Speaker 1: From Schwartz Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven AM.
Speaker 1: Australia is heading into a federal election at a time
Speaker 1: when trust in democracy is at a low air. Over
Speaker 1: the past two decades, satisfaction with the political system has collapsed,
Speaker 1: driven by economic inequity, housing stress and the rapid spread
Speaker 1: of disinformation. Political parties are already preparing for a campaign
Speaker 1: that will lean heavily on negative messaging and approach that
Speaker 1: has already proven effective but fuels further division. With trusting
Speaker 1: both politicians and the media in decline, the upcoming election
Speaker 1: will test the resilience of Australia's democracy. Today journalists and
Speaker 1: broadcast at Patricia Valles on the forces undermining democratic trust
Speaker 1: and what it will take to rebuild it. It's Friday,
Speaker 1: March seven Patricia, thanks for coming on seven am.
Speaker 2: Absolute pleasure.
Speaker 1: We hear a lot about trust in democracy declining, but
Speaker 1: what does that actually look like.
Speaker 3: Well, it looks like people becoming increasingly in lots of
Speaker 3: different cohorts, not mixing and having a completely different experience
Speaker 3: of the same country, and of course that leads to
Speaker 3: all sorts of disruption, and I think we're seeing that
Speaker 3: across the world. I don't think you can really separate
Speaker 3: anything from what algorithms are doing and how people have
Speaker 3: entirely different experiences of the information they're receiving, and that
Speaker 3: I think is a really big challenge to democracy. So online,
Speaker 3: I mean, my fifteen year old has an entirely different
Speaker 3: algorithm to me, which is probably healthy. I mean, how
Speaker 3: weird if she had the algorithm of a woman in
Speaker 3: her forties. But she's also constant subjected to videos from
Speaker 3: influences and people who are sharing information that is completely not.
Speaker 2: Based in fact.
Speaker 3: And you know, she has pretty good digital literacy skills.
Speaker 3: She can try and identify that, oh, this doesn't look legit.
Speaker 3: But I worry that we don't have a digital literacy
Speaker 3: level across the community which is deeper, and that a
Speaker 3: lot of this misinformation, these silos that people operate in
Speaker 3: are kind of getting hard baked into the way people
Speaker 3: are understanding the world around them. And I think Australia
Speaker 3: is in a better position than places that are similar across.
Speaker 2: The world, but we are not out of the woods.
Speaker 3: We are, I think, in a really tricky position, and
Speaker 3: unless we double down on working out how to deal
Speaker 3: with it, I think we might end up stuffed, even
Speaker 3: if we end up stuffed a little later than everyone else.
Speaker 1: Stuffed is one word for it. But what do some
Speaker 1: of the stats say when it comes to how people
Speaker 1: are feeling about democracy at the moment.
Speaker 3: So the work that I rely on is from the
Speaker 3: Australian National University who have done these long surveys with
Speaker 3: large cohorts voters.
Speaker 2: Where they track sentiment.
Speaker 3: I've spoken to them at length about what they find here.
Speaker 3: And satisfaction with democracy in Australia varies across age and
Speaker 3: education and income. For instance, those who haven't completed year
Speaker 3: twelve satisfaction with democracy is quite low, and those with
Speaker 3: a degree or a higher qualification are the most satisfied
Speaker 3: with democracy.
Speaker 2: So what does that mean? We've got this big divide.
Speaker 3: You know, we talk a lot about income and inequality,
Speaker 3: but the education divide appears to be growing as one
Speaker 3: of the biggest determinants of trust and democracy.
Speaker 2: And the real threat.
Speaker 3: To democracy is trying to exploit the fears of that
Speaker 3: group because it'll come back to bite the politicians who
Speaker 3: are exploiting it. Because these people are increasingly not trusting democracy.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about that disconnect and that dissatisfaction with politics
Speaker 1: and with democracy. How is it being exploited?
Speaker 3: Well, we've seen around the world it being exploited in
Speaker 3: a very dramatic way, aren't we. You know, the election
Speaker 3: of Donald Trump is clearly part of that we're seeing.
Speaker 2: You know, the rise of the far right in Germany
Speaker 2: is part of that. In Australia, I think we have.
Speaker 3: More center right politics, We operate more in the center.
Speaker 2: You'll notice that, for instance.
Speaker 3: Peter Dutton hasn't chased Donald Trump down every rabbit hole
Speaker 3: of policy. I know somebody to say it's all the same,
Speaker 3: it's Trump l Like I do, think there are differences
Speaker 3: in the policy being offered. But if you look at
Speaker 3: disruption at the moment, all of the surveys show an
Speaker 3: increase in this not major party vote. And look at
Speaker 3: Clive Palmer's new party that is absolutely about exploiting this
Speaker 3: view in the community that the system is stacked against you.
Speaker 2: It's the Trump pet of patriots.
Speaker 4: Billionaire Clive Palmer adopts the Mega manual Australia needs Trump policies,
Speaker 4: launching his third political party, backed by American conservative commentator
Speaker 4: Tucker Carlson.
Speaker 1: You need rich people on your Saite. It's just true.
Speaker 1: You have to have someone with power on your side.
Speaker 3: I think the mainstream parties, particularly labor because they're in government,
Speaker 3: have not engaged enough with the grievance and they're all
Speaker 3: about their headline metrics. Joe Biden did it in the
Speaker 3: US too, Look at our headline metrics. But if people
Speaker 3: feel in their households like they're in a recession, you
Speaker 3: can go on about how we avoided a recession at
Speaker 3: a sort of macro level, but at a household level,
Speaker 3: you try and speak to anyone and see if they
Speaker 3: feel like they've avoided a recession. And so this is
Speaker 3: where politicians that want to exploit that sentiment jump in
Speaker 3: and try and cultivate it for votes. Now, of course
Speaker 3: you might get the vote by making everyone very angry
Speaker 3: all the time and speaking to that anger, but you're
Speaker 3: not actually deeply dealing with the kind of a deeper
Speaker 3: issue that leads to this feeling. It's a sort of
Speaker 3: flip flop. Oh, you change a government, you flip another government.
Speaker 3: You know, disruption, disruption, disruption in terms of long term reform,
Speaker 3: things that will structurally get people ahead. If people feel
Speaker 3: like they're not getting ahead because they're not getting access
Speaker 3: to education and higher incomes.
Speaker 2: That's the thing you need to deal with. That's the
Speaker 2: fundamental thing you need to deal with.
Speaker 1: And I guess this whole environment makes it right for
Speaker 1: disinformation campaigns working to undermine democracy itself and to drive
Speaker 1: that wedge. What have we been seeing recently on that front?
Speaker 3: You know there will be the campaign where you know,
Speaker 3: journalists on the front line are observing the press conferences,
Speaker 3: the macro messages, but under the surface in terms of
Speaker 3: the information the scare campaigns from both sides and other sides,
Speaker 3: the Clive Palmers and so forth that they put out
Speaker 3: officially and unofficially through proxies, which is harder to see
Speaker 3: because different cohorts will be seeing it. So I might
Speaker 3: never see some of this misinformation, right, I might see some.
Speaker 2: Really acutely in one area because.
Speaker 3: They've worked out my demographic and it's and on being exploited.
Speaker 3: But I think we are absolutely set for an election
Speaker 3: with a lot of fear mongering from lots of perspectives,
Speaker 3: can I say? And my big thesis, if anything, is
Speaker 3: that unless we start doing a whole lot more work
Speaker 3: on digital literacy, civics, education and understanding of.
Speaker 2: The way the system works. I think we're cooked.
Speaker 3: I think the education system is leaning in a bit,
Speaker 3: but I still think it's way lower than it needs
Speaker 3: to be.
Speaker 2: And so you've got to be able to make your.
Speaker 3: Citizens be informed and question things rather than take everything
Speaker 3: as fact when indeed it's not.
Speaker 1: After the break, how did politicians and the media regain trust?
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Speaker 1: Unfortunately, disinformation and misinformation isn't you, but its impact, of course,
Speaker 1: is bigger because of the way the media landscape has
Speaker 1: changed so much. I'm sure you've seen it unfold before
Speaker 1: your own eyes during your time as a journalist. How
Speaker 1: has that changed your role as a reporter As a
Speaker 1: broadcaster working in public broadcasting, It's made it.
Speaker 2: Harder, much harder.
Speaker 3: But you can't be nostalgic for the good old days
Speaker 3: because it's a it's a waste of your time. But
Speaker 3: because of the disruption, politicians are able to gain the
Speaker 3: system a lot more and avoid scrutiny, and that has
Speaker 3: made my.
Speaker 2: Job a lot harder.
Speaker 3: So if you are a politician that wants to get
Speaker 3: a message out, I've had like really seeing political figures.
Speaker 3: People say to me, why wouldn't I just get on
Speaker 3: TikTok and you know, share whatever I want to say
Speaker 3: uninterrupted by you, get as much reach as I can
Speaker 3: try and amplify it rather than policed by you. You know,
Speaker 3: because that's what journalists do. We push what we think
Speaker 3: is important. They're right there basically like why would we bother?
Speaker 3: Now I am a purist, I will admit it, and
Speaker 3: I think you would bother because it's the right thing
Speaker 3: to do.
Speaker 2: You should subject yourself to scrutiny.
Speaker 3: Also, it's a sign of strength, if I can use
Speaker 3: the sort of muscular language of our times. If you're
Speaker 3: so strong, whoever you are, subject yourself to scrutiny.
Speaker 2: That's how strong you are.
Speaker 3: It's the way to be tested to become a leader
Speaker 3: or a minister or a Prime Minister, opposition leader, whatever
Speaker 3: you are, which is why because I do want to
Speaker 3: acknowledge it. I thought the Prime Minister coming on Q
Speaker 3: and A, which he did for our season launch, was
Speaker 3: a really important message too, which is, you know, I
Speaker 3: will come on take hostile questions because voters have a
Speaker 3: right to ask and not just you know, only speak
Speaker 3: to friendly instagrammers.
Speaker 1: Beyond fronting up like that, what do you think politicians
Speaker 1: can do to rebuild trust with the electorate.
Speaker 3: Politicians need to stop being politicians. And now I don't
Speaker 3: know why they haven't got this yet. Maybe they're so institutionalized,
Speaker 3: or they have been so micromanaged.
Speaker 2: I feel a bit bad for some of them.
Speaker 3: Actually, they've been so media trained within an inch of
Speaker 3: their existence that they are scared to say things. And
Speaker 3: I'll give you an example. I actually don't think it's
Speaker 3: entirely on Albanezi. I think his entire political party must
Speaker 3: take responsibility for the fact that sometimes he sounds very uncertain,
Speaker 3: which has been exploited by Peter.
Speaker 2: Dutton as a sign of lack of strength.
Speaker 3: I believe he sounds uncertain because in the middle of
Speaker 3: every sentence he's thinking about every single word that's about.
Speaker 2: To come out. But you know what Trump does.
Speaker 3: He speaks so much more authentic, and when things go wrong,
Speaker 3: he'll then speak again in the next hour and kind
Speaker 3: of correct or change its direction.
Speaker 2: Our politicians seem to.
Speaker 3: Not be able to do this, Albanesi being the most
Speaker 3: acute version, and I think they need to do that more,
Speaker 3: to be honest, not be Trump, but be able to
Speaker 3: trust in what they're saying, and then like if it
Speaker 3: goes wrong, because it will, Daniel, it will definitely go wrong.
Speaker 3: I'm not saying this is not a risky strategy. There
Speaker 3: are ways to actually address that. What's the benefit of
Speaker 3: it connecting with people authenticity.
Speaker 2: The public isn't trusting them because they're not leveling.
Speaker 3: They're not bringing you into the conversation of the conundrums
Speaker 3: we're facing as a culture. There's no process for politicians
Speaker 3: to go through anymore because they're so worried about consequences,
Speaker 3: and they've all got to break that or the public
Speaker 3: will be more distrustful.
Speaker 1: Final question, Patricia, given the erosion in trust, given the
Speaker 1: benefits in division, how will this shape the upcoming election campaign.
Speaker 3: I think it'll make it a really hard and negative campaign.
Speaker 2: I think the value of.
Speaker 3: The straight shooter is really going to be important. Misrepresentation
Speaker 3: is a problem, so we're going to see everyone misrepresenting.
Speaker 3: We've seen it before from both sides. We've seen the
Speaker 3: death taxes campaign in a previous election by the Coalition
Speaker 3: to scare people from voting for Labor clearly had some impact.
Speaker 2: We've seen many scare.
Speaker 3: That the Coalition was going to privatize and get rid
Speaker 3: of Medicare or whatever the charge was.
Speaker 2: Essentially it wasn't their plan.
Speaker 3: You might not like the Coalition, but you need to
Speaker 3: also be truthful about what their plan is.
Speaker 2: And the truth is. There can be a collection of facts.
Speaker 3: You can say this was Peter Dutton's record as Health Minister, right,
Speaker 3: but he also has just promised to match Labor on
Speaker 3: health spending.
Speaker 2: Both of these things can be true.
Speaker 3: Now if the public doesn't believe that he'll deliver, that
Speaker 3: is vibes and feelings, and they can feel that. But
Speaker 3: in our domain we deal in facts, not supposition, not vibes,
Speaker 3: and we must stick to that. And so back to
Speaker 3: how these campaigns soon to be ugly. We're going to
Speaker 3: distrust each other and so buckle up because I think
Speaker 3: that's what's going to happen well.
Speaker 1: Thank you for the work that you do, Patricia, and
Speaker 1: thank you for coming on seven AM.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Also in the news today, Treasurer Jim Chalmers says the
Speaker 1: US has not yet made a decision on whether Australia
Speaker 1: will get an exemption on tariffs. The Treasurer says government
Speaker 1: discussions on the twenty five percent tariffs on aluminum and
Speaker 1: still imports are still continuing and US President Donald Trump
Speaker 1: is threatening from US with obliteration, hasn't return all Israeli
Speaker 1: hostages and Gaza dead or alive. In a social media
Speaker 1: post after meeting with former hostages in Washington, Trump warned
Speaker 1: her master leadership that they were on their last chance
Speaker 1: to leave Gaza. Meanwhile, however, President Trump's Special envoy continues
Speaker 1: to negotiate directly with Hermas, in contradiction to decades of
Speaker 1: previous US policy. I'm Daniel James seven AM. Will be
Speaker 1: back tomorrow and every Saturday until the federal election tomorrow.
Speaker 1: We're taking a deeper look at the biggest voting block
Speaker 1: in Australia and asking what the major parties are doing
Speaker 1: to court the vote of younger Australians. See you then