracking above 5% and a lot of that is catch 63 00:03:19,510 --> 00:03:22,110 Jason Pellegrino: up. There were many listings that were paused or stopped 64 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,850 Jason Pellegrino: during the COVID period that actually have to come to 65 00:03:24,850 --> 00:03:28,360 Jason Pellegrino: market. You've got to remember that most listing transactions in 66 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,130 Jason Pellegrino: the country are driven by demographics, it's birth, death, marriages, 67 00:03:31,130 --> 00:03:35,100 Jason Pellegrino: divorces. It's people who are choosing to find a new 68 00:03:35,100 --> 00:03:38,660 Jason Pellegrino: home that better matches their needs. They're not driven an 69 00:03:38,970 --> 00:03:43,660 Jason Pellegrino: ROI or an incentive or a return level. Most transactions 70 00:03:43,660 --> 00:03:44,660 Jason Pellegrino: are home purchases. 71 00:03:45,090 --> 00:03:47,010 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. I have never really thought of it that way. They're 72 00:03:47,010 --> 00:03:51,150 Sean Aylmer: probably in some ways less rational than a market. Well, 73 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:52,350 Sean Aylmer: I don't know whether you know what I mean, but 74 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,880 Sean Aylmer: people are making decisions outside financial decisions when it comes 75 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:57,550 Sean Aylmer: to houses. 76 00:03:58,120 --> 00:03:59,860 Jason Pellegrino: Well, the financial decisions might get to the edge of 77 00:03:59,860 --> 00:04:02,390 Jason Pellegrino: that. So I like to talk about the young couple 78 00:04:02,390 --> 00:04:04,530 Jason Pellegrino: with one child with a second one on the way,, 79 00:04:04,850 --> 00:04:07,420 Jason Pellegrino: living in a two bedroom apartment. The reason they are 80 00:04:07,420 --> 00:04:09,770 Jason Pellegrino: after a new property is they need more space for 81 00:04:09,770 --> 00:04:12,880 Jason Pellegrino: the new child. I think the financial market situations prices 82 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:17,150 Jason Pellegrino: might then decide whether it's a three bedroom townhouse in suburb A 83 00:04:17,150 --> 00:04:19,420 Jason Pellegrino: or suburb B, but they still need the extra space. And so 84 00:04:19,900 --> 00:04:22,870 Jason Pellegrino: the listing transaction does happen. What happened in COVID is 85 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,750 Jason Pellegrino: maybe with job security concerns that decision was put on 86 00:04:26,750 --> 00:04:30,260 Jason Pellegrino: pause. But you know, now that job security is more 87 00:04:30,270 --> 00:04:33,779 Jason Pellegrino: certain, then they still need to find extra space. The 88 00:04:33,779 --> 00:04:36,410 Jason Pellegrino: other piece to consider, Sean, is that a majority of transactions 89 00:04:36,410 --> 00:04:38,870 Jason Pellegrino: are change transactions. So someone has to sell in order 90 00:04:38,870 --> 00:04:40,550 Jason Pellegrino: to buy. And this is where I think we get 91 00:04:40,550 --> 00:04:43,480 Jason Pellegrino: caught up on price movements driving listing volumes. Is if 92 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,680 Jason Pellegrino: prices are increasing, yes, the new house is more expensive, 93 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:47,890 Jason Pellegrino: but you're getting a better deal on the house you're 94 00:04:47,890 --> 00:04:49,390 Jason Pellegrino: selling. And the same on the way down. 95 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,880 Sean Aylmer: Yep. Absolutely. I mean, I'm a big fan of Domain and have 96 00:04:54,130 --> 00:04:56,029 Sean Aylmer: a sort of a history with Domain and have used 97 00:04:56,029 --> 00:05:00,020 Sean Aylmer: it regularly. I would only ever use the app nowadays, 98 00:05:00,020 --> 00:05:03,110 Sean Aylmer: and maybe the website, primarily the app. You still have 99 00:05:03,110 --> 00:05:06,469 Sean Aylmer: print components, lift outs in the Sydney Morning Herald and 100 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,539 Sean Aylmer: the Age, and also a relationship with a Financial Review 101 00:05:09,540 --> 00:05:11,070 Sean Aylmer: if I'm not mistaken there. 102 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:11,910 Jason Pellegrino: Correct. Yep. 103 00:05:12,190 --> 00:05:15,130 Sean Aylmer: How important is that print element, and how do people 104 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,619 Sean Aylmer: look for... Do people still look for print ads? 105 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,730 Jason Pellegrino: So print is a really important strategy for passive house 106 00:05:22,730 --> 00:05:26,460 Jason Pellegrino: buyers. So you would use the app to keep abreast 107 00:05:26,460 --> 00:05:28,140 Jason Pellegrino: of the market. And you'd also use the app when you were 108 00:05:28,140 --> 00:05:30,870 Jason Pellegrino: actively looking for a property to purchase. And, the app 109 00:05:30,870 --> 00:05:34,089 Jason Pellegrino: is an incredibly efficient way for vendors to find buyers who are 110 00:05:34,089 --> 00:05:38,099 Jason Pellegrino: actively searching for a property like theirs. For certain properties 111 00:05:38,100 --> 00:05:42,130 Jason Pellegrino: within the market and particularly premium, super premium lifestyle to 112 00:05:42,130 --> 00:05:45,870 Jason Pellegrino: all properties. And so really you are talking about inner 113 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,790 Jason Pellegrino: Sydney Eastern suburb, low and north shore. (Borindars) , Stonnington, 114 00:05:50,790 --> 00:05:55,990 Jason Pellegrino: Bayside and Melbourne, Sunshine Coast, Gold Coast, where actually there 115 00:05:55,990 --> 00:05:58,130 Jason Pellegrino: is another segment of buyer, which I call the passive 116 00:05:58,130 --> 00:06:01,710 Jason Pellegrino: buyer. Is someone who's not actively searching, but might come 117 00:06:01,710 --> 00:06:03,690 Jason Pellegrino: across a property and be interested in the lifestyle aspects 118 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,479 Jason Pellegrino: of it. Print is actually really a powerful tool for 119 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,140 Jason Pellegrino: driving passive buyer inquiry into that. So if you have 120 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:16,660 Jason Pellegrino: a multimillion dollar house, then print becomes a powerful tool 121 00:06:16,660 --> 00:06:19,560 Jason Pellegrino: to expanding the pool of potential buyers. And that's where 122 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,140 Jason Pellegrino: we are. So we've contracted our print operations down to the 123 00:06:23,140 --> 00:06:26,020 Jason Pellegrino: most premium suburbs across the country, and into the most 124 00:06:26,020 --> 00:06:28,700 Jason Pellegrino: premium newsprint circulations in the country. 125 00:06:29,020 --> 00:06:31,420 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Stay with me, Jason, we'll be back in a 126 00:06:31,420 --> 00:06:39,539 Sean Aylmer: minute. My guess this morning is Domain CEO, Jason Pellegrino. 127 00:06:39,860 --> 00:06:42,790 Sean Aylmer: Domain last year or the second half of last calendar 128 00:06:42,790 --> 00:06:44,760 Sean Aylmer: year, you had a big jump in revenue. Also a 129 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,130 Sean Aylmer: big jump in costs. I presume that sort of goes 130 00:06:47,130 --> 00:06:48,730 Sean Aylmer: hand in hand to some extent. 131 00:06:49,339 --> 00:06:51,350 Jason Pellegrino: Yeah, there's an element of that cost base which we 132 00:06:51,350 --> 00:06:54,560 Jason Pellegrino: call revenue related costs. So a great example being, in 133 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,130 Jason Pellegrino: the comparable period, we paused a substantial proportion about print 134 00:06:58,130 --> 00:07:02,159 Jason Pellegrino: activity because there was COVID restrictions and lockdowns. What's happened 135 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,300 Jason Pellegrino: as we've come back is our print revenues up 72%. But you know, 136 00:07:05,910 --> 00:07:07,480 Jason Pellegrino: a lot of that is because we can actually print 137 00:07:07,810 --> 00:07:10,640 Jason Pellegrino: those magazines. But along with printing those magazines comes costs. 138 00:07:11,020 --> 00:07:14,380 Jason Pellegrino: So overall, what I'm really, really pleased with is, we've 139 00:07:14,380 --> 00:07:17,930 Jason Pellegrino: materially increased our EBITDA margin, which means we've moved our 140 00:07:18,100 --> 00:07:22,680 Jason Pellegrino: revenue growth at sort of 29% overall. We've actually driven 141 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,850 Jason Pellegrino: our EBITDA number on an underlying basis at 53%. 142 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:31,390 Sean Aylmer: Everyone likes pretax earnings. That's kind of what investors are pricing off primarily. 143 00:07:31,620 --> 00:07:34,950 Sean Aylmer: What about the next few months? Things like elections and 144 00:07:35,010 --> 00:07:36,590 Sean Aylmer: that? Does that hurt the property market? 145 00:07:36,860 --> 00:07:40,760 Jason Pellegrino: So historically, elections have had a mixed bag of results 146 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,220 Jason Pellegrino: against the property market. I think we're a little bit 147 00:07:44,220 --> 00:07:47,580 Jason Pellegrino: scarred by the last election campaign. Where it had a 148 00:07:48,110 --> 00:07:50,960 Jason Pellegrino: dramatic effect on listing volumes and cause. So a good 149 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:52,910 Jason Pellegrino: example is in that quarter, when we did have the 150 00:07:52,910 --> 00:07:58,250 Jason Pellegrino: election campaign listing volumes were as impacted as the comparable 151 00:07:58,250 --> 00:08:00,989 Jason Pellegrino: quarter, the follow year, when COVID first hit and everyone 152 00:08:00,990 --> 00:08:03,480 Jason Pellegrino: was constrained at their house. Just gives you an idea of 153 00:08:03,530 --> 00:08:06,550 Jason Pellegrino: the impact. Why did that happen? Wasn't just because of 154 00:08:06,550 --> 00:08:10,140 Jason Pellegrino: the election and the date and you losing the Saturday. It was because there were 155 00:08:10,510 --> 00:08:13,970 Jason Pellegrino: some incredibly substantive and complex property policies taking for that 156 00:08:13,970 --> 00:08:17,960 Jason Pellegrino: election. Particularly around negative gearing. What I look at this 157 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,720 Jason Pellegrino: cycle, it's much more like cycles of two or three 158 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,860 Jason Pellegrino: elections ago, where it doesn't feel like there is going 159 00:08:23,860 --> 00:08:28,030 Jason Pellegrino: to be substantive, property related policies taking to the election. 160 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,520 Jason Pellegrino: And so, yes, you'll lose that Saturday. No one's going 161 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:32,300 Jason Pellegrino: to want to take their property to auction on a 162 00:08:32,300 --> 00:08:35,790 Jason Pellegrino: Saturday or close and transact on election Saturday. They're going 163 00:08:35,790 --> 00:08:38,870 Jason Pellegrino: to be wanting their sort of democracy sausage instead. But 164 00:08:38,910 --> 00:08:42,050 Jason Pellegrino: what you won't see is people dramatically changing their plans 165 00:08:42,050 --> 00:08:44,710 Jason Pellegrino: on buying or selling their property because of the election. 166 00:08:44,710 --> 00:08:48,440 Jason Pellegrino: Because there are not really any consequential policy impacts that 167 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:49,280 Jason Pellegrino: are on the agenda. 168 00:08:49,630 --> 00:08:51,760 Sean Aylmer: Jason, you just said democracy sausage. 169 00:08:51,990 --> 00:08:52,490 Jason Pellegrino: Yes. 170 00:08:52,590 --> 00:08:54,370 Sean Aylmer: That is a great phrase. I'm going to start using that one. 171 00:08:54,420 --> 00:08:58,980 Jason Pellegrino: I'm looking forward. We're months out. Every time this happens, 172 00:08:58,980 --> 00:09:02,130 Jason Pellegrino: I send photos of the sausage sizzle at the front of the election campaign to all of 173 00:09:03,610 --> 00:09:07,290 Jason Pellegrino: my friends from all around the world and say, " This is as good as it gets." 174 00:09:07,290 --> 00:09:13,319 Sean Aylmer: Staying in the political spectrum, stamp duty, something that you've spoken about. Undoubtedly, I 175 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,370 Sean Aylmer: mean it's a state tax, it's inefficient, discourages people from 176 00:09:16,370 --> 00:09:20,000 Sean Aylmer: buying and selling property. Now, Dominic Perrottet, when he was 177 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,760 Sean Aylmer: treasurer, put forward a reform, which would change the way 178 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,530 Sean Aylmer: stamp duties levied in New South Wales. Not quite replacing 179 00:09:27,530 --> 00:09:29,730 Sean Aylmer: it, but actually people would have an option of paying 180 00:09:29,730 --> 00:09:33,240 Sean Aylmer: a yearly tax or lump sum. Do you think we're 181 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:34,280 Sean Aylmer: getting anywhere with that? 182 00:09:34,630 --> 00:09:37,729 Jason Pellegrino: I would take it a step higher. I think it's beyond 183 00:09:37,730 --> 00:09:41,630 Jason Pellegrino: reasonable doubt that we need deeply substantive tax reform at 184 00:09:41,630 --> 00:09:45,429 Jason Pellegrino: an entire economy level. And the barrier that's sitting in the way of that 185 00:09:45,429 --> 00:09:49,520 Jason Pellegrino: is political will. There is no logical economic argument that 186 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:51,839 Jason Pellegrino: we shouldn't be doing this. And the political will to 187 00:09:52,059 --> 00:09:54,090 Jason Pellegrino: undertake that is what's sitting in the way. And I 188 00:09:54,090 --> 00:09:56,459 Jason Pellegrino: think there's a lot of commentary. You know, Sean, there's a lot of people 189 00:09:56,540 --> 00:09:59,660 Jason Pellegrino: in your podcast that you talk to it. The AFR is talking 190 00:09:59,940 --> 00:10:02,120 Jason Pellegrino: to and editorializing around it. At the top of the 191 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,720 Jason Pellegrino: list on tax reform in every productivity commission review that's 192 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,260 Jason Pellegrino: been done on everyone's agenda is stamp duty. And again, 193 00:10:09,260 --> 00:10:14,480 Jason Pellegrino: it's political will. I applaud Dominic Perrottet's political will ability 194 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,209 Jason Pellegrino: to stand forward and saying, this is worth the political 195 00:10:17,210 --> 00:10:21,240 Jason Pellegrino: capital to run a campaign, to actually convince the electorate 196 00:10:21,309 --> 00:10:23,610 Jason Pellegrino: that this is absolutely the right thing to do for the 197 00:10:23,610 --> 00:10:27,590 Jason Pellegrino: future. I hope that gets sustained. But my sense is 198 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,309 Jason Pellegrino: it needs to be supported on a federal level with 199 00:10:30,700 --> 00:10:32,080 Jason Pellegrino: deep sense of political will that will actually undertake broad based tax reform. 200 00:10:34,470 --> 00:10:36,949 Sean Aylmer: Yes. You mentioned the last election. Now I don't think 201 00:10:36,950 --> 00:10:39,429 Sean Aylmer: the Labor Party will go near tax reform anytime soon. 202 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,500 Sean Aylmer: Because they've tried that last election and lost. One thing 203 00:10:42,500 --> 00:10:45,770 Sean Aylmer: about stamp duty, it's a state tax, which is unpopular 204 00:10:46,090 --> 00:10:50,940 Sean Aylmer: with the populous. That's kind of a different situation than 205 00:10:50,970 --> 00:10:56,210 Sean Aylmer: reforming GST or reducing Capital Gain Tax concessions and things 206 00:10:56,340 --> 00:10:58,660 Sean Aylmer: like that. Do you think just picking off a little 207 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,120 Sean Aylmer: bit like stamp duty on housing could be done? 208 00:11:02,540 --> 00:11:04,760 Jason Pellegrino: Yeah, it could be. I think there's two things that 209 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,010 Jason Pellegrino: get in the way of it. Firstly, I think, yes, 210 00:11:07,010 --> 00:11:09,480 Jason Pellegrino: it's absolutely a state based tax, but one of the 211 00:11:09,670 --> 00:11:13,330 Jason Pellegrino: most complex and sort of unavoidable elements of tax reformers is 212 00:11:13,330 --> 00:11:16,679 Jason Pellegrino: the interaction between Federal and State based regimes. In that 213 00:11:16,750 --> 00:11:21,140 Jason Pellegrino: I don't think it's a possibility for a state to 214 00:11:21,140 --> 00:11:25,480 Jason Pellegrino: really go out on a limb and unilaterally impact materially 215 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,850 Jason Pellegrino: on stamp duty without some form of Federal coordination on that. I think 216 00:11:29,450 --> 00:11:32,550 Jason Pellegrino: that makes it... Well, you're upping the degree of difficulty 217 00:11:32,550 --> 00:11:35,920 Jason Pellegrino: significantly to do that. The second thing is, you are 218 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,500 Jason Pellegrino: saying yes, it's an unpopular tax, but it's an UN tax 219 00:11:38,500 --> 00:11:42,040 Jason Pellegrino: with some of the population. There are certain voters out 220 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,290 Jason Pellegrino: there. You know, for example, if you're sitting on a property that 221 00:11:44,290 --> 00:11:47,339 Jason Pellegrino: you've held for many, many years, it is a concern, 222 00:11:47,340 --> 00:11:50,559 Jason Pellegrino: I would say. Now is that concern justified? Probably not, but 223 00:11:51,050 --> 00:11:55,080 Jason Pellegrino: it is a fertile ground for negative based political attacks 224 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:59,080 Jason Pellegrino: to go through. So I think that it's not as easy, politically, 225 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:00,770 Jason Pellegrino: to actually bring that to life as what you would 226 00:12:00,770 --> 00:12:04,750 Jason Pellegrino: think. And so that's why I think the actual delivering 227 00:12:04,750 --> 00:12:07,220 Jason Pellegrino: of this does need the will at a Federal and 228 00:12:07,220 --> 00:12:09,559 Jason Pellegrino: State level to bring this off. The final thing I'd 229 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:11,730 Jason Pellegrino: say, Sean, is we don't have a choice. I just 230 00:12:11,730 --> 00:12:15,070 Jason Pellegrino: hope we get to that position of will. Well before 231 00:12:15,410 --> 00:12:19,250 Jason Pellegrino: economic activity and social consequences are damaged so much that 232 00:12:19,250 --> 00:12:21,740 Jason Pellegrino: people are forced to make the changes. I think right 233 00:12:21,740 --> 00:12:24,300 Jason Pellegrino: now we can benefit from those changes. But if we 234 00:12:24,300 --> 00:12:27,250 Jason Pellegrino: choose not to, very much like the climate, we'll be 235 00:12:27,250 --> 00:12:28,670 Jason Pellegrino: forced to do it. I hope we get to it 236 00:12:29,030 --> 00:12:31,520 Jason Pellegrino: when it's a nice to do rather than a must do. 237 00:12:31,890 --> 00:12:34,240 Sean Aylmer: Yep. Jason, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 238 00:12:34,700 --> 00:12:35,609 Jason Pellegrino: No. Thank you for your time. 239 00:12:36,020 --> 00:12:40,069 Sean Aylmer: That was Domain CEO, Jason Pellegrino. This is the Fear and Greed Daily 240 00:12:40,070 --> 00:12:42,350 Sean Aylmer: Interview. Join me every morning for the full Fear and 241 00:12:42,350 --> 00:12:44,640 Sean Aylmer: Greed podcast with all the business news you need to 242 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:46,910 Sean Aylmer: know. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.