Speaker 1: Approche Production. Welcome to Secrets of the Underworld. I am
Speaker 1: Neil the muscle coumments. You've probably heard about the last
Speaker 1: King of the Cross, John Abraham. Mister Ibrahim, You've been
Speaker 1: described as the King of the Cross. Behind every king
Speaker 1: stands a loyal soldier. Their job is to make sure
Speaker 1: that that king stays on the throne. I am that soldier,
Speaker 1: and in this episode I speak with Uk Hardman.
Speaker 2: Paul Stands started punching the windows on the door in
Speaker 2: He didn't know what was going and I'm trying to handle.
Speaker 2: He started driving off and I hope he watches this year.
Speaker 2: I really hope he watches this. He opened the door
Speaker 2: for me and he turned round, took one look at
Speaker 2: me and let go of the door. And it smacked me.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Hey, if I'm tenure, it is stupid, stupid, Yeah, because
Speaker 2: I've put so many people in danger that but I
Speaker 2: managed to escape from the mental institution. Took me a while,
Speaker 2: but I've figured it out and I've got out of it.
Speaker 2: She come down. My mom looked me in the eyes
Speaker 2: and she said, kill them.
Speaker 1: Let's get to know you as as a person first,
Speaker 1: before we get into nitty grizzy.
Speaker 2: So I was born in London. I grew up there
Speaker 2: for a fair bit of my childhood, restrained family. Mom
Speaker 2: and dad didn't really get on. My dad was a
Speaker 2: bit handsy. I used to whip my mom up a lot,
Speaker 2: and that was Yeah. I never really witnessed it, but
Speaker 2: I heard it, do you know what I mean? And
Speaker 2: sometimes I think that's worse than actually seeing it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I seen your imagination. Yes, the imagination, isn't it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And then all you see is you see the after effects,
Speaker 2: you know, the cut lip, the black eye. I feel
Speaker 2: like that plays more trauma than actually seeing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember when my mother and father used to
Speaker 1: fight and I used to try and get in the middle.
Speaker 1: And I remember one day we were in ten Reef
Speaker 1: and he I was in the way and I told
Speaker 1: him stop it. My mom stopping my mom. And then
Speaker 1: he threw me against the wall and that was just
Speaker 1: that was that was a massive changer for me, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, because I was only young then
Speaker 1: and I had to throw me against the wall and
Speaker 1: then he launched up my mother. It was it was
Speaker 1: pretty That was the only time I've ever seen them fight,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Did that change your view and your old man.
Speaker 1: But this way it didn't because me and him became
Speaker 1: he was he was my best mate, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. But I used to get told different things
Speaker 1: off different but like my mother would say bad things
Speaker 1: about my dad, and my dad would say bad things
Speaker 1: about my mom, so I could never get the full story.
Speaker 1: So but then I always because my mom used to
Speaker 1: take the piss all the time out of my dad.
Speaker 1: I stuck up for my dad because he never he
Speaker 1: never used to say a bad word. I've always think
Speaker 1: my dad's getting done by you while you picking on
Speaker 1: my dad all the time. So that's that was always
Speaker 1: staying with my dad. But now I've grown up and
Speaker 1: now I remember things. It's funny how when you grow
Speaker 1: up you remember and remember remember things. Now I go, shit,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? You fucking used to do that,
Speaker 1: your little fuck you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: I mean thinking mature mind though, that isn't it.
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: You know, when you as you get older, you start
Speaker 2: to think like an adult or not a child. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so you start seeing how more messed up it was
Speaker 2: that your parents actually said them things to you as
Speaker 2: a child, because it really it shouldn't be said, it
Speaker 2: should have been kept between them, you know. And I
Speaker 2: think again that plays a massive part in trauma that
Speaker 2: you end up reliving as you get older. But it
Speaker 2: does make you a better parent as well. It make
Speaker 2: me a better parent, yeah, you know, so learning from that.
Speaker 2: It come with its trauma, but I'll become a better
Speaker 2: parent because of it, because I didn't want to be
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but how do the affect the household? Though?
Speaker 2: Massively? Because my my my dad didn't really get on
Speaker 2: with my brother, so that was like always aguments between
Speaker 2: them two, and my mom used to waste it up
Speaker 2: for my brother, so my mum used to get it
Speaker 2: from my dad. Yeah, you know, and we was young,
Speaker 2: so whilst they're all having their arguments, we was pushed
Speaker 2: off into a room listening to it. And then afterwards
Speaker 2: my dad would leave. I can't I can't tell you
Speaker 2: it's whether mum kicked him out or whether he just left,
Speaker 2: but he'd leave, and then of course my mum would
Speaker 2: have all these marks on her clothes, would be stretched
Speaker 2: out and you're trying to be like, what's going on here,
Speaker 2: but at the same time and you were kamm like
Speaker 2: trying to help her out. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: But the next day and or the day after, did
Speaker 1: it always go back to like nothing ever happened? It was,
Speaker 1: of course, of.
Speaker 2: Course, because you know, it's loving it. Look, it's the
Speaker 2: strangest love that you could have, because they'd hit each
Speaker 2: other and hate each other, and then they'll come back
Speaker 2: and say sorry, it never happened again. You're like, okay,
Speaker 2: and then it's back to normal again. You're not sure
Speaker 2: whether you're coming and going. Yeah, and then it went.
Speaker 2: It got a bit too much one time, and I
Speaker 2: remember my mom got beat up pretty bad, and in
Speaker 2: my dad went to work, and then when he went
Speaker 2: to work, we packed up and left. So the police
Speaker 2: were there. I just remember the police being there, some
Speaker 2: people that was in normal clothes, and we ended up
Speaker 2: getting took to protective housing, which is where I spent
Speaker 2: a lot of my childhood, growing up in things called
Speaker 2: women's refuges, you know what I mean, Because yeah, so
Speaker 2: I grew up in women's refuges, so I spent most
Speaker 2: of my time surrounded by women, you know, So I
Speaker 2: never really had a masculine person there. And my brother
Speaker 2: was older, so he was staying around his friend's houses
Speaker 2: rather than being in these women's refugees with us. So
Speaker 2: you know I was the only boy in a women's
Speaker 2: refuge with three hundred and eighty seven women.
Speaker 1: Fuck me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was brought up by so many women.
Speaker 1: What about school? What about schooling?
Speaker 3: Though?
Speaker 2: Score was rough man because because every time my dad
Speaker 2: found us, we had to move. So I've literally been
Speaker 2: to over one hundred schools. One time I was in school,
Speaker 2: I went into school, I was there a day, and
Speaker 2: then I had to go and then join up to
Speaker 2: another school, and I was in that school for two
Speaker 2: weeks and then my dad found us again.
Speaker 1: How old were you doing?
Speaker 2: It wasn't so it started probably I was about four
Speaker 2: or five when it started. So from four or five
Speaker 2: right up until I got expelled in high school, I
Speaker 2: was in and out of school. Not because I was
Speaker 2: a nuisance, just because I was a nuisance when I
Speaker 2: was at high school. Is when I was younger, I
Speaker 2: was in and out of schools because we were being
Speaker 2: moved around.
Speaker 1: Did you ever get pissed off with your dad for
Speaker 1: doing that?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Did you know?
Speaker 2: I was so listen, I was so young, yeah, with
Speaker 2: understanding that emotion that I just wondered where my dad
Speaker 2: went because one minute he was there, next minute he
Speaker 2: was gone. And like your mom did to you. My
Speaker 2: mom used to say, your dad's a bad man, and
Speaker 2: throughout our life he was a horrible person. But as
Speaker 2: I was getting older, I felt like I was missing
Speaker 2: what everybody else had, a dad, a father and man figure.
Speaker 2: My brother was here and there, do you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. It wasn't until I started getting older that
Speaker 2: he started paying attention to me as a young man,
Speaker 2: where he started teaching me how to cook and shave,
Speaker 2: not a mad but shave and dress and stuff. You know.
Speaker 2: It wasn't until I started getting older in my teens
Speaker 2: where he become a father figure to me.
Speaker 1: Yea.
Speaker 2: But I always wanted to know about my dad. As
Speaker 2: much as I heard it and as much as my
Speaker 2: mum was telling me all this stuff, I was still curious.
Speaker 2: I wanted to know about who my dad was and
Speaker 2: why he did it.
Speaker 1: Did you ask him?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I found him. I went and found him. The
Speaker 2: first time I went there, I went to his house
Speaker 2: at nighttime. I drove up to London. I was a
Speaker 2: visiting family, and I went around his house and I
Speaker 2: went up to the door and then I walked away
Speaker 2: from the door because I didn't I didn't know if
Speaker 2: he was going to be happy that I turned up
Speaker 2: or whether I was going to have the same respect
Speaker 2: is what my mom did. So I went back to
Speaker 2: the car and I read a letter saying, two Paul
Speaker 2: stands because his name's the same as mine, two Paul stands.
Speaker 2: But I didn't even put dad. I was really I was.
Speaker 2: Emotion wise, I was. I was so up that when
Speaker 2: I got there, I dropped. I plummeted hard because I
Speaker 2: wanted to see this guy and I wanted to I
Speaker 2: had this imagination of what he would be like as
Speaker 2: a father to me. It was nothing like I thought.
Speaker 2: It was nothing like I thought. You know, it's all
Speaker 2: smokes and mirrors with him, unfortunately, but I wrote this letter.
Speaker 2: I basically said, you've not been a dad to me,
Speaker 2: and I really went at him. I posted the letter,
Speaker 2: but I thought it was his house and it was
Speaker 2: an next door neighbor's house. Fuck yeah, And do you
Speaker 2: know what it is? I didn't know, and I didn't
Speaker 2: mean that in any way. Yeah. But later on, like
Speaker 2: a few years later, I had come back and I
Speaker 2: had the bulls to go and to go and knock
Speaker 2: on the door, because I really I was curious, and
Speaker 2: it wasn't then until he told me that I posted
Speaker 2: letter next door. And after posting a letter next door,
Speaker 2: he told me how humiliating that was, which I thought
Speaker 2: was a bit of a bad move for him to
Speaker 2: say how embarrassed he was that the letter went next
Speaker 2: door because I had to live it for years and
Speaker 2: he only had a letter drop on a doorstep, do
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? There was no apology for
Speaker 2: him making me have to make new friends at school
Speaker 2: over one hundred times, you know what I mean. There
Speaker 2: was no I had to share a bathroom with like
Speaker 2: loads of other people and we all ate together with it.
Speaker 2: There was no what about my embarrassment, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean? So for me straight away, I was like
Speaker 2: a little bit disrespectful, but I didn't say nothing because
Speaker 2: I really wanted to know. I wanted to know him.
Speaker 2: I wanted to see if we was alike. I wanted
Speaker 2: to know if I was going to end up being
Speaker 2: like him. I wanted to know where because I'm so
Speaker 2: different from the rest of my family that all of
Speaker 2: my brothers and my sisters are like my mom's side
Speaker 2: of the family, and I was very different. So I
Speaker 2: wanted to know where I come from, why I'm the
Speaker 2: way I am, Why am I so different from them?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: So I had a lot of curious going on in
Speaker 2: my head where I needed to find out where I
Speaker 2: come from genetically, to find out if I'm going to
Speaker 2: be as messed up as everybody else.
Speaker 1: You know, were you disappointed when you when you kind
Speaker 1: of like got to know him, like when you confronted them?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I was for many reasons because do
Speaker 2: you know when they say you should ever meet your idol? Yeah,
Speaker 2: because it's a disappointment. You're never. It's never how you
Speaker 2: imagine it's going to be. That was a bit like
Speaker 2: that with me and my father. So my dad he's
Speaker 2: got a house and he's he's quite successful in the
Speaker 2: job that he does in that lot, but did he
Speaker 2: really matter? Yeah he did. Yeah. He he got with
Speaker 2: another woman not long after my mum and had some
Speaker 2: more children, and they are so different from from us,
Speaker 2: so different.
Speaker 1: Do you think it's do you think it's it was
Speaker 1: made you the you are today?
Speaker 2: Though, very much so. A lot has made me the
Speaker 2: person I am today, but the parent I am today,
Speaker 2: very much so.
Speaker 1: Because you want to be different to how you were
Speaker 1: treated when you were a kid.
Speaker 2: You never wear yeah exactly. I mean, you know, some
Speaker 2: people give harsh lessons to bring to teach you to
Speaker 2: be a man, and I don't think you need that,
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? I just think you
Speaker 2: just need, you know, nourishment and just guidance rather than
Speaker 2: you need to be like this way, you know, because
Speaker 2: it's almost a sense of still, I don't know, like
Speaker 2: alpha power when you have when you're not really an alpha,
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: But did did this make you rebel?
Speaker 2: Yes? But it wasn't my dad that made me rebel.
Speaker 2: My mum met another geezer and he was absolutely a horrible,
Speaker 2: horrible guy. But my mom got with him because he
Speaker 2: was a big guy, and I think she got with
Speaker 2: him to keep my dad away from her. Okay, but
Speaker 2: she just traded what she had with another guy with
Speaker 2: more power. Do you do you understand?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So her protecting herself from him put her directly
Speaker 2: in danger again. And this guy hated me. He hated
Speaker 2: me because I am the carbon copy spitting image of
Speaker 2: my old man.
Speaker 1: So what was that like?
Speaker 2: And he hated it?
Speaker 1: In what way did he did he do anything to
Speaker 1: make you like feel like not wanted?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Made everything like I was grounded all the time
Speaker 2: for nothing. He used to come and like mentally mess
Speaker 2: with my head. He loved WWF and I was his playbuddy,
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? Like he'd twist me
Speaker 2: up like mad met It was like six foot six
Speaker 2: foot three, six foot four, and he'd twist me up, mate,
Speaker 2: really hurts, you know, like as a kid, put my
Speaker 2: legs over my head, like do everything he could so
Speaker 2: get me to cry.
Speaker 1: What did your mom do?
Speaker 2: My mom was like, you need a harden up son,
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? And do this because
Speaker 2: she never saw she she got brought up fairly rough
Speaker 2: as well, so this was like normal. But she just
Speaker 2: see it as like stop being so rough with him,
Speaker 2: and then they'd argue. So it was kind of like
Speaker 2: so he'd end up doing this when she'd be out
Speaker 2: working or she'd go to the shop. This is when
Speaker 2: he stopped so she's not around. And then there was times, mate,
Speaker 2: I thought I was wetting the beds for years. I
Speaker 2: thought I was coming up into coming up in the
Speaker 2: high school wetting the beds. You know, it wasn't this
Speaker 2: geezer was coming in at nighttime, pouring water over us
Speaker 2: and then like having a go, say you're grounded because
Speaker 2: he had no friends so he and he loved football,
Speaker 2: so he used to pour water over us. Tell my mom,
Speaker 2: I'd wet the bed. And then my grounding was to
Speaker 2: go and play football. I wouldn't be allowed out of
Speaker 2: my room. The only time I was allowed out of
Speaker 2: my room was to go and play football. This guy
Speaker 2: fuck me.
Speaker 1: Yeah that's been twisted.
Speaker 2: Yeah it really is. So it was all for him,
Speaker 2: it was all mine. He never slapped me, He never
Speaker 2: enforced himself like like ah, it was all mind games
Speaker 2: and it was all hard gripping and twisting up. That
Speaker 2: was what he was doing to me.
Speaker 1: Are they still together?
Speaker 3: Nah?
Speaker 2: Nah? But that's when I started rebelling.
Speaker 1: So what did you do to rebel?
Speaker 2: Like? What was that?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 1: Just go out and rebel? Or like what was it?
Speaker 2: So after he left, I had my first fight at school,
Speaker 2: and then I got a taste for it and realized
Speaker 2: that I wasn't what he would make me believe I
Speaker 2: was like because he made me feel like I was weak.
Speaker 2: He made me feel like I was nothing like I
Speaker 2: had no power like he made me feel like a child,
Speaker 2: even when I was growing into a teenager. He made
Speaker 2: me feel like I was this week feeble individual that
Speaker 2: couldn't say boo to a ghost. I was just like, oh,
Speaker 2: you're you know you're pussy. You need to say all
Speaker 2: this stuff to get into my head so I wouldn't
Speaker 2: react back to him, so I'd just be accepting all
Speaker 2: of this. But after he left and I had my
Speaker 2: first fight, I thought to myself, and this boy I
Speaker 2: had a fight with him. He was bigger than me,
Speaker 2: and I've done him. But I was shocked that I'd
Speaker 2: done him because I didn't think I had that in me.
Speaker 2: But when I sat there and I thought about it,
Speaker 2: there was no one that was of my age or
Speaker 2: a little bit older that was going to be able
Speaker 2: to test me. Because I've been taking it for years
Speaker 2: from a six foot four geezer who was like crazy
Speaker 2: strong and twisted me up to a point where I
Speaker 2: was able not to cry even when I was in pain. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because I couldn't show him. I couldn't. I couldn't give
Speaker 2: him that because even though he's took my strength power
Speaker 2: from me, I couldn't let him take my my inner power,
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? Because if I did
Speaker 2: do that, there's there's there's that's hard to come back
Speaker 2: from that, ain't it?
Speaker 1: Y I did. I didn't. I didn't rebell go by fighting,
Speaker 1: by rebelled by going around stealing cars. And that was
Speaker 1: my way because I never used to hang around with
Speaker 1: anybody to who did that. But then because I was
Speaker 1: having trouble at home, and I you know, I just
Speaker 1: went fucking I started hanging around with guys and you
Speaker 1: wouldn't tell them. You just say, I'm playing football at
Speaker 1: the park, but I'm going to rob cars and going
Speaker 1: in golf courses and fucking, you know, doing handbrake turns
Speaker 1: in fucking in the cars, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: going over the fucking sandhills and the bunkers, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. But then I'd go home like I'm
Speaker 1: carrying my ball like I was, you know, I just
Speaker 1: had a game of football in the park, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I I've been them myself. I mean not the
Speaker 2: golf courses, but myself with the stealing cars and myself,
Speaker 2: I've done I did nick a lot, but I've never
Speaker 2: done how It was just and just shot, you know,
Speaker 2: I don't, I don't, I don't know. I got involved
Speaker 2: with all that lot as well, but that wasn't until
Speaker 2: after So what what age group did you start? I
Speaker 2: was about twelve?
Speaker 1: Oh fuck that early?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: And what did you do for rebell Was it mostly
Speaker 1: just fighting in school or what?
Speaker 2: Yeah? It was kind of laying my laying my footwork
Speaker 2: down for rebelling against anyone authority. Basically, anyone that was
Speaker 2: telling me to do something I'd refuse that would end
Speaker 2: up followed by violence. Anyone that was standing in my way,
Speaker 2: anyone that was to try and take away my strength
Speaker 2: was a problem, whether it was just them shouting or
Speaker 2: whether it was then being physical or them laying their
Speaker 2: dominance down, were telling me what to do, even though
Speaker 2: I should have listened because there were adults and I
Speaker 2: was a child, you know, but I just won't haveing
Speaker 2: none of it. Wow.
Speaker 1: Didn't get expelled?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I got expelled a lot. Yeah, I got expelled.
Speaker 2: It got to a point where none of those schools
Speaker 2: would take me, and I ended up at a naughty boys'
Speaker 2: school and that was I was only they used to
Speaker 2: come and get me in a taxi because I wouldn't
Speaker 2: get on any transport or nothing. They'd picked me up
Speaker 2: in a taxi. They drive me to the school. I
Speaker 2: was there for no longer than three hours because my
Speaker 2: mind would only allow me to concentrate for three hours
Speaker 2: before I started getting like aggravated, and then I'd end
Speaker 2: up fighting, and then the taxi would take me home again.
Speaker 2: And I'd only have to do that three times a week.
Speaker 2: So my school, I'd only have to go to school
Speaker 2: three times a week for three hours each day. Shit. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so yeah, and you know, the school was good, But
Speaker 2: it was good because the teachers understood you rather than
Speaker 2: they didn't tell you. They understood you, and they talked
Speaker 2: to you like a person rather than so the teachers,
Speaker 2: I couldn't fault them, but it was you're in a
Speaker 2: school of naughty kids, and each of them was bad
Speaker 2: in their school. So when they get to a school
Speaker 2: where each kid has been kicked out for the same thing,
Speaker 2: you're laying dominance down in this school. And there was
Speaker 2: there's a guy, he me and this one other guy.
Speaker 2: We was we'd never be nothing out of life. It
Speaker 2: would be we'd never have children, we never have wives.
Speaker 2: We just go to jowl and all this like yeah,
Speaker 2: and me and him have been the most successful ones
Speaker 2: that left at school. He's called David Steel and he
Speaker 2: actually is my window cleaner. Now he's got a window
Speaker 2: he really he's really successful and he does all my
Speaker 2: windows and another. But when he was at school, he
Speaker 2: was going he wanted to go off to the Navy,
Speaker 2: and he went off to the Navy. He got kicked
Speaker 2: out of there. But yeah, he cleans my windows now
Speaker 2: in the town shop.
Speaker 1: That's funny. That's funny. So when you get to about
Speaker 1: your late teens, what are you up to? What are
Speaker 1: you doing? Like seventeen? Everything?
Speaker 2: Everything, I mean, I say everything. I'm not doing drugs.
Speaker 2: I'm not. I don't. I'm not smoking. I'm not. I
Speaker 2: wasn't like that wayward you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but
Speaker 2: stolen gear, stealing cars, selling cars to stripping the cars out,
Speaker 2: motorbikes and fight that was me, mate.
Speaker 1: What was your mother thinking at this time?
Speaker 2: Me and my brother we was allowed to be that
Speaker 2: way because it was like the whole Peggy Mitchell and
Speaker 2: Phil Grant thing, like my boys, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: So we was like if we had a fight and
Speaker 2: we went back, I said, MoMA just had a fight.
Speaker 2: She'd be like, did you win? And it'd be like yeah,
Speaker 2: She's like, good boy, go and get you know, carry
Speaker 2: on basically, do you know what I mean? But it
Speaker 2: was always did you win? And if we'd have said no,
Speaker 2: it'd be like right, getting a car and then we'd
Speaker 2: go round the house and then my mom would be
Speaker 2: like your boys you know, or whatever wherever the situation
Speaker 2: of being wow. But my mom was quite quite hands
Speaker 2: on herself, like she not with us, not with the boys,
Speaker 2: but she was hands on. She she got stuck in
Speaker 2: if her dad turned up that she she she was
Speaker 2: quite a fierce woman. She's a very short woman. But
Speaker 2: you wouldn't mess with it. Honestly. Yeah, yeah, she's pretty fierce.
Speaker 2: But because my mom had had these jokers as husbands,
Speaker 2: it was mine and my brother's job. As we got
Speaker 2: older and we was more fighting, she almost prepped us
Speaker 2: in case they come back, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: So we was prepped to and but listen, my mum
Speaker 2: done good. Yeah, my mom brought me up. Well, I
Speaker 2: have no problems with how my mum and what my
Speaker 2: mum done for me. She fed us when she never
Speaker 2: had nothing, she went without, so wee could have not toys, food, clothes. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So my mum was a very good woman. When it
Speaker 2: comes to the hugs and stuff, not so much. We
Speaker 2: didn't have all that emotional hugs and the kisses we had.
Speaker 2: I love you boys, I love you too, and it's
Speaker 2: kind of like that, but there was no like hugs
Speaker 2: and stuff. Me. I'm a hugger. I love a hug,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. So if you want to
Speaker 2: give me a hug, I'm going to give you a hug,
Speaker 2: and I probably won't let go first, you know.
Speaker 1: But it's but how have you got like that if
Speaker 1: your mother wasn't like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my brother wasn't like it either. My brother wasn't
Speaker 2: like it, And that's why I wanted to know. Like,
Speaker 2: my family are not very huggab with people, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean. They're like, you're right dead arm, you know,
Speaker 2: it's like you're good, like you go kiss me. You
Speaker 2: kissed me on top of the edge, don't kiss me
Speaker 2: on the cheek. It's weird, you know, you know, Like
Speaker 2: it's like that. Yeah. So and when they come in
Speaker 2: they touch you on the shoulder and they're like brush
Speaker 2: off your shoulder, like, oh, get off, what are you
Speaker 2: doing that for that's weird, like stop it, but but
Speaker 2: like my friend, don't get my hug, and I won't
Speaker 2: to let go. You know, it's strange. It's strange. I
Speaker 2: don't know. That's why I wanted to know why I
Speaker 2: was emotionally attached with myself enough to be able to
Speaker 2: have a scrap one second and then give you a
Speaker 2: hug the next. Do you know what I mean? I
Speaker 2: didn't understand what was going on. I wasn't I wasn't
Speaker 2: taught the difference between between being a lunatic and being
Speaker 2: a lover. I wasn't taught the difference, so it was
Speaker 2: just merged into one like I'll smack you and feel
Speaker 2: bad for it. M I didn't want to do it,
Speaker 2: but I just did it, you know, And it's I'm
Speaker 2: not proud of who I was or what I've done,
Speaker 2: and I've apologize as I've got older. And of course
Speaker 2: the trauma has been on the other side of us
Speaker 2: now because of what happened with my brother, which we
Speaker 2: get to, but feeling what has been done to me
Speaker 2: made me go in myself and realize how much I
Speaker 2: was doing that was so negative that I was making
Speaker 2: other people feel how I feel, and that changed me massively.
Speaker 1: When did you When did you think it got out
Speaker 1: of hand?
Speaker 2: Straight straight away? As soon as he left. Soon as
Speaker 2: he left, I had to I literally had to be
Speaker 2: a different person. And I'd done whatever it took to
Speaker 2: be the person that I know that if he ever
Speaker 2: come back, it's game time.
Speaker 1: Oh so you were prepared to do it.
Speaker 2: I was prepared to take him out, like sure, one
Speaker 2: hundred percent, yeah, because of what he'd done for me,
Speaker 2: you know. And and I went to the gym, I
Speaker 2: got tattoos, I I was fighting. I was. I was
Speaker 2: full on, like if you was, if you was, I
Speaker 2: turned myself into this horrible person where if we was
Speaker 2: walking down the road and he was looking and I know,
Speaker 2: you're going to get people on here going Yeah, if
Speaker 2: I saw him in the street, it beyond and I'd
Speaker 2: make it my bitch and all that. Yeah, good good,
Speaker 2: nice one, nice one, and they're great. But at that
Speaker 2: time I was I was relentless, mate, I was relentless,
Speaker 2: and I got involved with everything as long as it
Speaker 2: was violence, and it allowed me to be feared. I
Speaker 2: was there and it was all for one reason and
Speaker 2: one reason only. It was preparing myself for when that
Speaker 2: giant come back.
Speaker 1: Did you ever see him again?
Speaker 2: Do you know what I did I did?
Speaker 1: Did you give him? Did you give a space?
Speaker 2: This?
Speaker 3: This?
Speaker 2: This will shock you, actually, yeah, this will shock you
Speaker 2: because I was younger when I saw him. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: I was. I was about sixteen seventeen when I saw him,
Speaker 2: So I wasn't even a man and I was still
Speaker 2: a child. And I always said to myself, when I
Speaker 2: see him, I'm gonna do this. He's like, I got
Speaker 2: it in my head a million times over. I was
Speaker 2: going to do them. And he come down the road
Speaker 2: where we lived, and I was standing in the front
Speaker 2: garden and Carl went past me and I saw him
Speaker 2: and he looked at me and I was like, that's him.
Speaker 2: And then he drove past again and didn't look, just
Speaker 2: drove past, and I was I was standing there and
Speaker 2: I just went cold. I went cold, and I had
Speaker 2: it like it's at him. What I need to be
Speaker 2: able to be prepared for him because he's gonna, he's gonna.
Speaker 2: It's going to be on. Yeah. And he wound down
Speaker 2: the window and he goes, you're right, Paul, because he
Speaker 2: drove back and he goes, you right, Paul, and I
Speaker 2: was looking at him and I was like, that was him, brother.
Speaker 2: I froze. Never ever in my life have I ever
Speaker 2: froze on anything, and not have I ever since then? Yeah,
Speaker 2: but I went back to being a child again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that had.
Speaker 2: Been twisted up by this Greenes Like I literally froze
Speaker 2: and I didn't know what to do. Yeah, And this
Speaker 2: was a shock to me because if he would have
Speaker 2: come two years later, there wouldn't have been no freezing.
Speaker 2: I would have because I was I was started like
Speaker 2: coming in to myself where when things were put on me,
Speaker 2: I was able to deal with it. But that was
Speaker 2: kind of like the first time that was just put
Speaker 2: on me and I just reverted back to the child
Speaker 2: again and never ever will that ever happen to me again.
Speaker 1: So after after all that, and you're in your twenties,
Speaker 1: what are you up to? Then you're still being violent? Well,
Speaker 1: tell me about tell me about a day being.
Speaker 2: Violent, a day of being violent. It depends whether it
Speaker 2: depends whether I've got a job on.
Speaker 1: Like when when I tell me to tell me a
Speaker 1: day when you got pissed off and you just got
Speaker 1: when I go out on the fucking rampage, tell me
Speaker 1: what a day would be in the like.
Speaker 2: From from the minute I'll wake up, I'm I'm feeling it.
Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean. I'm schizophrenic anyway, but
Speaker 2: I'm ID schizophrenic. Yeah, so like i was diagnosed a
Speaker 2: little bit on from there. So I'm in my twenties,
Speaker 2: I'm diagnosed now that I'm ID schizophrenic. I've been in
Speaker 2: and out of mental institutions where they deemed me unsafe
Speaker 2: to the public. Yeah. So if I'm having a bad day,
Speaker 2: every everything, everything is on, it doesn't matter. Like if
Speaker 2: you if I was walking down the road and this
Speaker 2: is the me that I'm ashamed of. Yeah, now where
Speaker 2: before I thrived off of it. Yeah, but I would
Speaker 2: go out and if anyone who money. If my brother
Speaker 2: was a dealer at the time, and I'd be the
Speaker 2: one going to collect the debts for him, and he
Speaker 2: had friends that done that, so I'd be I'd be
Speaker 2: collecting money, you know what I'm talking about, And I'd
Speaker 2: go and collect money. So I'll turn up in the
Speaker 2: middle of the night when you're asleep, into your kingdom
Speaker 2: where it's like you feel the most safe, and I'd
Speaker 2: dominate you where you are. You know, and I'd get
Speaker 2: what I need to get from you, and that that
Speaker 2: would be it. So if I was having a bad day,
Speaker 2: the people that I worked for would love it because
Speaker 2: they'd be giving me all of this, like you need
Speaker 2: to go and pick this up, you need to pick
Speaker 2: this up because they know that the job's getting done.
Speaker 2: So it is house collecting money, picking up any any
Speaker 2: fight in between, like walking down the road. What you're
Speaker 2: looking at this? This is what I'm saying. Like I've
Speaker 2: said this a million times. Yeah, on all the other
Speaker 2: podcasts that I've been on, and the amount of people
Speaker 2: that go and they're going, yeah, i'd make you my bitch,
Speaker 2: I'll do you and all that. Try it true, try it,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Don't tru try it, you know.
Speaker 2: And it's always private accounts with like no pictures, and
Speaker 2: you know, it makes me die because yeah, you know, real,
Speaker 2: recognize real, and I know that you ain't real, but
Speaker 2: I was. I was never I never bullied, do you
Speaker 2: know what I mean? Like, I never bullied. Like the
Speaker 2: people that I did go after were people that ooh money.
Speaker 2: It's that world. Do you know the world I'm talking about.
Speaker 2: It's the world. So I wasn't out there just smacking
Speaker 2: up someone that walked down the street, that was walking
Speaker 2: a dog or nothing unless they started something.
Speaker 1: You know, were you worse on alcohol or did you
Speaker 1: know you've never doat you don't drink.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't drink. I don't drink. Alcohol didn't really
Speaker 2: change me at all. I was just it was it
Speaker 2: was the things that changed me is the people I'm
Speaker 2: surrounded by. So if if they're negative and they're game,
Speaker 2: i am gain. But if they're calm and they're collective,
Speaker 2: I'm chilled. So it's whatever. But the problem is with
Speaker 2: because I was that way, no one wanted to be
Speaker 2: chilled around me. Everybody that was surrounding myself with was
Speaker 2: in the same sort of trade, if you can call
Speaker 2: it that.
Speaker 1: Did you ever get arrested for this?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, yeah I've been. I've been arrested multiple times.
Speaker 2: I was. I was up in I was the first
Speaker 2: first person to be up in the new Crown Court
Speaker 2: here in Ipswich when I was a kid for attempted
Speaker 2: murder and it was I got found not guilty. So yeah,
Speaker 2: not guilty. It wasn't me. It wasn't you wouldn't me.
Speaker 2: But I was the youngest person here in Ipswich. For that,
Speaker 2: I was the first person, the first person in the
Speaker 2: youngest person that we tried for attempted murder in the
Speaker 2: Crown court here in Ipswich when I was fifteen.
Speaker 1: Well, are the coppers the coppers give you grief over
Speaker 1: the way you were or Yeah?
Speaker 2: So it was them that got me put in a
Speaker 2: mental institution. They're the ones that had me put away
Speaker 2: in this in the institution. They wouldn't the times when
Speaker 2: I was growing up, they were allowed to take you
Speaker 2: off the street and take you immediately to mental institutions
Speaker 2: and say do not let them out until we say yeah.
Speaker 2: And you were staying in there. You know they won't
Speaker 2: let you out because the police have brought you there,
Speaker 2: so they can leave you as long as you want.
Speaker 2: And I was left there, brother, I was left there.
Speaker 2: They forgot about me. Yeah, and I didn't realize that
Speaker 2: that I was. I could I could leave if I
Speaker 2: wanted to, but it was locked doors. They have to
Speaker 2: let me out, do you know what I mean? And
Speaker 2: they got got told I was allowed there. But I
Speaker 2: managed to escape from the mental institution. I escaped. It
Speaker 2: took me a while, but I've figured it out and
Speaker 2: I got out of it. So I went like, I
Speaker 2: went off to I said, I wasn't feeling too good.
Speaker 2: They took me off to the nurses section of where
Speaker 2: it was, and there was a door there that wasn't
Speaker 2: It was always open and shut and open and shutting,
Speaker 2: so it wasn't a locked door. And as soon as
Speaker 2: that door, as soon as I realized that and I
Speaker 2: was there, the dock turned around or the nurse turned around.
Speaker 2: As I turn around, I was in a gown, open
Speaker 2: back gown. I was out, I've done the door. I've
Speaker 2: come running through the door. I'm running across the green
Speaker 2: like I'm thinking, I'm a thundercat, straight hands, thumbs tucked
Speaker 2: for proper, I'm duck down, I'm running my I feel
Speaker 2: like a superhero because and I'm like, I guess, yeah,
Speaker 2: they listen. If I wasn't a lunatic, I definitely looked
Speaker 2: like one running across the ground. I stole this bike
Speaker 2: with a basket on there with a bell and I
Speaker 2: was like bringing, bring, bing, bring, and I was like
Speaker 2: like this, my arse was all hanging out at the back,
Speaker 2: and yeah, I must have looked like the right pictures. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I was full speed. I've never ridden the bike so
Speaker 2: fast as my life. Mate, I got I got back
Speaker 2: home to my mum's house. I jumped in a car
Speaker 2: and I was gone. Mate. I went up to I
Speaker 2: went up and lived up a Newcastle. Well, I went
Speaker 2: to Manchester. Yeah, I went to Manchester to go and
Speaker 2: hide out at my friend's house and then I ended
Speaker 2: up meeting a girl. I ended up in Sunderlands. We
Speaker 2: lived in Newcastle and she was a nutter more worse
Speaker 2: than what I was.
Speaker 1: All fucking knots. Once you go past.
Speaker 2: Utters, tell me about it. But like in between, in
Speaker 2: between all that, I was wanted for a you know,
Speaker 2: lucky like I say to you, I like, I'm anti
Speaker 2: it now, but I was. I was. I was wanted
Speaker 2: for a knife attack, which I fight against now with
Speaker 2: my charity. But I was. I tried to stab someone
Speaker 2: they called the old Bill and me I was wanted
Speaker 2: for that. They found me in I went on a
Speaker 2: missing person so danger person's think where they were going
Speaker 2: to go on TV and say have you seen this guy?
Speaker 2: But I was in a petrol station in York with
Speaker 2: with with this girl and a guy held the door
Speaker 2: open and as he turned round he sees and I
Speaker 2: hope he watches this year. I really hope he watches this.
Speaker 2: He opened the door for me, and he turned around,
Speaker 2: took one look at me, and let go of the door.
Speaker 2: And it smacked me. Yeah, because I don't know he
Speaker 2: didn't like, well I looked or whatever, but he wasn't
Speaker 2: holding the door open for me, but he was holding
Speaker 2: it and then he released it after he looked at me,
Speaker 2: and it smacked me. Yeah, and I said, I said,
Speaker 2: wait for me outside. I played for the petrol. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was in this car, so I was. I was
Speaker 2: a lump then I was I was absolutely massive. I
Speaker 2: was a unit and I was in this tiny little
Speaker 2: Pergo two six quite in his car. But this guy outside,
Speaker 2: he gets in his car. He had an alpha a male,
Speaker 2: a purple out for a male. And he gets in
Speaker 2: his car and as I've gone walking towards him, he
Speaker 2: goes like this, locks his car and smiles, yeah, like
Speaker 2: he's safe in his car, like cocky. I started smashing.
Speaker 2: I started punching the windows. I kicked the door in.
Speaker 2: He didn't know what was going and I'm trying to
Speaker 2: handle He started driving off. Yeah, and I'm hanging onto
Speaker 2: the car yeah, he's driving off. He's literally not waiting
Speaker 2: for no traffic. Mate. I'm telling here it is stupid, stupid. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because I've put so many people in danger that day
Speaker 2: because he just drove out in the traffic. I fell
Speaker 2: off the car and as I'm screaming at this guy,
Speaker 2: I turned around and when I turned around, there a
Speaker 2: cop There's a cop car sitting there, and the cops
Speaker 2: were standing there and they went, what's going on? I went,
Speaker 2: I've turned around and been like to get in the
Speaker 2: cars chase him. And as I've turned around, the cops
Speaker 2: are standing. They go, what's going on? I was like, uh,
Speaker 2: and I wanted and I'm stating there like nothing. They go,
Speaker 2: we just see you keep that car. I said, no,
Speaker 2: you didn't, So you did? I said no. I said
Speaker 2: he closed his door when I was leaning on it,
Speaker 2: and he had my jacket in his car and he
Speaker 2: took me with him. They were like really, I went yeah,
Speaker 2: and then he didn't know that I was attached to
Speaker 2: his car. I don't think, but he's drive off now
Speaker 2: and they took it. They took it. They went into
Speaker 2: the petrol station and they said, is that guy? Do
Speaker 2: you know this? Guys I said again. I was in
Speaker 2: the petrol station. I was fine, yeah, and they went
Speaker 2: in they said no, it's fine. And so now I'm
Speaker 2: thinking I'm getting nicked. I'm getting took from York back
Speaker 2: to Ipswich, right, so I'm kicking off now to this
Speaker 2: coppers because it's authority and I'm like, mate, what's your problem?
Speaker 2: Let's just what's that? Go calm down? What can we do?
Speaker 2: Calm me down? So let me go. He said what's
Speaker 2: your name? And I went Paul Read. He went, yeah,
Speaker 2: Paul Read. It's because the Read was my stepdad's name,
Speaker 2: the durable guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So whilst he's talking to me, he's doing a check
Speaker 2: on Paul Rid. Yeah, and there's like nothing. Yeah, there's
Speaker 2: like nothing for me. So they go all mate, off
Speaker 2: you go. I was like yeah, it was like yeah.
Speaker 2: I was like no, mate, had a good day. And
Speaker 2: they've gone YouTube like no more of that, and I
Speaker 2: was like, I don't know what we're talking about getting
Speaker 2: a car? And I got off what that was? Me done?
Speaker 2: What I was getting what I was getting took back?
Speaker 1: Do you do you I get a persona of coppers
Speaker 1: in England that I want to sound like in a
Speaker 1: bad way. But are they all fucking dumb?
Speaker 2: Yeah, like they're all dumb or they've got that small
Speaker 2: person mentality where they were bullied, so they feel like
Speaker 2: they have to lay that authority down and everybody to
Speaker 2: be a you know.
Speaker 1: Because over here there's probably any everywhere over the world.
Speaker 1: Everyone laughs at the fucking English coppers because they don't
Speaker 1: carry a fucking gun. They carry they still carry their
Speaker 1: fucking stupid hats on their fucking head. They've still all
Speaker 1: they have is the fucking battern and they just get
Speaker 1: given it every fucking day by people, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? And I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's like, as as irritated as the police are here,
Speaker 2: we're pretty gifted because, like you say, they haven't got guns,
Speaker 2: they haven't got they haven't got anything. I'm telling you man,
Speaker 2: I've come across some street of coppers in my time
Speaker 2: where I've been banned the rights and they just let
Speaker 2: me go because I've been too aggressive for him. Do
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? They can't manage it. But
Speaker 2: my face went out on the the police data base
Speaker 2: and I want to miss it once a person, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I come up as a missing person. So because I
Speaker 2: come up as a missing person and an urgent person
Speaker 2: to get off the street because I'd run away from
Speaker 2: a mental institution. I was schizphrenic, right.
Speaker 1: Well, you put up as dangers, yeah.
Speaker 2: So I was a danger to the public. That's what
Speaker 2: it was. It was danger to the public. Do not approach,
Speaker 2: just call the police, which again I'm not proud of now.
Speaker 2: But then it was awesome because I was like, it
Speaker 2: was the mentality that I wanted everyone to see me
Speaker 2: to be because I thought that I had respect from everybody,
Speaker 2: and it wasn't that. There's no respect on the street.
Speaker 2: There's nothing. It's lonely. You're lonely. As much as you
Speaker 2: feel like you're a part of something big, you ain't.
Speaker 2: You're nothing. You're just a person that is willing to
Speaker 2: do We're a little bit more than the next person.
Speaker 2: And people will love you for that, and they'll use
Speaker 2: you for that, and then they'll throw you away nobody nothing.
Speaker 2: You are nothing at all, and they put me out
Speaker 2: on the APB. I'll come up as like this person,
Speaker 2: they found me, So I didn't go on the forty
Speaker 2: eight hour missing TVF. We're looking for this person, please
Speaker 2: find them. So now they found me in York. I've
Speaker 2: had to leave York. I've gone back to Manchester. I'm
Speaker 2: living in Manchester on Moss Side, which was wild Wild
Speaker 2: moss Side is a is a is a place, mate,
Speaker 2: So I'm over there.
Speaker 1: I actually, I actually when I was when I got
Speaker 1: got my driver's license and I was seventeen years old,
Speaker 1: my fucking mate dared me to drive to Manchester and
Speaker 1: go through my side. And I remember fucking fucking night
Speaker 1: we got up there, and I swear I just didn't
Speaker 1: think I was gonna like It's like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: if you've ever been to Liverpool and there's a there's
Speaker 1: a place exactly like it called Granby Street, and the
Speaker 1: fucking it's the same thing. And he dared me to
Speaker 1: do the same thing there, and I fucking stored my car,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's just like, what the fuck?
Speaker 1: So I know what you're fucking talking about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just madness. But you know who
Speaker 2: you were with everyone there? Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: You know where you are with everyone. There is no
Speaker 2: there's no hidden agendas. Everyone is on the same thing,
Speaker 2: which is real dangerous because you've always got people at
Speaker 2: hand to do jobs so you just you're never not
Speaker 2: out of trouble. You're always in trouble because if you
Speaker 2: don't stick up for the person in the street, you
Speaker 2: ain't help them in the street, you know what I mean? So,
Speaker 2: but did you.
Speaker 1: Did you follow suit?
Speaker 2: Though?
Speaker 1: But by being it, by being in that area, did you,
Speaker 1: like do you think you know, like with everyone else
Speaker 1: what they were doing, did you follow suit with them?
Speaker 2: Mate? I didn't listen. I didn't. I didn't fall in
Speaker 2: line with nobody. I didn't fall in line with nobody.
Speaker 2: I I wanted it. I was hungry for it. I
Speaker 2: was bred to be that person. So I was always game.
Speaker 2: It wasn't like do you want to come? It was
Speaker 2: like I'm in you know. I was always I was
Speaker 2: the game person that was ready to go. And that's
Speaker 2: where I made the biggest mistake, because I felt like
Speaker 2: doing more, doing the things that led me to be
Speaker 2: not so much feared but to be unpredictable, led me
Speaker 2: to believe that I had love where it wasn't because
Speaker 2: I was looking for something that I never had as
Speaker 2: a child, and that was.
Speaker 1: You felt wanted by everybody else because of the fact
Speaker 1: that they wanted you for who what you were like
Speaker 1: what you could do for them, and so you felt
Speaker 1: wanted because you didn't get that from your mom or
Speaker 1: your father, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: So it was crazier I was the more people wanted
Speaker 2: me around, you know what I mean? And I thought
Speaker 2: that I was truly I felt like I belonged somewhere
Speaker 2: where I wasn't actually supposed that I wasn't. I didn't
Speaker 2: belong there, you know, because the love from the street
Speaker 2: was the greatest thing ever. When I had nothing, I
Speaker 2: didn't even have my soul. I never had anything. I
Speaker 2: surrendered to everybody around me, and I was willing to die.
Speaker 2: I was willing to go to jail. I was willing
Speaker 2: to give up everything on who I was to be
Speaker 2: a part of this society, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: This family, this unit of just security because ain't no
Speaker 2: one touching us when we're together in a group, you know.
Speaker 2: And again it's not it wasn't gang mentality. It was
Speaker 2: family and nowhere.
Speaker 1: But where's your where's your where's your proper family? When
Speaker 1: this is going on? Though? When you when you're in
Speaker 1: Manchester with.
Speaker 2: Are they they're doing their own thing. My brothers, my
Speaker 2: brother was off doing he's thing because he got into
Speaker 2: drugs pretty heavy and he was off doing his thing.
Speaker 2: And my sisters and my mum they're like super close,
Speaker 2: so it's like them, and then it's like me and
Speaker 2: my brother are the the other. We'd get contacted if
Speaker 2: something was going wrong or they needed some cash or
Speaker 2: something would get I'd get the call for the cash,
Speaker 2: and my brother, my brother and me would get the
Speaker 2: call if if they is something someone had said something
Speaker 2: to the family, wo'd come back and we'd deal with
Speaker 2: it and then go back and carry on with what
Speaker 2: we were doing.
Speaker 1: You know, what's the worst thing you've done?
Speaker 2: Well, I haven't really done a lot by law of conviction,
Speaker 2: but like the alleged crimes, what I've been alleged to
Speaker 2: have done, you know is allegedly you got.
Speaker 1: We'll go with allegedly, Yeah, allegedly.
Speaker 2: Allegedly there was you know, guns and the attempted murder
Speaker 2: thing and which I found not guilty on. And what
Speaker 2: was it like?
Speaker 1: What was your stock now like that.
Speaker 2: We should have had this conversation?
Speaker 1: What what what was it like? Alleged you you've had weapons, right,
Speaker 1: You've you've seen weapons before. What was it like being
Speaker 1: that age? To actually see.
Speaker 2: It powerful power. I've only need I only seen this
Speaker 2: stuff in on TV. And as like, when I was
Speaker 2: growing up, I was so naive to the world because
Speaker 2: I didn't think anything happened outside the house because I
Speaker 2: was never allowed out of the house. So when I
Speaker 2: started seeing this, you're progressing so fast in the criminal
Speaker 2: underworld that you become somebody, but really your nobody. Like
Speaker 2: there's so there's there's so many levels of criminal and
Speaker 2: in them levels you can be in that same So
Speaker 2: me and you could be in the same level of criminal,
Speaker 2: but your version of that criminal could be like your
Speaker 2: nuts or you'll use a weapon, you'll shoot someone where
Speaker 2: I would kill someone with my hands. You know. It
Speaker 2: was kind of like that. So you can progress in
Speaker 2: a group so much because you don't need to be hard.
Speaker 2: You don't need to be a murderer, you don't need
Speaker 2: to be a tall man, you don't need to be
Speaker 2: a think if your game you're all the same, yeah,
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? Because if you had
Speaker 2: a specific tool you fight in or your height, your stature,
Speaker 2: your aggression, your your kindness, could talk to someone where
Speaker 2: you couldn't get money off of like you would all
Speaker 2: be that same value. You're just used a different way. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: And brother, I was used. I was used just as
Speaker 2: much as you were used. And it hurts because but.
Speaker 1: What would it what? In what way? Do you feel used?
Speaker 3: Though?
Speaker 1: Like you did you feel used in the way that
Speaker 1: they've used your foot for your ability and for your
Speaker 1: for your what you can do for them? Or do
Speaker 1: you feel used because do you feel like it was
Speaker 1: a waste of years?
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. But at the same time, I can
Speaker 2: say that it's a I can say it's a waste
Speaker 2: of years, but it's curved me to be who I
Speaker 2: am today. And I'm a great man today, do you
Speaker 2: know what I mean? Like I'm a great I do
Speaker 2: a lot today that that showed that that gives real
Speaker 2: respect and strength to my community rather than take it away.
Speaker 2: So it has curved me to be a better person.
Speaker 2: And you know, without that, I probably wouldn't be who
Speaker 2: I am today. So I can thank that as well
Speaker 2: as I can still regret it. Do you know what
Speaker 2: I mean?
Speaker 1: You get but you get real Do you get respect
Speaker 1: off the coppers now? For how how you are? They
Speaker 1: totally different towards now?
Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent, Like don't get me wrong, there's
Speaker 2: still some of them coppers that arrested it that would
Speaker 2: see that I am not a changed person, you know,
Speaker 2: And if say, for instance, someone calls the police from me,
Speaker 2: it wouldn't just be one copper that turns up. There'll
Speaker 2: be a lot, you know, and they'll still treat you out.
Speaker 2: I'm that person. But since since my brother, I was
Speaker 2: such After I lost my brother, I was so sure
Speaker 2: that I was going to find these people that killed
Speaker 2: him that the police knew that I was going to
Speaker 2: kill these guys and it was a race between them
Speaker 2: and me getting them first. I was such hard work
Speaker 2: for the family liaison. Through every crime you get handed
Speaker 2: a liaison officer. If you're a victim of crime, you
Speaker 2: get given a liaison officer. That's an officer that is
Speaker 2: there for you pretty much twenty four to seven. If
Speaker 2: you need to talk, or you have any problems, or
Speaker 2: you have any think that you want to talk to
Speaker 2: the police about, the family liaisons are there for you.
Speaker 2: I was such an issue. I went through four of
Speaker 2: them and they left me. They said, I cannot deal
Speaker 2: with this guy. He's time, unpredictable. I cannot scares me.
Speaker 2: I cannot talk to this guy. And I was rejected
Speaker 2: by them all. And I ended up coming across two
Speaker 2: liaison officers that was that come on my level and
Speaker 2: they were I see that they wanted to help and
Speaker 2: they wasn't a problem. So I accepted them. And it's
Speaker 2: Andy Moore and and oh my god, I've Miranda Miranda.
Speaker 2: I don't know her last name, but these two they
Speaker 2: were the perfect jing and yang for me at that time,
Speaker 2: and they accepted me, and I accepted them to be
Speaker 2: my liaison officers. But I went for them all. They
Speaker 2: were scared. They didn't want me, They didn't want to
Speaker 2: talk to me, they didn't want to handle me. They
Speaker 2: didn't want to come anywhere near me. When I had
Speaker 2: them in there, they wouldn't meet me in a room
Speaker 2: because they felt like I wouldn't let them out because
Speaker 2: they're not listening to what I'm saying. I put the
Speaker 2: fear of God in them. So now after that, because
Speaker 2: I was the hardest person that they'd ever managed within
Speaker 2: the crime aspect, they've got me. I go into the
Speaker 2: police station now and I train the aison officers on
Speaker 2: how to manage people like me. It's a big turnarounds
Speaker 2: it's a massive turnaround, and it's really rewarded for me
Speaker 2: because I still get to keep my brother's legacy alive
Speaker 2: doing things like this. And it's weird because I'm sitting
Speaker 2: in there. I'm sitting in a classroom teaching police officers
Speaker 2: how to manage it's criminals.
Speaker 1: Let's because you've got into your brother. Now, let's let's
Speaker 1: let's talk about the brother. But let's before we talk
Speaker 1: about the situation, talk about your brother in let's let's
Speaker 1: get an insight of your brother before the situation happened.
Speaker 2: My brother had a different dad to me. He didn't
Speaker 2: know who his dad was. My mum was very quiet
Speaker 2: on who his dad was, so that that troubled him
Speaker 2: a lot. You could see that my brother wasn't a
Speaker 2: full brother because even though he was to me, but
Speaker 2: like genetically, you can tell he wasn't. He was a
Speaker 2: little bit mixed race. And I thought that we was
Speaker 2: led to believe that my dad was his dad, and
Speaker 2: my dad accepted that that it was his son. It
Speaker 2: went until we got older that I realized that he wasn't,
Speaker 2: and that's why my dad didn't like him. My dad
Speaker 2: used to punch him up and all sorts. Yeah again,
Speaker 2: I never saw it, but I just saw the aftermath
Speaker 2: of it. But rather really hated my dad for that,
Speaker 2: and really hated him for that and blamed him for
Speaker 2: a lot of a lot of the things. My brother
Speaker 2: ran away from home, he'd spent a fair bit of
Speaker 2: his time. I feel like my brother belonged to the street.
Speaker 2: He belonged. He belonged to the street because that was
Speaker 2: where he felt most most at home. I believe he
Speaker 2: was homeless in London for a choice of He ran away.
Speaker 2: He met his people, and he hung with the people.
Speaker 2: They sofa surfed and they raved, and he was a
Speaker 2: rave head and he just loved life. He was so
Speaker 2: good looking, like he was a real good looking fellow,
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? All the girls loved him.
Speaker 2: He was a proper people person. Everybody loved him. He
Speaker 2: could dance, he could, you know, he could pull any bird,
Speaker 2: he could, you know. He was He played football, and
Speaker 2: he played football so good that he could have actually
Speaker 2: done something with it. And he was a kickboxer as well,
Speaker 2: and he was so good at kickboxing that he could
Speaker 2: have gone somewhere with that as well. But because life
Speaker 2: wasn't steady for him. He found more comfort in the
Speaker 2: street and instead of keeping that within the classroom mentality,
Speaker 2: he took it out to the street. And he was.
Speaker 2: But me and my brother were both very very handy. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we was very handy to know, and we was handy
Speaker 2: for anything. We was game, We was gain gain.
Speaker 1: It was he violent as you will.
Speaker 2: This is what I was just about to say. But
Speaker 2: we were two different people when it comes to violence.
Speaker 2: My brother could really have a fight. He could really
Speaker 2: really handle himself where he but he would go to
Speaker 2: a fight so you're on the floor and then back
Speaker 2: off me. I would continue. I would go past that
Speaker 2: next level. So where he was the calm and collective's
Speaker 2: handled fighter, he was a controlled fighter. I was the
Speaker 2: op total opposite spectrum. I was like, let's buck and
Speaker 2: let's pull them at pieces, you know, like and it
Speaker 2: was and if I come away from it, my head
Speaker 2: would be bad. And the doctors tell me it was
Speaker 2: must that made me feel like that way, because when
Speaker 2: I'd leave, I felt like I'd go over the scenarios
Speaker 2: in my head because I needed to go back and
Speaker 2: do what what I've got going on in my head.
Speaker 2: I wish I'd done more because I needed to show
Speaker 2: these people that I had to put them apart. You know.
Speaker 2: I wanted to you know, I really wanted to teach
Speaker 2: him a lesson where my brother the lesson would be,
Speaker 2: I'd smack you, fall on the floor, I pick you
Speaker 2: back up, shake hands and go. And I admired that
Speaker 2: with him, you know, and you knew where he was.
Speaker 2: With him, I was always the unpredictable brother, and he
Speaker 2: was always the like you knew where you stood with him,
Speaker 2: you know. So he was the like the gentleman, and
Speaker 2: he was a really loved person. And you know, anyone
Speaker 2: that he fought, he dominated, and you know, he was
Speaker 2: like the guy that was down the pub and like say,
Speaker 2: the girls loved him everything. And he had money because
Speaker 2: he was dealing. He was dealing pills and stuff at
Speaker 2: that time, you know, like the Mitsubishi turbos and all
Speaker 2: that and hash like he was, you know, cooking it
Speaker 2: in the microwave so he can cut it up, you know,
Speaker 2: like heat it up so he can cut it because
Speaker 2: it was too hard, you know. And he just always
Speaker 2: looked smart. He had He always used to wear shirts
Speaker 2: like you know, the Ben Sherman shirts or the Roulphaer
Speaker 2: ends shirts. Yeah, the jeans and the Rebot classics. Like
Speaker 2: it was always he was always just just clean. He
Speaker 2: was just he was just a geezer, you know. He
Speaker 2: was a man around town. And then he went to
Speaker 2: jail for driving without a license and an abh. He
Speaker 2: went at Jaw and whilst he was in Jaw he's
Speaker 2: missus left in and because I said to him when
Speaker 2: it was the first time you've done that hard drug
Speaker 2: like crack, you know, and his cellmate, he had a
Speaker 2: cell mate, and his cell mate gave it to him.
Speaker 2: He said, listen, mate, this will help you tonight. My
Speaker 2: brother was upset and he said, my brother said to
Speaker 2: me that he goes. I was quiet. I was, I
Speaker 2: was a mess and he gave me this and said
Speaker 2: I forget it. So I just wanted to forget. And
Speaker 2: he said he'd done his first hit whilst he was
Speaker 2: in prison, and he never looked back from there. He
Speaker 2: spent the rest of his time trying to chase that
Speaker 2: first high again. And that's you know, that's that's that
Speaker 2: was his downfall. You know, to find that you get
Speaker 2: a habit, especially one as aggressive as what he had.
Speaker 2: It started in prison.
Speaker 1: Tell me about the night that happened.
Speaker 2: Were your brother in twenty seventeen, Were you with him now?
Speaker 2: I wish I was. I wish I was. I'd take
Speaker 2: his place any day.
Speaker 1: So to tell me what talk me through it well,
Speaker 1: but like from what you know and what you you
Speaker 1: know what happened that line?
Speaker 2: So I was. I was at work. A friend of mine.
Speaker 2: He always gets me on this because he says that
Speaker 2: he never said it, but I know he did. He's
Speaker 2: here now, actually, and he he had he was happing,
Speaker 2: my friend was having, my best mate was having. He
Speaker 2: was having a bad day, and he he said, he
Speaker 2: got on the bus and he gets on the bus
Speaker 2: home the route where this happen happened, and he was like,
Speaker 2: I was, I had to wait this song for the bus.
Speaker 2: And he'd done a video where the bridge was all
Speaker 2: cornered off and the bus had to go around the
Speaker 2: long way. And he sent me this picture and he
Speaker 2: said he goes like he swore, and I said, it's
Speaker 2: probably another crackhead. And he'd gone home and he had
Speaker 2: to go the long way home, and I was like, cool,
Speaker 2: what's going on there? And I didn't think nothing of it,
Speaker 2: but at the time when it happened, I was tattoing
Speaker 2: a girl who I know in my studio, and at
Speaker 2: the time that it happened, I got a real bad
Speaker 2: shooting paint. Yeah, and I broke out in a sweat,
Speaker 2: and I didn't think nothing of it. I thought I
Speaker 2: was having sort of like sugar drop or something. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and she's like, do you want a minute? And I'm sweating.
Speaker 2: I've come over like weed. Yeah. I didn't know what happened.
Speaker 2: It turned out at the time that i'd come over
Speaker 2: weed was the time that my brother got stabbed. It's like,
Speaker 2: I cannot explain it, and just I just felt it.
Speaker 2: I felt like I felt him get stabbed, and so
Speaker 2: he's gone home and I finished work that day. We
Speaker 2: didn't I didn't hear nothing more about the incident. I
Speaker 2: finished work that day. It has all been cornered off.
Speaker 2: I've gone to my ex's house to pick up my
Speaker 2: daughter because it was it was it was my daughter's night,
Speaker 2: so I got there. I dropped my daughter off. At
Speaker 2: ten o'clock. I'm in the petrol station getting some petrol
Speaker 2: to go back home, and I get a phone call
Speaker 2: from my mum and I'm in that I'm just about
Speaker 2: to pay for the petrol and my mom's screaming down
Speaker 2: the phone, noise I've never heard, and I can't get
Speaker 2: it out of my head. She's like, they've got him,
Speaker 2: they've got him. And I said got what? And I
Speaker 2: said they've got him, They've got him. And I'm like what.
Speaker 2: She's screaming, crying. I'm like, you need to calm down.
Speaker 2: What's going on. Dean's dead? And I was like what.
Speaker 2: She went. I said, what do you mean? I said,
Speaker 2: are you sure it's him? She's like, he's dead, he's dead.
Speaker 2: I said, Mom, he's probably not, like he's not. Yeah,
Speaker 2: she goes, he years. I said, how do you know
Speaker 2: it's him? She said, the police are here, and she's screaming.
Speaker 2: She's like, she's shouting at the coppers, get out of
Speaker 2: my fucking house. Sorry, if you're not allowed to. She's like,
Speaker 2: she's like, get out of my fucking house. And so
Speaker 2: she's shouting. I said, right, hold on, hold on, I'm coming,
Speaker 2: I'm coming, yeah, and I was. I was about to
Speaker 2: run out of the petrol station, but I knew that
Speaker 2: I had to pay. I've paid. The geezers looking at
Speaker 2: me like get off the phone. I'm like, you better
Speaker 2: fuck you know what I mean, get off the phone, like,
Speaker 2: I don't you know. So I'm going to kick off
Speaker 2: with this geezer, but my head's like, I'm I'm dizzy, mate,
Speaker 2: Like I'm all over. I just found out my brother's
Speaker 2: been stabbed. I know what I've got to do now. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but I've got to get to my mum to just
Speaker 2: make sure that this is true. As I've left the
Speaker 2: petrol station, I've wrung my missus up. I told her
Speaker 2: I've rung I've wrung Jamie up, my mate, And I
Speaker 2: said to him, do you know that down the bus
Speaker 2: flop earlier on? I said that was Dean. Dean's dead,
Speaker 2: he's been stabbed. He's like what I was like, yeah, So,
Speaker 2: but I don't know what I'm doing. I don't I
Speaker 2: want to make these calls, but I'm making it. I
Speaker 2: don't know what's happening. I'm making calls when I need
Speaker 2: to get and I'm driving and I'm heading down the motorways.
Speaker 2: So from where I am to where my mum is
Speaker 2: about ten minute drive, ten to fifty minute drive. And
Speaker 2: as I'm driving, I'm driving down this long road heading
Speaker 2: towards the Mertorway and I'm just screaming. I'm screaming. I've
Speaker 2: got the steering wheel, I'm gripping hold of it, like
Speaker 2: I'm trying to snap the steering wheel off whilst I'm driving.
Speaker 2: I'm screaming from the pit of the stomach. Yeah, like
Speaker 2: just screaming. I get lightheaded and I think I'm going
Speaker 2: to pass out. Yeah, And I needed that scream to
Speaker 2: be able to just level myself out. Yeah, because You've
Speaker 2: got to remember, I'm dealing with emotions that I'm not
Speaker 2: being able to handle because I don't cry. And it's
Speaker 2: not that I don't cry, it's just that I can't
Speaker 2: really cry, do you know what I mean? But I
Speaker 2: want to, so I scream, but I'm I'm skipped too,
Speaker 2: So I'm I'm going for through many different scenarios in
Speaker 2: my head of what I need to do, but I'm
Speaker 2: still unsure whether it's true. So I drive to my mum's.
Speaker 2: I get there, there's no police cars outside, there's nothing.
Speaker 2: So I'm like, is this my head playing games with me?
Speaker 2: It was like, is my skits playing up? Yeah? And
Speaker 2: I'll go into the house. And as I get into
Speaker 2: the house, I can I see it, I can hear
Speaker 2: the screaming, houses being smashed to pieces, like my mom
Speaker 2: has gone to town. She's smashed up her whole house.
Speaker 2: There's two coppers standing in there, a man and a woman,
Speaker 2: and they are looking scared. They're like standing there because
Speaker 2: they're waiting for me to turn up. Well, one of
Speaker 2: the coppers that was there is a lady called Pauline.
Speaker 2: She's a lovely woman. Her and her husband used to
Speaker 2: nick me and my brother all the time, so they
Speaker 2: already know yet that what we are. Like, yeah, and
Speaker 2: I've gone in there and they've just they've sit, but
Speaker 2: they've got fear the fit. I can see they were scared. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I've turned up and I've gone, where's my mum?
Speaker 2: They go, she's in there, but I already know where
Speaker 2: she is because I can hear were screaming. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: I said, is it true? And they're looking at me
Speaker 2: and they just didn't They didn't open they didn't open
Speaker 2: their mouth. They just nodded. They was like, I said,
Speaker 2: how do you know? And then he didn't want to
Speaker 2: say nothing. I think she told him don't say nothing
Speaker 2: because he would attack you. And she she said, paul
Speaker 2: I've known you and your brother for a long time.
Speaker 2: It's definitely your brother. I went, how did it happen?
Speaker 2: She went, he's been stabbed. I said, have you got
Speaker 2: who it is yet? She said not yet. I said,
Speaker 2: I'll have them by tomorrow. And I said, Mom, I said,
Speaker 2: I'm going. She come down. My mom said, looked me
Speaker 2: in the eyes and she said, kill them. And my
Speaker 2: sisters come out and they said make sure you get them.
Speaker 2: And I knew that what I had to do. So
Speaker 2: I left the house and I went on a seven
Speaker 2: day man hunt to find these people. And as much
Speaker 2: as I was on the street and as much as
Speaker 2: I had people around me that was game and they
Speaker 2: were able, there was nothing. There was nobody. I was
Speaker 2: on my own, I was on my ones. There was
Speaker 2: nobody for every bad man that I had around me,
Speaker 2: for every person that claimed that they were a somebody
Speaker 2: that they'd have my back no matter what. When you
Speaker 2: when you ask people to come and find four people
Speaker 2: to kill them, there is nobody made because they're not
Speaker 2: looking for someone that's in a pub that you can
Speaker 2: smack and they won't smack you back because they'll pussy
Speaker 2: or whatever. Like. These people are killers and they've killed
Speaker 2: someone that can have it, you know. So the fear
Speaker 2: is there for a lot of people and no one
Speaker 2: coming with me. I'm on my own. I've gone looking
Speaker 2: for these people, and I was on a seventh that
Speaker 2: I didn't sleep, seven days, I didn't eat. I literally
Speaker 2: hunted these people, and one of them by the morning
Speaker 2: I found out who they were. By seven o'clock in
Speaker 2: the morning, I found out who they were, so I
Speaker 2: knew where I had to go. I went through every crack.
Speaker 2: Then I went through every I went for the drug
Speaker 2: line that was attached to this. I went after all
Speaker 2: of this, their shotters. I went after everybody that sold
Speaker 2: crack that was around that line, the county line. I
Speaker 2: targeted everybody, and there was no one that I didn't
Speaker 2: turn over. And you know I didn't. I didn't, I
Speaker 2: didn't take I didn't. I wasn't there to rob them.
Speaker 2: I wasn't there for nothing that. I was there for information.
Speaker 2: That's all I wanted.
Speaker 1: What was that? What was that? What was the reason
Speaker 1: why they stabbed your brother?
Speaker 2: So in court and it was proven they said that
Speaker 2: my brother was there to rob him. Yeah, but a
Speaker 2: guy there's a guy in where my mum and lives
Speaker 2: in Felix, though that my brother used to get stuff
Speaker 2: from all time, and he'd been turned over by the
Speaker 2: police and had all these stuff took off of him,
Speaker 2: so there was nothing my brother couldn't get it from him.
Speaker 2: So my brother had to go to another line to
Speaker 2: go and get So he was a new face to
Speaker 2: a new line. And there's two rival gangs in this town.
Speaker 2: There's J Block and Nino Yeah, and the gang J
Speaker 2: Block robbed this drug line twice and they fought. They
Speaker 2: had a heads up that they were coming back to
Speaker 2: rob him again that day. So because my brother was
Speaker 2: a new face, they thought that he was the decoy
Speaker 2: for the gang to rob him. So they come out
Speaker 2: to teach the gang a lesson, and it wasn't. It
Speaker 2: was my brother and my brother got in a fight
Speaker 2: with the four three guys and there was one guy
Speaker 2: on the phone and three guys on foot, and the
Speaker 2: guy on the phone was telling them what to do,
Speaker 2: and my brother had a fight with the three guys
Speaker 2: and they were on the road on the path on
Speaker 2: the road like zig zagging across the road, and from
Speaker 2: what was told by witnesses, my brother was winning the fight,
Speaker 2: but he was backing off, jumping forward striking, backing off,
Speaker 2: jumping forward, and that's how he was doing it because,
Speaker 2: like I say, my brother could actually have a rally.
Speaker 2: He was a really good fighter. He tripped on the
Speaker 2: curb and went down, and when he went down, one
Speaker 2: of the people come through the middle of him stabbed
Speaker 2: him whist he was on the floor, and then they
Speaker 2: all ran off. My brother got up, went to walk off.
Speaker 2: There was a guy who was a witness there in
Speaker 2: court wound down the window and said, you're right mate.
Speaker 2: My brother stuck his thumb up like he always does.
Speaker 2: Yeah good, and then he went down to the floor
Speaker 2: and it died. That's me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what So what happened? Did you find them or
Speaker 1: did the cops find them first?
Speaker 2: So one of them was found and he ended up
Speaker 2: getting stabbed twice with his own knife. I'm not sure
Speaker 2: who did that, but because the person was never found,
Speaker 2: who did that to him? But he survived, and he survived,
Speaker 2: and you know what, you woudn't even believe it. Maybe
Speaker 2: he looked at him, you woudn't even think, how the
Speaker 2: hell did you survive? Because he was just a bone
Speaker 2: of a man, you know, he was like an old
Speaker 2: bone of a man. But I found out that he'd
Speaker 2: been stabbed and that he'd been took to the hospital,
Speaker 2: and I went up. I went to the hospital to
Speaker 2: finish a job that somebody else said, who they never
Speaker 2: found did in the first place. So I went up
Speaker 2: to the hospital to finish the job and there was
Speaker 2: police everywhere. Mate, like they'd send me up there. They
Speaker 2: rushed me out of the hospital. They said, what are
Speaker 2: you doing up here? I said, oh, come up to
Speaker 2: pick my friend up from the hospital. And they said,
Speaker 2: you've come up to pick your friend And I knew
Speaker 2: he was in a room there and I've gone to
Speaker 2: go into the room and they was like the police
Speaker 2: were there. They rushed me out of the room. They said,
Speaker 2: what are you doing here? I said, I've come to
Speaker 2: pick up my friend. And I said, is this not
Speaker 2: the staff room? They went, you know, this is not
Speaker 2: the staff room. And I was like, I said, who
Speaker 2: have you come to pick up? Honestly, I think my
Speaker 2: brother goes to us. A guy come walking down and goes, right, Paul,
Speaker 2: you're right, I said, this is who I've come to
Speaker 2: pick up, haven't I come to pick you up? And
Speaker 2: I'm looking at him thinking, please just say yes, and
Speaker 2: he said yeah, and I said come and then let's go.
Speaker 2: And they were like, make sure you leave the ground.
Speaker 2: So I was like, of course, I'm leaving the grounds.
Speaker 2: I'm taking him home. And I took him and he said, Paul,
Speaker 2: I'm at work. You can't take me. And I was like,
Speaker 2: you're coming with me. So I kidnapped this geezer. I
Speaker 2: didn't kidnap him. I took him with me. Yeah, I've
Speaker 2: took him with me. He's come with me off his
Speaker 2: own free wheel. He's got in the car. We've gone
Speaker 2: around the back of the hospital. I've dropped him off
Speaker 2: at the back of the hospital and he's gone back
Speaker 2: to work and I've gone off. You know, but I
Speaker 2: really wanted him. I really wanted him. I'd gone up
Speaker 2: to sleep his throat mate, and I would have done
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: But so that's what they don't get. They got life. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So they got him, and then they're the three
Speaker 2: others in tow. They ended up coming in. So I
Speaker 2: guess one said the other one, and you know, you know,
Speaker 2: we're the street of the code is not not there
Speaker 2: when you're looking at a lot of until murder, I guess.
Speaker 2: So they all grass each other up and they ended
Speaker 2: up getting caught, all four of them, and I never
Speaker 2: got a chance to get And there was another one.
Speaker 2: There was two people from my town. There was two
Speaker 2: people from London. The two people from London went back
Speaker 2: to London. The two people from my town I hunted them.
Speaker 2: The second person after that was a guy who was
Speaker 2: on the phone saying the orders from the guy from
Speaker 2: London to the others to do what they got to do.
Speaker 2: And I got his address. I went to his house.
Speaker 2: I tried kicking the door and it ain't coming off.
Speaker 2: He lived in a flat upstairs. There was a driveway
Speaker 2: downstairs with a white van, and there were tinted windows.
Speaker 2: The geezer knew I was coming, and he knew that
Speaker 2: I was hunting them, and he had nowhere to go,
Speaker 2: and he ended up moving from his flat into his
Speaker 2: van that was on the driveway, and I was standing
Speaker 2: on the driveway looking in the tinted windows. So what
Speaker 2: I've done is I turned my back to the street,
Speaker 2: so it allowed them to come out of the house
Speaker 2: to get me from behind, but I was still seeing
Speaker 2: what was behind me. So I used the windows. But
Speaker 2: little did I know whilst I'm on the phone going.
Speaker 2: You fucking told me that he was going to be here.
Speaker 2: I'm here, Where is he? And they go, poor, I
Speaker 2: swear to you, he's there. He's there. He hasn't left
Speaker 2: the house. Yeah, he was on the other side of
Speaker 2: the window. He was in the van. He moved into
Speaker 2: the van. He was literally in front of me. And
Speaker 2: I didn't know that until we were in court. Fucking now,
Speaker 2: I didn't know until we were in court. If I
Speaker 2: had known it, I would have got in the van.
Speaker 2: He would have been I would have been able to
Speaker 2: I would have ruined him. But you know, I'm not
Speaker 2: a murderer. I'm not an ard man. I'm not a psycho.
Speaker 2: I'm just a guy that had a family member that
Speaker 2: was killed, and I would have done anything to make
Speaker 2: it right. Do you know what I mean? You know,
Speaker 2: and any but anybody that loses a sibling would have
Speaker 2: done the same thing. You don't have to be ard
Speaker 2: to do what I was. I went off to do
Speaker 2: what what?
Speaker 1: What goes through your mind now knowing that the they're
Speaker 1: in jail and doing life. Yeah, they've taken your brother.
Speaker 2: Listen, I've been given a task from my family that
Speaker 2: I failed, and I had so much like listen, I
Speaker 2: had so much rage in me that I wanted these
Speaker 2: people that took what I believed was my hero. Do
Speaker 2: you know what I mean away from me? Because I
Speaker 2: never done My brother would have done it. My brother
Speaker 2: would have because that drug world is not my world.
Speaker 2: So I didn't know where to go, so I was
Speaker 2: slow on the uptake. I had to find people to
Speaker 2: feed the information to get me to where I needed
Speaker 2: to be. Where my brother is of that world, he
Speaker 2: would have known exactly where to go, and he would
Speaker 2: have done what I failed to do for me. You
Speaker 2: know That's how I thought at the time. You've got
Speaker 2: to remember, I'm built up. I'm so built up that
Speaker 2: I'm looking for for murderers and I'm going to kill them.
Speaker 2: I Am going to kill these geezes. I'm going to
Speaker 2: make I'm going to make them suffer. I had this
Speaker 2: in me, this rage I'm dealing with, like I say,
Speaker 2: skits and stuff. So I'm already built up and I'm
Speaker 2: made to feel that way automatically genetically. Yeah, So I'm there.
Speaker 2: And when people take that away from you and you've
Speaker 2: got nowhere of letting that out. The only way I
Speaker 2: could let that go and let that be free. It's
Speaker 2: by killing these people and that's what I wanted.
Speaker 1: Do you still have that rage now for the four this?
Speaker 1: Or have you come to I wouldn't say peace with it,
Speaker 1: but are you? Just like camera is a big thing,
Speaker 1: but I think.
Speaker 2: I've learned manifestation when it comes to come, I've learned manifestation.
Speaker 2: Like right now, they're in jail and there's nothing I
Speaker 2: can do, so I'm not at peace, but I'm at
Speaker 2: a level where I know that one day they're going
Speaker 2: to come out, and I know when they come out
Speaker 2: that I don't know how. I don't know how I'm
Speaker 2: going to feel when they come out. I don't know
Speaker 2: whether I know two of them are probably die in
Speaker 2: jowl because they're old. They'll be in their seventies when
Speaker 2: they get released, so they're probably going to die. And
Speaker 2: the other two are from London, but I'll probably never
Speaker 2: even bump into them. But if I did bump into them,
Speaker 2: I don't know, man, I don't know. I don't think
Speaker 2: any amount of recovery or space to freedom that I
Speaker 2: get with learning how to live with myself, would I
Speaker 2: probably be able to walk away from someone that took
Speaker 2: my brother?
Speaker 1: Have you ever tried to go to the jail where
Speaker 1: they are.
Speaker 2: They won't let me. They won't let me because there
Speaker 2: was that lord that was brought in where you can
Speaker 2: come face to face with your video. Yeah, and I've
Speaker 2: asked about it. I've asked about it because I want
Speaker 2: to know why. I want to know the truth. I
Speaker 2: want to know. I want to know how they're thinking.
Speaker 2: Now do they regret it? That's what I want to know.
Speaker 2: You know. Doing the podcast for myself on my own channel,
Speaker 2: I needed a It was therapy for me, you know,
Speaker 2: it was therapy for me. And hearing other people's stories,
Speaker 2: people that forgive, and and you know Michael Emmett, he's
Speaker 2: he does a Alpha God in prison. He does. It's massive,
Speaker 2: it's absolutely huge. And he says forgiveness is the cure
Speaker 2: to your soul. And he says, I need to forgive
Speaker 2: to be able to move on. I don't think I can.
Speaker 2: I really genuinely don't believe I can. So I guess
Speaker 2: I'll never move on from it. But I won't know,
Speaker 2: because you know, if someone if you don't like someone
Speaker 2: and you never see them, they kind of go away,
Speaker 2: but when you see them, everything comes back a bit
Speaker 2: like when I said when I was sixteen, that guy
Speaker 2: come back to me. I was ready for him. But
Speaker 2: when it comes back, it all come back. It's that
Speaker 2: feeling it. I won't know until I either they get
Speaker 2: released or I'll bump into them, but I'd imagine that
Speaker 2: they wouldn't be allowed anywhere near us and the family anyway.
Speaker 2: But if it's London, I got family in London, I'm
Speaker 2: sure i'll bump into them. And I don't know what
Speaker 2: it'll be. I'm going to be in my fifties at
Speaker 2: the time they'll come out anyway, like mid fifties, So
Speaker 2: I need to stay sharp, you know that.
Speaker 1: But your brother's legacy lives on in your in your charity, Yeah,
Speaker 1: in the charity that you do, and also that you
Speaker 1: did the is it the Blue? Tell me about the
Speaker 1: bleak control kids that you got around.
Speaker 2: So I've done a lot of raising awareness in that
Speaker 2: the schools were a bit empty with letting us go
Speaker 2: in because they felt like if they'd let them in,
Speaker 2: then they'd be letting the parents know that there's a
Speaker 2: knife crime problem within that school, and the OFFSTED rating
Speaker 2: would stop them from being funded. So they're not they're
Speaker 2: not free on letting us raise awareness on knife crime.
Speaker 2: You know. So I'm anti anti knife, anti weapon. Now
Speaker 2: do you know where before I lived and lived and
Speaker 2: died for it. But I've been on the other side,
Speaker 2: so I know, you know, so I had to figure
Speaker 2: out ways to try and raise awareness or what we're
Speaker 2: doing globally, not just within my town, like everywhere, because
Speaker 2: I don't want to want to feel it the way
Speaker 2: that I feel because I'm chewed up, you know. So
Speaker 2: we started doing charity events and we were going out
Speaker 2: to car events and basketball events, anything that we could
Speaker 2: do to raise awareness. We've got like the all the
Speaker 2: marquee that says stop and I crime, the leaflets, we've
Speaker 2: done our own leaflets. The police have took them in.
Speaker 2: They love it all, they love what we do. But
Speaker 2: the a few more people got stabbed in our town,
Speaker 2: a couple of kids, a couple of adults, and they died.
Speaker 2: But if there would have been something there that would
Speaker 2: have helped them and they probably some of them would
Speaker 2: probably be alive. Maybe my brother would be alive. I
Speaker 2: don't know. We don't know because it's like there wasn't
Speaker 2: anything there is.
Speaker 1: The knife crime that bad still in England is it is.
Speaker 2: It like, yeah, yeah, it's the chosen now. If people
Speaker 2: are honest for themselves, Yeah, if people are honest with themselves,
Speaker 2: we're the younger generation are a generation that cannot fight.
Speaker 1: Yeah, true, that's very true.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. They have got balls. Yeah, they've got
Speaker 2: no problems with taking your life. Yeah, but they can't
Speaker 2: do it physically, so they have to do it with
Speaker 2: at all. They will stab you before they'll punch out,
Speaker 2: because if they punch it, they know they get hit
Speaker 2: back and they can't take it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know what it is with them.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't get it. Like you can
Speaker 2: punch someone and you just go back and punch them again.
Speaker 2: But you're alive, you can live, you're free, you're out.
Speaker 2: But now someone to stab you with an eighteen inch
Speaker 2: twenty inch knife before they do even punch or slap
Speaker 2: you around the face. It's mental. They cannot fight, but
Speaker 2: they have more balls. That's an very scary thing.
Speaker 1: That's very true. Bro, that's very true. That's where it's
Speaker 1: like over you too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they got they got more balls. We had when
Speaker 2: we were younger, but we had no fear like they.
Speaker 2: We would know that if we was going to stab here,
Speaker 2: there's a possibility that you'll die. Yeah, but if we
Speaker 2: had a punch up, the reputation leaves greater, stronger because
Speaker 2: you're out, you're you know, you're you're you're out, you're free,
Speaker 2: you're alive. Where if you stab someone get reputation, Oh
Speaker 2: you're a murderer, but you're in jail, no one out here.
Speaker 2: You're forgotten and you won't even be allowed to come
Speaker 2: back here to live that. That reputation anyway, just pointless.
Speaker 1: I'll never change. It's because the generation and the generation
Speaker 1: just gets worse and worse and worse.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but we are a product of our environment, and
Speaker 2: we led the path for this to happen, do you
Speaker 2: know what I mean? We would. We was the first,
Speaker 2: and then the people before us were the first, and
Speaker 2: we just get bread more crazier because you know, we're
Speaker 2: a product. This is what we've done to our environment.
Speaker 2: And that's what I mean. I took so much away
Speaker 2: from my environment and where I live that now I
Speaker 2: just give back and it's by far greater rewarding now
Speaker 2: than what itever has been when I was a lunatic.
Speaker 1: Yeah, have you got a lot of support for your
Speaker 1: charity over there like that.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, not financially, not financially from you know, the peers
Speaker 2: that have got endless amounts of money that they can
Speaker 2: give us. The government can give us money. They don't.
Speaker 2: They don't. They don't give us no money. They don't
Speaker 2: give us no money because we're raising awareness that there's
Speaker 2: a problem within the town rather than getting on top
Speaker 2: of it and having a solution with the problem. It's not.
Speaker 2: So what we do is we private fund and we
Speaker 2: do everything we can. We've got a lady in the
Speaker 2: studio that works for us called Amy. She does charity
Speaker 2: days where she does tattoos, raise money. We go out
Speaker 2: and we we ask companies, small businesses to get involved.
Speaker 2: Everyone's involved because people have had enoughing now, people have
Speaker 2: got kids that are going to jail. They're not even
Speaker 2: having a sixteenth birthday out here. They're either dead or
Speaker 2: they're in jail. You know. Can you imagine celebrating your
Speaker 2: sixteenth your sixteenth birthday, your child's sixteenth birthday cemetery? Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, I imagine that. So people have had enough
Speaker 2: and they're getting involved with us, and they see that
Speaker 2: we're doing I thought we was only going to raise
Speaker 2: we managed to buy free kids ourselves. We bought three
Speaker 2: kits ourselves. We got them up and the our town
Speaker 2: went mental. They couldn't believe and they all jumped on board.
Speaker 2: They absolutely was like, thank you so much. You know,
Speaker 2: even the gangs, even the gangs they come across us,
Speaker 2: So thanks for what you're doing because I know I'm
Speaker 2: going to need that. The kids know they're thanking the
Speaker 2: same thank you because they know that they're going to
Speaker 2: need it. We've put a kit in every estate where
Speaker 2: all the kids knock around at the shops. We've got
Speaker 2: thirty three kits out so far and we've got what's
Speaker 2: there another ten. We've got another nine up here ready
Speaker 2: to go out. You know, we're secured Ipswich. We secured
Speaker 2: the couple of towns next to us, and the legacy
Speaker 2: is becoming stronger. They are when this is getting better
Speaker 2: and people are recognizing what we're doing, I get more.
Speaker 2: I get more recognized now for the stuff that we're
Speaker 2: doing with the charity and the emergency BLEA control kits,
Speaker 2: and than I do for the business that I have
Speaker 2: in the town. He used to be the other way around,
Speaker 2: but I just didn't I didn't want to be, Oh,
Speaker 2: you're that guy whose brother was stabbed, and I didn't
Speaker 2: want my brother to be your brother was the one
Speaker 2: that died because he got stabbed. You know. I wanted
Speaker 2: it to be like you see his face, you see
Speaker 2: what we're doing. I wanted him to be back to
Speaker 2: what I remember is in when we were a kid
Speaker 2: and there was a legend and he regrets. I regret
Speaker 2: meeting the women that I've been with, and I mean
Speaker 2: that as well with all my heart, like seriously, other
Speaker 2: than the women's side of things, I regret the pain
Speaker 2: that I caused people when I was at my worst,
Speaker 2: because I know how it feels now where I didn't then.
Speaker 2: It was all ego then, but now it's all pain now,
Speaker 2: So I know, I know. I I regret. I regret
Speaker 2: causing people suffer. I regret all the negative emotions that
Speaker 2: I created around that surrounded me to be able to
Speaker 2: cause people harm, to be able to boost my ego.
Speaker 2: So I regret. I regret that.
Speaker 1: So you you actually think that that that that violent
Speaker 1: you is is no longer there anymore. That's the second
Speaker 1: time I've got you. You you put yourself in that hole.
Speaker 2: Listen, yeah, it's not that. That mean that means is gone. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that that that hot, that hot happening instant is gone.
Speaker 2: Like the violent side of things. If if I get
Speaker 2: like I said to you earlier on, if if I
Speaker 2: was to be if I was to be put into
Speaker 2: a corner, it's there. It's always gonna be there, exactly.
Speaker 2: You never lose that. If you've got that, if you've
Speaker 2: got that animal there and the disease, if it's there,
Speaker 2: you ain't never losing it. It's never gone, you know,
Speaker 2: it never is. But do I want to cause people problems? Now?
Speaker 2: That's gone, that's long gone. I'm definitely not the first
Speaker 2: person to to to be on that like ego trip
Speaker 2: where I have to make sure that you know that
Speaker 2: I'm the better person. That's that's long gone. But if
Speaker 2: you put me into a corner, hello, oh.
Speaker 1: Man, you're just a mate, You're just a teddy bear, come.
Speaker 2: On, exactly exactly, you know. So for onwards and upwards,
Speaker 2: it's just positivity and awareness really and just to carry
Speaker 2: on just being being happy, being and just you know,
Speaker 2: staying away from as much of the negative as I can.
Speaker 2: It's testing, it's testing you know yourself it's harder to
Speaker 2: be good than it is to be bad.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you came on to talk about it.
Speaker 1: And it's you know, as I said, it's not just
Speaker 1: here that'll hear it over here and everyone else. That's
Speaker 1: why I said, if you want to give, you give
Speaker 1: you a charity, a plug and all like that, and
Speaker 1: so it's you know, it gets out there and the charities.
Speaker 2: Be Lucky Anti Crime Foundation my brother always he never
Speaker 2: said goodbye, he always said be Lucky, so it was
Speaker 2: named after him. Really, so it's Be Lucky Anti Crime Foundation.
Speaker 2: The podcast where our raise awareness where people haven't had
Speaker 2: a voice or they've been they've been shut down to
Speaker 2: be able to hear as the Paul Sandsbury Podcast. And
Speaker 2: that's the same across all social media. My sponsors Black
Speaker 2: Saint London, they've got a YouTube channel Gang Up as well,
Speaker 2: Black Saint London TV. But yeah, it's all based around
Speaker 2: what I do. If you want to tattoo Lucky thirteen
Speaker 2: Paul stands by, check it out. Yeah, it's so good.
Speaker 2: I appreciate you.
Speaker 1: Now, bro, it's been a pleasure, man, pleasure. I'm telling
Speaker 1: you friends for life from one telling friends for next
Speaker 1: week on Secrets of the Underworld.
Speaker 3: Okay, this is gonna sound weird, but I never knew
Speaker 3: what a gay man looked like. Gay was forbidden. Okay,
Speaker 3: in the religion gay is so bidden.
Speaker 1: We have Trishy Dishy, the Queen of Sydney's Light Light.
Speaker 3: People that I know for thirty years turn their back
Speaker 3: on me, cannot talk to me, cannot look at me,
Speaker 3: treat me like a lepard. You know that's not That's
Speaker 3: not a religion of loves. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but
Speaker 3: you know, I know in my heart I've done the
Speaker 3: right thing. I don't even drink that much now, but
Speaker 3: I'll have a couple of cocktails and a few wet
Speaker 3: passy shots. And that's if you have a job. You
Speaker 3: just place it add on there shit, and that's how
Speaker 3: it works.
Speaker 2: They work out.
Speaker 3: Course, she can't you anymore?
Speaker 1: Fuck? You know everything I did, man, right.
Speaker 3: You know, like I'm not stupping yet, And people go,
Speaker 3: aren't you old enough? Haven't you done enough? No, I
Speaker 3: haven't done enough. Don't ever asked me that again. I
Speaker 3: get a lot of the sexy girls, you know, working
Speaker 3: girls as well, so mm hmm.