WEBVTT - The kids being kicked off the NDIS

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM. As

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<v Speaker 1>the year winds to an end, kids with autism and

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<v Speaker 1>developmental delay face an uncertain future. Back in August, the

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<v Speaker 1>government revealed plans to kick them off the NDIS, announcing

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<v Speaker 1>a new scheme called Thriving Kids, set to kick off

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<v Speaker 1>next year. The Health Minister Mark Butler said it would

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<v Speaker 1>give kids better support and go some way to curbing

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<v Speaker 1>the billions being spent on the NDAs. But months on

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<v Speaker 1>the government still hasn't reached to deal with the states

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<v Speaker 1>on how the scheme will be funded, despite threatening to

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<v Speaker 1>withhold their hospital funding until they agree. Today journalist Rick

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<v Speaker 1>Morton on the fight over the future of Thriving Kids

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<v Speaker 1>and what the government is really doing to the NDAs.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Wednesday, November twelfth. So Rick, on Friday, state and

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<v Speaker 1>territory disability ministers, they met with the federal NDAs minister,

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<v Speaker 1>Jenny McAllister. But before that meeting even happened, things seemed

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<v Speaker 1>to be going off the rails. State ministers were threatening

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<v Speaker 1>to boycott the meeting. So tell me what was going on.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was fascinating because the tension was so high

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<v Speaker 2>before this meeting. Ever, even got off the ground, the

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<v Speaker 2>states were extremely frustrated, and I think quite rightly that

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<v Speaker 2>they had been given just two minutes each on the

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<v Speaker 2>agenda to speak about the future of the NDAs foundational

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<v Speaker 2>supports in particular, they wanted at least ten minutes. And

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<v Speaker 2>this stuff is like some of the most complicated state

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<v Speaker 2>on federal government interaction we have in the NDAAs, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's been going on for ten years, and they were

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<v Speaker 2>reduced to two minutes.

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<v Speaker 3>After announcing a new program to divert children with autism

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<v Speaker 3>from the National Disability Insurance Scheme, the NDIS, Minister Mark

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<v Speaker 3>Butler has today shocked state governments with a demand that

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<v Speaker 3>they match the federal government's two billion dollars of funding

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<v Speaker 3>for the program. Mister Butler wants the Thriving Kids Scheme

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<v Speaker 3>to be rolled out across the country from twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 3>seven to help cut the growth and expense of the NDIS.

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<v Speaker 2>And so they kind of had a show down and

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<v Speaker 2>said we're not going to do it. So this is

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<v Speaker 2>an insult. And in the end the Satan territory ministers

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<v Speaker 2>did get more time, but it kind of set the

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<v Speaker 2>tone for what was to come, because this is not

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<v Speaker 2>really a consultation. It never has been from the start.

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<v Speaker 2>It is, as far as I can tell, unprecedented, and.

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<v Speaker 1>It doesn't bode well for the meeting itself. So tell

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<v Speaker 1>me what happened when it did go ahead.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, we know the answer basically not well. The

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<v Speaker 2>state and the federal government, to give some context, they're

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<v Speaker 2>attempting to come to an agreement on what is called

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<v Speaker 2>thriving kids.

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<v Speaker 4>We should have an alternative system in place for those

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<v Speaker 4>parents and for those kids, and that's what I committed

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<v Speaker 4>to building today, a system to support those children to thrive.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's this new program that the Comwealth government

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<v Speaker 2>has itself committed to and wants the state and territory

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<v Speaker 2>governments to commit to, which is about essentially curbing growth

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<v Speaker 2>in the NDAs blay, pushing more responsibilities back onto the states,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly when it comes to children with what the Health

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<v Speaker 2>Minister mrket but the CALLD mild and moderate autism, which

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<v Speaker 2>isn't a real diagnostic criteria, and also kids with developmental delay.

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<v Speaker 4>Exception, and that is kids with developmental delay and autism,

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<v Speaker 4>particularly at mild to moderate levels, so not levels.

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<v Speaker 2>And so they're worried about the cost of the NDAs,

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<v Speaker 2>and they want this kind of new service system outside

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<v Speaker 2>of the NDAs for much more low level, less intensive support.

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<v Speaker 2>But of course that means the states kid getting more

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<v Speaker 2>money in addition to the contributions they already make to

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<v Speaker 2>the NDAs, which are all in national agreements, right, and

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<v Speaker 2>so we never get to see exactly what happens inside

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<v Speaker 2>these things. Where there was one state source was reported

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<v Speaker 2>in the media is saying that it was a complete disaster.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not surprised.

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<v Speaker 5>This is what a source from one of the state

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<v Speaker 5>governments said to me yesterday, quote, the meeting was a

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<v Speaker 5>complete disaster. Despite pushing for a robust discussion, we are

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<v Speaker 5>no clearer on what foundational supports are or thriving kids are.

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<v Speaker 2>The Queensland Premier David Krypsofouley said that the federal government

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<v Speaker 2>was playing a cruel game, and I've heard similar things

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<v Speaker 2>from my contacts in the various state and territory governments

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<v Speaker 2>when I've been reported on this in the past, where

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<v Speaker 2>they've been railroaded into this position, not given any detail

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<v Speaker 2>or even the proper financial metrics on which this decision

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<v Speaker 2>has been based. Because the NBAS doesn't want to share

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<v Speaker 2>or the agency I should say that runs the National

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<v Speaker 2>Disability Insurance Scheme doesn't want to give away exactly what

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<v Speaker 2>its plans are, either to the States or particularly to

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<v Speaker 2>parents of children who are on the NDIS because they

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<v Speaker 2>think it will scare people, probably for a reason. And

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<v Speaker 2>so we have had this mess of a situation which

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<v Speaker 2>is cloaked in secrecy, including at the official technically the

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<v Speaker 2>official decision making body of the meeting of disability ministers

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<v Speaker 2>across the country.

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<v Speaker 1>And so when someone like David Christoph fully or you know,

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<v Speaker 1>another state leader calls this a cruel game, are they

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<v Speaker 1>referring to this idea there that the federal government is

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<v Speaker 1>kind of forcing their hand.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I think what they're worried about. And this

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<v Speaker 2>goes back to the original agreements where the states were

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<v Speaker 2>allowed by the then labor government to get out of

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<v Speaker 2>the provision of services in return for them funding their

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<v Speaker 2>share of the NDIS. And of course the States took

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<v Speaker 2>that as a green light to vacate the field, and

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<v Speaker 2>they did that. And so now the states are saying

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<v Speaker 2>that we've been asked to make this cruel decision where

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<v Speaker 2>we haven't given the information. The Commonwealth wants to cut

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<v Speaker 2>costs in the NDIS, but it wants to shift that

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<v Speaker 2>cost back to the States. The funding ask in this

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<v Speaker 2>case was linked directly by their Prime Minister Anthony Albanesi

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<v Speaker 2>to money that the States needed for hospitals, and so

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<v Speaker 2>the hospital agreement was due for renegotiation and the FEDS

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<v Speaker 2>essentially is sent to the States, you're not going to

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<v Speaker 2>get whatever you're asking for until you come to an

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<v Speaker 2>agreement on foundational supports is what they're calling the supports

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<v Speaker 2>outside of the NBAS. So you either kick in for

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<v Speaker 2>both or you don't get the hospital funding. And they

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<v Speaker 2>didn't get the hospital funding. They got a one year

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<v Speaker 2>extension which was a rollover of a really bad system

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<v Speaker 2>that has not been updated for the massive change in

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<v Speaker 2>the way we do health in this country. And then

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<v Speaker 2>of course they were not told about Thriving Kids, and

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<v Speaker 2>so Mark Butler, the Health Minister, just comes out one

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<v Speaker 2>day and says, so Comwealth has allocated two billion dollars

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<v Speaker 2>to a program called Thriving Kids, which is sort of

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<v Speaker 2>being trialed but not very well and not very transparently

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<v Speaker 2>within the National Disability Insurance Scheme. Kicking the money or

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<v Speaker 2>we're not going to give you a hospital funding, and

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<v Speaker 2>the States are like, hang on, you're asking us to

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<v Speaker 2>sign a blank check, because how much are you askingess

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<v Speaker 2>to pay? What is it going to do? What does

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<v Speaker 2>this thing look like? They have know any what it

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<v Speaker 2>actually if? No one knows what thriving kids is. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think the ultimate problem here is that they're being

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<v Speaker 2>asked to make decisions inside a black box, and we're

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<v Speaker 2>being asked to interpret that, including the families who rely

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<v Speaker 2>on support wherever it's provided for their children.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so it's clear it seems that the federal government

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<v Speaker 1>is going into these negotiations in a pretty heavy way.

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<v Speaker 1>They're trying to get the states to agree to this

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<v Speaker 1>program that they haven't really been given any say on,

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<v Speaker 1>they don't know anything about. And then on top of that,

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<v Speaker 1>there's this kind of idea that their hospital fund big

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<v Speaker 1>is tied into this whole thing. So, given that, how

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<v Speaker 1>did those negotiations go? Has anything actually been agreed on

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<v Speaker 1>when it comes to thriving Kids at this point?

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<v Speaker 2>No, there is no final agreement. You know, they say,

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<v Speaker 2>of course they'll keep working on it, but there's nothing

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<v Speaker 2>for them to agree on yet. And I think the

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<v Speaker 2>real interesting thing here is that this isn't even the

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<v Speaker 2>disability the disility Minister's meaning is not the forum where

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<v Speaker 2>this is going to get agreed because it was taken

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<v Speaker 2>and explicitly tied to health. Where Mark Butler is the

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<v Speaker 2>Minister for Health and Disability in Australia, He's the senior

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<v Speaker 2>cabinet minister, not Jenny McAllister. As good as she is,

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<v Speaker 2>she's holding this meeting with ministers. She doesn't have the

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<v Speaker 2>authority to make the decision and they don't have the

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<v Speaker 2>information to agree on it.

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<v Speaker 5>We are hopeful of reaching agreement with the States and

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<v Speaker 5>territories by the end of the year.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a complex agreement.

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<v Speaker 5>Of course, what are you going to do?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, our intention is to come to an agreement you

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<v Speaker 2>just mentioned and so is it any wonder that she

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<v Speaker 2>kind of comes out afterwards and says that she's aiming

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<v Speaker 2>for an agreement by the end of this year, but

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't actually say on whether that is going to happen

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<v Speaker 2>and what the consequences will be at the states don't.

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<v Speaker 1>Sign coming up? Why children are already being kicked off

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<v Speaker 1>the ndis can we come back to thriving kids? Because

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<v Speaker 1>as you've said, there doesn't seem to be much information

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<v Speaker 1>at all about the program and how it would work.

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<v Speaker 1>But it was a while ago that it was announced.

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<v Speaker 1>It was August, and it is supposed to be up

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<v Speaker 1>and running, as you've said.

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<v Speaker 2>Next year.

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<v Speaker 1>So I mean, what is likely to sort of happen

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<v Speaker 1>when it's supposed to kick in.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean Thriving Kids. It's funny because we know

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<v Speaker 2>what Thriving Kids is because it's an existing program, right.

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<v Speaker 2>It's essentially a referral service with a light touch parental

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<v Speaker 2>education element. They kind of want to teach families how

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<v Speaker 2>to be with their own children who have developmental delays

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<v Speaker 2>or have some social or behavioral impairments that are not severe.

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<v Speaker 2>And the way they do that is by linking to

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<v Speaker 2>community services, whether it's through hospitals or health settings, community health,

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<v Speaker 2>et cetera. And it kind of sounds fine on the surface,

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<v Speaker 2>but is this a program that can be rolled out nationally?

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<v Speaker 2>Is it a program that works for the types of

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<v Speaker 2>children that they envisage to move off the nbas? So

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<v Speaker 2>how are they going to look at people who have

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<v Speaker 2>been long been eligible for the nbas who need support?

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<v Speaker 2>How do they decide to remove them from the scheme?

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<v Speaker 2>And that is what Mark Butler said will happen from

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<v Speaker 2>July twenty twenty seven. That will change the eligibility.

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<v Speaker 4>Access and eligibility changes will be made to do that

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<v Speaker 4>once the Thriving Kids program is fully rolled out.

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<v Speaker 2>And send them to what. I don't personally think a

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<v Speaker 2>light touch program like Thriving Kids is going to be

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<v Speaker 2>appropriate for all of the people that they envisage removing

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<v Speaker 2>from the scheme. And the only way they save the

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<v Speaker 2>money they need to save is by removing a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of those children from the scheme. And so we're about

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<v Speaker 2>seven months away from the start of the program officially,

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<v Speaker 2>it's meant to start in July next year, with the

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<v Speaker 2>ability changes a year later, and there is so much

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<v Speaker 2>that needs to be worked out before we getting everything

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<v Speaker 2>into place. And bearing in mind that we were meant

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<v Speaker 2>to have foundational supports in place the first of July

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<v Speaker 2>this year and they were not ready.

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<v Speaker 1>And record sounds like from what you've been saying that

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<v Speaker 1>there's little doubt that as this particular process unfolds, there

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<v Speaker 1>is going to be children who need help, who are

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<v Speaker 1>going to fall through the cracks.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I personally think we're already seen it. The

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<v Speaker 2>Health Minister, Mark Butler said there will be no children

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<v Speaker 2>removed from the scheme before Thriving Kids comes into place,

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<v Speaker 2>except and this was his statement, except as part of

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<v Speaker 2>the usual assessment and reassessment process, which has been ongoing

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<v Speaker 2>and has always been ongoing. But what we've seen in

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<v Speaker 2>the last year is that the government has essentially tripled

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<v Speaker 2>the budget for the Eligibility and Access Team within the

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<v Speaker 2>National Disability Insurance Agency, and they've also tried to mess

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<v Speaker 2>around with their guidelines and internal policies around how those

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<v Speaker 2>eligibility reassessments are done. And we've seen reports from people

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<v Speaker 2>who are on the front line of children just being removed,

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<v Speaker 2>people without autism just being kicked off, people with long term, permanent,

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<v Speaker 2>in some cases terminal diagnoses things like modern neurone disease

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<v Speaker 2>and multiple sclerosis being removed with very little indication as

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<v Speaker 2>to why.

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<v Speaker 1>And why is it rick What do you think is

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<v Speaker 1>really behind the government's changes to who is eligible for

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<v Speaker 1>the NDAs?

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<v Speaker 2>So essentially what they're saying is, well, we think participants

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<v Speaker 2>are brought in the scheme, what they really want to

0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:41.720
<v Speaker 2>be saying, or I think the truthful answer is that

0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:45.680
<v Speaker 2>we are designed the scheme with far too much choice

0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:48.280
<v Speaker 2>and control, which is what the original promise was. It

0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:50.560
<v Speaker 2>will sold us a silver bullet, right, Everyone gets choice

0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:52.880
<v Speaker 2>and control. Everyone can spend the money how they want

0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:55.280
<v Speaker 2>in a way that helps them live in the community.

0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:58.760
<v Speaker 2>And that's what the legislation from twenty thirteen aloud. And

0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.880
<v Speaker 2>the government has changed its mind, and they're allowed to

0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:04.840
<v Speaker 2>change their mind. They're at the government, but they're definitely

0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:07.080
<v Speaker 2>not being honest about it. And I think that is

0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:09.360
<v Speaker 2>the thing that drives me and particularly the advocates and

0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:13.440
<v Speaker 2>people who use the system absolutely spared. You know, fraud

0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:17.920
<v Speaker 2>and wrouting is a problem in every government program. It's

0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:19.640
<v Speaker 2>a big problem in the Indias, it's a big problem

0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:23.360
<v Speaker 2>in age care. It's often at the level of the provider.

0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:26.520
<v Speaker 2>And we've seen all these examples over and over again

0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:29.840
<v Speaker 2>of the National Disability Insurance Scheme, quality and Safeguard's Commission

0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:33.080
<v Speaker 2>failing to do its job properly, failing to regulate the sector.

0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:35.560
<v Speaker 2>Whenever it tries to crack down on that, or say

0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:37.280
<v Speaker 2>that they're cracking down on that, what they end up

0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:40.640
<v Speaker 2>doing is removing the ability of people who have disabilities

0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:43.160
<v Speaker 2>who use the scheme to use the scheme as they're

0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:46.400
<v Speaker 2>initially promised. And I genuinely think that's quite appalling.

0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:51.679
<v Speaker 1>Well, Rick, thank you so much for your time.

0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:53.240
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for it, It's always a pleasure.

0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:09.120
<v Speaker 1>Also in the news, only one in five millennials voted

0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:11.480
<v Speaker 1>for the Coalition at the last federal election, a new

0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:15.440
<v Speaker 1>study has revealed. The research, known as the Australian Election Study,

0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:17.920
<v Speaker 1>is an authoritative study conducted by the A and U

0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:21.640
<v Speaker 1>after every election since nineteen eighty seven. Results show that

0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:25.120
<v Speaker 1>young voters viewed climate change as a serious threat. Despite that,

0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.440
<v Speaker 1>the Coalition looks set to scrap their support for that

0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:31.040
<v Speaker 1>zero this week and the trial of Alan Jones will

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<v Speaker 1>begin next August and could last up to four months,

0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:36.480
<v Speaker 1>with one hundred witnesses expected to appear. A magistrate has

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<v Speaker 1>announced the disgraced former broadcaster faces twenty five indecent assault

0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:45.840
<v Speaker 1>charges and two sexual touching charges against nine complainants. The

0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:48.320
<v Speaker 1>assaults are alleged to have taken place at the Opera House,

0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:52.160
<v Speaker 1>a restaurant of his various homes and formal workplaces. Alan

0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:55.920
<v Speaker 1>Jones denies all the allegations. I'm Ruby Jones. This is

0:14:55.960 --> 0:15:06.640
<v Speaker 1>seven am. Thanks for listening.