Speaker 1: I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM. As
Speaker 1: the year winds to an end, kids with autism and
Speaker 1: developmental delay face an uncertain future. Back in August, the
Speaker 1: government revealed plans to kick them off the NDIS, announcing
Speaker 1: a new scheme called Thriving Kids, set to kick off
Speaker 1: next year. The Health Minister Mark Butler said it would
Speaker 1: give kids better support and go some way to curbing
Speaker 1: the billions being spent on the NDAs. But months on
Speaker 1: the government still hasn't reached to deal with the states
Speaker 1: on how the scheme will be funded, despite threatening to
Speaker 1: withhold their hospital funding until they agree. Today journalist Rick
Speaker 1: Morton on the fight over the future of Thriving Kids
Speaker 1: and what the government is really doing to the NDAs.
Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, November twelfth. So Rick, on Friday, state and
Speaker 1: territory disability ministers, they met with the federal NDAs minister,
Speaker 1: Jenny McAllister. But before that meeting even happened, things seemed
Speaker 1: to be going off the rails. State ministers were threatening
Speaker 1: to boycott the meeting. So tell me what was going on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was fascinating because the tension was so high
Speaker 2: before this meeting. Ever, even got off the ground, the
Speaker 2: states were extremely frustrated, and I think quite rightly that
Speaker 2: they had been given just two minutes each on the
Speaker 2: agenda to speak about the future of the NDAs foundational
Speaker 2: supports in particular, they wanted at least ten minutes. And
Speaker 2: this stuff is like some of the most complicated state
Speaker 2: on federal government interaction we have in the NDAAs, and
Speaker 2: it's been going on for ten years, and they were
Speaker 2: reduced to two minutes.
Speaker 3: After announcing a new program to divert children with autism
Speaker 3: from the National Disability Insurance Scheme, the NDIS, Minister Mark
Speaker 3: Butler has today shocked state governments with a demand that
Speaker 3: they match the federal government's two billion dollars of funding
Speaker 3: for the program. Mister Butler wants the Thriving Kids Scheme
Speaker 3: to be rolled out across the country from twenty twenty
Speaker 3: seven to help cut the growth and expense of the NDIS.
Speaker 2: And so they kind of had a show down and
Speaker 2: said we're not going to do it. So this is
Speaker 2: an insult. And in the end the Satan territory ministers
Speaker 2: did get more time, but it kind of set the
Speaker 2: tone for what was to come, because this is not
Speaker 2: really a consultation. It never has been from the start.
Speaker 2: It is, as far as I can tell, unprecedented, and.
Speaker 1: It doesn't bode well for the meeting itself. So tell
Speaker 1: me what happened when it did go ahead.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we know the answer basically not well. The
Speaker 2: state and the federal government, to give some context, they're
Speaker 2: attempting to come to an agreement on what is called
Speaker 2: thriving kids.
Speaker 4: We should have an alternative system in place for those
Speaker 4: parents and for those kids, and that's what I committed
Speaker 4: to building today, a system to support those children to thrive.
Speaker 2: I think it's this new program that the Comwealth government
Speaker 2: has itself committed to and wants the state and territory
Speaker 2: governments to commit to, which is about essentially curbing growth
Speaker 2: in the NDAs blay, pushing more responsibilities back onto the states,
Speaker 2: particularly when it comes to children with what the Health
Speaker 2: Minister mrket but the CALLD mild and moderate autism, which
Speaker 2: isn't a real diagnostic criteria, and also kids with developmental delay.
Speaker 4: Exception, and that is kids with developmental delay and autism,
Speaker 4: particularly at mild to moderate levels, so not levels.
Speaker 2: And so they're worried about the cost of the NDAs,
Speaker 2: and they want this kind of new service system outside
Speaker 2: of the NDAs for much more low level, less intensive support.
Speaker 2: But of course that means the states kid getting more
Speaker 2: money in addition to the contributions they already make to
Speaker 2: the NDAs, which are all in national agreements, right, and
Speaker 2: so we never get to see exactly what happens inside
Speaker 2: these things. Where there was one state source was reported
Speaker 2: in the media is saying that it was a complete disaster.
Speaker 2: I'm not surprised.
Speaker 5: This is what a source from one of the state
Speaker 5: governments said to me yesterday, quote, the meeting was a
Speaker 5: complete disaster. Despite pushing for a robust discussion, we are
Speaker 5: no clearer on what foundational supports are or thriving kids are.
Speaker 2: The Queensland Premier David Krypsofouley said that the federal government
Speaker 2: was playing a cruel game, and I've heard similar things
Speaker 2: from my contacts in the various state and territory governments
Speaker 2: when I've been reported on this in the past, where
Speaker 2: they've been railroaded into this position, not given any detail
Speaker 2: or even the proper financial metrics on which this decision
Speaker 2: has been based. Because the NBAS doesn't want to share
Speaker 2: or the agency I should say that runs the National
Speaker 2: Disability Insurance Scheme doesn't want to give away exactly what
Speaker 2: its plans are, either to the States or particularly to
Speaker 2: parents of children who are on the NDIS because they
Speaker 2: think it will scare people, probably for a reason. And
Speaker 2: so we have had this mess of a situation which
Speaker 2: is cloaked in secrecy, including at the official technically the
Speaker 2: official decision making body of the meeting of disability ministers
Speaker 2: across the country.
Speaker 1: And so when someone like David Christoph fully or you know,
Speaker 1: another state leader calls this a cruel game, are they
Speaker 1: referring to this idea there that the federal government is
Speaker 1: kind of forcing their hand.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think what they're worried about. And this
Speaker 2: goes back to the original agreements where the states were
Speaker 2: allowed by the then labor government to get out of
Speaker 2: the provision of services in return for them funding their
Speaker 2: share of the NDIS. And of course the States took
Speaker 2: that as a green light to vacate the field, and
Speaker 2: they did that. And so now the states are saying
Speaker 2: that we've been asked to make this cruel decision where
Speaker 2: we haven't given the information. The Commonwealth wants to cut
Speaker 2: costs in the NDIS, but it wants to shift that
Speaker 2: cost back to the States. The funding ask in this
Speaker 2: case was linked directly by their Prime Minister Anthony Albanesi
Speaker 2: to money that the States needed for hospitals, and so
Speaker 2: the hospital agreement was due for renegotiation and the FEDS
Speaker 2: essentially is sent to the States, you're not going to
Speaker 2: get whatever you're asking for until you come to an
Speaker 2: agreement on foundational supports is what they're calling the supports
Speaker 2: outside of the NBAS. So you either kick in for
Speaker 2: both or you don't get the hospital funding. And they
Speaker 2: didn't get the hospital funding. They got a one year
Speaker 2: extension which was a rollover of a really bad system
Speaker 2: that has not been updated for the massive change in
Speaker 2: the way we do health in this country. And then
Speaker 2: of course they were not told about Thriving Kids, and
Speaker 2: so Mark Butler, the Health Minister, just comes out one
Speaker 2: day and says, so Comwealth has allocated two billion dollars
Speaker 2: to a program called Thriving Kids, which is sort of
Speaker 2: being trialed but not very well and not very transparently
Speaker 2: within the National Disability Insurance Scheme. Kicking the money or
Speaker 2: we're not going to give you a hospital funding, and
Speaker 2: the States are like, hang on, you're asking us to
Speaker 2: sign a blank check, because how much are you askingess
Speaker 2: to pay? What is it going to do? What does
Speaker 2: this thing look like? They have know any what it
Speaker 2: actually if? No one knows what thriving kids is. And
Speaker 2: I think the ultimate problem here is that they're being
Speaker 2: asked to make decisions inside a black box, and we're
Speaker 2: being asked to interpret that, including the families who rely
Speaker 2: on support wherever it's provided for their children.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's clear it seems that the federal government
Speaker 1: is going into these negotiations in a pretty heavy way.
Speaker 1: They're trying to get the states to agree to this
Speaker 1: program that they haven't really been given any say on,
Speaker 1: they don't know anything about. And then on top of that,
Speaker 1: there's this kind of idea that their hospital fund big
Speaker 1: is tied into this whole thing. So, given that, how
Speaker 1: did those negotiations go? Has anything actually been agreed on
Speaker 1: when it comes to thriving Kids at this point?
Speaker 2: No, there is no final agreement. You know, they say,
Speaker 2: of course they'll keep working on it, but there's nothing
Speaker 2: for them to agree on yet. And I think the
Speaker 2: real interesting thing here is that this isn't even the
Speaker 2: disability the disility Minister's meaning is not the forum where
Speaker 2: this is going to get agreed because it was taken
Speaker 2: and explicitly tied to health. Where Mark Butler is the
Speaker 2: Minister for Health and Disability in Australia, He's the senior
Speaker 2: cabinet minister, not Jenny McAllister. As good as she is,
Speaker 2: she's holding this meeting with ministers. She doesn't have the
Speaker 2: authority to make the decision and they don't have the
Speaker 2: information to agree on it.
Speaker 5: We are hopeful of reaching agreement with the States and
Speaker 5: territories by the end of the year.
Speaker 2: It's a complex agreement.
Speaker 5: Of course, what are you going to do?
Speaker 2: Well, our intention is to come to an agreement you
Speaker 2: just mentioned and so is it any wonder that she
Speaker 2: kind of comes out afterwards and says that she's aiming
Speaker 2: for an agreement by the end of this year, but
Speaker 2: wouldn't actually say on whether that is going to happen
Speaker 2: and what the consequences will be at the states don't.
Speaker 1: Sign coming up? Why children are already being kicked off
Speaker 1: the ndis can we come back to thriving kids? Because
Speaker 1: as you've said, there doesn't seem to be much information
Speaker 1: at all about the program and how it would work.
Speaker 1: But it was a while ago that it was announced.
Speaker 1: It was August, and it is supposed to be up
Speaker 1: and running, as you've said.
Speaker 2: Next year.
Speaker 1: So I mean, what is likely to sort of happen
Speaker 1: when it's supposed to kick in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Thriving Kids. It's funny because we know
Speaker 2: what Thriving Kids is because it's an existing program, right.
Speaker 2: It's essentially a referral service with a light touch parental
Speaker 2: education element. They kind of want to teach families how
Speaker 2: to be with their own children who have developmental delays
Speaker 2: or have some social or behavioral impairments that are not severe.
Speaker 2: And the way they do that is by linking to
Speaker 2: community services, whether it's through hospitals or health settings, community health,
Speaker 2: et cetera. And it kind of sounds fine on the surface,
Speaker 2: but is this a program that can be rolled out nationally?
Speaker 2: Is it a program that works for the types of
Speaker 2: children that they envisage to move off the nbas? So
Speaker 2: how are they going to look at people who have
Speaker 2: been long been eligible for the nbas who need support?
Speaker 2: How do they decide to remove them from the scheme?
Speaker 2: And that is what Mark Butler said will happen from
Speaker 2: July twenty twenty seven. That will change the eligibility.
Speaker 4: Access and eligibility changes will be made to do that
Speaker 4: once the Thriving Kids program is fully rolled out.
Speaker 2: And send them to what. I don't personally think a
Speaker 2: light touch program like Thriving Kids is going to be
Speaker 2: appropriate for all of the people that they envisage removing
Speaker 2: from the scheme. And the only way they save the
Speaker 2: money they need to save is by removing a lot
Speaker 2: of those children from the scheme. And so we're about
Speaker 2: seven months away from the start of the program officially,
Speaker 2: it's meant to start in July next year, with the
Speaker 2: ability changes a year later, and there is so much
Speaker 2: that needs to be worked out before we getting everything
Speaker 2: into place. And bearing in mind that we were meant
Speaker 2: to have foundational supports in place the first of July
Speaker 2: this year and they were not ready.
Speaker 1: And record sounds like from what you've been saying that
Speaker 1: there's little doubt that as this particular process unfolds, there
Speaker 1: is going to be children who need help, who are
Speaker 1: going to fall through the cracks.
Speaker 2: I mean, I personally think we're already seen it. The
Speaker 2: Health Minister, Mark Butler said there will be no children
Speaker 2: removed from the scheme before Thriving Kids comes into place,
Speaker 2: except and this was his statement, except as part of
Speaker 2: the usual assessment and reassessment process, which has been ongoing
Speaker 2: and has always been ongoing. But what we've seen in
Speaker 2: the last year is that the government has essentially tripled
Speaker 2: the budget for the Eligibility and Access Team within the
Speaker 2: National Disability Insurance Agency, and they've also tried to mess
Speaker 2: around with their guidelines and internal policies around how those
Speaker 2: eligibility reassessments are done. And we've seen reports from people
Speaker 2: who are on the front line of children just being removed,
Speaker 2: people without autism just being kicked off, people with long term, permanent,
Speaker 2: in some cases terminal diagnoses things like modern neurone disease
Speaker 2: and multiple sclerosis being removed with very little indication as
Speaker 2: to why.
Speaker 1: And why is it rick What do you think is
Speaker 1: really behind the government's changes to who is eligible for
Speaker 1: the NDAs?
Speaker 2: So essentially what they're saying is, well, we think participants
Speaker 2: are brought in the scheme, what they really want to
Speaker 2: be saying, or I think the truthful answer is that
Speaker 2: we are designed the scheme with far too much choice
Speaker 2: and control, which is what the original promise was. It
Speaker 2: will sold us a silver bullet, right, Everyone gets choice
Speaker 2: and control. Everyone can spend the money how they want
Speaker 2: in a way that helps them live in the community.
Speaker 2: And that's what the legislation from twenty thirteen aloud. And
Speaker 2: the government has changed its mind, and they're allowed to
Speaker 2: change their mind. They're at the government, but they're definitely
Speaker 2: not being honest about it. And I think that is
Speaker 2: the thing that drives me and particularly the advocates and
Speaker 2: people who use the system absolutely spared. You know, fraud
Speaker 2: and wrouting is a problem in every government program. It's
Speaker 2: a big problem in the Indias, it's a big problem
Speaker 2: in age care. It's often at the level of the provider.
Speaker 2: And we've seen all these examples over and over again
Speaker 2: of the National Disability Insurance Scheme, quality and Safeguard's Commission
Speaker 2: failing to do its job properly, failing to regulate the sector.
Speaker 2: Whenever it tries to crack down on that, or say
Speaker 2: that they're cracking down on that, what they end up
Speaker 2: doing is removing the ability of people who have disabilities
Speaker 2: who use the scheme to use the scheme as they're
Speaker 2: initially promised. And I genuinely think that's quite appalling.
Speaker 1: Well, Rick, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2: Thanks for it, It's always a pleasure.
Speaker 1: Also in the news, only one in five millennials voted
Speaker 1: for the Coalition at the last federal election, a new
Speaker 1: study has revealed. The research, known as the Australian Election Study,
Speaker 1: is an authoritative study conducted by the A and U
Speaker 1: after every election since nineteen eighty seven. Results show that
Speaker 1: young voters viewed climate change as a serious threat. Despite that,
Speaker 1: the Coalition looks set to scrap their support for that
Speaker 1: zero this week and the trial of Alan Jones will
Speaker 1: begin next August and could last up to four months,
Speaker 1: with one hundred witnesses expected to appear. A magistrate has
Speaker 1: announced the disgraced former broadcaster faces twenty five indecent assault
Speaker 1: charges and two sexual touching charges against nine complainants. The
Speaker 1: assaults are alleged to have taken place at the Opera House,
Speaker 1: a restaurant of his various homes and formal workplaces. Alan
Speaker 1: Jones denies all the allegations. I'm Ruby Jones. This is
Speaker 1: seven am. Thanks for listening.