WEBVTT - Patricia Karvelas’ guide to saving democracy

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven AM.

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<v Speaker 1>Australia is heading into a federal election at a time

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<v Speaker 1>when trust in democracy is at a low air. Over

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<v Speaker 1>the past two decades, satisfaction with the political system has collapsed,

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<v Speaker 1>driven by economic inequity, housing stress and the rapid spread

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<v Speaker 1>of disinformation. Political parties are already preparing for a campaign

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<v Speaker 1>that will lean heavily on negative messaging and approach that

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<v Speaker 1>has already proven effective but fuels further division. With trusting

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<v Speaker 1>both politicians and the media in decline, the upcoming election

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<v Speaker 1>will test the resilience of Australia's democracy. Today journalists and

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<v Speaker 1>broadcast at Patricia Valles on the forces undermining democratic trust

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<v Speaker 1>and what it will take to rebuild it. It's Friday,

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<v Speaker 1>March seven Patricia, thanks for coming on seven am.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolute pleasure.

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<v Speaker 1>We hear a lot about trust in democracy declining, but

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<v Speaker 1>what does that actually look like.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, it looks like people becoming increasingly in lots of

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<v Speaker 3>different cohorts, not mixing and having a completely different experience

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<v Speaker 3>of the same country, and of course that leads to

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<v Speaker 3>all sorts of disruption, and I think we're seeing that

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<v Speaker 3>across the world. I don't think you can really separate

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<v Speaker 3>anything from what algorithms are doing and how people have

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<v Speaker 3>entirely different experiences of the information they're receiving, and that

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<v Speaker 3>I think is a really big challenge to democracy. So online,

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, my fifteen year old has an entirely different

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<v Speaker 3>algorithm to me, which is probably healthy. I mean, how

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<v Speaker 3>weird if she had the algorithm of a woman in

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<v Speaker 3>her forties. But she's also constant subjected to videos from

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<v Speaker 3>influences and people who are sharing information that is completely not.

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<v Speaker 2>Based in fact.

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<v Speaker 3>And you know, she has pretty good digital literacy skills.

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<v Speaker 3>She can try and identify that, oh, this doesn't look legit.

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<v Speaker 3>But I worry that we don't have a digital literacy

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<v Speaker 3>level across the community which is deeper, and that a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of this misinformation, these silos that people operate in

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<v Speaker 3>are kind of getting hard baked into the way people

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<v Speaker 3>are understanding the world around them. And I think Australia

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<v Speaker 3>is in a better position than places that are similar across.

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<v Speaker 2>The world, but we are not out of the woods.

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<v Speaker 3>We are, I think, in a really tricky position, and

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<v Speaker 3>unless we double down on working out how to deal

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<v Speaker 3>with it, I think we might end up stuffed, even

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<v Speaker 3>if we end up stuffed a little later than everyone else.

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<v Speaker 1>Stuffed is one word for it. But what do some

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<v Speaker 1>of the stats say when it comes to how people

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<v Speaker 1>are feeling about democracy at the moment.

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<v Speaker 3>So the work that I rely on is from the

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<v Speaker 3>Australian National University who have done these long surveys with

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<v Speaker 3>large cohorts voters.

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<v Speaker 2>Where they track sentiment.

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<v Speaker 3>I've spoken to them at length about what they find here.

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<v Speaker 3>And satisfaction with democracy in Australia varies across age and

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<v Speaker 3>education and income. For instance, those who haven't completed year

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<v Speaker 3>twelve satisfaction with democracy is quite low, and those with

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<v Speaker 3>a degree or a higher qualification are the most satisfied

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<v Speaker 3>with democracy.

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<v Speaker 2>So what does that mean? We've got this big divide.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, we talk a lot about income and inequality,

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<v Speaker 3>but the education divide appears to be growing as one

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<v Speaker 3>of the biggest determinants of trust and democracy.

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<v Speaker 2>And the real threat.

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<v Speaker 3>To democracy is trying to exploit the fears of that

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<v Speaker 3>group because it'll come back to bite the politicians who

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<v Speaker 3>are exploiting it. Because these people are increasingly not trusting democracy.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's talk about that disconnect and that dissatisfaction with politics

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<v Speaker 1>and with democracy. How is it being exploited?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, we've seen around the world it being exploited in

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<v Speaker 3>a very dramatic way, aren't we. You know, the election

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<v Speaker 3>of Donald Trump is clearly part of that we're seeing.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, the rise of the far right in Germany

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<v Speaker 2>is part of that. In Australia, I think we have.

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<v Speaker 3>More center right politics, We operate more in the center.

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<v Speaker 2>You'll notice that, for instance.

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<v Speaker 3>Peter Dutton hasn't chased Donald Trump down every rabbit hole

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<v Speaker 3>of policy. I know somebody to say it's all the same,

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<v Speaker 3>it's Trump l Like I do, think there are differences

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<v Speaker 3>in the policy being offered. But if you look at

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<v Speaker 3>disruption at the moment, all of the surveys show an

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<v Speaker 3>increase in this not major party vote. And look at

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<v Speaker 3>Clive Palmer's new party that is absolutely about exploiting this

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<v Speaker 3>view in the community that the system is stacked against you.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the Trump pet of patriots.

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<v Speaker 4>Billionaire Clive Palmer adopts the Mega manual Australia needs Trump policies,

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<v Speaker 4>launching his third political party, backed by American conservative commentator

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<v Speaker 4>Tucker Carlson.

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<v Speaker 1>You need rich people on your Saite. It's just true.

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<v Speaker 1>You have to have someone with power on your side.

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<v Speaker 3>I think the mainstream parties, particularly labor because they're in government,

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<v Speaker 3>have not engaged enough with the grievance and they're all

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<v Speaker 3>about their headline metrics. Joe Biden did it in the

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<v Speaker 3>US too, Look at our headline metrics. But if people

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<v Speaker 3>feel in their households like they're in a recession, you

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<v Speaker 3>can go on about how we avoided a recession at

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<v Speaker 3>a sort of macro level, but at a household level,

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<v Speaker 3>you try and speak to anyone and see if they

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<v Speaker 3>feel like they've avoided a recession. And so this is

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<v Speaker 3>where politicians that want to exploit that sentiment jump in

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<v Speaker 3>and try and cultivate it for votes. Now, of course

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<v Speaker 3>you might get the vote by making everyone very angry

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<v Speaker 3>all the time and speaking to that anger, but you're

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<v Speaker 3>not actually deeply dealing with the kind of a deeper

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<v Speaker 3>issue that leads to this feeling. It's a sort of

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<v Speaker 3>flip flop. Oh, you change a government, you flip another government.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, disruption, disruption, disruption in terms of long term reform,

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<v Speaker 3>things that will structurally get people ahead. If people feel

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<v Speaker 3>like they're not getting ahead because they're not getting access

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<v Speaker 3>to education and higher incomes.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the thing you need to deal with. That's the

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<v Speaker 2>fundamental thing you need to deal with.

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<v Speaker 1>And I guess this whole environment makes it right for

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<v Speaker 1>disinformation campaigns working to undermine democracy itself and to drive

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<v Speaker 1>that wedge. What have we been seeing recently on that front?

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<v Speaker 3>You know there will be the campaign where you know,

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<v Speaker 3>journalists on the front line are observing the press conferences,

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<v Speaker 3>the macro messages, but under the surface in terms of

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<v Speaker 3>the information the scare campaigns from both sides and other sides,

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<v Speaker 3>the Clive Palmers and so forth that they put out

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<v Speaker 3>officially and unofficially through proxies, which is harder to see

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<v Speaker 3>because different cohorts will be seeing it. So I might

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<v Speaker 3>never see some of this misinformation, right, I might see some.

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<v Speaker 2>Really acutely in one area because.

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<v Speaker 3>They've worked out my demographic and it's and on being exploited.

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<v Speaker 3>But I think we are absolutely set for an election

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<v Speaker 3>with a lot of fear mongering from lots of perspectives,

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<v Speaker 3>can I say? And my big thesis, if anything, is

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<v Speaker 3>that unless we start doing a whole lot more work

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<v Speaker 3>on digital literacy, civics, education and understanding of.

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<v Speaker 2>The way the system works. I think we're cooked.

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<v Speaker 3>I think the education system is leaning in a bit,

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<v Speaker 3>but I still think it's way lower than it needs

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<v Speaker 3>to be.

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<v Speaker 2>And so you've got to be able to make your.

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<v Speaker 3>Citizens be informed and question things rather than take everything

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<v Speaker 3>as fact when indeed it's not.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break, how did politicians and the media regain trust?

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<v Speaker 4>Hi Ruby Jones Here, seven am tells stories that need

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<v Speaker 4>and now we're increasing our coverage. Every Saturday until the

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<v Speaker 4>election will bring you an extra episode to break down

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<v Speaker 4>supporting our work.

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<v Speaker 1>Unfortunately, disinformation and misinformation isn't you, but its impact, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>is bigger because of the way the media landscape has

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<v Speaker 1>changed so much. I'm sure you've seen it unfold before

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<v Speaker 1>your own eyes during your time as a journalist. How

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<v Speaker 1>has that changed your role as a reporter As a

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<v Speaker 1>broadcaster working in public broadcasting, It's made it.

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<v Speaker 2>Harder, much harder.

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<v Speaker 3>But you can't be nostalgic for the good old days

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<v Speaker 3>because it's a it's a waste of your time. But

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<v Speaker 3>because of the disruption, politicians are able to gain the

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<v Speaker 3>system a lot more and avoid scrutiny, and that has

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<v Speaker 3>made my.

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<v Speaker 2>Job a lot harder.

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<v Speaker 3>So if you are a politician that wants to get

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<v Speaker 3>a message out, I've had like really seeing political figures.

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<v Speaker 3>People say to me, why wouldn't I just get on

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<v Speaker 3>TikTok and you know, share whatever I want to say

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<v Speaker 3>uninterrupted by you, get as much reach as I can

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<v Speaker 3>try and amplify it rather than policed by you. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>because that's what journalists do. We push what we think

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<v Speaker 3>is important. They're right there basically like why would we bother?

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<v Speaker 3>Now I am a purist, I will admit it, and

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<v Speaker 3>I think you would bother because it's the right thing

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<v Speaker 3>to do.

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<v Speaker 2>You should subject yourself to scrutiny.

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<v Speaker 3>Also, it's a sign of strength, if I can use

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<v Speaker 3>the sort of muscular language of our times. If you're

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<v Speaker 3>so strong, whoever you are, subject yourself to scrutiny.

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<v Speaker 2>That's how strong you are.

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<v Speaker 3>It's the way to be tested to become a leader

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<v Speaker 3>or a minister or a Prime Minister, opposition leader, whatever

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<v Speaker 3>you are, which is why because I do want to

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<v Speaker 3>acknowledge it. I thought the Prime Minister coming on Q

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<v Speaker 3>and A, which he did for our season launch, was

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<v Speaker 3>a really important message too, which is, you know, I

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<v Speaker 3>will come on take hostile questions because voters have a

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<v Speaker 3>right to ask and not just you know, only speak

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<v Speaker 3>to friendly instagrammers.

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<v Speaker 1>Beyond fronting up like that, what do you think politicians

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<v Speaker 1>can do to rebuild trust with the electorate.

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<v Speaker 3>Politicians need to stop being politicians. And now I don't

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<v Speaker 3>know why they haven't got this yet. Maybe they're so institutionalized,

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<v Speaker 3>or they have been so micromanaged.

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<v Speaker 2>I feel a bit bad for some of them.

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<v Speaker 3>Actually, they've been so media trained within an inch of

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<v Speaker 3>their existence that they are scared to say things. And

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<v Speaker 3>I'll give you an example. I actually don't think it's

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<v Speaker 3>entirely on Albanezi. I think his entire political party must

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<v Speaker 3>take responsibility for the fact that sometimes he sounds very uncertain,

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<v Speaker 3>which has been exploited by Peter.

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<v Speaker 2>Dutton as a sign of lack of strength.

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<v Speaker 3>I believe he sounds uncertain because in the middle of

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<v Speaker 3>every sentence he's thinking about every single word that's about.

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<v Speaker 2>To come out. But you know what Trump does.

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<v Speaker 3>He speaks so much more authentic, and when things go wrong,

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<v Speaker 3>he'll then speak again in the next hour and kind

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<v Speaker 3>of correct or change its direction.

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<v Speaker 2>Our politicians seem to.

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<v Speaker 3>Not be able to do this, Albanesi being the most

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<v Speaker 3>acute version, and I think they need to do that more,

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<v Speaker 3>to be honest, not be Trump, but be able to

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<v Speaker 3>trust in what they're saying, and then like if it

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<v Speaker 3>goes wrong, because it will, Daniel, it will definitely go wrong.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm not saying this is not a risky strategy. There

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<v Speaker 3>are ways to actually address that. What's the benefit of

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<v Speaker 3>it connecting with people authenticity.

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<v Speaker 2>The public isn't trusting them because they're not leveling.

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<v Speaker 3>They're not bringing you into the conversation of the conundrums

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<v Speaker 3>we're facing as a culture. There's no process for politicians

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<v Speaker 3>to go through anymore because they're so worried about consequences,

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<v Speaker 3>and they've all got to break that or the public

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<v Speaker 3>will be more distrustful.

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<v Speaker 1>Final question, Patricia, given the erosion in trust, given the

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<v Speaker 1>benefits in division, how will this shape the upcoming election campaign.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it'll make it a really hard and negative campaign.

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<v Speaker 2>I think the value of.

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<v Speaker 3>The straight shooter is really going to be important. Misrepresentation

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<v Speaker 3>is a problem, so we're going to see everyone misrepresenting.

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<v Speaker 3>We've seen it before from both sides. We've seen the

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<v Speaker 3>death taxes campaign in a previous election by the Coalition

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<v Speaker 3>to scare people from voting for Labor clearly had some impact.

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<v Speaker 2>We've seen many scare.

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<v Speaker 3>That the Coalition was going to privatize and get rid

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<v Speaker 3>of Medicare or whatever the charge was.

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<v Speaker 2>Essentially it wasn't their plan.

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<v Speaker 3>You might not like the Coalition, but you need to

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<v Speaker 3>also be truthful about what their plan is.

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<v Speaker 2>And the truth is. There can be a collection of facts.

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<v Speaker 3>You can say this was Peter Dutton's record as Health Minister, right,

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<v Speaker 3>but he also has just promised to match Labor on

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<v Speaker 3>health spending.

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<v Speaker 2>Both of these things can be true.

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<v Speaker 3>Now if the public doesn't believe that he'll deliver, that

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<v Speaker 3>is vibes and feelings, and they can feel that. But

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<v Speaker 3>in our domain we deal in facts, not supposition, not vibes,

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<v Speaker 3>and we must stick to that. And so back to

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<v Speaker 3>how these campaigns soon to be ugly. We're going to

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<v Speaker 3>distrust each other and so buckle up because I think

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<v Speaker 3>that's what's going to happen well.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you for the work that you do, Patricia, and

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<v Speaker 1>thank you for coming on seven AM.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, Treasurer Jim Chalmers says the

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<v Speaker 1>US has not yet made a decision on whether Australia

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<v Speaker 1>will get an exemption on tariffs. The Treasurer says government

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<v Speaker 1>discussions on the twenty five percent tariffs on aluminum and

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<v Speaker 1>still imports are still continuing and US President Donald Trump

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<v Speaker 1>is threatening from US with obliteration, hasn't return all Israeli

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<v Speaker 1>hostages and Gaza dead or alive. In a social media

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<v Speaker 1>post after meeting with former hostages in Washington, Trump warned

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<v Speaker 1>her master leadership that they were on their last chance

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<v Speaker 1>to leave Gaza. Meanwhile, however, President Trump's Special envoy continues

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<v Speaker 1>to negotiate directly with Hermas, in contradiction to decades of

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<v Speaker 1>previous US policy. I'm Daniel James seven AM. Will be

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<v Speaker 1>back tomorrow and every Saturday until the federal election tomorrow.

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<v Speaker 1>We're taking a deeper look at the biggest voting block

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<v Speaker 1>in Australia and asking what the major parties are doing

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<v Speaker 1>to court the vote of younger Australians. See you then